Tanking doesn’t give you any advantage as far as reaching the highest rank. Regardless of how low your ELO gets, you eventually have to get back to where you started before going any higher. Also, the game didn’t “catch on.” Your ELO just caught up to where your skill was. Even though you weren’t shown your ELO yet, you still are assigned ELO based on your performance. Lastly, tanking is necessary sometimes. I hit legend almost every season. Once your ELO gets high enough (around 3100) it takes FOREVER to find someone to match you with. I don’t have 5 hours to do my battles. So I keep my ELO down to around 3K. I do, however, have a rule: if I face an Expert who is at 2950 or higher, I’ll play the match out until it’s clear who the winner will be then I will top-left. I think tanking is a problem when you impede someone else’s progress. So I don’t do that. One more thing. There 100% IS an algorithm that keeps things balanced. I log EVERY SINGLE Pokémon I play against, as well as my wins/losses. I have an abundance of data that makes it crystal clear the game 100% does match based on typing in certain scenarios: if you get a 5-0 set, the next set you’ll see hard counter Pokémon in the lead for the next set. On the flip side, if you have an 0-5 set, you’ll get favorable matchups in the following set. If you get 3-2s, and 2-3s, it’s random. This is irrefutable. I have data for this going back 4 seasons now, once or twice could be a coincidence. But 200-300 times is a pattern. I’m not saying that it’s a problem. I’m just saying it 1000% exists, and the best way to handle it is to expect hard counters after having an outstanding set and learn how to manage your energy and move timing and get better and learn how to play against those hard checks.
@@jackienatla217 it’s a lot. And I mean a lot. I don’t mind sharing some. But all of it is just too much. Maybe if I get it entered into a soreadsheet I could post it all. For now, it’s all hand written in a journal
Glad someone in the community has been gathering this data. S13 I played over 1000 games and I saw multiple times exactly what you described with the 5-0 set followed up by hard counters. Great research mate keep it up and hope to see a video on it maybe
@@aigoated it’s also to just do the work yourself. In fact, I’d argue that doing so would make my point that much more clear. Once you start seeing the pattern for yourself you won’t be able to deny it any longer
Typically you would lose battles on purpose after you have reached rank 20 since that's the rank when you can encounter legendaries in the go battle league. It's also a good way to gain stardust on go battle days. You shouldn't do it at the beginning of a new season or when you're below rank 20. Losing battles below rank 20 actually demotes you. Whereas you don't get demoted from rank 20 even if you lose.
I wouldn't say its cheating, not even close. Its exploiting the format to maximize rewards without committing too much time. The routine in other areas of the game takes enough time daily and this is the only way I would participate in the GBL. Besides, GBL is still too flawed to be taken seriously. The time/effirt vs rewards is just not worth it. Tanking is perfectly fine imo
I don't think the conversation is so much about wanting easy battles, but the fact that there is a good chunk of players that do not have the means to access meta-relevant pokemon and resources to really compete. The people that are tanking don't necessarily care about ranking or battles when they have a less than stellar team, so tanking makes it easier to get the rewards necessary to actually get good pokemon to compete fairly.
It is not just the matching algorithm to blame but the rewards and ranks as well.The reward is the star dust which you get in spite of losses, so why win you rank up regardless and still get stardust.
I did not know there was a term for it. I'm tanking during the psychic cup because I don't have proper pokemon for this cup, but still want the stardust. Apparently I'm annoying players with Meta Pokemon by doing this, but I really don't care. My experience with this game is important too.
very true, there is Algorithm, it is impossible to have everyone i know are in 50% win/lose rate overall battles results. no matter what level player you are. it is impossible to have 50/50 for everyone, no matter they tanking or not tanking.
To decent level players lol but you're destroying the noobs, many of which are naive boys and girls, literal kids that are just trying to have a fun time.
I've never before heard of this, but now that you explained it, I'm sure I've met people who do this. I sometimes get opponents who have Pokemon that all are about 40CP. Then there are players who come with a good team, but don't do anything, they just let me beat them down. I thought that that is a connection problem or maybe their phone froze, but maybe that is intentional too? Then there are those matches that end right after the start, I also thought that that's a connection problem, but it may be that the other player is just giving up right away.
If you even admitted that you see a difference in tanking that confirms their is an algorithm. Its not just about type advantages. Niantic is hella sneaky they implement different ways to force a player to loose like "lag" and just havint teams you stand no chance against just to name a few ways..ive hit legend multiple times and i can assure you this game has an agenda to keep you playing and keeping you around that 50-60% win rate is definitely it
Most likely we have all experienced a day where we seem to get a bunch of easy matches followed by a bunch of lost leads the next day. While it is easy to blame an "algorithm," the truth almost surely that we have gone up in rank and are now facing a group of players with a completely different meta.
It is how the game is designed so I don't think someone should feel bad for playing that way. You did lose those battles when you could of gotten rewards.
i just tank whenever the raid boss is a pokemon i already have. don’t wanna waste the encounters on stuff that’s a little less common but I already have a bunch of regigigas so I figured why not tank before the three legendary genies come out.
Tanking as a tool like any other strategy. The top players exploit it constantly and so should you. Unless you don't care about your elo. If that's the case run a fun team and develop.
Hopefully you never had to stoop so low like some fucking Ioser does when they decide to get dropped harder from a child, as an adult, to develop a tanking mindset on pvp. kudos to you.
I put stardust into great league pokemon and got my rank to 1900 something. Now its master league and I face level 50 pokemon. And I dont so I ranked down today since I had walked 100km and had a star piece going. Anyway there should be different ranks for each league.
It's all about perspective. If you see it as "I only have so many battles per day, why waste them?" then obviously tanking makes no sense. But think about the other side of "I don't have time for 25 battles per day," and you quickly realize that tanking is the best way to gain free resources in the game (stardust, TMs, Rare Candy). I don't like GBL, my average season is maybe 40 battles, but I started tanking about a week ago. Here are my stats: Last season 33 Wins, 55 Battles, 50,307 Stardust This season (in a week remember) 102 Wins, 200 Battles, 128,515 Stardust Not to mention the TMs and Rare Candies I earned once I realized I was facing other tankers and could use that to even further resource gaining advantage I just hit rank 20 now. I could have hit it earlier if I had realized the critical path for leveling up sooner. Now if I'm busy one day I can tank 100% and guarantee at minimum 15k stardust every day. Once my ELO gets low I can then guarantee premium resources. My goal isn't winning, I literally couldn't care less about proving I'm better than someone else. My goal is resources; stardust, TMs, and rare candies. Tanking is the META for that. So I have two teams for each league; a META team that's CP capped and dual moved, and a "cheese" team that's literally 10CP that I just let get obliterated. I cheese to lower my ELO and to use every battle I have for the day to gain stardust. Once I notice my matches are clearly against other tankers I rack up win streaks to add TMs, rare candies, and additional stardust to my winnings.
I don't know how I feel about tanking as an unethical or ethical thing to do. I am someone who purposefully lose almost all matches except one per set until I reach rank 11 because I am only interested in getting to rank 20 as fast as possible. In the meantime, I am only interested in the stardust for the 1st win of each set. I am not tanking to have easy win streaks, I am tanking to get to potential legendaries in the battle league as fast as possible. Also, I had a few matches against other people tanking now and it's pretty funny to show off some low wp pokemon and battle with them xD
I don't battle for elo I battle out of boredom and keep my elo low because things are much more interesting down here. On a side note, any mythical algorithm would work in your favor half the time. It's just confirmation bias.
This is how every one who doesn't cheat plays it and when you do good you move up to were the computer geeks are with there 5 specal attacks in 10 seconds and 3 sheilds 😅
Okay so tanking does NOT work in gbl as of september 2023, lmao if anything the opponents I'm up against are tougher. I tanked for like 4 days straight and my first battle was against galarian slowking, malamar and victini
Okay I tank in a different way I get to lvl 20 then lose all my matches for 3k or 4K stardust I do this every season I’m not hurting anyone in fact I’m giving wins but what your talking about is scumy
As a low level (and new) pvp encaging individual, i actually think tanking is fine. I expect that I'll get stomped by better players. And there are plenty of battles when i can tell they are going to wipe my 3 with their starter. But when i play against a tanking player, i appreciate that i'll get a better reward (maybe even the rare candies!) in this given round. While the ethics of fixing the game to play lower level players is questionable, i think it may be slightly offset by the fact that you also throw those some low level players a bone while tanking.
I feel like they did something with it in season 15. I tried tanking my first hundred battles and ended up at about 46%. It becomes a race to the quit button and you still on the positive sometimes. And so far 6 of 7 premium passes are used. I got screwed out of the 5 Tm reward. Usually losing the first or second battle. I’m so fucking pissed about it.
Absolutely, throwing games should be permitted. If the player is running short on time to do their GBL battles, deliberately going in with a team to lose is perfectly fine and should attract no penalties. I often drop 300-400 points on GBL days (win 1, drop 4) to get the 3x stardust rewards, as doing 20 sets on a day is just too time consuming for me.
So that's why some of my opponents have teams with next to no CP.... But being a new player (2 months today), and all of a sudden have to battle against Ace ranks is extremely de-motivating, frustrating and totally annoying when you don't stand a chance. I wish you would consider that the opponent is a real person, with feelings and wishes just like you. And even though you give someone "free wins" they rise in rank even if they're still at their level, making it harder for them to really level up. So in the end; is some rare candies and Stardust worth making someone elses experience worse? Would you do walk all over someone like that irl?
does anyone know if tanking at the end of season affects beginning of next season? I notice people do that towards the end. I hit legend so I was wondering if you would get easier matchups throughout next season
Tanking a whole set drops you 80-90 cp. The lowest cp you can get is 300. Once there my strategy is win 3 lose 2 per set and then tank the final set to get back to cp 300. You get stardust and 4 chances at a legendary per day.
I'm not sure how you draw the conclusion that tanking your Elo is an exploitable strategy for climbing ranks. Unless there's some method I'm not seeing it mechanic I'm not understanding, in my personal experience a losing streak (even as long as 10) is reset by the match-making algorithm after 5 more battles, so you can't use tanking to climb actual rank.
It’s also important to remind content creators with fairly large followings not to show these types of exploits because they then get fixed if possible, is it worth it for you,do u get laid or a lot of money for ruining these exploits ? I doubt it
Yeah bulshit there is a type advantage algorithm I stay at 50% no matter what if I win 20 you can bet I'll lose 20. If I have a good 10 streak you can bet there a bad streak in your near future
Love your videos but I'm sick of people like Niantic making billions and making the game shaped around making them money instead of making money for making a good game shaped for the player if we are Pokemon fans we are forced to play a shity game if we want to play... Kind of like we get to sit back and wish that we could get a good live action Pokemon Movie but they make way more pushing out animated after animated after animated crap
I always wait until a Go Battle Day and throw like 30 - 40 in a row, then go on a 50+ game win streak.
Pro tip: tank for a day or 2 before go battle day
Battle day is tmrw and I just figured out what tanking was😭😭😭
Tanking doesn’t give you any advantage as far as reaching the highest rank. Regardless of how low your ELO gets, you eventually have to get back to where you started before going any higher.
Also, the game didn’t “catch on.” Your ELO just caught up to where your skill was. Even though you weren’t shown your ELO yet, you still are assigned ELO based on your performance.
Lastly, tanking is necessary sometimes. I hit legend almost every season. Once your ELO gets high enough (around 3100) it takes FOREVER to find someone to match you with. I don’t have 5 hours to do my battles. So I keep my ELO down to around 3K. I do, however, have a rule: if I face an Expert who is at 2950 or higher, I’ll play the match out until it’s clear who the winner will be then I will top-left. I think tanking is a problem when you impede someone else’s progress. So I don’t do that.
One more thing. There 100% IS an algorithm that keeps things balanced. I log EVERY SINGLE Pokémon I play against, as well as my wins/losses. I have an abundance of data that makes it crystal clear the game 100% does match based on typing in certain scenarios: if you get a 5-0 set, the next set you’ll see hard counter Pokémon in the lead for the next set. On the flip side, if you have an 0-5 set, you’ll get favorable matchups in the following set. If you get 3-2s, and 2-3s, it’s random. This is irrefutable. I have data for this going back 4 seasons now, once or twice could be a coincidence. But 200-300 times is a pattern. I’m not saying that it’s a problem. I’m just saying it 1000% exists, and the best way to handle it is to expect hard counters after having an outstanding set and learn how to manage your energy and move timing and get better and learn how to play against those hard checks.
@@jackienatla217 it’s a lot. And I mean a lot. I don’t mind sharing some. But all of it is just too much. Maybe if I get it entered into a soreadsheet I could post it all. For now, it’s all hand written in a journal
Glad someone in the community has been gathering this data. S13 I played over 1000 games and I saw multiple times exactly what you described with the 5-0 set followed up by hard counters. Great research mate keep it up and hope to see a video on it maybe
@@Knsy I may actually do a video on it one day! Thanks!
@@GrannySingaporePVPso it must be easy to record in a single video
@@aigoated it’s also to just do the work yourself. In fact, I’d argue that doing so would make my point that much more clear. Once you start seeing the pattern for yourself you won’t be able to deny it any longer
Typically you would lose battles on purpose after you have reached rank 20 since that's the rank when you can encounter legendaries in the go battle league. It's also a good way to gain stardust on go battle days. You shouldn't do it at the beginning of a new season or when you're below rank 20. Losing battles below rank 20 actually demotes you. Whereas you don't get demoted from rank 20 even if you lose.
You can speed run rank 20 by losing almost all your battles up to rank 12. Then you start winning.
Do they still have GO Battle days?
I'm 99% sure losing before rank 20 does NOT demote you?
@@sweetschmeat7417 I was tanking before I hit 20 and I did not lose levels, I just stood wherever I was at. Maybe that is how it used to be ?
@@Logan_Library thanks for confirming
I firmly believe the top players tank before their ELO rating at Rank 20. Then shoot up to 2500+ as quickly as possible
Yeah once I get to Rank 20, I'm going to try tanking again
I wouldn't say its cheating, not even close. Its exploiting the format to maximize rewards without committing too much time. The routine in other areas of the game takes enough time daily and this is the only way I would participate in the GBL. Besides, GBL is still too flawed to be taken seriously. The time/effirt vs rewards is just not worth it. Tanking is perfectly fine imo
Good point on it being flawed.
Loosing battles is also a quick way to get stardust, especially if you have no time to complete 25 fights every day.
I think my rank doesn't drop when I lose 5 times continuously,
Is it a part of game or happening to me only?
Bro I surrender every match so that I can level up my rank quickly@@rahulkumarsingh9193
I don't think the conversation is so much about wanting easy battles, but the fact that there is a good chunk of players that do not have the means to access meta-relevant pokemon and resources to really compete. The people that are tanking don't necessarily care about ranking or battles when they have a less than stellar team, so tanking makes it easier to get the rewards necessary to actually get good pokemon to compete fairly.
Its funny when you come across someone else tanking
It is not just the matching algorithm to blame but the rewards and ranks as well.The reward is the star dust which you get in spite of losses, so why win you rank up regardless and still get stardust.
I did not know there was a term for it. I'm tanking during the psychic cup because I don't have proper pokemon for this cup, but still want the stardust. Apparently I'm annoying players with Meta Pokemon by doing this, but I really don't care. My experience with this game is important too.
very true, there is Algorithm, it is impossible to have everyone i know are in 50% win/lose rate overall battles results. no matter what level player you are. it is impossible to have 50/50 for everyone, no matter they tanking or not tanking.
Yeah but if your tanking your deaths are afk deaths so the game your playing you win
I tank my elo to 500 before every go battle day. Usually get 50+ win streaks.
Do you reach legend by doing so ?
Of im rank 20, will I go down to 19 if I start tanking
@@idenaidek7136 no. you don't lose rank
I think it is ethical because you’re handing out free wins during set up
To decent level players lol but you're destroying the noobs, many of which are naive boys and girls, literal kids that are just trying to have a fun time.
I've never before heard of this, but now that you explained it, I'm sure I've met people who do this. I sometimes get opponents who have Pokemon that all are about 40CP. Then there are players who come with a good team, but don't do anything, they just let me beat them down. I thought that that is a connection problem or maybe their phone froze, but maybe that is intentional too? Then there are those matches that end right after the start, I also thought that that's a connection problem, but it may be that the other player is just giving up right away.
I don't tank intentionally, but I will go from 8-2 to 2-8 very often.
🤫agorithm🤭
Watching this while I am currently tanking
If you even admitted that you see a difference in tanking that confirms their is an algorithm. Its not just about type advantages. Niantic is hella sneaky they implement different ways to force a player to loose like "lag" and just havint teams you stand no chance against just to name a few ways..ive hit legend multiple times and i can assure you this game has an agenda to keep you playing and keeping you around that 50-60% win rate is definitely it
dawg how they implement lag? that's a normal problem hard to prevent. Anything else I could totally see.
I have a habit of tanking to help buddy up smaller Pokemon, especially if I don't have a good team for the current league
Like the Houston Astros: If you aint cheating, you aint trying
Don't hate the player, hate the game.😁😅😎
Most likely we have all experienced a day where we seem to get a bunch of easy matches followed by a bunch of lost leads the next day. While it is easy to blame an "algorithm," the truth almost surely that we have gone up in rank and are now facing a group of players with a completely different meta.
See Rustan Crane's comment yet?
The good news about this is you can use Pokemon you actually like to use and it will put you against people you have a chance with.
It is how the game is designed so I don't think someone should feel bad for playing that way. You did lose those battles when you could of gotten rewards.
i just tank whenever the raid boss is a pokemon i already have. don’t wanna waste the encounters on stuff that’s a little less common but I already have a bunch of regigigas so I figured why not tank before the three legendary genies come out.
I don't particularly want easy battles, they don't develop me as a player.
Tanking as a tool like any other strategy. The top players exploit it constantly and so should you. Unless you don't care about your elo. If that's the case run a fun team and develop.
Hopefully you never had to stoop so low like some fucking Ioser does when they decide to get dropped harder from a child, as an adult, to develop a tanking mindset on pvp.
kudos to you.
I put stardust into great league pokemon and got my rank to 1900 something. Now its master league and I face level 50 pokemon. And I dont so I ranked down today since I had walked 100km and had a star piece going. Anyway there should be different ranks for each league.
Not increasing ranking but to cash in on all the rewards!
It's all about perspective. If you see it as "I only have so many battles per day, why waste them?" then obviously tanking makes no sense. But think about the other side of "I don't have time for 25 battles per day," and you quickly realize that tanking is the best way to gain free resources in the game (stardust, TMs, Rare Candy). I don't like GBL, my average season is maybe 40 battles, but I started tanking about a week ago. Here are my stats:
Last season
33 Wins, 55 Battles, 50,307 Stardust
This season (in a week remember)
102 Wins, 200 Battles, 128,515 Stardust
Not to mention the TMs and Rare Candies I earned once I realized I was facing other tankers and could use that to even further resource gaining advantage
I just hit rank 20 now. I could have hit it earlier if I had realized the critical path for leveling up sooner. Now if I'm busy one day I can tank 100% and guarantee at minimum 15k stardust every day. Once my ELO gets low I can then guarantee premium resources.
My goal isn't winning, I literally couldn't care less about proving I'm better than someone else. My goal is resources; stardust, TMs, and rare candies. Tanking is the META for that. So I have two teams for each league; a META team that's CP capped and dual moved, and a "cheese" team that's literally 10CP that I just let get obliterated. I cheese to lower my ELO and to use every battle I have for the day to gain stardust. Once I notice my matches are clearly against other tankers I rack up win streaks to add TMs, rare candies, and additional stardust to my winnings.
Ahhh so this is why I'm getting steamrolled by swampert teams crushing me...
They don't give a crap about mediocre players like us, the meta is not affected by it
I don't know how I feel about tanking as an unethical or ethical thing to do.
I am someone who purposefully lose almost all matches except one per set until I reach rank 11 because I am only interested in getting to rank 20 as fast as possible.
In the meantime, I am only interested in the stardust for the 1st win of each set. I am not tanking to have easy win streaks, I am tanking to get to potential legendaries in the battle league as fast as possible.
Also, I had a few matches against other people tanking now and it's pretty funny to show off some low wp pokemon and battle with them xD
I don't battle for elo I battle out of boredom and keep my elo low because things are much more interesting down here. On a side note, any mythical algorithm would work in your favor half the time. It's just confirmation bias.
This is how every one who doesn't cheat plays it and when you do good you move up to were the computer geeks are with there 5 specal attacks in 10 seconds and 3 sheilds 😅
Okay so tanking does NOT work in gbl as of september 2023, lmao
if anything the opponents I'm up against are tougher.
I tanked for like 4 days straight and my first battle was against galarian slowking, malamar and victini
Tanking is almost required in order to get ahead in pogo
Okay I tank in a different way I get to lvl 20 then lose all my matches for 3k or 4K stardust I do this every season I’m not hurting anyone in fact I’m giving wins but what your talking about is scumy
As a low level (and new) pvp encaging individual, i actually think tanking is fine. I expect that I'll get stomped by better players. And there are plenty of battles when i can tell they are going to wipe my 3 with their starter. But when i play against a tanking player, i appreciate that i'll get a better reward (maybe even the rare candies!) in this given round.
While the ethics of fixing the game to play lower level players is questionable, i think it may be slightly offset by the fact that you also throw those some low level players a bone while tanking.
I feel like they did something with it in season 15. I tried tanking my first hundred battles and ended up at about 46%. It becomes a race to the quit button and you still on the positive sometimes. And so far 6 of 7 premium passes are used. I got screwed out of the 5 Tm reward. Usually losing the first or second battle. I’m so fucking pissed about it.
Absolutely, throwing games should be permitted. If the player is running short on time to do their GBL battles, deliberately going in with a team to lose is perfectly fine and should attract no penalties. I often drop 300-400 points on GBL days (win 1, drop 4) to get the 3x stardust rewards, as doing 20 sets on a day is just too time consuming for me.
So that's why some of my opponents have teams with next to no CP....
But being a new player (2 months today), and all of a sudden have to battle against Ace ranks is extremely de-motivating, frustrating and totally annoying when you don't stand a chance.
I wish you would consider that the opponent is a real person, with feelings and wishes just like you.
And even though you give someone "free wins" they rise in rank even if they're still at their level, making it harder for them to really level up.
So in the end; is some rare candies and Stardust worth making someone elses experience worse? Would you do walk all over someone like that irl?
GBL isn't ethical. If it doesn't play fair, why should i?
Can you still tank if you didn’t tank in the beginning of the season.
I'm surprised you got 20 wins in a row before it caught on.
It may *feels like* , but the reward *IS REAL!*
Can we get much higher?
I’m still confused as to how you get to ace rank
does anyone know if tanking at the end of season affects beginning of next season? I notice people do that towards the end. I hit legend so I was wondering if you would get easier matchups throughout next season
Tanking is the best for ranking
Hey count, Dope vid and can this apply to master league? 👀👀👀👀👀👀👀
Yup its not League specific
@@CountJinsulaOfficial 😈😈😈😈😈😈😈
Your a beast brother 💯
How many battles must be thrown at rank 20 to make the most of the tanking strategy?
Tanking a whole set drops you 80-90 cp. The lowest cp you can get is 300. Once there my strategy is win 3 lose 2 per set and then tank the final set to get back to cp 300. You get stardust and 4 chances at a legendary per day.
I'm not sure how you draw the conclusion that tanking your Elo is an exploitable strategy for climbing ranks. Unless there's some method I'm not seeing it mechanic I'm not understanding, in my personal experience a losing streak (even as long as 10) is reset by the match-making algorithm after 5 more battles, so you can't use tanking to climb actual rank.
If I get the ticket for keldeo will I be able to keep it ?
Wow yeah its pretty silly but good test! At the end of the day pvp is rock paper scissors so its no biggy either way...
Well, I go in with 10cp mons and I am good with rewards for losing all games 😂
lol imagine having to lose on purpose 😔
Sounds more like we have bots in GBL
Lol I lose no matter what lol
It’s also important to remind content creators with fairly large followings not to show these types of exploits because they then get fixed if possible, is it worth it for you,do u get laid or a lot of money for ruining these exploits ? I doubt it
yeah this is lame
If you think they are perposely targeting your team you should put your tin foil hat back on.
Who cares if its ethical
In call of duty, this is known as boosting and it IS cheating
those poor noobs 🥺😂
I would never lose a match on purpose I have too much honor for that
Yeah bulshit there is a type advantage algorithm I stay at 50% no matter what if I win 20 you can bet I'll lose 20. If I have a good 10 streak you can bet there a bad streak in your near future
Interesting how you stay locked at 50% when the players who consistently hit top 10 every season do not 🤨
Love your videos but I'm sick of people like Niantic making billions and making the game shaped around making them money instead of making money for making a good game shaped for the player if we are Pokemon fans we are forced to play a shity game if we want to play... Kind of like we get to sit back and wish that we could get a good live action Pokemon Movie but they make way more pushing out animated after animated after animated crap