Cool video. In the early 90s I used to work as graphic artist for C64 games. Our team (based in Germany) knew that the games in the NTSC space had a different timing, or rather fewer raster lines due to the higher frame rate and therefore less computing time. But there were no US systems within reach, so nobody really thought about it. Various C64 games (e.g. Hawkeye or Turrican) that used the PAL raster time close to the limit therefore don't work at all on NTSC computers. Conversely, it was less noticeable in US productions on PAL-C64. If there was flickering, we are talking about just few pixels on the screen. In Maniac Mansion, the moon on PAL computers is more like a melon shape. You are not aware that the music plays slower when there is no practical comparison. Today I am part of a homebrew development team and it really is a very different time. Thanks to emulators you can actually always test for all systems. Back then the community was regionally limited, today I talk to people all over the world. One example was the implementation of Eye of the Beholder, where we were unable to reliably test the game on original C128-NTSC hardware and had contacted a UA-camr (retrobits) to see if he could help us. Something like that was hardly possible in the 80s/90s.
That's incredible insight! It’s fascinating to hear about the technical limitations you faced in the early '90s while developing C64 games, especially regarding the differences between PAL and NTSC. Those timing issues with raster lines and how games like *Hawkeye* or *Turrican* didn't function properly on NTSC systems really highlight the complexities of cross-region development back then. And it's so true about the difference today-emulators and global communication have completely changed how testing and development work. It’s amazing to see how the homebrew community has evolved. Thanks for sharing your experience, and it's great to know you're still actively contributing to the scene!
My experience is the PAL SID sounded ridiculously bad- not just due to speed of playback but because the waveform seemed altered (not just pitch). I think this was because (maybe) on some songs/SFX the waveforms (the DSR part of the envelope) would play out fully if the SID update was at 50Hz. But at 60Hz the SID registers would be updated sooner thereby cutting off the programmed DSR and making the waveform sound odd. IMHO, tying audio updates to video refresh, is, IMHO (in most cases) really dumb. Use the CIA timers as an agnostic timing source instead.
@@saganandroid4175 I can't confirm that, but it depends a lot on the chiptune and the SID chip used. But I think the biggest difference in sound comes from whether you play music on an NTSC-C64 that was written for a PAL-C64 or vice versa. Today, this is usually tested against each other (e.g. with the homebrew version of Sonic the Hedgehog, which I was also involved in). In the 80s, nobody really questioned such things. btw I have owned 8 different PAL-SIDs over the years and only one of them had problems with the sound. btw I have a few recordings of my own hardware on my YT channel as an example (e.g. from the demo C=Bit 18, PAL 8580 or alternatively from the tune Armalyte Revisited, PAL 6581R3).
@@saganandroid4175 yes, I believe that. In Europe it was a little different, or rather the C64 had its peak in popularity between 1986 and 90 and was influenced quite strongly by local productions. But the differences in sound in US games were never questioned here, which also has to do with the fact that from a time perspective the music routines were considered rather "oldschool" (as far as one can tell, there were normally no NTSC computers within reach that could be used to objectively compare the sound. Unfortunately there was also hardly any contact with the C64 community in the USA).
I don't have a C64 anymore, but use VICE and recently got this inexpensive LG monitor which can sync to both 50 and 60 hz. One of my favorite games growing up was Delta (sold as Delta Patrol in the U.S.) It also had graphics (for power ups) which were cut off in NTSC, but only about halfway so you could still tell them apart fortunately. ;)
That’s awesome that you’ve set up VICE with a monitor that can handle both 50 and 60 Hz-really brings out the best in both NTSC and PAL! Delta/Delta Patrol is such a classic, and it’s funny how the NTSC version cut off those graphics. Glad it didn’t take away from the experience! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks. Very interesting video that talks back to me. I lived in the US and in Europe during the 80's and I had a Commodore 64 on both continents. I could notice these differences but I could not explain why. I remember that one day, I bought Bard's Tale II at a local book shop in the US, and it worked fine on my Commodore 64 in the US. I brought the game with me while going to Europe, I tried it on several systems and it crashed each time. I thought that it was corrupt or damaged but it was not. Back in the US, it worked fine again.
What an incredible story! It’s fascinating how the differences between NTSC and PAL systems impacted gameplay like that. The compatibility issues could be so puzzling back then-working perfectly in one place and completely crashing in another! The C64 really showed us the quirks of cross-continent gaming.
I'm from Argentina, our case is probably the worst possible, as we are a PAL country (and not just regular, European PAL, but PAL-N, with a different color and sound sub carriers). Most of our imports back then were from the States. In '85, Drean, a local company that made washing machines, got a deal with Commodore to release the C64 (and C16), and these were PAL, when there was already a large installed base of NTSC machines. This didn't stop small shops selling NTSC machines, competing both on price and on quality, as Drean's C64s were quite dodgy depending on the batch and as more parts started to be produced locally, by then most TVs were multi-norm. We had almost no legal software releases, most of what could be bought in stores were pirate copies, getting one that worked properly was a game of chance for both types of machines. This led to the evolution of local hacking groups that "fixed" games, as Dreans had timing differences with Euro PALs. I had a NTSC machine, my best friend had a Drean, so some games played better at his, some played better at mine. So, I totally agree with you on this video, some games were impossible to play unless fixed even if there were no glitches, Dragon's Lair is the first one that comes to my mind, on an NTSC machine the first stage is hard as hell. This is still an issue today with TheC64 mini, as the US and Euro versions are frame rate locked, unlike the "maxi" that lets you choose 50 or 60Hz. Shameless plug: I made a fake update for the US minis, that can be easily found if you do a search for "c64 mini ntsc to pal", it's both at thec64community forum and pinned at my fb page retrografxdotcom
@@iwanttocomplain nope, afaik PAL-N is 50Hz, sound carrier and channel width is the same as NTSC, so an NTSC source gives us audio but no color. The one that's 60Hz is Brazil's PAL-M
That’s a fascinating story! The PAL-N situation in Argentina really does sound like a unique challenge, especially with the mix of NTSC machines being sold alongside local PAL systems like Drean’s C64. It’s amazing how the local hacking groups stepped in to fix games and make them playable across different systems. I can imagine how frustrating it must’ve been trying to find software that worked properly given all the different formats. Dragon's Lair being near impossible on NTSC makes sense with the timing issues. I didn’t know about the fake update for TheC64 mini-that’s a cool solution for modern users! Thanks for sharing your experience and your work on this!
Thanks so much! I’m glad you found the video valuable, especially from a fellow Commodore enthusiast in Europe. It’s great to hear that the content resonates after 40 years of being a true commodorian! Appreciate your support!
Glad you enjoyed it! Emulators are a great way to really see the differences between PAL and NTSC. Hope you find the comparison interesting-thanks for watching!
I had no idea that it used to affect C-64 as well, I have experience of PAL/NTSC differences for Sega Mega Drive, Saturn, Dreamcast and PS1. You would need not only dedicated version of the console/modded/upgraded with special cartridge but also CRT TV with dedicated refresh rate. For example i cannot imagine completing Sonic the hedgehog 1 and 2 in NTSC versions as i could barely keep up with PAL.
It’s interesting how widespread the impact of PAL/NTSC differences were across so many consoles, not just the C64! Your experience with Sega Mega Drive, Saturn, Dreamcast, and PS1 highlights the challenges that retro gamers faced, especially when needing specific hardware, modded systems, and even dedicated CRT TVs just to experience games the way they were meant to be played. It sounds like you’ve had some challenging moments with NTSC versions, especially with games like Sonic the Hedgehog. It’s impressive how much these regional differences could affect gameplay and completion, especially for action-packed games that require quick reflexes.
There's some games where it's the opposite. NTSC games where I grew up playing in PAL. One example is Donkey Kong (Atarisoft version). Mario is so slow. Whereas when you play it on an NTSC C64 (in my case, on VICE) Mario walk at a faster (albeit still pretty slow) pace.
That’s a great example! *Donkey Kong* is definitely one of those games where you can really notice the speed difference between PAL and NTSC. It's interesting how Mario feels sluggish on PAL but moves faster on NTSC, even if still not super quick. It's always fascinating to see how these regional differences affect gameplay experiences. Thanks for pointing that out!
@@FloppyDeepDive Like you, I didn't understand the two (or is it 3 when you include SECAM?) different standards until modern times. I assumed that's just how the game was. Actually to clarify, I understood we lived in a PAL region and that North America was NTSC, but I just thought that meant we needed to buy different TV sets. I didn't realise the computers connecting to those sets also had to be different and then in turn the programmers releasing software for the two different computers needed to modify their code. The 80s were so mysterious... If we didn't know something, a lot of the time we just spent time wondering about it given there was no Internet to give us instant answers. Or in this case, we just didn't know what we didn't know.
Somehow I managed to dodge this as a kid. It wasn't until I got back into Commodore stuff that I became aware of the PAL difference. Makes a huge difference running the software on its intended version. Have you tried Mayhem in Monsterland in NTSC mode? IIRC, there are game breaking glitches in it. It's PAL only.
I didn't even know I didn't dodge it. I just loved collecting games. People said there was NTSC fixes. I was lucky to get access to whatever I got my hands on. Local BBS’s was my only option. I haven't tried Mayhem in Mosterland. I'll give it a go. Thanks for always commenting my friend!
Same but the other way around, being that I'm from the UK and the tv standard was PAL. I never noticed any game being too fast or slow, they seemed about right for how the game was intended to be, but it was a long time ago, so maybe a game or two did slip through, but I'm certain that almost all the games I played as a kid on the C64, seemed to play as intended, without any of the flickering issue or music sounding out of place. But I have to say, I'm a bit surprised that most games didn't change the internal timing of the game speed when it detects it's running on PAL or NTSC, I can't imagine it being that difficult for them to do. On another note, I have noticed as I got older, games on PAL systems seem to get less slow-downs then NTSC games, probably because it's running at 50hz, but that was supposed to be corrected with the NTSC C64 hardware running at a slightly higher clock rate, but I've also noticed with some of the newer games being released on the C64 that run fine on the PAL 64 but get slow-downs on the NTSC one. PAL does run at a higher resolution back then over NTSC but I highly doubt games on the C64 could take advantage of that, and I do notice that with tv contents from the 80's and 90's, PAL contents tends to look cleaner whereas NTSC looks a bit blurry, but today, that's not an issue, most tv's support most of the standards around the world and things just work, and maybe this is subjective, I've played games on PAL and NTSC displays, to me, they more or less looked just as smooth as each other. In any case, when playing games from the past, you really want to play them as it was intended to be played, weather PAL or NTSC, and most displays today support both.
@@paul1979uk2000 I feel quite lucky we had PAL in UK because it has better colour and detail and interval blank data bandwidth, giving you more options when making games and an easier decoding and coding process for engineers. Because ntsc is 29.9, with the last .1% containing the colour information. So the maths can get a bit confusing sometimes whearas PAL50 is closer to a whole number of 50hz. That is, the subcarrier of 60 is divided by two on both for an interlaced 25 or 30 for broadcast. The ntsc broadcast is for some reason not a 1:1 aspect. I get a bit confused if micro-computers output an interlaced or progressive signal. but I suppose it's interlaced if output to a consumer tv.
Totally get that! Once you experience the faster NTSC speed, it’s hard to go back. Turbo Lotus Esprit must have felt like a completely different game! I bet it added a whole new level of excitement to the gameplay.
It really is wild, right? It's surprising to think that they released C64 games in the US in PAL mode without much thought to how they’d run on NTSC hardware. Definitely makes for an interesting topic when looking back at those days!
It's amazing how much of a difference even just the music makes. It has an effect on how the games feel as well as the emotion/mood they're trying to depict. I believe that alone can have an effect on how the game is played. It's great to see these PAL region games getting some love from overseas. Awesome video 👌
I couldn’t agree more! The music really does set the tone and can completely change how a game feels. It’s amazing how it impacts the mood and even the way we play. I’m glad to show some love for these PAL games-they definitely deserve it! Thanks for watching, and I appreciate the kind words!
Interesting that your G&G floppy contains a PAL version. Capcom did in fact release a proper NTSC version here in the US that plays perfectly on an NTSC machine. You can grab the image from the C64PP on the Internet Archive. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for the heads-up! I wasn’t aware that there was a proper NTSC version of *Ghosts 'n Goblins* out there-I'll definitely check that out on the C64PP. It’s great to know there’s a version that plays perfectly on NTSC hardware. Appreciate the tip, and thanks for watching!
@@FloppyDeepDive Under download options, there is a show all button, it will show all available files to download. You will want one of the zip files or if you just want one file, you can click on "show contents" and select the file you want. If you choose the nbz version, you will need nib tools to uncompress the files.
Awesome video and quite an eye opener! It's so interesting that some games were essentially released in North America as PAL. Agreed, that some of those games are actually much more playable when you play them in PAL; however, its always been a rush playing games like Commando at a higher speed with the faster tempo music right! Always enjoy your content Tom!
Thank you! It really is fascinating how some games ended up being released as PAL in North America, and I completely agree-certain games just feel better at the PAL speed. But yeah, playing *Commando* at a higher speed with that fast-paced music definitely gives a different kind of adrenaline rush! Glad you’re enjoying the content, and I appreciate the support!
Funny. In the very early days (1983/1984) the PAL users (me) had more problems playing games that were not released officialy for PAL. Later it changed because a lot of stuff was primary released in Europe.
That’s really interesting! It’s funny how things shifted over time. In the early '80s, PAL users like yourself were struggling with games not optimized for PAL, and then Europe became the primary release region for so much of the later content. It just goes to show how dynamic the gaming landscape was back then, with different regions experiencing the same systems in very different ways. Thanks for sharing that insight!
I would have liked to have seen the differences between the PAL-on-NTSC version and the dedicated NTSC version. You mention Commando - did they fix the flicker? Slow down the music? Make it easier? Or any other differences not just related to the hardware. Anyway, just a suggestion that might make a good video. 🙂 I'm aware of the different games between the regions - like Bionic Commando, After Burner, Ikari Warriors - but not differences in ports.
Nice vid.Thanks. I find the odd cropping, different screen sizes and colour differences to be needlessly distracting considering your focus was on the differences between PAL/NTSC though. But again let me say it is a very good vid and I learned something I never considered before. Subbed.
I'm surprised that they didn't add a couple of no-op pauses to the NTSC versions to get the speed right, although I guess that wouldn't work with the music. It's much worse the other way around, where the PAL release is painfully slow with black bars. I'm sure there were also a few US arcade conversions made on the C64 - it would be interesting to compare them with the UK versions.
You bring up a great point! Adding no-op pauses could’ve helped with the speed, but as you said, syncing with the music would’ve been tricky. It’s definitely worse when the PAL version runs slow with those black bars. I think comparing US arcade conversions with the UK versions would be a really interesting topic-it would highlight how each region handled these limitations and differences. Thanks for the suggestion!
That’s awesome! I actually have a Tandy 1000sx in my collection too. The C64 Mini and Maxi are fun to mess around with, but of course, there’s nothing like a real C64. Let me know how it goes when you dive in!
3:09 well you talked over a lot of it, but it's not just speed and pitch that differ (pitch is relative so not a big deal) but instruments and sound FX etc often get screwed up and clipped because the PAL-centric creators assume the DSR is still doing it's thing, but, if the SID update is (foolishly usually) tied to video refresh, and the system is 60 rather than 50HZ, there is a shorter interval between SID register updates. So the DSR envelope never fully plays out before another SID write comes. There's rarely a legit excuse for not using the CIA as the interrupt source for SID music/FX instead of the video scan rate.
That’s a great technical breakdown of the SID sound issues on NTSC! You’re absolutely right-it’s not just about pitch but how the envelope plays out when sound effects and instruments get cut short because of the difference in refresh rates. Tying the SID update to the video refresh often leads to those awkward issues when moving between 50Hz and 60Hz systems. Using the CIA for the interrupt would avoid this entirely, yet it seems to be overlooked. It’s frustrating when developers don’t account for these differences, especially when it’s an easy fix!
I thought you did a great job in showing and describing the differences between PAL games experienced across the pond. It does not seem like much or any care was given when British games were published in the US. I know that many US games were published in PAL regions. Are there less issues when importing that way around? Another thing I have heard is that PAL homebrew is a little easier to program even today as there are more CPU cycles per frame making it easier to make a smoother game. As a result, many European coded homebrew games are recommended or exclusively PAL only. I think this topic is quite interesting.
Thanks for the kind words! It’s true that when British games were published in the US, sometimes it felt like not much care went into making sure they worked well for NTSC systems. Interestingly, importing US games to PAL regions often resulted in fewer issues since PAL systems had more CPU cycles per frame to work with. You’re absolutely right about PAL homebrew being a bit easier to program for this reason-those extra CPU cycles make it easier to optimize and create smoother gameplay, which is why so many European-coded homebrew games are PAL-exclusive. It’s definitely a fascinating topic, and I’m glad you found it interesting too!
Interesting video. Of course the US version of Alien Syndrome is fixed so the scrolling does keep up with your player movement and you don't keep hitting the end of the screen like on the original PAL release making it unplayable. Also, even though it's only cosmetic, Space Harrier US release has raster bars on the floor and the raster colours for OutRun are better choices than the PAL original releases of both those games. So it's not all bad for NTSC owners. I'd love to play Alien Syndrome properly but no PAL fix as far as I know for the NTSC release (but it might be incompatible with my SD2IEC I don't know).
Thanks for sharing that! It's interesting to hear how the US version of *Alien Syndrome* fixed the scrolling issue, making it more playable compared to the PAL version. Also, good call on the raster bar differences in *Space Harrier* and the better color choices in *OutRun* for NTSC-it's great to see that it’s not all bad for NTSC owners! I hope you can find a solution to play *Alien Syndrome* properly without issues on your SD2IEC. It's always a challenge to get everything working perfectly, but it’s part of the fun of retro computing!
@@FloppyDeepDive Most developers were up against incredibly short timescales, I think it only took Chris Butler minutes to add the raster bars on the floor for Space Harrier which makes all the difference. Just gives the developer to make small changes between PAL and NTSC release dates whilst making sure the code ran properly on the 60hz C64 I guess. Keep up the good work anyway :)
Good eye! At first glance, it does look a bit like a Sinclair C5, but I think it’s actually supposed to be a go-kart in the game. Fun detail though-thanks for pointing it out!
The Amiga with a RGB monitor could easily switch back and forth. Of course, with emulators and the C64, it eliminates the issue. We had like 5000 games for the C64 over 7-8 years all from a local C64 user group that met once a month. Then I got an Amiga 500 and then finally a A3000, which looked so good with no flicker on a cheap PC monitor.
That’s awesome! Emulators definitely make things more convenient, but I’m a big fan of using the original hardware and floppy disks whenever I can-it just brings back that authentic retro feel. Nothing beats the experience of using the actual machine. But I get it, emulation has its place, especially when it comes to preserving those thousands of games. Thanks for sharing your story!
Americans also missed out on the Master System along with 8 bit computers. All the best Master System games came from the PAL region 1990-1996 when the US had already cancelled new releases after 1990. Hence why it's so underestimated in the US compared to the NES. The NES is not revered anywhere near as much in western europe as US culture.
That’s a great point about the Master System! It’s fascinating how PAL regions got such amazing support for the system well into the ‘90s, while the US missed out. I agree that the NES is more iconic in the US, but in Europe, the Master System had a much stronger foothold. Thanks for bringing up this interesting comparison!
This is why I LOVE the misterfpga project. Combined with different SID types and drive speed updates like DolphinDOS, it’s really a playground of hardware. I remember hearing about dolphindos, but it required some intrusive hardware mods and Epyx FastLoad was “good enough”. Really fun to explore the variations without repairing my original C64s - and I get to play some awesome games on the zx-spectrum and BBC micro that I never knew about
That’s awesome! The MiSTer FPGA project really does open up a ton of possibilities for reliving those old hardware experiences without having to modify the originals. DolphinDOS is a beast, but yeah, it needed some serious modding. Epyx FastLoad was definitely the more accessible option back then. It’s so cool that MiSTer allows you to explore all those systems, including the ZX Spectrum and BBC Micro-there’s so much retro gold on those platforms!
Thanks, that was a good comparison. Will there be a part two? 😊 What about games like Out Run or Enforcer? Enforcer also flickered in the PAL version when many enemies where on screen
I am pretty sure most demos are in PAL format aswell. I am lucky enough to have PAL and NTSC mainboards. I also have a Mister FPGA and a couple of JVC 50/60 hz CRT monitors so I get the best of both worlds. Its a rabbit hole to dive down. I live in the UK and have always found NTSC kids to have quicker reaction times due to the faster games. It litterally made you guys better at games. I wonder what it would have been like if the world had settled on 55 hz as a standard.
That’s awesome you’ve got both PAL and NTSC setups along with a Mister FPGA! It really does let you experience the best of both worlds. I’ve heard the same thing about reaction times-those faster NTSC games really pushed you. It’s interesting to think about what could’ve happened if there was a global standard like 55Hz. Definitely a rabbit hole, but it’s fun to dive into these what-ifs!
Glad you enjoyed the comparison! PAL definitely has its advantages, and Europe certainly got some of the best versions of these games. It’s always fun to see the differences between the two formats. Thanks for watching, matey!
I recently got a Kawari and I now don't have to swap out to my PAL C64 to play scene demos and modern PAL games. NTSC50 is what really helps, since I can use PAL on my NTSC CRT monitors.
While Green Beret was definitely a nightmare to play on NTSC, I actually prefer the music and gameplay of Paperboy and Giana Sister sped up. I remember the first time I saw PAL gameplay footage of Giana, I was like wtf so slow. It's funny I remember the speed but not the flickering. Though a lot of my games were preceded by cracktros, by folks like Fairlight, that often stated "fixed for NTSC" so that could account for differences in experience.
Green Beret was definitely rough on NTSC! I totally get what you’re saying about Paperboy and Giana Sisters being more enjoyable sped up-sometimes the faster pace on NTSC really adds to the experience. And yeah, seeing PAL gameplay for the first time after being used to NTSC can feel like everything is in slow motion. I also remember seeing those Fairlight cracktros with ‘fixed for NTSC’ messages-those groups really helped smooth out the differences for a lot of us back then. Thanks for sharing your experience!
@@FloppyDeepDive Also, I just remembered this, but my copy of Green Beret wasn't a crack, it was an official NTSC release titled Rush'N Attack. So that was definitely a case where the US publisher decided not to try to fix the game.
Could you do a video on how you did the changes and what you used to allow your NTSC C64 to correctly play PAL roms? Thank you!!! (I have an Ultimate-II + to use as I believe you did?) THANK YOU!!!
You have to replace your VIC II with the VICII Kawari chip. Then you load up the software you download online. That's it. Let me know if you have any other questions.
I always thought I was just really bad at these games. Then I found out they were PAL and running faster on my machine... So I got true NTSC versions and finally knew.... I was still really bad at these games .. Oh well... :-)
It’s funny how that realization hits! PAL games running on NTSC really do speed things up and can make them feel way harder. Glad you got the true NTSC versions-though I totally get that “oh well” feeling when the challenge is still there!
Great video, but I am a bit confused. So these examples were all PAL and being played on NTSC hardware? Is there a list somewhere of what games are designed/created PAL & which were NTSC? I would be interested in knowing so I can figure out which is which in my collection. So, as said, I am a bit confused……
Thanks for the comment! Yes, these examples were PAL games being played on NTSC hardware, which can sometimes cause issues like glitches or washed-out colors. Unfortunately, there isn’t a single comprehensive list that shows which games were designed for PAL versus NTSC, but many online databases and retro gaming forums can help identify specific titles. It’s definitely a good idea to figure out which versions you have in your collection, as it can impact how they play on different hardware. Plus, I can usually tell by eye when I load up a PAL game because the flashing is a dead giveaway. Thanks for watching, and I hope this clears things up!
the ntsc colour was saturated as well , and another game that falls in this video catagory was skate or die . The music in the ntsc version is how rob intended it to be
Great point! The NTSC color saturation definitely makes some games pop more. And Skate or Die is a perfect example-Rob Hubbard’s soundtrack is legendary, and it’s awesome to know the NTSC version reflects his original vision. The difference between regions is always so fascinating to explore!
Coming from North America, I always thought the c64 was awful at arcade conversions or platformers. However, simply releasing the PAL version in NA may help explain that. Paperboy was awful and while green beret looked cool, it was so hard. I'm wondering if this, along with the additional CPU cycles of the PAL machine are a couple of the reasons NA tended to have more strategy based games vs PAL being more action and demo based.
You're absolutely right-releasing the PAL versions in North America could definitely explain why some C64 games, especially arcade conversions, felt off or overly difficult. Paperboy and Green Beret were perfect examples of that. The extra CPU cycles on the PAL machine likely played a role too. I think you're onto something with your observation about NTSC games being more strategy-based, while PAL leaned toward action and demos. It's fascinating how these regional differences shaped gaming experiences! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I had Commando and Green Beret in Canaada. My version of Commando must have been fixed for NTSC as it played like your PAL version. My Green Beret must have been PAL as it was unplayable as you mentioned the PAL version was on NTSC.
Sounds like you definitely experienced both sides of the PAL vs NTSC situation! It’s interesting how your Commando played fine, which suggests it was likely patched for NTSC, but Green Beret being unplayable makes sense if it was a straight PAL port. That mismatch between formats could make some games a real pain to play back in the day. Thanks for sharing your story!
Wouldn't PAL C64 have more Cpu cycles per frame? In some games that will cause slow down. I've actually found many Euro developed Mega Drive games, which play better on PAL. Alien 3 is one of them.
Yes, PAL games get more cycles per frame, that's why they glitch on NTSC hardware, crashing in some cases as there's not enough time to render a full frame. Also, CPU clock speeds are different, NTSC being 3.5% faster, so games that aren't too demanding (mostly early ones) work better. Also, while the screen area is the same (200 vertical lines), the total display height is bigger on PAL (288 vs 240 lines), that's why borders are bigger on PAL and the screen is shorter as seen on this video.
At least NTSC games seemed to have better brighter colours - instead of the muddy mess we had on our PAL breadboxes - also it seems your screen was a bit more stretched vertically
Decades after emulators, you still see sloppy code from Europe, which fails or sounds bad or looks glitchy running on NTSC systems. The hubris and PALcentrism is annoying. The excuse for sloppy programming is "there's no C64 usage any more in NTSC land" (incorrect) ergo it doesn't matter. If your program won't sound or look right on the reference platform (the US was created in the US) then you're not as good as you think. It is a paradox that the best demo/game coders are from UK/Europe yet they can't manage a SID that sounds right on NTSC C64s. How about using the CIA for SID timing so it doesn't matter what the refresh rate is and it always sounds right? We saw the same BS on the Amiga too.
It’s true that many games and demos from Europe tend to favor PAL systems, leading to issues on NTSC setups. The SID timing and other hardware differences between PAL and NTSC have certainly caused problems over the years. You’d think with all the tools available now, including emulators, we’d see smoother cross-region compatibility, but unfortunately, that’s not always the case. The hubris around PAL can be frustrating, especially for those of us in NTSC regions who just want a great experience on our systems. It would be nice if more developers made sure their programs ran smoothly on both platforms!
¡Totalmente de acuerdo! El sonido de Ghosts ’n Goblins en el C64 tiene algo especial que lo hace destacar, incluso más que el arcade original. ¡Gracias por compartir!
It's a bit unfair to split hairs about frame rates when 50Hz is not bad. I think the human eye goes up to something like 120Hz. So the smoothness of games is more likely to be helped by having a bit more room in the blanking intervals for bus to go through the system. The pixels are square and there are more of them over an rgb signal (citation needed)? But better colour reproduction. I don't mean to be rude but ntsc is just not as good.
I see where you’re coming from! 50Hz definitely isn’t bad, and you’re right that smoothness can depend on other factors like blanking intervals. The differences between NTSC and PAL can get technical, but I think that’s part of what makes this discussion interesting. Both systems have their pros and cons depending on what you’re looking at-whether it’s frame rate or color accuracy. Thanks for adding to the conversation!
The colour palette on the NTSC is visually far better than PAL which looks washed out, I guess the Commodore engineers never adjusted the palette for PAL machines.
“Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It’s interesting to hear different perspectives on the NTSC vs PAL color palettes. I’ve noticed that too with some games - NTSC definitely can have a punchier look, while PAL versions sometimes appear more muted. I wonder if the engineers had to make compromises based on the different broadcast standards. It’s definitely something worth exploring further in the future!”
Depends on what C64 PAL model you're using. The C64C-II (PETSCII chars under the letters on the keyboard) there are no problems with the video and colours. The older breadbin versions had jailbars and the wierd colours. -Also, when using original PAL hardware, Giana sisters char doesn't miss animations as shown in this video.
@@KurtPedersen-tg7jc This is a great technical insight! You're absolutely right that it can depend on which C64 PAL model you're using. The C64C-II models did have improvements in video output, and the color issues seen with earlier breadbin versions, like the "jailbars," were much less pronounced. Also, I appreciate the note about The Great Giana Sisters-it's good to know that the animation issues shown in the video might not appear when using the original PAL hardware. Thanks for sharing this valuable info! It’s always great to hear from those who have deep knowledge of the different hardware revisions.
Cool video. In the early 90s I used to work as graphic artist for C64 games. Our team (based in Germany) knew that the games in the NTSC space had a different timing, or rather fewer raster lines due to the higher frame rate and therefore less computing time. But there were no US systems within reach, so nobody really thought about it. Various C64 games (e.g. Hawkeye or Turrican) that used the PAL raster time close to the limit therefore don't work at all on NTSC computers.
Conversely, it was less noticeable in US productions on PAL-C64. If there was flickering, we are talking about just few pixels on the screen. In Maniac Mansion, the moon on PAL computers is more like a melon shape. You are not aware that the music plays slower when there is no practical comparison.
Today I am part of a homebrew development team and it really is a very different time. Thanks to emulators you can actually always test for all systems. Back then the community was regionally limited, today I talk to people all over the world. One example was the implementation of Eye of the Beholder, where we were unable to reliably test the game on original C128-NTSC hardware and had contacted a UA-camr (retrobits) to see if he could help us. Something like that was hardly possible in the 80s/90s.
That's incredible insight! It’s fascinating to hear about the technical limitations you faced in the early '90s while developing C64 games, especially regarding the differences between PAL and NTSC. Those timing issues with raster lines and how games like *Hawkeye* or *Turrican* didn't function properly on NTSC systems really highlight the complexities of cross-region development back then.
And it's so true about the difference today-emulators and global communication have completely changed how testing and development work. It’s amazing to see how the homebrew community has evolved. Thanks for sharing your experience, and it's great to know you're still actively contributing to the scene!
My experience is the PAL SID sounded ridiculously bad- not just due to speed of playback but because the waveform seemed altered (not just pitch). I think this was because (maybe) on some songs/SFX the waveforms (the DSR part of the envelope) would play out fully if the SID update was at 50Hz. But at 60Hz the SID registers would be updated sooner thereby cutting off the programmed DSR and making the waveform sound odd. IMHO, tying audio updates to video refresh, is, IMHO (in most cases) really dumb. Use the CIA timers as an agnostic timing source instead.
@@saganandroid4175 I can't confirm that, but it depends a lot on the chiptune and the SID chip used. But I think the biggest difference in sound comes from whether you play music on an NTSC-C64 that was written for a PAL-C64 or vice versa. Today, this is usually tested against each other (e.g. with the homebrew version of Sonic the Hedgehog, which I was also involved in). In the 80s, nobody really questioned such things.
btw I have owned 8 different PAL-SIDs over the years and only one of them had problems with the sound. btw I have a few recordings of my own hardware on my YT channel as an example (e.g. from the demo C=Bit 18, PAL 8580 or alternatively from the tune Armalyte Revisited, PAL 6581R3).
@@vetodrom were questioning such things by 1984, here in NTSC world.
@@saganandroid4175 yes, I believe that. In Europe it was a little different, or rather the C64 had its peak in popularity between 1986 and 90 and was influenced quite strongly by local productions.
But the differences in sound in US games were never questioned here, which also has to do with the fact that from a time perspective the music routines were considered rather "oldschool" (as far as one can tell, there were normally no NTSC computers within reach that could be used to objectively compare the sound. Unfortunately there was also hardly any contact with the C64 community in the USA).
I don't have a C64 anymore, but use VICE and recently got this inexpensive LG monitor which can sync to both 50 and 60 hz. One of my favorite games growing up was Delta (sold as Delta Patrol in the U.S.) It also had graphics (for power ups) which were cut off in NTSC, but only about halfway so you could still tell them apart fortunately. ;)
That’s awesome that you’ve set up VICE with a monitor that can handle both 50 and 60 Hz-really brings out the best in both NTSC and PAL! Delta/Delta Patrol is such a classic, and it’s funny how the NTSC version cut off those graphics. Glad it didn’t take away from the experience! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks. Very interesting video that talks back to me. I lived in the US and in Europe during the 80's and I had a Commodore 64 on both continents. I could notice these differences but I could not explain why. I remember that one day, I bought Bard's Tale II at a local book shop in the US, and it worked fine on my Commodore 64 in the US. I brought the game with me while going to Europe, I tried it on several systems and it crashed each time. I thought that it was corrupt or damaged but it was not. Back in the US, it worked fine again.
What an incredible story! It’s fascinating how the differences between NTSC and PAL systems impacted gameplay like that. The compatibility issues could be so puzzling back then-working perfectly in one place and completely crashing in another! The C64 really showed us the quirks of cross-continent gaming.
I'm from Argentina, our case is probably the worst possible, as we are a PAL country (and not just regular, European PAL, but PAL-N, with a different color and sound sub carriers). Most of our imports back then were from the States.
In '85, Drean, a local company that made washing machines, got a deal with Commodore to release the C64 (and C16), and these were PAL, when there was already a large installed base of NTSC machines.
This didn't stop small shops selling NTSC machines, competing both on price and on quality, as Drean's C64s were quite dodgy depending on the batch and as more parts started to be produced locally, by then most TVs were multi-norm.
We had almost no legal software releases, most of what could be bought in stores were pirate copies, getting one that worked properly was a game of chance for both types of machines. This led to the evolution of local hacking groups that "fixed" games, as Dreans had timing differences with Euro PALs.
I had a NTSC machine, my best friend had a Drean, so some games played better at his, some played better at mine.
So, I totally agree with you on this video, some games were impossible to play unless fixed even if there were no glitches, Dragon's Lair is the first one that comes to my mind, on an NTSC machine the first stage is hard as hell.
This is still an issue today with TheC64 mini, as the US and Euro versions are frame rate locked, unlike the "maxi" that lets you choose 50 or 60Hz.
Shameless plug: I made a fake update for the US minis, that can be easily found if you do a search for "c64 mini ntsc to pal", it's both at thec64community forum and pinned at my fb page retrografxdotcom
I wondered about the PAL-N format. It gets confusing for sure. Is that 60Hz?
@@iwanttocomplain nope, afaik PAL-N is 50Hz, sound carrier and channel width is the same as NTSC, so an NTSC source gives us audio but no color. The one that's 60Hz is Brazil's PAL-M
That’s a fascinating story! The PAL-N situation in Argentina really does sound like a unique challenge, especially with the mix of NTSC machines being sold alongside local PAL systems like Drean’s C64. It’s amazing how the local hacking groups stepped in to fix games and make them playable across different systems. I can imagine how frustrating it must’ve been trying to find software that worked properly given all the different formats. Dragon's Lair being near impossible on NTSC makes sense with the timing issues. I didn’t know about the fake update for TheC64 mini-that’s a cool solution for modern users! Thanks for sharing your experience and your work on this!
I'm from Spain, a commodorian for 40years... and this video was REALLY NECESSARY here in Europe :D
Thanks so much! I’m glad you found the video valuable, especially from a fellow Commodore enthusiast in Europe. It’s great to hear that the content resonates after 40 years of being a true commodorian! Appreciate your support!
I will have to check this out on emulators and see the difference for myself. Thanks for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it! Emulators are a great way to really see the differences between PAL and NTSC. Hope you find the comparison interesting-thanks for watching!
I had no idea that it used to affect C-64 as well, I have experience of PAL/NTSC differences for Sega Mega Drive, Saturn, Dreamcast and PS1. You would need not only dedicated version of the console/modded/upgraded with special cartridge but also CRT TV with dedicated refresh rate. For example i cannot imagine completing Sonic the hedgehog 1 and 2 in NTSC versions as i could barely keep up with PAL.
It’s interesting how widespread the impact of PAL/NTSC differences were across so many consoles, not just the C64! Your experience with Sega Mega Drive, Saturn, Dreamcast, and PS1 highlights the challenges that retro gamers faced, especially when needing specific hardware, modded systems, and even dedicated CRT TVs just to experience games the way they were meant to be played. It sounds like you’ve had some challenging moments with NTSC versions, especially with games like Sonic the Hedgehog. It’s impressive how much these regional differences could affect gameplay and completion, especially for action-packed games that require quick reflexes.
There's some games where it's the opposite. NTSC games where I grew up playing in PAL. One example is Donkey Kong (Atarisoft version). Mario is so slow. Whereas when you play it on an NTSC C64 (in my case, on VICE) Mario walk at a faster (albeit still pretty slow) pace.
That’s a great example! *Donkey Kong* is definitely one of those games where you can really notice the speed difference between PAL and NTSC. It's interesting how Mario feels sluggish on PAL but moves faster on NTSC, even if still not super quick. It's always fascinating to see how these regional differences affect gameplay experiences. Thanks for pointing that out!
@@FloppyDeepDive Like you, I didn't understand the two (or is it 3 when you include SECAM?) different standards until modern times. I assumed that's just how the game was.
Actually to clarify, I understood we lived in a PAL region and that North America was NTSC, but I just thought that meant we needed to buy different TV sets. I didn't realise the computers connecting to those sets also had to be different and then in turn the programmers releasing software for the two different computers needed to modify their code. The 80s were so mysterious... If we didn't know something, a lot of the time we just spent time wondering about it given there was no Internet to give us instant answers. Or in this case, we just didn't know what we didn't know.
Somehow I managed to dodge this as a kid. It wasn't until I got back into Commodore stuff that I became aware of the PAL difference. Makes a huge difference running the software on its intended version.
Have you tried Mayhem in Monsterland in NTSC mode? IIRC, there are game breaking glitches in it. It's PAL only.
I didn't even know I didn't dodge it. I just loved collecting games. People said there was NTSC fixes. I was lucky to get access to whatever I got my hands on. Local BBS’s was my only option.
I haven't tried Mayhem in Mosterland. I'll give it a go. Thanks for always commenting my friend!
@@FloppyDeepDive I always try to comment with something - gotta help feed the youtube algorithm
I think quite a few games didn't get a US release so you needed to find a copy of a cracked version.
Same but the other way around, being that I'm from the UK and the tv standard was PAL.
I never noticed any game being too fast or slow, they seemed about right for how the game was intended to be, but it was a long time ago, so maybe a game or two did slip through, but I'm certain that almost all the games I played as a kid on the C64, seemed to play as intended, without any of the flickering issue or music sounding out of place.
But I have to say, I'm a bit surprised that most games didn't change the internal timing of the game speed when it detects it's running on PAL or NTSC, I can't imagine it being that difficult for them to do.
On another note, I have noticed as I got older, games on PAL systems seem to get less slow-downs then NTSC games, probably because it's running at 50hz, but that was supposed to be corrected with the NTSC C64 hardware running at a slightly higher clock rate, but I've also noticed with some of the newer games being released on the C64 that run fine on the PAL 64 but get slow-downs on the NTSC one.
PAL does run at a higher resolution back then over NTSC but I highly doubt games on the C64 could take advantage of that, and I do notice that with tv contents from the 80's and 90's, PAL contents tends to look cleaner whereas NTSC looks a bit blurry, but today, that's not an issue, most tv's support most of the standards around the world and things just work, and maybe this is subjective, I've played games on PAL and NTSC displays, to me, they more or less looked just as smooth as each other.
In any case, when playing games from the past, you really want to play them as it was intended to be played, weather PAL or NTSC, and most displays today support both.
@@paul1979uk2000 I feel quite lucky we had PAL in UK because it has better colour and detail and interval blank data bandwidth, giving you more options when making games and an easier decoding and coding process for engineers.
Because ntsc is 29.9, with the last .1% containing the colour information. So the maths can get a bit confusing sometimes whearas PAL50 is closer to a whole number of 50hz.
That is, the subcarrier of 60 is divided by two on both for an interlaced 25 or 30 for broadcast.
The ntsc broadcast is for some reason not a 1:1 aspect.
I get a bit confused if micro-computers output an interlaced or progressive signal. but I suppose it's interlaced if output to a consumer tv.
My friend and I ALWAYS played Turbo Lotus Esprit on the Amiga in NTSC even though we live in Australia, Once you played in NTSC Pal just felt slow.
Totally get that! Once you experience the faster NTSC speed, it’s hard to go back. Turbo Lotus Esprit must have felt like a completely different game! I bet it added a whole new level of excitement to the gameplay.
That was lovely seeing the differences... and amazing that C64 games in America were officially released in PAL mode. What a nerve!
It really is wild, right? It's surprising to think that they released C64 games in the US in PAL mode without much thought to how they’d run on NTSC hardware. Definitely makes for an interesting topic when looking back at those days!
It's amazing how much of a difference even just the music makes.
It has an effect on how the games feel as well as the emotion/mood they're trying to depict.
I believe that alone can have an effect on how the game is played.
It's great to see these PAL region games getting some love from overseas.
Awesome video 👌
I couldn’t agree more! The music really does set the tone and can completely change how a game feels. It’s amazing how it impacts the mood and even the way we play. I’m glad to show some love for these PAL games-they definitely deserve it! Thanks for watching, and I appreciate the kind words!
Interesting that your G&G floppy contains a PAL version. Capcom did in fact release a proper NTSC version here in the US that plays perfectly on an NTSC machine. You can grab the image from the C64PP on the Internet Archive. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for the heads-up! I wasn’t aware that there was a proper NTSC version of *Ghosts 'n Goblins* out there-I'll definitely check that out on the C64PP. It’s great to know there’s a version that plays perfectly on NTSC hardware. Appreciate the tip, and thanks for watching!
I'm not finding the Image. I see it on C64PP but I don't see a way to download the file. What am I missing?
@@FloppyDeepDive Click "Show All" then on the g64 zip click "View Contents" and you should find what you're looking for
@@FloppyDeepDive Under download options, there is a show all button, it will show all available files to download. You will want one of the zip files or if you just want one file, you can click on "show contents" and select the file you want. If you choose the nbz version, you will need nib tools to uncompress the files.
Awesome video and quite an eye opener! It's so interesting that some games were essentially released in North America as PAL. Agreed, that some of those games are actually much more playable when you play them in PAL; however, its always been a rush playing games like Commando at a higher speed with the faster tempo music right! Always enjoy your content Tom!
Thank you! It really is fascinating how some games ended up being released as PAL in North America, and I completely agree-certain games just feel better at the PAL speed. But yeah, playing *Commando* at a higher speed with that fast-paced music definitely gives a different kind of adrenaline rush! Glad you’re enjoying the content, and I appreciate the support!
Very nice video, thanks ❤
Thanks for Watching!
Funny. In the very early days (1983/1984) the PAL users (me) had more problems playing games that were not released officialy for PAL. Later it changed because a lot of stuff was primary released in Europe.
That’s really interesting! It’s funny how things shifted over time. In the early '80s, PAL users like yourself were struggling with games not optimized for PAL, and then Europe became the primary release region for so much of the later content. It just goes to show how dynamic the gaming landscape was back then, with different regions experiencing the same systems in very different ways. Thanks for sharing that insight!
The S.I.D. chip is a beast. C64 is fantastic
I agree 100%!
I would have liked to have seen the differences between the PAL-on-NTSC version and the dedicated NTSC version. You mention Commando - did they fix the flicker? Slow down the music? Make it easier? Or any other differences not just related to the hardware.
Anyway, just a suggestion that might make a good video. 🙂 I'm aware of the different games between the regions - like Bionic Commando, After Burner, Ikari Warriors - but not differences in ports.
That's an excellent idea, and I will put it on my list. Thanks for watching the video!
Nice vid.Thanks. I find the odd cropping, different screen sizes and colour differences to be needlessly distracting considering your focus was on the differences between PAL/NTSC though. But again let me say it is a very good vid and I learned something I never considered before. Subbed.
Thanks! I appreciate you watching and subbing and glad you learned something new.
The sound of these games brings back memories loved these games and the sound so much :)
Glad it brought back great memories. Thanks for Watching!
I'm surprised that they didn't add a couple of no-op pauses to the NTSC versions to get the speed right, although I guess that wouldn't work with the music. It's much worse the other way around, where the PAL release is painfully slow with black bars.
I'm sure there were also a few US arcade conversions made on the C64 - it would be interesting to compare them with the UK versions.
You bring up a great point! Adding no-op pauses could’ve helped with the speed, but as you said, syncing with the music would’ve been tricky. It’s definitely worse when the PAL version runs slow with those black bars. I think comparing US arcade conversions with the UK versions would be a really interesting topic-it would highlight how each region handled these limitations and differences. Thanks for the suggestion!
I never tried the Commodore 64 we had a Tandy 1000ex but I have the c64 mini and maxi but haven’t messed with them much yet
That’s awesome! I actually have a Tandy 1000sx in my collection too. The C64 Mini and Maxi are fun to mess around with, but of course, there’s nothing like a real C64. Let me know how it goes when you dive in!
3:09 well you talked over a lot of it, but it's not just speed and pitch that differ (pitch is relative so not a big deal) but instruments and sound FX etc often get screwed up and clipped because the PAL-centric creators assume the DSR is still doing it's thing, but, if the SID update is (foolishly usually) tied to video refresh, and the system is 60 rather than 50HZ, there is a shorter interval between SID register updates. So the DSR envelope never fully plays out before another SID write comes. There's rarely a legit excuse for not using the CIA as the interrupt source for SID music/FX instead of the video scan rate.
That’s a great technical breakdown of the SID sound issues on NTSC! You’re absolutely right-it’s not just about pitch but how the envelope plays out when sound effects and instruments get cut short because of the difference in refresh rates. Tying the SID update to the video refresh often leads to those awkward issues when moving between 50Hz and 60Hz systems. Using the CIA for the interrupt would avoid this entirely, yet it seems to be overlooked. It’s frustrating when developers don’t account for these differences, especially when it’s an easy fix!
@@FloppyDeepDive the Europeans think they are greatest coders but... I am not totally convinced they have thought things out.
Great episode! Keep it up!
Thanks! Will do! Thanks for Watching!
I thought you did a great job in showing and describing the differences between PAL games experienced across the pond. It does not seem like much or any care was given when British games were published in the US. I know that many US games were published in PAL regions. Are there less issues when importing that way around? Another thing I have heard is that PAL homebrew is a little easier to program even today as there are more CPU cycles per frame making it easier to make a smoother game. As a result, many European coded homebrew games are recommended or exclusively PAL only. I think this topic is quite interesting.
Thanks for the kind words! It’s true that when British games were published in the US, sometimes it felt like not much care went into making sure they worked well for NTSC systems. Interestingly, importing US games to PAL regions often resulted in fewer issues since PAL systems had more CPU cycles per frame to work with. You’re absolutely right about PAL homebrew being a bit easier to program for this reason-those extra CPU cycles make it easier to optimize and create smoother gameplay, which is why so many European-coded homebrew games are PAL-exclusive. It’s definitely a fascinating topic, and I’m glad you found it interesting too!
Interesting video. Of course the US version of Alien Syndrome is fixed so the scrolling does keep up with your player movement and you don't keep hitting the end of the screen like on the original PAL release making it unplayable. Also, even though it's only cosmetic, Space Harrier US release has raster bars on the floor and the raster colours for OutRun are better choices than the PAL original releases of both those games. So it's not all bad for NTSC owners. I'd love to play Alien Syndrome properly but no PAL fix as far as I know for the NTSC release (but it might be incompatible with my SD2IEC I don't know).
Thanks for sharing that! It's interesting to hear how the US version of *Alien Syndrome* fixed the scrolling issue, making it more playable compared to the PAL version. Also, good call on the raster bar differences in *Space Harrier* and the better color choices in *OutRun* for NTSC-it's great to see that it’s not all bad for NTSC owners! I hope you can find a solution to play *Alien Syndrome* properly without issues on your SD2IEC. It's always a challenge to get everything working perfectly, but it’s part of the fun of retro computing!
@@FloppyDeepDive Most developers were up against incredibly short timescales, I think it only took Chris Butler minutes to add the raster bars on the floor for Space Harrier which makes all the difference. Just gives the developer to make small changes between PAL and NTSC release dates whilst making sure the code ran properly on the 60hz C64 I guess. Keep up the good work anyway :)
8:18 Is that a Sinclair C5 in the garden in the PAL version?
Good eye! At first glance, it does look a bit like a Sinclair C5, but I think it’s actually supposed to be a go-kart in the game. Fun detail though-thanks for pointing it out!
The Amiga with a RGB monitor could easily switch back and forth. Of course, with emulators and the C64, it eliminates the issue. We had like 5000 games for the C64 over 7-8 years all from a local C64 user group that met once a month. Then I got an Amiga 500 and then finally a A3000, which looked so good with no flicker on a cheap PC monitor.
That’s awesome! Emulators definitely make things more convenient, but I’m a big fan of using the original hardware and floppy disks whenever I can-it just brings back that authentic retro feel. Nothing beats the experience of using the actual machine. But I get it, emulation has its place, especially when it comes to preserving those thousands of games. Thanks for sharing your story!
Americans also missed out on the Master System along with 8 bit computers. All the best Master System games came from the PAL region 1990-1996 when the US had already cancelled new releases after 1990. Hence why it's so underestimated in the US compared to the NES. The NES is not revered anywhere near as much in western europe as US culture.
That’s a great point about the Master System! It’s fascinating how PAL regions got such amazing support for the system well into the ‘90s, while the US missed out. I agree that the NES is more iconic in the US, but in Europe, the Master System had a much stronger foothold. Thanks for bringing up this interesting comparison!
This is why I LOVE the misterfpga project. Combined with different SID types and drive speed updates like DolphinDOS, it’s really a playground of hardware.
I remember hearing about dolphindos, but it required some intrusive hardware mods and Epyx FastLoad was “good enough”. Really fun to explore the variations without repairing my original C64s - and I get to play some awesome games on the zx-spectrum and BBC micro that I never knew about
That’s awesome! The MiSTer FPGA project really does open up a ton of possibilities for reliving those old hardware experiences without having to modify the originals. DolphinDOS is a beast, but yeah, it needed some serious modding. Epyx FastLoad was definitely the more accessible option back then. It’s so cool that MiSTer allows you to explore all those systems, including the ZX Spectrum and BBC Micro-there’s so much retro gold on those platforms!
Thanks, that was a good comparison. Will there be a part two? 😊
What about games like Out Run or Enforcer? Enforcer also flickered in the PAL version when many enemies where on screen
Maybe, was waiting on seeing how it does first. It might turn into a reoccurring series.
I am pretty sure most demos are in PAL format aswell. I am lucky enough to have PAL and NTSC mainboards. I also have a Mister FPGA and a couple of JVC 50/60 hz CRT monitors so I get the best of both worlds. Its a rabbit hole to dive down. I live in the UK and have always found NTSC kids to have quicker reaction times due to the faster games. It litterally made you guys better at games. I wonder what it would have been like if the world had settled on 55 hz as a standard.
That’s awesome you’ve got both PAL and NTSC setups along with a Mister FPGA! It really does let you experience the best of both worlds. I’ve heard the same thing about reaction times-those faster NTSC games really pushed you. It’s interesting to think about what could’ve happened if there was a global standard like 55Hz. Definitely a rabbit hole, but it’s fun to dive into these what-ifs!
@@FloppyDeepDive You get Commodore 64 in RGB on a mister aswell. Its awesome.
Very nice comparison video, matey! Never ran into that problem yet, because i live inmidst Europe, where PAL rulez!🙂
Glad you enjoyed the comparison! PAL definitely has its advantages, and Europe certainly got some of the best versions of these games. It’s always fun to see the differences between the two formats. Thanks for watching, matey!
Muy buen trabajo!!.
¡Muchas gracias! Me alegra que te haya gustado el video. ¡Espero que disfrutes el próximo contenido también!
I recently got a Kawari and I now don't have to swap out to my PAL C64 to play scene demos and modern PAL games. NTSC50 is what really helps, since I can use PAL on my NTSC CRT monitors.
Yes! I love it on my 1702! Being able to switch from black and white to color with PAL is awesome!
While Green Beret was definitely a nightmare to play on NTSC, I actually prefer the music and gameplay of Paperboy and Giana Sister sped up. I remember the first time I saw PAL gameplay footage of Giana, I was like wtf so slow. It's funny I remember the speed but not the flickering. Though a lot of my games were preceded by cracktros, by folks like Fairlight, that often stated "fixed for NTSC" so that could account for differences in experience.
Green Beret was definitely rough on NTSC! I totally get what you’re saying about Paperboy and Giana Sisters being more enjoyable sped up-sometimes the faster pace on NTSC really adds to the experience. And yeah, seeing PAL gameplay for the first time after being used to NTSC can feel like everything is in slow motion. I also remember seeing those Fairlight cracktros with ‘fixed for NTSC’ messages-those groups really helped smooth out the differences for a lot of us back then. Thanks for sharing your experience!
@@FloppyDeepDive Also, I just remembered this, but my copy of Green Beret wasn't a crack, it was an official NTSC release titled Rush'N Attack. So that was definitely a case where the US publisher decided not to try to fix the game.
Could you do a video on how you did the changes and what you used to allow your NTSC C64 to correctly play PAL roms? Thank you!!! (I have an Ultimate-II + to use as I believe you did?) THANK YOU!!!
You have to replace your VIC II with the VICII Kawari chip. Then you load up the software you download online. That's it. Let me know if you have any other questions.
I always thought I was just really bad at these games.
Then I found out they were PAL and running faster on my machine...
So I got true NTSC versions and finally knew....
I was still really bad at these games ..
Oh well... :-)
It’s funny how that realization hits! PAL games running on NTSC really do speed things up and can make them feel way harder. Glad you got the true NTSC versions-though I totally get that “oh well” feeling when the challenge is still there!
Great video, but I am a bit confused. So these examples were all PAL and being played on NTSC hardware? Is there a list somewhere of what games are designed/created PAL & which were NTSC? I would be interested in knowing so I can figure out which is which in my collection. So, as said, I am a bit confused……
Thanks for the comment! Yes, these examples were PAL games being played on NTSC hardware, which can sometimes cause issues like glitches or washed-out colors. Unfortunately, there isn’t a single comprehensive list that shows which games were designed for PAL versus NTSC, but many online databases and retro gaming forums can help identify specific titles. It’s definitely a good idea to figure out which versions you have in your collection, as it can impact how they play on different hardware. Plus, I can usually tell by eye when I load up a PAL game because the flashing is a dead giveaway. Thanks for watching, and I hope this clears things up!
@FloppyDeepDive thanks very much!
the ntsc colour was saturated as well , and another game that falls in this video catagory was skate or die . The music in the ntsc version is how rob intended it to be
Great point! The NTSC color saturation definitely makes some games pop more. And Skate or Die is a perfect example-Rob Hubbard’s soundtrack is legendary, and it’s awesome to know the NTSC version reflects his original vision. The difference between regions is always so fascinating to explore!
How would he have known what it was going to sound like on an NTSC machine?
@@nimbler He was working for EA in the United States at the time.
@@zeprfrew Fair
Coming from North America, I always thought the c64 was awful at arcade conversions or platformers. However, simply releasing the PAL version in NA may help explain that. Paperboy was awful and while green beret looked cool, it was so hard. I'm wondering if this, along with the additional CPU cycles of the PAL machine are a couple of the reasons NA tended to have more strategy based games vs PAL being more action and demo based.
You're absolutely right-releasing the PAL versions in North America could definitely explain why some C64 games, especially arcade conversions, felt off or overly difficult. Paperboy and Green Beret were perfect examples of that. The extra CPU cycles on the PAL machine likely played a role too. I think you're onto something with your observation about NTSC games being more strategy-based, while PAL leaned toward action and demos. It's fascinating how these regional differences shaped gaming experiences! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I had Commando and Green Beret in Canaada. My version of Commando must have been fixed for NTSC as it played like your PAL version. My Green Beret must have been PAL as it was unplayable as you mentioned the PAL version was on NTSC.
Sounds like you definitely experienced both sides of the PAL vs NTSC situation! It’s interesting how your Commando played fine, which suggests it was likely patched for NTSC, but Green Beret being unplayable makes sense if it was a straight PAL port. That mismatch between formats could make some games a real pain to play back in the day. Thanks for sharing your story!
Wouldn't PAL C64 have more Cpu cycles per frame? In some games that will cause slow down.
I've actually found many Euro developed Mega Drive games, which play better on PAL. Alien 3 is one of them.
Yes, PAL games get more cycles per frame, that's why they glitch on NTSC hardware, crashing in some cases as there's not enough time to render a full frame. Also, CPU clock speeds are different, NTSC being 3.5% faster, so games that aren't too demanding (mostly early ones) work better. Also, while the screen area is the same (200 vertical lines), the total display height is bigger on PAL (288 vs 240 lines), that's why borders are bigger on PAL and the screen is shorter as seen on this video.
Excellent answer! Thank you.
At least NTSC games seemed to have better brighter colours - instead of the muddy mess we had on our PAL breadboxes - also it seems your screen was a bit more stretched vertically
Yep the NTSC colors were very vibrant!
Almost made it through a whole video without lowering the "BOOM!" 😏
Almost! Lol
Decades after emulators, you still see sloppy code from Europe, which fails or sounds bad or looks glitchy running on NTSC systems. The hubris and PALcentrism is annoying. The excuse for sloppy programming is "there's no C64 usage any more in NTSC land" (incorrect) ergo it doesn't matter. If your program won't sound or look right on the reference platform (the US was created in the US) then you're not as good as you think. It is a paradox that the best demo/game coders are from UK/Europe yet they can't manage a SID that sounds right on NTSC C64s. How about using the CIA for SID timing so it doesn't matter what the refresh rate is and it always sounds right? We saw the same BS on the Amiga too.
It’s true that many games and demos from Europe tend to favor PAL systems, leading to issues on NTSC setups. The SID timing and other hardware differences between PAL and NTSC have certainly caused problems over the years. You’d think with all the tools available now, including emulators, we’d see smoother cross-region compatibility, but unfortunately, that’s not always the case. The hubris around PAL can be frustrating, especially for those of us in NTSC regions who just want a great experience on our systems. It would be nice if more developers made sure their programs ran smoothly on both platforms!
Yie Ar Kung Fu playing PAL version on NTSC. Try it. It's so damn fast and that's what we all played and thought was normal.
Oh yes, I forgot about that one. It's so true, so fast, and incredibly hard! Thanks for Watching!
Creo que ghost goblins es el unico juego que me gusta mas el sonido que el original arcade.
¡Totalmente de acuerdo! El sonido de Ghosts ’n Goblins en el C64 tiene algo especial que lo hace destacar, incluso más que el arcade original. ¡Gracias por compartir!
Colors are finally correct on NTSC C64, the PAS palette is washed off
I love the NTSC colors. Thanks for Watching!
It's a bit unfair to split hairs about frame rates when 50Hz is not bad. I think the human eye goes up to something like 120Hz. So the smoothness of games is more likely to be helped by having a bit more room in the blanking intervals for bus to go through the system.
The pixels are square and there are more of them over an rgb signal (citation needed)? But better colour reproduction. I don't mean to be rude but ntsc is just not as good.
I see where you’re coming from! 50Hz definitely isn’t bad, and you’re right that smoothness can depend on other factors like blanking intervals. The differences between NTSC and PAL can get technical, but I think that’s part of what makes this discussion interesting. Both systems have their pros and cons depending on what you’re looking at-whether it’s frame rate or color accuracy. Thanks for adding to the conversation!
In some cases I like the sped up music better.
I agree; it’s what I am used to hearing.
The colour palette on the NTSC is visually far better than PAL which looks washed out, I guess the Commodore engineers never adjusted the palette for PAL machines.
“Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It’s interesting to hear different perspectives on the NTSC vs PAL color palettes. I’ve noticed that too with some games - NTSC definitely can have a punchier look, while PAL versions sometimes appear more muted. I wonder if the engineers had to make compromises based on the different broadcast standards. It’s definitely something worth exploring further in the future!”
Depends on what C64 PAL model you're using. The C64C-II (PETSCII chars under the letters on the keyboard) there are no problems with the video and colours. The older breadbin versions had jailbars and the wierd colours. -Also, when using original PAL hardware, Giana sisters char doesn't miss animations as shown in this video.
@@KurtPedersen-tg7jc This is a great technical insight! You're absolutely right that it can depend on which C64 PAL model you're using. The C64C-II models did have improvements in video output, and the color issues seen with earlier breadbin versions, like the "jailbars," were much less pronounced. Also, I appreciate the note about The Great Giana Sisters-it's good to know that the animation issues shown in the video might not appear when using the original PAL hardware.
Thanks for sharing this valuable info! It’s always great to hear from those who have deep knowledge of the different hardware revisions.