What is your favorite symbolism in Final Fantasy VII? Subscribe here and Follow me on twitch.tv/philiphartshorn Join my discord to help me choose my next video: discord.gg/J85mKhG Watch my film work here: ua-cam.com/video/FQg5b6bagGs/v-deo.html Follow my Twitter: twitter.com/philipharts
Absolutely loved this! I love Greek and Norse Mythology and love even more that I came away from this learning more! Love the observations and the theories as well! M.J. Gallagher, I’m very interested in reading some of your work, your passion for the subject matter is very evident and I’m curious to see more! Phil, you are one of the most positive and excited final fantasy fans I have found online and your excitement for what has come and what may come for this trilogy is so infectious. Keep up the great work both of you!
Thanks for the great conversation and all the new thoughts! I'm truly hoping for a Sephiroth title track for part 3, but more of an instrumental track, maybe with a choir (no cheesy musical track please....). Maybe a very emotional Cello track, because to me the Cello is his voice in an instrumental form. When he says "Wait for me, I'm coming" during the Nibelheim incident and the Cello plays, for me, this cello is his inner sorrow crying out loudly and pleadingly.
I am so here for this FF7 deep dive. So much so that I watched this on twitch and now I'm back again lol 🤪🤪 I guess it's because I feel the same way as MJ: the original FF7 had a bigger impact on my life than any other media or creative work, and FF7 Rebirth was the best experience I've had with any media ever. How can I quit you when you just keep giving me more?? (I'm talking about the game and you, too, Phil)
I'm finally just getting to this! Gonna watch this all afternoon. The wing symbolism excites me because we have our eyes on white and black, but whenever the party talks about anything with feathers it's always about Cloud and chocobos. To me this is an indication of how natural Cloud is, regardless of what horrors he's gone through. When it comes to symbolism, I've had a lot of my focus on Tifa and Scarlet. There is a way they can mirror this arch-nemesis relationship with Cloud and Sephiroth's. While Sephiroth tries to rob Cloud of who he is through demons of the past, Scarlet could try the same thing for Tifa with demons of the future. All while keeping the story set to proceed into AC and DoC without changing the arcs! But right now I'd rather hear what you and Gallagher have to say. It's going to be a fun afternoon! Wish I got to this sooner!
Have you guys looked into the meaning behind the Ever Crisis Sephiroth backstory? They recently released a chapter hinting that the edge of creation Sephiroth isn't as evil as we all think
It's interesting how m.j. mentions how nojima was writing trogen war stuff because in kingdom hearts: birth by sleep, they put zack in the world of Hercules. I just find that really interesting.
There are lots of ties to eastern thought too, especially duality in Hinduism and Taoism. Yin/Yang, shiva/shakti and the balance between it all. The whispers being the best symbol of that, like the dark and light side of the force in Star Wars terms. There is also I sort of known drama playing out with aerith and Seth being self aware of the plot which is like maya and in Hinduism. Jenova/seth have obvious puppet master vibes which is prevalent in depicting lucifer. Anyway. Great conversation and lots of interesting insight
In Rebirth Gilgamesh does wield a Buster Sword & Masamune during the “Rulers of the Outer Worlds” fight. Might not count for the points being made as it is a simulation.
Final Fantasy has a wide range of mythological figures and pop culture figures. Sephiroth's is an all in one villain though. His speech is slow and polite like Hannibal Lecture, His unpredictable teleport like attacks and his slasher vibe is as frightening as Jason. Also, he has the same attachment to his dead mother that blindly justifies his hatred. His theme has a Damien like operatic unholy chorus that tells you the end is near. I could mention the villain from Apocolypse now but that would be reaching. What really fascinates me is his Final Form "Safer Sephiroth". I always wondered "Why Safer" that's not cool. Then I looked it up. It relates to the Book of Numerations. He is the book and his clones are the pages he turns in this god form. My theory for the one Wing is less Mythology related and more of an observation. For an angel to become human it must cut off it's (both) it's wings. But if it only has one it's kinda Divine and mortal. One foot in the Lifestream and one on earth. For Jenova spawn it kinda interrupts the idea of the cycle if more infected are doing it. Safer Sephiroth has 6 Angelic Wings and one Black for that perfect NUMBER 7... and so far their are 6, count them 6 Stamp Dogs which mean 6 timelines so far. Again that biblically perfect number. It is the ultimate cycle clog. As for Loveless. Personal theory. About the 3 figures. These themes/emotions are communicated in the play: Act 2, Feelings of being Trapped, Act 3, Anger and Esape, Act 4, Understanding of pain, Act 5, A promise of reunion. To me it sounds like a counseling session. Lost souls would need this elaborate story repeated to themselves daily like inmate in an asylum. Crisis Core heavily hints that there is more to this as Genesis is actually healed. My theory is that this is not a play but an ancient Cetra prayer designed to excorcise spirits that can't return to the lifestream through storied therapy. Also why the Cetra bothered communing with the GI. Finding a way for the listener to stop being angery and know that they are loved enough to return. Some people can't or won't be saved though. But that may have been how Jenova was actually pacified until Shinra and Hojo defiled the body imitating a Cetra at the time of death. Like the creator of Queen Blood some jerk found some ancient text and decided to make a buck off of it by turning it into the play Loveless. It should have been called "For the Loveless" Whew, end of rant. Love your channel.
I really like the stamce that mj has about sephiroth being a singularity version of himself its the only way for it to make sense in my mind as a way to fuck with the whispers he definitely has a sense as to whats happened in the past and needed fate destroyed for his purposes.
Isnt the Masamune a nodachi? And here in Japan, they teach us that these swords were used as Samurai who were on horses, to chop down horses. Do you think that has something to do with the Trojan Horse? Im thinking of how that is parallel to Genesis / The Oddysey and whatnot. Maybe the Trojans are Wutai?
I haven't finished but it looks like the subject of the Masamune is done so I'll just spout what I know about legendary Japanese swords. On the one hand there is Masamune himself who was a highly esteemed blacksmith of, I think, roundabout the 13th century. But I'm not sure how well that lends itself to a recognizable origin story for our Masamune. I think the guy himself is more famous than his swords these days. I'll have to look up the details. Then there is what's probably the most famous sword in Japanese mythology, the Kusanagi. Though that usually comes in a set of three, together with a mirror and a jewel. It's obtained from the body of an eight-headed snake which I can easily see being represented by some sort of Wutai monster. It's also noteworthy that the three treasures are supposed to be proof of the devine ancestry of the Japanese imperial family, so that sort of ties in with Sephiroth's perceived claim to rule AND/OR this idea you mentioned that the Masamune might stem from the Cetra. It's pure speculation at this point, of course, but it's fun, so there you go.
I can't remember if it has been mentioned but I just realized there is a lot of symbolism around the rainbow effect. The rainbow for the Japanese is a bridge between worlds. In greek mythology, it's also a path for a messenger of the gods, a winged lady called... Iris ! We can also see it as a link between the clouds/Cloud and the earth/Earisu. And also between dreams and reality... The empty materia in the end reflects only mirroring clouds, no earth. This is incredible storytelling. And you know when a rainbow appears... After the rain. Here is my nutcracked theory. I am betting that when Cloud will shed tears for Aerith, his fond memories of her and Aerith's love from the lifestream, will, as the sun reappearing (he says in another game that she is his light), fullfill the materia with rainbow colors. It will be a materia of true reunion of the worlds, reintegration of all parts where they belong (as dreams, memories or real facts) and not annihilation of them. And the true reunion will be a re-creation of reality, not exactly like it was before, because choices matters, destiny is a kind of illusion, a defense mechanism of the planet born of fear, anger, sadness. The planet needs acceptance and hope like Cloud. Change, impermanence is the real deal (this is what is really inevitable). This story is ALL ABOUT trauma and severance. Severance of Cloud, of the lifestream itself after so much wounds. The enemies themselves are cut from the whole, willingly or not, fighting against everything that is not them. A happy ending will see a new world/reality born of the many. So... Are you ready for FF7- Re-creation ? 😂😅 (this game is driving me insane with all its layers of symbolism) 😂😂😂
So much to process ! Cloud has eaten the candies in the dreamworld and you know what happens when you eat fruits from the afterlife in mythology... You can't leave. So now, even if Aerith has sent him back, he is half in the lifestream still. He too lives in this dreamworld made of (bitter) regrets. That didn't happen in OG... I can't wait to see where they are going with this.
How about Sephiroths head on a swivel in ....was it FF10? Im wondering if Jenova rejects him, maybe Lucretia has to murk her son once and for all. She was the one with the mothers love who essentially gave him the eternal life. She did the same thing to Vincent. I feel like...either Lucretia or Rosen will lob his head off eventually.
![[FULL] RETROSPECTIVE : Final Fantasy Tactics](/img/n.gif)
What is your favorite symbolism in Final Fantasy VII? Subscribe here and Follow me on twitch.tv/philiphartshorn
Join my discord to help me choose my next video: discord.gg/J85mKhG
Watch my film work here: ua-cam.com/video/FQg5b6bagGs/v-deo.html
Follow my Twitter: twitter.com/philipharts
I really loved being part of this. Thanks so much again for having me on.
My pleasure my friend! Discussing mythology is one of my favorite things to do.
I cannot believe these videos exist they are EXACTLY what I'm looking for. Thank you!
Absolutely loved this! I love Greek and Norse Mythology and love even more that I came away from this learning more! Love the observations and the theories as well!
M.J. Gallagher, I’m very interested in reading some of your work, your passion for the subject matter is very evident and I’m curious to see more!
Phil, you are one of the most positive and excited final fantasy fans I have found online and your excitement for what has come and what may come for this trilogy is so infectious.
Keep up the great work both of you!
Thank you so much for your kind words
Comment for the algorithm!
Awesome conversation. Never would've made the connection to Achilles, but it makes thematic sense when mentioned! =)
Thanks for the great conversation and all the new thoughts!
I'm truly hoping for a Sephiroth title track for part 3, but more of an instrumental track, maybe with a choir (no cheesy musical track please....). Maybe a very emotional Cello track, because to me the Cello is his voice in an instrumental form.
When he says "Wait for me, I'm coming" during the Nibelheim incident and the Cello plays, for me, this cello is his inner sorrow crying out loudly and pleadingly.
Thank you both as always, for both your insight and time.
Great discussion.
Our please. Glad you enjoyed it!
oooooooohh putting this on my "watch later" list.
I am so here for this FF7 deep dive. So much so that I watched this on twitch and now I'm back again lol 🤪🤪 I guess it's because I feel the same way as MJ: the original FF7 had a bigger impact on my life than any other media or creative work, and FF7 Rebirth was the best experience I've had with any media ever. How can I quit you when you just keep giving me more?? (I'm talking about the game and you, too, Phil)
I'm finally just getting to this! Gonna watch this all afternoon. The wing symbolism excites me because we have our eyes on white and black, but whenever the party talks about anything with feathers it's always about Cloud and chocobos. To me this is an indication of how natural Cloud is, regardless of what horrors he's gone through.
When it comes to symbolism, I've had a lot of my focus on Tifa and Scarlet. There is a way they can mirror this arch-nemesis relationship with Cloud and Sephiroth's. While Sephiroth tries to rob Cloud of who he is through demons of the past, Scarlet could try the same thing for Tifa with demons of the future. All while keeping the story set to proceed into AC and DoC without changing the arcs!
But right now I'd rather hear what you and Gallagher have to say. It's going to be a fun afternoon! Wish I got to this sooner!
In Crisis Core, Angeal talks about how Sephiroth lost weight because he was stressed or what not.
Have you guys looked into the meaning behind the Ever Crisis Sephiroth backstory? They recently released a chapter hinting that the edge of creation Sephiroth isn't as evil as we all think
M.J is a genius. I never saw it that way. Thank you for this 💯🔥
Such a pleasure to have him on the show
Mega appreciate it!
It's interesting how m.j. mentions how nojima was writing trogen war stuff because in kingdom hearts: birth by sleep, they put zack in the world of Hercules. I just find that really interesting.
There are lots of ties to eastern thought too, especially duality in Hinduism and Taoism. Yin/Yang, shiva/shakti and the balance between it all. The whispers being the best symbol of that, like the dark and light side of the force in Star Wars terms.
There is also I sort of known drama playing out with aerith and Seth being self aware of the plot which is like maya and in Hinduism.
Jenova/seth have obvious puppet master vibes which is prevalent in depicting lucifer.
Anyway. Great conversation and lots of interesting insight
Love this content!!! Keep it up 😁😁
You guys are both scholars!! Amazing content! And it really wants me to look more into greek mythology. Absolutely genius!
Thanks so much!
My idea for the song for the last game is since we’ve had a cloud and Aerith singing about each other song they could do a duet with each other 🙂
I love the Monkey Jello perspective!
In Rebirth Gilgamesh does wield a Buster Sword & Masamune during the “Rulers of the Outer Worlds” fight.
Might not count for the points being made as it is a simulation.
Final Fantasy has a wide range of mythological figures and pop culture figures. Sephiroth's is an all in one villain though. His speech is slow and polite like Hannibal Lecture, His unpredictable teleport like attacks and his slasher vibe is as frightening as Jason. Also, he has the same attachment to his dead mother that blindly justifies his hatred. His theme has a Damien like operatic unholy chorus that tells you the end is near. I could mention the villain from Apocolypse now but that would be reaching.
What really fascinates me is his Final Form "Safer Sephiroth". I always wondered "Why Safer" that's not cool. Then I looked it up. It relates to the Book of Numerations. He is the book and his clones are the pages he turns in this god form.
My theory for the one Wing is less Mythology related and more of an observation. For an angel to become human it must cut off it's (both) it's wings. But if it only has one it's kinda Divine and mortal. One foot in the Lifestream and one on earth. For Jenova spawn it kinda interrupts the idea of the cycle if more infected are doing it. Safer Sephiroth has 6 Angelic Wings and one Black for that perfect NUMBER 7... and so far their are 6, count them 6 Stamp Dogs which mean 6 timelines so far. Again that biblically perfect number. It is the ultimate cycle clog.
As for Loveless. Personal theory. About the 3 figures. These themes/emotions are communicated in the play: Act 2, Feelings of being Trapped, Act 3, Anger and Esape, Act 4, Understanding of pain, Act 5, A promise of reunion. To me it sounds like a counseling session. Lost souls would need this elaborate story repeated to themselves daily like inmate in an asylum. Crisis Core heavily hints that there is more to this as Genesis is actually healed. My theory is that this is not a play but an ancient Cetra prayer designed to excorcise spirits that can't return to the lifestream through storied therapy. Also why the Cetra bothered communing with the GI. Finding a way for the listener to stop being angery and know that they are loved enough to return. Some people can't or won't be saved though. But that may have been how Jenova was actually pacified until Shinra and Hojo defiled the body imitating a Cetra at the time of death. Like the creator of Queen Blood some jerk found some ancient text and decided to make a buck off of it by turning it into the play Loveless. It should have been called "For the Loveless"
Whew, end of rant. Love your channel.
I really like the stamce that mj has about sephiroth being a singularity version of himself its the only way for it to make sense in my mind as a way to fuck with the whispers he definitely has a sense as to whats happened in the past and needed fate destroyed for his purposes.
Isnt the Masamune a nodachi? And here in Japan, they teach us that these swords were used as Samurai who were on horses, to chop down horses. Do you think that has something to do with the Trojan Horse? Im thinking of how that is parallel to Genesis / The Oddysey and whatnot. Maybe the Trojans are Wutai?
I haven't finished but it looks like the subject of the Masamune is done so I'll just spout what I know about legendary Japanese swords.
On the one hand there is Masamune himself who was a highly esteemed blacksmith of, I think, roundabout the 13th century. But I'm not sure how well that lends itself to a recognizable origin story for our Masamune. I think the guy himself is more famous than his swords these days. I'll have to look up the details.
Then there is what's probably the most famous sword in Japanese mythology, the Kusanagi. Though that usually comes in a set of three, together with a mirror and a jewel. It's obtained from the body of an eight-headed snake which I can easily see being represented by some sort of Wutai monster. It's also noteworthy that the three treasures are supposed to be proof of the devine ancestry of the Japanese imperial family, so that sort of ties in with Sephiroth's perceived claim to rule AND/OR this idea you mentioned that the Masamune might stem from the Cetra.
It's pure speculation at this point, of course, but it's fun, so there you go.
Speaking of the Pheonix, do you think Cloud and LIttle Cloud (The bird) have some connection to it?
I can't remember if it has been mentioned but I just realized there is a lot of symbolism around the rainbow effect. The rainbow for the Japanese is a bridge between worlds. In greek mythology, it's also a path for a messenger of the gods, a winged lady called... Iris ! We can also see it as a link between the clouds/Cloud and the earth/Earisu. And also between dreams and reality... The empty materia in the end reflects only mirroring clouds, no earth. This is incredible storytelling. And you know when a rainbow appears... After the rain. Here is my nutcracked theory. I am betting that when Cloud will shed tears for Aerith, his fond memories of her and Aerith's love from the lifestream, will, as the sun reappearing (he says in another game that she is his light), fullfill the materia with rainbow colors. It will be a materia of true reunion of the worlds, reintegration of all parts where they belong (as dreams, memories or real facts) and not annihilation of them. And the true reunion will be a re-creation of reality, not exactly like it was before, because choices matters, destiny is a kind of illusion, a defense mechanism of the planet born of fear, anger, sadness. The planet needs acceptance and hope like Cloud. Change, impermanence is the real deal (this is what is really inevitable). This story is ALL ABOUT trauma and severance. Severance of Cloud, of the lifestream itself after so much wounds. The enemies themselves are cut from the whole, willingly or not, fighting against everything that is not them. A happy ending will see a new world/reality born of the many. So... Are you ready for FF7- Re-creation ? 😂😅 (this game is driving me insane with all its layers of symbolism) 😂😂😂
So much to process ! Cloud has eaten the candies in the dreamworld and you know what happens when you eat fruits from the afterlife in mythology... You can't leave. So now, even if Aerith has sent him back, he is half in the lifestream still. He too lives in this dreamworld made of (bitter) regrets. That didn't happen in OG... I can't wait to see where they are going with this.
How about Sephiroths head on a swivel in ....was it FF10? Im wondering if Jenova rejects him, maybe Lucretia has to murk her son once and for all. She was the one with the mothers love who essentially gave him the eternal life. She did the same thing to Vincent. I feel like...either Lucretia or Rosen will lob his head off eventually.
I will finish watching this but my takeaway from the thumbnail (don’t change it!) was: Brad Pitt is Sephiroth? 🤣
YES!! Haha
So Sephiroth's Achilles heel is pretty much carbon copied onto Homelander in The Boys series