DMR, D-Star, and System Fusion Still Show No Winner (
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- Опубліковано 24 бер 2023
- Terry, AF7W, has a TH-D&$ which is a tri band radio. he is also wondering which digital modes are currently most used and which may stay in use for a period of time. Watch to Learn more.
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I disagree that DMR is 'Chinese'. DMR was created as a European standard. Being designed as a commercial radio standard, it was more available for amateur use vs a standard like Fusion and Dstar, which are exclusively Amateur. Motorola has DMR radios under their MotoTrbo designation, as well as many chinese manufacturers, and Kenwood commercial lines are now coming available with DMR. DMR has the advantage of mfgs making radios for the commercial world, vs just catering to the amateur users, so the scalability of resources works in its favor.
You are correct. The ham market is a tiny part of the overall comm market.
Nice explanation of the digital voice modes. I experiment with all of them. That is one of the things I like about the hobby is the learning and experimenting. 73
DMR is an open standard developed by ETSI (not Chinese). As I switched to almost all commercial gear since 2014, and have always been a Motorola fan, I went with DMR in 2015 and haven’t regretted it. It has become the default DV mode here in the Houston and DFW areas and works quite well. I can go almost anywhere in the greater Houston area and key up on 1 watt. But to each their own.
Yes and D-Star is open too
Yes, agreed. However, I switched to almost all commercial radio gear (mostly Motorola) since 2014 and I prefer the TDMA format as it gives 2 talk paths on a single repeater. Not to mention that DMR has the most DV repeaters/coverage in the Houston area.
I like icom but there are basically no DStar repeaters around here.
thank you very f*cking much for the clearest video on this topic on all the internet, great job, you really illuminated me on my deepest questions, I though have being looking hours of videos an couldn't make a choice, now in a 13minute vid I can finally go sleep till tomorrow in a soft bed, and at the first hour in the morning I'll go get myself want I need ! THANKS!!!
DMR was Motorola, China just started making radios with it. Japan started their own thing. The easy one is the one you know how to program.
My vote goes for C4FM from YSF, it is so simple to operate, you only need to find local repeater frequency (same as for analog). There are clubs or groups that assemble cross interconnection sites, so you can talk to all of digital modes, and even plain FM analog. 73!
Yeah fusion is really simple, as it should be, DMR is an absolute joke due to the code plugs, very frustrating.
I really recommend giving blue DV a go.
DMR is hard because it is a long-existing commercial standard that does way more than hams need. The extra features can get in the way.
@@davecasler You're correct, it's difficult because it's a commercial standard never intended for Ham use but it got so popular because the radios can be got much cheaper than Fusion or D-star.
In my opinion, Yaesu got it right with Fusion.
However, Blue DV makes it all simple, very simple.
D star is not fun.
@@o00scorpion00o But P25 Phase 1 was C4FM.. Yaesu is just using P25 Phase 1.
Dave: I agree with your analysis to use whatever digital technology is being used in your area. Here in Mississippi all three technologies are used, but in different areas of the state. Here in the SE part of the state System Fusion is the predominant digital mode. This took place because of Yaesu’s marketing by offering their System Fusion repeaters to clubs for $500. In the central part of the state they predominantly use D-Star and in NE Mississippi they use DMR. But there are DMR users scattered around the state. I have all three, but I mainly use DMR through my HotSpots. I build my own HotSpots using Pi Zero 2W in conjunction with the Pi-Star OS. I have not heard a lot of Digital modes being used, even on repeaters so equipped. Heck, it is hard to find anyone on 2 meter FM! But your advice to use what is predominant in your area is the best advice.
FreeDV is the open source digital mode for HF, but it is very robotic because of the limited bandwidth on HF. It might be worth trialing with on-air friends.
I believe that these "proprietary" digital protocols should be rejected by Hams until they are made open source. - WC8J
Both the DSTAR people and Yaesu claim their standards are open. DMR too. As far as I know, no ham manufacturer has to pay any royalties to use these standards.
DMR and D-Star are open, you need to do your research
@@3TQVK I have done lots of research. And, sure you can get info on the protocols. But try to implement them independently, and you'll see what I mean. (D-Star requires the AMBE-2000 Vocoder Chip which is proprietary) Maybe I'm wrong, but can you point to any independent implementations of any of them? Has anyone been able to implement these 'protocols' in GNU Radio, for example?
Lol, DMR is not Chinese, although they make a lot of the radios it seems. Definitely not Chinese. If you use high end DMR stuff, they do a lot more than the other HAM digital modes can think of.
👍👍 Thanks ...Alan in 🇨🇱
I'd love to see a single radio have all the digital modes, but unfortunately that'll probably never happen, you just have to go by what area you live in on what digital mode they use and buy a radio that does that.
So, I have a question for everyone: What's the advantage of these digital modes over plain old analogue FM/AM ? (Excluding Internet gateways.)
I myself do not know and I was asking myself the same question, apparently there are a lot more of people using digital modes that welcome you more peacefully to compare with the analogue people that are more reserved, this is the first argument and the second is that apparently by digital mode you have higher chances of establishing your contact and overall better signal .. that's what they say .. I got to find out by myself I guess but well what do you think sir ?
I cross my fingers observing M17 digital radio standard development. As soon as first commercial radio will implement it, there is a big chance to have a game changer here. Open standard, open codec, great audio quality.
Because that’s all we needed, 1 more Digital format
@@grumpydad56 It already works with MMDVM, what difference does it make? And yes, we do need another standard. One that's actually made by hams, for hams, not by two companies that are competing for market share over each other, nor by people who run airports and fleets of trucks. M17 actually allows for experimentation.
@@joewob4452 because hams are split up enough between digital formats. So additional formats mean more splitting up and more division.
I use both DMR and C4FM. DMR is confusing to program and you must program it in order to connect to a talk group. C4FM can be confusing to setup if you aren't using a repeater but. Once you set it up, you don't have to create a list of rooms or a list of users. So, Wires-x is much easier to use for a beginner.
Thanks, Dave. N0QFT
Digital voice modes are "okay." My son and I have tried DMR, D-Star [preferred], and System fusion. The problem with all of them is their complexity when getting setup. Then gateway access can be tricky. We like to use Dstar simplex when traveling in a convoy as it sort of gives us a little privacy. Other than that, we use plain ole analog FM simplex.
What model NexGen hot spot model do you recommend and have there?
Dave, Nexgen has been MIA since 2019. They moved from San Diego to (I believe) AZ and never got set back up. Their last update post was in 2021 and they were still not up and running. I was last in contact with Bobby over a year ago and was still having permit problems. I had ordered a hotspot back in 2019 and was told of the move and problems they were having. It's too bad. They had some nice looking equipment.
Bob WB6TIS
Thanks for bringing me up to date on that.
What do you expect to want from the radio? I have noticed a distinct difference between the typical users of each of the 3 types. D-Star seems to have much more general conversation, lot of regulars on some reflectors, and you can about set your watch by when they show up. More Korean and Japanese operators. DMR has more people that like to do a quick QSO, and log it. Few regulars, less general conversations, more EU and SA users. Wires-x seems alot like just using a local repeater, and talking to locals. general friendly conversations about nothing important.
Sound quality is better on D-Star and Wires-x/fusion. DMR is not nearly as easy to listen to.
I like D-Star best, but locally we have an abundance of Yaesu repeaters
I know that fusion is not considered a 'true' digital signal the carrier is still analog ..the FCC still considers that 'data communications' is D-Star or DMR true digital frequency modes ?
I’m really hopeful an open source project takes off - like M17. However, it’s DMR for me. Yaesu Wires-X is too closed off and proprietary, D-Star has poor audio quality on older radios and the registration process is convoluted. DMR and P25 are fun to experiment with and learn.
Whenever I get asked this question I simply tell them to get an openshark 4 hotspot. It has cross mode between all of them. DMR is what all my friends use, but I get on DMR servers with my c4fm yaesu radio. Or I can use my DMR handheld and hop on, Dstar. So you do not have to be limited to one mode depending on your radio. But if you don’t want to spend an additional $350 for rhe hotspot and you just want to use local repeaters, then it’s best to choose what is most prevalent in your area
Yes, most hotspots work with all the modes.
To be honest with you, it’s so frustrating that it makes it easy to put away. Hotspots are very challenging to program and work right. I think I’m done with digital all together. Yaesu will get a shot because it appears way easier than d star.
@@tony2wheelz408 they can be hard. I have only used the open spot 4 pro. And I was on air in 2-3 minutes with a DMR radio. Yaesu just the same. But like you pointed out, Dstar is a pain and I haven’t been able to connect yet. If you haven’t got a hotpot yet, I recommend the shark. It’s worth the money if you really want to use digital modes
The BridgeCom is twice the price of the Nex-Gen
When this guy said that DMR is Chinese, he obviously has no idea what he was talking about. The protocol was developed by Motorola and is the standard for commercial radio systems in the United States with the exception of government which uses a P 25 standard.
I reject all those modes... seems to me we just need a std like Paket that can work across all manufactures radios like a TNC
M17 which is completely open, but is a long way off
Clearly the winner will be whichever mode the pornography industry adopts
D-Star is by far more a comprehensive mode, Audio quality is superb using a 9700 and SP 21 speaker, if you want to do voice, then theres all the digital data functionality which every one forgets D-RATS chat, File send and receive, 23cm DD, Web browsing via an ID-1 and 23cm DD repeater Doesnt even compare to a cheap chinese DMR hand held No other manufacturer has the balls to do it. Very few You tubers have the technical ability to set up 23cm DD and demonstrate it properly and no D-Star IS NOT proprietry
We get it dude you do not like the Chinese we get it now can you talk about ham radio. 🤷♂️
I like your comment 😅
De VU2RZA
Dave, thanks for the video. Dstar is inferior to DMR in audio quality. DMR is not Chinese but the basic radio hardware used and programmed by Americans and all other hams may have been manufactured in china. DMR mode is gaining huge popularity in America and elsewhere but I’m not sure that Dstar is as much. 73 N8TJ
Analog is the winner. Digital is GARBAGE.
We get it you don't like the Chinese holy hell chill out. DMR, yaesu system fusion,YSF in short is the answer. In five years those will be the two most popular digital modes. And I would also speculate along with m17. DMR my opinion is the best out of them all,you get two time slots in other words you can get two channels on one frequency. Two's better than one. And as far as the audio quality goes, for all intent and purpose, DMR and fusion pretty much sound the same fusion sounds a hair better but it's like comparing apples to oranges. System fusion is a hair better in audio quality but not much so it's barely noticeable.
Now on the subject of d-star if you got a thousand bucks 1500 to drop on the radio and all the accessories are going to need for it that's fine but most hands don't so for the average ham don't even bother it's not worth your time.
See the above comment. I stand by my video.
DMR is not fit for Ham use, it's insanely complicated to setup and the sound quality is bad, D-star isn't quite so complicated but sound quality is still not good.
Fusion is designed for Ham use, all you do is set the hotspot or repeater frequency, press wires-x and you're in, it's as simple as that.
Fusion sound quality is the best out of the 2 modes.
What I have tried since is a much better solution ( at least for me ) is Blue DV.
I got the DV MEga DVStick30 dongle and used this for a while, then I discovered the DVMega Globetrotter, this sits in my Mothers QTH because at the time I had no fixed line internet, it needs a static IP and then all I have to do is use my Android phone and set the ip to the globetrotter and I no longer have to use a dongle.
Blue DV for Windows is absolutely amazing, no code plugs and I can monitor all 3 modes, DMR, D-Star and fusion all at the same time and when I see one become active I can switch to that mode.
The sound quality is also much better, both TX and RX.
Funny, I have always heard that Fusion's sound quality is inferior to D-Star's. Never actually used Fusion, but D-Star often sounds like the other party is sitting next to you.
DMR is universally condemned as the worst quality sound.
@@Ben--David The Kenwood TH-D74A actually sounds good from what I remember but in general I find most D-star radios sound inferior to Fusion.
DMR is a real pain in the ass but the radios can be got cheap, one huge issue with DMR is that the audio levels vary tremendously so when one ham sounds quiet another is too loud so I find myself having to mess with the volume constantly while dealing with horrible sound quality.
I suppose one thing with D-Star I notice is that the volume level doesn't seem to vary nearly as much as DMR, quality aside this actually makes a big difference because a lot of DMR radios have very hot mics.
@@o00scorpion00o With D-Star the mic level should be set around 10-15% with most radios, otherwise, they are overdriven.
DMR quality varies depending on what radio. The higher quality Motorola isn’t Chinese cheap radios.
Ask yourself, if put in an emergency situation. You had the 3 digital modes avail. You have the 3 radios. You need to deply an operator. You need to just hand the operator a radio to program right there in the spot. Which would you choose. That means radio setup right there on the spot with no computer. Now the scenario is moderate to advance operator. Not a Paper "Extra" This opens up the possibility for all modes. Especially via hotspot. You cant say one mode is superior to the other. Hes right, it all comes down to what is avail to you. Then to those with hotspots, the world is your oyster. I have and use all 3 modes daily I love them all. Why only use 1 mode? Its not a Betamax/VHS war. Im not sure though about dstar growing. Unless repeater setup and gateway setup get simplified. You need to be able to setup a radio right there on the spot and hit the repeater or at least simplex. yes I know you can do that on dstar. (Simplex) 73 de K5ORN
ID 5100 ID-1 for data
@@3TQVK I need more data. Please share