@@razenby People are generally Shocked by how bad of an Electrician I am. Lol my jokes not much better but look on bright side I always have a spark about me
MANY THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORT AND TIME YOU INVESTED IN THIS, REALLY APPRECIATED!!!! If I were you, I would try to connect it and continue your test with couple of RECONDITIONING cycles with CTEK. It would clearly show whether CTEK is of any better or not. Try this in a background yet, while you tear down NOCO 5.
@@razenby Afterwards, it might be interesting to see if you can pop the covers off of the cells and check the condition/quantity of the battery fluid. And yes, I do remember you telling me that the battery is maintenance-free so it's sealed. But my experience tells me that many of these so-called maintenance-free batteries aren't really sealed at all. They just hide the covers under a sticker or incorporate the covers into a plastic plate across the top of the battery making it seem like they are sealed when they are not.
I've actually done that with old batteries using the CTEK. I've found that the initial run or two will always shut off after 4 hours of Recon mode (the limit as stated by CTEK) but the runs afterwards will get shorter and shorter as it takes less time to reach to 15.8V. In theory, the shorter time it takes for the battery to get to 15.8V should mean that something in the battery has changed or else the time to reach 15.8V shouldn't change at all.
One thing that I've learned with the Noco g3500 is to leave the charger connected to the battery several hours after the green light stop flashing .The battery seem to take more charge .
@@razenby I believe that goes back to the Genius 2 parameteric testing you completed where the Genius 2 basically stops charging once it reaches the target voltage (bulk charging - constant current/variable voltage - rather than continue to do an absorption charge - constant voltage/variable current).
10.6 is way over discharge as far as i know lead acid batteries like to stay above 12v under that is bad for tge battery maybe charge then discharge to 12v and cycle like that?
I have an old CTEK US 7002 and I just bought a NOCO GENPRO 10x1 and I try to repair batteries with them since the sitting voltage are between 12.4 and 12.6 V. With Victron Smart Battery Sense I can see the charging graph using their app. CTEK just raises the charge voltage in recondition mode it is actually just an equalization charging. NOCO however pulse charge in repair mode and raise the charging voltage gradually for a 4-hour session. Both are supposed to be helpful in desulfation, except CTEK would terminate reconditioning too early instead of trying to keep the voltage as high as 15.9V as stated in their user manual and longer. On the charging side, CTEK seems to charge normal while NOCO might drop and raise voltages randomly at the final charging stages. My main goal is to restore sitting voltage so I haven’t touched the capacity
How effective Recondition is really depends on the type of cell. It doesn't work very well on sealed valve regulated lead acid batteries. By the time you realise that there is a problem with the battery performance is it usually too late. The chargers I have tested rarely perform according to their claimed specifications. The electronics are too cheap and the spread of tolerances causes errors in the controllers perception of what the actual battery terminal voltage is.
Hi great videos, they helped me repair my CTEK charger. Thanks. In relation to this battery you have been testing it seems to be holding up quite well under the 10A load, but you were saying it won’t start the car if you leave the lights on for 15mins. Could be it is losing its Cranking capacity rather than the AH capacity as the AH capacity seems to be holding up well for a long time. Not sure how you would test the CCA though.
15 mins might have been an exaggeration. Maybe half an hour stopped on the fast lane. Got stranded. You would never know there was an issue it always starts sprightly. The first indication that we should have acted sooner was that it wouldn't start after washing and valet he did with the radio on and the doors and boot open. Maybe 90 minutes. I am more cautious with the family's batteries now. We will test CCA. Tempted to cut the top off...
The only thing for it is to access the cells and add distilled water, one or more of the cells are likely dry that's what I did when I had the same issue I found it was an ordinary battery with a sticker over the fillers. The battery worked for another 19 months or so.
Very interesting.. I would really like to see what happens if you used the ZYX J30 12/24v 8A charger in its repair mode and then check battery capacity thereafter. I have had good success with this in terms of Cold Cranking Amps (tested with an Ancel battery tester) and specific gravity readings off a hydrometer. Unfortunately I don't have the equipment you have to measure the Amp / Hour capacity of a battery so would be interested to see what happens .
The slow discharge delivering higher capacity was to be expected but the fact that it also 'repaired' the battery more than the charger was very interesting. Doing it many times wouldn't help long term as each full discharge to 10.6V is one more cycle off the life. Perhaps after a long slow charge the charger repair mode might do something? My gut reaction is that it won't but you never know. With batteries prevention is certainly better than cure - fully recharge after a significant discharge but preferably don't let it discharge in the first place. My experience with starter batteries is that with a good alternator and regular use you can get 2 or maybe 3 times the nominal guaranteed life.
Thanks. It seems everyone has expectations and beliefs but the facts are a bit of a muddle. It is a very lucrative market and the manufacturers involved in it know that customers have low expectations. It is possible that modern batteries have been weight and cost reduced to such an extent that they are only just fit for purpose.
@@razenby Agreed.. after 30 years, as novice.. and now researched.. battery know how became somewhat of a circus coming to town,, ans now with tech, .. an ILLUSIONIST. $$$ Yup, built " fit, for purpose"
Thank you for this impressive video sequence. I like very much the precision and the deepness of your work shown on it. Being in the process of choosing a battery charger to by, the raw data collected in your experiments can be in great help. I will highly appreciate if you decide to share with us your CSV files. I think a lot of people will be glad to deep dive in the data by themself.
I'm interested in your thoughts on the requirement to charge calcium batteries at voltages upwards of 16V. Most calcium charge modes charge up to at least 15.2V or so and I notice that the Noco 5 doesn't specifically have a calcium mode. Have you compared the Noco 5 to other chargers that have a calcium mode?
The 16V figure is mentioned here and there but I have never seen it on the battery manufacturers data sheet. If you know of one then pleas me the link. As far as I can tell it seems to be a recommended periodic practice to remove oxidation from the plates. To be fully charges, Ca batteries require a higher termination voltage. (14.8V at 20 deg C). Charging in AGM mode can accomplish this. As we have demonstrated and calculated in the videos, the voltage measurement electronics of the 'smart' chargers we have tested aren't that accurate or repeatable anyway. The termination voltage for Calcium is 3% higher that standard VRLA. Some say that you should not use a calcium battery on a car not designed for calcium as the charging system is designed for it. I have found alternators on cars are very hit and miss on the maximum voltage. Start the engine and measure it when you pick up the revs to 1,500RPM. If you see 14.7 then it is about right. Lower than that then you will have to charge periodically to 14.7V to keep it tip-top.
I’ve always believed in charging and discharging any battery slowly with a low a current as is practically possible. It seems your test might bear this out. I recently bought the Noco Genius 2 to do exactly that after seeing your video on it. Maybe interesting to compare the Genius 2 and Genius 5 and see if actually slow and steady wins you capacity?
Thanks for the comment. In the 70s my dad used to say 'slow charge is good' . All we had then for cars were the flooded lead acid batteries with a top up cap for every cell. You could see the plates and you could also see white dusting of Lead sulphate disappear as the battery was charged. There seem to be half a dozen reasons why batteries lose capacity. There are dominant reasons, the nature of the beast itself, mechanical, chemical, poor quality and shitty materials. The question is what is wrong with this battery? The battery that came with my B class diesel lasted 9 Years with no trouble. The new replacement is drooping after 4. I wonder if the battery manufacturers care how long they last so long as there is no warranty claims. Consulting the 'delaing with warranty claims section in the Yaesu reseller agents handbook, there is just about NO situation where they will accept a warranty claim. Every fault except open circuit is put down to battery abuse and warranty refused. As it is impossible to prove that you didn't abuse your battery you are powerless.
@@razenby I’m pretty sure it’s like most things, they make a product to last the life of the warranty. Planned obsolescence and all that. Most likely the beginning of ‘maintenance free’ battery.. Yep I remember those caps to fill with distilled water, Lead Acid doesn’t like much of a discharged state and the lower you go hurts it more, i think an ideal would be no lower than 80% of full charge, certainly no lower than 50%. Maybe cars should have come with a small solar panel in the roof to constantly keep the battery at 100% when it’s not running, but hey they wouldn’t sell as many batteries now would they lol
@@razenby Who is the battery manufacturer, and is it in the U.K? Johnson Controls moved their battery manufacturing to Mexico, and the video's I have seen on them is that they no longer last as long as when they were made in the USA. Odyssey Batteries use 99.9 percent pure lead and are still made in the USA and designed to last 10 years, I believe they also have a manufacturing site in France for the European market.
They used to use virgin steel plates inside each battery all the manufacturers stoped using them except for Odyssey. Odyssey still uses virgin steel and they last twice as long but they are 50% higher priced also. I started using them in all my cars and boats, to me it's worth it to not have to replace my AGM battery every 24 months on the dot. Batteries are not the same as years ago. 12v Lead acid batteries last 1 year, AGM last 2 years, Odyssey lasts 4 years, LiFePo4 batteries last 5-10 years but you can't use them in a car just yet, you'll kill the battery if you charge it if it's less than 32 degrees F 0 degree Celcius outside. They now make them with internal heaters that cost $70-$100 more but you still can't use those as is in a car, their internal resistance is so low that if it's discharged and you charge it from an alternator it will accept the full amperage charge your alternator can put out and a regular alternator will burn up because they aren't meant to run at long periods at 100+ amps. New smart alternators are fixing this issue though but it will be awhile before all cars have those as standard. They also don't handle high vibration like a lead acid battery can. The future will be good though, were close.
What might be happening in cycles 10 and 11 may be similar to what I found after running a recond mode on my CTEK MXS5.0 - lower test results after running the recond mode but high results if I run a regular charge cycle again after the recond mode. I suspect that the CTEK's recond mode due to the equalization charge creates enough gas bubbles in the battery to reduce the capacity of the charge (ie the gas bubbles act like sulfate and prevent the charging process on certain parts of the plate) resulting in an incomplete charge during reconditioning. However, if the battery was left sitting overnight so that many of those bubbles can rise to the surface or get reabsorbed back into the liquid and thereby exposing areas of the cell's plates again, a normal charge cycle will finish charging those areas that had bubbles. Granted, my testing involved an uncalibrated conductance battery tester and the difference was only a few percent of the CCA, it aligns with the results of this test. While the CTEK's recond mode is more like the traditional equalization charge than the NOCO's repair mode (according to the previous videos), I suspect we might be seeing something similar. What would be interesting to see is if another repair mode cycle was done and then it was followed up with by a normal charge and then a 10A discharge, would we see a similar improvement in performance?
Interesting point. I'll try that. As I understand it the recombination of H and O generated during Hydrolysis in a VRLA battery recombine to prevent electrolyte loss. At low charge currents (~70 milliamps) the plates should not gas. Have you worked out the key failure of these charges yet? There is a prize for the first person to mention it.
@@razenby In theory, you are correct low current charging should not gas. By failures, do you mean of this particular charger or all the chargers you have tested?
Depends on the battery. Sealed Lead acid cells don't respond well to gassing. The rate of recombination of the gasses is limited. Too much current and the pressure relief valve lets the gasses out leading to loss of electrolyte.
I've had good results (9 out of 13) reviving aging or dead car AGM battery with desulfator charger such as this one so far. You are 100% correct with the lack of electrolyte part as I need to add distilled water before attempting to repair them or, most of the time, I ended up making the battery's performance worse after a complete charge both measured Ah and internal resistance wise. The main reason I only bother with car batteries is that their valves are easily removable by unscrewing them unlike deep cycle ones which often have a molded platic plate over them
At step 9 did you charge for 24hr before the test. That wasn't clear in you video when you described the steps but in you table it seemed to indicate a 24hr charge before test. If you didn't charge after repair mode then it's hard to know how the battery repair worked since the next test was the 2amp drain test. Anyway, your videos were brilliant, I appreciate the time and energy you put into this. Thanks!
Yes I did. It says that the battery should be fully charged. Successful recovery of a failing battery is an urban myth. It may of worked in the old days when batteries were open-vent flooded lead acid with substantial plates but VRLA don't respond well to (preconditioning and repair modes) . These modes should be re labelled 'risky over charging mode which is what they are.
@@razenby I think you are right-just risky overcharging for newer designs. And this is not proof of cheaper design (def does seem related), at one time you could get older batteries with 3 years total replacement and up to 8/9 years prorated. Alll I can find now in the USA is 3 year replacement for even the premium ones.
Hey I have a BMW F30 with an agm battery, about 2-4 months ago the my car battery came so low that the car shut some electronics off to conserve energy, I can still lock and unlock car with key fob but it’s still low, I just got a Noco 10amp and I tried using it, I hooked it up to the terminals in the engine bay, it charged very fast ( the bar indicators where going up every 10 minutes or so ), it was showing that it was almost fully charged which was at the green bar, every time I unlock or lock car using key fob which uses power and the bar indicators drop down to the first one, also when I took off the charger after it said it was almost fully charged but it still showed my car was still on low battery, any ideas to what might be wrong such as, a bad sulfated battery, or etc….? I know there’s something wrong because it’s going up a bar quickly, when I use power it goes back down to one bar, and the car still says it’s low on battery so it shuts down some electronics, is there something I’m doing wrong, do I need to put it in repair mode and does that mode work on agm batteries, or is it just a bad battery, I don’t have any tools to measure voltages, plz lmk ASAP, Thank You!
It should not lose charge that fast, If the battery terminals are clean and tight then it likely that you need a new battery, If you know anyone with a battery tester then you can ascertain the battery's condition.
Great videos Magic Smoke! I've just received a NOCO Genius 5. We have a 60AH Agribatt which was down to 12.37 V today which I believe is classed as 'charge as soon as possible.' Got it home on the NOCO charger, and it cycled all the way to green status in less than 3 minutes, indicating the "bulk" of the charge is done. The battery then read 12.6 V. Following NOCOs instructions I put it back on charge, and eventually after 8 hours, only the green light stayed on indicated 100% optimized. Volts then reading 13.01 V. My question does this sound normal to have the bulk of the charge done in 3 minutes flat? Is 12.37V not really that discharged? Was the extra 8 hours of charging worth it for the steady green only light? Thanks in advance!
On a healthy battery 12.37v resting voltage is about 65% charged. The key thing to note is the 'healthy battery' bit . If you fully charge the battery and leave it for a couple for days and the battery reads 12.37V then the battery is not in tip top condition. The resting voltage (24hr after charge) after charge is a good indicator of the condition of the battery. A fully charged healthy battery should have a resting voltage of 12.6V . The relationship between (terminal voltage vs current vs state of charge) is undefined for a failing / aged battery. For a weak battery, when subjected to bulk charge current, the terminal voltage rises quickly without absorbing any charge so the charger has no alternative but to switch to the next charging stage. Judge you battery after a an extensive float charge and recondition cycle. Recondition it for a week and then repeat the resting voltage test . Let's see what results you get. Please report.
@@razenby thanks for the helpful reply! Its a 60 AH leisure battery running an electric fence energizer. From new its lasted 2.5 months without a charge, until it read 12.37 V and I decided to charge. Its now reading 12.91 V after being stood overnight since I took the charger off. What volts would you reccomend taking it home for a charge again? I'm going to refit it to the energizer today. It sits in a plastic box on a field, raised off the ground with 2 bricks and bit of plyboard, and it's currently 3*C in the day and some minus 4*C expected overnights!
I think what everyone has to understand is that there is no magic mode that will fix all batteries. Ultimately, whether a desulphation or reconditioning or repair charge will restore battery performance depends on why the battery is underperforming in the first place and the severity of what ails it. Some types of ailments are simply catastrophic or irreversible, while others are more reversible depending at what stage it's at. How I'd sum it up is that these 'special modes' are far more likely to result in meaningful positive gains when used on a battery that is still performing at 80%+ of it's original specification than it is when used on a battery who's performance has decayed to a shell of it's original performance.
True but who does anything to a battery untill it starts to let you down. this battery condition wouldn't even be notice for longer had it not been for the unusual situation that it was put to.. generally batteries go bad because the plates are falling apart, nothing can reverse. Then it gets put under a bush and calcifies, and people think they can fix it
Explain that to the charger manufacturers!! They make outrageous marketing claims. Interesting theory. I am just curious why would you 'sum it up' that it works on a battery that can retain 80% of its specified charge and not on batteries that have decayed to say 70%? I would be interested in the evidence. We have 6 cars in our household with different aged batteries. I see if any of then are 80%ers and give the theory a test,
@@razenby Love your content man! You're super knowledgeable in this field. Even I with my daily drive charge my battery over night on the Noco Genuis 1 occassionally once every 2-3 months just to get rid of an sulfation to may have come about. I'll continute to do so once any of my batteries reach the 2 year mark as most warrenties start to end around this time on battery replacement.
@@dbzownz12345 Thanks. Your is a good strategy- To give an absorption/float charge periodically on a town car is the only way it will get the final 20% in. I don't know but if I had to guess, most town cars are diving around with 80% or less charge in the sulphation zone.
I just bought the Noco 5...it's cold where I live and I was having problems with the cold killing my battery. I used the NOCO 5 to fully charged the battery and then put it in repair mode. So I had a fully charge battery that went through 1 round in the repair mode. Today, 1 day later I go out to start my Jeep and after just a few seconds the battery is dead. The weather was cold overnight about -35 celcius. Do you think my battery is just shot or would that happen to a healthy battery in that temperature?
Interesting that the Noco Genius5 user manual states that the over voltage, bad battery and reverse polarity lights all flash to together when the ambient temperature is too high or too low. It the specs it is rated to work down to -20 deg. It states that normal function will resume when the ambient warms up. It doesn't say if normal function resumes in the mode you left it or it goes into standby. I'll test it.
That shouldn't happen to a health battery. According to what I've read, a new regular flooded battery that is fully charged has a freezing point of -70C or thereabouts. Since -35C is far from -70C and you just fully charged the battery (at leat according to the NOCO charger), that battery should have been OKAY unless the battery is bad or the charger is bad.
I just present the evidence and you decide. My opinion is that both the NOCO and the Genius are unfairly priced and the simplicity of what they actually do obfuscated by battery folklore rather than real world accurate measurement. Just a couple more in the series and you will know. I wouldn't buy a CTEK though.
@@razenby thank you, I was researching chargers as my vehicle has been locked up in the garden for quite sometime and I was having to drive it down the motorway every 2 weeks which is a pain in the backside, I purchased the noco genius 5 as I was watching your videos a few weeks back, used it twice now and yeah couple of hours and its fully charged. I think most people will want a charger for this reason and probably dont care about all the other features. Definitely agree, overpriced for sure paid £64.99, I felt the only 2 choices were the ctek and noco, i just wanted a simple plug and play device, no hassle, if it works for a few years I'll be happy with it.
The condition of the battery plays a huge role... You need to do these test under new battery conditions.. And yes the Noco Genius 5 or 10 can fix old batteries. But the limit seems to be around 90% of the original battery rating...Not to mention type.. As I use them for AGM batteries.. As they cost a fortune at $800.00 each. As they are Cell phone tower batteries. They decommission them every 3 years. Even though they are rated for10 years..So I want to keep them at 12.8 volts.
Why - please explain why the battery has to be new. The battery is only new the day it leaves the factory-- it is a story of steady deterioration which accelerates when the battery is used. So, you cant test under new conditions as battery chargers aren't often used on new starter batteries,. How do you know regeneration works- Have you done any quantitative testing?
@@razenby I battery is not new when it leaves the factory. As they do not transport them filled.. They get filled at the point of sale...Some Auto parts stores fill them when they arrive. Bad Idea. As they will be discharged below 90%... I have taken testers with me. To check the resting voltage on them before I buy one..As they shove the older ones to the front. So my suggestion. Buy batteries of the same type and model. Hell even the same lot number if you can..Then do your test. You will see what I mean... And I know regeneration works. As I buy AGM Cell Tower batteries at 12.5 resting voltage..After they decommissioned them every 3 years...Once I use repair mode. They end up around 12.8 to 12.9 which is what the factory says they should be at. These are not cheap batteries. The Cell Companies buy them $900.00+ ones rated for 10 years..I get them for $110.00...I asked them why they sell them after 3 years use. Answer..They test them. If they fall below 12.6 they are removed..Even though the factory warranties them for 10 years..They just auction them off...
Is there a brand of charger that has variable amperage say 2 amp 5 Amp 10 Amp that you can recommend? Noco has a set Amperage which is not good for varied sizes of battery. eg 10 AH to 150AH batteries.
You're doing great work here! I have question - is it better to have two chargers (eg. Genius 2 and Genius 5) for motorcycle and car battery (20Ah and 50Ah)? Or higher Amp one will be fine for small battery too?
Thanks. I don't know the answer to that. I am logging the charge current and terminal voltage with a CTEK at the moment so we can see what it does. Then the same thing with repair mode if it can be invoked. I also have another a battery from my Jag that the dealership told me needed replacing last week at the service so I got the old one back. I had no idea that it was iffy at all just possibly the starter didn't sound as sprightly after being parked for a couple of weeks. So battery sample size is now 2. If the motorcycle battery you have is the old wet cell type with the ability to access the electrolyte for each cell then you have more latitude as they are much more forgiving than maintenance free type. The next video will be released probably today.
@@dacomaniac Higher currents within the manufacturers recommendations are OK during the bulk charge phase (open circuit terminal voltage > 11.8V) . When the terminal voltage under charge (still charging) reaches 14.3 to 14.4V You are then in the absorption phase. Then I would advise that you need a very low charge current (~150 mA for a 50Ah battery) during the the absorption phase and cut the current when the terminal current reaches 14.4 to 14.5V . (At 25 Deg C -The terminal voltages are temperature dependent).
Well maybe the longer charging duration led to more gassing of the battery reversing some stratification which in turn reversed some sufation and increased capacity. But honestly it could also just be due to measurement error.
I heard the gassing theory many times before. The battery is a VRLA sealed maintenance free. Gas is reabsorbed due to the ambient cell pressure and the composition of the plates. If dissociation to gas happens at a rate faster than the capability to recombine into back water of the plates then it will leak the gas the electrolyte level will drop. Interested in your doubts about the measurement accuracy. Please explain your doubts about the mighty £3,000 Yokogawa WT210. The Yokogawa is a £3,000 instrument. Error is
@@razenby Well yes at some point the electrolyte level will drop but i was focusing on the gas bubbles mixing the electrolyte, removing some possibly existing acid stratification and thus maybe some more sulfation at the top of the plates, restoring some active area. Very theoretical, really. Concerning my mention of measurement error: I wasn't trying to question your expertise, I was merely trying to voice my concern when trying to deduce anything from a one time measurement of a parameter with a mere change of about 2 %. In my opinion there are just a lot of uncertainties. Was the temperature of the battery the exact same in both tests, as the chemical reaction speed relies heavily on it? Did the Yokogawa warm up for the same time for both experiments and for at least 30 mins? The Yokogawa is listed with a DC power accuracy of ±(0.3% of reading + 0.2% of range) at 23+-5°C which you're barely within at 18°C. If you had the Frequency filter turned on the accuracy is less at an additional 1% of reading. Then additionally the cutoff voltage could differ ever so slightly between tests. But honestly I'm not an expert in this field and you might very well know more about this than I do. Anyways, keep up the great work, I very enjoy the videos.
@@razenby No such thing as sealed Lead Acid.. They just cover the caps up with a sticker...I saved many a UPS battery by removing them stickers. To get at the fill caps...As damn near every one of the plates. Were exposed for lack of water.....
Do you know what causes that interference with the sound in your video? I used to hear it all the time with my speakers but now I never hear it and I could never think what caused it. WiFi? 3 or 4G signals from a mobile? I'm interested to know. Thanks for the great vid!
@@razenby No need, I don't mind. The last time I heard it, I don't think I even had a mobile so was quite a while ago. Must have been a family members.
any idea why my noco genius 5 is dead no lights what so ever. triple checked plug fuse ,and the inline fuse, till no light nothing. thats whether connected to good battery or not i believe there is another fuse inside the unit that you carn`t get to is this correct if so that nut
There is a fuse inside the unit but if it is blown it invariably means that the switching power supply has had a catastrophic failure.. I have never seen a failed NOCO unit...
I have a brand new NOCO 5x3. Two of the banks work fine on 24volt tolling batts. The third bank I use for the crank batt or a seperate fish finder batt. When I press the power button for this bank, three different led lights flicker quickly in sequence one time, then nothing. Any idea would be a great help?
Are all the backs 12 volt? Do all teh chargers behave in the same way on the fish finder bank? Can't think why it would do that if the battery voltage is above about 7 Volts.
I will check the SG at some point. I am investigating the claims of the charger manufacturers that you can buy their product instead of buying a new battery. Checking the electrolyte is a problem for the average user who has a semi sealed lead acid maintenance free battery. I have another battery from my Jaguar that has just had a new one fitted at the garage because the mechanic said it was due for replacement. I hadn't noticed anything wrong with it so that might be interesting. At the end I will cut the top of the 3 year old Halfords battery so we can see what condition the plates are in.
@@razenby i noticed that the repair mode works fine on a smaller batteries. A motorcycle battery in a repair mode was charged with 16.5-17V while 80ah battery in a repair mode is getting only 15V
@@rymek1 The old continuous current over-voltaging (overcharging) method is not recommended for maintenance free batteries but we will try it. This NOCO uses the current pulse method. Only works if you walk widdershins around the battery for 10 minutes at the end of the process.
@@razenby It would be interesting to see how much water is actually lost during a school continuous current over-voltaging method especially with these newer batteries that are sealed.
@@razenby Thanks for your response. Also, regarding line 11, did you use Noco 5 to charge the battery? It seems like you were charging closer to 1 amp vs the Noco's 5 amp rate.
i just bought a Genius 5 to charge my battery in my Audi A3. the car has been stored for 5 months. i plugged the charger in and it registered one red box flickering on/off. after 12 hours it was flickering green. i left it overnight and in the morning it was back to one red box on/off. what could have happened? there was no load on it.
Any idea what could go wrong on a noco 10 charger? ...I can't get any lights to come on, period. Not even if I hold the power button down for 10 secs. Any help? ...I can't find anything on the web anywhere.
@@razenby Have you seen one of these noco genius 10's yet filled with what looks to be a gray silicone rubber? ...you can't even get at the top side of the circuit board (I was able to peel it all off the bottom side, but not the top) ...I'm not sure how to remove the nasty stuff without trashing the board ...ugh!
Good question! Lead acid batteries can never be fully repaired. They start to deteriorate the moment that they are put into use. You can take effective steps to keep a battery healthy whilst it is healthy. Similar to a good diet and exercise for a human. But once the deterioration is no more than slightly noticeable these 'wonder products' might be able to get a few months more use from it but essentially the battery is is doomed. Sorry for the bad news. The same guys who market battery chargers also market miracle skin cream and snake oil!!
I bought this item about a month ago. I have a 2nd car that is rarely driven so the battery gradually discharges. With misplaced confidence, I connected the NOCO Genius 5 to my car. At that time, the battery was about 50% discharged. I left it charging for 3 days. Then I went out to my car and tried to start it. I just got the dreaded click click from the starter. I looked at the charger and saw the error light "Bad battery error LED". So, all the time I thought the battery was charging, it WAS NOT!! I connected my DELCO charger, set it to 40 amps and within minutes, the car started right up. So much for a "bad battery". I'll continue to evaluate but my 1st impression is not good.
Presumably the Genius 1 has 1A max charge so it's really only a trickle charger and wouldn't help much if you had a flat battery. And if you had a small steady drain whilst in a vehicle it might not even keep up. I can't remember whether the bigger Nocos kicked in if battery voltage fell - i.e. were actually battery maintainers. No doubt all will be revealed in due course.
@@markdauncey927 Dont think thats the case, according to noco, and many reviews on amazon. Apparently, Noco tries to make you buy the higher current ver, but if you can afford time to charge, genius1 seems to do everything just fine. This is especially true, if repair mode is doing nothing.
It wasn't so much a slow charge as a long charge - the important element is the adsorption phase at the end where voltage is held constant until current drops off.
@@markdauncey927The chargers claim to do this stage automatically, I will chart it and see what it is doing during the completion stages of the charger. Trying the latest CTEK 5A charger on the battery right now to see how that performs on the charger and Repair cycle. From what I have seen so far I expect the capabilities of the chargers to measure the an accurate terminal voltage is going to be an issue.
10.6V at zero load or resting voltage would be detrimental. The the lower the discharge current at 10.6V the more damage it will cause as the state of discharge is much deeper. ...... However 10.6V @ 10Amps load is equivalent to about a 11.6 to 12.0V discharge voltage. The load cuts when 10.6V is reached @ 10A load not at the open circuit at rest battery terminal voltage. Apples and oranges.
Be original. The definition of stupidity is quoting someone else's saying and using it to criticize others when you don't have the intelligence to understand what they are saying - Me
Great review, you made some excellent points.
Glad you enjoyed it
Sometimes we will just never know brain freeze. Educational though always good to learn thank you Mr Smoke.
My pleasure, My dad always said to me 'pass it on son, pass it on....'
@@razenby People are generally Shocked by how bad of an Electrician I am. Lol my jokes not much better but look on bright side I always have a spark about me
@@cockneybrian I suppose you have to keep up to date with the CURRENT regulations.(:
@@razenby that is a good one...😀
MANY THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORT AND TIME YOU INVESTED IN THIS, REALLY APPRECIATED!!!! If I were you, I would try to connect it and continue your test with couple of RECONDITIONING cycles with CTEK. It would clearly show whether CTEK is of any better or not. Try this in a background yet, while you tear down NOCO 5.
The CTEK will be bought to bear later today...
@@razenby Afterwards, it might be interesting to see if you can pop the covers off of the cells and check the condition/quantity of the battery fluid. And yes, I do remember you telling me that the battery is maintenance-free so it's sealed. But my experience tells me that many of these so-called maintenance-free batteries aren't really sealed at all. They just hide the covers under a sticker or incorporate the covers into a plastic plate across the top of the battery making it seem like they are sealed when they are not.
I've actually done that with old batteries using the CTEK. I've found that the initial run or two will always shut off after 4 hours of Recon mode (the limit as stated by CTEK) but the runs afterwards will get shorter and shorter as it takes less time to reach to 15.8V.
In theory, the shorter time it takes for the battery to get to 15.8V should mean that something in the battery has changed or else the time to reach 15.8V shouldn't change at all.
One thing that I've learned with the Noco g3500 is to leave the charger connected to the battery several hours after the green light stop flashing .The battery seem to take more charge .
Thanks, interesting. We'll check and see what the Genius 5 version does in this situation.
That's what I read as well - unlike everyone else, a solid green light may not mean that the absorption phase has been completed.
@@razenby I believe that goes back to the Genius 2 parameteric testing you completed where the Genius 2 basically stops charging once it reaches the target voltage (bulk charging - constant current/variable voltage - rather than continue to do an absorption charge - constant voltage/variable current).
10.6 is way over discharge as far as i know lead acid batteries like to stay above 12v under that is bad for tge battery maybe charge then discharge to 12v and cycle like that?
Nice work
Thanks for watching.
I have an old CTEK US 7002 and I just bought a NOCO GENPRO 10x1 and I try to repair batteries with them since the sitting voltage are between 12.4 and 12.6 V. With Victron Smart Battery Sense I can see the charging graph using their app. CTEK just raises the charge voltage in recondition mode it is actually just an equalization charging. NOCO however pulse charge in repair mode and raise the charging voltage gradually for a 4-hour session. Both are supposed to be helpful in desulfation, except CTEK would terminate reconditioning too early instead of trying to keep the voltage as high as 15.9V as stated in their user manual and longer. On the charging side, CTEK seems to charge normal while NOCO might drop and raise voltages randomly at the final charging stages. My main goal is to restore sitting voltage so I haven’t touched the capacity
How effective Recondition is really depends on the type of cell. It doesn't work very well on sealed valve regulated lead acid batteries. By the time you realise that there is a problem with the battery performance is it usually too late. The chargers I have tested rarely perform according to their claimed specifications. The electronics are too cheap and the spread of tolerances causes errors in the controllers perception of what the actual battery terminal voltage is.
Hi great videos, they helped me repair my CTEK charger. Thanks. In relation to this battery you have been testing it seems to be holding up quite well under the 10A load, but you were saying it won’t start the car if you leave the lights on for 15mins. Could be it is losing its Cranking capacity rather than the AH capacity as the AH capacity seems to be holding up well for a long time. Not sure how you would test the CCA though.
15 mins might have been an exaggeration. Maybe half an hour stopped on the fast lane. Got stranded. You would never know there was an issue it always starts sprightly. The first indication that we should have acted sooner was that it wouldn't start after washing and valet he did with the radio on and the doors and boot open. Maybe 90 minutes. I am more cautious with the family's batteries now. We will test CCA. Tempted to cut the top off...
The only thing for it is to access the cells and add distilled water, one or more of the cells are likely dry that's what I did when I had the same issue I found it was an ordinary battery with a sticker over the fillers. The battery worked for another 19 months or so.
I'll give that a go. I have about 100 tiPs on how to fix it. I am curious to know what works!
Very interesting.. I would really like to see what happens if you used the ZYX J30 12/24v 8A charger in its repair mode and then check battery capacity thereafter. I have had good success with this in terms of Cold Cranking Amps (tested with an Ancel battery tester) and specific gravity readings off a hydrometer. Unfortunately I don't have the equipment you have to measure the Amp / Hour capacity of a battery so would be interested to see what happens .
Thanks. OK we will do a before and after CCA test with the 8A charger.
The slow discharge delivering higher capacity was to be expected but the fact that it also 'repaired' the battery more than the charger was very interesting.
Doing it many times wouldn't help long term as each full discharge to 10.6V is one more cycle off the life.
Perhaps after a long slow charge the charger repair mode might do something?
My gut reaction is that it won't but you never know.
With batteries prevention is certainly better than cure - fully recharge after a significant discharge but preferably don't let it discharge in the first place.
My experience with starter batteries is that with a good alternator and regular use you can get 2 or maybe 3 times the nominal guaranteed life.
Thanks. It seems everyone has expectations and beliefs but the facts are a bit of a muddle. It is a very lucrative market and the manufacturers involved in it know that customers have low expectations. It is possible that modern batteries have been weight and cost reduced to such an extent that they are only just fit for purpose.
@@razenby Agreed.. after 30 years, as novice.. and now researched.. battery know how became somewhat of a circus coming to town,, ans now with tech, .. an ILLUSIONIST. $$$ Yup, built " fit, for purpose"
Thank you for this impressive video sequence. I like very much the precision and the deepness of your work shown on it. Being in the process of choosing a battery charger to by, the raw data collected in your experiments can be in great help. I will highly appreciate if you decide to share with us your CSV files. I think a lot of people will be glad to deep dive in the data by themself.
Glad you enjoyed it! I'll upload the CSV files to a file sharing area. I need to set one up.
It will be interesting to see if you can get more capacity by using again the Aidi charger.
I think it would be the same result. Desulphation doesn't really work for most batteries.
I'm interested in your thoughts on the requirement to charge calcium batteries at voltages upwards of 16V. Most calcium charge modes charge up to at least 15.2V or so and I notice that the Noco 5 doesn't specifically have a calcium mode. Have you compared the Noco 5 to other chargers that have a calcium mode?
The 16V figure is mentioned here and there but I have never seen it on the battery manufacturers data sheet. If you know of one then pleas me the link. As far as I can tell it seems to be a recommended periodic practice to remove oxidation from the plates. To be fully charges, Ca batteries require a higher termination voltage. (14.8V at 20 deg C). Charging in AGM mode can accomplish this. As we have demonstrated and calculated in the videos, the voltage measurement electronics of the 'smart' chargers we have tested aren't that accurate or repeatable anyway. The termination voltage for Calcium is 3% higher that standard VRLA. Some say that you should not use a calcium battery on a car not designed for calcium as the charging system is designed for it. I have found alternators on cars are very hit and miss on the maximum voltage. Start the engine and measure it when you pick up the revs to 1,500RPM. If you see 14.7 then it is about right. Lower than that then you will have to charge periodically to 14.7V to keep it tip-top.
I’ve always believed in charging and discharging any battery slowly with a low a current as is practically possible. It seems your test might bear this out. I recently bought the Noco Genius 2 to do exactly that after seeing your video on it.
Maybe interesting to compare the Genius 2 and Genius 5 and see if actually slow and steady wins you capacity?
Thanks for the comment. In the 70s my dad used to say 'slow charge is good' . All we had then for cars were the flooded lead acid batteries with a top up cap for every cell. You could see the plates and you could also see white dusting of Lead sulphate disappear as the battery was charged. There seem to be half a dozen reasons why batteries lose capacity. There are dominant reasons, the nature of the beast itself, mechanical, chemical, poor quality and shitty materials. The question is what is wrong with this battery? The battery that came with my B class diesel lasted 9 Years with no trouble. The new replacement is drooping after 4. I wonder if the battery manufacturers care how long they last so long as there is no warranty claims. Consulting the 'delaing with warranty claims section in the Yaesu reseller agents handbook, there is just about NO situation where they will accept a warranty claim. Every fault except open circuit is put down to battery abuse and warranty refused. As it is impossible to prove that you didn't abuse your battery you are powerless.
@@razenby I’m pretty sure it’s like most things, they make a product to last the life of the warranty. Planned obsolescence and all that. Most likely the beginning of ‘maintenance free’ battery..
Yep I remember those caps to fill with distilled water, Lead Acid doesn’t like much of a discharged state and the lower you go hurts it more, i think an ideal would be no lower than 80% of full charge, certainly no lower than 50%. Maybe cars should have come with a small solar panel in the roof to constantly keep the battery at 100% when it’s not running, but hey they wouldn’t sell as many batteries now would they lol
@@The_Last_Post çok haklısın bu konuda
@@razenby Who is the battery manufacturer, and is it in the U.K? Johnson Controls moved their battery manufacturing to Mexico, and the video's I have seen on them is that they no longer last as long as when they were made in the USA. Odyssey Batteries use 99.9 percent pure lead and are still made in the USA and designed to last 10 years, I believe they also have a manufacturing site in France for the European market.
They used to use virgin steel plates inside each battery all the manufacturers stoped using them except for Odyssey. Odyssey still uses virgin steel and they last twice as long but they are 50% higher priced also. I started using them in all my cars and boats, to me it's worth it to not have to replace my AGM battery every 24 months on the dot. Batteries are not the same as years ago. 12v Lead acid batteries last 1 year, AGM last 2 years, Odyssey lasts 4 years, LiFePo4 batteries last 5-10 years but you can't use them in a car just yet, you'll kill the battery if you charge it if it's less than 32 degrees F 0 degree Celcius outside. They now make them with internal heaters that cost $70-$100 more but you still can't use those as is in a car, their internal resistance is so low that if it's discharged and you charge it from an alternator it will accept the full amperage charge your alternator can put out and a regular alternator will burn up because they aren't meant to run at long periods at 100+ amps. New smart alternators are fixing this issue though but it will be awhile before all cars have those as standard. They also don't handle high vibration like a lead acid battery can. The future will be good though, were close.
What might be happening in cycles 10 and 11 may be similar to what I found after running a recond mode on my CTEK MXS5.0 - lower test results after running the recond mode but high results if I run a regular charge cycle again after the recond mode. I suspect that the CTEK's recond mode due to the equalization charge creates enough gas bubbles in the battery to reduce the capacity of the charge (ie the gas bubbles act like sulfate and prevent the charging process on certain parts of the plate) resulting in an incomplete charge during reconditioning. However, if the battery was left sitting overnight so that many of those bubbles can rise to the surface or get reabsorbed back into the liquid and thereby exposing areas of the cell's plates again, a normal charge cycle will finish charging those areas that had bubbles. Granted, my testing involved an uncalibrated conductance battery tester and the difference was only a few percent of the CCA, it aligns with the results of this test.
While the CTEK's recond mode is more like the traditional equalization charge than the NOCO's repair mode (according to the previous videos), I suspect we might be seeing something similar. What would be interesting to see is if another repair mode cycle was done and then it was followed up with by a normal charge and then a 10A discharge, would we see a similar improvement in performance?
Interesting point. I'll try that. As I understand it the recombination of H and O generated during Hydrolysis in a VRLA battery recombine to prevent electrolyte loss. At low charge currents (~70 milliamps) the plates should not gas. Have you worked out the key failure of these charges yet? There is a prize for the first person to mention it.
@@razenby My guess would be input spikes/dips/noise would be the most likely culprit of failures? Fast aging caps perhaps?
@@razenby In theory, you are correct low current charging should not gas.
By failures, do you mean of this particular charger or all the chargers you have tested?
Good video, will you be doing the shock charge like you mentioned in the first video with the large silver box on the floor?
Yes, the 'brown-trousers on' moment is coming.
LeadAcid would recover etc. But AGM - I don't believe, since there is no boiling water inside doing desulfatation.
Depends on the battery. Sealed Lead acid cells don't respond well to gassing. The rate of recombination of the gasses is limited. Too much current and the pressure relief valve lets the gasses out leading to loss of electrolyte.
I've had good results (9 out of 13) reviving aging or dead car AGM battery with desulfator charger such as this one so far. You are 100% correct with the lack of electrolyte part as I need to add distilled water before attempting to repair them or, most of the time, I ended up making the battery's performance worse after a complete charge both measured Ah and internal resistance wise. The main reason I only bother with car batteries is that their valves are easily removable by unscrewing them unlike deep cycle ones which often have a molded platic plate over them
It fix my battery good
great news. Thanks for watching.
Slow charging often helps NiMh battery too
Thanks for watching.
At step 9 did you charge for 24hr before the test. That wasn't clear in you video when you described the steps but in you table it seemed to indicate a 24hr charge before test. If you didn't charge after repair mode then it's hard to know how the battery repair worked since the next test was the 2amp drain test. Anyway, your videos were brilliant, I appreciate the time and energy you put into this. Thanks!
Yes I did. It says that the battery should be fully charged. Successful recovery of a failing battery is an urban myth. It may of worked in the old days when batteries were open-vent flooded lead acid with substantial plates but VRLA don't respond well to (preconditioning and repair modes) . These modes should be re labelled 'risky over charging mode which is what they are.
@@razenby I think you are right-just risky overcharging for newer designs. And this is not proof of cheaper design (def does seem related), at one time you could get older batteries with 3 years total replacement and up to 8/9 years prorated. Alll I can find now in the USA is 3 year replacement for even the premium ones.
Hey I have a BMW F30 with an agm battery, about 2-4 months ago the my car battery came so low that the car shut some electronics off to conserve energy, I can still lock and unlock car with key fob but it’s still low, I just got a Noco 10amp and I tried using it, I hooked it up to the terminals in the engine bay, it charged very fast ( the bar indicators where going up every 10 minutes or so ), it was showing that it was almost fully charged which was at the green bar, every time I unlock or lock car using key fob which uses power and the bar indicators drop down to the first one, also when I took off the charger after it said it was almost fully charged but it still showed my car was still on low battery, any ideas to what might be wrong such as, a bad sulfated battery, or etc….? I know there’s something wrong because it’s going up a bar quickly, when I use power it goes back down to one bar, and the car still says it’s low on battery so it shuts down some electronics, is there something I’m doing wrong, do I need to put it in repair mode and does that mode work on agm batteries, or is it just a bad battery, I don’t have any tools to measure voltages, plz lmk ASAP, Thank You!
It should not lose charge that fast, If the battery terminals are clean and tight then it likely that you need a new battery, If you know anyone with a battery tester then you can ascertain the battery's condition.
Great videos Magic Smoke! I've just received a NOCO Genius 5.
We have a 60AH Agribatt which was down to 12.37 V today which I believe is classed as 'charge as soon as possible.'
Got it home on the NOCO charger, and it cycled all the way to green status in less than 3 minutes, indicating the "bulk" of the charge is done. The battery then read 12.6 V.
Following NOCOs instructions I put it back on charge, and eventually after 8 hours, only the green light stayed on indicated 100% optimized. Volts then reading 13.01 V.
My question does this sound normal to have the bulk of the charge done in 3 minutes flat? Is 12.37V not really that discharged? Was the extra 8 hours of charging worth it for the steady green only light?
Thanks in advance!
On a healthy battery 12.37v resting voltage is about 65% charged. The key thing to note is the 'healthy battery' bit . If you fully charge the battery and leave it for a couple for days and the battery reads 12.37V then the battery is not in tip top condition. The resting voltage (24hr after charge) after charge is a good indicator of the condition of the battery. A fully charged healthy battery should have a resting voltage of 12.6V . The relationship between (terminal voltage vs current vs state of charge) is undefined for a failing / aged battery. For a weak battery, when subjected to bulk charge current, the terminal voltage rises quickly without absorbing any charge so the charger has no alternative but to switch to the next charging stage. Judge you battery after a an extensive float charge and recondition cycle. Recondition it for a week and then repeat the resting voltage test . Let's see what results you get. Please report.
@@razenby thanks for the helpful reply! Its a 60 AH leisure battery running an electric fence energizer. From new its lasted 2.5 months without a charge, until it read 12.37 V and I decided to charge. Its now reading 12.91 V after being stood overnight since I took the charger off.
What volts would you reccomend taking it home for a charge again? I'm going to refit it to the energizer today.
It sits in a plastic box on a field, raised off the ground with 2 bricks and bit of plyboard, and it's currently 3*C in the day and some minus 4*C expected overnights!
I think what everyone has to understand is that there is no magic mode that will fix all batteries. Ultimately, whether a desulphation or reconditioning or repair charge will restore battery performance depends on why the battery is underperforming in the first place and the severity of what ails it. Some types of ailments are simply catastrophic or irreversible, while others are more reversible depending at what stage it's at. How I'd sum it up is that these 'special modes' are far more likely to result in meaningful positive gains when used on a battery that is still performing at 80%+ of it's original specification than it is when used on a battery who's performance has decayed to a shell of it's original performance.
True but who does anything to a battery untill it starts to let you down. this battery condition wouldn't even be notice for longer had it not been for the unusual situation that it was put to.. generally batteries go bad because the plates are falling apart, nothing can reverse. Then it gets put under a bush and calcifies, and people think they can fix it
Explain that to the charger manufacturers!! They make outrageous marketing claims. Interesting theory. I am just curious why would you 'sum it up' that it works on a battery that can retain 80% of its specified charge and not on batteries that have decayed to say 70%? I would be interested in the evidence. We have 6 cars in our household with different aged batteries. I see if any of then are 80%ers and give the theory a test,
@@razenby Love your content man! You're super knowledgeable in this field. Even I with my daily drive charge my battery over night on the Noco Genuis 1 occassionally once every 2-3 months just to get rid of an sulfation to may have come about. I'll continute to do so once any of my batteries reach the 2 year mark as most warrenties start to end around this time on battery replacement.
@@dbzownz12345 Thanks. Your is a good strategy- To give an absorption/float charge periodically on a town car is the only way it will get the final 20% in. I don't know but if I had to guess, most town cars are diving around with 80% or less charge in the sulphation zone.
I just bought the Noco 5...it's cold where I live and I was having problems with the cold killing my battery. I used the NOCO 5 to fully charged the battery and then put it in repair mode. So I had a fully charge battery that went through 1 round in the repair mode. Today, 1 day later I go out to start my Jeep and after just a few seconds the battery is dead. The weather was cold overnight about -35 celcius.
Do you think my battery is just shot or would that happen to a healthy battery in that temperature?
Interesting that the Noco Genius5 user manual states that the over voltage, bad battery and reverse polarity lights all flash to together when the ambient temperature is too high or too low. It the specs it is rated to work down to -20 deg. It states that normal function will resume when the ambient warms up. It doesn't say if normal function resumes in the mode you left it or it goes into standby. I'll test it.
That shouldn't happen to a health battery. According to what I've read, a new regular flooded battery that is fully charged has a freezing point of -70C or thereabouts. Since -35C is far from -70C and you just fully charged the battery (at leat according to the NOCO charger), that battery should have been OKAY unless the battery is bad or the charger is bad.
Of course great effort! But bloody hell all I want to know is whether it's a good car battery charger
I just present the evidence and you decide. My opinion is that both the NOCO and the Genius are unfairly priced and the simplicity of what they actually do obfuscated by battery folklore rather than real world accurate measurement. Just a couple more in the series and you will know. I wouldn't buy a CTEK though.
@@razenby thank you, I was researching chargers as my vehicle has been locked up in the garden for quite sometime and I was having to drive it down the motorway every 2 weeks which is a pain in the backside, I purchased the noco genius 5 as I was watching your videos a few weeks back, used it twice now and yeah couple of hours and its fully charged. I think most people will want a charger for this reason and probably dont care about all the other features.
Definitely agree, overpriced for sure paid £64.99, I felt the only 2 choices were the ctek and noco, i just wanted a simple plug and play device, no hassle, if it works for a few years I'll be happy with it.
The condition of the battery plays a huge role... You need to do these test under new battery conditions..
And yes the Noco Genius 5 or 10 can fix old batteries. But the limit seems to be around 90% of the original battery rating...Not to mention type.. As I use them for AGM batteries.. As they cost a fortune at $800.00 each. As they are Cell phone tower batteries. They decommission them every 3 years. Even though they are rated for10 years..So I want to keep them at 12.8 volts.
Why - please explain why the battery has to be new. The battery is only new the day it leaves the factory-- it is a story of steady deterioration which accelerates when the battery is used. So, you cant test under new conditions as battery chargers aren't often used on new starter batteries,. How do you know regeneration works- Have you done any quantitative testing?
@@razenby I battery is not new when it leaves the factory. As they do not transport them filled.. They get filled at the point of sale...Some Auto parts stores fill them when they arrive. Bad Idea. As they will be discharged below 90%... I have taken testers with me. To check the resting voltage on them before I buy one..As they shove the older ones to the front.
So my suggestion. Buy batteries of the same type and model. Hell even the same lot number if you can..Then do your test. You will see what I mean...
And I know regeneration works. As I buy AGM Cell Tower batteries at 12.5 resting voltage..After they decommissioned them every 3 years...Once I use repair mode. They end up around 12.8 to 12.9 which is what the factory says they should be at.
These are not cheap batteries. The Cell Companies buy them $900.00+ ones rated for 10 years..I get them for $110.00...I asked them why they sell them after 3 years use. Answer..They test them. If they fall below 12.6 they are removed..Even though the factory warranties them for 10 years..They just auction them off...
@@WizzRacing I agree with you my friend
Is there a brand of charger that has variable amperage say 2 amp 5 Amp 10 Amp that you can recommend? Noco has a set Amperage which is not good for varied sizes of battery. eg 10 AH to 150AH batteries.
Yes there are several out there. However I haven't tested one.
You're doing great work here! I have question - is it better to have two chargers (eg. Genius 2 and Genius 5) for motorcycle and car battery (20Ah and 50Ah)? Or higher Amp one will be fine for small battery too?
Thanks. I don't know the answer to that. I am logging the charge current and terminal voltage with a CTEK at the moment so we can see what it does. Then the same thing with repair mode if it can be invoked. I also have another a battery from my Jag that the dealership told me needed replacing last week at the service so I got the old one back. I had no idea that it was iffy at all just possibly the starter didn't sound as sprightly after being parked for a couple of weeks. So battery sample size is now 2. If the motorcycle battery you have is the old wet cell type with the ability to access the electrolyte for each cell then you have more latitude as they are much more forgiving than maintenance free type. The next video will be released probably today.
Maybe......the rule is to charge with 10% current...if battery is 50 ah u use a 5a charger..
@@dacomaniac Higher currents within the manufacturers recommendations are OK during the bulk charge phase (open circuit terminal voltage > 11.8V) . When the terminal voltage under charge (still charging) reaches 14.3 to 14.4V You are then in the absorption phase. Then I would advise that you need a very low charge current (~150 mA for a 50Ah battery) during the the absorption phase and cut the current when the terminal current reaches 14.4 to 14.5V . (At 25 Deg C -The terminal voltages are temperature dependent).
@@razenby u re right...i have in ideea and i dont know is good or bad..at 14.3 14,4 change the charger to moto at 0.8 a.is that good? Thank u so mucch
@razenby Thanks for all the lessons like this, I read all the comments in mist of your videos about the chargers ❤
Well maybe the longer charging duration led to more gassing of the battery reversing some stratification which in turn reversed some sufation and increased capacity. But honestly it could also just be due to measurement error.
I heard the gassing theory many times before. The battery is a VRLA sealed maintenance free. Gas is reabsorbed due to the ambient cell pressure and the composition of the plates. If dissociation to gas happens at a rate faster than the capability to recombine into back water of the plates then it will leak the gas the electrolyte level will drop. Interested in your doubts about the measurement accuracy. Please explain your doubts about the mighty £3,000 Yokogawa WT210. The Yokogawa is a £3,000 instrument. Error is
@@razenby Well yes at some point the electrolyte level will drop but i was focusing on the gas bubbles mixing the electrolyte, removing some possibly existing acid stratification and thus maybe some more sulfation at the top of the plates, restoring some active area. Very theoretical, really.
Concerning my mention of measurement error: I wasn't trying to question your expertise, I was merely trying to voice my concern when trying to deduce anything from a one time measurement of a parameter with a mere change of about 2 %. In my opinion there are just a lot of uncertainties. Was the temperature of the battery the exact same in both tests, as the chemical reaction speed relies heavily on it? Did the Yokogawa warm up for the same time for both experiments and for at least 30 mins? The Yokogawa is listed with a DC power accuracy of ±(0.3% of reading + 0.2% of range) at 23+-5°C which you're barely within at 18°C. If you had the Frequency filter turned on the accuracy is less at an additional 1% of reading. Then additionally the cutoff voltage could differ ever so slightly between tests. But honestly I'm not an expert in this field and you might very well know more about this than I do. Anyways, keep up the great work, I very enjoy the videos.
@@razenby No such thing as sealed Lead Acid.. They just cover the caps up with a sticker...I saved many a UPS battery by removing them stickers. To get at the fill caps...As damn near every one of the plates. Were exposed for lack of water.....
Do you know what causes that interference with the sound in your video? I used to hear it all the time with my speakers but now I never hear it and I could never think what caused it. WiFi? 3 or 4G signals from a mobile? I'm interested to know. Thanks for the great vid!
Yup. It's his mobile. The first time you've noticed that? 🤣
Cellular radio modem. It causes fierce interference. In future I will turn it off.
@@razenby No need, I don't mind. The last time I heard it, I don't think I even had a mobile so was quite a while ago. Must have been a family members.
any idea why my noco genius 5 is dead no lights what so ever. triple checked plug fuse ,and the inline fuse, till no light nothing. thats whether connected to good battery or not i believe there is another fuse inside the unit that you carn`t get to is this correct if so that nut
There is a fuse inside the unit but if it is blown it invariably means that the switching power supply has had a catastrophic failure.. I have never seen a failed NOCO unit...
I have a brand new NOCO 5x3. Two of the banks work fine on 24volt tolling batts. The third bank I use for the crank batt or a seperate fish finder batt. When I press the power button for this bank, three different led lights flicker quickly in sequence one time, then nothing. Any idea would be a great help?
Are all the backs 12 volt? Do all teh chargers behave in the same way on the fish finder bank? Can't think why it would do that if the battery voltage is above about 7 Volts.
@@razenby two banks work fine and the batt in question is at 11v
Yes female lol I love doing all my car stuff myself... maybe not the massive jobs tho ha! Thanks for this 👍
You are welcome.
Have you measured electrolyte density? That's a good indicator of the battery condition.
I will check the SG at some point. I am investigating the claims of the charger manufacturers that you can buy their product instead of buying a new battery. Checking the electrolyte is a problem for the average user who has a semi sealed lead acid maintenance free battery. I have another battery from my Jaguar that has just had a new one fitted at the garage because the mechanic said it was due for replacement. I hadn't noticed anything wrong with it so that might be interesting. At the end I will cut the top of the 3 year old Halfords battery so we can see what condition the plates are in.
@@razenby i noticed that the repair mode works fine on a smaller batteries. A motorcycle battery in a repair mode was charged with 16.5-17V while 80ah battery in a repair mode is getting only 15V
@@rymek1 The old continuous current over-voltaging (overcharging) method is not recommended for maintenance free batteries but we will try it. This NOCO uses the current pulse method. Only works if you walk widdershins around the battery for 10 minutes at the end of the process.
@@razenby It would be interesting to see how much water is actually lost during a school continuous current over-voltaging method especially with these newer batteries that are sealed.
@@razenby i understant ctek use coninous curent and noco use pulse.thats made the differnt.
regarding line 10: you used the Noco 5 to discharge? how is this done? Thanks.
I use an ITECH computer programmable load which is controlled by the test utility. to discharge the battery.
@@razenby Thanks for your response. Also, regarding line 11, did you use Noco 5 to charge the battery? It seems like you were charging closer to 1 amp vs the Noco's 5 amp rate.
i just bought a Genius 5 to charge my battery in my Audi A3. the car has been stored for 5 months. i plugged the charger in and it registered one red box flickering on/off. after 12 hours it was flickering green. i left it overnight and in the morning it was back to one red box on/off. what could have happened? there was no load on it.
Most likely the battery is completely flat and ruined and wont take charge,
Any idea what could go wrong on a noco 10 charger? ...I can't get any lights to come on, period. Not even if I hold the power button down for 10 secs.
Any help? ...I can't find anything on the web anywhere.
It needs repairing - I cant think of any straight forward things to try apart from taking it apart and checking out the circuitry.
Not really. Probably the Switch mode power supply has failed. I could take a look at it for you.
@@razenby Have you seen one of these noco genius 10's yet filled with what looks to be a gray silicone rubber? ...you can't even get at the top side of the circuit board (I was able to peel it all off the bottom side, but not the top) ...I'm not sure how to remove the nasty stuff without trashing the board ...ugh!
🛑 Hi, thanks for the information. How long does it take to maintain the battery in an hour ??? And can he repair a 4-year-old battery ?? ⛔
Good question! Lead acid batteries can never be fully repaired. They start to deteriorate the moment that they are put into use. You can take effective steps to keep a battery healthy whilst it is healthy. Similar to a good diet and exercise for a human. But once the deterioration is no more than slightly noticeable these 'wonder products' might be able to get a few months more use from it but essentially the battery is is doomed. Sorry for the bad news. The same guys who market battery chargers also market miracle skin cream and snake oil!!
I bought this item about a month ago. I have a 2nd car that is rarely driven so the battery gradually discharges. With misplaced confidence, I connected the NOCO Genius 5 to my car. At that time, the battery was about 50% discharged. I left it charging for 3 days. Then I went out to my car and tried to start it. I just got the dreaded click click from the starter. I looked at the charger and saw the error light "Bad battery error LED". So, all the time I thought the battery was charging, it WAS NOT!! I connected my DELCO charger, set it to 40 amps and within minutes, the car started right up. So much for a "bad battery". I'll continue to evaluate but my 1st impression is not good.
Clearly your battery is duff or has internal leakage. A 40 amp charger will strip the plates. Here to hoping you find a permanent solution soon.
found a solution?
@@KutsiTekin I've had better luck since then. Same battery, same car, but no issues. Don't know why.
@@razenby How will 40 amps strip the plates when the alternator puts out more than that?
If the slow discharge and slow charging is better, and repair mode didn’t do anything, it basically says go buy the genius1 for less money!
Good point. We will get around to discussing that soon. Just talked to a battery manufacturer's application specialist. Very interesting.
Presumably the Genius 1 has 1A max charge so it's really only a trickle charger and wouldn't help much if you had a flat battery.
And if you had a small steady drain whilst in a vehicle it might not even keep up.
I can't remember whether the bigger Nocos kicked in if battery voltage fell - i.e. were actually battery maintainers.
No doubt all will be revealed in due course.
@@markdauncey927 Dont think thats the case, according to noco, and many reviews on amazon. Apparently, Noco tries to make you buy the higher current ver, but if you can afford time to charge, genius1 seems to do everything just fine. This is especially true, if repair mode is doing nothing.
It wasn't so much a slow charge as a long charge - the important element is the adsorption phase at the end where voltage is held constant until current drops off.
@@markdauncey927The chargers claim to do this stage automatically, I will chart it and see what it is doing during the completion stages of the charger. Trying the latest CTEK 5A charger on the battery right now to see how that performs on the charger and Repair cycle. From what I have seen so far I expect the capabilities of the chargers to measure the an accurate terminal voltage is going to be an issue.
Is there a fuse inside?
Likely yes. But to be honest I cant remember. If the fuse blows then invariably the electronics are toast.
@@razenby I’ve used it 4 times and it’s fairly new.
10.6 seems like too low of a DOD to not cause damage.
10.6V at zero load or resting voltage would be detrimental. The the lower the discharge current at 10.6V the more damage it will cause as the state of discharge is much deeper. ...... However 10.6V @ 10Amps load is equivalent to about a 11.6 to 12.0V discharge voltage. The load cuts when 10.6V is reached @ 10A load not at the open circuit at rest battery terminal voltage. Apples and oranges.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.- Albert Einstein
Be original. The definition of stupidity is quoting someone else's saying and using it to criticize others when you don't have the intelligence to understand what they are saying - Me
I don't think these 'repair' modes do anything worthwhile on these little chargers.
I'm still interested in the teardown though please.
Agree. many people & companies have really tried, none have demonstrably succeeded, so yup. Waste of money & time to try. Buy a new 'un.
Thanks. Please keep your opinions coming whilst I investigate the facts.
@@skysurferuk Not so fast, I'll show you what works at the end of the series.
you showed a spread sheet, then a fast shot of testing equip before that. never any real tests with same equip. not very credible
What are you saying? You men I faked the results? Why would I bother?