MP 40 - Role & "Tactics"
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- Опубліковано 27 гру 2024
- A look at the role of MP 40 (and its very similar “predecessor” the MP 38) in terms of role and tactics within the German Army in the Second World War. For this we look at German Army regulations, reports, tables of organization and equipment and also the weapons themselves. We look at the relation of the MP 40 submachine-gun to the Panzerwaffe, but also as its use by the infantry, particularly the squad leader, platoon leader and company commander.
Disclaimer: I was invited by the Wehrkundliche Sammlung Schloss Ebelsberg.
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» SOURCES «
OKH: H.Dv. 130/2a: Die Schützenkompanie. Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Infanterie - Heft 2a. Verlag „Offene Worte“, Berlin, Germany, 16. März 1941.
BArch, RHD 8/261: D 167/1: Maschinenpistole 40. Beschreibung, Handhabungs- und Behandlungsanleitung. September 1942.
Reibert: Der Dienstunterricht im Heere: Ausgabe für den Schützen der Schützenkompanie. E. S. Mittler & Sohn: Berlin, 1940.
Wettstein, Adrian E.: Die Wehrmacht im Stadtkampf 1939-1942. Ferdinand Schöningh: Paderborn, Germany.
Buchner, Alex: Das Handbuch der deutschen Infanterie 1939-1945; Gliederung - Uniformen, Bewaffnung - Ausrüstung, Einsätze. Podzun-Pallas: Friedberg in Hessen, Germany, 1987.
von Heygendorff: Die Schützenkompanie des Infanterieregiments. Das Kommandobuch von Carl Siwinna. 25. neubearbeite und erweiterte Auflage. Mars-Verlag Carl Siwinna: Berlin, Germany, 1941.
Der Feuerkampf der Schützenkompanie (Schulgefechtsschießen und Gefechtsschießen) nach den neuesten Grundsätzen der Feuertaktik. 2. (Kriegs-)Auflage. Verlage „Offene Worte“: Berlin, Germany, 1940.
BArch, RH 1/1543: H.Dv. 299/4a: Ausbildung und Einsatz der Panzergrenadierkompanie a (Entwurf). OKH, General der Schnellen Truppen, 8. Januar 1943.
BArch, RH 1/1886: OKH: H.Dv. 470/1: A. Leitsätze für die Erziehung und Ausbildung im Heere. B. Ausbildungsziele für die Einzelausbildung der Panzertruppe. Verlag „Offene Worte“: Berlin, Germany, Berichtiger Nachdruck 1940 (2. Oktober, 1938)).
Lidschun, Reiner; Wollert, Günter: Infanteriewaffen. Illustrierte Enzyklopädie der Infanteriewaffen aus aller Welt bis 1945. Parragon: Bath, UK, o.J.
BArch, RH 1/260: OKH: H.Dv. g 92: Handbuch für den Generalstabsdienst im Kriege. Teil II. Reichsdruckerei: Berlin, 1939.
TsAMO: F 500, Op. 12480, D 137: Sturmgeschütz-Schule Lehrstab: Merkblatt - Die Geschützbedienung, Burg b. M., Oktober 1943.
Niehorster, Leo W. G.: German World War II Organizational Series. Volume 1/I: Mechanized Army and Waffen-SS Units (1st September 1939). Dr. Leo W.G. Niehorster: Hannover, Germany, 1990 (1988).
Niehorster, Leo W. G.: German World War II Organizational Series. Volume 1/II-1. 1st and 2nd Welle Army Infantry Divisions (1 September 1939). The Military Press: Buckinghamshire, UK, 2007 (2006).
Handrich, Dieter: Sturmgewehr 44. Vorgänger, Entwicklung und Fertigung der revolutionärsten Infanteriewaffen. 2. überarbeitete und erweiterte Auflage. dwj Verlags-GmbH: Blaufelden, Germany, 2016.
#MP40 #SMG #MP38
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>> ERRORS & CORRECTIONS
Yes
Interesting would be to compare the different production times between the weapons and countrys
Didn't the fallschirmjaeger use the mp for normal infantry a lot?
@Military History Visualized
If in Germany (1933-1945) tanks were called Panzerkampfwagen, their short name would have been Pz.Kpfw. [As this is a combination of two words (Panzer & Kampfwagen)]. Interestingly, in your video about the stopgap, during the design of the Pz. II, I noticed, that in documents it was referred as the „Pz.Kpf.Wg.“, meaning, that there were three words originally, because tank development was obviously something new, later, those last two words would be combined for something else, maybe for an unarmored yet still fighting vehicle. I am just trying to ask and debunk this myth: is that MP 40, M.P. 40, MP-40 or as I would suggest, „Mp. 40“? The same thing could be applied to the Karabiner 98 K., Maschinengewehr, Flugabwehrkanone (Fla.K.), Panzerabwehrkanone (Pa.K.), Kampfwagenkanone (Kw.K.) and many other words in different languages. Seriously, grammar matters. People can't even decide whether it is (let's say) 75 mm, 8,8cm, (I don't give a thing about your culture, I write with a comma), or 76,2-mm.
Bernhard, I think you should do a video about literature and grammar. We would like to hear how strict, clear and correct it was back in the day, especially in Austria. I was born in the capital of Georgia, Tbilisi, (my blood and parents are Armenian, though, this is what mixed nationality is, I guess.) and even 6-10 years ago the education was better than what it is in Europe nowadays. No offense, but I live in god-damned Italy now and forgive me for this word, there AIN'T an education!
@Military History Visualized
Do not say „Tiger I“ or the «Königstiger», it's unofficial and wrong. The full names are the Panzerkampfwagen Tiger Ausführung E or B. I believe it is one program and that the tanks differ only because of the order to simply upgrade their characteristics. Also, later during the production, the V would be removed and finally become „Panzerkampfwagen Panther“. Thank you! I am waiting for another Tank vs. Tank comparison. :)
Petition for Military History Visualized to do a crossover episode with ForgottenWeapons where they go to the firing range and shoot off some MP40s
I second this motion.
3rd-ed.
Everyone deserves to rain super accurate fire from a MP40
Yes!
Interesting thought . Both are high quality channels and certainly can contribute to each other.
Must have been the Ausführung A that took a 32 round clip, because Clint Eastwood's MP-40 in Where Eagles Dare fired a 1,152 round magazine.
@chris younts Ah a legendary weapon from Bethesda
that is a fun movie..with the anachronistic helicopter and all...thought to be fair he does reload the mp40 multiple times, when he first takes out the the group of men coming down the hallway he seems to empty his mag and then ducks back into cover, you cant see the gun but you can see him look down and his arm motions seem to indicate he is reloading the gun, gets back up and begins firing again, in the next reload lull the germans use that to move up the mg42, in the airfield scene you can see him and mary reload at least once each. Though I must say any weapon he touches seems to receive a special blessing of increase in damage, range and accuracy. All hail his holy touch.
In the movie War and Remembrance they also used a 1,152 round magazine
ua-cam.com/video/lJEz3ZGO-nI/v-deo.html
it's the mp40 from Rise of the Triad
That’s a lie. Eastwood had the special unlimited ammo variant of the MP40.
“...I’m not Ian from Forgotten Weapons...”
Things wise men say to preface their video.
I love how every ww2 movie from the 50s to the 90s has every german unit armed with only mp 40s and they all have stormtrooper aim.
LOL True even tho the Kar98k was the standard infantry weapon of the German army
AWC The more compact MP-40 (the stock is rarely extended) is easier to film with. It is also more recognizable and automatic weapons generally make for better films.
When the MP40 was the most accurate and in general best SMG of the war too, Hollywood continues to be awful
Plus fact that soldiers armed with MP40 still have ammo pouches for Mauser rifle - at least in some movies.
@@88porpoise true. In movies the stock is rarely extended. If u look at historical images or clips however it was nearly always extended during operations.
The “I’m not Ian from forgotten weapons” has migrated from Garand Thumb to MHV
Garand Thumb is a vain narcissist who puts his weapon handling at 1.25x speed to try and show off for civilians.
@@rollingrock3480 I don't even like the guy, but I can plainly see that is complete bullshit. He doesn't do anything that isn't realistically possible for someone with a bit of training and experience
God damnit I love the strange crossovers in the UA-cam history & gun communities.
Something to add here regarding the term "Machine Pistol". A major part of the reason the term isn't used in English speaking countries is that most of those nations first real experience with USING such weapons was with the Thompson. Auto Ordinance, the company founded to market and sell the gun by Thompson, coined the term "Submachine Gun" as a marketing ploy to get people interested in what was seen as a strange, man portable and comparatively underpowered automatic weapon when placed alongside a proper belt or strip fed machine gun commonly associated with the great war.
Makes sense a sub machine gun sounds better than a machine pistol, which just sounds like a semi automatic pistol
@@brandoncorona9312 Well, a machine pistol is a weapon not bigger than a service pistol capable of full-auto fire. So weapons like the M712-type Mauser C96, the Czech Scorpion, Stechkin APS, the Beretta 93R or the Glock 18. In German we call that a Reihenfeuerpistole.
Hey, it's Many Miles Away! Fancy seeing you here (keep up the streams btw!).
Many Miles Away Great point! In Swedish the term is “kulsputepistol”, best translated as machinegun-pistol (literally bullet-sprayer-pistol).
Fun fact: The hungarians use géppisztoly which is the direct translation of the Machine pistol. It shows how big influence the german and austro armies had on them.
"The primary German infantry tactic was to Rush B using the MP 40 w/ drum magazine & aperture sight."
WW2 just wasn't the same when they added weapon customization
>Me as Elite/regular assault class in Red orchestra 2
sick world at war reference.
The MP5 is the spiritual successor of this weapon and it fulfills the same role it had during the World War II days.
One of the predecessors, the MP 18, apparently had a drum magazine. However, the MP 35 did not, so I guess it's less of a good idea than originally thought or something.
Movies made me believe these were way more common than they actually were
Movies would also have you believe that red armies have guns for every soldier.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 I think you mean movies would have you believe that muh unarmed asiatic hordes 1 man gets the rifle the other man gets the magazine bullshit.
@@ruckzuruck7039 Yep Hollywood also told us the Red Army had no tactics besides the suicide charge and that barrier troops killed countless of their own who refused to do it
I am looking at you Enemy at the Gates
Killian Krummel Yeah, they had room to work with considering that the Soviets were still relatively uncaring about the normal conditions of their soldiers but they certainly didn’t do any of the dumbass shit EatG portrays.
According to Hollywood Hitler issued more MP 40s and 38s to the partisans than delivered to his own forces, and the British STENS and Americans Thompsons provided to "the Resistance."
Wait! It was in the regulations to shout Hurra!?
BTW: a story from my grandfather was that he was in combat and his MP40 failed and got him nearly killed. In anger he tossed it away and picked up a PPSH41 and used that for the rest of the mission, but then he was either not willing or capable of going to retrieve his MP40 and thus he got into trouble...
He was a funny guy, but his vivid depictions of WWII gave me nightmares as a kid...
Was he Steiner in "Cross Of Iron"?
Judging by the PPSH, your grandfather fought on the Eastern front. Sorry to tell you but more likely than not, he committed war crimes.
@@GeraltofRivia22 I dunno about that. What I can tell you is that he's seen some nasty sh!t over there. His first war experience was meeting up German troops who just committed a war crime (burning civilians alive for supporting the Soviets). Then they reconquered land and found their former comrades nailed alive to walls, flayed alive, etc. That's what happens when a front line goes back and forth...
He was shot in the outskirts of Stalingrad and sent home, which most definitely saved his life.
Then he got sent towards Normandie and was ordered to destroy civilian infrastructure to delay the allied advance. That earned him some extra time in prison. However, before he surrendered, he was hit by a plane dropped bomb. As insane as it sounds he claimed to have continued fighting until he saw a chance of surrender (he didn't trust the unit they were fighting, thus they ran off and surrendered to a different unit). Fact is that he had lost most of his hearing and his sense of smell due to that bomb and he carried multiple foreign bodies from that blast which were inoperable. One of the fragments was lodged in his brain! You could actually see his scar on the head and after his death it was confirmed due the cremation.
I don't know if he really was able to continue fighting with such impossible injuries, but fact is he survived injuries that would have killed probably 9/10 people...
Regarding war crimes, he was pretty vocal about what he thought about the German war crime and he did have a fetish for Slavic women. After he was released, he did travel multiple times to the Soviet Union despite the cold war and all the horrible things that had happened!
I won't say that he would have disobeyed orders to commit a war crime, but he wouldn't have done it out of free will, except perhaps chasing after skirts (the politest way I can say it). I don't really suspect him of doing it, but he did cheat on his wife quite often and wasn't very picky apparently. So, this is the most likely crime I could imagine him doing.
Pretty sure most Germans tend to pick up PpSh over any of their own weapons when they get the chance. I think this video explains why that is because submachine guns in the Wehrmacht were actually uncommon and most of Germans were using rifles. I'd pick submachine guns over rifles anytime. But then again, and I am just speculating, there might not have been a need to supply MP40s to most German infantry because their tactics is to use machineguns during an assault anyway.
@@impalabeeper I read some technical comparisons years back which concluded that the ugly PPSH was a superior battlefield weapon to the pretty MP38/40. It was indestructible, an imbecile could use it, and it carried about twice as many rounds.
FYI: I was in the U.S. Army early '80s, trained on M-60A3. Complete with M-3A1. I don't know if I would want to have my life depend on it, but I was fascinated by its simplicity.
You didn't have anything to worry about with regards to depending your life on it. The only part that, realistically, could break would be the safety latch on the dust cover. And even then you just carry the gun bolt closed. Open bolt submachine guns are extremely reliable
Edit: Oh yeah, the sear can also wear away and you get runaway gun. I imagine field weapons were taken better care of compared to training guns in that regard
Same here,19E, Ft. Knox 81.
The M3 I had at Ft Hood worked perfectly at the range, but the Knox training guns were worn out and jammed easily.
Thx for the memory jog.
👍🍀❤✌🇺🇸
@@hvymtal8566 they can be unreliable (see sten and austen), it is just harder to screw up, but it happens
@@luansagara Might just be from squeezing the magazine.
Grease gun had a habit of continuing to fire when you released the trigger. Yeah, training weapons got beat to death. I had way more trust in my M1911...
11:44 "during the assault, the squad leader pulls the whole squad forward by his personal example"
How to use submachinegun: Be an hero.
That's what an NCO is supposed to be.
@@redcat9436 NCO after getting gun: Sweet, i could totally solo a platoon with this
NCO after reading manual: Jesus Christ and a dozen sidekicks, i'm drunk and it says stick beside the MG42, right?
... be a* hero ...
@@SpiritualFox Sticking beside an mg-42 would of gotten him killed real quick. Those things are noisy as hell it's basically just telling everyone he look at me shoot me!
@@einundsiebenziger5488 not in written English, sorry. You use an for any vowel and additionally h. You only say a hero colloquially in speech.
When you say the English "Thousand", it is easy to pronounce it like the German "Tausend". But if you stick your tongue slightly past your teeth when you say "tausend" you will get the "TH" sound on the first syllable, making the pronunciation more accurate for English. Likewise, with the word "vehicle", if you put the emphasis on the first syllable, as in "VE-hicle", rather than "ve-HIC-le", it sounds more naturally English. Finally, the word 'recon' in English puts the emphasis on the first syllable: "RE-con", which is unusual since the root word is pronounced "re-CON-assiance', but nevertheless the shortened word is pronounced 'RE-con' in popular usage.
Your videos are excellent and interesting and informative and I enjoy them very much. My intent with this post is friendly; I would want the same if I were speaking German and a friend were giving me tips on how to speak it more accurately, and no offense is intended.
I really like your use of the military regulations. Very informative. The video shows how thorough and completely your research has been
Thank you for another great piece of military history.
Danke, mein Bruder!!! Very informative & enjoyable.
MP-40 was the weapon of choice for Soviet reconnaissance squads in tactical or operation intelligence departments. MP-40 was much lighter than PPSh-41 and availability of ammunition behind enemy lines made this weapon a valuable trophy.
Sergei Borodin, The ability to use amunition scavenged from the enemy makes some sense as a criteria for certain behind enemy lines operations. Though it would depend on the exact mission. If you do recon and observation for example, and you had to expend so much amunition that you need to scavenge, your mission allready failed because you were never suposed to get detected and forced to defend yourself in the first place..
Not sure where you got the information about the MP-40 being much lighter. Afaik the PPSH weighted about 3.6 kg empty and the MP-40 about 3.9 kg.
Could it be, that your source listed the PPSH's weight loaded and the MP-40's empty?
@mark bushnell I've read that many Germans preferred the reliability and high rate of fire of the PPSh-41, while Russians enjoyed the better accuracy and quieter operation of the MP-40 (apparently the drum magazine was noisy when jostled). Grass is greener, perhaps?
@mark bushnell Well, any SMG, is better than Bolt-action rifle in close quarters. If you think almost anyone else had bolt-actions, Hell yeah you're taking anything that has more forepower.
What I'm saying is, Germans were not turning their MP-40s in for PPŠ-41s, but rather scavenging some extra firepower.
There's also the benefit of having the same firing report as the enemy if you screw up and have to shoot your way out of trouble.
@@briandamage5677 Grass is greener and not every soldier traded MP40 for PPSh-41. Some must have traded their K98k for a Beutewaffe.
12:56 Wehrmacht: Inspires contempt for death
MHV 2020: I wonder what the German military thought about the work/life balance
If they were allowed to, they probably left their heroic officer or NCO to despise death on his own, like the Dutch/Belgian forces in "Sharpe" when the Prince of Orange orders a glorious charge...
They wanted to balance having their soldiers doing work with having them staying alive.
It was a hard balance to hit since the work of a soldier is detrimental to life.
Stalingrad is an example of horrible work/life balance while Operation Barbarossa was good work/life balance.
Interesting presentation and makes sense. I was an infantry officer and weapons like Mp 40 are not that useful for infantry except in close combat because of the very short range, low calibre, lack of penetration and high inaccuracy. Certainly not the go-to weapon of the movies.
There is a danger in issuing a distinctive weapon to team leaders because the enemy will notice and target the leader so I wonder what soldier got the mp 40 in practice at platoon level. Good weapon for recce elements for example. I notice the driver got the mp40 in vehicles.
The Ka 98 was an excellent if dated rifle. Maybe you could do a short presentation on that too some time. Thanks.
Great comment.
@Mialisus Nope, they just had stripes on the back: vertical for an "O" because it resembled a 2Lt/1Lt bar; and horizontal for an NCO.
last time I was this early we were using MP18s
I was surprised to see a video about a simple small machine gun but I'm glad you made it. I didn't realize that I had questions about it until you started answering them. Great job, many thanks!
"I am not Ian from forgotten weapons so I will not give you a in depth breakdown" Bravo mein freund. Love to see unique content, I am going to subscribe for certain!
Now it would be interesting to know how they dealed with the other submashineguns like the MP28, MP34, MP35/1 and Erma MP35.
All of those were used by the German army or Luftwaffe at some point early in the war.
Allthow many of were given too ss or second line units as far as I know.
I think it would be really interesting to see how the German army used them generally
I remember reading the ammo used report from the polish campaign and was shocked that 9mm was the most used cartridge by far, even though 8mm Mauser was used in MG, Vehicle MG, Rifle. This video adds the information how many mp38 where issued as well as pistols and these numbers doesn´t help much to explain the huge amount of 9mm used. So i think you are absolutely right, it would be interesting cause as far i can tell there must have been alot more simply cause of the amount of ammo used.
It would be interesting to find out also whether the MP28 and MP40 had magazines that were interchangeable with each other. Because the Sten gun can use the MP40 magazines (which the Sten magazine is patterned after) and the MP28 magazines
I got a theory:
A read a ton of organizational stuff in random comertial books, saddly no German archives in Brazil :P , and they state a lot about germans using simmilar standard issue weapons in place of the local produced:
From classicall 7th panzer division using only PZ38T's in pz3 role.
To some Welle divisions I think, 4th and so forth using czech and polish first rate rifles and the later welles using lower grade polish and czech rifles for garrison and 2nd line duties.
So my point is, maybe they just give MP38 and 40 to the panzers , 1st line infantry and elites like pzgrens and fallschirmjagers, and the guys from later welles use Ermas, MP28,34,35, polish ermas, non standard thompsons, and any other smg you may find invading random coutries in europe...
BTW I know for sure (some osprey book) that MAS smgs goes to people defending france using french rifles.
Great video. Supplements well with the more technical overview of Forgotten Weapons. Please keep up the great work, I really enjoy watching your videos!
Though, a small remark: I would translate "macht ihn mit [...] geschwungenem Spaten nieder" as "knocks them down [...] wielding the spade" or "knocks them down [...] swinging the spade" as I think that "geschwungen" means the motion, as in "ein Schwert schwingen" not the shape of the item.
From what I read the Fallschirmjaeger regiments had not only two LMGs in infantry squad but also a lot more SMGs than typical infantry squad, at least few people from squad had them apart from leader. I also remember reading that Jaeger divisions had so many SMGs allocated that they created whole squads entirely equipped with SMGs + 1 LMG. I couldn't find any exact tables or more info about it but maybe you could find something more. If there's something to find about SMG tactics then it's probably those Jaeger divisions, or the Sturmpioniere.
didn't look into Fallschirmjäger since those are Luftwaffe.
For Jäger someone pointed out a TOE, yet, I need to find out if it was MP40 or already the MP43/1, since the date of the TOE & the troop trial are rather close. Sturmpioniere was another guess, I had only 2 pamphlets on Sturmpioniere (and I think that was pretty much all I could find last time at the archives) and they did mention the rifle and hand grenade, but both were rather early war.
12:26 the *buggler* sounds the signal "forward fast."
🎵The boogie woogie buggler boy from company B🎶
A notification of Military History Visualized about infantry tactics. Today was a good day.
Glorius day
As someone who's learning German, I love the quotations laid out in both languages. Certainly helping with my vocabulary, I'm sure "Todesverachtung" comes up all the time in casual conversation.
Although it was listed as being for the driver, I would imagine a lot of Panzergrenidier squads would take the extra MP40 and leave a rifle behind especially if they were expecting close combat. It would do a lot more good in the hands of the infantry than strapped to the sides of a vehicle, and that close quarter firepower would be awfully tempting
Not Ian.... Bro love your sense of humour... Keep it up. ❤️❤️
As a 10 year old on the UK many years ago now
I was looking through a book on guns and saw a mp40 and was so impressed by it I made one in woodwork class with folding stock and all
I still have it today
More fascinating history and content. These detailed and informative series are immensely helpful. 5 - star, 100%, top notch.
I fired the 'grease gun' when I was in the service, which fires a 45 cal round. The velocity of the round is so slow, that if you flick your eyes along the fire path, you can see the rounds traveling through the air.
yeah, me too, although not in service, was quite fun too shoot it. Also it was inside, so likely easier to spot.
Still one of the best looking SMG’s ever manufactured.
I used to feel that way and thought the PPSK had a very strange muzzle break. After watching them perform side by side the Makarov cartridge decided the winner
@@oceanhome2023 The 9mm won in the end.
Love the line about work/life balance. Thanks for the excellent content.
Military History + forgotten weapons - best duo ever
was not expecting a forgotten weapons ref lol Hey man great video.
Excellent video, as always. I have been looking for evidence of extended use of SMGs in the WWII German army(we use "maskinpistol" in Norwegian as well, though the American term submachine gun, indicates a machine gun with smaller than regular ammo. The British used the term Machine Carbine at least through WWII. Machine pistol denotes a pistol that is capable of select fire, like the Mauser Schnellfeuer, or Glock 18, usually with the ability to attach a shoulder stock.). The only KStN I have seen that has more SMGs at the squad level is the Luftwaffe FJ company. It shows 2 MP38/40 and 2 MG34 per squad. Since all long arms like rifles and machine guns were dropped in separate weapons containers, it's understandable that they wanted a bit more firepower, beyond pistols and grenades, ready to deploy after an airborne landing. At least until the squad had gotten to their weapons containers. Beyond that, there is always anecdotes of units using more SMGs in certain situations, like in city fighting. I know the German army captured a lot of Soviet SMGs, and converted them from 7.62x25mm Tokarev to 9x19mm. It would not be unlikely that units sometimes had an unofficial pool of SMGs to be used for close assault, and patrol work.
have you looked at volksgrenadier oob, from what i have read they had specialist squads entirely equipped with SMGs
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Yes, they even had 2 full platoons in each VG company. These were meant to be armed with the MP-44, while the last platoon would be armed with rifles and 2 light machine guns per squad.
Enjoyed this very much. How about one on the Potato Masher?
Interesting as usual, Bernhard. I gained a bit of insight as to the possibilities why my grandfather, the driver of a Universal Carrier, used a captured German "Schmeisser" (as he called it). He only told me he "liked it better" than what he had been issued.
If he was originally issued something like a Sten gun the MP40 might have been an upgrade, especially in terms of user comfort and overall fit and finish.
Nice to see one of my favorite UA-camrs in the comments of one of my other favorites; even if I'm a couple years late.
I'm a big fan of Real Time History; loved the recent video on the Schleswig-Holstein Wars and can't wait to see what's next!
@@Jon.A.Scholt Thanks!
Its pretty cool to see how accurate steel division 2 is in terms of squad equipment. If its to be believed 100%, the mp40 was also used extensively by the military police (feldgendarmerie), the recon units (aufklarung), as well as the reit-jagers (light infantry). I would love to see a similar video for the mp44 and its use and organization.
excellent video. really really well done. informative and well executed. thank you
Love your videos keep up the good work!
You have a wonderful channel. I enjoy your presentation and information. Thank you very much.
slightly related, do you know of any German army regulations on the Nahkampfmesser? Specifically who exactly would've been issued it? All I can find thusfar is that it was issued as a front-line weapon/utility knife, similar to the Finnish Puukko, and that contrary to the modern collector name of "boot knife" it was seldom worn in the boot, and more often worn tucked into smocks, jackets, or equipment webbing. Though personally, the boot is a far better way to carry it if one is wearing Jackboots, though from what I gather it's issuance coincided with the issuance of lowboots, but I haven't been able to find a single concrete date so far, as originals are often unmarked.
na sorry, never looked into it or came across it. Might cover it though at one point.
Hervorragender Beitrag. Vielen Dank hierfür.
I love these kinds of vids~
thanks for another entertaining batch of research and insight.
Thanks for a once more excellent video!
As always great vid! 🙌
Keep it up! 😃
Another good one, at least a dozen tokens of "vayheeckl" ;-) On a more serious note: " mit dem ... geschwungenen Spaten" (11:58) is "by wielding a spade" not so much "a curved spade."
yeah, as noted in corrections (see pinned comment).
my buddy owns a MP-38 his grandfather was issued in the German army when he was conscripted in 1945
There seems to be surprisingly few of them. In the Finnish infantry there were two SMGs per platoon in 1939, one per squad in 1941, two in 1942 and three in 1943 - thogh it naturally took time for the production to catch up. When needed SMGs could also be concentrated and some companies had them for most men.
The total production of MP40 was only about a million when allies produced over ten million SMGs.
In case people wanted to know, here is the Forgotten Weapons video on the MP38/MP40 - ua-cam.com/video/cdQhO8FtY7c/v-deo.html
One thing that should be noted across Ian's (Gun Jesus) videos is his exploration of weapons like sub-machine guns (SMGs) to those that are what are considered 2nd line troops. SMGs are not particularly accurate except at very close range. Many of these weapons are not select fire, and automatic fire is much less accurate than semi-automatic fire. Automatic fire is much better at enemy suppression than actually killing folks. If you want to find a pretty funny video about this, In-Range TV did a video comparing the automatic fire of the M14 vs. G3 vs. FN-FAL. The best description out of that video is that going to automatic fire on those hand held, rifle caliber weapons....is that I press the trigger and the world goes to grey.
Both the MP38 and MP40 have pistol caliber cartridges. That means they have significant bullet drop (a 9mm parabellum bullet drops about 1 foot over 100 yards) at any significant range. The reason to use them comes from their handniess. A Car 98K is over 43 inches long. A MP40 is just over 24" with stock folded and 32" with stock unfolded. This represents a big difference when trying to exit a vehicle.
When you compare the barrel length of a 9mm pistol vs the barrel length of the MP40 you will see that the MP40 is almost 3 times longer and this should increase the muzzle velocity and make it a more powerful and easier to aim
I like they style of this video... the quotation from specialist literature, your (Austraian?) accent, the info graphics... Well done! Very entertaining and quite informative.
(Übrigens spreche ich ein besseres Deutsch, als Englisch ;-
Wow, thank you!
and yes Upper Austrian accent
This is great idea. I have already seen the mechanics of the gun explained totally in every regard. This is the first time I have seen how the MP40 was used in the tactical or operational context. Great vid
I wonder how much distinction in German regulations was there between Mp 28, Mp 34, Mp 35 and the like, compared to the 38. Was the 38/40 considered a distinct weapon from those? How were those older types issued out? The magazine feeding theory definitely may have something to it, as the older weapons were all side-feeding, and much easier to fire prone.
MP-28 and MP-34s where definetly used by SS-infantry units as early as Poland 1939, I have seen a couple of pictures of them being used by squad leaders of the Das Rech regiment and SS Heimwehr Danzig. They also seems to have been used by Brandenburg commandos in 1939.
@@wotan58 Yes I have seen similar photos, but I was more curious about how the army handled them. They seem to have had some quantity on hand, but how they were used is vague to me.
Propably not that differently. Only difference would be that they are "non-standard" and issued as such. Finnish manuals, and from what I have seen German manuals do not distinguish between weapon models in tactical sense other than their roles (rifle, pistol, Submachine Gun, etc.). Only real difference there could be that vehicle crews would propably not be issued these, since they are rather bulky (Then again, finnish tank crews carried Suomi KP/31:s).
@@blackore64 In that case, it may not be surprising at all that there was no tactical doctrine for the Mp 38. Other than a vague notion from the designers and army procurement that it was intended for vehicle crews.
Very cool. You mentioned that while the MP40 didn't have a lot of specific tactics, the Stg44 did? Mind covering that next?
You had me at "Maschinenpistole."💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
In extended urban combat situations (like stalingrad), where German units specially equipped with smgs? Or did they have to fight in close quarters, in houses, ect, with bolt action rifles? I've read that some soviet units were wholly equipped with smgs at stalingrad. The side equipped with smgs would have had a huge advantage in stalingrad type street fighting. I've looked many places for info on this and haven't seen any. If you could answer that would be appreciated.
Side-loading magazines are better for going prone, but extremely problematic in room-clearing
Very interesting and informative video. I have the following queries, in case you might consider addressing them in later videos: 1) Prior designs of submachine guns seen in use by the Wehrmacht, such as the MP28, MP34, EMP etc. - where they private purchase weapons or issued by the military in a certain fashion? 2) Until the invasion of Crete, the modus operandi of the Fallschimjäger did not dictate a different disposition in weaponry than the regular infantry. What do the sources say on the alleged improvement of FJ weaponry and procedures after company Merkur and do these procedures and changes affect the distribution of MP's only, or of other weapons also?
you should make a video about the STG 44 and its tactics!
1:00 this was a very similar situation with regards to the M1A1 and M1 carbine with the Marines in the Pacific theater as the war progressed
Great vid.
You might look into how the Fallschirmjäger used the MP 38/40. Seems like they naturally used them in large numbers.
Keep up the good work.
I was under the impression that at least early on, the story was pretty much the same - only squad leaders had them. They could jump with them, but the regular paratroops only jumped with grenades and/or pistols, they had to find their weapon canisters to get K98s. Is that true?
@@wjlasloThe2nd : Yes, they didn't jump with their main weapons & I'm not sure they even jumped with grenades. On landing they would have to locate the Fallschirmjäger Abwurfbehälter (parachute containers) that had their weapons. One thing to remember there are pre-Crete & post-Crete Fallschirmjäger. After Crete the Fallschirmjäger pretty much became just infantry, very few small scale airborne operations after that. Seems like I've read somewhere that at Crete, 25% of Fallschirmjäger troops were equipped with MP 38/40's. I looked in the couple books I have, but found nothing. The only reference to it I've found online is on Wikipedia & don't give it much credence as there is no source. I have seen that 25% assertion (right, wrong or indifferent) somewhere else before.
Interesting subject.
Outstanding video and presentation
Thank you very much!
What about the predecessors to the MP 38, like MP 35 or MP 18/28? They have side-mounted magazines. Were any of them distributed among the infantry before the MP 40 replaced them?
9:27 Also for 1941 rifle squad template, each Soviet squad was intended to have 2 SMGs (in adition to 6 riflemen and a MG crew of 2 [with the loader having also a rifle]).
NCOs quite often carried the SVT-40 self-loading rifle - these were rather delicate rifles that needed looking after and it was probably reckoned a corporal or sergeant would do that, as opposed to the average private.
I read somewhere that the Wehrmacht used large quantities of Soviet submachine guns (e.g., PPSh-41) captured during Barbarossa. Is there research to support this? If so, would captured submachine guns have augmented the MP38s/40s issued to frontline units?
11:56 doesn‘t „geschwungen“ in this context mean „swinging“ the spade, rather than the spade itself being curved, „geschwungen“?
Would be cool to see a video where you talk about the main rifles used by each major participant of ww2. Most videos on youtube only focus on the quality of the weapon itself and not its tactics and logistical aspect.
The movie industry shows them differently, as you said, they are iconic. Do you know if they were used by special forces (The Dawns are Quiet Here) or for prisoner transport guards ( Von Ryan's Express)?
Awesome info!!! 💪🏻✌🏻
Finally some who talks about loadout and usage for the weapon who isnt talking about c.o.d.
Is there an initial holdover idea from late WW1 trench assault tactics? I wonder if there was an original concept which was based on the experience of the previous war and which ended up being poorly adapted to WW 2. After that they just tried to fit the weapons into wherever they would be most useful. Just an idea.
"Work life balance" Ha ha !
You are an excellent historian and also a bit of a joker. Nobody can comb through German documents and bring to life the details like you do. Keep up the good work.
12:47 "Work life balance" - that was great :)
Interesting, how about the squads in Jager Divisions? Weren't they primarily equipped with MP-40?
Excellent video, sir!
I was issued a _"kpist m/45b" (known as the Swedish K in America. A submachine gun which used the Swedish 9 mm m/39b ammo)_ when I did my service.
One time during an exercise I and my soldier under my command used our Swedish K as the regulation recommended use for machine guns; alternating fire and then finishing by emptying a magazine completely (36 rounds) at the enemy.
pretty much all Swedish military doctrine at the time was based on German tactics from the Second World War.
Oddly enough, my financially limited education had been a perfect fit in Ukraine. Everyone fights, everyone digs! Armor, artillery and aviators were our main threats. So we digged, were heavily armed with grg m/48, pvpjäs 1110, ksp m/58 (FN MAG), AT4's and shit loads of AT mines
After our training, our troopa air defense had shot down everything within a kilometer distance with only FN MAG:s and G3/AK4.
We also became kings of MOUT, "military operations urban terrain" as well as demolition, field works and delaying combat.
_edit_
I and some of the soldiers could make a head shot with our kpist m/45b with only iron sights at 300 meters.
A very good video on a topic that everyone assumes knows quite well, however it turns out it was not correctly depicted in games, even in a bit older ones like Return to Castle Wolfenstein it still remains as main infantry weapon and the Mauser, especially with Optics added is depicted as a weapon for Snipers only.
Is there any value at all in looking for sources that interviews Wehrmacht veterans? Wouldn't those men have insights into how the weapon was used, and could corroborate what we see in official documentation?
Most of them are dead, you have to find them, setup appointments and then it was decades ago. It can be done, but I don't have the time for it, also I am not a people's person. Also the technicalities we discuss were more often than not completely irrelevant for them.
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Thank you for the reply, and I understand completely. I was more pondering if another historian had done this work in the decades after WW2.
I know Dr. Roman Töppel did quite a lot of interviews, some of that I used in the Tank Ramming video.
A couple thoughts. Perhaps you should look at WWI German publications for information about SMG/ MP doctrine. Also, it’s my understanding that the Fallshirmjager were originally intended to be issued the weapon. I believe that the Fallshirmjager were technically under the control of the Luftwaffe, so perhaps there were manuals containing some kind of doctrine in Luftwaffe records. Lastly, why do you assume that tactics /doctrine regarding the use of SMG/MPs can only be evidenced when entire units were equipped with it? In WWI, infantry units moved from a concept where everyone was a rifleman, to a combined arms approach where light machine guns were integrated with rifles, hand and rifle grenades, and mortars. It doesn’t seem far fetched to envision MP use by NCOs as part of the combined arms approach
With all this talk of how vehicle crews were equipped, do you think you could over the procedures for what a tank crew was supposed to do if their vehicle was disabled? Obviously this depends on whether or not the crew is involved in a pitched battle.
Excellent Info - Thank You
I’ve never seen your videos before.
You’re great.
Yeah, the MP38 was issued in low numbers early in the war
But didn't they had the MP-28 and other early war MP-18 derivatives instead of it, or did they recall those instantly once the MP-38 was introduced? (Which i find it hard to believe)
?
@@MilitaryHistoryVisualized Just wondering about this, since it seems unlikely for me that the Wehrmacht, especially after their Stormtrooper tactic innovation would have such a limited amount of SMG's at the start of the war
So i do wonder what their SMG numbers were prior to the invasion of Poland, as the numbers documented are of the MP38, but not en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_34.
Or this
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP35
Or any other derivative
I have no idea.
You may not be in from forgotten weapons but it sure would be cool to see you and gun Jesus do a collaboration some day.
If the tank crews only had one MP-40 - what did the rest of the crew carry for self defence outside their main weapon - the tank? For sure not the K-98, so were they relegated to the P-08? I for sure would not like to do guard duty while laagering, reconnaissance or evaquating a damaged vehicle under fire with just a P-08 knowing there might be enemy infantry around.
I'm remembering that the Spanish army in the Melilla war (1909-1912) started introducing a new kind of ammo for pistols after several complains within the officer corps (namely, that the effective range of the standart issue pistols was inferior to the requirements in the battlefield), namely the "9mm Long", which was later used as main ammo for all Spanish submachine guns like those in the Star line (Si-35, similar to the MP-18, and Z-45, licensed version of the MP-40) or the ASTRA line.
What about the weapons used by the MPs? Are they using rifles or the MP40? I suppose since range is negligible, they would be issued with MP40s since the volume of fire is better at dispersing crowds, but I'd like to hear it from the experts.
As a Bundeswehr Tank Gunner it is no surprise to me that the MP38/40 was primarily used as a boar weapon for AMVs. In the Bundeswehr the SMGs are still issued to the Tank crews. For example we had the MP1 (Uzi) on our Leo1 in 1998.
And if you think about it, it becomes more obvious why. A SMG is far smaller than a standard rifle therefor it is a lot easier to free some space in a already cramped tank.
Could you do a role and tactics for the STG44?
Would you be able to do a video on the use of light vehicles like the sdkfz 222 or the 251 half-track? They're fascinating vehicles but most books focus on either infantry or tanks. I'd love to know more about how they were actually used and the extent to which they took part in combat. I remember reading that the 234 "puma" had it's armament reduced from 50mm to 20mm to prevent crews trying to attack tanks, but it kinda sounds made up.
Got to shoot one a few years ago! Pretty sweet SMG. Wish I had $30,000 and I would buy one haha
They are not that expensive
You can get one that's in the 500$ price range. It's not that great but meh it's a mp40
dunno what world you're living in where there are $500 mp40s in this day and age
$30,000 good God !
That's got to be a museum piece, Surely there are companies manufacturing replicas.
@@revantii Syria, maybe?
Love the firearm breakdowns
Huh, could the first quote imply that it was originally intended to be an infantry weapon, but the issues like difficulty of using prone, low power at range, low production numbers, etc. then convinced them to start giving them to the vehicle crews first?
Also, so are there examples of units or commanders requesting additional submachineguns after experience in the field, or units at some level being allocated "extra" smgs to optionally give to certain squads for tasks like urban combat? Or maybe a lot more MP 40s became available once the squad and platoon leaders died leading charges.
In most World War Two movies the MP 40 is the standard weapon of the Wehrmacht
Makes sense for a few reasons:
1) It is far more recognizable to your average viewer than a rifle. For most people, they couldn’t tell a Mauser from a Lee from a Mosin from a Garand visually in a film. But they can see a MP-40 and know those guys or Nazis or a Thompson and know they aren’t Nazis. And the MP-40’s recognition and notoriety goes all the way back to the war, when your random guy on the street could recognize a Nazi holding a “Schmeisser”.
2) Automatic weapons are often scarier or cooler than bolt action rifles in a film.
3) You will also notice that they rarely extend the stock in films. With the stock folded it is a little over half the length of a Kar98k which makes moving around easier and prevents framing issues or it getting in front of someone.
Real life:
Germans invade Poland on Horseback, with bicycles and stolen tractors pulling carts.
Movie: they come in armored APC and are protected by Panther and Tiger...
@@88porpoise I would also add, that I do believe there is a element of Retroactively applying our modern infantry doctrine to past, as in modern armies, every man carries an automatic weapon. I feel like this is most obvious in video games, where the MP-40 is just a WWII equivalent of AK-47.
What about fallschirmjaeger/luftwaffe ground troops? Or waffen ss? Same allotment/tactical use?
i don't know about them, but i do know the volksgrenadiers had entire squads equipped with SMGs.
Hey, unrelated to the current video, but do you think you'll ever go over Japanese WW2 generals? Everyone talks about the Japanese navy in WW2 but I can hardly find anyone caring about the army.
very interesting
is it possible to make such a in depth guide for the mg 42?
It's a similar to what happened with the m1 carbine. It was never meant to be a Frontline weapon... But for 2nd line cooks and drivers but once soldiers realized its potential they employed it however they needed.