No no, this is fine. Because Bruce Timm should catch flak for this like a zeppelin over London, FOREVER. Let him NEVER live this down. Because if we let him think we've forgotten, he might get it in his head to "get it right this time."
It's so ironic for me that u made this video when u did, because I've been re-watching Batman:TAS, and I was literally thinking about how wrong this was yesterday because I was watching the Roxy Rocket episode, and Batgirl said some wild shit like "Once she has a taste of u, there's no going back"(amazing what they put in kids cartoons back then), and even Batman is lookin' at her like "Dafuq?", that should have been the end of it, but nope he smashes her anyway, in hindsight it's crazy how much they actually hinted at the ship too, also are u gonna do a video on why u hate Young Justice Season 4?
"He's known her since she was either 13 or 15" I believe the dialogue implies that the last time he SAW HER was when she was either 13 or 15. He could have actually met her much earlier than that, indeed, somehow worsening this whole disaster of a ship.
TAS Batman met Jim Gordon and Leslie Thompson the night his parents were killed. They were his anchors even as a child. That's why Bruce Wayne has his own relationship with Commisioner Gordon. Think on that time table and feel free to vomit!
@@nyxdrawsthings6847 How does that change things? It's still a 5000 age gap. So if old Bruce met Barbara when she was an adult then it's fine since they're both adults? 😂😂
So I'm an outsider to the canon mostly only familiar with the DCAU, Teen Titans, and some of the more recent animated movies, so help me get this shit straight here. Dick Grayson is Nightwing, the one who bangs Batgirl and Starfire. Jason Todd is the one who came back as Red Hood. Tim Drake is the really young one who the Joker kidnapped and fucked up with Cadmus tech in the Batman Beyond movie. And Damian is the little fucker who Talia popped out. Did I get that all right?
The absolute worst part of trying to get into Gotham based media. I still go for Catwoman and Batman because they are at least messed up together in the right ways for me.
They flirt CONSTANTLY, either straight up or subtly.. I also swear there was like an episode or something where Catwoman & Batman got together but I could've imagined it.
Catwoman and batman work better because Bruce is always chasing crime while Selina is a kleptomaniac who can't help but commit crimes. They complete one another from a superficial point, and really play on the whole good guy seduced by bad guy with a shit ton of sexual tension.
There is so much more about their relationship then just a super hero and a thief. Catwoman by Ed brubaker is one of my favorite interpretations of catwoman and even goes into detail of her relationship with Batman. Highly recommend.
An even worse thing that I just worked out, so in the comic Barbara is roughly 7 weeks pregnant, and dick has been around for 3, which means taking away the week in between she would’ve been 3 weeks pregnant during the joker death scene. But the thing to note, is that Tim was kidnapped 3 weeks ago because Batman and batgirl weren’t on patrol with him, this horrible thing might’ve happened to Tim because Batman and Barbara couldn’t keep it in their pants
That is so horrible it somehow loops into being kinda funny. Like, was this timeline made like that on purpose?? did the writers just really wanna piss people off?
Wow didn’t even realize that…amazing how this ship manages to make one of the most selfish and narcissistic versions of Batman ever and makes Barbara look like she has no purpose but to be a ginger fetish fuel
@GabreyaThe original TAS Batman is a good character. I blame The New Adventures of Batman to be the downfall of a lot of those characters. Characters lost a lot of visual appeal, Batman was more like the Frank Miller depiction, and Batgirl is just the girl.
@ihavenoideaatall7381 agree. i liked the TAS batman not LOVE but like. I started the new adventures and yeeeaaahhh now poison ivy one of my Favorite character is now a 14 yo activist same with Barbara only its with the bats. its was a mess and his it what we get years later after that mess. i think TAS batman is new of the only good bat carton shows the other is Batman Beyond.
Fun Fact: There is an alternate universe where Batman takes over the world and Jim Gordon evades his cameras for weeks, figures out his secret identity, tracks him down, beats the shit out of him, strips Wayne industries of all of its assets, than throws him in jail. This is what i envision whenever i see this ship.
@TheGlassesPro In DC there are infinite paralel universes so Yes. If you’re asking “Is it in the comics” the answer is also yes. Look up “Batman the grim knight”. And you should find more info there.
@@PirvateerKurei This also unironically proves that Gordon is more competent than all of batmans villains or the entire justice league combined. The Grim Knight (the evil version of batman in the story) is also claimed to be the most inteligent of the dark knights. Even smarter than the Batman who laughs. Main universe Gordon said that he would have done the exact same thing if Batman became evil.
Imagine the influence if they'd actually ran this story arc early on in a way where she had a crush, and Batman politely turns her down, explains why this isn't going to be a thing, and they work through that in a way where they can continue to fight crime together, and she moves on appropriately. Would have given young men an example of both being able to set boundaries, and also having some conscious awareness of problematic situations to avoid.
Agreed. Imagine the impact if Bruce had to awkwardly reject her and explain why they could never be a thing. It would show growth and solidify their work/platonic relationship, a temporary heartbroken Barbara who now has to get over her problematic crush, and just reaffirm the fans respect for Batman as the adult.
@@LisaNaniOfficial honestly, the killing joke would be made more impactful if the final moments he has with barbara are an angry lecture on why they shouldn't and will never be together. like, he chews out his protégé and the next day she's paralyzed. it'd definitely hit harder than "oh no, the girl batman just banged can't walk now :("
A:"what's wrong with being a sidekick? B:"Oracle isn't a detective, she's mission control, the one who provides information from online and hacking skills! C:"Oracle is a retcon, made by someone else. Can you imagine the outrage, if she straight up quit crime fighting instead?
@@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon Nah i definitely could see why it was seen as misogynistic before, because back then there was a phenomenon called “fridging” where the women in comic books have horrible things happen to them to further the men’s development. Oracle was a good way to turn it around though turning it into actual development for batgirl
I was in a theater for Killing joke. When they started making out the entire theater was literally shouting their disapproval. One guy behind us shouted "No! He's old enough to be your daddy!" An apprentice having feelings for an older, mentor figure is far from original, and it can be grounds for some interesting drama and character development. However almost universally having the mentor act on or even have the same feelings is considered wrong.
During the story of drakengard the protagonist has a sister who has a crush on him... Thing is he really does not and near the end she kills herself because he doesnt correspond to her love That game is really dark and fucked up but i think it really does well when covering dark subjects The director said in an interview that he did this because he hated the sister tsundere troope from animes and manga
@@heroeus8173 Yeah but he is also her mentor, father figure, dad's friend, and knew her when he was well into adulthood and she was a minor, no CallMeCarson type shit either.
@@vergilsonofsparda3019 father figure? If barbara needed bruce as a father figure it would mean that gordon did a bad duty as dad which i think isn't the case People tend to be shock by it Because they imagine bat girl being a little girl She was a woman when she f*ck with bruce And that's that My only issue would be that bruce knew that sleeping with barbara would hurt grayson But at any moment Bruce didn't pursue barbara People just tend to idolise batman too much
i remember reading somewhere that when the killing joke movie premiered at comic con went so bad one of the writers tried to pick a fight with someone in the audience because a joker cosplayer asked why they would downgrade barbara’s role even further to motivate bruce
@@Ellie_The_GameDev I just imagined a real-life version of when the Joker finds out Red Skull is a Nazi, but replacing Red Skull with the writer, all in Hamil's voice.
Barbara: "You know, I used to have this huge crush on Batman." Bruce: "I had assumed at the time. That disappeared once you became Batgirl and learned you'd known me since middle school?" Barbara: "Yeah. All that crap disappeared pretty much instantly."
Everytime I managed to forget about this ship, I'm unfortunately reminded of it. Seriously, it's one of those things that I try to pretend isn't cannon in the DCAU cause I REALLY hate it.
@Xana do you remember that one scene he had with Cheetah oh my god this dude basically kissed a furry. Literally the only female character who makes sense for Batman to end up with is Catwoman like the way their relationship was portrayed in the Hush movie like that is really good but this Batgirl and Batman stuff no ew gross get that out and throw it in the sun.
Okay, honest question: How is Batgirl paralyzed AT ALL when she shares a universe with magicians and cyborgs? The justice league can give a guy a robot arm, but fixing a spine is too much?
Fuck the robot arm, Victor Stone was turned to fucking chili-meat and he was not only saved but turned into one of the world's most capable superheroes.
@@thegreygoblin5165 Yeah, but that was turned from "my dad is good at robotics" into "new gods tech does weird shit" a while ago (but after killing joke, if I'm not mistaken). But there are so many heroes and villains that have some form of magic or robotics that could have been used to heal Barbs. John Constantine can bully God into healing his cancer (again) but Barb has to sit in a wheelchair for a few years? I mean, I don't mind the representation, but it makes no sense in universe!
Apparently in some versions she has a spinal implant that allows her to walk, but she has to rest it pretty often so she only uses it as Batgirl. Still, doesn't really make sense, but at least it's something.
I actually saw The Killing Joke in a packed theater when it first came out. It was dead silent when *that* scene came up. You hear a pin drop, everyone was so collectively confused and horrified.
@QueenJuliRose yea for context batgirl/Barbara is literally Dick Grayson/Nightwing/Robin…..main girlfriend other than his “teen titans” counterparts…..she’s the girl you’d think Dick would end up with when it was all over….so two things i hate was yes what they did with her here in “the killing joke” is criminal….aswell as the “Arkham series” of games were they make her “Tim Drakes” love interest i hate that almost as much as the killing joke bs
I feel the same way when Catwoman comes onto Dick either in the comics or any of the animated stuff. The idea of my Dad's ex-girlfriend flirting with me when in some continuities she known me since I was a kid gives me the heebie-jeebies
The thing is, Babs is also pretty close to Bruce's age. With Catwoman you have the awkwardness of Earth-2. There, Dick started seeing her as a mother figure pretty much during her first appearance. Considering his numerous attempts to murder the Joker were foiled by Batman in another story in that same issue...(What can I say? Dude has professional pride, and the Joker is an insult to circus performers everywhere.)
@@parrotenthusiast1181 Let's kick this up a notch: Black Canary saw him in the shower once and complimented his appearance. So, for those keeping track, she's basically Speedy's mother. In fact, Nightwing is the godfather to Speedy's child. So yeah, this whole thing is getting a bit too Game of Thrones. But then there's how Chuck Dixon forgets Barbara's age when retconning her and Dick as having dated when they were younger, but remembers her age (and her Ph.D.) when writing her teaching Cassandra Cain how to read.
@@dusty5412 It’s creepy, but it makes a little more sense, since people can fantasize/lust for people who are older then them (specially at a young adult age), still creepy of course, but a lot more understandable than the old guy reciprocating the feelings.
@@dusty5412 So you mean to tell me that you've never, ever, at some point in your life, had a crush on a teacher, babysitter, or anyone of a significant age difference?
@@dusty5412 truth be told, there is young girls who are into older man, in the end the wrong one will always be the responsible and mature adult who reciprocate those feelings
Thank you, this sufficiently covers why no one wants Bruce Timm's trash ship and never will. Why go for this abomination of a pairing when Bruce and Selina have been there since the beginning? While there may be a conflict of interests between them, they are at least equals that actually love each other and the success or failure of their romance doesn't utterly destroy the family Bruce has left.
Yeah actually good point cause it seems like in DCAU Bruce Timm was desperately tying make this dumpster fire of a ship work instead just sticking to Catwoman the actual love interest of Batman
They could have even explored Talia & Batman's relationship (the one where they were married & had Damian together, before Grant Morrison came in with the horrible r*pe stuff). Anyway, the tension between Batman & Talia or even Batman & Catwoman is enough to fuel a whole series. Literally no one needed Batman/Batgirl.
I think that the batgirl and Batman ship is just not possible without just completely changing Batman himself and the family dynamic they would have to probably make sure one robin never has a relationship with her and probably have to remove the connection to commissioner Gordon in order for it to be somewhat ok. I would say that Batman and Wonder Woman would be better or catwoman. Even if it is flawed.
@@gameoveror7970 To be honest, I think Bruce/Barbara could work (even if quite lame and uninteresting: I am not too puritan on that side), but the setup was atrocious. It felt like a writer's fetish. I was more invested with Bruce/Selina. Bruce seems interested to her (as she is his wife in his ideal dream in _Perchance to Dream_ episode), while knowing she is Catwoman. Yet, Catwoman flirts with Batman, knowing all too well it was a ruse to escape. So Bruce is unsure about Selina's true feeling about him. I think it was a really good and a better story to explore.
let's not forget that in some cases, Batman's known her since she was a young child. And there's everything creepy about getting with a person you know when they were a child.
@@OneGaurdian In college is still kinda weird cause most people are still transitioning into adulthood at that point. But knowing someone as a literal child and then pursing them once they’re legal is a whole different level of creepy and wrong.
@@TheSMR1969 Well that’s your opinion. Turning 18 doesn’t make you a grown adult and a lot of people in college are still transitioning. So personally, if a grown adult meets the person while they’re barely legal and not even old enough to drink, I say it’s still creepy.
Bit of a correction Barbara was't temporarily paralyzed she was fully paralyzed but she got a spinal implant to become Batgirl again but recently became oracle again and now she's only being Batgirl when the batfamily absolutely needs her she's staying as oracle to give her spinal implant a break
@@Kris-wo4pj Stephanie is back she's just not going by Batgirl although right now there's a series with Barbara, Cassandra, and Stephanie called "batgirls"
@@skeletor4436 ah OK I've been out of the comics side for a while. Last I checked the editor refused to let Stephanie not be dead since he hated her or something even tho everyone else wanted her back as Robin or spoiler. Then again that was around the same time they refused to let batwoman get married in comics and refused to let batman finally marry catwoman after yrs of dating and flirting at all.
@@Kris-wo4pj Bruce and Selina are pretty much married they just never went through the whole marriage process and it does really suck batwoman was't allowed to get married
So much for representing disability among the superhero community. I think the reason why she was portrayed as Oracle for far longer than Batgirl is her struggle and rebirth as something far greater than an imitation of Batman. But of course some people wants the cake and eat it too. And who can blame them for being so blind that they would miss the point of a crippled standing firm above her stereotype. And perhaps even above Batgirl.
Apart from how fucked up this pairing is on an ethical level, it makes no sense for Batman's character. This is a guy who, while in a healthy relationship with Silver St Cloud (who's his own goddamn age), literally wept at his parents' graves because he felt like he was betraying them by being happy - that he deserved to be miserable for the rest of his life as penance for letting his parents die. He's so duty bound and guilt-ridden that he can't have a normal relationship without feeling like he's doing something wrong, and yet this is the guy who breaks so many boundaries to sleep with a girl that he only seems half-heartedly interested in at best?
Batman totally comes off as the type who would chew out an older hero for sleeping with their apprentice, not the type who would DO it. This ship kills me, it's just so out of character.
No it isn't you sheltered prude. Probably got some headcanon going on that people who hate this usually have, which makes up Bruce being a father figure to Babara.
I remember in a video interview, Bruce Timm talked about the relationship as: "I know it's wrong, but that's why I love it." I love your work, even your risque stuff.. but NO, (BONK!) JUST NO!
As someone with a limited understanding of the DC mythos, I have to ask, why? Why this one? This ship feels like a smut fanfiction you'd find on some weird sect of the internet, not something that should be taken seriously as an actual part of Batman lore. Or alternatively, it sounds like an exaggerated plot thread for a fake drama show or a dating drama parody.
I think one of my biggest issues is that we don't see enough of Batman's pov here. I want to see some Bruce Wayne slamming his fists down yelling: "why did I do that!?" I want to see Catwoman and Dr. Harley Quinn rake him across the coals. I want to see Him Gordon go ballistic. I want to see Alfred lose his sh_t. Why are Babs and Tim the main ones getting all the consequences?
Long story short: Batman knew his best friend’s daughter when she was 13 maybe 14, now she’s 19 maybe early 20’s and they’re banging. Lego Batman kinda fixed this having Batman not knowing Barbra. The party for Gordon’s retirement was the first time he looked at her, the presentation for her entrance said she had been in the police force for awhile so she’s probably in her mid-20’s. Regardless, they killed the ship by having them remain as just friends, in their words (but not entirely exact) “just good friends who just so happens to be a female.”
For this Batgirl and Batman will always be disgusting in my eyes. What sort of idiot decided to fuck his son's love interest? Even if she was an ex is still weird... Also she's nasty as well for playing with both of em
I agree that the problem is Batman returning the feelings. Girls wanting older men is pretty normal, my father was 10 years older than my mum. If both parties are adults who cares about the age difference? It is the "raising her" part that even makes this a blip on my radar.
It’s interesting because my mom was 10 years older than my dad and I never bat an eye to that until I got older. There was still a wierd dynamic in that too no different than the older man with younger woman relationship. Idk I guess it’s about maturity? But then again I wouldn’t date someone so far away from my age.
@@heroeus8173 Guess raising as a superhero. Learning lessons from him by observation, leading by example. The commissioner can prepare her for the life of a police woman, not a superhero. Or are you suggesting Bats had zero impact on her growth?
@@ThePariahDark well in that case you can admire someone without having intimate feelings for them And it is very known that women in general like men with power It's like you are saying you never seen men that have authority and that teach women And those women dream to sleep with them We can't really call that raising If jim gordon was dead And by that connection Bruce took care of barbara since a child as a duty Then it would be questionable if they came to this type of relationship My only real problem is that grayson and barbara was dating at that time But barbara just monkey branch to batman And bruce knew that And he did say to grayson when both are coming to hands "That barbara make her choice" But i still understand Bruce on this one on a realistic purpose At any moment bruce never let barbara come to close Except that very night We idealise batman too much At the end of the night He has to put the cowl out and let Bruce wayne the place
The biggest problem i have with Barbara is writers will just pass her around the batfam. Across all media she has been with/shipped with: Dick Grayson, Bruce Wayne, Jason Todd, Luke Fox, and Tim Drake. Its fucking weird
Exacly. this might sound sexist of me, but, they just do that because she's a woman. you'll never see a love story between Jason and Dick for example, but with Barb it's completelly different. instead of having a sibling-like relationship with the other Robins or having Batman as a father-like figure (like EVERYONE ELSE in the batfamilly) she's just used as everyone's love interest.
@@hillboi5049 its not sexist of you to point out the truth of whats happening. Babs is the most popular female character associated with the batfam, so it happens with her more than the other ladies
The writers literally just treat her like the designated love interest, it's so frustrating, creepy and WEIRD, especially given what SC said: it feels weirdly incestuous. Like, Dick, Jason & Tim are generally considered siblings, and Bruce their surrogate dad. What actual person would date every branch on that tree? The writers don't seem to care how weird it would be especially for Babs & it's so frustrating. Op I'm literally not saying anything new, I'm sorry, I'm literally just so incensed by how fucking weird the batman writers can get
@@hillboi5049 It definetly is pretty gross and sexist.But its really nothing new for dc writers I mean these are the same people who wrote stories about Batman and Nightwing getting raped
Barbra in so many depictions is great, she really is. She is this intelligent, calm, level headed woman who is like a mentor to so much of the bat family. This makes it all the sadder when writers diminish her to just a side character there for sexual drama. DC had such a good character that is great disability representation (still think they shouldn’t have changed it) but the fact so many people know Barbra for this just makes me sad.
My favorite batman fangirl depiction of her is in Harley Quinn (that's not all she is of course she's badass and intelligent and calm but fangirl is also a part of her character also i want to point out she doesn't lust after him she just geeks out like you would meeting your favorite celebrity)
I think it would've been cool if Batgirl was just in a wheelchair from the start in the reboot, unrelated to Joker, so then people don't have to connect it in some way with that particular story and we still get the rep. She could've been insisting she's going to be Batgirl anyway and Batman is like "OMG no" and then she'd go "you ablist; aren't you the smartest detective ever? Help me figure this out" and Batman's only response is a silent glare, sweating bullets internally, and Robin backs her up, and Batman glares at him and he wants to refuse again but he's wired to problem-solve so Batman is pondering how to assist her superhero lifestyle while his utter intent is to stop her from getting killed at all cost. And that's how we get Oracle I guess. Bat-fam scheme and plot to make her dreams happen together.
You just shouldn’t depict women in media like this, especially in the West it always just goes one way and if it doesn’t go that way in the show it’ll go sexual on the internet, you Westerners really need to wake up
@@alphaslayerzex3573 no we should just stop watching and consuming media like this, let’s face it we aren’t 10 anymore and the shit that’s starting to be shown and promoted is just outright harmful for everyone
I honestly love the plot line of Barbra getting paralyzed and becoming Oracle, but the way she’s reduced to a love interest really takes away from the strong female disabled character that she could be. And it shows in fandom as well, I see people constantly calling her a slut because she is so often depicted as just a love interest for the men in the comic. And it makes this other, often immature people believe that they should hold these standards to real women. Despite what some people believe, media does reflect in real life, so it’s important for people like the writers of these female characters to write them like people instead of objects. Idk that’s just an ick for me tho
Bruce Timm was really into this ship, and honestly, I didn’t even pick up on it until they spelled it out in Batman Beyond. And then it festered in my brain for years. An ugly patch of mold on the DCAU that I decided wasn’t worth thinking about. Then the Killing Joke prologue happened, and they took something that already wasn’t good, and made it the grossest possible version it could be. And hooboy, were Timm and crew super defensive about it when effectively nobody liked it.
I always saw the cavalcade in Beyond as "every woman Batman loves, even platonically". It's the only way I could square Babs being there with the rest. He loves her like a daughter, end of.
@@arellajardin8188 I am so happy I don't remember that. It's icky, and I don't know how Bruce Timm doesn't get that. (Hail Mary here: Barbera was messing with Terry. Like how people accept River Song's idea of "You leave the Tardis brakes on" as gospel, when I always saw it as a prank.)
@@TheDanishGuyReviews Not only that, but in the Ra's al Ghul episode Barbara was part of Bruce's personal slideshow on his birthday alongside Zatanna, Catwoman, and Lois. In fact, Barbara was the last girl on there(and Bruce had multiple pictures of her and lingered on her photos versus 1 picture of the rest) and while he was still going through his Barbara album, Talia walks in saying, "I know you loved her, but I cannot believe you didn't save a picture of me as well." Plus the debatably canon continuation comic series made an even bigger mess, with the reason Nightwing left and doesn't show up in Batman Beyond was that Barbara cheated on him and got pregnant with Bruce's child while she was Dick's fiance... and then got a miscarriage after being punched while crimefighting.
Honestly the fact that they tried making this canon in some half hearted attempt to make the killing joke seem more tragic in the movies is lowkey insulting. Like the crippling of batman own sidekick and the daughter of one of his greatest friends wouldn’t be harmful enough.
Not to mention that Bruce always blames himself when something happens to them. Like Barbara said in Arkham Knight "We are fighting with you, not for you" which is something Bruce doesn't seem to understand or doesn't want to understand.
My parents had a 15 age gap. They didn’t start dating until my mom was 20, but my dad met her when she was 17 and he was 32. So I can say with experience that you’re absolutely correct and that it is an incredibly unhealthy and very creepy dynamic. Obviously there’s a huge difference between dating someone significantly older than you when you’re established in adulthood (ex being in your 30s and dating someone significantly older), and actively preying on young people that won’t know any better. As the child of this type of situation, I can tell you it doesn’t end well.
Glad youre self aware and learning from their miatakes. Most people just go MY 42 YO DAD WAS IN LOVE WITH MY 16 YO MOM AND THATS FINE AND HEALTHY BC I NEED IT TO BE
Oh thank goodness someone who's in this position can agree. I hate ships with stuff like a 25 year difference, where each members' partner is younger than their kid/older than their own father. No amount of therapy makes that cool, lmbo.
@@spaghetto9836 Oh yeah. Believe me, the power imbalance is not lost on the kids of said type of relationship, too. I might not have known how to put it when I was a little kid, but I could definitely see that there was definitely something off.
In the Lego Batman movie, Batman is attracted to Batgirl, but in that case she was an adult woman he didn't know when she was a child and she didn't reciprocate feelings anyways. That's literally the only acceptable way for this to go.
I disagree. Age doesn't matter as long as everyone is legal. How can this be 2022 and people still discriminate against against age gap relationships?!! As long as it isn't illegal and both adults are consenting it's no one's business. Hasn't society learned anything from oh I don't know being incredibly hateful and discriminatory towards the LGBTQIA+ community for centuries? What society SHOULD have learned, but obviously failed to, is who other people love and other people's relationships are none of your business, it does not affect you in any way, keep your opinions to yourself as long as everyone is above the age of consent.
@@WhitneyDahlin Look up grooming, that's what's wrong here. Age differences are fine, but he knew her as a Kid and was effectively a second father figure to her. Helping raise a kid, only to fuck them the moment they are legal is not something anybody should support. I get your point, but there is a big difference between hate toward the LGBTQIA+ community and being disguested by Grooming
@@WhitneyDahlin A 60 year old met a 15 year old, waited for him to turn 18, and then started dating him. Is that not creepy to you? If it's not, Houston we have a problem- Do not compare that to the LGBTQ+ please, we will not be associated with creepy relationships and grooming behaviors, we get enough people trying to claim we're all Ped0s, we don't need you trying to actually make us support them like wtf-
Yeah, Batman and Batgirl never should've been a thing in my opinion and don't get me started on my biggest gripe with it, that biggest gripe being that Bruce/Batman and Barbara/Batgirl know each other through James Gordon Bab's father and one of Batman's closest allies, if Jim ever found out about them secret identity wise there's no telling how he would've reacted i mean i know he's found out Bruce's and Bab's secret identities in some incarnations but still.
You're right, Jim is the one that they are hurting the most in their so called "romance" because if he found out that Batman was banging his daughter he would feel betrayed by both of them. In fact Jim's biggest question of all for Bruce and Babs would be "How could you two do this?"
@@baymaxinarmor4133 Let's take into account in the most continuities Barbara dates his SON DICK which makes it more unappealing especially for those who love the dynamic of Batgirl/Oracle and Nightwing
This ship is creepy when you consider that Barbara and Dick are around the same age in the Dcau and since Batman first met Dick when he was a kid and was Batman for years there’s a good chance he might have interacted with Barbara when she was a kid
He usually meets Dick in his 2nd year as Batman, and Bruce is between 27/30, and Dick is usually 13. Either way, it's just fucking wrong on so many levels. I get carried away with these characters though, and I'm about ready to just sell my collection and stop fucking with comics altogether lol
@@aaronlisle3773 Post-Crisis it was his third year and Dick was 10. Pre-Crisis, first year and Dick was 8. The oldest before Flashpoint was 12, and that was Frank Miller's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder. (Note that germane to this, Thrillkiller is an exception, but it's an exception to a lot of things. For starters, Barbara is Dick's mentor. There, Dick is 16 and Barbara is 20, and Bruce is 22. Dick thinks Bruce is a creeper, and Barbara shuts him up by pointing out the obvious flaw with his logic. The flaw this entire fandom has continuously committed for over 25 years now.) They met Babs MANY years later, in every continuity save for the New 52 (and whatever the hell Dixon and subsequent batwriters write about once Dixon felt the reactionary urge to wallpaper over people interpreting his Birds of Prey as a sapphic romance). Babs was already a PhD, and was at least 25. Where DickBabs starts to cancer up this place is, they want to keep Barbara's past (while constantly retconning Dick's past, and frankly stealing elements from one story and applying it to another, so it's told he was on a mission to Tamaran during The Killing Joke; he wasn't, and in fact, Barbara saw Dick and Jason shortly before, like it's a frame in a comic published a week before, but speaking of Jason, he was on a mission to a planet called New Cronus, related to Donna Troy, when Jason died) while also making Barbara 14 when she was shot, which also makes her six years younger than Dick, and a minor, and I'd say it makes me wonder why she's leading the Suicide Squad, but Danny Chase had top-level security clearance at the State Department.
Keep in mind they arent that far apart. In the final season of the animated series they directly say bruce is 30 at the end of that series. ANd its implied dick was 10 when he met bruce. So he would of been 18 or 19. 10 isnt that huge of a gap these days. I know many couples with 10+ difference.
It’s not creepy. You guys are just overly judgmental. Batman risks his life every day. If he wants to have a moment of joy with another consenting adult, I think you can put down your pitchforks and stop the victim parade for 5 minutes.
The Lego Batman movie was the only one that could have pulled off this ship and they still didn't do it. And honestly, I prefer Lego Batman with Queen Watevra Wa'Nabi.
batgirl was definitely A LOT more mature, and even looks, feels, sounds, and acts closer to bruce's age, also when bruce saw barbara it was implied that it was as if it was his first time to see her, like a total stranger (if im not mistaken), so no grooming or stuff like that can be applied
I don't care about most age gaps, but I hate how when media puts in huge age gaps, the younger one is always fresh out of High School. Can we maybe get an age-gap relationship where the younger one has at least some sort of experience in adulthood?
that's is why I don't like age gaps. most of the fictional couples that I see with age gaps are between a young 18-20 and an adult over 35. This reminds me of those men who waited for the teenager to come of age so they could make out. It's so disgusting.
@@algumacoisa8349 Just asking. Are age gaps where the younger one is in their mid to late 20s and the older is in their 30s still problematic? They had more experience in adulthood so there's less of a power thing going on.
@@giantpinkcat I don't think so, but it depends. Did they meet when the younger one was already an adult? Because there is a difference between two people who met when they were adults (27-37) and people who met when the younger one was 17 and the older one was 27. There maybe grooming
I physically recoiled when I saw *that* scene, it ruined the rewatchability of The Killing Joke. It was out of nowhere and it gave me the creeps. The Batman I know would have scolded her and chewed her out for making those advances and "grounded" her from going on patrol with him. Bruce isn't some impulsive horn dog who jumps at the opportunity every time a woman makes a move on him. It was SO out of character for the both of them. Batman is like a godfather to Barbara it's just wrong and it crossed the line. Bruce would've had a serious talk with her about boundaries and the importance of not crossing those lines, which we all know that's something he's big on. 🙄
When I tell you how fast I closed my laptop and had a mental breakdown from the visceral reaction I had when that scene came on is honestly hilarious, I did finish the movie to see if it was even good in the first place, and it wasn't even good so I was highly disappointed that I had to go through constant cringing when seeing them or barabara together to get a whole bunch of fucking nothing
He also appeared to have a thing for redheads. andrea Beaumont, roxy rocket, hawkgirl, Superman's wife in the adaptation of "the man who has everything" was changed from blonde to red hair and barbara gordon, lana from superman and Veronica Vreeland. If they aren't so important that it would become a main character ( except Barbara) he likes to paint his women red.
Robins' cursed: 1) Ex's getting banged by his father (that beat down was for Tim Drake). 2) Killed by Bender (as Joker), and then brought back by plot armor juice. 3) Hornii girl and Killer of Robins' having intimate relationships while he was tortured for weeks. 4) Roasted by DC Thanos.
Reminder that back when Infinite Crisis was being written they were _seriously_ considering killing him off and it was gonna stick. Right as Jason Todd was being brought back, no less! Thankfully it didn't happen but the damage was done and he got his whole town nuked.
The one thing I hated in Batman beyond was when Bruce was looking at old pictures of his flings and had multiple Batgirl ones… ugh. That’s his best friend’s daughter
also in the comic of beyond didn't he and Barbara sleep together while she was dating dick then got pregnant and that was the reason dick leaves for good and i think he forgave Barbara cuz she apologize but Bruce never did
I don't know guys he could be thinking fondly with those old pictures of past flings, with Batgirl in the new jet, in the kitchen, back of an alley, several rooms in his house, getting in and out of different costumes. I am surprised it didn't stop and show Bruce with a big smile on his face reminiscing. You have to think positively.
She's not Superman's daughter or Batman's adopted daughter. (Hell, Commissioner Gordon still refers to Dick as "the kid".) Yanno? The sheer amount of fail here is enough to make me ship them out of spite.
The whole Bruce and Barbara thing always bothered me and it’s really not even cause of the age gap cause there are (like you said) great relationships out there with bigger gaps. The HUGE issue is Bruce getting with his sons girlfriend which is just all kinds of gross. It really does make you wonder how long Bruce had these feelings and what was going through his head while he was with his sons ex like did he feel dirty (like he should have) the entire time?? Not to mention what Barbara was thinking
It’s so bad if it happened in the mainline continuity it would fracture the entire bat family even the secondary members like Cassandra Cain or duke would have issues with it
@@a.c.slater7989 I 100% agree, honestly I guess the upside is that all of the weird versions of characters that we do see are considered alternate versions of them therefore not messing up the main continuity too much XD
@@a.c.slater7989 I can imagine Tim and Steph just yelling “What The Fuck, Bruce” at the top of their lungs. I can’t imagine any member taking Bruce’s side, except for maybe Damian. But even then…
I have to be honest, I don't understand why people hate Babs as Oracle. I understand it gets annoying when every comic book follows that same story, but I don't understand why it's seen as such an awful thing. I love Oracle, especially in Young Justice. I love that she was still a massive part of the team, even if she's in a wheelchair. I do have to agree that BatmanxBatgirl is nasty though.
I’ve been saying that the Killing Joke prologue could have worked if they treated her like one of the Robins. How would you get Dick, or Tim to the edge of the “abyss?” Cuz I doubt it would be by banging Batman.
So, I saw "The Killing Joke" because it was available to view while I was on a plane. I also went in relatively-blind because I never read the comic and it had been the better part of a decade since I had seen B:TAS or BB. I "Noped" right the hell out, only coming back to it after watching "The Lego Batman Movie" as a palette-cleanser. ---- That said, I now have a morbid curiosity to have, like, the same story retold with one of the Robins. Hell, make it the Nolan-Verse where the obvious-stand-in-for-Robin is maybe not as old as Bale's Bruce but still a full-fledged adult. Bruce comes back to Gotham, gets with the detective, idk plot things happen, tragedy...profit!
Literally think of her as Jason in Death of The Family did he bang Batman? Nope. Was he a active participant on his death, close to the abyss and the whole think was catastrophic even though he wasn't truly the protagonist of if? Yes. Would it've possible to do it if he had banged Bruce? Absolutly not. So is Barbara
@@wholethedogsout880 No, its just that Arkahm City makes you feel like a damn lion on a rock above herd of gazelle with a gothic symphony choir playing in the skies overhead XD Go play it if you haven't!
@@wholethedogsout880 essentially stealth segments in the Arkham games are called ‘predator segments’ you know like the whole fear thing that Batman goes for. I think the skill tree that focuses on stealth is also called the predator tree but I might just be making that up. I need to replay Arkham City, been too long.
I agree with you one hundred percent! Whats more I never liked what they did to Barbara in the comics, paralyzing her and reducing her to being Batman's hacker/computer expert.
to be honest I'd be all in for a weird, alternate universe psychedellic version of Batman and Joker that's fucked up and they have gay sex but they're not even gay. Like they just have a toxic relationship that is encouraged by each one's particular brand of mental illness and they don't even like each other, they just feel like they need to have this will they won't they relationship of crime and violence. A very psychological and dark exploration of the human psyche and Batman as a character
@@Doctor_Straing_Strange you're a little late several adaption has Joker as being canonly bisexual and gay, even the telltale Batman game played with the idea where this Joker has feelings for Bruce Wayne. We already had Batman as a communist villain, as someone who abuses Catwoman, or someone who has sex with Batgirl...elders story can play with the different ideas
@@exchangediary968 oh I know, but I wasn't talking about like a healthy relationship, I'm talking about some fucked up, unhealthy, psychological horror shit
The Lego Batman Movie is the one place where I wouldn't have a problem with the pairing, but you still wouldn't believe how big my grin got when he specifically called her his "platonic female coworker"
@@kamadotanjiro3176 From what I could find Barbra is in early 20s and Batman, idk Alfred references him being like 51 in that one joke and a site (idk if it’s a relevant one) said early 30s
"rule no.1, dating within the team always ends in catastrophe."-batman in the justice league show to wonder woman on a gargoyle. Bruce Tim "i'ma pretend i didn't see that."
The killing joke could have done w/o the ship. Not only does it feel like it sexualizes Batgirl by having all the non-familial males around em have some sexual framing (flirting criminal, Borderline rapist, abusive, controlling one night stand, and that one gay guy who’s only role is to be an ear for ranting and give advice) The killing Joke’s focus on Batgirl’s love life was unecessary and confusing as to what the theme or message of the movie was. It starts off as “Batgirl and Batman have a strained relationship”, and ends with, “Batman and Joker are both crazy”
@@10tailedbijuu i dunno, exploring batman’s psyche ?, as in making more parallels to how e’s also a bit looney. Anything but batgirl being hit on by anyone not gay. Or like, replace her with cat woman, and the drama makes a lot more sense. .
I agree with you. I wish they portrayed Batgirl as Batman's daughter in the killing Joke. They could've focused on a different side of their relationship like : - He's always trying to protect her from the dangers of Gotham, making her frustrated and feeling like he doesn't trust her enough to become her own hero. - She's trying to become more than "the Batgirl" to him and tries to prove herself as an equal, making him distressed at the idea of loosing another child. Portraying Batman as a mentor, and father figure loosing the equivalent of a daughter would've been much more sadder and impactful ( while being less creepy) . It also echoes with Joker's loss of his family and child.
I don't really get shipping Batman with any of his partners/allies. I mean, the guy's discipline incarnate. If he thought he had an untoward connection with someone in his unit, he'd take steps to make sure he never acts on it. The only reason it works with Catwoman is because, when he isn't bamboozled by her, he's always going to put the cuffs on her or at least take back what she stole.
@Milomondo actually I think most of the Batfamily is either indifferent or is cool with her, like Dick has actively endorsed it when they are together.
Id say one of his healthiest romantic relationships (before tom king and animated movies like Sin Of Batman) Talia and him had a pretty good relationship
Oracle was not just superhero tech support; her code name is Barbara's persona. She was the all-knowing, all-seeing criminal investigator that superheroes look to in order to get answers when they couldn't find one. Previously being Batgirl and mentored by Batman, she's also a high-level tactician and strategist who is also competent in martial arts despite her disability. I've never read her return as Batgirl but I assume her recovery was due to her physical training and advance spinal surgery which most likely she discovered herself. The way they added her story as filler In the Killing Joke movie was disrespectful and gross. Belittling this character's story arc.
Completely agree. I was a fan of Barbara's Batgirl pretty much since the 70s when I was watching reruns of the Adam West Batman series, growing up. I always liked her as Batgirl and read whatever I could with her in it. I bought Killing Joke when it came out and was a teen at the time. I wasn't mad I went with the flow. I was curious about her as Oracle and really liked her in that role. Then when Killing Joke was animated, I heard about the scene and wasn't happy about it. It wasn't necessary and felt like forced filler. They should have just left it out. This is the first time I've heard about her being pregnant with his kid. Glad they ditched that with a miscarriage. However that whole thing should have never happened. I liked her and Dick as a couple, and found it really random and odd that she married someone else in Batman Beyond.
I’ve honestly not read much into Batgirl’s backstory (apart from of course the basics as knew her most of all from The Batman series), especially in the long run. Only actually more relatively recently as in about two years ago, first discovered that she actually did eventually become paralysed. Let alone apparently, after a while, returning as Batgirl after getting perhaps treatment. Where exactly does all of this go down in any of the comic book stories? I’ve heard that apparently it happened quite a while ago now in terms of its graphic novel coverage!? Think I’ve read a little bit from something like the very end of the 90s or the early 2000s of something.
@@danielwhyatt3278 it was an ongoing arc that ran close to a decade between the killing Joke into late 2000's. Reduced down to a few minutes in a movie that the story doesn't even belong in. It was about a hero's journey that she chose to take on, having no tragedy or trauma making her into a hero. Instead the movie made her some kind of hot head who isn't in control of her emotions looking for validation from a mentor. Bruce and Barbara in the books were always kindred spirits that were a bond similar to brother and sister. She earned his respect as he did to her. To taint this relationship as one of lust for each other undermines both of their character.
Her return as Batgirl was “New 52 happened”. It didn’t completely retcon Killing Joke, she just got a “super-surgery”, something she actively declined for years because it wasn’t fair to the average person in the old continuity. It carried over when Rebirth happened and restored most of the old continuity.
@@amystreasuresdesign the Adam West Batman ironically had more respect to the Batgirl character than the animated killing joke did and that show was a campy satire of Batman.
idk why people always seem to hate on alfred and batman's relationship and act like it's just something temporary. his butler is not just some person to batman....he's literally the one who took care of him when his parents died. there's even been comic books where he literally breaks down when something happens to alfred and some au comics have him even creating a tony-stark like ai to act like alfred when the guy gets killed.
Alfred is Bruce's father idgaf. He's his adopted/surrogate father (not blood-related) sure but who cares? Blood doesnt make family. Same sentiment with Bruce and his children!
Barbara was a far better character as "Oracle" than she ever was running around in a costume. Her Oracle persona was beloved by her fans and many wish they would have never retconned her into being able to walk again. There are way too many "bat people" running around and punching criminals these days. How many heroes do we have that are disabled? Her continuing on the fight despite the trauma she faced that put her in a wheelchair showed real strength.
@@k.kharles11037 considering Futaba's codename is Navi in japanese, localization changing it to Oracle in the west is likely a Barbara reference. It helps that they're both redheads
After playing the Arkham games I decided I wanted to get into Batman. So I watched the DCAU. Fantastic of course, but anytime the Commissioner Barbara would hint they had a relationship I'd internally squirm. Then I heard the Killing Joke was a great Batman story so I watched the movie, and not only was it a bad movie, but I got to see BatgirlxBatman done again, so I just assumed this was a canonical and common depiction of the two. It wasn't until I actually did some digging that I found out that it's not a common shipping, it's just something one writer keeps slipping into some of the most popular Batman media. Someone really needs to have a talk with him tbh
Actually, Babs being paralised is great disabled representation. Especially in the superhero genre, where someone in a wheelchair is always put as the future villain or a helpless victim. All the disabled people I know love Oracle and get really angry when writers retcon her disability to randomly make her walk again, because they're taking that representation away from them. And from what I've heard from other DC fans, A huge chunk of Babs's fans are there mostly because of how unique a wheelchair-bound "chair guy" female superhero is, and how, despite her tragic backstory, she still manages to be a great hero and even be a boss to other heroes and coordinate them. All of this to say, I understand you think it's cheap she got beaten down for a male character's arc, but don't say nobody wants this because you're ignoring all the fans who see themselves represented in Barbara and love her for it.
You don’t need representation to see yourself in a character. That notion that you need to have a character to be exactly like you to see yourself in them or identify with them is ridiculous
@@ninjafrog6966 I never said exactly like yourself. I said being disabled, which is a pretty low bar in a genre where they're always beating each other up. Booster gold, for instance, also got disabled when they ripped his arm, but it got retconned. Many characters become paralised or lose limbs or some other disability, yet they're only retconned to be perfectly fine if they're a hero, because writers don't want to deal with disabled rep and how to write authentic stories about disabled people. Only villains aren't retconned (see: Harvey Dent, for instance) because it's very easy to write a villain around a disability (vengeance, being crazy, being mentally unstable...) but it's much harder to write an authentic, heroic and earnest story about being disabled., with all the difficult conversations that can come up around it From your comment it seems like you've never needed representation in your life because you've always considered it the statu quo. I will not assume which kind of person you are, but that's how it comes across. You don't need a character to be exactly like you to relate to them, but you need characters like you to know people like you exist, and that they're going through the same issues you are. take care.
My only problem is that a single bullet *in the gut* was enough to make her unable to walk. We could've just had a "Oh and she was shot in the legs too BTW" or "The Joker hit her legs hard when she was unconscious to disable her, just for the *kicks* " (I'll see myself out) But nope. She got shot in the belly like, once, and that's enough to paralyse her legs. And considering the fact she is a crime fighting vigilante, she must have a physique good enough to withstand at least 1 bullet as long as it's not in an organ where the bullet would insta-kill her.
@@pkmntrainerred4247 I do agree with that, yes. Personally, my first contact with this particular story was the Booster Gold version, where he tries to stop this event from happening. If I remember correctly, Joker beats her down really badly in that version of the story, the bullet is just the cherry on top
Writer 1: We need to find a way to give Barbara more development in the Killing Joke movie Writer 2: I know, let’s start the movie with a 30 minute segment about her being sexually frustrated that has absolutely nothing to do with the main story Writer 1: Brilliant!
@@hawhafunnyraffs5568 it's true what they say. live long enough and you'll see everything never thought i'd ever meet someone who unironically liked the killing joke
@@jockeyfield1954 Sorry you don't like cynical edgy shit. You let Marvel and DC do this. They were aspirational heroes, and you let them become this. You voted with your wallet and this is where we are.
This ship is why I never got around to watching the killing joke. I was super hyped when it was first announced because of Mark Hamil's return as the joker, but then I found out that the team thought it was a great idea to add a scene with Batman and batgirl on a roof. I died a little inside that day
@@airtiger4577 yeaahhh, not to mention,havin worked on city roofs before i can tell you they are usually dirty ad heck and certainly not somewhere thats ideal for romantic time lol
My one limit when it comes to romantic ships: No large age gaps. It’s just so very wrong especially when Batgirl has already got romantic ties to Batman’s adopted son.
Bruce and barbara have only 8 years gab And also father figure? She had her father all the time The only thing is that grayson and barbara were together before That's all
Justifying big age gap ships by saying "They're both adults" while ignoring the fact it's almost never a 30 year old woman and 48 year old guy who met at that age, no it's nearly always an 18 year old girl and 30+ year old guy. It's almost like they're deliberately missing the point because the latter is "hotter"?
i’d correct you but, plenty of people have done so before… just try to step outside of your box of “it’s just fiction” narrative because it’s a shit ton more nuanced than what you think. also. just actually read what the original comment said instead of doing ur little “gotcha” points like that isn’t a tired viewpoint with no actual backing in reality. thx.
I agree, everyone seems to be going bonkers over this. They are both adults maybe they were both hard up from not having any in awhile. Kind of creepy since he knew her very young but strange things happen in real life. It would be interesting to see Bruce as a young 25 year old Batman get seduced by a Cougar a hot older lady 40 to 45 years old. That could be a really interesting episode if they went down that route. Personally seeing that clip of Bruce in the back of a car with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn my god every man's wet dream scenario. Imagine the sexual tension of those 3 together. I find that far more interesting and kinky than with Batgirl. Although I still think Maven Selena Kyle's assistant would be the best overall woman for Bruce.
I actually want the Harley Quinn show to cover this, they're the only team I think could pull it off. Babs: "So do any of you think Batman is kind of... hot?" PI: "I mean, kind of. He's good kisser at least." Harley: "Far as I'm concerned, he's basically the Joker without the sense of humor; he's nice to look at but- WAIT! Are you attracted to Batman?" Babs: "Um, well..." Harley: "Ew, NO! He works with your dad, he's twice your age! Look, look, it all good and fun, to fantasize about an older man f_cking bats-" Babs: "He doesn't f_ck bats." Harley: "Sh-sh sh-sh, grown-ups are talking; as I was saying: what you and your vibrator do are your business, until you work this out: but do _not_ act on it, it will just make everything, at best, awkward." PI: "Plus Selina will straight up kill you." Harley: "Really, she never seemed like the jealous type." PI: "That's because Batman's other big ex is a super assassin leading an army of other super assassins and she's not a moron. Trust me, Catwoman be jelly."
To be fair, Alan Moore did later on publicly regret crippling Barbara. But this is also the guy that took a shit ton of psychedelics and worships a snake-god, so one can only ask WHY the hell didn't the editors reign him in?
Because Alan Moore never wrote Batman and Batgirl together as a couple and the killing joke comic is perfect. It was Bruce Timm who always wanted Batman and Batgirl together. Cuz he’s wierd
I know I’m late, but i have to say, whilst the ship is disgusting, very rarely it’s handled decently, for example, the Lego Batman movie implies that Barbara is an adult by the time they meet, but in most canon, yeah this shit is horrifying
Imagine if in The Killing Joke adaption, they explored Barbara's character by having her be the one to break up Joker's crime waves. She's been defeating his goons, hounding him into a corner, and just when she feels on top of the world as a heroine defeating a major villain, he comes at her in her father's home and ends Batgirl's career. Then Batman comes in to save Gordon and hopefully achieve some justice for Barbara, like he keeps doing for others.
Not a bad idea on paper but wouldn't that kind of undermine the point behind the Joker's crippling of Barbara? In the comic nothing implies that the Joker knows Barbara is Batgirl, he only targeted her because he wanted to prove drive Gordon as mad as he is and he knew crippling Barbara and taking pictures of it to force Gordon to be constantly reminded of it would help him in that regard. So while I respect the idea and I think it's not bad, it doesn't fit that scene and why it happens
@@cdawg0902 Except it could. What I was thinking is he definitely doesn't shoot Barbara because she's Batgirl. Batgirl's disrupted his crime, so he needs a new hobby, which he decides will be driving Gordon insane.
@@MegaKnight2012 but wouldn't that undermine the whole point behind The Killing Joke? Joker didn't target Jim because he had nothing going on, he targeted Jim because he wanted to prove his point that he isn't any special compared to anyone else and that anyone, regardless of who or what they are, can be driven to lunacy because of one day. While the idea itself is good on paper, I don't think Joker's reasoning for shooting Barbara needs more reason then what's giving in the comic itself
It’s weird that Timm and others tried to make this work and yet Batman/Wonder Woman seems to be the better ship. I mean I wouldn’t care if it’s canon or not, but it’s weird it’s never attempted again. And I’m not including Catwoman or Talia
Any incarnation of the Main Trio getting together (Wonderbats, WonderSupes, or hell even SuperBat) turns out weird for me. Not *nearly* as weird and creepy as BatBabs, but still just weird. Mostly because when it gets followed through (usually in Frank Miller's books) it's fucked up and explicitly denigrates one or more of the cast. WonderSupes is Superman actively rejecting his humanity to embrace power fantasy of dominating the world's strongest woman (and all that entails.) Wonderbats meanwhile is Diana being weirdly *very* into Bruce despite them clashing over just about every detail and philosophy. It also usually results in Bats saving a damseled Wondie over and over again. They're icons, but also professional. Can we not just have them be friends without the fucking on the side and making cross-canon love triangles between the three?
24:12 - Oh gods I've never seen that interview, that just makes it so much worse. Like I know they generally have Brucey be rather messed up in the head, but having him be a literal predator towards someone that they are implying he sees as a daughter is just such disgusting character assassination. Babs deserves better than this.
Making Batman have sex with a mentee (especially one who's so much younger than him) lowkey destroys everything heroic about him. I don't like Batman and Catwoman together, but at least that relationship doesn't kill Batman's character.
@@missingdiamond6676 yeah its not him being a predator, honestly I didn't mind their relationship as long as Barbara was old enough and if the writers handled it correctly.
I usually try not to be too judgmental about ship, but everything about Batman x batgirl is just WRONG on so many levels. It’s probably the one ship that’s even more problematic then Joker x Harley Quinn, and JokQuinn was specifically designed to be toxic AF.
wow.. imagine trying to make a relationship and having it be more problematic then a relationship purposefully built to be problematic... then trying to _put. it. in. light._ LIKe... *nO???*
@@stephaniecourteoreille5972 OH NO! WHY HAVE DRAMA! WHY HAVE CARTOONS! You didn't care when all the aspirational heroes became cynical twisted septic versions of themselves. But as soon as they have off screen sex, its a travesty. THAT was the bridge too far!
Hey I agree with you big time! Batman is like her father figure of a mentor and Batgirl is his young underling. Timm NEVER should've started this sick ship between them in the first place!
And Kathy Kane (also fridged by Ra's), and even Donna Troy was created so nobody would think the Teen Titans were experimenting with their sexuality. Then Marv Wolfman had Dick lose his virginity to an alien while also giving him a gay best friend (whose father molested one of the Titans, if we want to talk about Bad Ideas).
Barbara having a crush is perfectly fine. It could even be played for laughs. Have her constantly subtly hitting on batman, and have him either turn her down annoyed every time, or have him completely ignore her and play oblivious. Could be a fun dynamic for a while. FOR A WHILE. She doesn't need to crush on him for years of her adult life and never move on. She's one of the smartest women in the world, she should realize at some point how fucked up her little crush is. And she definitely shouldn't betray one the greatest men in comics, Dick Grayson. How is it that of the two redheads he's dated, the only one that fucked around behind his back WAS'NT the super hot alien who's constantly characterized as a massive slut? Riddle me that. Babs should be better than that. She IS better than that. People at WB need to learn to say no to Bruce Tim.
I'm a personal trainer at a gym and I get female clients all the time mixed different ages who usually develop a crush on me or even flirt after a few sessions, some are even taken/married. It's common for women to do this because I'm in a power mentor like position over them while teaching them, but it doesn't mean I reciprocate their advances back because I try my hardest to keep it professional and not making any potential mistakes that could tarnish my reputation if they say anything about me. Basically it's completely understandable that Barbara would develop attraction for Bruce from their mentorship, but Bruce acting on it was wrong and not a good character arc for him.
You're making the right choice by rejecting their advances. That's just gonna get awkward and messy in one way or another,even more if there's cheating involved,and either way there's also gonna be a lot of shit talking. Not worth the drama,honestly.
Did you watch your parents get murdered in front of you at a young age, and then chose to spend the rest of your life turning that grief into a calling to save lives? No? Then it’s not really an apt comparison. Good luck with the cross fit though I’m sure everyone you meet wants to hear about it.
@@ErikDayne I don't know what parent murder has to do with sleeping with your mentee unless your point is that untreated trauma caused Batman to make bad choices? But the saving lives bit you added makes me think you're justifying it? I'm not really sure what you're arguing against here.
I just don't get the logic of this ship. With all the other love interests Bruce Wayne have in the DCAU (Selina Kyle, Wonder Woman, Talia and Zatanna) why did Timm decide to do a romance with Barbra and Bruce (which is wrong for so many reasons) instead of just deciding to settle on one of Bruce other romances (preferably Selina or Diana).
Well it’s implied Barbara is attracted to older men in the dcau with dick Grayson being described as puppy love and the relationship with her husband in beyond being a much older man. It’s problematic especially the comic I don’t know why timm is such a huge fan of it
I have blurry memories of the time i watched the killing joke with my dad in the living room, we watch DC and marvel movies together, its the way we bond. (i was 6-8 i think) THAT scene came up in it, he forgot that it existed. I asked what was happening, he fast-forward through that small scene. I can only realize now how uncomfortable it was for a dad to realize his 6-8 year old daughter almost watch that, and for her to ask why batman was touching batgirls butt. watching this made me remember that...
@@tigerfestivals5137 again, some people forget, plus they said that their dad bonded over DC movies and they aren't all sunshine and rainbows So again Maybe he just forgot And it's not like he made her watch it in the end
Also Bruce Timm has said in interviews that he liked the ship *because* it's wrong. Because it's"interesting". Except that's a pile of shit because he never does anything interesting with it. Throughout the New Adventures and Batman beyond, he spends most of the time dedicated to the ship as a way to be cute and/or sexy. No one really calls it out. Alfred sure as hell doesn't have a problem with it. Tim is just the clueless kid who doesn't like romance yet. And Dick, in the show, is constantly just around to be Bruce's beta. The loser. The cuck. And in Batman beyond, he even makes it seem like something Bruce and Babs are PROUD of. No regrets. Even implying Babs was Bruce's true love. It's clear Bruce Timm just liked the taboo. Liked younger women. Liked the idea of Batman being such a stud, he was able to bang the forbidden fruit. And she asked for it. Not to mention it seemed "cool" in the 90s to make any adaptation of Dick Grayson just a "lesser" to Batman in every way. Thank goodness the relationship isn't mentioned at all in the Justice league show. And they retcon it to be Wonder Woman who is love interest.
I’d rather that Bruce Timm had had more moments of Bruce with Selina and Diana than Barbara. Bruce had better moments with Diana and Selina. I know that so many rather Diana with Clark, but the relationship that she has with Batman was interesting, even Snyder reconizde that.
thiis looks just like a fetish, this ship is ain't just a dumpster on fire IS BORING, every time they use it's mediocre. Bruce Tim says he likes it because it's incorrect and presumably "adds layers" and "possibilities' ' and "subtones" and they had "potential"... I've never seen the writers do anything interesting with that couple. I've never seen it improve the personality or development of any of these characters (what's more, it's superficial and irrelevant)
Which I also hate. Seriously There are three women who I absolutely hate the idea of Batman being with (Batgirl, Lois Lane and Wonder Woman) and Bruce Timm put Batman with all three of em which means if I ever meet him in real life I’m gonna punch him in the face.
Got about six minutes into this video and I just remember seeing this on the TV Tropes page for Franchise Original Sin. There were hints as far back as her first two-parter showing in Batman: The Animated Series that Batgirl had feelings for Batman. Later episodes featured, for instance, a Dream Sequence where Batgirl saves Batman, then they attempt to kiss (before Robin interrupts the dream). Most people didn't really mind it at the time, since it pretty easily read as a Precocious Crush and there were no real signs that Batman reciprocated. Later material helmed by Bruce Timm, such as various post-JLU comics and the infamous adaptation of The Killing Joke, made the pairing canon, to generally very poor reception.
Agreed It's very normal for younger people to find older people attractive and they shouldn't be blamed for it but when it's reciprocated is when we have a problem
Timm never worked on any post -JLU comics, and even Sarcastic Chorus outright says they’re not canon. Well, Justice League Infinity is, but that has nothing to do with this pairing.
In the early Batman shows where Adam West played Batman, batgirl was a smart, levelheaded woman who’s main fighting schtick was her really high kicks (I mean it, rewatch those fight scenes, she’s always kicking bad guys), and she and Batman had a mutual respect for each-other, and nothing more. Which is why they worked together so well. Batman had much more chemistry with Catwoman than with Batgirl, and I think that was intentional because there is “Man” in Batman and “Woman” in Catwoman, whereas “girl” in batgirl implies a younger person, just like in Robin’s “Boy wonder”. I’m not saying that this means Robin has to be paired with Batgirl either though, just that it does imply that Batgirl is younger than Batman. And it’s a crime they didn’t do anything more with Marsha Queen of diamonds and her Aunt Hilda.
I knew there was a reason I preferred Dick with Starfire. It's because this stuck out in my memory and made me Hella uncomfortable. Well that and Kori seemed a better match for Dick's personality.
Honestly I am surprised there isn't a war between Batcat fans and Wonderbat fans. With how big the fandom is this could be Ww2 of the shipping wars and I would have LOVED to watch it while secretly shipping Batcat.
Because we all know Batman has a harem. There really isn't a point to bicker. Batman chooses to be a loner most of the time. At that point, people just want him in a healthy relationship and it doesn't matter who.
This reminds me of the original age gap problem with Mr. Fantastic (Reed) and the Invisible Woman (Sue). In the comics, they first met when Reed (and Ben) rented a room from Sue's parents while Reed and Ben are going to college. The original flashback for this has Sue being depicted as not even in high school but crushing on the older Reed. Yeah, you can see the problem nowadays but guess back then, nobody thought it was a problem until the 00s were the story got updated and now Sue is de[octed as either a junior or senior and Reed is entering his 1st year of college. As for the actual topic, the only 2 Barbara/Bruce that I don't think have any creep factor would be potetially LEGO Batman and the pre Crisis Batgirl....As you mentioned, in both cases, Barbara is way closer in age to Bruce than she is to Dick and in both cases, she and Bruce don;t know each other beforehand AND she never really is his protege/student
God; this one right here. This is some next level "the author's ship" material. Bruce Tim out here willing to burn the whole house down, so the bats could bang lol
This isn't where he burned the house down. That would be the movie with Harley Quinn and Swamp Thing and Harley rapes Dick. When I said I wanted this to be more loyal to the source material, I didn't want THAT!
Remember when adult Black Cat threw up on teenage Spiderman once he revealed he was a teen, because the reveal she had made out with a minor was so wrong to her? Yeah, stop doing this cradle robbing bullshit.
Difference between this situation that one is Batman and Batgirl are both adults while Ultimate Spider-man was a teenager and Ultimate Black Cat was an adult.
Missing the point a bit. She was disgusted not because she figured out Spidey was a minor (afterall je could've been 18 for all she knew), but because this big, shiny hero who she imagined to be a sexy, good looking young man turned out to be a pimple ridden, awkward teenager. It was in similiar spirit to what happened in the main universe were she wanted peter to wear his Spidey mask 24/7 because the sight of this "loser" shattered her dream image about the webhead, hence why their relationship fell apart later on.
I would like to apologize for informing or retraumatize everyone of this ship’s existence but I’m sadist.
Also, I will go back to doing reviews soon!
No no, this is fine.
Because Bruce Timm should catch flak for this like a zeppelin over London, FOREVER. Let him NEVER live this down. Because if we let him think we've forgotten, he might get it in his head to "get it right this time."
You can make it up to them by giving us the Arnold and Helga shipping video. Besides, one has to appreciate a good trolling every once in a while.
Don't worry, I forgive you. I'm glad that at least when I was unfortunately reminded of this crap it was because someone was calling it out.
It's so ironic for me that u made this video when u did, because I've been re-watching Batman:TAS, and I was literally thinking about how wrong this was yesterday because I was watching the Roxy Rocket episode, and Batgirl said some wild shit like "Once she has a taste of u, there's no going back"(amazing what they put in kids cartoons back then), and even Batman is lookin' at her like "Dafuq?", that should have been the end of it, but nope he smashes her anyway, in hindsight it's crazy how much they actually hinted at the ship too, also are u gonna do a video on why u hate Young Justice Season 4?
U fucking monster. Apology not accepted >: (
"He's known her since she was either 13 or 15"
I believe the dialogue implies that the last time he SAW HER was when she was either 13 or 15. He could have actually met her much earlier than that, indeed, somehow worsening this whole disaster of a ship.
TAS Batman met Jim Gordon and Leslie Thompson the night his parents were killed. They were his anchors even as a child. That's why Bruce Wayne has his own relationship with Commisioner Gordon. Think on that time table and feel free to vomit!
People be complaining about age difference but still ship Wonderbat. :D
@@feelcollins4358 because their both adults and met as adults 🧍♀️
@@nyxdrawsthings6847 How does that change things? It's still a 5000 age gap.
So if old Bruce met Barbara when she was an adult then it's fine since they're both adults? 😂😂
@@feelcollins4358 …yes, and if he wasn’t In a mentor, mentee relationship with her.
"Robin is the most-popular pairing with Batgirl... when's he's not banging the alien"
This was absolute gold😂
1.3k likes with no replies? let me fix that an entire year later
1.3k likes with 1 reply? let me fix that a day after the last comment.
Ngl it's kinda true
I mean Star is clearly the better option. At least she didn't sleep with his adopted father. (Also she's just way hotter.)
So I'm an outsider to the canon mostly only familiar with the DCAU, Teen Titans, and some of the more recent animated movies, so help me get this shit straight here.
Dick Grayson is Nightwing, the one who bangs Batgirl and Starfire.
Jason Todd is the one who came back as Red Hood.
Tim Drake is the really young one who the Joker kidnapped and fucked up with Cadmus tech in the Batman Beyond movie.
And Damian is the little fucker who Talia popped out.
Did I get that all right?
The absolute worst part of trying to get into Gotham based media. I still go for Catwoman and Batman because they are at least messed up together in the right ways for me.
Agree! Bruce and Selina even make each other less messed up.
They flirt CONSTANTLY, either straight up or subtly.. I also swear there was like an episode or something where Catwoman & Batman got together but I could've imagined it.
Catwoman and batman work better because Bruce is always chasing crime while Selina is a kleptomaniac who can't help but commit crimes. They complete one another from a superficial point, and really play on the whole good guy seduced by bad guy with a shit ton of sexual tension.
There is so much more about their relationship then just a super hero and a thief. Catwoman by Ed brubaker is one of my favorite interpretations of catwoman and even goes into detail of her relationship with Batman. Highly recommend.
it's more annoying than messed up.
same thing with spiderman and black cat.
An even worse thing that I just worked out, so in the comic Barbara is roughly 7 weeks pregnant, and dick has been around for 3, which means taking away the week in between she would’ve been 3 weeks pregnant during the joker death scene. But the thing to note, is that Tim was kidnapped 3 weeks ago because Batman and batgirl weren’t on patrol with him, this horrible thing might’ve happened to Tim because Batman and Barbara couldn’t keep it in their pants
That is so horrible it somehow loops into being kinda funny. Like, was this timeline made like that on purpose?? did the writers just really wanna piss people off?
Wow didn’t even realize that…amazing how this ship manages to make one of the most selfish and narcissistic versions of Batman ever and makes Barbara look like she has no purpose but to be a ginger fetish fuel
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
@GabreyaThe original TAS Batman is a good character. I blame The New Adventures of Batman to be the downfall of a lot of those characters. Characters lost a lot of visual appeal, Batman was more like the Frank Miller depiction, and Batgirl is just the girl.
@ihavenoideaatall7381 agree. i liked the TAS batman not LOVE but like. I started the new adventures and yeeeaaahhh now poison ivy one of my Favorite character is now a 14 yo activist same with Barbara only its with the bats. its was a mess and his it what we get years later after that mess. i think TAS batman is new of the only good bat carton shows the other is Batman Beyond.
Fun Fact: There is an alternate universe where Batman takes over the world and Jim Gordon evades his cameras for weeks, figures out his secret identity, tracks him down, beats the shit out of him, strips Wayne industries of all of its assets, than throws him in jail.
This is what i envision whenever i see this ship.
@TheGlassesPro In DC there are infinite paralel universes so Yes.
If you’re asking “Is it in the comics” the answer is also yes. Look up “Batman the grim knight”. And you should find more info there.
That would be great to read. Beat the man that took advantage of your daughter
@@PirvateerKurei This also unironically proves that Gordon is more competent than all of batmans villains or the entire justice league combined.
The Grim Knight (the evil version of batman in the story) is also claimed to be the most inteligent of the dark knights. Even smarter than the Batman who laughs. Main universe Gordon said that he would have done the exact same thing if Batman became evil.
@@cherechesalexdaniel811 Thanks for the recommendation, that sounds like a fun (and right after this video, a little cathartic) read!
Batman who laughs became oversaturated due to Dark Knights Metal. Then we have evil Punisher Batman 😂
Imagine the influence if they'd actually ran this story arc early on in a way where she had a crush, and Batman politely turns her down, explains why this isn't going to be a thing, and they work through that in a way where they can continue to fight crime together, and she moves on appropriately. Would have given young men an example of both being able to set boundaries, and also having some conscious awareness of problematic situations to avoid.
Yes, god please! We need more of that in everything!
You have no idea how much I wish that happened!
Actually, you probably do.
No arguments here. Unfortunately, that didn't happen because it got away of the wish-fulfillment.
We need to change what examples men are given as to what wish fulfillment should be
I've unironically seen porn handle the situation better
Honestly it would have been better if they made Barbara having a secret crush on Bruce and him not returning to her feelings.
That's how it originally was
@@falconeshield and that's how it should have remained!
Agreed. Imagine the impact if Bruce had to awkwardly reject her and explain why they could never be a thing. It would show growth and solidify their work/platonic relationship, a temporary heartbroken Barbara who now has to get over her problematic crush, and just reaffirm the fans respect for Batman as the adult.
@@LisaNaniOfficial honestly, the killing joke would be made more impactful if the final moments he has with barbara are an angry lecture on why they shouldn't and will never be together. like, he chews out his protégé and the next day she's paralyzed. it'd definitely hit harder than "oh no, the girl batman just banged can't walk now :("
That would've been a little better.
I think Oracle is an amazing development to Batgirl. It proved that she's not just the girl sidekick, she's actually as good a detective as Batman.
Right, like actually I love Oracle. How we got there might have been shitty, but it is the best thing that's ever happened to her.
This peole believe that anything bad happening to a female character is misogyny, instead of, you know, a character arc...
I mean I wouldn't classify oracles role as being a detective
A:"what's wrong with being a sidekick? B:"Oracle isn't a detective, she's mission control, the one who provides information from online and hacking skills! C:"Oracle is a retcon, made by someone else. Can you imagine the outrage, if she straight up quit crime fighting instead?
@@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon
Nah i definitely could see why it was seen as misogynistic before, because back then there was a phenomenon called “fridging” where the women in comic books have horrible things happen to them to further the men’s development.
Oracle was a good way to turn it around though turning it into actual development for batgirl
I was in a theater for Killing joke. When they started making out the entire theater was literally shouting their disapproval. One guy behind us shouted "No! He's old enough to be your daddy!" An apprentice having feelings for an older, mentor figure is far from original, and it can be grounds for some interesting drama and character development. However almost universally having the mentor act on or even have the same feelings is considered wrong.
During the story of drakengard the protagonist has a sister who has a crush on him...
Thing is he really does not and near the end she kills herself because he doesnt correspond to her love
That game is really dark and fucked up but i think it really does well when covering dark subjects
The director said in an interview that he did this because he hated the sister tsundere troope from animes and manga
It’s not just that it’s a mentor/mentee relationship. It’s that it’s BATMAN AND BATGIRL. Like wtf????
The truth is bruce is only 8 to 10 years older than barbara
Gordon and thomas wayne are from the same generation
Bruce isn't
@@heroeus8173 Yeah but he is also her mentor, father figure, dad's friend, and knew her when he was well into adulthood and she was a minor, no CallMeCarson type shit either.
@@vergilsonofsparda3019 father figure?
If barbara needed bruce as a father figure it would mean that gordon did a bad duty as dad which i think isn't the case
People tend to be shock by it
Because they imagine bat girl being a little girl
She was a woman when she f*ck with bruce
And that's that
My only issue would be that bruce knew that sleeping with barbara would hurt grayson
But at any moment
Bruce didn't pursue barbara
People just tend to idolise batman too much
i remember reading somewhere that when the killing joke movie premiered at comic con went so bad one of the writers tried to pick a fight with someone in the audience because a joker cosplayer asked why they would downgrade barbara’s role even further to motivate bruce
Cosplayer was spittin
@@aex9516
And the laughable part that it's a joker who said it.
When the joker has a good point.
@@lawrencevalero8111 Lmaooo. I'd like to imagine that it was actually the Joker being pissed off at the writers.
@@Ellie_The_GameDev I just imagined a real-life version of when the Joker finds out Red Skull is a Nazi, but replacing Red Skull with the writer, all in Hamil's voice.
Bruce is like a second father to Barbra, this ship should never had happened. It's distasteful, disgraceful, deplorable. Just no.
That’s Shipping was ridiculous and insane
You must be young
@@richardshiflett5181 the hell does that mean?
Barbara: "You know, I used to have this huge crush on Batman."
Bruce: "I had assumed at the time. That disappeared once you became Batgirl and learned you'd known me since middle school?"
Barbara: "Yeah. All that crap disappeared pretty much instantly."
No it’s disgraceful, disgusting, and despicable.
There's a quote about Dini and Timm.
"As they got older, their tastes got younger."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
This is horrible. Saved
Leonardo Dicaprio lore
Unfortunately that seems like every fucking man in the entertainment industry
the Batfamily should have a "no dating between members" rule. by which i mean; this should be a rule the writers stick to.
I agree
*Me, a Dick/Babs and Steph/Tim/Cass shipper* Nah, just let’s make it so Bruce ISN’T dating his sidekick.
@@repulser93 This
No mentor/mentee relationships
But Barba and Dick had a genuinely wholesome relationship tho...
Before Bruce swooped in and NTR'd his son.
Everytime I managed to forget about this ship, I'm unfortunately reminded of it. Seriously, it's one of those things that I try to pretend isn't cannon in the DCAU cause I REALLY hate it.
Same like I literally forgot it existed then this video popped up and the flashbacks started again
@Xana if I was in the board room and the person who spat “Batman and Batgirl should fuck getting Barbara pregnant” I would’ve fired them immediately
@Xana do you remember that one scene he had with Cheetah oh my god this dude basically kissed a furry. Literally the only female character who makes sense for Batman to end up with is Catwoman like the way their relationship was portrayed in the Hush movie like that is really good but this Batgirl and Batman stuff no ew gross get that out and throw it in the sun.
@Xana this man is pretty much single in every iteration other than Talia but didn’t they separate idk I don’t read comics
Same.
Okay, honest question: How is Batgirl paralyzed AT ALL when she shares a universe with magicians and cyborgs?
The justice league can give a guy a robot arm, but fixing a spine is too much?
Drama..
Fuck the robot arm, Victor Stone was turned to fucking chili-meat and he was not only saved but turned into one of the world's most capable superheroes.
@@jacktheripper2537 Yes, I know the real world reason, but what is the in-universe excuse?
This makes no fucking sense in universe!
@@thegreygoblin5165 Yeah, but that was turned from "my dad is good at robotics" into "new gods tech does weird shit" a while ago (but after killing joke, if I'm not mistaken). But there are so many heroes and villains that have some form of magic or robotics that could have been used to heal Barbs.
John Constantine can bully God into healing his cancer (again) but Barb has to sit in a wheelchair for a few years?
I mean, I don't mind the representation, but it makes no sense in universe!
Apparently in some versions she has a spinal implant that allows her to walk, but she has to rest it pretty often so she only uses it as Batgirl. Still, doesn't really make sense, but at least it's something.
Who the hell sleeps with their adopted son's ex-girlfriend
Fr
@@Kazuma_kiryu311depends on the version.
@@Kira22558 ik
Bruce Wayne apparently
Batman
I actually saw The Killing Joke in a packed theater when it first came out. It was dead silent when *that* scene came up. You hear a pin drop, everyone was so collectively confused and horrified.
Lmaooo i was flabbergasted when this scene came on as well and pretended it didn't happen at all
I watched this on my dad's phone and best to say that I had to make sure my dad didn't catch onto this and my reaction.
I already didn't like the killing joke, and that made it worse for me.
I'm terrified now
@QueenJuliRose yea for context batgirl/Barbara is literally Dick Grayson/Nightwing/Robin…..main girlfriend other than his “teen titans” counterparts…..she’s the girl you’d think Dick would end up with when it was all over….so two things i hate was yes what they did with her here in “the killing joke” is criminal….aswell as the “Arkham series” of games were they make her “Tim Drakes” love interest i hate that almost as much as the killing joke bs
I feel the same way when Catwoman comes onto Dick either in the comics or any of the animated stuff. The idea of my Dad's ex-girlfriend flirting with me when in some continuities she known me since I was a kid gives me the heebie-jeebies
Yeah, I mean she is basically his adopted mom!
The thing is, Babs is also pretty close to Bruce's age.
With Catwoman you have the awkwardness of Earth-2. There, Dick started seeing her as a mother figure pretty much during her first appearance.
Considering his numerous attempts to murder the Joker were foiled by Batman in another story in that same issue...(What can I say? Dude has professional pride, and the Joker is an insult to circus performers everywhere.)
ew ew ew thats his stepmom wtf
@@parrotenthusiast1181 Let's kick this up a notch: Black Canary saw him in the shower once and complimented his appearance.
So, for those keeping track, she's basically Speedy's mother. In fact, Nightwing is the godfather to Speedy's child. So yeah, this whole thing is getting a bit too Game of Thrones.
But then there's how Chuck Dixon forgets Barbara's age when retconning her and Dick as having dated when they were younger, but remembers her age (and her Ph.D.) when writing her teaching Cassandra Cain how to read.
@@jonbrewer297 wtf that’s basically her sons friend.. dc writers why are you so creepy
I understand Batgirl lustng after Batman, but him returning her feelings is insane
Her having lust for Batman is creepy. and him being a sex predator is creepy also. i mean, WTF??
@@dusty5412
It’s creepy, but it makes a little more sense, since people can fantasize/lust for people who are older then them (specially at a young adult age), still creepy of course, but a lot more understandable than the old guy reciprocating the feelings.
@@dusty5412 So you mean to tell me that you've never, ever, at some point in your life, had a crush on a teacher, babysitter, or anyone of a significant age difference?
@@dusty5412 truth be told, there is young girls who are into older man, in the end the wrong one will always be the responsible and mature adult who reciprocate those feelings
I agree it's fine having crush on older guys. but her having lust for him...is just creepy and gross you know.
Thank you, this sufficiently covers why no one wants Bruce Timm's trash ship and never will. Why go for this abomination of a pairing when Bruce and Selina have been there since the beginning? While there may be a conflict of interests between them, they are at least equals that actually love each other and the success or failure of their romance doesn't utterly destroy the family Bruce has left.
Yeah actually good point cause it seems like in DCAU Bruce Timm was desperately tying make this dumpster fire of a ship work instead just sticking to Catwoman the actual love interest of Batman
Why? Because Timm is getting more and more delusional with age. People keep praising him for DCAU and he bought into the hype.
They could have even explored Talia & Batman's relationship (the one where they were married & had Damian together, before Grant Morrison came in with the horrible r*pe stuff). Anyway, the tension between Batman & Talia or even Batman & Catwoman is enough to fuel a whole series. Literally no one needed Batman/Batgirl.
I think that the batgirl and Batman ship is just not possible without just completely changing Batman himself and the family dynamic they would have to probably make sure one robin never has a relationship with her and probably have to remove the connection to commissioner Gordon in order for it to be somewhat ok. I would say that Batman and Wonder Woman would be better or catwoman. Even if it is flawed.
@@gameoveror7970 To be honest, I think Bruce/Barbara could work (even if quite lame and uninteresting: I am not too puritan on that side), but the setup was atrocious. It felt like a writer's fetish.
I was more invested with Bruce/Selina. Bruce seems interested to her (as she is his wife in his ideal dream in _Perchance to Dream_ episode), while knowing she is Catwoman. Yet, Catwoman flirts with Batman, knowing all too well it was a ruse to escape. So Bruce is unsure about Selina's true feeling about him. I think it was a really good and a better story to explore.
let's not forget that in some cases, Batman's known her since she was a young child. And there's everything creepy about getting with a person you know when they were a child.
Like you said, in some cases. There are versions when she's already in college, - or even older - by the time they meet.
@@OneGaurdian yeah but we're primarily talking about the cases where he gets with her after knowing her as a child,
@@OneGaurdian In college is still kinda weird cause most people are still transitioning into adulthood at that point. But knowing someone as a literal child and then pursing them once they’re legal is a whole different level of creepy and wrong.
@@CheesenMac123 it's only creepy of they had feelings for them when they were a child
@@TheSMR1969 Well that’s your opinion. Turning 18 doesn’t make you a grown adult and a lot of people in college are still transitioning. So personally, if a grown adult meets the person while they’re barely legal and not even old enough to drink, I say it’s still creepy.
Bit of a correction Barbara was't temporarily paralyzed she was fully paralyzed but she got a spinal implant to become Batgirl again but recently became oracle again and now she's only being Batgirl when the batfamily absolutely needs her she's staying as oracle to give her spinal implant a break
Oh good I'm glad she's allowed to be smart again. Now if only they would bring back Stephane brown
@@Kris-wo4pj Stephanie is back she's just not going by Batgirl although right now there's a series with Barbara, Cassandra, and Stephanie called "batgirls"
@@skeletor4436 ah OK I've been out of the comics side for a while. Last I checked the editor refused to let Stephanie not be dead since he hated her or something even tho everyone else wanted her back as Robin or spoiler. Then again that was around the same time they refused to let batwoman get married in comics and refused to let batman finally marry catwoman after yrs of dating and flirting at all.
@@Kris-wo4pj Bruce and Selina are pretty much married they just never went through the whole marriage process and it does really suck batwoman was't allowed to get married
So much for representing disability among the superhero community. I think the reason why she was portrayed as Oracle for far longer than Batgirl is her struggle and rebirth as something far greater than an imitation of Batman.
But of course some people wants the cake and eat it too. And who can blame them for being so blind that they would miss the point of a crippled standing firm above her stereotype. And perhaps even above Batgirl.
Apart from how fucked up this pairing is on an ethical level, it makes no sense for Batman's character. This is a guy who, while in a healthy relationship with Silver St Cloud (who's his own goddamn age), literally wept at his parents' graves because he felt like he was betraying them by being happy - that he deserved to be miserable for the rest of his life as penance for letting his parents die.
He's so duty bound and guilt-ridden that he can't have a normal relationship without feeling like he's doing something wrong, and yet this is the guy who breaks so many boundaries to sleep with a girl that he only seems half-heartedly interested in at best?
Batman totally comes off as the type who would chew out an older hero for sleeping with their apprentice, not the type who would DO it. This ship kills me, it's just so out of character.
@@ellag3265 this was forced, it’s bullshit
@@ellag3265 totally. It sounds like such a contradiction and fanfic-ey.
If he sleeps with her he will feel guilty, and can be more miserable!
Not bad, I wouldn't mind feeling bad over that! Would you?
Unless this is him self sabotaging his own life, which still makes this completely fucked-
1. Best friend daughter
2. Age difference
3. Was dating the surrogate son
4. Why did she gloat about this in Return of the Joker?
This ship is so creepy.
For all the reasons YES
No it isn't you sheltered prude. Probably got some headcanon going on that people who hate this usually have, which makes up Bruce being a father figure to Babara.
@@zerofudou5689 LOL like it is ok to sleep with ex of your son.
It enable the fantasy oldman put a seed on teenage girl… fuk its disgusting.
It comes off as predatory since he knows her dad when she was with little of before she was even alive.
I remember in a video interview, Bruce Timm talked about the relationship as:
"I know it's wrong, but that's why I love it."
I love your work, even your risque stuff.. but NO, (BONK!) JUST NO!
As someone with a limited understanding of the DC mythos, I have to ask, why? Why this one? This ship feels like a smut fanfiction you'd find on some weird sect of the internet, not something that should be taken seriously as an actual part of Batman lore. Or alternatively, it sounds like an exaggerated plot thread for a fake drama show or a dating drama parody.
@@flarestorm9417 youre so right
@@flarestorm9417 because it is
They'd love this guy on CW.
I think one of my biggest issues is that we don't see enough of Batman's pov here.
I want to see some Bruce Wayne slamming his fists down yelling: "why did I do that!?"
I want to see Catwoman and Dr. Harley Quinn rake him across the coals.
I want to see Him Gordon go ballistic.
I want to see Alfred lose his sh_t. Why are Babs and Tim the main ones getting all the consequences?
Long story short: Batman knew his best friend’s daughter when she was 13 maybe 14, now she’s 19 maybe early 20’s and they’re banging.
Lego Batman kinda fixed this having Batman not knowing Barbra. The party for Gordon’s retirement was the first time he looked at her, the presentation for her entrance said she had been in the police force for awhile so she’s probably in her mid-20’s. Regardless, they killed the ship by having them remain as just friends, in their words (but not entirely exact) “just good friends who just so happens to be a female.”
Please tell this to the ppl saying there’s nothing wrong
Which is fine. Don't need to be romantic.
Well Lego Batman is for kids...
Batman didn't know her when she was 13-14, she was 13-14 when Bruce last saw her
@@SanSan-jp1frthat means the same thing
There are 2 rules:
1. Don't bang your friend's daughter
2. Don't bang your son's gf
Batman broke them both
Starfire tweakin after reading this
**Double kill**
For this Batgirl and Batman will always be disgusting in my eyes. What sort of idiot decided to fuck his son's love interest? Even if she was an ex is still weird... Also she's nasty as well for playing with both of em
I agree that the problem is Batman returning the feelings. Girls wanting older men is pretty normal, my father was 10 years older than my mum. If both parties are adults who cares about the age difference? It is the "raising her" part that even makes this a blip on my radar.
Unless its specifically shown, I wouldn't assume the "raising" part, but there is still the mentoring going on, which is also a problem.
It’s interesting because my mom was 10 years older than my dad and I never bat an eye to that until I got older. There was still a wierd dynamic in that too no different than the older man with younger woman relationship. Idk I guess it’s about maturity? But then again I wouldn’t date someone so far away from my age.
What raising part?
She had her father all the time
@@heroeus8173 Guess raising as a superhero. Learning lessons from him by observation, leading by example. The commissioner can prepare her for the life of a police woman, not a superhero. Or are you suggesting Bats had zero impact on her growth?
@@ThePariahDark well in that case you can admire someone without having intimate feelings for them
And it is very known that women in general like men with power
It's like you are saying you never seen men that have authority and that teach women
And those women dream to sleep with them
We can't really call that raising
If jim gordon was dead
And by that connection
Bruce took care of barbara since a child as a duty
Then it would be questionable if they came to this type of relationship
My only real problem is that grayson and barbara was dating at that time
But barbara just monkey branch to batman
And bruce knew that
And he did say to grayson when both are coming to hands
"That barbara make her choice"
But i still understand Bruce on this one on a realistic purpose
At any moment bruce never let barbara come to close
Except that very night
We idealise batman too much
At the end of the night
He has to put the cowl out and let Bruce wayne the place
The biggest problem i have with Barbara is writers will just pass her around the batfam. Across all media she has been with/shipped with:
Dick Grayson, Bruce Wayne, Jason Todd, Luke Fox, and Tim Drake.
Its fucking weird
Exacly. this might sound sexist of me, but, they just do that because she's a woman. you'll never see a love story between Jason and Dick for example, but with Barb it's completelly different. instead of having a sibling-like relationship with the other Robins or having Batman as a father-like figure (like EVERYONE ELSE in the batfamilly) she's just used as everyone's love interest.
@@hillboi5049 its not sexist of you to point out the truth of whats happening. Babs is the most popular female character associated with the batfam, so it happens with her more than the other ladies
@@hillboi5049 Just here. They don't do that for Catwoman.
The writers literally just treat her like the designated love interest, it's so frustrating, creepy and WEIRD, especially given what SC said: it feels weirdly incestuous. Like, Dick, Jason & Tim are generally considered siblings, and Bruce their surrogate dad. What actual person would date every branch on that tree? The writers don't seem to care how weird it would be especially for Babs & it's so frustrating.
Op I'm literally not saying anything new, I'm sorry, I'm literally just so incensed by how fucking weird the batman writers can get
@@hillboi5049 It definetly is pretty gross and sexist.But its really nothing new for dc writers I mean these are the same people who wrote stories about Batman and Nightwing getting raped
Barbra in so many depictions is great, she really is. She is this intelligent, calm, level headed woman who is like a mentor to so much of the bat family. This makes it all the sadder when writers diminish her to just a side character there for sexual drama. DC had such a good character that is great disability representation (still think they shouldn’t have changed it) but the fact so many people know Barbra for this just makes me sad.
My favorite batman fangirl depiction of her is in Harley Quinn (that's not all she is of course she's badass and intelligent and calm but fangirl is also a part of her character also i want to point out she doesn't lust after him she just geeks out like you would meeting your favorite celebrity)
I think it would've been cool if Batgirl was just in a wheelchair from the start in the reboot, unrelated to Joker, so then people don't have to connect it in some way with that particular story and we still get the rep. She could've been insisting she's going to be Batgirl anyway and Batman is like "OMG no" and then she'd go "you ablist; aren't you the smartest detective ever? Help me figure this out" and Batman's only response is a silent glare, sweating bullets internally, and Robin backs her up, and Batman glares at him and he wants to refuse again but he's wired to problem-solve so Batman is pondering how to assist her superhero lifestyle while his utter intent is to stop her from getting killed at all cost.
And that's how we get Oracle I guess. Bat-fam scheme and plot to make her dreams happen together.
You just shouldn’t depict women in media like this, especially in the West it always just goes one way and if it doesn’t go that way in the show it’ll go sexual on the internet, you Westerners really need to wake up
@@Dovah_Slayer that’s a gross lesbo drama
@@alphaslayerzex3573 no we should just stop watching and consuming media like this, let’s face it we aren’t 10 anymore and the shit that’s starting to be shown and promoted is just outright harmful for everyone
I honestly love the plot line of Barbra getting paralyzed and becoming Oracle, but the way she’s reduced to a love interest really takes away from the strong female disabled character that she could be. And it shows in fandom as well, I see people constantly calling her a slut because she is so often depicted as just a love interest for the men in the comic. And it makes this other, often immature people believe that they should hold these standards to real women. Despite what some people believe, media does reflect in real life, so it’s important for people like the writers of these female characters to write them like people instead of objects. Idk that’s just an ick for me tho
Couldn't have said this better.
the killing joke should have been a short film. there was no need for THAT storyline.
Oo hi harriyanna
It seems it was necessary to expose all the overly judgmental people.
@@ErikDayne It ruins Batman’s character. You seem like you’re part of the problem
Bruce Timm was really into this ship, and honestly, I didn’t even pick up on it until they spelled it out in Batman Beyond. And then it festered in my brain for years. An ugly patch of mold on the DCAU that I decided wasn’t worth thinking about. Then the Killing Joke prologue happened, and they took something that already wasn’t good, and made it the grossest possible version it could be.
And hooboy, were Timm and crew super defensive about it when effectively nobody liked it.
I always saw the cavalcade in Beyond as "every woman Batman loves, even platonically". It's the only way I could square Babs being there with the rest. He loves her like a daughter, end of.
@@TheDanishGuyReviews I wish I could see it that way, but Barb confirms it was sexual with Terry the first time they meet.
@@arellajardin8188 I am so happy I don't remember that. It's icky, and I don't know how Bruce Timm doesn't get that. (Hail Mary here: Barbera was messing with Terry. Like how people accept River Song's idea of "You leave the Tardis brakes on" as gospel, when I always saw it as a prank.)
@@TheDanishGuyReviews Not only that, but in the Ra's al Ghul episode Barbara was part of Bruce's personal slideshow on his birthday alongside Zatanna, Catwoman, and Lois. In fact, Barbara was the last girl on there(and Bruce had multiple pictures of her and lingered on her photos versus 1 picture of the rest) and while he was still going through his Barbara album, Talia walks in saying, "I know you loved her, but I cannot believe you didn't save a picture of me as well."
Plus the debatably canon continuation comic series made an even bigger mess, with the reason Nightwing left and doesn't show up in Batman Beyond was that Barbara cheated on him and got pregnant with Bruce's child while she was Dick's fiance... and then got a miscarriage after being punched while crimefighting.
They actually got defensive?
Honestly the fact that they tried making this canon in some half hearted attempt to make the killing joke seem more tragic in the movies is lowkey insulting. Like the crippling of batman own sidekick and the daughter of one of his greatest friends wouldn’t be harmful enough.
Not to mention that Bruce always blames himself when something happens to them. Like Barbara said in Arkham Knight "We are fighting with you, not for you" which is something Bruce doesn't seem to understand or doesn't want to understand.
This ship will NEVER be canon!
I think it would have liked to see batman see her as a daughter of sorts, so when the shot happens, it hits him all the harder.
It’s so horrible as it’s his best friends daughter 🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮
My parents had a 15 age gap. They didn’t start dating until my mom was 20, but my dad met her when she was 17 and he was 32. So I can say with experience that you’re absolutely correct and that it is an incredibly unhealthy and very creepy dynamic. Obviously there’s a huge difference between dating someone significantly older than you when you’re established in adulthood (ex being in your 30s and dating someone significantly older), and actively preying on young people that won’t know any better. As the child of this type of situation, I can tell you it doesn’t end well.
Glad youre self aware and learning from their miatakes. Most people just go MY 42 YO DAD WAS IN LOVE WITH MY 16 YO MOM AND THATS FINE AND HEALTHY BC I NEED IT TO BE
@@stephaniewilliams6756 Seriously! I’ve seen so many of those comments myself and it makes me so uncomfortable.
Oh thank goodness someone who's in this position can agree. I hate ships with stuff like a 25 year difference, where each members' partner is younger than their kid/older than their own father. No amount of therapy makes that cool, lmbo.
@@spaghetto9836 Oh yeah. Believe me, the power imbalance is not lost on the kids of said type of relationship, too. I might not have known how to put it when I was a little kid, but I could definitely see that there was definitely something off.
@@forgetthedisharmony9740 no one wants to be the product of something disgusting
In the Lego Batman movie, Batman is attracted to Batgirl, but in that case she was an adult woman he didn't know when she was a child and she didn't reciprocate feelings anyways. That's literally the only acceptable way for this to go.
I disagree. Age doesn't matter as long as everyone is legal. How can this be 2022 and people still discriminate against against age gap relationships?!! As long as it isn't illegal and both adults are consenting it's no one's business. Hasn't society learned anything from oh I don't know being incredibly hateful and discriminatory towards the LGBTQIA+ community for centuries? What society SHOULD have learned, but obviously failed to, is who other people love and other people's relationships are none of your business, it does not affect you in any way, keep your opinions to yourself as long as everyone is above the age of consent.
@@WhitneyDahlin Look up grooming, that's what's wrong here. Age differences are fine, but he knew her as a Kid and was effectively a second father figure to her. Helping raise a kid, only to fuck them the moment they are legal is not something anybody should support. I get your point, but there is a big difference between hate toward the LGBTQIA+ community and being disguested by Grooming
@@WhitneyDahlin A 60 year old met a 15 year old, waited for him to turn 18, and then started dating him. Is that not creepy to you? If it's not, Houston we have a problem-
Do not compare that to the LGBTQ+ please, we will not be associated with creepy relationships and grooming behaviors, we get enough people trying to claim we're all Ped0s, we don't need you trying to actually make us support them like wtf-
@@theironarmada1308 Preach👍
@@theironarmada1308 thank u
Yeah, Batman and Batgirl never should've been a thing in my opinion and don't get me started on my biggest gripe with it, that biggest gripe being that Bruce/Batman and Barbara/Batgirl know each other through James Gordon Bab's father and one of Batman's closest allies, if Jim ever found out about them secret identity wise there's no telling how he would've reacted i mean i know he's found out Bruce's and Bab's secret identities in some incarnations but still.
This. All of this.
You're right, Jim is the one that they are hurting the most in their so called "romance" because if he found out that Batman was banging his daughter he would feel betrayed by both of them. In fact Jim's biggest question of all for Bruce and Babs would be "How could you two do this?"
@@pedanticat9479 "This. All of this" what???
@@Historybuff-mx4dvI'm agreeing with their statement, XD
@@baymaxinarmor4133 Let's take into account in the most continuities Barbara dates his SON DICK which makes it more unappealing especially for those who love the dynamic of Batgirl/Oracle and Nightwing
What were the writers thinking 😬
For real 😮
Porn
With their little heads
This ship is creepy when you consider that Barbara and Dick are around the same age in the Dcau and since Batman first met Dick when he was a kid and was Batman for years there’s a good chance he might have interacted with Barbara when she was a kid
Birthday parties.
He usually meets Dick in his 2nd year as Batman, and Bruce is between 27/30, and Dick is usually 13. Either way, it's just fucking wrong on so many levels. I get carried away with these characters though, and I'm about ready to just sell my collection and stop fucking with comics altogether lol
@@aaronlisle3773 Post-Crisis it was his third year and Dick was 10. Pre-Crisis, first year and Dick was 8. The oldest before Flashpoint was 12, and that was Frank Miller's All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder.
(Note that germane to this, Thrillkiller is an exception, but it's an exception to a lot of things. For starters, Barbara is Dick's mentor. There, Dick is 16 and Barbara is 20, and Bruce is 22. Dick thinks Bruce is a creeper, and Barbara shuts him up by pointing out the obvious flaw with his logic. The flaw this entire fandom has continuously committed for over 25 years now.)
They met Babs MANY years later, in every continuity save for the New 52 (and whatever the hell Dixon and subsequent batwriters write about once Dixon felt the reactionary urge to wallpaper over people interpreting his Birds of Prey as a sapphic romance). Babs was already a PhD, and was at least 25.
Where DickBabs starts to cancer up this place is, they want to keep Barbara's past (while constantly retconning Dick's past, and frankly stealing elements from one story and applying it to another, so it's told he was on a mission to Tamaran during The Killing Joke; he wasn't, and in fact, Barbara saw Dick and Jason shortly before, like it's a frame in a comic published a week before, but speaking of Jason, he was on a mission to a planet called New Cronus, related to Donna Troy, when Jason died) while also making Barbara 14 when she was shot, which also makes her six years younger than Dick, and a minor, and I'd say it makes me wonder why she's leading the Suicide Squad, but Danny Chase had top-level security clearance at the State Department.
Keep in mind they arent that far apart. In the final season of the animated series they directly say bruce is 30 at the end of that series. ANd its implied dick was 10 when he met bruce. So he would of been 18 or 19. 10 isnt that huge of a gap these days. I know many couples with 10+ difference.
It’s not creepy. You guys are just overly judgmental. Batman risks his life every day. If he wants to have a moment of joy with another consenting adult, I think you can put down your pitchforks and stop the victim parade for 5 minutes.
"I’m 7 weeks pregnant"
"I’ll have to congratulate Dick"
"He’s only been back for 3"
"I was talking about mine."
STOP IM LAUGHING SO HARD 😭
👏👏👏
*slow clap*
I laughed my ass off 😂😂😂
so not cool, but hilraious at the same time XD
The Lego Batman movie was the only one that could have pulled off this ship and they still didn't do it. And honestly, I prefer Lego Batman with Queen Watevra Wa'Nabi.
Lmfao
And even then, Barbara acted and seemed to be an older and much more mature woman in that movie instead of the "half-teen" batgirl she was in comics.
Continuing to prove that LEGO Batman deserves to be up there with the best interpretations of the Batman series.
batgirl was definitely A LOT more mature, and even looks, feels, sounds, and acts closer to bruce's age, also when bruce saw barbara it was implied that it was as if it was his first time to see her, like a total stranger (if im not mistaken), so no grooming or stuff like that can be applied
The age difference is literally in their names! BatMAN and BatGIRL!!! She isn’t a BatWOMAN, she’s way too young to pair with Bruce!!! 🤢
I don't care about most age gaps, but I hate how when media puts in huge age gaps, the younger one is always fresh out of High School. Can we maybe get an age-gap relationship where the younger one has at least some sort of experience in adulthood?
that's is why I don't like age gaps.
most of the fictional couples that I see with age gaps are between a young 18-20 and an adult over 35. This reminds me of those men who waited for the teenager to come of age so they could make out. It's so disgusting.
@@algumacoisa8349 Just asking. Are age gaps where the younger one is in their mid to late 20s and the older is in their 30s still problematic? They had more experience in adulthood so there's less of a power thing going on.
@@giantpinkcat I don't think so, but it depends. Did they meet when the younger one was already an adult? Because there is a difference between two people who met when they were adults (27-37) and people who met when the younger one was 17 and the older one was 27. There maybe grooming
I physically recoiled when I saw *that* scene, it ruined the rewatchability of The Killing Joke. It was out of nowhere and it gave me the creeps. The Batman I know would have scolded her and chewed her out for making those advances and "grounded" her from going on patrol with him.
Bruce isn't some impulsive horn dog who jumps at the opportunity every time a woman makes a move on him. It was SO out of character for the both of them. Batman is like a godfather to Barbara it's just wrong and it crossed the line.
Bruce would've had a serious talk with her about boundaries and the importance of not crossing those lines, which we all know that's something he's big on. 🙄
Oh he did chew her out alright 😏
-god I wanna skin myself alive-
When I tell you how fast I closed my laptop and had a mental breakdown from the visceral reaction I had when that scene came on is honestly hilarious, I did finish the movie to see if it was even good in the first place, and it wasn't even good so I was highly disappointed that I had to go through constant cringing when seeing them or barabara together to get a whole bunch of fucking nothing
The fact he acts like her dad in some scenes
@@enderwalkgang it's seriously so 🤢
The animated Killing Joke was a Bruce Timm Batman and Batgirl fanfic with the actual Killing Joke tacked on to the end.
It’s funny because Bruce Timm is literally the only person who tries to push this paring that no one wants
He also appeared to have a thing for redheads. andrea Beaumont, roxy rocket, hawkgirl, Superman's wife in the adaptation of "the man who has everything" was changed from blonde to red hair and barbara gordon, lana from superman and Veronica Vreeland. If they aren't so important that it would become a main character ( except Barbara) he likes to paint his women red.
Robins' cursed:
1) Ex's getting banged by his father (that beat down was for Tim Drake).
2) Killed by Bender (as Joker), and then brought back by plot armor juice.
3) Hornii girl and Killer of Robins' having intimate relationships while he was tortured for weeks.
4) Roasted by DC Thanos.
Reminder that back when Infinite Crisis was being written they were _seriously_ considering killing him off and it was gonna stick. Right as Jason Todd was being brought back, no less!
Thankfully it didn't happen but the damage was done and he got his whole town nuked.
@@sndark6241why do they hate on my boy Nightwing so much?
and the dumpster fire that is teen titans go robin. that robin is literally a joke, the butt of all joke. no thanks.
The one thing I hated in Batman beyond was when Bruce was looking at old pictures of his flings and had multiple Batgirl ones… ugh. That’s his best friend’s daughter
And I like batman beyond and that just kinda hurts it a bit but not too much
I know right!?
also in the comic of beyond didn't he and Barbara sleep together while she was dating dick then got pregnant and that was the reason dick leaves for good
and i think he forgave Barbara cuz she apologize but Bruce never did
I don't know guys he could be thinking fondly with those old pictures of past flings, with Batgirl in the new jet, in the kitchen, back of an alley, several rooms in his house, getting in and out of different costumes. I am surprised it didn't stop and show Bruce with a big smile on his face reminiscing. You have to think positively.
Bruce tim is a weirdo
She is not only his best friend's daughter....she is not only his adopted son's ex-girlfriend....SHE IS HIS ADOPTED DAUGHTER
She's not Superman's daughter or Batman's adopted daughter. (Hell, Commissioner Gordon still refers to Dick as "the kid".)
Yanno? The sheer amount of fail here is enough to make me ship them out of spite.
When every other Robin is explicitly Bruce's child, and then suddenly they ship Batgirl with Batman...😖
He never adopted her
@@richardshiflett5181
The dynamic makes us feel like he did. Since there all apart of the same bat family.
I know batman collects children like pokemons, but he still can't adopt someone's else kid
The whole Bruce and Barbara thing always bothered me and it’s really not even cause of the age gap cause there are (like you said) great relationships out there with bigger gaps. The HUGE issue is Bruce getting with his sons girlfriend which is just all kinds of gross. It really does make you wonder how long Bruce had these feelings and what was going through his head while he was with his sons ex like did he feel dirty (like he should have) the entire time?? Not to mention what Barbara was thinking
It’s so bad if it happened in the mainline continuity it would fracture the entire bat family even the secondary members like Cassandra Cain or duke would have issues with it
@@a.c.slater7989 I 100% agree, honestly I guess the upside is that all of the weird versions of characters that we do see are considered alternate versions of them therefore not messing up the main continuity too much XD
@@a.c.slater7989 Facts
@@a.c.slater7989 who tf are those 3??
@@a.c.slater7989 I can imagine Tim and Steph just yelling “What The Fuck, Bruce” at the top of their lungs.
I can’t imagine any member taking Bruce’s side, except for maybe Damian. But even then…
I have to be honest, I don't understand why people hate Babs as Oracle. I understand it gets annoying when every comic book follows that same story, but I don't understand why it's seen as such an awful thing. I love Oracle, especially in Young Justice. I love that she was still a massive part of the team, even if she's in a wheelchair. I do have to agree that BatmanxBatgirl is nasty though.
I’ve been saying that the Killing Joke prologue could have worked if they treated her like one of the Robins. How would you get Dick, or Tim to the edge of the “abyss?” Cuz I doubt it would be by banging Batman.
So, I saw "The Killing Joke" because it was available to view while I was on a plane. I also went in relatively-blind because I never read the comic and it had been the better part of a decade since I had seen B:TAS or BB.
I "Noped" right the hell out, only coming back to it after watching "The Lego Batman Movie" as a palette-cleanser.
----
That said, I now have a morbid curiosity to have, like, the same story retold with one of the Robins. Hell, make it the Nolan-Verse where the obvious-stand-in-for-Robin is maybe not as old as Bale's Bruce but still a full-fledged adult. Bruce comes back to Gotham, gets with the detective, idk plot things happen, tragedy...profit!
Literally think of her as Jason in Death of The Family did he bang Batman? Nope. Was he a active participant on his death, close to the abyss and the whole think was catastrophic even though he wasn't truly the protagonist of if? Yes. Would it've possible to do it if he had banged Bruce? Absolutly not. So is Barbara
"Makes Batman look like a Predator!"
Arkham game fans: You're going to have to be more specific...
wait what happens in Arkham did I miss something?
@@wholethedogsout880 No, its just that Arkahm City makes you feel like a damn lion on a rock above herd of gazelle with a gothic symphony choir playing in the skies overhead XD Go play it if you haven't!
@@wholethedogsout880 essentially stealth segments in the Arkham games are called ‘predator segments’ you know like the whole fear thing that Batman goes for. I think the skill tree that focuses on stealth is also called the predator tree but I might just be making that up. I need to replay Arkham City, been too long.
Click noises*
@@Ellimist000 I wanna play this game now...
I agree with you one hundred percent! Whats more I never liked what they did to Barbara in the comics, paralyzing her and reducing her to being Batman's hacker/computer expert.
This video was a wild ride. I hope we get a Robin x Starfire ship video.
We all dream of a seven feet tall, hairy alien girl
The fact that DC allowed Batman to have sex with Batgirl before ever allowing him to have sex with Joker is a crime
100%
All the gay tension between them needs to be addressed outsid eof the Lego movie
to be honest I'd be all in for a weird, alternate universe psychedellic version of Batman and Joker that's fucked up and they have gay sex but they're not even gay. Like they just have a toxic relationship that is encouraged by each one's particular brand of mental illness and they don't even like each other, they just feel like they need to have this will they won't they relationship of crime and violence. A very psychological and dark exploration of the human psyche and Batman as a character
@@Doctor_Straing_Strange you're a little late several adaption has Joker as being canonly bisexual and gay, even the telltale Batman game played with the idea where this Joker has feelings for Bruce Wayne. We already had Batman as a communist villain, as someone who abuses Catwoman, or someone who has sex with Batgirl...elders story can play with the different ideas
@@exchangediary968 oh I know, but I wasn't talking about like a healthy relationship, I'm talking about some fucked up, unhealthy, psychological horror shit
The Lego Batman Movie is the one place where I wouldn't have a problem with the pairing, but you still wouldn't believe how big my grin got when he specifically called her his "platonic female coworker"
so f*cking true
Lego batman movie was the best
Uh yes, i remember, barbara and bruce in lego was wholesome ship
What's the age between them tho? In lego universe
@@kamadotanjiro3176 From what I could find Barbra is in early 20s and Batman, idk Alfred references him being like 51 in that one joke and a site (idk if it’s a relevant one) said early 30s
So lego Barbra is kinda older than a non lego Barbra? i mean, you can tell she's an adult because the way she's sounds, right?
"rule no.1, dating within the team always ends in catastrophe."-batman in the justice league show to wonder woman on a gargoyle. Bruce Tim "i'ma pretend i didn't see that."
Justice league is chronologically after that
The killing joke could have done w/o the ship. Not only does it feel like it sexualizes Batgirl by having all the non-familial males around em have some sexual framing (flirting criminal, Borderline rapist, abusive, controlling one night stand, and that one gay guy who’s only role is to be an ear for ranting and give advice)
The killing Joke’s focus on Batgirl’s love life was unecessary and confusing as to what the theme or message of the movie was.
It starts off as “Batgirl and Batman have a strained relationship”, and ends with, “Batman and Joker are both crazy”
@@10tailedbijuu i dunno, exploring batman’s psyche ?, as in making more parallels to how e’s also a bit looney. Anything but batgirl being hit on by anyone not gay. Or like, replace her with cat woman, and the drama makes a lot more sense. .
I mean he got his wifey Selina
Teenage girl and grow old man lol no @
I agree with you. I wish they portrayed Batgirl as Batman's daughter in the killing Joke. They could've focused on a different side of their relationship like :
- He's always trying to protect her from the dangers of Gotham, making her frustrated and feeling like he doesn't trust her enough to become her own hero.
- She's trying to become more than "the Batgirl" to him and tries to prove herself as an equal, making him distressed at the idea of loosing another child.
Portraying Batman as a mentor, and father figure loosing the equivalent of a daughter would've been much more sadder and impactful ( while being less creepy) . It also echoes with Joker's loss of his family and child.
@@ness3547 in my opinion up until a point it did feel that way. So yeah
I don't really get shipping Batman with any of his partners/allies.
I mean, the guy's discipline incarnate. If he thought he had an untoward connection with someone in his unit, he'd take steps to make sure he never acts on it. The only reason it works with Catwoman is because, when he isn't bamboozled by her, he's always going to put the cuffs on her or at least take back what she stole.
Honestly for me cat woman is the only one who makes it work.
@Milomondo
actually I think most of the Batfamily is either indifferent or is cool with her, like Dick has actively endorsed it when they are together.
@@mikemorro140I mean it make sense she like the only rogue who doesn’t actively murder dozens of people on a weekly bases
@@gameoveror7970
Yeah, theft is far less serious than murder.
Id say one of his healthiest romantic relationships (before tom king and animated movies like Sin Of Batman) Talia and him had a pretty good relationship
Oracle was not just superhero tech support; her code name is Barbara's persona. She was the all-knowing, all-seeing criminal investigator that superheroes look to in order to get answers when they couldn't find one. Previously being Batgirl and mentored by Batman, she's also a high-level tactician and strategist who is also competent in martial arts despite her disability. I've never read her return as Batgirl but I assume her recovery was due to her physical training and advance spinal surgery which most likely she discovered herself. The way they added her story as filler In the Killing Joke movie was disrespectful and gross. Belittling this character's story arc.
Completely agree. I was a fan of Barbara's Batgirl pretty much since the 70s when I was watching reruns of the Adam West Batman series, growing up. I always liked her as Batgirl and read whatever I could with her in it. I bought Killing Joke when it came out and was a teen at the time. I wasn't mad I went with the flow. I was curious about her as Oracle and really liked her in that role.
Then when Killing Joke was animated, I heard about the scene and wasn't happy about it. It wasn't necessary and felt like forced filler. They should have just left it out. This is the first time I've heard about her being pregnant with his kid. Glad they ditched that with a miscarriage. However that whole thing should have never happened. I liked her and Dick as a couple, and found it really random and odd that she married someone else in Batman Beyond.
I’ve honestly not read much into Batgirl’s backstory (apart from of course the basics as knew her most of all from The Batman series), especially in the long run. Only actually more relatively recently as in about two years ago, first discovered that she actually did eventually become paralysed. Let alone apparently, after a while, returning as Batgirl after getting perhaps treatment. Where exactly does all of this go down in any of the comic book stories? I’ve heard that apparently it happened quite a while ago now in terms of its graphic novel coverage!? Think I’ve read a little bit from something like the very end of the 90s or the early 2000s of something.
@@danielwhyatt3278 it was an ongoing arc that ran close to a decade between the killing Joke into late 2000's. Reduced down to a few minutes in a movie that the story doesn't even belong in. It was about a hero's journey that she chose to take on, having no tragedy or trauma making her into a hero. Instead the movie made her some kind of hot head who isn't in control of her emotions looking for validation from a mentor. Bruce and Barbara in the books were always kindred spirits that were a bond similar to brother and sister. She earned his respect as he did to her. To taint this relationship as one of lust for each other undermines both of their character.
Her return as Batgirl was “New 52 happened”. It didn’t completely retcon Killing Joke, she just got a “super-surgery”, something she actively declined for years because it wasn’t fair to the average person in the old continuity. It carried over when Rebirth happened and restored most of the old continuity.
@@amystreasuresdesign the Adam West Batman ironically had more respect to the Batgirl character than the animated killing joke did and that show was a campy satire of Batman.
“Despite his long history of giving orphan a cooler ways to die”
💀
idk why people always seem to hate on alfred and batman's relationship and act like it's just something temporary. his butler is not just some person to batman....he's literally the one who took care of him when his parents died. there's even been comic books where he literally breaks down when something happens to alfred and some au comics have him even creating a tony-stark like ai to act like alfred when the guy gets killed.
Evertime Alfred died it pushes Bruce over an edge because he's pretty much his father figure that kept him grounded
Alfred is Bruce's father idgaf. He's his adopted/surrogate father (not blood-related) sure but who cares? Blood doesnt make family. Same sentiment with Bruce and his children!
Barbara was a far better character as "Oracle" than she ever was running around in a costume. Her Oracle persona was beloved by her fans and many wish they would have never retconned her into being able to walk again. There are way too many "bat people" running around and punching criminals these days. How many heroes do we have that are disabled? Her continuing on the fight despite the trauma she faced that put her in a wheelchair showed real strength.
As a persona fan putting persona + oracle = me thinking about persona 5
@@k.kharles11037 considering Futaba's codename is Navi in japanese, localization changing it to Oracle in the west is likely a Barbara reference.
It helps that they're both redheads
After playing the Arkham games I decided I wanted to get into Batman. So I watched the DCAU. Fantastic of course, but anytime the Commissioner Barbara would hint they had a relationship I'd internally squirm. Then I heard the Killing Joke was a great Batman story so I watched the movie, and not only was it a bad movie, but I got to see BatgirlxBatman done again, so I just assumed this was a canonical and common depiction of the two. It wasn't until I actually did some digging that I found out that it's not a common shipping, it's just something one writer keeps slipping into some of the most popular Batman media. Someone really needs to have a talk with him tbh
Yeah it's always that fricking one writer who brings this weird fetish
We all have a love hate relationship with Bruce Timm
It’s great
Yes! Read the Killing Joke comic! It's way better and a quick read👍
In the comics, she's closer to Bruce's age than Dick's.
Actually, Babs being paralised is great disabled representation. Especially in the superhero genre, where someone in a wheelchair is always put as the future villain or a helpless victim. All the disabled people I know love Oracle and get really angry when writers retcon her disability to randomly make her walk again, because they're taking that representation away from them. And from what I've heard from other DC fans, A huge chunk of Babs's fans are there mostly because of how unique a wheelchair-bound "chair guy" female superhero is, and how, despite her tragic backstory, she still manages to be a great hero and even be a boss to other heroes and coordinate them.
All of this to say, I understand you think it's cheap she got beaten down for a male character's arc, but don't say nobody wants this because you're ignoring all the fans who see themselves represented in Barbara and love her for it.
You don’t need representation to see yourself in a character. That notion that you need to have a character to be exactly like you to see yourself in them or identify with them is ridiculous
@@ninjafrog6966 I never said exactly like yourself. I said being disabled, which is a pretty low bar in a genre where they're always beating each other up. Booster gold, for instance, also got disabled when they ripped his arm, but it got retconned. Many characters become paralised or lose limbs or some other disability, yet they're only retconned to be perfectly fine if they're a hero, because writers don't want to deal with disabled rep and how to write authentic stories about disabled people. Only villains aren't retconned (see: Harvey Dent, for instance) because it's very easy to write a villain around a disability (vengeance, being crazy, being mentally unstable...) but it's much harder to write an authentic, heroic and earnest story about being disabled., with all the difficult conversations that can come up around it
From your comment it seems like you've never needed representation in your life because you've always considered it the statu quo. I will not assume which kind of person you are, but that's how it comes across. You don't need a character to be exactly like you to relate to them, but you need characters like you to know people like you exist, and that they're going through the same issues you are. take care.
My only problem is that a single bullet *in the gut* was enough to make her unable to walk.
We could've just had a "Oh and she was shot in the legs too BTW" or "The Joker hit her legs hard when she was unconscious to disable her, just for the *kicks* " (I'll see myself out) But nope.
She got shot in the belly like, once, and that's enough to paralyse her legs. And considering the fact she is a crime fighting vigilante, she must have a physique good enough to withstand at least 1 bullet as long as it's not in an organ where the bullet would insta-kill her.
@@pkmntrainerred4247 I do agree with that, yes. Personally, my first contact with this particular story was the Booster Gold version, where he tries to stop this event from happening. If I remember correctly, Joker beats her down really badly in that version of the story, the bullet is just the cherry on top
@@tadesubaru1383 Hm, I guess at least *one* version of the story made it believable
Writer 1: We need to find a way to give Barbara more development in the Killing Joke movie
Writer 2: I know, let’s start the movie with a 30 minute segment about her being sexually frustrated that has absolutely nothing to do with the main story
Writer 1: Brilliant!
Writer two is Brian Azarello, he unironically said that
AND I LIKED IT! Fuck off. It was a good movie.
@@hawhafunnyraffs5568 it's true what they say. live long enough and you'll see everything
never thought i'd ever meet someone who unironically liked the killing joke
@@jockeyfield1954 Sorry you don't like cynical edgy shit. You let Marvel and DC do this. They were aspirational heroes, and you let them become this. You voted with your wallet and this is where we are.
@@TupocalypseShakur Lol. Knowing Azarello's shit, it definitely come from him.
This ship is why I never got around to watching the killing joke. I was super hyped when it was first announced because of Mark Hamil's return as the joker, but then I found out that the team thought it was a great idea to add a scene with Batman and batgirl on a roof. I died a little inside that day
What's even worst is what Alan Moore was told about crippling Barbara Gordon.
I like the story and comic but I always skip that part because 😬
It just reminds me of that old jontron meme: " Why?,,,Why would you do that?,,,"
Bruce and Barbara having their privacy on a roof:
Me: ... I have so many questions.
@@airtiger4577 yeaahhh, not to mention,havin worked on city roofs before i can tell you they are usually dirty ad heck and certainly not somewhere thats ideal for romantic time lol
My one limit when it comes to romantic ships:
No large age gaps. It’s just so very wrong especially when Batgirl has already got romantic ties to Batman’s adopted son.
Agreed
The son thing is what makes it weird.
What a "Dick."
What if Dick was banging the alien at the time?
That depends on. If both parties are adults, then large age gaps is wrong. It’s wired, but not wrong if both are adults.
Bruce and barbara have only 8 years gab
And also father figure?
She had her father all the time
The only thing is that grayson and barbara were together before
That's all
At this point, if Nightwing doesn't have the best butt in the show/movie/comic, it's not Nightwing
Justifying big age gap ships by saying "They're both adults" while ignoring the fact it's almost never a 30 year old woman and 48 year old guy who met at that age, no it's nearly always an 18 year old girl and 30+ year old guy. It's almost like they're deliberately missing the point because the latter is "hotter"?
If it's consensual and they're happy, I couldn't care less, the only bedroom I care about is my own.
1 it's a cartoon
2 they are both consenting adults
i’d correct you but, plenty of people have done so before… just try to step outside of your box of “it’s just fiction” narrative because it’s a shit ton more nuanced than what you think.
also. just actually read what the original comment said instead of doing ur little “gotcha” points like that isn’t a tired viewpoint with no actual backing in reality. thx.
I agree, everyone seems to be going bonkers over this. They are both adults maybe they were both hard up from not having any in awhile. Kind of creepy since he knew her very young but strange things happen in real life. It would be interesting to see Bruce as a young 25 year old Batman get seduced by a Cougar a hot older lady 40 to 45 years old. That could be a really interesting episode if they went down that route. Personally seeing that clip of Bruce in the back of a car with Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn my god every man's wet dream scenario. Imagine the sexual tension of those 3 together. I find that far more interesting and kinky than with Batgirl. Although I still think Maven Selena Kyle's assistant would be the best overall woman for Bruce.
Bruce just entered his 30s
Barbara was 22 something
Jim gordon and thomas wayne are from the same generation not bruce
I actually want the Harley Quinn show to cover this, they're the only team I think could pull it off.
Babs: "So do any of you think Batman is kind of... hot?"
PI: "I mean, kind of. He's good kisser at least."
Harley: "Far as I'm concerned, he's basically the Joker without the sense of humor; he's nice to look at but- WAIT! Are you attracted to Batman?"
Babs: "Um, well..."
Harley: "Ew, NO! He works with your dad, he's twice your age! Look, look, it all good and fun, to fantasize about an older man f_cking bats-"
Babs: "He doesn't f_ck bats."
Harley: "Sh-sh sh-sh, grown-ups are talking; as I was saying: what you and your vibrator do are your business, until you work this out: but do _not_ act on it, it will just make everything, at best, awkward."
PI: "Plus Selina will straight up kill you."
Harley: "Really, she never seemed like the jealous type."
PI: "That's because Batman's other big ex is a super assassin leading an army of other super assassins and she's not a moron. Trust me, Catwoman be jelly."
Yeah, I can see that. Moreover, HQ writers are better with writing dialogues about ships than writing the actual ships.
There are a lot of jokes of the girls having a crush on him in the past and Batgirl is going through that phase.
Sell this to WB for the next season.
I can see this happening 😆
Ok you need to be hired because that was beautiful
To be fair, Alan Moore did later on publicly regret crippling Barbara. But this is also the guy that took a shit ton of psychedelics and worships a snake-god, so one can only ask WHY the hell didn't the editors reign him in?
From what I heard from a UA-camr, the Killing Joke was too sacred to change and they added in more controversies.
Well, Alan famously said that editor allowed him with words "Cripple the bitch" and needed some actual Batgirl fans to make her Oracle.
Yea, to be fair, the fault should be on the editors here
Honestly though, Barbara's cooler as Oracle than Batgirl
Because Alan Moore never wrote Batman and Batgirl together as a couple and the killing joke comic is perfect. It was Bruce Timm who always wanted Batman and Batgirl together. Cuz he’s wierd
I know I’m late, but i have to say, whilst the ship is disgusting, very rarely it’s handled decently, for example, the Lego Batman movie implies that Barbara is an adult by the time they meet, but in most canon, yeah this shit is horrifying
In the Lego Batman the power imbalance is also non existent too, but yeah in every other universe is a very messed ship that shouldn't be a thing
Imagine if in The Killing Joke adaption, they explored Barbara's character by having her be the one to break up Joker's crime waves. She's been defeating his goons, hounding him into a corner, and just when she feels on top of the world as a heroine defeating a major villain, he comes at her in her father's home and ends Batgirl's career. Then Batman comes in to save Gordon and hopefully achieve some justice for Barbara, like he keeps doing for others.
That would actually give her depth. Naw bro they dont want that brilliance
@@incognitofool6516 That's why we should imagine because they sure as heck won't
Not a bad idea on paper but wouldn't that kind of undermine the point behind the Joker's crippling of Barbara?
In the comic nothing implies that the Joker knows Barbara is Batgirl, he only targeted her because he wanted to prove drive Gordon as mad as he is and he knew crippling Barbara and taking pictures of it to force Gordon to be constantly reminded of it would help him in that regard. So while I respect the idea and I think it's not bad, it doesn't fit that scene and why it happens
@@cdawg0902 Except it could. What I was thinking is he definitely doesn't shoot Barbara because she's Batgirl. Batgirl's disrupted his crime, so he needs a new hobby, which he decides will be driving Gordon insane.
@@MegaKnight2012 but wouldn't that undermine the whole point behind The Killing Joke? Joker didn't target Jim because he had nothing going on, he targeted Jim because he wanted to prove his point that he isn't any special compared to anyone else and that anyone, regardless of who or what they are, can be driven to lunacy because of one day.
While the idea itself is good on paper, I don't think Joker's reasoning for shooting Barbara needs more reason then what's giving in the comic itself
Honestly feels like a creepy fantasy self-insert. Considering the writers mentioned are 30+ 😐
Oh Bruce Timm is a insane fetishists.
He had Nightwing fuck harley quinn and then let harley quinn fart in the batcar a couple of minutes later.
Sus 📷🤨
I doubt its a fantasy since the relationship very quickly gets real messy and fucks up a whole lotta relationships
@@wuwop.777 Maybe thats also part of the fantasy you never know 🤔
millenial writing at its finest lmao
It’s weird that Timm and others tried to make this work and yet Batman/Wonder Woman seems to be the better ship. I mean I wouldn’t care if it’s canon or not, but it’s weird it’s never attempted again. And I’m not including Catwoman or Talia
Right? With all the focus on Wonderbat, why switch tracks? Especially since it's such a great relationship
and we straight up don't even know what happened to catwoman. she just evaperated out of the timeline.
I’m not a fan of it, but it is better. Even the recent Justice League Infinity comic has more Wonderbat in it.
Any incarnation of the Main Trio getting together (Wonderbats, WonderSupes, or hell even SuperBat) turns out weird for me. Not *nearly* as weird and creepy as BatBabs, but still just weird. Mostly because when it gets followed through (usually in Frank Miller's books) it's fucked up and explicitly denigrates one or more of the cast. WonderSupes is Superman actively rejecting his humanity to embrace power fantasy of dominating the world's strongest woman (and all that entails.) Wonderbats meanwhile is Diana being weirdly *very* into Bruce despite them clashing over just about every detail and philosophy. It also usually results in Bats saving a damseled Wondie over and over again.
They're icons, but also professional. Can we not just have them be friends without the fucking on the side and making cross-canon love triangles between the three?
@@JacksonJinn the only time wondersupes worked was in kingdom come
24:12 - Oh gods I've never seen that interview, that just makes it so much worse. Like I know they generally have Brucey be rather messed up in the head, but having him be a literal predator towards someone that they are implying he sees as a daughter is just such disgusting character assassination. Babs deserves better than this.
Making Batman have sex with a mentee (especially one who's so much younger than him) lowkey destroys everything heroic about him. I don't like Batman and Catwoman together, but at least that relationship doesn't kill Batman's character.
Agree, I’m more of a Bruce and Zatanna guy
I wouldn't call batman a predator.
@@missingdiamond6676 yeah its not him being a predator, honestly I didn't mind their relationship as long as Barbara was old enough and if the writers handled it correctly.
@@Nhancee they didn't
@@ValGOPLock what you mean? I mean i know they didn't handle it right
I usually try not to be too judgmental about ship, but everything about Batman x batgirl is just WRONG on so many levels. It’s probably the one ship that’s even more problematic then Joker x Harley Quinn, and JokQuinn was specifically designed to be toxic AF.
wow.. imagine trying to make a relationship and having it be more problematic then a relationship purposefully built to be problematic... then trying to _put. it. in. light._
LIKe... *nO???*
@@stephaniecourteoreille5972 OH NO! WHY HAVE DRAMA! WHY HAVE CARTOONS!
You didn't care when all the aspirational heroes became cynical twisted septic versions of themselves. But as soon as they have off screen sex, its a travesty. THAT was the bridge too far!
Hey I agree with you big time! Batman is like her father figure of a mentor and Batgirl is his young underling. Timm NEVER should've started this sick ship between them in the first place!
@@hawhafunnyraffs5568
I just keep seeing you throughout this comment section Jesus how are you this oblivious.
Why is Batman x Batgirl wrong?
The fact that the first Bat-girl (Bette Kane) was introduced solely to dispel rumors that Dick and Bruce were together adds a bizarre layer to this.
And Kathy Kane (also fridged by Ra's), and even Donna Troy was created so nobody would think the Teen Titans were experimenting with their sexuality.
Then Marv Wolfman had Dick lose his virginity to an alien while also giving him a gay best friend (whose father molested one of the Titans, if we want to talk about Bad Ideas).
@@jonbrewer297 what the heck that’s freaking weird
@@Superbatmanbro I mean, they didn't give the Robin costume pants until the 1990s!
Dick and Bruce are heck a lot funnier and probs better than Batgirl and Batman tbh
Barbara having a crush is perfectly fine. It could even be played for laughs. Have her constantly subtly hitting on batman, and have him either turn her down annoyed every time, or have him completely ignore her and play oblivious. Could be a fun dynamic for a while. FOR A WHILE. She doesn't need to crush on him for years of her adult life and never move on. She's one of the smartest women in the world, she should realize at some point how fucked up her little crush is. And she definitely shouldn't betray one the greatest men in comics, Dick Grayson. How is it that of the two redheads he's dated, the only one that fucked around behind his back WAS'NT the super hot alien who's constantly characterized as a massive slut? Riddle me that. Babs should be better than that. She IS better than that. People at WB need to learn to say no to Bruce Tim.
I'm a personal trainer at a gym and I get female clients all the time mixed different ages who usually develop a crush on me or even flirt after a few sessions, some are even taken/married. It's common for women to do this because I'm in a power mentor like position over them while teaching them, but it doesn't mean I reciprocate their advances back because I try my hardest to keep it professional and not making any potential mistakes that could tarnish my reputation if they say anything about me.
Basically it's completely understandable that Barbara would develop attraction for Bruce from their mentorship, but Bruce acting on it was wrong and not a good character arc for him.
You're making the right choice by rejecting their advances. That's just gonna get awkward and messy in one way or another,even more if there's cheating involved,and either way there's also gonna be a lot of shit talking. Not worth the drama,honestly.
Girls see flirting diff to guys tho.
Did they straight up try and fuck tho?
Did you watch your parents get murdered in front of you at a young age, and then chose to spend the rest of your life turning that grief into a calling to save lives? No? Then it’s not really an apt comparison. Good luck with the cross fit though I’m sure everyone you meet wants to hear about it.
Yeah a person with a video game walking dead profile picture is Forsure not no gym trainer😂stfu you troll
@@ErikDayne I don't know what parent murder has to do with sleeping with your mentee unless your point is that untreated trauma caused Batman to make bad choices? But the saving lives bit you added makes me think you're justifying it? I'm not really sure what you're arguing against here.
I just don't get the logic of this ship. With all the other love interests Bruce Wayne have in the DCAU (Selina Kyle, Wonder Woman, Talia and Zatanna) why did Timm decide to do a romance with Barbra and Bruce (which is wrong for so many reasons) instead of just deciding to settle on one of Bruce other romances (preferably Selina or Diana).
Diana is an invincible woman, Selina is a wild card.
Let's go for Gordon's daughter cause she wasn't introduced like that in the comics
The dude seems to be a pedophile, that's why.
Well it’s implied Barbara is attracted to older men in the dcau with dick Grayson being described as puppy love and the relationship with her husband in beyond being a much older man. It’s problematic especially the comic I don’t know why timm is such a huge fan of it
It is like cholesterol. There is good and bad. Bangin, your Best Friend Hawt Daughter is good cholesterol.
@@undeadblizzard no, it's bad cholesterol.
I have blurry memories of the time i watched the killing joke with my dad in the living room, we watch DC and marvel movies together, its the way we bond. (i was 6-8 i think) THAT scene came up in it, he forgot that it existed. I asked what was happening, he fast-forward through that small scene. I can only realize now how uncomfortable it was for a dad to realize his 6-8 year old daughter almost watch that, and for her to ask why batman was touching batgirls butt. watching this made me remember that...
Lol he probably should have checked the rating of the film first.
@@tigerfestivals5137 maybe he watched it and forgot about the Barbara part
People tend to do mistakes out of just forgetting details
@@lagtduckgirl7993 the film is rated R, though, he'd have to be negligent to not realize that it's not a good idea to show it to a 6-8 year old anyway
@@tigerfestivals5137 again, some people forget, plus they said that their dad bonded over DC movies and they aren't all sunshine and rainbows
So again
Maybe he just forgot
And it's not like he made her watch it in the end
This ship just SCREAMS unintentional grooming.
I don't think that's unintentional
Also Bruce Timm has said in interviews that he liked the ship *because* it's wrong. Because it's"interesting". Except that's a pile of shit because he never does anything interesting with it. Throughout the New Adventures and Batman beyond, he spends most of the time dedicated to the ship as a way to be cute and/or sexy. No one really calls it out. Alfred sure as hell doesn't have a problem with it. Tim is just the clueless kid who doesn't like romance yet. And Dick, in the show, is constantly just around to be Bruce's beta. The loser. The cuck. And in Batman beyond, he even makes it seem like something Bruce and Babs are PROUD of. No regrets. Even implying Babs was Bruce's true love. It's clear Bruce Timm just liked the taboo. Liked younger women. Liked the idea of Batman being such a stud, he was able to bang the forbidden fruit. And she asked for it.
Not to mention it seemed "cool" in the 90s to make any adaptation of Dick Grayson just a "lesser" to Batman in every way.
Thank goodness the relationship isn't mentioned at all in the Justice league show. And they retcon it to be Wonder Woman who is love interest.
Catwoman > Wonderwoman but yeah I agree completely with the rest of this
I’d rather that Bruce Timm had had more moments of Bruce with Selina and Diana than Barbara. Bruce had better moments with Diana and Selina. I know that so many rather Diana with Clark, but the relationship that she has with Batman was interesting, even Snyder reconizde that.
thiis
looks just like a fetish, this ship is ain't just a dumpster on fire IS BORING, every time they use it's mediocre. Bruce Tim says he likes it because it's incorrect and presumably "adds layers" and "possibilities' ' and "subtones" and they had "potential"... I've never seen the writers do anything interesting with that couple. I've never seen it improve the personality or development of any of these characters (what's more, it's superficial and irrelevant)
He said that about Dick and Harley. Which is more because he was drugged at the time.
Which I also hate. Seriously There are three women who I absolutely hate the idea of Batman being with (Batgirl, Lois Lane and Wonder Woman) and Bruce Timm put Batman with all three of em which means if I ever meet him in real life I’m gonna punch him in the face.
Me when I was little:”I love Batgirl because she has blue eyes and red hair like me!”
Me now: “Dont y’all nasty writers touch Cass!”
If they touch Cass, I’m tracking them down…
@@SteelSpurs I will bring the pitchforks, you bring the torches.
I also have red hair and blue eyes. Cool!
😂
Got about six minutes into this video and I just remember seeing this on the TV Tropes page for Franchise Original Sin.
There were hints as far back as her first two-parter showing in Batman: The Animated Series that Batgirl had feelings for Batman. Later episodes featured, for instance, a Dream Sequence where Batgirl saves Batman, then they attempt to kiss (before Robin interrupts the dream). Most people didn't really mind it at the time, since it pretty easily read as a Precocious Crush and there were no real signs that Batman reciprocated. Later material helmed by Bruce Timm, such as various post-JLU comics and the infamous adaptation of The Killing Joke, made the pairing canon, to generally very poor reception.
Agreed
It's very normal for younger people to find older people attractive and they shouldn't be blamed for it but when it's reciprocated is when we have a problem
Timm never worked on any post -JLU comics, and even Sarcastic Chorus outright says they’re not canon. Well, Justice League Infinity is, but that has nothing to do with this pairing.
I'm just glad audiences reacted as they should have.
In the early Batman shows where Adam West played Batman, batgirl was a smart, levelheaded woman who’s main fighting schtick was her really high kicks (I mean it, rewatch those fight scenes, she’s always kicking bad guys), and she and Batman had a mutual respect for each-other, and nothing more. Which is why they worked together so well. Batman had much more chemistry with Catwoman than with Batgirl, and I think that was intentional because there is “Man” in Batman and “Woman” in Catwoman, whereas “girl” in batgirl implies a younger person, just like in Robin’s “Boy wonder”. I’m not saying that this means Robin has to be paired with Batgirl either though, just that it does imply that Batgirl is younger than Batman.
And it’s a crime they didn’t do anything more with Marsha Queen of diamonds and her Aunt Hilda.
I knew there was a reason I preferred Dick with Starfire. It's because this stuck out in my memory and made me Hella uncomfortable. Well that and Kori seemed a better match for Dick's personality.
Honestly I am surprised there isn't a war between Batcat fans and Wonderbat fans. With how big the fandom is this could be Ww2 of the shipping wars and I would have LOVED to watch it while secretly shipping Batcat.
Huh. It is surprising, isn't it
Probably because shipping in comics depends on the quailty of writing
Helps that the comics universe gsts reset now and then
@@falconeshield and that there are like thousand parallel universes.
Because we all know Batman has a harem. There really isn't a point to bicker. Batman chooses to be a loner most of the time. At that point, people just want him in a healthy relationship and it doesn't matter who.
@@redshepherd32 hell, even Cheetah would have been good if they had helthy relationship!
This reminds me of the original age gap problem with Mr. Fantastic (Reed) and the Invisible Woman (Sue). In the comics, they first met when Reed (and Ben) rented a room from Sue's parents while Reed and Ben are going to college.
The original flashback for this has Sue being depicted as not even in high school but crushing on the older Reed.
Yeah, you can see the problem nowadays but guess back then, nobody thought it was a problem until the 00s were the story got updated and now Sue is de[octed as either a junior or senior and Reed is entering his 1st year of college.
As for the actual topic, the only 2 Barbara/Bruce that I don't think have any creep factor would be potetially LEGO Batman and the pre Crisis Batgirl....As you mentioned, in both cases, Barbara is way closer in age to Bruce than she is to Dick and in both cases, she and Bruce don;t know each other beforehand AND she never really is his protege/student
For anyone tryng to defend the killing jokes treatment of batgirl, Alan Moore admitted that he regrets how he treated her in it
Alan Moore worships a snake god and tried to destroy humanity with a comic.
I kind of dont listen to modern Alan anymore
@@guilhermehank4938 I'm rather hesitant to ask for context.
@@Vigriff No context. Alan is a real life self proclaimed wizard. No cap
When I think about things like this that exists in comics, Alan Moore is the first suspect for me.
@@thelostmessenger
That and some people believe/joke he and Grant Morrison, who apparently practices chaos magic, are rivals.
I love batman the animated series, but the fact they made that ship canon is literally the WORST part about it
God; this one right here. This is some next level "the author's ship" material.
Bruce Tim out here willing to burn the whole house down, so the bats could bang lol
This isn't where he burned the house down.
That would be the movie with Harley Quinn and Swamp Thing and Harley rapes Dick. When I said I wanted this to be more loyal to the source material, I didn't want THAT!
The stain on the BTAS universe. Almost perfect, then Batgirl shows up flirting
Remember when adult Black Cat threw up on teenage Spiderman once he revealed he was a teen, because the reveal she had made out with a minor was so wrong to her?
Yeah, stop doing this cradle robbing bullshit.
Difference between this situation that one is Batman and Batgirl are both adults while Ultimate Spider-man was a teenager and Ultimate Black Cat was an adult.
I miss Ultimate Spider-man
Missing the point a bit. She was disgusted not because she figured out Spidey was a minor (afterall je could've been 18 for all she knew), but because this big, shiny hero who she imagined to be a sexy, good looking young man turned out to be a pimple ridden, awkward teenager. It was in similiar spirit to what happened in the main universe were she wanted peter to wear his Spidey mask 24/7 because the sight of this "loser" shattered her dream image about the webhead, hence why their relationship fell apart later on.
@@EnerKaizer black cat is a terrible human being but she's sexy who cares ?
What movie was that?