A couple of other considerations when PROCESSING this film in C-41. I say PROCESSING because you are cross-processing and usually that means that the differences are acceptible. However when we are trying to make the results in C-41 typical to what we would expect in a C-41 film, there are some differences, how important? I dunno. C-41 color developing agent is CD-4 and ECN-2 color agent is CD-3. CD-4 is more active than CD-3 which means you might get some overdevelopment with ECN-2 in C-41 all things being equal... C-41 is done at 38 degrees C/ 100 degrees F for the color developer, for 3 minutes 15 seconds. ECN-2 developer is at 41C/106F for 3 minutes flat. Differences in time and temperature will affect that development/overdevelopment issue, however, since there is a trade-off between higher temp/shorter time, it may be offset. Next, the C-41 bleach is 4 1/2 minutes to 6 1/2 minutes at 38C. ECN-2 is 3 minutes flat at 38C. Kodak says for rotary tube development bleach for 6 1/2 minutes..... so there are differences that can affect the outcome when you really want your ECN-2 films to look like properly processed C-41 films. Kodak says this in their C-41 manual: The amount of cyan, magenta, and yellow dye formed depends on exposure and developer activity. Temperature, time, replenishment rate, replenisher concentration, agitation, and the rate at which solutions diffuse into the emulsion affect developer activity. Time, temperature, and agitation affect the diffusion rate. With too much developer activity, too much dye forms and the density values will plot higher than normal. With too little activity, not enough dye forms and the density values will plot lower than normal. I imagine that holds true in similar ways for ECN-2 Hope that helps!
Definitely my new favorite film channel. Thanks for the concise and detailed descriptions of your experiences! Picked up some Silbersalz ECN-2 film. Waiting for the chems before I shoot it.
thanks for the support! yea, i am actually trying now to develop with ra4 chems, since i have alot of it currently, because i print often. definitely will get ecn-2 chems soon as well
Hey man, why didn’t you shoot it in your Bronica with your 135W back? I think that cinematic aspect ratio would be a great fit for a motion picture stock
I understand you probably wont be doing it in C-41 again, but it made me wonder if you could possibly get around some of the cool colors, by using a warming filter? Who knows? Looking forward to the ECN-2 processed film for sure.
yea that's def a consideration. i don't have any filters yet though. also, i'm more interested in the emulsion chemistry and how it is affected by the two methods.
Interesting take! I've had some pretty great results with 250d in C41! Especially when scanned on a Fuji Frontier. But then sometimes it has missed the mark, and generally has a cyan cast.
yea definitely! it seems like c41 really isn't ideal for this film, even if it you can get some good looks. ive been doing alot of research about ecn2 and it definitely is the way to get the best results. i am very excited to try it out myself soon
The ECN-2 should be more accurate than C-41 processing on Vision 3 films, but I have no idea how much different. I suspect that the particular scanner and its settings would have more impact on color, density or contrast skew from what you think is normal. These adjustments are the price you pay for scanning. An interesting issue which I think you are going to test soon is how 250D negatives print on RA-4 process wet prints. I am considering launching into a mix of Vision 3/RA-4 prints. My concern is that Vision 3 negative color films use certain color dyes which are designed to be compatible with their matching positive print (movie) film, but those dyes are different from the dyes used in C-41/RA-4. So the big question: Will cross application result in color shifts? If so, can those color shifts be fully or partially corrected in the normal RA-4 printing process? I'm happy to let you take the lead on that investigation.
Thanks for commenting. I actually just finished printing my first batch of 250d negatives which were dev’d with ECN2 chems) and I have mixed results. Launching a video Tuesday! I’ll send you the link soon 😀
So Ribsy, 2 years later, Vision 2 250d or 500t? I would like your advice here. I need something versatile with not too much grain. Thanks in advance man
Love your content! I know you have already moved over to ECN-2 dev already but I have found a few minor tweaks fix the the contrast issue. Given the film is designed to be digitised for hollywood Ive have found my tiiff files hold alot of shadow details that feels much more like Im editing a digital camera DNG file. So I expose with more sympathy to the mid tones and sometimes even rate the film at ISO 400. The shadow detail is still there which I find amazing given its film yet the highlights are not blown. When developing, I dev at 27C which takes longer but further reduces contrast. IMO its given me results that look more like ECN-2 . The colour cast is still there but is very easy to correct.
Sorry it's been a while but I thought I might point out one potential issue. Ecn film needs a stop bath. If you have to use c41 you might get a bit better result with an immediate stop bath. Doesn't seem like much but pH balances and conditioning takes advantage of such things and it's not a huge step for 40 seconds. Hope that helps.
haha lightroom definitely helps with the color cast, but that's about it. i want to be able to use all of what this film has to offer and i guess that mean's processing it prescribed way.
Dude!! You know what I’ve never seen? 5213 (200T) in C41!! Shoot it at 200 ASA and it should be sweet. You’ve got to get rid of the entire remjet. C41 isn’t ideal but it should still be good.
i didn't mind some of original images so wouldn't have been put off by the film. You're comparing what you developed to those other photographers results...that's never a good thing :)
hey thanks for watching 😊 - i am comparing things like tonality, color, and dynamic range on the basis of film processing choice, as opposed to anything skill or style related. thus, i think a comparison is ok.
Definitely don't write 250D off! It's got some of the best latitude I've seen, here is some 250d in ECN2 with my friends XPAN....... www.flickr.com/photos/135812873@N06/shares/026uRF
A couple of other considerations when PROCESSING this film in C-41. I say PROCESSING because you are cross-processing and usually that means that the differences are acceptible. However when we are trying to make the results in C-41 typical to what we would expect in a C-41 film, there are some differences, how important? I dunno. C-41 color developing agent is CD-4 and ECN-2 color agent is CD-3. CD-4 is more active than CD-3 which means you might get some overdevelopment with ECN-2 in C-41 all things being equal... C-41 is done at 38 degrees C/ 100 degrees F for the color developer, for 3 minutes 15 seconds. ECN-2 developer is at 41C/106F for 3 minutes flat. Differences in time and temperature will affect that development/overdevelopment issue, however, since there is a trade-off between higher temp/shorter time, it may be offset. Next, the C-41 bleach is 4 1/2 minutes to 6 1/2 minutes at 38C. ECN-2 is 3 minutes flat at 38C. Kodak says for rotary tube development bleach for 6 1/2 minutes..... so there are differences that can affect the outcome when you really want your ECN-2 films to look like properly processed C-41 films. Kodak says this in their C-41 manual:
The amount of cyan, magenta, and yellow dye formed
depends on exposure and developer activity. Temperature,
time, replenishment rate, replenisher concentration,
agitation, and the rate at which solutions diffuse into the
emulsion affect developer activity. Time, temperature, and
agitation affect the diffusion rate. With too much developer
activity, too much dye forms and the density values will plot
higher than normal. With too little activity, not enough dye
forms and the density values will plot lower than normal.
I imagine that holds true in similar ways for ECN-2 Hope that helps!
thanks for the info!
Definitely my new favorite film channel. Thanks for the concise and detailed descriptions of your experiences! Picked up some Silbersalz ECN-2 film. Waiting for the chems before I shoot it.
thanks for the support! yea, i am actually trying now to develop with ra4 chems, since i have alot of it currently, because i print often. definitely will get ecn-2 chems soon as well
Hey man, why didn’t you shoot it in your Bronica with your 135W back? I think that cinematic aspect ratio would be a great fit for a motion picture stock
haha good call. i was actually considering that for my next go around with this film. this first try was strictly a first impressions test 😊
Great video man, I was really disappointed with 500t which I was putting in c41. I just bought an ecn2 kit on Etsy so looking forward to trying it..
oh fantastic! glad i'm not the only one suffering 😂. looking forward to proper results
I would like to see comparison vs ECN-2 processed roll
yup! me too haha. i will be making another video very soon
I’m wondering if you used a warm up filter - 80B would it make it less cyan in the c41 process🤔
hey! potentially. i'm worried about what c41 does to the emulsion chemistry though. i think i'm chasing purity 😂😂😂
I understand you probably wont be doing it in C-41 again, but it made me wonder if you could possibly get around some of the cool colors, by using a warming filter? Who knows? Looking forward to the ECN-2 processed film for sure.
I have just suggested that!- great minds think alike!🤣
yea that's def a consideration. i don't have any filters yet though. also, i'm more interested in the emulsion chemistry and how it is affected by the two methods.
hahaha some telekinesis happening here
@@Resgerr me too
Interesting take! I've had some pretty great results with 250d in C41! Especially when scanned on a Fuji Frontier. But then sometimes it has missed the mark, and generally has a cyan cast.
yea definitely! it seems like c41 really isn't ideal for this film, even if it you can get some good looks. ive been doing alot of research about ecn2 and it definitely is the way to get the best results. i am very excited to try it out myself soon
The ECN-2 should be more accurate than C-41 processing on Vision 3 films, but I have no idea how much different. I suspect that the particular scanner and its settings would have more impact on color, density or contrast skew from what you think is normal. These adjustments are the price you pay for scanning. An interesting issue which I think you are going to test soon is how 250D negatives print on RA-4 process wet prints. I am considering launching into a mix of Vision 3/RA-4 prints. My concern is that Vision 3 negative color films use certain color dyes which are designed to be compatible with their matching positive print (movie) film, but those dyes are different from the dyes used in C-41/RA-4. So the big question: Will cross application result in color shifts? If so, can those color shifts be fully or partially corrected in the normal RA-4 printing process? I'm happy to let you take the lead on that investigation.
Thanks for commenting. I actually just finished printing my first batch of 250d negatives which were dev’d with ECN2 chems) and I have mixed results. Launching a video Tuesday! I’ll send you the link soon 😀
I recently picked up a few rolls, looking forward to testing them in true ECN-2
You should also expose this at 100. I would recommend checking out silbersabz film and their recommendations
same! gonna give it a few more shots
yea i think over exposing might be good ... but not it developing c41. going to do some exposure bracketing next time around when i do ecn2
So Ribsy, 2 years later, Vision 2 250d or 500t? I would like your advice here. I need something versatile with not too much grain. Thanks in advance man
Def do it. Shoot 250D and get it processed ECN2 by a lab you trust
I think I will give this film a shot at some point. Can't hurt to experiment for sure. Cool video, Thanks dude
yea def give it a try - the price is right! even cross processed could be worth it, but i can't help but want the "real" thing
If you don’t want to invest in the chems Silverpan lab in then UK do the ECN2 chems
good call! i think i am going to buy chems tho -- i have a feeling i will really like this film, dev'd properly
@@ribsy fair comment cant wait to see it done proper then i have some i still need to shoot
if you wanted to develop another roll in c41, wouldnt some sort of warming filter fix that cyan tint?
i think a warming filter could help. but at this point i think i will stick to properly developing in ECN2. the results are markedly better
Love your content!
I know you have already moved over to ECN-2 dev already but I have found a few minor tweaks fix the the contrast issue.
Given the film is designed to be digitised for hollywood Ive have found my tiiff files hold alot of shadow details that feels much more like Im editing a digital camera DNG file. So I expose with more sympathy to the mid tones and sometimes even rate the film at ISO 400. The shadow detail is still there which I find amazing given its film yet the highlights are not blown.
When developing, I dev at 27C which takes longer but further reduces contrast. IMO its given me results that look more like ECN-2 . The colour cast is still there but is very easy to correct.
Hey! That’s really interesting feedback. I am shooting some 250d now so I may try that.
@@ribsy Did you get anything out of the feedback? I'm interested in the results.
Hi mate very interesting info on this one with 27 degrees, what dev time you have for this? Thanks!
This channel is badly underappreciated... Keep the good work man!
thanks for the support 😊
Sorry it's been a while but I thought I might point out one potential issue. Ecn film needs a stop bath. If you have to use c41 you might get a bit better result with an immediate stop bath. Doesn't seem like much but pH balances and conditioning takes advantage of such things and it's not a huge step for 40 seconds. Hope that helps.
i think my opinions have evolved since then 😅
I‘ve developed about 10 various kodak vision 1,2,3 and fuji cine films and I've had great color accurate results in c 41
I’ve gotten decent results over time too. Scanning was the cause of my initial dissatisfaction
Gutted about the colours. Looking forwards to the results with the proper chemicals.
yea man. no sweat tho - i REALLY want to like this film haha. gonna give it a few more attempts with proper chems
Gotta love lightroom to save the day with post process...great vid as always my g
haha lightroom definitely helps with the color cast, but that's about it. i want to be able to use all of what this film has to offer and i guess that mean's processing it prescribed way.
Dude!! You know what I’ve never seen? 5213 (200T) in C41!! Shoot it at 200 ASA and it should be sweet. You’ve got to get rid of the entire remjet. C41 isn’t ideal but it should still be good.
yea i haven't messed with 200t yet. thats on my list. i have ecn2 chemicals now, so i will never look back 😊
i didn't mind some of original images so wouldn't have been put off by the film. You're comparing what you developed to those other photographers results...that's never a good thing :)
hey thanks for watching 😊 - i am comparing things like tonality, color, and dynamic range on the basis of film processing choice, as opposed to anything skill or style related. thus, i think a comparison is ok.
@@ribsy well you just cost me £25 as i bought 3 rolls of the stuff :)
Hahaha glad I could inspire you 😂
QWD Labs - Get the real stuff, makes a big difference
yup! got a kit on the way 😊
@@ribsy Bellini also makes a kit, more economical at 3L, but I like QWD Labs for the easy to follow process.
Yup! I’m gonna try both! Got a few rolls to dev
ECN-2 developers is way better than C-41, in fact you can even get better using ECN-2 developer for the "normal" film
very interesting. i haven't tried developing any C41 film with ecn2 chems
keep hearing we should talk .... i blame Vince Perry jr.
haha he's a great minded individual. just checked out your channel and managed to binge for like 30 min 😊 good stuff. you based in NYC? i miss homeeee
Doing Film Things 😂😂 I work in NYC but live in NJ.
Dammmmn im early
haha
Definitely don't write 250D off! It's got some of the best latitude I've seen, here is some 250d in ECN2 with my friends XPAN....... www.flickr.com/photos/135812873@N06/shares/026uRF
Hey - definitely won’t be writing it off! Will be developing my next batch with proper ecn2 chemicals. Excited to see the results