Dune Part 2 is a Cinematic Achievement - EXCEPT for THIS... | Spoilers!
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- Опубліковано 28 лют 2024
- #Dune #frankherbert #denisvilleneuve
Dune Part II is the movie of 2024 (so far), and a true cinematic achievement. Take a step back however, and one might see that despite everything good, some ideopolitically motivated and thus questionable creative choices found their way in there, detracting somewhat from the movie as a whole. With kudos to @YellowFlashProductions they were able to make audiences swallow a bitter messaging pill along with the greatness.
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Zendaya is overrated.
Hollywood needs to stop.
THIS! 💯
She's just an actress. She has little in the way of star power but she does what she's there to do on screen and I can't complain that she's lacking... But to see Hollywood blow her popularity out of proportion reminds me of other actors who Hollywood tried to make into stars... So I can say that Zendaya has at the very least... Not been overly boring on screen or attacked anyone in real life. So... keep it up Zendaya? I guess?
She's a godo actress, but it was jaring in Dune one when all the Fenmen are talking in North African/Asian accents and her happy valley Cali style accent is supposed to be authentic to them.
@@davfree9732Actors are willing moupieces for The Message. Zendaya is ugly AF casted only because she's half black.
She’s been with Disney for years, hasn’t she? They’re determined we’re going to like her!
Zendaya has two emotions, squint and super squint.
LMFAO HAHAHA BRO, TRUER WORDS HAVE NEVER BEEN SPOKEN
She is not a great actress, nor an alluring presence.
I think it's more like scowl. It did get annoying at some point.
I kept expecting her to call Paul "colonizers" in the first movie.
I'da said Hot and SuperHot, but from an acting standpoint... Yeah, they're the same thing@ Hahahahaha!
you nailed my main complaint. Zendaya and her friends act like present day, US based, high school girls. She doesn't have the grit that she should for that lifestyle, and none of the awareness that she should have. Hollywood keeps trying to make her "a thing", and she just isn't much of an actor.
100%
?!? What insanity! Zendaya is a Wonderful Actress who gives performances based on what directors ask of her. She Always Aces the Assignment. Zendaya is the Youngest Actress in History to deservedly Win highly prestigious EMMY AWARDS for Best Lead Actress in a Drama Series. Her peers in the industry know great acting when they see it. Zendaya also won a Golden Globe for Acting. Brilliantly Multi-talented Zendaya is even the Youngest nominated for a Best Producer EMMY.
Zendaya's mother, a teacher, was also the Manager of a Shakespeare Company of Players. Zendaya was watching Shakespeare from the time she was 2- years-old! She's seen all the plays several times. Great acting is part of her DNA. She is natural. It's like Picasso. His abstract work made some oblivious people think he could not draw or paint when the Fact is he had been drawing and painting amazingly realistic images from the time he was a young child! The brilliant simplicity of his later works masked a genius that created a New, more basically profound reality.
Similarly, the great, deservedly multiple EMMY WINNING/Golden Globe winning Actress, Zendaya, who was steeped in the great words and acting of Shakespeare Players from the time she was a Baby, has great acting etched in her very being. She is so natural that some UNsophisticated people haven't yet recognized her Picasso-like Primal Profundity and Brilliance.
She doesn’t have to be a great actor. Dune 2 isn’t an arthouse film. She has to put asses in seats, and research says she is successful.
calm down chatgpt @@user-yu9mg5hm6r
The reverse misogyny and elitism in making Chani too ignorant and self-centered to see the bigger picture of their roles in the Imperium is a mistake. Chani in the book is not a fool. She is a princess of Arrakis - daughter of a high Naib. She gets it.
the word you're looking for is misandry. I wouldn't call it that, just smugness and an utter lack of chemistry or understanding for chani and their relationship.
@@BurghezulDjentilom no. Misandry is a hatred of men - I don't think they are depicting Chani' as a man-hater. Reverse misogyny is where the misogyny implicit in the depiction of the character. In this case, there is an implicit misogyny in Chani' being portrayed as self-centered egoist who, like child, can't see beyond her feelings to the broader context. It's a patronizing change to her character that is intended to represent her strength as a woman but really only makes her look like a fool - iows: in intending to make Chani's depiction more anti-misogynistic, the script writers end up being reverse misogynistic.
@@WTHFX I guess now that you've explained it, I agree - it was a disgraceful portrayal, and no actress could have salvaged the role, but still wouldn't call it that, because she isn't meant to represent women as a whole.
Hell, DOON's Paul might well get along better with Irulan of all people lmao what a joke
This. The book "Dune" literally ends with Jessica explaining to Chani that she will be more of a wife to Paul than Irulan ever can be.
Misandry.
Zendaya playing Zendaya, just like every movie.
Good point, looks like she has a uni dimensional acting ability LOL She don't even have to practice her lines LOL
@@FlitalidapouetJust like The Rock or Jason Statham, with similar results depending on the movie.
Yea she’s super annoying
Oh, you got that right!
She's better here than anywhere else, though. Which is not that much, but hey! Gotta stay positive.
A traditional greeting from the Dune novels of the Fremen to show strangers that they come in peace was to grab a handful of sand and toss it into the air. 'Our only enemy is the desert.' was the meaning behind it.
They were not people who looked down on each other at all.
They had too many enemies from off world to have any time for it.
Well, there was the Iduali, the water-stealers, from Sietch Jacarutu, which was located in the southern hemisphere. Simplifying (i.e. "dumbing down") the dispute is probably necessary for casual audiences to grasp. Otherwise, you'll just lose them in the details.
If there are plans for a Dune p3, setting up the existance of Jacarutu is important, and the details can be fleshed out then.
@theeffete3396 I had forgotten about them completely. Been too long since I've read the books. The first two used to be I'd read them once a year but not any longer.
Anyway tons of other problems (gosh plz someone give me those two hours back)
1- costumes are horrible, why emperors, barons, princesses and queens have drab ugly clothes? WTF?
2- everting is dark, grey, black, can't remember seeing ANY color. No saying it's not there, but simply not enough. Richest empire in the universe, but no colors, no drapes, no bright decorations, no colorful banners, no gold, no jewels. I supposed they all made vows of poverty. 🤣🤣🤣
3- Princess Irulan looks like she bough her dress at a thrift store or rebate isle at Walmart. Go look at the costume of 1984 Dune and compare. If Denis's Irulan would ask me for sex, I would jump off a building instead. I got a gag reaction in the theatre. I was dreaming to marry Princess Irulan for years when I was a kid, talk about killing a dream.
4- stupid useless arguments between Paul and Chani LOOSING time that could have been used explaining the spice, the bene geserit, the Imperial family. Something like 25 to 30 minutes of cold, empty, convers. DANG.
5- the ending assault, well you won't see any of it, clouds of sands everywhere and where are the fights, INSIDE those clouds of sands, sry viewer, wanna see fights and armies clashing, oh well, won't see any. Maybe another time.
6- Paul's end fight is 1/10 of 1984 Dune version, how the F can you screw the last fight so bad when you have such good example to inspire yourself from. Do the same? YES, Do better? YES, Do 10 to 20 times worse? Meh......
7- How the F, everyone survives when they get a knife right trough their bodies. Where is the good old good knife's kills or at least, you can't walk and have to be patched up right away.
The first movies was very good, and promising for the second. But OH GOSH I regret 80% of the time I spent in the theatre and I am a) a HUGE Denis fan and b) a HUGE Dune fan. Gosh I wanted that movie to be good 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@Flitalidapouet art is subjective I guess, because I personally don't agree with any of your points. And regarding 7, Paul has bene gesserit abilities, which means he can manipulate and take control over his body and probably survived because of it. The only thing I didn't understand was how Chani supposedly "rescued" Paul after he drank the Water of life. Sorry to hear that it didn't align with your image of what it should've looked like.
@@otherly.According to the book, Paul loved channi so much, so she became the center for his world, so he used her as a root to pull himself back from the multi timeline
Every time Chani spoke i heard Lady Olenna in my head, 'you look like a angry little boy, let the grown ups speak!'
Every time I head Paul speak he sounded like Tobey McGuire. The fact tht he was hanging out with MJ made it impossible for me to un-hear.
The problem with the changes they made in part 2 is that it has cascading effects later in the story. Compressing the timeline that is about 5 years in the books to less than 9 months on screen means 1) Chani and Paul never had their first son (whose death was Paul's motivation to take the Water of Life and Chani's reason for wanting to engage in the jihad), 2) Alia is not born and thus cannot kill the Baron at the end (so his haunting of her in the Children of Dune storyline will not make much sense), and 3) Chani storming off at the end makes it difficult for her to reclaim the relationship she had with Paul in the book as well as sets the situation with Irulan in a difficult place.
While I liked the movie, it does have some serious problems when it comes to maintaining the cohesive storyline going forward because of the changes made.
sadly This might Need a recon to make it work a little with Chani. We can also has Paul's first two children be twins but only the boy died for (insert writing reason here). all in all, the changes takes the plot completely off the rails from the original book when it comes to future plot points. Movie's still great though and sets out to be entertaining without requiring you to have watched dune 1. didn't even notice 3 hours had pasted by the time the film ended.
@@BladeMasterIcarus If they kill off Leto II, that would mean they can never make Children of Dune nor God Emperor of Dune (as they would have killed off the main character). So, while you can make it work for Dune and Dune Messiah, you sacrifice any future projects in doing so. To give a parallel as to how bad that would be: Game of Thrones was a decent show as long as they had the books to lean on for material. As soon as they ran out of books and had to complete the story on their own, it went to crap.
When adapting a book to a movie, some changes are expected. Throwaway characters can often get combined. Heck, even supporting characters like Liet can be gender-swapped and still be okay. But, when you start making changes close to the main plot, you run the risk of screwing up the story entirely. Right now, the changes made to the story are dangerously close to that point (if not already there).
@@KaizenLegacy I'm hoping that Denis glosses over all of this and returns to the source material for Dune Messiah. For modern audiences, it should be pretty easy to pretend that Chani was just having a moment at the end of Dune pt. 2, and she's back to being loyal to Paul.
I did see those flaws. Paul declared he will marry the Princes Irulan(?) but will always be faithful to Chani. It was a purely dynastic marriage. Part 3 (the movie makes no sense without part 3 as Part 2 left us hanging) will be fabricated. I don’t recall the Jihad with the other houses in the original book or movies.
@@duke927 there was a Jihand in the original book, but it was more of a premonition of the future that scared the shit out of Reverend Mother and the reaction "Are you really going to unleash your Fremen on the Universe?" (to which Paul responded with "Yeah, cause Sardaukar are such a nice guys"). Most of the Noble Houses accepted him because the Guild forced them too, since Paul had complete control over Spice up to the point where could've stoped it's production at once, and therefore, as much control over Guild itself as anyone could.
Too bad that the new movie destroyed this beatiful checkmate by Paul and reduced him to a screaming bloodthirsty maniac with an army of zealots to hammer down the thought of "Jihad bad, literal Hitler bad". Yeah, Denis, we get that, you don't need to hold your audience for a morons to understand something that you've been telling us for two movies straight.
Zendaya plays the same character in every film lol
But buy but she changed the costume. Must be hard work. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Like Ryan Reynolds?
@@billybarnett9518 or Jason Statham. The difference is we like Reyonlds and Statham... Zendaya's characters are just annoying
@@themandownthehall I like Zendaya's characters, speak for yourself.
@@themandownthehall I couldnt agree more.
Chani being a Karen is so 2024. I'm pretty sure that Vileneuve had to satisfy certain BlackRock inc. mandates for this movie - the fact that BlackRock, the Harkonnen of our time, have an investment in the company that made Dune makes it extra meta!
HAHAHA!!
Wow, a commentator who actually did his homework's 👏👏👏👍👍👍 Blackrock = Harkonnen indeed.
Just saw the movie, gosh it was bad.
1- costumes are horrible, why emperors, barons, princesses and queens have drab ugly clothes? WTF?
2- everting is dark, grey, black, can't remember seeing ANY color. No saying it's not there, but simply not enough. Richest empire in the universe, but no colors, no drapes, no bright decorations, no colorful banners, no gold, no jewels. I supposed they all made vows of poverty. 🤣🤣🤣
3- Princess Irulan looks like she bough her dress at a thrift store or rebate isle at Walmart. Go look at the costume of 1984 Dune and compare. If Denis's Irulan would ask me for sex, I would jump off a building instead. I got a gag reaction in the theatre. I was dreaming to marry Princess Irulan for years when I was a kid, talk about killing a dream.
4- stupid useless arguments between Paul and Chani LOOSING time that could have been used explaining the spice, the bene geserit, the Imperial family. Something like 25 to 30 minutes of cold, empty, convers. DANG.
And my gruel bowls give me way more loves vibes then the tree bark that is Chani. Felt like she hates Paul all along.
5- the ending assault, well you won't see any of it, clouds of sands everywhere and where are the fights, INSIDE those clouds of sands, sry viewer, wanna see fights and armies clashing, oh well, won't see any. Maybe another time.
6- Paul's end fight is 1/10 of 1984 Dune version, how the F can you screw the last fight so bad when you have such good example to inspire yourself from. Do the same? YES, Do better? YES, Do 10 to 20 times worse? Meh......
7- How the F, everyone survives when they get a knife right trough their bodies. Where is the good old good knife's kills or at least, you can't walk and have to be patched up right away.
The first movies was very good, and promising for the second. But OH GOSH I regret 80% of the time I spent in the theatre and I am a) a HUGE Denis fan and b) a HUGE Dune fan. Gosh I wanted that movie to be good 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@FlitalidapouetDune 1 was bad. Dune 2 looks bad. I am a book fan, and Denis gutted it and replaced it with woke tripe.
@@jon4715 Other than the visuals, I agree Dune 1 is not that good. As Flit pointed out, the sets and costumes are horrible. This was true in the first movie. Lynch's Dune nailed it. The mini-series worked with the budget it had. Unless there is an outside visual, you have no idea where you are. That's why Andre saying Dune 1 made you feel swept away to somewhere else. I never felt that. Everything is minimalistic and drab. Maybe swept away to a world where brutalist architecture reigns.
I guess somehow Chani understanding what she has to do and not being able to marry is bad why? The mini-series showed her reaction in realistic terms. Doesn't like it, but faces reality.
@@jon4715 there are several things I don’t like about denis adaptation but it’s not woke at all.
Zendaya gets roles because she's ethnically ambiguous not because of talent
The funny thing is even if Chani had been played by a white woman, this Andre person and you would find something to complain about just because the director chose to change story where the female protagonist had more agency and the ability to think for herself. Pathetic 😮
Who else would you have cast then? With the qualifier that they have to 1) be ethnic/brown enough to play chani & 2) match chalamet’s starpower
@@TheAubrey777 replacing men is misandry
as is relegating women to subservient puppets is Misogyny @@doltBmB
@@TheAubrey777 Your entire ideology is based around inventing things to complain about, blaming normal people for all of your problems.
I just saw the movie half an hour ago and I absolutely agree. Another stupid, unnecessary change from the books.
Chani was always on Pauls side, she gave him strength to carry his burdens.
This Chani is an entitled know-it-all. The idea that the Fremen have some kind of internal conflict, that they know about the Missionaria Protectiva, is a huge "F-U" to Frank Herbert.
The fact that Chani can act like an entitled know it all when she's in the presence of the Kwizatz Haderach.
A man who can see all the past and future, including alternate timelines.
Paul puts Doctor Strange to shame when he only saw 14 million possible futures. That's amateur hour. The KH is well beyond that.
There's literally nothing Chani could know that Paul can't already know years in advance. He knows what she'll have for breakfast 10 years from now.
You don't necessarily have to have the guidebook to the Missionaria Protectiva to sniff out when something is bullsh!t. That's just basically saying that every Freman on the planet are gullible idiots that swallow every line that you give them. Millions of people on this planet believe in a god of some sort and then you have millions of other people believe there's no such thing as a god. It's not that unbelievable that Chani would be skeptical about a Messiah or seeing how the Bene Gesserit is also connected in the prophecy thinking they may have had a hand in promulgating this story.
@@protorhinocerator142fuck yeah, dude, Doctor Strange is a fag when compared to Kwisatz.
@@protorhinocerator142bruh just suck Paul's dick already damn. Its not like Chani has no concept of what any if that means and is only there for her people and Paul.
The fact that some people in a society are atheist is not weird at all. It is implied that Chani's generation in the north, shaped by living on the frontline of the war with the Harkonnens since birth are less religious than the southern tribes. This can be explained by the southern hemisphere being believed by the Harkonnens to be uninhabitable.
Is this a change from the source material? Yes. Is it a bad change? We will have to wait and see. In my opinion the change is done to show to a less familiar audience (Who do not know about the happenings of Messiah) that there is some form of opposition to the new Jihad. It also makes sense. Chani and Paul are lovers for the better part of a year during the movie, and Paul is very much bothered by visions of his future, something he likely shared with Chani. Chani would want to avoid that. It is clearly shown in the movie that all she wants is to overthrow the Harkonnen occupation. She has no interest in Paul leading her people to war for his throne. (Sixty billion will die in that war. according to the books) For her, it is enough that Paul declares himself Duke of Arrakis. He already has the nukes pointed at the spice fields. The great houses only intervened when Paul declared his intention to take the Imperial Throne.
Zendaya playing entitled brat? That is what I call perfect casting...
@@BrianRGioia no and I am not interested. I've seen her in spiderman and dune, that was enough of her for me for the rest of my life. She and many other terrible actors/directors/"creators" like her are reasons why I very rarely go to cinema... 40 years ago actor like her would be extra, if lucky at most
We obviously saw different things in her performance. I liked her a lot. ‘Entitled brat’? I don’t agree.
You left out stupid.
In the books she understood that Paul loved her and only married Irulan out of political convenience. She was nothing to him. Chani was everything.
@@protorhinocerator142 In the books they were married for years and had a child together. In the movie, they didn't have the same amount of time to build up that bond. Stupid? Not so much. Just a consequence of the compressed timeline.
@@usiak13damn so by your logic with this one idiotic ignorant comment you made, you must generally be an ignorant idiotic commenter.
it's what I feared. And what's worse Zendaya can emote about as much as Jason Mamoa
Worst casting choices: Duncan, Chani, and Kynes. Not crazy about Thufir. So many things left out its just disappointing.
@@skytalker2b351 I think I was fine with Thufir. But, yup... Jason Mamoa can really only play Jason Mamoa... kind of like The Rock really only ever plays The Rock. I really disliked the Dude Bro aspect they had for Duncan in this iteration. Kynes seemed like they were trying for the ESG/DEI qualifications. The actress was okay in one or two scenes but seemed wrong in others. I am a bit biased though since I am huge fan of Max Von Sydow. The girl boss ending they gave her I don't think was cannon to the books.
@@Grabthar191 According to ME & other channels, the studio/financers forced them to race/gender swap at least one character, and they opted for Liet, even if it it makes no sense. It's wrong, but better it be a character that dies. Maybe with AI, we can fan-edit Max von Sydow into the role. Maybe they should have swapped Yui instead, if they weren't going to tell his story, anyway.
I couldn't see beyond Jason Mamoa in his performance. I never felt like I saw Duncan Idaho. And that's a shame given how central Idaho is in all the subsequent books.
I had no problem with Thufir.
I am pissed, however, at how they glossed over Yui. The fall of House Atreides makes no sense without Yui's corruption. And neither does the attack on the Baron. Or the suspicion within the family, even Leto having to act like he doesn't trust Jessica. So many plot points--just wasted.
Hey now. Gay psycho Jason Mamoa was the highlight of that last fast and furious movie! I love that character! His painting the nails of the 2 he killed was hysterical. So he can emote better than Zendaya 😉😜
@@Grabthar191 Yes, Loved Sydow! "He shall know his ways as if born to them." Love that line! I think the actor in the SciFi miniseries was a pretty good Kynes as well.
You're right to be critical, they completely destroyed the character of Chani and undermined important themes from the source material. Also I don't see how it's going to be possible to make Dune Messiah now without inventing a bunch of shit that isn't from the books.
Hollywood’s social justice warriors would’ve freaked if Chani followed duty and tradition.
You won't get a based movie from the big studios these days. You can only hope for minimal damage.
Liet Kynes is a man.
Or have some dignity and don’t watch it.
@@angrytoybox2033
In cinema never!
On high seas maybe because you can skip!
"A based movie"
True, they couldn't just let the main character have his moment as the hero because he was male, just had to lay the ground work for a future woke franchise that will discredit the films
They just can't help themselves and must insert their lunacy in every movie. It won't stop until we stop going to see anything at all anymore. Once it collapses, Indie Movies can pick up and tell actual stories that entertain, not lecture.
The wokeness will stop when the WOKE era is over.
@@quintongarner3907No doubt Trump will come to the rescue in November and restore the USA (and Hollywood) to it's former greatness...
God bless America.
@@quintongarner3907 To be replaced by something even worse.
My biggest problem was the Harkonens. They were so one dimensional. Every scene was just them killing underlings. Surprised no one didn't call this out.
They were portrayed that way in the books, though. (At least the first few. Maybe they were redeemed in later books, but I doubt it.)
@@uranuslad9855 Feyd is different in the books, at least in my reading. He is more of an anti hero. Imagine growing up with the Baron as your uncle. Feyd hates the Baron more than Paul does and even attempts to assassinate him in novel which his uncle forgives him for and tries to dissuade him by making Feyd his Heir and gaining the imperial throne for him. In many ways Feyd was a victim of circumstances of being born a Harkonen instead of an Atredies. My point being the in book version of the story. Feyd /Paul are like two sides of the same coin. The Baron was portrayed as more cunning in the novel. I understand for time and streamlining the story for film was necessary but I felt they could have added more nuance to Feyd than just portraying him as a ruthless phycho but instead a young man growing up with ruthless mentors such as the Baron and his brother Rabban and just using coping strategies to survive his evil Uncle violent appetite. . All said I loved the movie and it's a great adaptation. It's just Feyd Rutha was one of my favorite characters in the book.
I did like how freakish their planet was.
That black sun and how the whole world looked black and white. A bunch of Voldemort looking Mad Max weirdos spraying their teeth.
I don't remember this in the books but it was disturbing.
@@protorhinocerator142 I agree the black sun scene was cool on Geidi Prime.
They were worse in the books. They’re mustache twirling villains in both the books and movies.
Zendaya. Currently the highest paid checkbox on the DEI list. ZERO acting capability
Lynch Dune doesn't get nearly enough love. No one will ever change my mind on this. His addition of the grotesque makes it such a fascinating, disturbing experience
Agreed totally. Lynch added his grotesque touch to this universe and it worked. That's also how I discovered his movies.
It's hard to judge Lynch's Dune properly as all aesthetics we got in Dune-Dune2-Dune2000-Emperor:battle for Dune descended from David's movie. Better adaptation from more civilized time.
I agree. The Lynch film was my introduction to Dune. Loved it ever since. SpiceDiver's fan edit "Redux" made it even better. Loved how the scifi mini series stuck to the books better, but hated the costumes. I love the look and feel of the new movies, but hate the changes and things left out. How about someone produce a comic with the look that combines Lynch and Denis that sticks to the books?
Yes, indeed. But it's from a different time. Also, we know that that project got on a bad track. Lynch also didn't get final cut nor runtime he wanted.
And obviously, the story is way to big for a short movie.
It has more imagination then the new versions by a long shot.
To bad, Jodorowsky's version never made it. Or, maybe it will in the future... definitely not pg13
You are reaching brother 😂
I agree...they are testing us to see what level of the message we are willing to tolerate and still pay for. I'm personally not going to eat the meal that ONLY has a small turd in it.
Same. I am sick of it so I don't even mess with the good movies. I just pirate and I had no prob spending money and I still will spend money on things I can justify. But I don't want to fund the bag stuff with the good stuff.
They're changing people's perceptions too. Years ago I used to absolutely love strong women in action roles. Now I cant stomach them at all, even if they're well written (which is rare). I think I've been force fed so many strong whamen over the last few years, I've had enough to last me the rest of my lifetime and then some.
@kerravon4159 that's the truth. My feeling as well. Now I scrutinize more than ever. Just can't suspend disbelief as much any more. Don't even want to take a chance.
@@kerravon4159 100% agree. I still love the old ones though, like resident evil and underworld. I just can't stomach any of this new stuff that sometimes borders on hate speech and often is just a blatant attempt at social programming. If i'm watching an action or sci-fi movie...I just want entertainment that immerses me and is done by attractive professionals. Its ironic that older movies/franchises did include messaging about problems with society, but they did it in a way that wasn't targeted hate speech or denigrating anyone. I mean, that's literally the story of the underworld movie franchise. Take away the supernatural mask of werewolves and vampires and there is the social commentary...but no one hated that. No one had an issue with Selene actually being hot, female, heterosexual, or with her skin color. Its definitely going to take a significant cooling off period from when/if they stop putting out this trash...until we can stomach anything that even remotely looks like strong wamen again.
What do you think they did in 2020-22. How much tyranny can you push on the people before they start to push back.
I saw this today and agree with this 100%. In the books, Paul never left her side and she never left his.
The turning point is when she slaps Paul after he comes out of the coma and then runs off. This is super unexpected and not in line with the tough-as-nails character we saw up to this point.
Im glad someone called it out. I really didnt like zendaya in the movie... she was just pissed for 90% of the runtime and it got old pretty quick... there were other issues with the film but that was my biggest gripe
Every time I saw her, that tune from The Ballad of Buster Scruggs played in my head: the Surly Joe song.
I always wondered what would happen if activists spreading their _message_ were actually subtle and competent about doing it. We've never seen that, until now apparently.
They have been working their way up to this point with the subtlety. Its just that previously...they were combining the sledge hammer with the nuance. Now they are trying to only go with the nuance. We just have to pay more attention to see it.
We used to see it all the time, this ham-fisted forcing of political messaging is a recent thing brought on by the death of talent.
They used to all the time. Unions got powerful enough to protect bad writers with the right politics.
@@NorthstarLNC I think I prefer them incompetent, ham-fisted and mega-cringeworthy. It makes the whole 'get woke go broke' thing so much easier.
@@jwt6577 I'd agree with that, older shows had their messaging too, but it was usually subtle, clever and never more important than (or entirely replacing) entertainment value.
Paul committing himself to Zendaya is probably the most unconvincing part of Dune so far...."what does he see in her" lol
I know I was looking at her saying he wasn't a freman after all her people accepted him as one but to her he isn't one but somehow he can become one if she decides get f*ck outta here and her riding a bigger worm then paul. 😒😒
But it ends well. He's gonna marry the Emperor's hot daughter. This should be a lesson to young women out there: If you keep wearing your resting bitch face, give your boyfriend the silent treatment and not shower for a decade, he might move on.
In the book, kynes is her father ( in Dune Part 1 they gender changed him to a woman).
The reason Paul and Chani first connect in the book, is because they both just lost their respective fathers and both hate the harkonen.
By changing this, and removing the father son connection, they f* up, and made their relation a bit more random.
If you racist just say that
@@issa4767 shut the f*ck up loser go with your woke racist feminist infested shyt somewhere else with your bull these are the type of people we gotta start putting and making feel like the piece of sh*t they are at no f*cking time did he bring up her skin color idiot
I knew from the beginning what was going to happen. Not using "Jihad" was the first sign.
Exactly. Villeneuve has no balls.
But Jihad makes no sense. The Fremen aren't muslims, and it doesn't mean holy war.
@@carontorliak2760 its the word Herbert used. And i think even though the fremen arent muslim it fits perfectly
@@kevindorn2508 but that is what I am saying, Jihad doesn't mean Holy War. It should be called Harb Mukaddasah. Back then people just called it Jihad because they didn't know what it meant...now we know.
@@carontorliak2760 it doesnt matter what you think or feel about it, jihad is the word that Herbert used and we all know what it means, thats the point. And the only reason its not used is because its not pc today. Its dangerous to pi$$ of the religion of peace. Much safer to just not touch the thing. Nobody wants to get a fatwa...ask Rushdi
It was the embrace of religion that made the Fremen a formidable force. They were united in a singular cause... awaiting a messiah to free them from the bondage of spice-mining slavery. Paul became that messiah, and their religion morphed around him.
On top of everything else, the Fremen were the descendants of religious pilgrims, in line with the ACTUAL cultures the Fremen were based off. To take a dig at their "religious groups" is to insult their own ancestry, but as a side note, ALSO the real-world cultures.
@@sigmacademy Thats what I found a little off in the movie with the North and South Fremen, they would never look down on the other because how much more zealot they were to the religion if anything all Fremen wanted their Jihad because of how strong in belief they had to Paul's ascension.
Yeah I had the same exact reaction to the northerns/southern fremen and Shani storming out. The year 2000 mini series suffers from a lack of budget but in many ways it's still superior to the new movies.
Its no the "Cinema" experience as this is, and its amazing cinema, but yes the miniseries was trying to actually tell Herberts story not just use it as a reference. Its always the
arrogance of even great film makers when they think "I can do it better", no you cant. If you could, you would write a better book.
The 2000s mini-series is the superior viewing experience. I wish people would stop obsessing over "gwaphics" (intentionally misspelled) and "realism" in visual effects. There's a lot of great stories out there with little budget but more heart and story than the most expensive big budget dumpster fires will ever achieve.
I haven't watched the new movie, but I saw the 2000 "Dune" mini series and the "Children of Dune" follow-up. The effects weren't top-rate, and some of the acting was uneven, but the worldbuilding was MUCH better than what I saw in the 2021 "Dune" movie. The 2021 iteration left me more dead inside than anything else, like they just didn't get it.
The 2000 miniseries was my version of Star Wars and got me into the books as a young person. I can acknowledge it's limitations while genuinely believing that as a totality it is superior to anything else we have as a representation of the books.
@@Sensorium19I think the series then succeeded perfectly for you at least. Kind of like GOT first season did for many people, and then George fucked us with his "writers block" for the last 2 books.
I thought Chani in the mini-series was well done. Kind of high-born, confident, but bound by her culture and events, both in love and profoundly anxious about Paul and the ambiguous future ahead.
YES.
I just got out of the theater. I immediately hopped online to search out feedback that touched on this issue and your review completes many of the thoughts that were taking shape, for me.
Chani is the BIGGEST gripe I have about Dune part 2. To be clear, it wasn’t so much Zendaya’s 1 dimensional performance, but rather the overuse of a background character, to obviously push an agenda, which ultimately took away from time to develop other key content, that was far more pertinent to the film. She gets waaaaay too much screen time and it really doesn’t further the story, at all. It furthers HER story, but not THE story. Sure, it somewhat highlights Paul’s change, but there’s objectively better ways they could’ve spent all that redundant screen time, that she hogged. Cut half of her scenes and replace them with Feyd Rautha stuff and the movie becomes objectively more iconic. He was the best part of the movie, anyway. (This segways into a different critique, but he was painfully underutilized, as a villain. I think he could’ve potentially rivaled Heath Ledger’s performance as The Joker, but they waited halfway through the film to introduce him, then proceeded to give him leftovers and make his death painfully cliche.)
Her angst just became a pesky disruption of the bigger picture. Her role has clearly become the conduit for woke-isms. There’s otherwise no compelling reason to highlight her growing butt-hurt, over and over, because it’s obviously a desperate attempt to force a strong, independent black woman to the forefront of the story. It wasn’t smooth, or well executed, either. I constantly felt rudely interrupted, from being on the edge of my seat, to rolling my eyes harder and harder, as the film continued to force-feed me Paul and Chani’s side-dish romance, as the main course. What Hollywood, Disney, Amazon MGM studios and whoever else fails to realize, is that these interjections ONLY come across as interjections, no matter how subtly they are mixed in and the content always suffers from it.
The fact that they decided to end the movie with her pouting, like she already did for 75% of the film, really just undermined the profoundness of everything else we just watched transpire. That was such a terrible ending to leave us with, for the next two years. I’m absolutely not looking forward to what they do with Chani in the next movie, which unfortunately, makes me over-all less enthusiastic to see the next movie. Hollywood just can’t help themselves. 🫤
Sean Young was a better Chani, not to mention easier on the eyes.
I actually liked the Chani one from the tv mini series best, but I agree...the casting was off with both main characters this time.
i agree new chani looks to miserable and girl boss for a guy like paul same with the emperors daughter, too butch
Sean Young came across as mysterious: she was not that well known as an actress at the time.
@@samuraichicken2315 "At the time," you say?" Heck, even today, other than "Dune" and "Blade Runner," I can probably count the number of roles I've seen her play on one hand...
Sean Young was just as mid and had even less to do.
And how does the movie end? With Paul victorious, and also troubled with what lies ahead? No, we have Chani sulking and scowling in the dunes, which is basically how she spends the entire film. How anyone could feel empathy for this cow is beyond me.
I mean...it also ends with Paul victorious and troubled...both are true.
Both of which are accurate to the books. Chani was not at the final fight.@@kylemcfarlan
she just watched the man she loved go away with another woman. she didn't make a scene just silently left. just because you hate the actress doesn't mean it was bad writing. that's the normal reaction of a human and specially someone who's mature enough to understand the world doesn't revolve around them. just because the book Chani was willing to be the side bitch doesn't mean everyone will.
no but in the books she was highly supportive of Paul in every decision he made, including marrying Irulan. They couldn't go for that in 2024, seems Villenauve caved in to the western political BS
@@stonaraptor8196that's not some woke garbage. Women men most people don't tolerate such relationships. Unless you mean the middle east. It's sad that you have gone so far to the opposite end that you can't tell common decency from woke BS. Remember never go full crazy
This is why I thought the 2000 Sci-Fi channel miniseries was that much better.
All I wanted from Villeneuve's version was the spectacle of the Lynch version but with the screenplay of the TV series. It would have been an easy win if he did that instead of what we got in reality.... 😔
Yes, it was!
agreed 100pc
@@Latinkon Exactly. It is rare anyone says the Lynch's Dune doesn't look and feel like the book. Other than a couple of quibbles, everyone likes that part. Meanwhile, the 2000 miniseries gets love for being faithful. It even has the shield look that DV uses.
Agreed
I thought the Chani character was a Fremen boy the first time I saw her on screen.
Thats the point of most modern shows, masculine females because current ideology is women should never do anything for a man such as draw the male gaze
You'd think wrapping a woman in a tight leather outfit would be sexy. But they managed to screw that up. Step one: start with a woman.
I watched Last Voyage of the Demeter last night, an example of non subtle messaging. Mid movie I started thinking I should just accept this is how it is. But when the cross didn’t work against Dracula twice I decided to continue calling this crap out.
The casting killed it before it even started. Black British doctor in that period? When the vampires aren't the most fantastical element of your vampire movie there's a problem.
Not to mention the gender swapping of the 2 significant characters depicted the dace they already plenty of “strong women” characters. Not only did this eliminate Otheum, it eliminated his extremely significant mission.
Look, they want more woman in the army. And if not in the army then just to motivate/irritate men more. Or put more couples under stress. It's the US after all.
And tons of other problems
Just saw the movie, gosh it was bad.
1- costumes are horrible, why emperors, barons, princesses and empress have drab ugly clothes? WTF?
2- everting is dark, grey, black, can't remember seeing ANY color. No saying it's not there, but simply not enough. Richest empire in the universe, but no colors, no drapes, no bright decorations, no colorful banners, no gold, no jewels. I supposed they all made vows of poverty. 🤣🤣🤣
3- Princess Irulan looks like she bough her dress at a thrift store or rebate isle at Walmart. Go look at the costume of 1984 Dune and compare. If Denis's Irulan would ask me for sex, I would jump off a building instead. I got a gag reaction in the theatre. I was dreaming to marry Princess Irulan for years when I was a kid, talk about killing a dream.
4- stupid useless arguments between Paul and Chani LOOSING time that could have been used explaining the spice, the bene geserit, the Imperial family, what are abominations, etc...... but naaaaah bitch resting face has to wine for 30 to 40 minutes.
And my gruel bowls give me way more loves vibes then the tree bark that is Chani. Felt like she hates Paul all along.
5- the ending assault, well you won't see any of it, clouds of sands everywhere and where are the fights, INSIDE those clouds of sands, sry viewer, wanna see fights and armies clashing, oh well, won't see any. Maybe another time.
6- Paul's end fight is 1/10 of 1984 Dune version, how the F can you screw the last fight so bad when you have such good example to inspire yourself from. Do the same? YES, Do better? YES, Do 10 to 20 times worse? Meh......
7- How the F, everyone survives when they get a knife right trough their bodies. Where is the good old good knife's kills or at least, you can't walk and have to be patched up right away.
The first movies was very good, and promising for the second. But OH GOSH I regret 80% of the time I spent in the theatre ....... and I am a) a HUGE Denis fan and b) a HUGE Dune fan.
Gosh I wanted that movie to be good 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Kynes is a woman. 😂
Who got swapped?
@@booster330 Half-Fremen planetologist Liet Kynes WORSE OF IT ALL He was Shani's father, and the reasons she hates Harkonnen so much and she wan't Paul to kill them all is because Harkonnen kill her father. By gender swapping, you erase 1- Shani's motivations, hatred, and evil bloodlust (she turns near evil in the books, no problem with billions dying) 2- you erase Shani's father 3- you erase the reason why Shani choose Paul (both father killed by Harkonnen's, creating a bond between them)
That was my biggest concern - the Chani-Sue factor, since the book is Paul's journey and well that's a bit contentious in the here and now..
The ending definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. I could have lived with everything else before it but Chani storming out just felt childish. And ending with a scene focused on her felt misdirected.
Couldn't have said it better myself, they couldn't just let the main character have his moment as the hero because he was male, just had to lay the ground work for a future woke franchise that will discredit the films
@@ClanSCC There are no heroes in Dune.
@@ClanSCC He is not a hero. He is a monster, and he and Chani knows that.
@@velenteriushendeneros3251 true, but he's still the best chance at trying to control the hurricane of destruction headed out across the universe.
But that's what you're meant to slowly realise reading Messiah. Dune itself is a hero's journey. The sequel turns that on its head. It doesn't need to be spelled out for us and the story doesn't need to be changed so drastically.
Zendaya has one facial expression.
A scowl mostly.
Stunningly beautiful.
@@mopcambmm3185 resting bih face*
I would add "snarky c*nt* to it though, so, two facial expressions.
@@mopcambmm3185Haha. She's HIDEOUS.
And that expression is "Shut up Meg".
They fucked up the ending. Also means dune messiah will have to be significantly rewritten to follow the that change.
Agreed. I was so disappointed with the ending. Lynch’ ending was much better.
I can already see a major problem with Dune Messiah.
SPOILER
In the books, Chani dies during childbirth to produce Leto II and Ghanima. Paul saw it coming but never told her.
As Kwizatz Haderach, he had to choose how his own wife would die. That's pretty messed up, and it disturbed him.
I don't expect Hollywood to allow Chani to die giving birth to Paul's children.
They're going to have to give her a big bottle of bulletproof juice so she can "strong woman" her way out of this fate.
A major aspect of Alia's character has been screwed up already.
@@darrenoconnell2891I don’t like Chani … But how on Earth is 1984 better ? It has significantly more changes than this movie
@@thecarter8700 Sean Young
Razorfist said it best. The best you can hope for from big budget movies these days is that they'll be just short of excellent. Barring a moment where they briefly derail the whole plot to lecture the audience on 'the current thing'.
Despite Zendaya's best efforts to ruin the movie, I still enjoyed it.
It was the best movie I have seen in quite a while, and definitely worth going to the theater to see. I would recommend Imax.
It was the most immersive world building I have seen since the original Avatar.
Well, Villeneuve is to blame as well, i think. He fucked up Blade runner and it was box office bomb. BUT, he was given this tentpole with the budget of 160mln dollars. He makes a 4 hour movie. Studio asks to cut it, and that makes sense. Villeneuve chooses his style over the story. Spectacle over character development. I really dont understand how it is not obvious.
@@CATDHDAnd yet I'd be happy to watch a 4 hour DC. Most people can't want a movie over 90 mins. My son hates watching a movie under 120. I go for the sound, acting, imagination, world building and this movie did all that wonderfully. The small bit of woke crap was obvious but paled overall.
@@protorhinocerator142bruh what you have against Zendaya, she isn't Chani in real life. Blame the writer if you habe to.
@@CATDHD No, he made one 4 hour movie with the combined budgets of two movies, so it's $165 million + $190 million = $355 million total. So, the break-even point is around $355 * 2 = $710 million with an expectation of $1 billion + future franchise and spin offs. To its benefit, it's already close to the break-even point ($410 million + whatever Dune 2 makes), but the opportunity cost of these two movies is massive at around half a decade.
I totally agree that these movies are an excess of style without the characterization.
The SciFi channel miniseries remains unsurpassed because of its respect for the source material, something Hollywood film makers seem incapable of embracing.
100% agreed
True but the explanation is in the format as you point out. 4-5 hours is not enough.
And in 2024 it's hard to sell a "concubine" character, let alone one who embraces it when the protagonist appears to dump her as soon as he gets the chance.
@@Alvan81 Maybe they should not mess with stories that contain such characters. Maybe.
What does 2024 has to do with 10.191? :D
@technomancer5449 Cute Retort, but it's not 10,191 now is it? The brilliant source material is from 1965....
I've been reading it since 1975 and I'm a male, so my tolerance for things/terms like concubine polygamy, sword/knife fighting is much higher than large swaths of current audiences. I feel like you're deliberately ignoring my point: About the impossiblity of condensing that huge amount of material into 5 hours, whether you "respect it" or not.
The glossary alone would take
15/20 minutes to do justice.
I am much younger then you and let me tell you, it does not please me at all, that they change key elements of a well established universe in the name of pandering to..."current audience"... Why touch on things specifically that consumes no time yet changes the piece?
Also: Honestly, what the hell a writer should care about the personal tolerance levels of a reader? Freck that. Either you take the work for what it is or not. Imagine H.P. Lovecraft in modern times. Hells bells. We need more Self-Centered Female Lead Shoggots and transgender Mi-Gos...
YES. The Dune 2000 mini series was very close to the source material... I also loved the second mini series which followed for Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. I will wait till this one hits streaming IF I decide to watch it... Part 1 in this NEW dune was a bitter pill to swallow as it is.
honestly, if you love Dune (books and syfy miniseries) don't bother with this one. I liked part 1 but this was hot garbage
This is really a logical reaction in the movie context. She has zero understanding of noble houses politics and the movie does not bother to show Paul explaining his plan for political "alliance" with house Corino by marriage. The movie almost make it seem like Irulan was quick on her feet and came up with this so her father would not die.
I had more issues with the complete omission of the spacing guild that in the book, effectively controlled the empire along with the Bene Gesserit.
In the book, the Fremen are polygamous, and Paul already has another wife--the widow of Jamis. Also in the book, since it takes place over years, the fact that Paul doesn't marry Chani must have been for the same reason as his father never married Jessica--to keep the possibility of an alliance by marriage. In the book, no doubt that Jessica explained this to Chani and told her explicitly what her role had to be and that a political marriage would come. The fact that Jessica ends the book with "History will call us wives" is evidence that she had to explain these things to Chani.
If the movie compresses the timeline to a few months--which is nonsense for fighting a planet-scale war--then it could make sense that Chani wasn't prepared.
It's also possible that it won't mess up Dune Messiah in that there's some severe competition between Irulan & Chani in that book. Having Chani reject & hate Irulan fits fine.
@@theevermind It did gave it a nice Godfather vibe as in muad'dib won the empire but Paul lost his soul (Chani).
Didn't really mind the change. had more problems with the guild removal.
Nah, based on this, the movie just dumbed down channi, book channi was skeptic but loved paul beyind all else, and paul taking Jamis' wife should already have prepared her for what was to come as pauls mother also did, after she consoled her with that badass line, history will remwber us as wives....
This just makes channi look like a ueadstrong gf that understand nothing
@@theevermindirulan did poison Chani in the books and caused her early death, so they might focus on that relationship in the third movie.
@@MrCodey360I don’t even think it was the marriage idea that bothered Chani so much as watching Paul turn into the Messiah that he feared. She did love Paul but she was witnessing him lose his way and his soul.
Thank you for mentioning the 2 Sci-fi mini series.
As a hard fan of original Dune, that I read more than 10 times, you nailed. The last scene is just totally off.
1984 Chani: beautiful, loving and supportive
2024 Chani: tomboy, angry and feminist
I KNEW IT! I KNEW I WAS RIGHT NOT TO SEE THESE MOVIES! Also, I just can’t watch something with Zendaya, I just can’t.
Why? I'm just curious why you dislike Zendaya.
"Also, I just can’t watch something with Zendaya, I just can’t."
That makes at least two(2) of us.
@@Age_of_Apocalypse can you explain why. I just want to understand.
@errgoth You don’t see it? She’s so annoying and 1 the most offensive thing about her is that she isn't even hot (Sean Young was beyond hot back in the day)! She's just their new woke representation puppet that that ticks all the boxes and Hollywood is trying so hard to ram her down everyone's throats. The sooner they (get) (rid) (of) her the better.
She's awful, but at least she's more bearable than Matthew McConaughey.
Big fan of the books here.
After the following book scenes /changes: removing the banquet scene, the capturing of Jessica and Paul by the Baron, the h0m0/ped0 Vladimir Harkonnen scenes, the killing of the two thopter crew members by Paul is swapped to Jessica, and of course race + gender Liet Kynes's pivotal role in the books, I didn't pay for the first movie, nor will I pay for the second. The mini series of 2000 and Lynch's movie do respect the book more than the SUBVERTED EXPECTATIONS of Villeneuve. So no way.
How about 30-year old Paul, "voice-guns", rain on Arrakis and other Lynch nonsence? Didn't it "subvert the expectations"?
I get why this movie is criticised, and I agree, but I will never get the defence of Lynch's version.
Spot on! Chani not only doubted Paul in the movie, but she actively voiced her opposition to him in public, endangering, not only his destiny, but his life. It's such a huge fundamental change from the source material, it might as well have been an different story.
For detailed information about Lynch's version of "Dune", check out "A Masterpiece in Disarray: David Lynch’s Dune - An Oral History", by Max Evry. Participants talk about a four or five hour cut (depending on who is telling it), that was apparently fantastic. It also discusses the desire to make it as two films, but that was shot down by the producers and distributers. Massive scenes were filmed and cut, or abandoned before they were finished, or in some cases never filmed even though sets and costumes had been created for them. John Dykstra was working on the effects until changes to California tax laws forced him to pull out. At one point Lynch was even working on a sequel script.
another Hollywood lost opportunity
You just generated an Amazon sale - never heard of the book and had to buy it immediately. Thanks for the tip ! Huge fan of Lynch's film and thought I had read everything.😁
@@faithfulsearching6452 For the record, I have no connection whatsoever to the book or author. I came across it myself a few months ago and, like you, just had to buy it :)
@@lorencain9551 NP ! None assumed, and thanks again for mentioning it. Saw Lynch's original in theatres 10 times during original release, read the Making of Dune book and every article or interview I could get my hands on. Bit of a "hobby" you could call it 😄.
5:30 I love Andre / right here he cites that he’s a certified nerd and esteemed critic of cinema - super bad ass moment of the video
Wait..... he...... READ BOOKS?
*PANICS *
+ a woman hater and a Lousy one at that. He's disgusting
@@lesath7883 lol
Zendaya had a constant "someone pooped in my cereal" look on her face throughout the entire movie.
Dune Part 2 ruined Chani.
I fucking knew it. Thank you for sparing me the time and money!
Just read the book. I don't care how visionary they think they're director is they will never be able to do dune Justice.
The best attempts still had to seriously divert. I felt like the new one was 2.5hrs long and only told me half the story that Lynch had in less time.
their*
I'm re-reading it again. And truth, no movie will ever match the book. But that's the same with every book. Heck LOTR also cut a lot of stuff. So I'll enjoy the movie for what it is. And love the book for what it is. They can coexist
An animated TV show could work.
@@Gakusangi That's the thing. There is slow build-up and then there is the DV slog to get on with the story. The mini-series covered a lot more in about the same amount of time.
That dude that plays Chani always looks mad.
It's actually the dude playing Surly Joe in the movie Buster Scruggs.
Yah....they shouldn't have hired Spider-Mans grumpy boyfriend.
For reference, Chani was one of the whitest characters in any of the dune books, and was described as such, being a tawny-tone redhead with visible freckles in the book. The 1980s dune had a lot of problems and got a lot of things wrong, but chani's character and appearance was not one of the things they got wrong.
Casting was the strongest part of the Lynch Dune (exept the 30-year old Paul).
As a HUGE Dune buff, I hate this movie so much. The low budget 2000s SYFY show felt better.
Elon's AI will fix it, if democrats don't use their corrupt judges to bankrupt him like they are doing with Trump.
Pathetic this movie was grear
@@Yanel5795 stick to marvel movies then champ
Same. If you have 0 knowledge of the books i see why you'd like this movie because it doesn't seem woke.
But if you read the book(s) this movie is Last Jedi
@@SumoOrange1776 it may not seem woke because the women in the og story are so strong without being Mary sued to hell, but Chani was more strong as a mother and priestess figure than warrior (even though she offered to duel any pretenders to Paul's station lmao what a ladychad)
Well put about the last jedi. I dred the inevitable sequel which will turn a great deconstruction of Paul and his cursed powers into so much woke trash
All the lavish praise makes my guard come up.
take it from a HUGE dune buff that also understands the necessity of changing things for a film adaptation - it's bad.
Lavish praise where?
@@TexasProSIM From all the normies.
Yeah, I fell for it. I listened to the critical drinkers rave review - he's is usually spot on, now I think he's a psyop.
The changes make it seem like a dumbed down angst ridden teen drama.
Two great points. Such a beautiful film that ruined some crucial stuff. Paul and Chani together at the end. Not this maddening fake film ending.
I find it funny how this is the one aspect of the movie you focus on. If you read the book, there is a larger problem with the adaptation than Chani storming off at the end. That is the almost complete omission of the Guild which is the entire reason Dune and the Spice are so important. I personally understand that this could be difficult for a larger audience unfamiliar with the books to understand and require almost another movie just to explain it. I loved both movies, but if I were to focus on one flaw it would the complete absence of the Navigator's Guild and not this one nitpicky aspect of Chani.
I really don't know how I feel about going to a third movie. Why did Zendaya have to take over Chani?
You are completely right, the religion of the freeman was the most important thing that made them strong and difficult to get rid of. The theme was that religion was a evolutive adaptation for humans that we will still need in the future
But it just wasn't the religion though. The harsh environment of Arrakis had just as much to do with making the Fremen as tough as they were. Everyone thought a large part of the planet was uninhabitable, which is why they thought the Fremen population was relatively small. I do like that some Fremen weren't as fanatical as others and didn't buy the Messiah story as readily as others. Just because a population can be very religious doesn't mean that everyone in that group believes the same way.
@@nicolettetallmadge3254 You don't understand, the fremen (even the fanatical) were not following Paul blindly at all, in fact Paul was a hostage to the fremen because if he f'ed up, he would be killed. But its clear that people like you doesn't understand nuances
@@nicolettetallmadge3254 Everyone believed in the Voice from the Outer World. Not everyone thought that person was Paul, or that he should be a fighter leader vs spiritual leader. But they all believe in the Lisan al-Gaib. This is not some Bene Gesserit knocking on your door, "Do you want to hear the good news about the Messiah 30 minutes ago. The Missionaria Protectivia has been molded and spread with a purpose through the universe for thousands of years.
Andre pretending to not be American, that's the most obvious Milwaukee accent I've ever heard, don't you know.
the funniest part is that DV said that Chani is his favorite character... then proceeded to flip her personality and role in the story...
Thank you for your critique. I FELT the same way. The first movie never developed the Dr. Yuri story( maybe edited out). Jason Mamoa did not act the part well. He was just playing Jason mamoa. The Original Dune movie( Lynch) had its flaws but i felt it captured the Dune world well with great actors.
the sci-fi chani was hot.
That's difficult to beat when she went topless in one scene 😅
Sci-Fi Alia was even hotter.
You're a 100% spot on in your analysis. The way they wrote Chani's Melt down During the second part of the movie was a real distraction and disservice to the original material. And it doesn't make sense given the Context of the movie. The idea that these people are willing to die for their own liberation, take on an empire but she can't reconcile herself to the fact that Paul needs to marry someone in order to increase the likelihood of less bloodshed? I just didn't make sense to me.
why blame Zendaya, when the director gets the final say. If he is not happy with her scenes then there are retries and request for tone changes that he can easily make.
She did what she was hired to do.
Villeneuve is not an actor's director. He cares almost entirely about set pieces and brutalistic minimalistic production design.
@@CATDHD priority order I am sure always is.
No chemistry, no connection on her part. Poor casting
Firstly, I think its fair game to look at Zendaya's portrayal of Chani under a critical lens.
I have read the books and understand that this version isn't faithful to the source material. I also understand that in order for the movie to be accessible to the widest audience possible that some alterations to plot or characters were going to be necessary. The director has made its explicitly known that he had to choose what perspective to tell the story he wanted. He elected to focus his interpretation around the bene gesserit using religion as an instrument to wield power over alternative ones, for example Paul's experience as a mentat. So keeping that decision in mind, I think it gives us a clue as to why other female characters, like Chani, have been given more prominence than they would otherwise have in the book or another interpretation. Chani therefore acts as a counter weight character to the many characters lending to the religious momentum mounting throughout the movie. Which is necessary, as there aren't any other stand out characters to remind the audience of this countering view; the only one being the other northern fremen girl, Chani's friend, who is killed when Feyd Rautha takes over on Arrakis.
The director recognized that a voice of reason amongst the amassing jihad was needed, and he over did it by not distributing it amongst more than just the Chani character. At almost, if not all, the various fremen culture ceremonies (reverend mother ritual, meeting of elders, so on) Chani is outspoken and disruptive...which is a little unbelievable and the more it happens the more unbearable/predictable it becomes. This wears on the audience's tolerance of Chani, and at the same time, again, she is supposed to represent the voice of reason so she is supposed to be there acting this way. It simply isn't a well developed component of the writing and character. It would have been more effective to show more northerners or individual fremen being non-religious and reluctant to give into the prophecy than to leave it soley to Chani to demonstrate to the audience.
With the point made that Chani, or the script, wasn't developed enough to address or express a convincing resistance to the bene gesserit religion amongst the Fremen, I would next like to point out where I think a lot of people are conflating Zendaya and this version of the Chani character. We are all aware of the political bias of Hollywood and who Zendaya is/ what she represents in the popular culture, especially to Gen Z women. Many people leading up to even the first movie anticipated Zendaya to only play herself and bring with her the "female empowerment" standard everything seems to need to be held to. At the very least she is at risk of being one-dimensional as an actress in the same way Dwayne Johnson is always playing himself no mater the role. But does Zendaya overstep her bounds as Chani in the moive? I dont think she does. But I do think that the story wasn't developed enough in the sense of convincingly representing Fremen rationalist characters that were doubtful of Paul and the prophecy; and that due to that short coming Chani was made to convey that point to the audience exclusively. Which detracted from Chani in every other way, and since most people are already primed to take issue with Zendaya....we arrive with the criticisms about Zendaya and the character.
This isn't to say there wasn't a problem or you don't have a point, but I think you could have a bias that could be distracting you from the writing and direction failing to wrangle in Chani and make her ,or other doubtful fremen, a believable faction within the story.
“Having a lover or two was tacitly accepted as long as it was done discreetly” or right out in the open with the official title of “mistress of the king “ if you’re French
It's good to be the King.
Par for the course in Hollywood these days - Plenty of flash and CGI, and bend the source material to fit heir own vision and /or narrative.
Villeneuve either doesn't get it, or more likely, doesn't care.
Hollywood is political. Is it surprising that there are games that directors and producers must play in order to gain favor with the current powerbrokers? Business is a function of culture. Once the Hollywood factor is removed, it won't be surprising to discover that films could be made with different narratives.
@@nanka337not to mention the movie was literally financed by Blackrock as well, y'know, the real Harkonnens of our time.
Definitely a valid take on chani. I wouldn't put it past Denis Villeneuve to work that all out in a questionable sequel if the opportunity arises. It would show character development for her to realize the burden and sacrifice needed to achieve a very fragile peace.
First, I enjoyed Dune 2 very much, it was a stunning cinematic feast. However, thank you for being one reviewer that saw the same problems with this movie that I did. Frank Herbert's Dune novels are some of my favorites and I have read all six of them several times over the years. I wondered why they changed the character Liet Kynes in Dune 1 from a man, and the father of Chani, to a woman. Chani could never have derided Paul for not being a pure Fremen in Dune 2 if Liet Kynes, an offworlder, had been her father. Chani and the group of "northernerers" would never have been against the beliefs of their people. There simply was never any division among the Fremen pre-jihad. How could they mount a united front in the jihad (oops, holy war) to come with such division? There is never any real chemistry between Chalamet and Zendaya on the screen, mainly due to the way Chani's character is written. She comes off more as an antagonist than a lover and strong partner of Paul (this can only lead to major deviations if Dune Messiah is eventually made). Villeneuve also wrote out two other male characters in the film. We never again see the mentat Thufir Hawat and the husband of Lady Margot Fenring, the Count Hasimir Fenring, a close friend of the emperor, is never shown. But he made sure to give air time and lines to an unknown Fremen woman friend of Chani's so they both could mock Stilgar and his religious beliefs. I could say more, but will leave it at that. I will give Villeneuve credit for making two epic Dune movies, but for me it is not THE Dune, but an entertaining, tarnished, Hollywood influenced version of the story.
You're right on, Andre. I really enjoyed the experience, but the changes were definitely well hidden messaging.
I found part two to be disappointing, considering all the changes made from the original book. The fact that Paul’s sister wasn’t even born was also very disappointing.
Kudos on pronouncing Denis Villeneuve's name perfectly! You're the first of my regular UA-cam watches that nails it!
You are absolutely correct, I don't want a "modern dune" if it means that they will change dune to fit into the "modern audience"
That audience being BlackRock aka the Harkonnens but lame.
Denis Villeneuve explained why he changed Chani for the movie. Here's the quote. Make of it what you want:
"When Frank Herbert wrote the book, and then when the book came out, he was disappointed by how people perceived Paul Atreides. At the time, he felt that people were talking about Paul as a hero, and for him, he was an anti-hero. He was a dark figure. The book was a warning for him about a Messianic figure.
And for that, he wrote Dune Messiah to correct [that] and to make sure that people understood his intention. I knew that story. I had the benefit of having read Dune Messiah, so I wrote Part 2 having that in mind. That is why Chani's character is slightly different in my adaptation than in the book, and it helped me to bring the initial intention of Frank Herbert to the screen."
I disagree with that decision, let's say.
"Heroes are bad" typical 1960s cringe.
It's about Paul, not Chani. And cetainly not Chani being an entitled Current Year brat.
@@Fridaey13txhOktober How could people not see Paul as the hero? He overcomes the plots against him and his family to rule the empire. The people he is facing are not some saints.
Personally, I never thought the follow-on books were that great. The last three are very weak.
@@chrislutz416 Yeah, and that's exactly what Herbert was trying to warn against. Heroes are human beings and human beings are bound to disappoint, make bad decisions, or have self-serving motivations. Paul overcomes the plots against his family, but at what cost? At the cost of other people's lives. At the cost of other people's freedoms. People who had nothing to do with what happened on Arrakis. The conflict was between the Emperor, the Harkonnens, and the Atriedes. Now the Freman are going to go rampaging across the rest of the Landsraad against people that weren't even involved. That's not heroic.
Chani was giving voice to the manipulation. The Bene Gesserit promulgated this Messiah myth for the self-serving purpose of controlling the Freman. Paul used this myth to avenge his father and depose the Emperor. Gurney went along with this myth because he wanted revenge against the Harkonnens. The Fremen used Paul to gain power for themselves. All this is at the cost of other people's lives. Why should some random at the other end of the Imperium suffer an attack from the Fremen over this? No one is heroic in the Dune series.
The 1984 version made Paul a hero. It wasn't until I read the whole series that I realized that the movie struck the wrong tone for what Herbert was trying to get at. I think the sinister undertone of that scene when Paul went full Messiah in the Villeneuve version got it exactly right. Chani was trying to warn people that they were being manipulated. And like most people who try to ring the alarm, she got shut down by folks who have another agenda.
How many stand ins for hammers and sickles does one need to see in a movie to reject it?
Yes. This is what I was trying to explain to my friends about why I didn't like Dune 2 as much as I would have, is this portrayal of Chani as this one dimensional brat vs a complex character who truly loved Paul but also understood the political realities of what he was becoming as a leader for the Freman and beyond. Also that they made Alia a speaking fetus vs the creepy knowing child she was is another issue. I felt like they tried to play off her weirdness to Freman by making Lady Jessica look crazy. And when the Reverend Mother Mohiam blurts out "Abomination" after Paul shuts her down, it doesn't make sense being directed at Paul.
He's trying to rewrite the books to "make them better". The absolute sanctimony thinking he can do a better job than the original and make it "more modern" is extremely revolting. These movies are terrible bastardizations, and in a couple of years, everyone will be shitting on them.
This. I find it absolutely disgusting when they do this.
Jackson omitted a few parts, but he did his best to adapt the books, not yo change characters, thinking he's better than Tolkien!
This era lacks reveration for what came before.
@@denkerbosu3551 And far too many "creatives" in hollywood suffer from the dunning-kruger effect.
About the only "make it better" thing I would agree with was in the 1984 Dune. The Navigators would fold space to move the Highliners across the galaxy.
In the original books they literally moved faster than the speed of light, which is a hard pill to swallow. Folding space makes more sense, scientifically.
I can't recall any other examples of changes to the original story that improved things in any way.
Peter Jackson about Lord of the Rings: "We made a promise to ourselves at the beginning of the process that we weren't going to put any of our own politics, our own messages or our own themes into these movies. What we were trying to do was to analyze what was important to Tolkien and to try to honor that. In a way, we were trying to make these films for him, not for ourselves".
Villeneuve about Dune: "Yeah, I totally fixed Frank Herbert's ending and fixed the moment he was regretting about. I also gutted most of the characters to fit my narrative and my politics".
@@OverLorD768 It's not his politics. Every movie that gets greenlit, produced and distributed are all done by the same group. It's their politics. The Amish?
Also I would point out that Revenant Mother said they needed to "wipe out the Atreides line", which is the most retarded dialogue in the movie. Not even going to the lore, they would
never wipe out a whole genetic line with that much potential. What comes to the marriage, Paul and Chani were married by Fremen customs (water rings) that would have meant it all to Chani
she wouldnt have cared less about "politics" of the empire. I am really scared that Messiah after the ending. I was thinking that unless he totally changes the story, ofc they will be together
but thats again unnecessary screen time.
I refuse to watch sequels. The books are unimpeachable, and the syfy series is even more glowing today than ever.
I was surprised by that line too...but on further thought, I wouldn't put it past them to do something like that. Especially if they thought it would derail their ultimate goal. Bene Gesserit are nothing if not pragmatic and controlling. In the book and in the 1984 movie, they made zero attempt to stop the Emperor from trying to destroy House Atriedes even though they knew that was the plan. Either they felt it benefited what they were doing, or they had what they needed from the Atreides already. In the following books, the Atreides line gives the Bene Gesserit and the whole Imperium plenty of grief in the future, so it's not like that calculation was off base.
As for Chani and Paul being married...they didn't even get to that in either movie. In the book, they had married for a few years and had a child together. In both movies, timeline between the destruction of House Atreides and the Battle of Arakkeen was compressed to about a year or so? And they never mentioned the marriage or the life and death of their son Leto. So Chani wouldn't have had that time to build up enough trust in Paul to know that his marriage to Irulan was strictly political. They also didn't touch on the marriage proposal with Irulan in the 1984 version, so there was nothing for Chani to react to. In any case, the 2024 ending can't be more egregious than the 1984 ending with RAIN coming from the sky on Arrakis? Really.
@@nicolettetallmadge3254 No it doesnt make any sense since if bloodline is so close to the Kwisatz Haderach. Easy fix for that would have been the "house needed to be destroyed", they would have always kept the bloodline, as they do the bloodline essential. Destroying bloodline would mean killing Paul too, but then again first movie they want him, they want them alive.
Rain was bad meme, but there were no movies planned to continue the story. Now Messiah is the shortest book and 12y time jump so are we going to waste time on Paul getting Chani back, but he sees the future. She dies eventually. I think its the modern Hollywood fucking up things, because you know "concubine" and must have heir, which in their minds makes women just cattle. I honestly think Denis is going to write his own version since he isnt going to do Children of Dune and I think I and many will end up hating the last film like GoT last seasons fucked up the whole series, but time will tell.
Idc the books were good as books but the movies are a great adaptation for a visual medium. I am not so anal about specifics unless it disrespects a character just out of nowhere. Chani was fine in the context of the story in the movies. More than just the story, this movie was a cinematic experience, something that wasn't done in the 1984 version.
@@carontorliak2760Its fair other people love other media and it is a great cinematic experience I am just afraid if the third movie separates from the story too much, usually that doesnt work well. Have you seen the Spicediver fan cut on youtube? also Mini-series?
Denis Villeneuve is the one thing I fear most for the future of movies: a talented film maker willing to compromise artistic integrity for the opportunity to complete his projects. With hacks like JJ Abrams, DEI inserted messaging stands out like a sore thumb because he was never that great a storyteller to begin with. But a skilled writer could find a way to massage the propaganda to be more palatable.
"The medium is the massage." ~Marshall McLuhan
I agree with you and I commend you for not just giving a glowing review like everyone else seems to be. I thought Dune 1 was okay but diminished Paul. I'm afraid Part Two will do the same. I also prefer Lynch and Sci-fi versions so far.
Chani slapping Paul was embarrassing.
Why are people blaming the actress for this instead of the actual screenwriters, Denis Villeneuve and Jon Spaihts? Zendaya doesn't write, they do, do people just not wanna admit they hated a writing choice from Denis and Jon?
You'd be surprised on how much pull big name actors have on changing scripts and stories.
@@erikuu96 If Mark Hamill couldn't change Luke in TLJ, I doubt Zendaya had much pull here.
They hate her because she is black, they can't stand Hollywood is pushing a black girl as a their new super star. Hollywood always pushed stars, but somehow is a problem with her, "woooke" agenda.
@@billybarnett9518 Mark Hamill was an evil white man (with contractual obligations).
Fair. It's not Zendaya's fault that they wanted Zendaya to play the same character she plays in almost every role she's cast in.
Spot on. Chani's slow-motion dream sequences seem to have stolen the time in the first movie that should have been dedicated to the Guild Navigator scene with the Emperor.
I just left the movie theater, and your observations are spot on. Having read the book recently and being a fan of David Lynch’s version, I am torn on Dune 2. The movie is unquestionably epic. However, the part about the North & South seemed incompatible with any version of the story. Of course, the ending threw me. The book and Dune ’84 clearly identified it being a political marriage with the concubines (Jessica and Chani) being the true “wives”.
For one I liked the north vs south as that makes sense, not just from a religous identity standpoint but from a warfare standpoint from the Harkonnens (remember they only thought there were a few hundred in the movie). It made it all the more interesting for Paul's internal conflict as well. Secondly, Paul didn't have kids or marry Chani, rather they have known each other for maybe 8 months, at this point it would be out of character for her to accept being a concubine, though her reasonings for leaving are way deeper than just "My boyfriend chose to marry someone else."
I am a fan of the books as they were a huge part of my teenage years and finding solice in what sometimes could be a lonely time. With that, I knew the story very well. This movie should have had a statement of "movie adapted from the original story written by...." It is not Dune. It is the cereal box of dune but what it inside is not Dune. I didn't like the first Dune in 2021 and like this movie, I will be a very small voice in a world thinking it is amazing....when it isn't.
I had a coworker who's never read the book come up to me this Friday and ask about it. He was pretty dissatisfied with the movie. I went to see it at the matinee and ohh dear god, what have they done? must have been written all over my face as I left the theater.
Sci fi channel version is best
Perfect review. Just saw it myself and had the exact same reaction. You nailed it Andre. 👍
The idea of Zendaya doing hand to hand combat with the sardaukar is crazy 😂
She really stuck it to the patriarchy.
Zendaya needs to grow up and go by her real name like normal people. LOL
Her name is Zendaya Coleman but yeah, the one name only thing is pretty overdone.
What about Aquafina?
Isn't she going by her real name? And she's a Hollywood actress not a normal person. Celebs can call themselves whatever they want.
@@hamdinger7145 She just needs to go away
Zendaya IS her real name... 🤦♂️
I have a bad feeling that in Dune 3, Paul marries Irulan, but it is SHE who does not want children with HIM due to the indignity of her father's usurpation, which will discredit his supremacy, and Alia plots to take the throne as the next eligible heir until Chani suddenly returns, and only because she's had Paul's twins and can no longer raise them outside the safety of their father, and the future God Emperor will be Paul's daughter Ghanima instead of his son Leto II.
All of these stark changes just to give these women "agency" apart from Paul, as we cannot have a story where the women harm and plot against each other, like the canon events of Irulan spiking Chani's food with contraceptives so SHE can try to have Paul's heirs, Alia going crazy from her possessed consciousness and trying to kill her own niece (and nephew) for power before her sacrificial suicide in a moment of lucidity, and Ghanima mindwiping herself to protect her brother Leto II. smfh
I'm feeling the same. The problem with all these filmmakers trying to "improve" upon original works is that they are putting stuff in there that was never in the original source material, and that will start clashing with the other lore-specific events further down the road. We've seen that happening with MULTIPLE franchises driving themselves into corners they can't really get out of - Marvel did it, Star Wars did it and Rings of Power COMPLETELY rewrote everything (and have the problem of having nowhere to go because the showrunners didn't ACTUALLY know anything about the source and couldn't write anything that felt like it could exist alongside the original stories).
We'll gonna have the vision from the first movie, about Chani killing Paul with the knife she gave him, coming true, mark my word.
I think you're spot on but even in the book, Paul makes it clear to Chani that he's going to marry the emperors daughter but isn't going to so much as touch her. And it's going to be their kids who rule. Movie Paul just says something like 'I'll love you as long as I breathe', kills Feyd Rautha, and says he's marrying the emperors daughter without any explanation. Then decides the Fremen, a desert people, are going to war in starships without any kind of training for that type of war whatsoever. So yes Chani should know better than to be so entitled, but they make Paul look like an arrogant bastard at the same time.
I think it’s a symptom of DV rushing the central portion of the movie. In the book it takes 4-5 years for Paul to get to the point that he draws the Emperor to Dune. The movie did it in less than 6 months. This means we have no Alia, no systematic destruction on the Harkonnen operations, along with none of their infighting and politicking. More importantly, there is no relationship built between Paul and Chani or Jessica and Chani. She never gets to learn how Imperial politics work from Jessica, so she is never prepared for Paul having to make an arranged marriage. She just throws a hissy fit, like the teenager she still is, rather than being the adult Fremen she should be.