Interfaith Dialogue: Christian & Hare Krishna (ISKCON) | Theology Unleashed
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- This dialogue originally occurred on the Theology Unleashed channel (6/16/23): www.youtube.co...
There is a big difference between how Vedantic and Abrahamic traditions conceive of the process and mechanics of salvation. One way the difference can be summarized, is to say that Christian notions tend to talk about something being paid off or amended for, while Vedantic ideas talk about our hearts become clean and out love being directed towards God. These 2 scholars will explore the differences and perhaps pushback on the reasoning for each view.
"Jimmy was born in Texas and grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant pastor or seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith. Eventually, he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, “A Triumph and a Tragedy,” is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on “Catholic Answers Live.”"
Dr. Howard Resnick, also known as Hridayananda Das Goswami, has been a spiritual leader in a world-wide bhakti-yoga community for over fifty years. He holds a PhD in Sanskrit and Indian Studies from Harvard, has published many academic books and articles, including several publications with Harvard University, and has lectured around the world on the philosophies of the sacred traditions of India. He has also established bhakti-yoga communities in many countries
Hi Jimmy I'm a junior Benedictine monk and your explanation of sacrifice was SO CLEAR and I finally have that deeper understanding of the cross I was really longing to get. It is one of those insights that will stick with me. Praise God! God bless also your brain which you mentioned could have been lobotomized. Thank you for sharing some stories about your suffering a while back... That Made me an even bigger fan of yours. Prayers are coming your way and I am praying also for your wife. Thanks for all you do
Thank you so much, Brother! God bless you!
Very civilized conversation between religions. This unification of religions and common ground is so needed in todays society. Enjoyed it.
Using Purgatory to exemplify God's generosity and patience with us after death was a masterful (and accurate!) move and way to bridge the gap with Resnick on reincarnation (I was thinking more along the lines of God's promise of sufficient grace in this life). Though I think you could have emphasized God's generosity and patience in the fact/experience of Purgatory, not just demonstrated their functional equivalence. Gotta mirror the emotional/moral appeal too. Minor quibble, of course. Very well done. You later picked up on his fondness for parental analogies to help explain the Passion; another good and accurate move.
Dear Jimmy Akin, as a Catholic i was so thankful for this most wonderful and respectful conversation with Dr. Howard Resnick (Hridayananda Das Goswami). Finally a intellectual conversation (and not a debate)!
Part of the complexity and perhaps complications between the two forms of religion is in their histories. The Vedic tradition on which the idea of Hare Khrishna is based is as mentioned in the clip, very old. India’s history goes back thousands of years much further than Christianity or Judaism on which Christianity is initially based. The other element is that of the notion of “incarnation of God” in human form and some how intervening in human history. These ideas are expressed in both Vedic tradition and in Christianity but in different ways and with different concepts and different established understandings. I would classify Hare Khrishna as a “denomination” sort of within the expression of the Vedic tradition of which most westerners refer to as Hinduism. Also, it is important to point out that Hare Khrishna as we know it today was mostly formed by its founder, the Swami A.C. Baktivedanda Prabhupada. It is primarily his vision and teachings that have pushed this idea of Khrishna into existence. Unfortunately, the authoritative leadership within his organization has not been able to achieve the level or depth of vision and commitment that the Swami had. I think perhaps in the near future, scholars and historians will agree that the Swami was unique and that few if any will be able to live up to or achieve what he did at the later stage of his life. The Swami did try very hard to draw parallels between Christianity and his understanding of the Vedic texts. But I think his vision and interpretation of such was singularly his own. And, this might be why the Hare Khrishna movement has become lackluster. In terms of Christianity, the history elements are seemingly easier to trace. Whereas with Khrishna as a living human being on earth, this seems to be more difficult. And as I see it more of a metaphor and symbol than an actual historical person. Anyway, this is what I’ve gathered about comparing the two religions.
Great discussion. Respectful and they listened to each other.
Only original books no changes. Authorized only. All glories to Srila prabupada!
Great discussion!
I love hearing civil discussions between intelligent people. I learned a lot.
I just found this podcast and absolutely loved how the host used logic to address each query. I immediately hit the subscribe button. And I love that their topics are far and wide. 😄
Thanks Jimmy for the great discussion. It was a great pleasure to be part of that discussion. I really appreciate the amount of effort you invested in understanding our theology and looking for genuine points of agreement.
Thanks, Arjuna! I try to do my homework and give a sympathetic reading to others' viewpoints! 😊
I enjoyed listening to this intelligent and respectful discussion; a rare event these days. Thank you Jimmy and Dr. Resnick.
Interesting. At 61 the more I learn about other religions the more I believe in Jesus Christ. One Mantra in English one seeks to be an instrument of God. It reminded me of St Francis prayer. Obviously the concept of reincarnation falls flat. I notice they use prayer beads as do Muslims. Jimmy could you expound upon the history of prayer beads in the future. Thanks again. Always interesting.
Muslims, Catholics, some Buddhists, and some Hindus use pray beads, I believe. As a Protestant...I don't get it, lol.
@@ramastarchild6804 I would say at its most basic level prayer beads are a way to connect with something physical and attach a spiritual component. This can be through pattern recognition, counting, or just a stimulus for touch. It wouldn't be so different from teaching a child math through writing versus using counting blocks.
"I am born in the state that I deserve" What would they say happens in the first iteration? What state are we born in when we are first born, in a perfect state, if not in a perfect state then why did we deserve anything other than a perfect state?
God, Krishna is the only purely perfect person in this imperfect world.
In the first iteration we already existed eternally in the spiritual world. A rough analogue to this would be the fall of the angels. We chose in our "pre-existent" state to leave God's fullness and enter into the world of matter to enjoy selfishly.
Great discussion! I’ve learned a lot, like don’t you the terms “Hare Krishna” or “washed in the blood of the lamb” with newbies!
Dr. Howard started off a bit rough. I found his body language a bit dismissive and demeaning. Thanks to Jimmy, this evolved into one of the most interesting exchanges I’ve ever listened to… Excellent.
I love these ones that are more dialogues than debates. I learned a lot. I especially appreciated Jimmy Akin's great questions that helped shed a lot of light. I also like the approach of looking for the things we agree about.
Jimmy always enthralls me. Glory to God
Something seems off to me here- if someone is born into this tradition that is one thing but to freely choose to follow this path as a westerner means something different. In the late sixties people caught up in the counterculture often chose Hare Krishna to avoid totally blowing their minds out with hallucinogenics for example. Try and read some accounts of people who fled from this movement, they are online and you can weigh and judge for yourself . To choose this path freely when you were born into the-rich Judeo Christian tradition where there are endless spiritual/intellectual treasures seems amiss to me. You would not stand out though you would be one of a humble flock in Christianity at least. That doesn’t appeal to a lot of people. That’s my two cents.
So what you mean is some people adopt the Hare Krishna religion to feel different or stand out as you put it? To me, it seems there is nothing HK offers that Catholicism doesn't apart from the dogma of karma/reincarnation. I've noticed that Indian Christians don't change their names, dresses, or language when they convert to Christianity however ISKCON converts seem to adopt the cultural aspects as well (like cosplaying) which brings me to think a large part of its appeal is still orientalism which makes sense why it has been successful in the Anglosphere as most are far removed from the culture of their ancestors.
Regarding being born into a sinful state, there seems to be something special about not just being good, but the extra good that comes from overcoming evil to be good, and God wills this extra good for us. For example: "I tell you, in the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance." and "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
As catholic catechumen who was once part of a vaishnava group for a while during my journey to Truth, it was so intellectually satisfying seeing a Catholic/Hare Krishna dialogue. I tried looking up for videos like this one for a long time
Me too, can you point me to other intelligent discussions like this. In ISKCON a long time, still chant, but always went to Catholic Church to pray as well, light candles etc..Now I need my Guru Jesus Christ 🙏🙏
It seems most of the other person's problems are more emotional than philosophical. Praying this conversation can break through for his conversion. 🙏
Man this sure beats Christians quoting Bible verses about "blue God bad". Thank you both for this insightful and respectful dialogue.
More interfaith discussions please! Would love to hear discussion about Paramahansa Yogananda who put Christ above all and caused controversy amongst followers of Yoga.
A master class of interfaith dialogue. What a blessing. Thank you!
Fascinating dialogue.
Amazing debate
I love that you managed to work in inflation and civilizational/moral progress (due to Christianity) into the discussion. Though we are steadily devolving closer to a pre-Christian state of barbarism, and one might say that the modern barbarism is in fact worse than the ancient pagan kind. People like Justin Martyr and GK Chesterton clearly appreciated aspects of the pagan worldview that they could not in modern atheism/agnosticism/nihilism. Modern heresies seem worse than paganism on principle, but in terms of actual events and behavior we are probably still on a higher moral level than the ancient world, even with the atrocities of the 20th century (genocide, fascism, communism, abortion, porn, etc.).
Keep in mind the effect technology has in the hands of a barbarian.
In the ancient world a freak with a spear and sword could only take on so many similarly armed people. They would have to have incredible prowess to mass murder people on a killing spree.
Today the most un-athletic moron can pick up a gun and shoot dozens of unarmed people.
Jimmy Atkins.. boy. Shocking how intelligent, and wise he is. Truly a gift to humanity. Praise God for spiritual gifts.
How is soul eternity different than God existing eternally? If souls and God both exist the same type of eternally than God and souls are one. Then this is different from Christianity.
Is there any godly references that Rama, Krishna claimed that they were avatars of Vishnu ?
Yes, plenty in Bhagavad Gita.
"Iam the self seated in the hearts of all beings, Iam the beginning, middle and the end of all things"
"Time Iam destroyer of worlds"
Hows that a reference to them being visnus avatars like the question says
Srumad bhagavatam mentions that krsnas tu bhagavan svayama. That he is the origin of all including his expansions. His ability to taste the highest bliss in an unrestricted and carefree manner is in krsnas as he tastes the highest form of loving sacrifice by his devotees. The other forms of krsnas such as visnu create the world, accept devotees in different relationships
lovely discussion, both of them respects each other
Good work Jimmy!
I'll take purgatory any day of the week...it sure beats hell! 😉
there is no eternal hell, its disproportionate and unfair...
both eternal hell and purgatory
Quite nice conversation and the explanations as they were by both guys. Appreciate the reference to Benedict, who adored the will of God for universal salvation. AC P said to preach truth like Jesus, and that Jesus coming is welcomed. There's surely not enough comment space to share my fuller thoughts on these matters. Yet, I'll offer this, God's distinct personage is eternally lovingly wise in compassion and the design of all creation, such that everyone made in his image, with the wills to love faith hope, to process be free and to live, may likewise, by his goodness be drawn and led to repentance into all truth, who is Jesus, the knowledge of him filling the universe and the way unto our Father, so that God may be all in all and all in love, one and still distinct. Every mouth will freely from the heart and with the Spirit confess in praise unto salvation that Jesus is Lord, each in their season, time and chance, the just and unjust, as his mercy is new every morning enduring all things and always and does not put off forever. He was commanding over the currents of the deep and walked on water he calmed with a word, changing water to wine and moving the hearts of kings like rivers. Who will not be moved to change by He who will not return voided, the savior of the world in whom is reconciliation. We were subjected to futility by the will of he whose hope is himself for us. This l too learned in practice of Hindu and so believe as Xian. Krishna says he is Kamdhenu, and scripture says that the cattle of a thousand hills are God's, wherever they be, all being in God most high. By cosmological design all things work together serving his unchanging plan, even the opposing spirit, so that God will not fail himself. All will be well. That's just a few bits l consider, any debatable, a little pithy, my apology. Ty for this show!
I would give anything to see Howard's thought bubbles around the 1:05 - 1:08 mark. ANYTHING!
Amazing Jimmy, as usual. But, at 1:22:59 I wish he added the formula "those who through no fault of their own...."
If you include a little deeper understanding, Reincarnation would be a punishment and not a reward from "god"😮
Wow, how long has it been since you used that theme?
Quite a while! But I'm bringing it back. 😊
This is what I've been waiting for for years! Thank you so much! Really enjoyed this. Just a slight correction. ISKCON...with a 'c' Interntional Society for Krishna Consciousness. Thank you, again :)
Thanks! Fixed!
Inspiring to see your exchange with Howard
How dose karma make it easy to understand the world? I think it complicates things by assigning the deserved label to suffering and injustice. I think the Christian world view is better in the sense we accept that all of us are born into a fallen state which we don't deserve because it's not our fault it's our nature we inherited from Adam. There no concept of deserving in Christianity however, we are all still suffering the consequences and God allows us means to be better than that. I think this is the fundamental difference between the two faiths.
We suffer the consequences of someone doing something wrong, the only problem here is that that someone had no knowledge of good and evil, per the bible itself. So someone with no knowledge of good and evil does something wrong and we pay for it. My reading is that your god uses Adam as a scapegoat for his own incompetence.
@@christophercano4809 What does "Knowing" mean for God? It means the ability to establish reality itself, not like human knowing which is limited by nature. This is why satan tempts Eve to think she can become like God, all-knowing. Therefore the "knowledge of good and evil" here means the ability to decide what is good and evil which is a privilege that only belongs to God, humans are supposed to trust God and his commands as their source of morals, which is how they "know" eating from the tree was wrong in the first place.
The tree in the garden symbolizes limits on human freedom, he is allowed to eat from every tree except the one. He is allowed every freedom including disobeying God and in the process attempting to be like God, except he can't and his disobedience has consequences. It's the disobedience that led to the fall. (1/2)
@@christophercano4809What we gain from eating the fruit is not good, it's a burden, after eating the fruit Adam and Eve in some sense gain the ability to dictate to themselves good and evil but also this is prone to self-deception and pride because they have taken out God from the equation. (2/2)
@@LuzianJ "No knowledge of good and evil" means no awareness of good and evil. So they had no awareness of good and evil, and when they do something bad without knowing, a chain of generational sin is triggered. So I question, well, had you [god] given them knowledge of good and evil, then maybe they would've known that what they did was bad. So again, I can't help but interpret it as god scapegoating someone because of his incompetence.
@@christophercano4809 Why are you imposing on me your own interpretation of the Bible? What is your source for concluding your definition of the tree is correct and mine is wrong? You can disagree with me but we're not Sola Scriptura here, I don't believe you have any authority to correctly interpret the scriptures..
This was super interesting 👍
At about 1:18 ish J. Akin speaks of evolution. How do you reconcile the creation stories and timeline in the BIBLE with your belief in evolution?
Symbolism
Oil and water don't mix.
This question isn't new by any means. The Church Fathers wrote on this though not extensively but It's well attested in thier writings that part of Genesis is poetic. The ages of prophets is symbolic to show their superiority. The Catholic monks had made significant contributions to the Evolution theory. This isn't a problem for Catholicism at least .
I don't understand what the point of this interview was. Is Jimmy trying to convert this man?
I think it is a ‘compare and contrast’ thing for the sake of learning. A lot of the time when someone in a faith tradition attempts to promote their faith they accidentally characterize other faiths inaccurately. These dialogues prevent that from happening and allow experts from their faiths to speak about what they actually know from experience. I can read as many books as I want about ISKON, but I will never have experiential knowledge of the group because I am a Catholic Christian. Hope this helps!
@@aidanlisney5546 Yes, Aidan is correct. This was about dialogue and learning rather than an appeal for conversion (either me appealing for his conversion or his appealing for mine). That being said, I always try to share the Christian message in a way that will clear away barriers for those who hear it in hopes that they may embrace it at some point in the future.
Great video
🐸🐕🐧
As a Vaishnava, I thank you Mr. Akin for this beautiful conversation. Your questions, comments and emphasis on commonalities were meaningful. May the Lord bless you!
Wow great job Jimmy! They mentioned Michael Huemer at the end. Do you have any opinions on his phenomenal conservatism approach to epistemology? I think I remember you saying somewhere that you're a coherentist
I feel I'm a serious person and thus I don't see any problem using Hare Kṛṣṇa to identify the tradition of Mahaprabhu. From all this man's indications he wants to clue modern people in, by "updating" or expressing things in an easily understandable way, and so why squabble right off the bat with using the most notable identification of the current Vaisnava movement? Wow, what a first impression.
Since Sri Kṛṣṇa Caitanya wanted His name to be chanted in every town and village on earth, what a better name for His footsoldiers than Hare Kṛṣṇa's! But here is a PhD so called exclusive scholar who wants to limit the movement of the Holy name (or at least confine it) to his term. This seems a bit absurd to open the dialogue, so I simply didn't listen to any more of this video.
It seems to me that the core philosophical disagreement is "is it just we should suffer exclusively from our own choices, or should we suffer from the choices of others also?".
I believe that since God wants us to love Him, he wants our choices to have an effect on the other. So if our choice to love God is free and effective, our choice to love our neighbor, or our descendants, would fittingly be free and effective, so we suffer from both our choices and a lack the free and effective love of someone else towards us.
So a question I'd ask Dr. Resnik would be "since God doesn't deserve to recieve the offense from us of our missed cooperation, why would He suffer the bad choices of someone else purely because of that someone else's choices, but the same isn't true for us?"