@@oORoOFLOo You really need a critical mass of activated abilities that are color intensive for it to actually be relevant. Extremely more likely that uncounterability is more relevant. I don't even think it's debatable honestly.
@@savinobalducci6148 That's just kind of a natural human thing to do. Richard in particular seems to talk with a lot of tongue in cheek hyperbole, he's kind of grinning as he says a lot of things like that. Which, personally, I really like, I think he adds a fun, sometimes contrarian, flavor to the podcast.
"I gotta ask you then something Richard. So you don't like this in part because it can give your opponent's something" says Seth regarding patriarchs bidding.... I swore that was going to turn into a secret rendezvous jab
@@surfinggarchomp2820 Which i suspect is the ACTUAL reason he likes this and not Patriarch's Bidding rather than the given argument. You can politic with Secret Rendezvous, you can't with Patriarch's Bidding.
Isn't there a blue card that's banned in Commander because it lets two players draw their entire deck putting them both way ahead of the table? Obviously Secret Rendezvous isn't as good, but I think that shows there's clearly an advantage to grabbing an ally in a free-for-all
I love tribal decks, man. As someone that grew up with Yugioh, I have an appreciation for cards that directly syngergize with eachother on more levels than just rules text or even merely color identity.
harpy ladies didn't really synergise all that much initially, the first deck that really synergised well with themselves right out of the gate was probably gladiator beasts
Richard "it doesn't win you the game, this card sucks, eww Patriarchs bidding gives other people creatures too, spent your turn doing nothing" Also Richard "Secret Rendezvous hnnnngh, spending mana for 2 cards worth of advantage and giving someone 3, no finer play in the game" I love Richard and Crim for their crazy takes
I swear, Richard is playing 4D chess, where even when he’s not playing Magic he’s politicking, getting everyone to think he’s out of his mind with these goofy ass takes, so he can fly under the radar in game and stela wins. (*takes off tin foil hat*)
I think there are distinct differences here. Patriarch's bidding is more conditional and you can't control who is getting a benefit from it so you don't get any political benefit from it the way you could with secret rendezvous.
Received my foil-stamped playmat in the mail last week and I just have to say thank you! Without a doubt the most beautiful playmat I own and super stoked that is has all of your signatures :)
1:03:03 "TRIBAL Cards Richard!" "Field of the Dead is actually a SS Tribal support card because it lets you pivot your tribe" My sides hurt from laughing so much. I missed Richard.
For the Cavern of souls arguement. When running a tribal deck which is only what I run. You usually have 25-30 creatures of that tribe in the deck. Subtract lands that’s 30-40 other spells. This means almost have your spells have the ability to not be countered. I think cavern of Souls is S tier in ANY tribal deck.
It just depends on playgroup or style considering its price, i have specter and zombie tribal decks, one is a meme and the other is semi competitive, the only spells I care that much that would be countered are non-creature like Richard says. If I still had my Grixis Dragons deck, even then I'd start caring about cast my spells a bit more.
Agreed, half your spells are going to be potentially uncounterable. And the other half doesn't NEED to be cast with Cavern of Souls. Richard out here acting like CoS is the only land in his deck in these scenarios lol.
@@jayjayhooksch1 But the ones that will, like Priest of Titania, you *really don’t want to lose.* When the uncounterability matters, it really matters.
Counterspell is hands down my favorite tribal support card. Nothing synergizes with my deck better than protecting all my important tribal pieces, sometimes it can even protect my non tribal cards, must play in blue tribal decks 😂
Ikr? People need to wake up to the real tribal cards. I personally love to run smothering tithe in my tribal decks because it makes sure that I always have mana up for my counterspells that protect my tribal payoffs like timewarp.
Pyre of Heroes - really been enjoying it in my Giada angels deck. Going up your curve consistently and getting specific effects/creatures for the current board state has been very effective
I seriously considered it in Tovolar werewolves. Mix some utility humans in with your werewolves, and during the Day you can trade in your Bird Watcher for Halana and Alena, Timeless Witness, or Huntmaster of the Fells. Some utility wolf chains too.
Richard evaluates every card from a worst case scenario situation. We have someone in our playgroup who does this to the point they essentially only play "staples" and it drives me nuts.
Thank you, it was driving me insane the whole video. Someone hurt this dude, and he's traumatized from bad experiences playing tribal decks or something. Like, bro makes some serious non-arguments and doesn't even give the cards proper due. I'm surprised his cards weren't all D or F tier or something, cause he never explains why he gave them a higher rating than the lowest tiers.
I think its definitely fair questions to ask. But also aggravating. At the end of the day I want to make my werewolves potent, but also feel werewolfy. And just that is going to flavor my card choices. Vanquishers Banner? Seems fine for a tribe with a lot of cheap creatures. I do want to just go brrr casting elves, soldiers, or changelings. But not so good for clunky 4-5 drop werewolves where more of my cheap creatures are wolves. But Key to the City? Feels great there. Avabruck does have a Mayor, after all. And maybe, just maybe Ohran Frostfang over Toski, because the deathtouch on attacking goes super well with every other werewolf buff granting trample.
Glad to see the COD Father is back! I pulled a card from Dominaria United yesterday and immediately thought of you. Lol. "Love song of night and day" secret rendezvous vibes, and birds! 😂
I'm surprised they didn't mention Molten Echoes especially with the honorable mention of Mirror March. In a tribal deck it's a strict upgrade at 4 mana. I'd argue even better than Reflections of Littjara (which I love) since the copies have haste. Still have to watch for the legend rule but its a very solid card in any tribal with red.
I think Cavern is clearly an S or A. However, for 70$, I think the 'value for money' is poor. Your deck gets significantly better if you buy like 3-4 fetches/shocks for 70$.
for sure, the only reason you'd score it lower than an A in tribal EVER is due to the actual cost of the card. If it was a .25c card there's no way you wouldn't see just about every single tribal deck run it
Seth, Secluded Courtyard is NOT literally the same as Cavern of Souls minus the counter part. Courtyard also helps you pay for activated abilities of the creature type.
@@Kristjan0209 No one is saying it should be ranked higher, but it wasn't even mentioned in the discussion. And it also depends on your playgroup, as well as how important activated abilities are for your commander and your tribe. For example, Secluded Courtyard is SUPER good in my Rin and Seri Inseparable deck because the activated ability of the commander costs three different colors of mana. Cavern of Souls can't help with its ability.
@@austinbattenbergRichard ranked courtyard higher than cavern??? Making your spells uncounterable is way more often relevant than using an ability. I think every big tribe should run it and even some small tribes yet decks I would run Courtyard in are very little
I've watched about ten of these episodes, and my only real takeaway is that Richard has like, the worst opinions, and like, the worst justifications for those opinions.
I don’t know if it changes things at all, but Reflections of Littjara does say “Cast,” not ETB, meaning even if the original spell is countered, you still get the card.
@@blueredlover1060 My main thought was it makes things harder to counter, which has come up for me before. Didn’t really realize the Crib Swap thing, that’s interesting.
I REFUSE TO RUN TOSKI IN MY GO WIDE TRIBALS. Also for cavern, if opponent can't counter your creatures, that opponent will counter other opponents for you then ;)
Here are some other tribal support cards that range in quality that could be discussed in a future video: Colorless: Belbe's Portal, Brass Herald, Cryptic Gateway, Heirloom Blade, Herald's Horn, Icon of Ancestry, Konda's Banner, Maskwood Nexus, Mirror of the Forebears, Stoneforge Masterwork, and Pyre of Heroes. White: And They Shall Know No Fear, Folk Hero, Radiant Destiny, Rally the Ranks, Resplendent Marshal, and Harsh Mercy Blue: Arcane Adaptation, Faces of the Past, and Glasspool Mimic Black: Conspiracy, Cover of Darkness, Crippling Fear, Raise the Draugr, and Species Specialist Red: Molten Echoes Green: Alpha Status, Grave Sifter, Kolvori, God of Kinship / The Ringhart Crest, and Steely Resolve Multicolor: Etchings of the Chosen and Unsettled Mariner.
In the context of tribal, isn't cavern just amazing due to the ceiling of how your other cards interact with each other if it resolves just because it has the typing? Also in general you would have a critical mass of tribal cards in the first place and probably have a lower amount of non tribal spells, so wouldn't it tap for colours in most cases?
Maskwood Nexus. SS Tribal Tier. I say this because most tribal decks can benefit from a lot of creatures that are not otherwise part of that tribe. Gives all of those creatures the triggers and other ability bonuses with the otherwise 'off tribal' creatures too. Especially good for low availability tribes. Heroes being a good example. BONUS!: You have board wipe insurance. Goes without saying adds multiple tribal creatures of whatever tribal you're playing.
Just want to say metallic mimic and adaptive automaton are a god send for my Tolsimir friend to wolves wolf tribal deck. There are plenty of wolves, but most are horrible. These are low cmc and actually do something and with my commander allow me to gain life and fight a creature. Outside of that I would use these cards to even out my curve. If im playing high cmc creatures like angels, they will help estaish a board state before turn 5 to get something on the ground. I think they are good cards worth considering in lots of tribes. Their price is an issue though ill admit.
Yes Richard! A sight for sore eyes. I love everyone else, but Richard is so integral for these podcasts lol they literally haven’t finished a topic list since he’s been gone 😂
If we're throwing in Mirror March as an honorable mention might I point out Flameshadow Conjuring and Molten Echoes? Sure you can't get multiples but you can't whiff on them either and they come in for a much more reasonable 3R and 2RR respectively. I also feel Mana Echoes should get an honorable mention here for tribal support. This card can give you a silly amount of mana, albeit colorless mana, if you're running this in tribal. It triggers off of ANY creature that comes into play that happens to share a type with any creatures you have in play. This count tokens. This also counts your OPPONENTS creatures if there happens to be any overlap with yours. In addition you can use the mana on ANYTHING.
If I've had the 60 bucks laying around I would totally play cavern in my muldrotha. When you have a high mana value commander getting it countered is devastating, especially with stuff like mana drain.
So good to see Richard back and despite what am I am about to say I do find mysekf agreeing with him more than any other fish. However, I do find that when Richard doesn't like something (such as V Banner) the response that 'Oh then it just gets Ondu Inversion'ed' is slightly unreasonable on the basis that any card you can point to another specific card or set of specific cards and be like 'because of this/these, this card is trash'. On that basis, nothing is playable.
Hey @MTGGoldfish I got my playmat and it looks GORGEOUS! It is so vibrant and saturated- I own over 40 playmats including custom prints and this one is by far the best print I've ever seen. I got the gold signed version, and it's become my favorite mat to roll out. Against UltraPro mats, players see it and it's obvious theirs is a lower saturation level- the vibrancy is starkly different. Your signatures are excellently recreated and the stitching is tight. I'm so glad I was able to purchase this, and my hat is off to you and your team for making it happen. When's the next one?!
Good to see Richard again. Really missed him and his takes. Hopefully he'll appear as a "guest" in upcoming clashes, I'd be much more inclined to see them if so.
Personally, I feel Cavern of Souls is good in any deck. Even if you’re only using it to cast your commander. There are so many counterspells in commander. In a 4 player game there is bound to be someone playing counters.
I throw black market connections in almost all my black tribal decks for the extra value from the shapeshifter on top of an already great card. Also it’s easy to underrate cavern when you never know if it’s doing it’s job really since your opponent will never reveal the counterspell they may or may not have had.
Seth & Richard, your answer to Littjara is merfolk. Sooooo many non-legendary fish & not one of them scary enough to make you the villain in EDH. But damn is it fun to flood the board with 'em.
The issue I see with Kindred Summons is that in Elf deck, which would be the deck most equipped to ramp it out quickly is that, if you have 5 elves, you might not hit 7 mana worth of elves. You may hit, like, four one-drops and a two-drop.
I don't think you need to hit 7mana worth of your tribe for this card to be worth it. In your example you drew 5 cards and got 6mana worth at instant speed, that's pretty decent.
Vanquisher's banner above coat of arms is one of the deepest card mis-evaluations I've ever seen lol. coat of arms is basically just the tribal craterhoof.
1:11:00 Man when Sett realized Richard had Cavern and the shitty uncommon at the same rank and lost it, I legit laughed out loud. Hilarious discusion, Richard never ceases to amaze. (Actually on retrospect he has the uncommon at A and cavern at B!) Good video
I agree with Seth that Cavern is actually SS. There are lots of decks that would play cavern simply to resolve your commander or other combo pieces (Thoracle etc.). The uncounterable part of the card is the most important part, and the mana fixing is a great side-effect.
Cavern of Souls’s uncounterability is insane. Most popular tribes have some extremely powerful support pieces that people will want to snap counter. Do you really want your Priest of Titania or your Krenko or your Champion of Lambholt or your Fledgling Offspring to get countered? Besides, most tribal decks will have at least 30 tribe members in them. That’s almost half your spells being uncounterable, and in its worst case scenario, it’s a Wastes. It still helps you cast spells on curve. You’ll have other lands to get colored mana from.
Seeing Patriach’s Bidding above a D is eye opening. It shares and everyone gets every creature of every type named back. It’s so bad. Just run Living Death if you want to reanimate everyone’s yard for 5 mana.
@@retrofuturistJL Scroll through average lists. If them naming: Humans, Wizards, Elves/Druids, vampires/zombies, etc based on their color doesn’t net them multiple creatures, I’d be amazed. Certain types just overlap so much even in non-tribal* decks. The moment this is cast everyone rifles through their yard and works out how to best reanimate their everything.
@@ms.sysbit5511 Dude you are high rn, patriarchs will definitely hit fewer creatures for your opponents on average then living death will, if for no other reason than that you as a tribal deck are more likely to have a full yard of creatures since you will be much more on-board and thus much more susceptible to wrath’s. It’s contingency, not a game plan. You run these cards incase the board is nuked. Every single time I’ve cast it’s been 5+ value creatures for me and one or two irrelevant creatures for my opponents. I guess if you play against mostly tribal decks then it’s meh but that’s not my experience at all.
11:22 I agreed with Richard more back when this video was published. But with the amount of cheap and even free counterspells increasing; the uncountable part is much nicer.
It's not a good card in general, but in certain tribal decks than can make a ton of mana like elves it can be good. It's slow but if you're pumping out 10/10's for 4 mana every turn...
Descendant's Path is one of the best tribal support cards in my Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck. It's perfect since that deck is already a tribal deck built around cheating big dinosaurs into play from the top of my library. Works especially well since I'm already running things like Cream of the Crop, Reinforcements, Congregation at Dawn, and Forerunner of the Empire to support my commander.
One card I’d like to plug: Ferocity of the Wilds (2R). Gives trample and +1/+0 to your attacking non-human creatures. If you’re in a non-green tribal deck other than humans, it’s a great way to get trample for your board! The +1/+0 is also nice for go-wide like Goblins.
Reflections of Littjara in Tyranid tribal could be quite nice, combo with Lucia Kane for potentially three sporocysts to grab ever basic land in your deck? not bad imo
I like Haunting Voyage in dragons and elves, which both have enough ramp that the casting cost is trivial in the late game and the foretell cost is trivial in the early game. Obviously the floor is low, but the ceiling is you win the game on the spot.
Its great. My elf deck is using it, patriach’s bidding, and living death. It’s the reanimation trio the deck is grinding through pod/aristocrats style to find and make a big play. It is a build around B
Not mentioned here: cards that buff a single creature based on other creatures of the same type, like Stoneforge Masterwork. Not for every deck, but can be a force multiplier when the power/toughness of a single creature matters, like Marwyn or Lathril, or if you're going for commander damage
Descendant's Path I think is fine because even if you miss it means you're more likely to draw into your tribe members which is very important for a tribal deck. I wouldn't pay three mana to just bottom a land every turn but when there's like a 1 in 4 to 1 in 2 chance I draw a card and save anywhere from 1 to 6 mana on a creature spell it's worth it.
Toski is the one Coastal Piracy effect I left out of my bird tribal deck. Squirrels are not birds. The only non birds in the deck are the angel that protects fliers and the human from homelands that buffs birds.
You don't *have* to Foretell Haunting Voyage. I play this card a lot in Stickfingers, Demon tribal, and two Mana for two Demons is still good. Vilis plus Doom Whisperer is actually "basically Griselbrand": pay 2, draw 2, then surveil 2. Of course, the Foretold version is a whole lot better, but sometimes you just need to get something on the board and two 6+ CMC creatures for 6, that you soft-tutored with self-mill, Entombs or Stickfingers? Powerful.
I actually think Obelisk of Urd is pretty ok. It's fairly innocuous, since it's only +2/+2, and it turns 1/1s into enough of a threat that they often aren't easy to chump block
kindred summons is really good with token makers, it's very easy to get 6 or 7 creatures of the same type with something like secure the wastes and then drop half of your deck on the field most people aren't gonna use a wrath if all you have is 6 vanilla 1/1s
I'd like to point out that Pact of the Serpent has Sign in Blood + Rakdos Charm energy, where you can turn your opponent's board against them...just saying
Literally Richard: "What if you put this card in your deck and then you never draw it, then it's a terrible card." Amazing. Greatest minds of our time.
While there is a tiny amount of value in being able to bait counterspells with your creatures by not having cavern of souls, I'd say it's also pretty powerful to not get your creatures countered. Especially when we're talking about things like Nether Void that just get soft-blanked by Cavern, it can be a very powerful card
Pyre of heroes is a good one. In zombies it tutors up combo pieces on most points of the curve and in slivers it can find you evasion on most points of the curve. I'm sure it has similar and other applications in other tribes, that's just how I use it in my tribal decks.
Mirror Box, Mirror gallery and Sakashima of a Thousand Faces are obvious includes, if the Legend Rule is a problem for Reflections of Littjara. Also gotta add: a deck that wants to copy a creature and sack it as a mechanic is a consideration.
Most important spells in my tribal decks are usually the tribal creatures. I have a lot of Cavern of Souls. I also flip off the blue player as I use it!
cavern of souls, its entire point, is the uncounterable. The "1" mana is not even the point. It is SSSS for pretty much EVERY deck that has a few cards that are SPECIFIC and needed. It doesn't come in tapped. It is LITERALLY top 5 lands for any deck that combos with even 1 creature. It just removes counter spells as an out and the only weakness is.... land hate. I run it in almost every deck that doesn't run back to basics or blood moon etc even in spell slinger. I can literally run this in decks that don't even have more than 1 creature of the same type. For instance volo. Its just THAT good. Its a free counterspell that also mana fixes for the next card I cast.
The number of times I've Foretold a Haunting Voyage early in the game to use it later to rebuild and win... It's not a card you use in one turn or save in hand. It's an emergency button.
I like that Richard is downgrading Cavern of Souls because it doesn't make colored mana when he runs soooo many colorless utility lands and this is the best utility land for tribal.
I know I'm late to this video... To me, tribal means only that thing. The tribals I have currently. Demon - Gorgon - elf - rat The ONLY creature types in those decks are the ones from the tribe. Otherwise it would be a themed deck. Themed decks can be creatures, mechanics or ideas and are by no means as strict. Current themed decks Infect - extort - oceanic terrors I also don't use changelings in tribal decks, but generally I don't use any changelings. Decks I'm looking to make Treefolk - inkling - vehicle/mech Only the first is tribal as you might be able to guess In my version of tribal anyway 😅
Mutavault is really great in Party deck as Seth pointed but Reliquery Tower Vs Mutavault most of the time I think that Mutavault is better. Tower is fine but it's played in alot of decks it shouldn't be, is on Krenko EDH page and some tribal decks most of the time not have 8+ card in hand anyway to have tower do something. If your deck consistently have situations that draws lots of cards than is good
It’s difficult to make a case for universally good tribal cards since it always comes down to whether you are doing a go wide strategy or are you looking to drop bombs. Usually what’s good for one is not good for the other. Take lords for example. One reason I think you’re down on them is because they really shine in go wide strategies. They’re important because they change the math. If you have a bunch of 1/1 creatures, dropping a single lord effect boosts your total power by 100%. Having cards like Automated Automaton or Metallic Mimic increase the number of lord effects that you’re running, making it less effective to individually remove them. I wouldn’t use them in say a dragon tribal tech since usually those creatures are already huge. Conversely, cards like Herald’s Horn and Urza’s Incubator allow you to play those bigger, more costly creatures are better in those decks and aren’t nearly as good in small creature decks that have a lot of colored pips. Cheating out creatures is even better. I tend to prefer go wide strategies for tribal and my Edgar Markov deck takes full advantage of them. It’s loaded up with a bunch of lords (including Metallic Mimic, Adaptive Automaton, Obelisk of Urd, and Vanquisher’s Banner). All of those little 1/1s vampires that Edgar makes are suddenly 3/3s and 4/4s. The one card that I don’t see that should absolutely be on this list is Molten Echoes. It’s cheaper than Reflections of Littjara, synergizes with token doubling effects, grants the tokens haste, and you don’t care about losing creatures to the legend rule because the tokens are going to be exiled at the end of turn anyways. These token copy cards also allow you to double up your ETB triggers which is something that I don’t think you guys are taking into consideration. So let’s take one of those lords (most are 2/2s) along with Molten Echoes and a token doubler like Anointed Procession. Cast the lord, get two vampire tokens thanks to Edgar’s eminence ability, lord enters the battlefield and triggers Molten Echoes, which gives you two token lords with haste. Now you can freely attack with 2 4/4 tokens to whoever doesn’t have blockers or try to trade them with actual creature cards on your opponent’s side. That’s all off a single lord. Cards like Mana Echoes can ramp you to cast more spells. I also like Carnival of Souls for the same reason, but you have to be more cautious with it like you have to be with Coat of Arms.
Ever an interesting Conumdrum about the lords and anthems. At some level a round of +1/+1 doesn't impact much in EDH with all the players and the life totals. Slight edge in combats, but still takes 3-4 such pumps to go lethal. So it can be easier to have more cards that help you go even wider, or that individually pump even harder. Now anthem with upside is fine too. Sure Vanquisher's Banner is clunky, But if you're also playing it beside Marshal's Anthem and Heraldic Banner then you're advancing your board and getting those powers up there.
@@Jerhevon right, there are diminishing returns, but in a 100 card deck, you need the redundancy to make sure draw into them (assuming not using tutors). The ability to change the math I think still makes them worth using. It’s also great that they pump each other too. I also think those that give extra abilities are better than those that just pump up power and toughness. Things like flying, menace, or trample further change that math. Even Marshal’s Anthem and Heraldic Banner aren’t right for every deck. If your army is almost entirely token based, then that multikicker, while an awesome effect, isn’t going to help much. Probably more effective with larger creature that you can cheat out. Heraldic Banner needs one color to be disproportionately represented for it to be effective. I had it in an earlier build of Edgar Markov that was almost entirely black, but took it out for my most recent one, which has a greater mix of black, white, red, and colorless creatures.
My problem with Adaptive Automaton and Metallic Mimic is that they don't have the tribal type outside of the battlefield. So if you have a tribal deck that cares about something like graveyards or cast triggers they don't benefit.
I agree with this. Getting Maskwood Nexus for my tribal tribal Rin & Seri deck was amazing. So many of the lords in the deck took advantage of the cards being tribal in places other than just the battlefield.
I do think Secluded Courtyard is a little bit closer to Cavern of Souls than some of the crew are giving it credit. It does let you activate abilities with coloured mana. Which can be a pretty big deal.
I JUST watched the dragon commander clash and if that game was just ANY of those dragon decks vs regular decks... cavern of souls becomes basically mandatory to stop them from shutting you down instantly if they have a single counter (which could also lose you the game since you need so much mana to cast the dragons in the first place). Rating CoS as anything below an A for tribal decks is actually kind of braindead if you EVER play with anybody who has counters. YOUR playgroup doesn't run a ton of counterspells but an absolute fuckton of players absolutely do and would 1000000% counter any important creature for a tribal deck (and they're really obvious creatures generally). A ton of tribal decks rely on key creatures to get down for ramp, combo, a straight up powerboost, etc on top of your commander itself being pretty important in a lot of tribal decks. If ANY of those are countered there's a real serious chance somebodys just killed your turn for like 2 mana because you didn't have cavern of souls. mana fixing and having enough colored mana is almost NEVER a problem in modern magic so that argument just doesn't really stick anymore. Honestly how often do any of us ACTUALLY see that happen to any serious degree???
Our full rankings can be seen here: i.imgur.com/N30wizr.png
No Pyre of Heroes?
Urza's Incubator being so low is...legitimately insane, to me.
Then again as a tribal player this whole video triggers the hell out of me lol
Where is realmwalker?
it feels so good to hear Richard's voice. like a cool uncle you only see during the Holidays.
He's also bringing a few of the questionable uncle opinions too lol Secluded Courtyard A but Cavern of Souls B????
@@DylanHunter64 I mean on most tables Secluded Courtyard does more
@@oORoOFLOo You really need a critical mass of activated abilities that are color intensive for it to actually be relevant. Extremely more likely that uncounterability is more relevant. I don't even think it's debatable honestly.
This is probably the best description for Richard I’ve ever read
Right? ( this is what I hear Richard say after most sentences)
I love how in Richard's universe, everyone is casting a boardwipe literally every turn, but also every spell gets countered
He plays with Crim a lot
i feel like they are very inconsistent with their opinions, they warp the reality as it fits their point
@@savinobalducci6148 That's just kind of a natural human thing to do. Richard in particular seems to talk with a lot of tongue in cheek hyperbole, he's kind of grinning as he says a lot of things like that. Which, personally, I really like, I think he adds a fun, sometimes contrarian, flavor to the podcast.
But also every spell doesn't get countered a la cavern of souls.
@@jdude99lolz yeah why would you need Cavern, nobody counters creatures anyway
I like how Richard keeps the conversation going so you make it through the whole list. Instead of only a few cards.
Only after first derailing the conversation for five minutes because of his stupid hot takes that even he doesn't believe in
"I gotta ask you then something Richard. So you don't like this in part because it can give your opponent's something" says Seth regarding patriarchs bidding.... I swore that was going to turn into a secret rendezvous jab
Which is particularly bizarre as Patriarch's MIGHT give them something while Secret Rendezvous WILL give them something.
@@zackkelley2940 But it's more useful for your card draw to be getting allies than your wincon
@@surfinggarchomp2820 Which i suspect is the ACTUAL reason he likes this and not Patriarch's Bidding rather than the given argument. You can politic with Secret Rendezvous, you can't with Patriarch's Bidding.
Isn't there a blue card that's banned in Commander because it lets two players draw their entire deck putting them both way ahead of the table?
Obviously Secret Rendezvous isn't as good, but I think that shows there's clearly an advantage to grabbing an ally in a free-for-all
@@zackkelley2940No, he just gets really stuck on his own predisposed opinions.
In true Richard form, he gives us a Generous Gift
I love tribal decks, man. As someone that grew up with Yugioh, I have an appreciation for cards that directly syngergize with eachother on more levels than just rules text or even merely color identity.
Which was the first tribe in Yugioh? Has to be Harpie Ladies right?
harpy ladies didn't really synergise all that much initially, the first deck that really synergised well with themselves right out of the gate was probably gladiator beasts
but all the synergies are in the card text in yugioh as well?
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305Well, technically yes, but he means interacts with the name of the card or the monster type instead of just card effect
Love Richard's embracing of the Codfather moniker. Great name.
Richard "it doesn't win you the game, this card sucks, eww Patriarchs bidding gives other people creatures too, spent your turn doing nothing"
Also Richard "Secret Rendezvous hnnnngh, spending mana for 2 cards worth of advantage and giving someone 3, no finer play in the game"
I love Richard and Crim for their crazy takes
Crim at least is consistent. Richard is all over the place with the absolute worst takes
I swear, Richard is playing 4D chess, where even when he’s not playing Magic he’s politicking, getting everyone to think he’s out of his mind with these goofy ass takes, so he can fly under the radar in game and stela wins. (*takes off tin foil hat*)
I think there are distinct differences here. Patriarch's bidding is more conditional and you can't control who is getting a benefit from it so you don't get any political benefit from it the way you could with secret rendezvous.
@@liamfoote7164You do control who gets the most benefit. You do, because you built your deck with a type in mind.
Received my foil-stamped playmat in the mail last week and I just have to say thank you! Without a doubt the most beautiful playmat I own and super stoked that is has all of your signatures :)
1:03:03 "TRIBAL Cards Richard!"
"Field of the Dead is actually a SS Tribal support card because it lets you pivot your tribe"
My sides hurt from laughing so much. I missed Richard.
Read this comment, just as Tomer started exclaiming that.
Perfect timing 👌
For the Cavern of souls arguement. When running a tribal deck which is only what I run. You usually have 25-30 creatures of that tribe in the deck. Subtract lands that’s 30-40 other spells. This means almost have your spells have the ability to not be countered. I think cavern of Souls is S tier in ANY tribal deck.
It just depends on playgroup or style considering its price, i have specter and zombie tribal decks, one is a meme and the other is semi competitive, the only spells I care that much that would be countered are non-creature like Richard says. If I still had my Grixis Dragons deck, even then I'd start caring about cast my spells a bit more.
noone counters tribal dorks
Yea but 85% of your tribal creatures were never going to have a counter spell wasted on them anyways.
Agreed, half your spells are going to be potentially uncounterable. And the other half doesn't NEED to be cast with Cavern of Souls. Richard out here acting like CoS is the only land in his deck in these scenarios lol.
@@jayjayhooksch1 But the ones that will, like Priest of Titania, you *really don’t want to lose.* When the uncounterability matters, it really matters.
Counterspell is hands down my favorite tribal support card. Nothing synergizes with my deck better than protecting all my important tribal pieces, sometimes it can even protect my non tribal cards, must play in blue tribal decks 😂
Ikr? People need to wake up to the real tribal cards. I personally love to run smothering tithe in my tribal decks because it makes sure that I always have mana up for my counterspells that protect my tribal payoffs like timewarp.
Return of the King Richard. I actually really like Phil’s ratings because they seem optimistic of each cards’ ceiling.
We missed you Richard!! Hope fatherhood is treating you well :-)
The king returns by popular demand! All hail Richard.
Omg Richard is here! I’m so happy to see and hear you!
I could listen to this podcast every day. Easily the best mtg podcast out there
Hahahahahahahaha
Pyre of Heroes - really been enjoying it in my Giada angels deck. Going up your curve consistently and getting specific effects/creatures for the current board state has been very effective
It’s great in Zombies since they can recur so easily.
I seriously considered it in Tovolar werewolves. Mix some utility humans in with your werewolves, and during the Day you can trade in your Bird Watcher for Halana and Alena, Timeless Witness, or Huntmaster of the Fells. Some utility wolf chains too.
Richard evaluates every card from a worst case scenario situation. We have someone in our playgroup who does this to the point they essentially only play "staples" and it drives me nuts.
Thank you, it was driving me insane the whole video. Someone hurt this dude, and he's traumatized from bad experiences playing tribal decks or something. Like, bro makes some serious non-arguments and doesn't even give the cards proper due. I'm surprised his cards weren't all D or F tier or something, cause he never explains why he gave them a higher rating than the lowest tiers.
I think its definitely fair questions to ask. But also aggravating. At the end of the day I want to make my werewolves potent, but also feel werewolfy. And just that is going to flavor my card choices. Vanquishers Banner? Seems fine for a tribe with a lot of cheap creatures. I do want to just go brrr casting elves, soldiers, or changelings. But not so good for clunky 4-5 drop werewolves where more of my cheap creatures are wolves. But Key to the City? Feels great there. Avabruck does have a Mayor, after all. And maybe, just maybe Ohran Frostfang over Toski, because the deathtouch on attacking goes super well with every other werewolf buff granting trample.
With all these tribal discussions and commander clash games, I demand a colorless Eldrazi tribal commander clash!
Glad to see the COD Father is back! I pulled a card from Dominaria United yesterday and immediately thought of you. Lol. "Love song of night and day" secret rendezvous vibes, and birds! 😂
The attraction of tribal for me is playing the tribal synergy cards that only work for that tribe. I unified strike your Toski.
Came to YT just to express how glad I was when I heard the Richard opener!
I'm surprised they didn't mention Molten Echoes especially with the honorable mention of Mirror March. In a tribal deck it's a strict upgrade at 4 mana. I'd argue even better than Reflections of Littjara (which I love) since the copies have haste. Still have to watch for the legend rule but its a very solid card in any tribal with red.
I think Cavern is clearly an S or A. However, for 70$, I think the 'value for money' is poor. Your deck gets significantly better if you buy like 3-4 fetches/shocks for 70$.
for sure, the only reason you'd score it lower than an A in tribal EVER is due to the actual cost of the card. If it was a .25c card there's no way you wouldn't see just about every single tribal deck run it
Love having Richard back, now we just need Phil to get more comfortable on the podcast. Get everyone in here!
Seth, Secluded Courtyard is NOT literally the same as Cavern of Souls minus the counter part. Courtyard also helps you pay for activated abilities of the creature type.
But to rate that ability higher than your creatures being uncounterable is stupid
@@Kristjan0209 No one is saying it should be ranked higher, but it wasn't even mentioned in the discussion. And it also depends on your playgroup, as well as how important activated abilities are for your commander and your tribe. For example, Secluded Courtyard is SUPER good in my Rin and Seri Inseparable deck because the activated ability of the commander costs three different colors of mana. Cavern of Souls can't help with its ability.
@@austinbattenbergRichard ranked courtyard higher than cavern??? Making your spells uncounterable is way more often relevant than using an ability. I think every big tribe should run it and even some small tribes yet decks I would run Courtyard in are very little
I've watched about ten of these episodes, and my only real takeaway is that Richard has like, the worst opinions, and like, the worst justifications for those opinions.
I don’t know if it changes things at all, but Reflections of Littjara does say “Cast,” not ETB, meaning even if the original spell is countered, you still get the card.
but it doesn't trigger of cheating cards into play like necroduality does.
@@jamespatterson5644 That's the double edged sword of it. It would trigger on stuff like Crib Swap, which is fun.
@@blueredlover1060 My main thought was it makes things harder to counter, which has come up for me before. Didn’t really realize the Crib Swap thing, that’s interesting.
@@e.t.6424 I run both in my Zombies deck. They're nice together.
I REFUSE TO RUN TOSKI IN MY GO WIDE TRIBALS. Also for cavern, if opponent can't counter your creatures, that opponent will counter other opponents for you then ;)
Here are some other tribal support cards that range in quality that could be discussed in a future video:
Colorless: Belbe's Portal, Brass Herald, Cryptic Gateway, Heirloom Blade, Herald's Horn, Icon of Ancestry, Konda's Banner, Maskwood Nexus, Mirror of the Forebears, Stoneforge Masterwork, and Pyre of Heroes.
White: And They Shall Know No Fear, Folk Hero, Radiant Destiny, Rally the Ranks, Resplendent Marshal, and Harsh Mercy
Blue: Arcane Adaptation, Faces of the Past, and Glasspool Mimic
Black: Conspiracy, Cover of Darkness, Crippling Fear, Raise the Draugr, and Species Specialist
Red: Molten Echoes
Green: Alpha Status, Grave Sifter, Kolvori, God of Kinship / The Ringhart Crest, and Steely Resolve
Multicolor: Etchings of the Chosen and Unsettled Mariner.
In the context of tribal, isn't cavern just amazing due to the ceiling of how your other cards interact with each other if it resolves just because it has the typing? Also in general you would have a critical mass of tribal cards in the first place and probably have a lower amount of non tribal spells, so wouldn't it tap for colours in most cases?
I missed Richard so much
Maskwood Nexus. SS Tribal Tier.
I say this because most tribal decks can benefit from a lot of creatures that are not otherwise part of that tribe.
Gives all of those creatures the triggers and other ability bonuses with the otherwise 'off tribal' creatures too.
Especially good for low availability tribes. Heroes being a good example.
BONUS!: You have board wipe insurance.
Goes without saying adds multiple tribal creatures of whatever tribal you're playing.
Return of the Wildspeaker is for me a tribal card that is tremendously good with any non-human tribal, but again it is very good in non tribal deck
Just want to say metallic mimic and adaptive automaton are a god send for my Tolsimir friend to wolves wolf tribal deck. There are plenty of wolves, but most are horrible. These are low cmc and actually do something and with my commander allow me to gain life and fight a creature. Outside of that I would use these cards to even out my curve. If im playing high cmc creatures like angels, they will help estaish a board state before turn 5 to get something on the ground. I think they are good cards worth considering in lots of tribes. Their price is an issue though ill admit.
I love that these videos always show me cards I’ve never heard of. I’m v excited about casting pact of the serpent in 12-15 business days
Metallic mimic is pretty good in Magda too given you need an artifact dwarf for clock of Omens.
I've got a cold too, Tomer. I feel you.
So sad you're sick during tribal week of all weeks!
I could not imagine tribal week without Richard ngl
Yes Richard! A sight for sore eyes. I love everyone else, but Richard is so integral for these podcasts lol they literally haven’t finished a topic list since he’s been gone 😂
If we're throwing in Mirror March as an honorable mention might I point out Flameshadow Conjuring and Molten Echoes? Sure you can't get multiples but you can't whiff on them either and they come in for a much more reasonable 3R and 2RR respectively.
I also feel Mana Echoes should get an honorable mention here for tribal support. This card can give you a silly amount of mana, albeit colorless mana, if you're running this in tribal. It triggers off of ANY creature that comes into play that happens to share a type with any creatures you have in play. This count tokens. This also counts your OPPONENTS creatures if there happens to be any overlap with yours. In addition you can use the mana on ANYTHING.
I truly do not understand how Richard's brain works, but I appreciate the entertainment greatly.
If I've had the 60 bucks laying around I would totally play cavern in my muldrotha. When you have a high mana value commander getting it countered is devastating, especially with stuff like mana drain.
So good to see Richard back and despite what am I am about to say I do find mysekf agreeing with him more than any other fish. However, I do find that when Richard doesn't like something (such as V Banner) the response that 'Oh then it just gets Ondu Inversion'ed' is slightly unreasonable on the basis that any card you can point to another specific card or set of specific cards and be like 'because of this/these, this card is trash'. On that basis, nothing is playable.
Hey @MTGGoldfish I got my playmat and it looks GORGEOUS! It is so vibrant and saturated- I own over 40 playmats including custom prints and this one is by far the best print I've ever seen. I got the gold signed version, and it's become my favorite mat to roll out.
Against UltraPro mats, players see it and it's obvious theirs is a lower saturation level- the vibrancy is starkly different. Your signatures are excellently recreated and the stitching is tight.
I'm so glad I was able to purchase this, and my hat is off to you and your team for making it happen. When's the next one?!
Good to see Richard again. Really missed him and his takes. Hopefully he'll appear as a "guest" in upcoming clashes, I'd be much more inclined to see them if so.
Personally, I feel Cavern of Souls is good in any deck. Even if you’re only using it to cast your commander. There are so many counterspells in commander. In a 4 player game there is bound to be someone playing counters.
Welcome back Richard.
The Codfather Returns!
I throw black market connections in almost all my black tribal decks for the extra value from the shapeshifter on top of an already great card. Also it’s easy to underrate cavern when you never know if it’s doing it’s job really since your opponent will never reveal the counterspell they may or may not have had.
Seth & Richard, your answer to Littjara is merfolk. Sooooo many non-legendary fish & not one of them scary enough to make you the villain in EDH. But damn is it fun to flood the board with 'em.
The issue I see with Kindred Summons is that in Elf deck, which would be the deck most equipped to ramp it out quickly is that, if you have 5 elves, you might not hit 7 mana worth of elves. You may hit, like, four one-drops and a two-drop.
I don't think you need to hit 7mana worth of your tribe for this card to be worth it. In your example you drew 5 cards and got 6mana worth at instant speed, that's pretty decent.
Vanquisher's banner above coat of arms is one of the deepest card mis-evaluations I've ever seen lol. coat of arms is basically just the tribal craterhoof.
Please let Phil talk. Everyone interrupts him so much and talks over him.
1:11:00 Man when Sett realized Richard had Cavern and the shitty uncommon at the same rank and lost it, I legit laughed out loud. Hilarious discusion, Richard never ceases to amaze. (Actually on retrospect he has the uncommon at A and cavern at B!) Good video
Black market connections from cl2, card draw, treasure and a changling. 3 mana then 6 life a turn for loads of advantage and a tribal creature.
I agree with Seth that Cavern is actually SS. There are lots of decks that would play cavern simply to resolve your commander or other combo pieces (Thoracle etc.). The uncounterable part of the card is the most important part, and the mana fixing is a great side-effect.
Cavern of Souls’s uncounterability is insane. Most popular tribes have some extremely powerful support pieces that people will want to snap counter. Do you really want your Priest of Titania or your Krenko or your Champion of Lambholt or your Fledgling Offspring to get countered?
Besides, most tribal decks will have at least 30 tribe members in them. That’s almost half your spells being uncounterable, and in its worst case scenario, it’s a Wastes. It still helps you cast spells on curve. You’ll have other lands to get colored mana from.
Seeing Patriach’s Bidding above a D is eye opening. It shares and everyone gets every creature of every type named back. It’s so bad. Just run Living Death if you want to reanimate everyone’s yard for 5 mana.
Not every deck will be tribal. Even if they were then just make sure your yard will put you in a better spot than the others
@@retrofuturistJL Scroll through average lists. If them naming: Humans, Wizards, Elves/Druids, vampires/zombies, etc based on their color doesn’t net them multiple creatures, I’d be amazed. Certain types just overlap so much even in non-tribal* decks. The moment this is cast everyone rifles through their yard and works out how to best reanimate their everything.
@@ms.sysbit5511 Dude you are high rn, patriarchs will definitely hit fewer creatures for your opponents on average then living death will, if for no other reason than that you as a tribal deck are more likely to have a full yard of creatures since you will be much more on-board and thus much more susceptible to wrath’s. It’s contingency, not a game plan. You run these cards incase the board is nuked. Every single time I’ve cast it’s been 5+ value creatures for me and one or two irrelevant creatures for my opponents. I guess if you play against mostly tribal decks then it’s meh but that’s not my experience at all.
Richard’s presence was so missed on the pod! His distinct opinions are so interesting to hear. I honestly think this might be the best cast.
Welcome back Richard!!!
11:22 I agreed with Richard more back when this video was published. But with the amount of cheap and even free counterspells increasing; the uncountable part is much nicer.
Lol, I love the conversation of Riptide Replicator. Not a good card, but now I want a copy
It's not a good card in general, but in certain tribal decks than can make a ton of mana like elves it can be good. It's slow but if you're pumping out 10/10's for 4 mana every turn...
Descendant's Path is one of the best tribal support cards in my Gishath, Sun's Avatar deck. It's perfect since that deck is already a tribal deck built around cheating big dinosaurs into play from the top of my library. Works especially well since I'm already running things like Cream of the Crop, Reinforcements, Congregation at Dawn, and Forerunner of the Empire to support my commander.
One card I’d like to plug: Ferocity of the Wilds (2R). Gives trample and +1/+0 to your attacking non-human creatures. If you’re in a non-green tribal deck other than humans, it’s a great way to get trample for your board! The +1/+0 is also nice for go-wide like Goblins.
Reflections of Littjara in Tyranid tribal could be quite nice, combo with Lucia Kane for potentially three sporocysts to grab ever basic land in your deck? not bad imo
I like Haunting Voyage in dragons and elves, which both have enough ramp that the casting cost is trivial in the late game and the foretell cost is trivial in the early game. Obviously the floor is low, but the ceiling is you win the game on the spot.
Its great. My elf deck is using it, patriach’s bidding, and living death. It’s the reanimation trio the deck is grinding through pod/aristocrats style to find and make a big play.
It is a build around B
New arrival here, referred by Demo at EDH Deckbuilding. I only play at home by myself, so UA-cam has become the equivalent of my playgroup.
Not mentioned here: cards that buff a single creature based on other creatures of the same type, like Stoneforge Masterwork. Not for every deck, but can be a force multiplier when the power/toughness of a single creature matters, like Marwyn or Lathril, or if you're going for commander damage
Descendant's Path I think is fine because even if you miss it means you're more likely to draw into your tribe members which is very important for a tribal deck. I wouldn't pay three mana to just bottom a land every turn but when there's like a 1 in 4 to 1 in 2 chance I draw a card and save anywhere from 1 to 6 mana on a creature spell it's worth it.
Wish you could choose to bottom the card or keep it; Sometimes you might need that non-creature card.
Toski is the one Coastal Piracy effect I left out of my bird tribal deck.
Squirrels are not birds. The only non birds in the deck are the angel that protects fliers and the human from homelands that buffs birds.
"DO you guys like Lords in your tribal commander decks?"
Yes.
Yes I do.
A lot. lol
Pact of the Serpent is great because you can use it to drain out someone for the last bit of damage. It is definitely a thing I have done in Lathril.
You don't *have* to Foretell Haunting Voyage. I play this card a lot in Stickfingers, Demon tribal, and two Mana for two Demons is still good. Vilis plus Doom Whisperer is actually "basically Griselbrand": pay 2, draw 2, then surveil 2. Of course, the Foretold version is a whole lot better, but sometimes you just need to get something on the board and two 6+ CMC creatures for 6, that you soft-tutored with self-mill, Entombs or Stickfingers? Powerful.
I actually think Obelisk of Urd is pretty ok. It's fairly innocuous, since it's only +2/+2, and it turns 1/1s into enough of a threat that they often aren't easy to chump block
And with Convoke it's not too hard to cast.
Bittersweet when someone else doesn’t show lol it’s weird but Richard always comes through with the hotness so I’m ready
kindred summons is really good with token makers, it's very easy to get 6 or 7 creatures of the same type with something like secure the wastes and then drop half of your deck on the field
most people aren't gonna use a wrath if all you have is 6 vanilla 1/1s
I'd like to point out that Pact of the Serpent has Sign in Blood + Rakdos Charm energy, where you can turn your opponent's board against them...just saying
reminds me: had a teacher once, shed get angry whenever we said S-S when we spelled something, we had to say double S. guess the country.
This is such a good show!
Literally Richard: "What if you put this card in your deck and then you never draw it, then it's a terrible card."
Amazing. Greatest minds of our time.
While there is a tiny amount of value in being able to bait counterspells with your creatures by not having cavern of souls, I'd say it's also pretty powerful to not get your creatures countered. Especially when we're talking about things like Nether Void that just get soft-blanked by Cavern, it can be a very powerful card
Pyre of heroes is a good one. In zombies it tutors up combo pieces on most points of the curve and in slivers it can find you evasion on most points of the curve.
I'm sure it has similar and other applications in other tribes, that's just how I use it in my tribal decks.
Reliquary Tower only if you're going crazy on card draw.
Urza's Saga on the other hand... there is SO much good stuff you can fetch with it.^^
Mirror Box, Mirror gallery and Sakashima of a Thousand Faces are obvious includes, if the Legend Rule is a problem for Reflections of Littjara.
Also gotta add: a deck that wants to copy a creature and sack it as a mechanic is a consideration.
Most important spells in my tribal decks are usually the tribal creatures. I have a lot of Cavern of Souls. I also flip off the blue player as I use it!
cavern of souls, its entire point, is the uncounterable. The "1" mana is not even the point. It is SSSS for pretty much EVERY deck that has a few cards that are SPECIFIC and needed. It doesn't come in tapped. It is LITERALLY top 5 lands for any deck that combos with even 1 creature. It just removes counter spells as an out and the only weakness is.... land hate. I run it in almost every deck that doesn't run back to basics or blood moon etc even in spell slinger. I can literally run this in decks that don't even have more than 1 creature of the same type. For instance volo. Its just THAT good. Its a free counterspell that also mana fixes for the next card I cast.
The number of times I've Foretold a Haunting Voyage early in the game to use it later to rebuild and win... It's not a card you use in one turn or save in hand. It's an emergency button.
I like that Richard is downgrading Cavern of Souls because it doesn't make colored mana when he runs soooo many colorless utility lands and this is the best utility land for tribal.
I know I'm late to this video...
To me, tribal means only that thing.
The tribals I have currently.
Demon - Gorgon - elf - rat
The ONLY creature types in those decks are the ones from the tribe.
Otherwise it would be a themed deck.
Themed decks can be creatures, mechanics or ideas and are by no means as strict.
Current themed decks
Infect - extort - oceanic terrors
I also don't use changelings in tribal decks, but generally I don't use any changelings.
Decks I'm looking to make
Treefolk - inkling - vehicle/mech
Only the first is tribal as you might be able to guess
In my version of tribal anyway 😅
Cavern of souls explanation was insane
Did I miss Urzas incubator and harolds horn? those are pretty good tribal cards
the pinned comment has all of their rankings, wth Urza's getting a low grade form them
Descendants' Path is also nice because it allows you to cast the spell which matters on Cards Like "The Tarrasque" in Dinosaur Tribal.
Mutavault is really great in Party deck as Seth pointed but Reliquery Tower Vs Mutavault most of the time I think that Mutavault is better. Tower is fine but it's played in alot of decks it shouldn't be, is on Krenko EDH page and some tribal decks most of the time not have 8+ card in hand anyway to have tower do something. If your deck consistently have situations that draws lots of cards than is good
It’s difficult to make a case for universally good tribal cards since it always comes down to whether you are doing a go wide strategy or are you looking to drop bombs. Usually what’s good for one is not good for the other.
Take lords for example. One reason I think you’re down on them is because they really shine in go wide strategies. They’re important because they change the math. If you have a bunch of 1/1 creatures, dropping a single lord effect boosts your total power by 100%. Having cards like Automated Automaton or Metallic Mimic increase the number of lord effects that you’re running, making it less effective to individually remove them. I wouldn’t use them in say a dragon tribal tech since usually those creatures are already huge.
Conversely, cards like Herald’s Horn and Urza’s Incubator allow you to play those bigger, more costly creatures are better in those decks and aren’t nearly as good in small creature decks that have a lot of colored pips. Cheating out creatures is even better.
I tend to prefer go wide strategies for tribal and my Edgar Markov deck takes full advantage of them. It’s loaded up with a bunch of lords (including Metallic Mimic, Adaptive Automaton, Obelisk of Urd, and Vanquisher’s Banner). All of those little 1/1s vampires that Edgar makes are suddenly 3/3s and 4/4s.
The one card that I don’t see that should absolutely be on this list is Molten Echoes. It’s cheaper than Reflections of Littjara, synergizes with token doubling effects, grants the tokens haste, and you don’t care about losing creatures to the legend rule because the tokens are going to be exiled at the end of turn anyways. These token copy cards also allow you to double up your ETB triggers which is something that I don’t think you guys are taking into consideration.
So let’s take one of those lords (most are 2/2s) along with Molten Echoes and a token doubler like Anointed Procession. Cast the lord, get two vampire tokens thanks to Edgar’s eminence ability, lord enters the battlefield and triggers Molten Echoes, which gives you two token lords with haste. Now you can freely attack with 2 4/4 tokens to whoever doesn’t have blockers or try to trade them with actual creature cards on your opponent’s side. That’s all off a single lord. Cards like Mana Echoes can ramp you to cast more spells. I also like Carnival of Souls for the same reason, but you have to be more cautious with it like you have to be with Coat of Arms.
Ever an interesting Conumdrum about the lords and anthems. At some level a round of +1/+1 doesn't impact much in EDH with all the players and the life totals. Slight edge in combats, but still takes 3-4 such pumps to go lethal. So it can be easier to have more cards that help you go even wider, or that individually pump even harder. Now anthem with upside is fine too. Sure Vanquisher's Banner is clunky, But if you're also playing it beside Marshal's Anthem and Heraldic Banner then you're advancing your board and getting those powers up there.
@@Jerhevon right, there are diminishing returns, but in a 100 card deck, you need the redundancy to make sure draw into them (assuming not using tutors). The ability to change the math I think still makes them worth using. It’s also great that they pump each other too. I also think those that give extra abilities are better than those that just pump up power and toughness. Things like flying, menace, or trample further change that math.
Even Marshal’s Anthem and Heraldic Banner aren’t right for every deck. If your army is almost entirely token based, then that multikicker, while an awesome effect, isn’t going to help much. Probably more effective with larger creature that you can cheat out. Heraldic Banner needs one color to be disproportionately represented for it to be effective. I had it in an earlier build of Edgar Markov that was almost entirely black, but took it out for my most recent one, which has a greater mix of black, white, red, and colorless creatures.
My problem with Adaptive Automaton and Metallic Mimic is that they don't have the tribal type outside of the battlefield. So if you have a tribal deck that cares about something like graveyards or cast triggers they don't benefit.
I agree with this. Getting Maskwood Nexus for my tribal tribal Rin & Seri deck was amazing. So many of the lords in the deck took advantage of the cards being tribal in places other than just the battlefield.
Belbe's Portal! For tribals with higher mana costs it is perfect addition!
I do think Secluded Courtyard is a little bit closer to Cavern of Souls than some of the crew are giving it credit. It does let you activate abilities with coloured mana. Which can be a pretty big deal.
I JUST watched the dragon commander clash and if that game was just ANY of those dragon decks vs regular decks... cavern of souls becomes basically mandatory to stop them from shutting you down instantly if they have a single counter (which could also lose you the game since you need so much mana to cast the dragons in the first place).
Rating CoS as anything below an A for tribal decks is actually kind of braindead if you EVER play with anybody who has counters. YOUR playgroup doesn't run a ton of counterspells but an absolute fuckton of players absolutely do and would 1000000% counter any important creature for a tribal deck (and they're really obvious creatures generally). A ton of tribal decks rely on key creatures to get down for ramp, combo, a straight up powerboost, etc on top of your commander itself being pretty important in a lot of tribal decks. If ANY of those are countered there's a real serious chance somebodys just killed your turn for like 2 mana because you didn't have cavern of souls. mana fixing and having enough colored mana is almost NEVER a problem in modern magic so that argument just doesn't really stick anymore. Honestly how often do any of us ACTUALLY see that happen to any serious degree???