Thanks Stacy, great episode ….you’ve just described my body of elders !! I’m fading… no elder has bothered with my family since the pandemic and we’re so grateful!!! Going to the odd zoom meeting but trying to find the courage to completely stop attending. I doubt the narcissists will notice we’re missing!!!! Keep the videos coming!
This made me think of all the elders from my old congregation. I remember how cold and judgmental most were and then we had 2 elders move in that were younger and kinder and outgoing. The old school elders did everything to undermine them. No wonder they moved away after 5 years or so. The personality of the elders really does impact the congregation. Thanks for the episode!
Only 15 minutes in but that "I'm Luke Skywalker" just hit different. Wasn't an elder but being an MS made me feel like I was really a JW Superstar. Played it humble but it made my head swell as a young person. Because that's all you've really got in this organization. Very troubling in retrospect
Thanks Darth...I was an MS before an elder and with the conditioning, I thought I had 'arrived' as well....LOL, as a HUGE Star Wars geek that lived a few blocks from George Lucas as a kid (and Industrial Light & Magic).....I can't help but use my Star Wars analogies!
Excellent descriptions of the different elder types. I was definitely "loving elder" for the 2 years that I lasted...people over rules, overwhelmed, given lots of public talks and the jobs that no other elders wanted to do, and ended up going "apostate." Thankfully, I stepped down once I saw that my wife was being neglected, now we are both completely out of the org and never happier.
I'm so glad you got out! 2 years.....I'm jealous! And you're a good husband. You saw the affect it was having on your wife.....I was more brainwashed. Thanks for listening!
Spot on Stacy. I was born and raised in the org; left when I was 63 so everything you have said is oh so true. Due to my first husband's job we moved frequently so I was in many different congregations around the US.
I wanted to be appointed an Elder so bad. I felt it would show how much Jehovah loved me and show the congregation how spiritual I was . I lacked the ability to do the right stuff to be appointed. I guess in retrospect it was a blessing
A MASSIVE blessing....however, I will say, that I wish every man could see the elders in action. They either join them.....or run. It's a massive eye opener
I was kinda raised a JW, although my parents never got baptized, they didn't object to my doing it when I was a teenager, and the net effect was that I was indoctrinated as a child, when indoctrination works best. Problem was, I guess I was smart -- at any rate I got a scholarship to a premium university, and determined to go. While I still practiced my religion, it was made clear to me that I would never be deemed mature enough to be an elder. Back then college was discouraged; I understand that the attitude has since gotten stronger, but I was young enough to think it didn't matter so long as I pleased Jehovah. My apostasy came from other sources (learning a little science and a lot of history), culminating in a proctor in a Bible course I took sitting me down and patiently showing me dozens of things -- actually more like hundreds -- of things that rendered the Bible unsustainable except on faith, and I accept the premise that faith is sand without a rational foundation. Anyway, there was an Elder in that congregation, a wonderful black man who had resigned from being CO voluntarily because he felt his leading an entirely white congregation led to occasional stumbling. I always admired his maturity and love.
I'm glad you were able to navigate the good old 'no college' counsel... Unfortunately, I obeyed and I've been resentful every since :( There are always kind people, including elders, that are trapped in this cult....I had a few in my life as well. There is always something to learn from this experience!
Excellent summary Stacy. I called it the good 'ol boy's club. Never made it in, ended up stepping down as a MS. You answered alot of the questions of how the elder body operates. Thanks again!
You never cease to amaze me! This video is packed with truth regarding these very flawed, though some sincere, men, who have no clue they are deep in a cult that is misleading so many, to say the least, about the book they supposedly love and cherish. I have 4 siblings that are lost to this cult, and it tears away at me that they are so deaf, dumb and blind. Sorry for being so wordy. I just wanted to convey my gratitude to you for your well researched information, seasoned with humor and empathy.
Stacy, you were right on point about every elder type. We had exactly every elder type you listed on our body of elders. Hearing this from you put everything into perspective. Thank you for covering this.
This was an excellent episode. Gave me lots to think about. I will definitely listen to this one again. My guts are in a knot. But it really doesn’t surprise me. I was a witness for 58 years and just faded. So many things bothered me but I just accepted it. Thanks for sharing.
As you say it, our experiences are different, especially if you grew up in a fatherless family. I was born in the 50´s and in that time they hadn t yet reactivated the elders arrangement. Some men in the congregation were servants. Even the CO was called circuit servant. One of them was the congregation servant ( later congregation overseer). My dad was one. My uncles also. Knowing them also in their life outside the congregation, I never hold them for something very special as judges or princes:) I saw the additional work, the permanent stress to be ready for preaching, meetings, assemblies. At that time they hadn t wrote so many rules and hence they had less judicial committees to manage. It was a time to fight Babylon the Great, and her false teachings:) sometimes, the jws went as a squad to territories far away, and the local catholic priest warned the ppl at church! the JW were coming with their heresy about trinity, hellfire, immortal soul… and some ppl chased them with forks. As a kid I saw my parents as fighters for the truth but not as heroes dominating the brothers and sisters. Same for the CO. He and his wife used to live one or two weeks in our house or my uncle’s house, even on their free Monday, we saw them as family members. I knew that I would become eventually an elder, that seemed a normal way to me, but I never thought I would be in some way special or higher ranked or the young sisters would prefer me because I would be an elder. ( by the way, if a sister wants a husband who can share everything with her, or a very attentive and caring father to her children, she d better not marry an elder!)
Ah yes, a great snapshot into how the entire 'arrangement' evolved. So much to unpack there....but it's often elder's children that are doing the hardest eye rolls....we need to talk about how it all effects the elder himself!
Hey there! I've got some catching up to do, being a mechanic in Quebec is absolutely insane in November, seeing as the law says you MUST have winter tires by December 1. So I neglected your podcast. But this one....oh boy, great stuff! I'm going to use it for tomorrow's video. The worse elder I ever had was a guy by the name of Charles (NEVER call me Charlie!!) Strong. He showed up out of nowhere, and within 2 months everything was topsy turvy in the congregation. Our presiding overseer, who I loved and respected, was taken out first. Then there was a slew of disfellowshippings. Other elders either quit or got removed. By the end, it was a Strong dictatorship...Then he left, never to be seen again. I spoke with people from other congregations who had the dubious "privilege" of having him, and he never stayed anywhere for more than one year, but every place he went suffered tremendous upheaval. I'm convinced he was a "hatchet man" sent by Watchtower to "clean up" congregatons. Total asshole.
That was a common thing back in 30+ years ago. There would be a grim reaper elder or CO sent into congregations and things would never be the same. That is a wild story and I remember similar stories in the states.
Such good insights Stacy as always. You are a natural born teacher, and so engaging to listen to. The concepts you unpack are so interesting and thought provoking, even though I have been out for many years. Your podcasts are actually very therapeutic, as I'm not sure we ever fully deprogram ourselves. It's quite the journey! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughtful insights with us all.
Hi, I loved this episode. It made me think a lot about the elders in my congregation. I was born into the cult, so they watched me grow up and go through adolescence (they never failed to remind me how hyperactive and loud I was in the kingdom hall). When I left the organization, to my surprise, (taking out the case of one elder lover who flipped out and suggested to my mother that she extort me not to leave) the other elders I talked to took it well and treated me with dignity. Unfortunately, as you mention at the end, I've been hearing lately about how people I care about have been acted unfairly. I love the format of your podcast, your commentary is interesting, funny and beautifully sarcastic. Although English is not my first language, with the help of youtube's automatic translator, I really enjoyed this episode.
Thank you so much Victoria! Oh yes, most elders don't know how to deal with children or their challenges. I'm glad you were treated well when leaving. That is surprising! Most poor on the guilt trip. Thank you so much for listening and the compliments....I love all the different styles of those that have left the org; lots of personalities!
Appreciate your candid look into an elder body. In the 20 years I was an elder I served on 3 different elder bodies. 2 points #1 I served with guy who was a congregation servant before the elder arrangement of the 1970s. We went nose to nose repeatedly he thought it was a dictatorship. These are the guys who always said it's in print but could never produce the goods. I actually enjoyed the man, it was a challenge at every elders meeting. I was the theocratic school over for 20 years. From my training from the time I was six on the school I was an excellent reader. I chaired assemblies many times and to do that you read a script. This guy was so pissed at me once and told me I was the worst reader he had ever heard. I looked at him and said have you read Is 32:1,2 recently. I thought his head was going to pop off.😆
LOL LOL....I LOVE that you said that to him!! Unreal!! My good man, you've had a longer elder experience than I did. Incredible. Did you ever think we would see a day where they mothballed the Theo School?? And no more Book Study? It's incredible. That elder sounds like he was slightly threatened by you LOL
Even long before I woke up, I always made sure to stay away from the elders in my congregation. Two especially were very full of themselves, just like you mention. I never thought about how these scriptures make them so proud and haughty!
I was often annoyed that people would take the credit away from me and my personal brain that allowed me to generally not an ass, and give credit to the watchtower for teaching me how to be this way. Finally after leaving can claim this for the personal self esteem. No longer to I have to keep reminding myself that I’m garbage that doesn’t even deserve to be garbage. I was reminded of this when in the episode you talked of the elder that was a good guy not because of the watchtower method, but in spite of it.
I was explaining about the organization, now, throwing elders under the bus, just, today. Thank you for being part of a collective consciousness of, us, jw survivors.
They aren't shepherds.....they are gestapo. And most of them aren't qualified to lead a boy scout troop, much less people on the brink of a fireball shower
@@survivingparadisepodcast 😄 😂. True about their credentials. When I called bethel a few years ago to hear what kind of excuses and explanations they have for my 'why' questions, I declared that wt was a corporation operated by predators/opportunist/freudsters/criminals accepting free labour and blood money for selling something to ignorants/naive s/hostages that they could never deliver. But that is what all the religious cults/secret societies do. Only thing is that every doctrine provided nothing of benefit to them. It was everything which exploited and disenfranchised, even kills essentially. If only you could access the 1945 watchtower charter where it names JEHOVAH as under the kingdom of God and Christ Jesus. Even the Mormon. Joseph Smith is a signing officer. That dates of the amended charters prove that they were just in association with the zion$t(deliberate. misspell) political regime including the British crown and other masters of mankind. It states Almighty Good JEHOVAH (^^good with a capital g, not God). It oroved tone that UT was a schemed enterprise which had to get religiosity status off the backs of the ignorants/children of mentally umbalanced/violent/narcisitic jw
@@survivingparadisepodcast Look how the govbody trip over themselves to get jw to understand that the governments are approved by God now when all the years prior we were taught/convinced/indoctrinated that the govnts can not be trusted and satan's domain. Total 360 because wt is owned by the investors/corpatocracy/globalists. Every bit a part of this world against the cautions of Christ Jesus otherwise HE could have accepted to lead the governments when Satan allegedly offered them to Him.
Amazing episode ,,,,, although let me tell you,,,, it should have come with a PTSD warning! LOL I was teleported to the 3 congregations I was a part of during my 22 years within the society, and boy oh boy ,,,, your descriptions were certainly on point, I remember all of these elders by first and last name, their wives, their children. And I think you were definitely the last type.
I have concluded over many years that the majority of Elders are Sales/Managers. From the time I was a Kid to an adult. Comments were always of Performance. Nice Comment, Good talk. Can you please send me your service report, can we meet with your family for an exchange of encouragement . Buy actually, friendship just like a manager at work they are not your friend. If they don't invite you over, go out for some recreation , they are not your friend, just doing their job. If you move you will never hear from them again....that hurts.
💯 correct. In fact ones leaving should process those facts you say first it’ll make exiting so much less traumatic. This is a place of employment so they do not care if you have moved departments or left as you are just an employee number and have no impact on their managerial targets.
I have crazy story about an elder :D TL, DR I read a textbook for elders that I borrowed from an elder when I was a Bible student. As I was studying with the witnesses, I asked the husband (who was the elder) of the sister conducting the study if they had any guidelines so that each elder would not feel left to himself what decisions to make, what to do. He told me about this book and showed me the cover, said it was a special manual for the elders only. I asked if it was secret and if JWs, apart from the elders, could not read it. He stated that it is not forbidden, but only the elders need it, so others do not read it. I asked if I could borrow this book and he lent it to me, but he said reading it is rather boring and useless for non-elders, that it is like reading secular laws for non-lawyers. I read it and found that it really is boring and useless for non-elders. I missed these nuances about CSA. It was in 2007 or 2008, so maybe it was previous edition of manual.
@@survivingparadisepodcast He also assumed that he could clarify my doubts, not ignore them. If I showed him some non-organizational source about the Bible or about JWs, he had no problem reading or watching it. I wonder if he's still an elder or if he's a witness at all.
Nice podcast there Stacey,,,, listening to it brought me back to memory lane at National Street Spanish congragation, there was this elder Osvaldo Vasallo,,, just a beautiful person you can go to him and confide in him, gorgeous heart, like ones of the type you've mentioned, Luis Vargas, he was very kind but very strict, I think he is the political type you've mentioned, funny thing he was disfellowedshiped for womanizing lol, had affairs with women from different congratulations 😂, then there was Jeffrey Jackson yes, he was a bethelite, very kind, a bit on the strict side, there was this other one also a bethelite l think he is the humorous type you've mentioned can't recall his name but do remember him complementing me on a talk I gave,, didn't deal with him much, then Contreras, yes another bethelite he wasn't bad but like one you mentioned would look at how the sisters were dressed and all, never heard of no child molestation but slot of sleeping around, at my old congregation, well again great podcast, till next week.
Thank you David! Ah yes, there are so many stories! There are some good men....they usually end up exhausted and burnt out. We had several elder wife swapping stories as well. Just a bunch of dudes with titles!
So, Stacey, I definitely know you and was in your congregation in the 2000s, I was even briefly in your Saturday Morning Bookstudy group if I recall correctly. Listening to this Podcast I think I was able to pin down at least a few of the specific brothers' identities you were describing, most especially the Patriarch Elder and the Loving Elder, but some of the others too. I have reason not to use my real name publicly, Thomas Turner being my *nom de guerre* for UA-cam. Where can I send you a private DM so I can see if you remember me? I'd love to catch up over coffee with you some day!
I was disfellowshipped and one elder made it his mission to take the piss out of me for 1 year and 3 months. when I first handed in my letter to be reinstated he said to me "You know how long it takes for people to be baptised? Years, it applies to my situation" i was left shocked at what he said. Because he was one of those elders that would go on the platform and say shit like "Elders are approachable and trustworthy". This elder made me HATE the false, man made, out of date religion. At the age of 31, I am currently unlearning all the indoctrination from birth and re-learning how to enjoy life rather. To those of you who have doubts, like how i did when i was a child however they win through fear, that is your intuition telling you that something is not right, listen to that voice. Also, you missed out on one point Shannon, you forgot about the elder who likes to play favouritism, that same elder who "punished" me during my disfellowshipping, when i was a teen i got drunk and he made sure a judicial committee took place and i got publicly reproved. His mother plans a bethel trip, she gets drunk and nothing happens to her.
Please be sure to take care of yourself, they will NOT do it! Very good point on favoritism....there is a great deal of that in every decision made! Be good to yourself, the indoctrination is strong....but you can do it!
Elders are police - spy - punisher in 1, the false teachers governing body clowns even has the audacity to authorize elders as confessorius & jurist, confess your sins, be judged & be punished accordingly, a pact exclusive between an individual & the Creator. (Mat.6:6; 1John 1:9) This level of corruption & dictatorship is outrageous, how sick is that?
I have personally observed how congregations will reflect the personalities of the elder body. It's interesting how policies sent down from the org are NOT consistently enforced/encouraged in every congregation. A congregation with a relatively younger elder body will be rife with partying and alcohol use. A congregation with ancient old mummies as an elder body will be extremely conservative in comparison. It was a "gonna clean this place up elder" that ran rampant over the existing body and managed to get me disfellowshipped, the first time, for something I'd done before baptism. One of the patriarch elders actually stepped down after that charade. That obnoxious elder was only around for a little while and was never popular. Just curious, because this happened to me when he read my reinstatement, has anyone ever heard a reinstatement that was then followed by EVERY single restriction you would still be under? It confused everyone there and people weren't sure after the meeting if I'd actually been reinstated or not. He was a real a##hole.
Spot on. Great comparison. The younger elders/congregations tend to be a lot looser than the old timers. I was in a congregation with a mix, but it had it's own 'personality'
My aunty's are married to elders and my mum married a minersterial servant almost elder but died. They are all narcissistic abusive men in my personal experience
@Comment-Eri step dad sexualy abused me also and I know of quite a few others my age who experienced this in a couple of congregations i grew up in. My uncle helped cover it up in my case.
@Jdub NoMo I'm in the 🇬🇧 but iv been thinking about doing this however most of my family are still in, my mums on the brink of waking up since lockdown so don't want to rock the boat just yet
@@survivingparadisepodcast Thankyou and I was 15 when I finally left. Now 36 my life is so much better than being stuck in. I'm glad people are seeing the real truth and leaving thanks to channels like this
I always thought the "elder arrangement" was a pile of BS. It was great for a lot of small minded men to flex their muscles. Total Foolishness! I just love the fact that "they" have No more power over me...😀 "get away from me you workers of lawlessness" Thank you, as awlays Stacy...much love my brother ❤️ Brian Gibbs
I never saw the depressed elder but definitely a few power-trip guys. We had the tail-tucked-between-the-legs elders who became secretaries. I'm so glad I never made it to elder, I was bad at blindly following rules, because I would have been beat down.
The elders in the congregations are imperfect men used as shepherds to assist its members. They are spiritually qualified men that give evidence they are directed by holy spirit, and that they manifest its fruitage in their life. Paul lists the nine aspects of the fruitage of the spirit as “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (Gal. 5:22, 23) Such overseers are required to be a refreshment to the brothers and help unite the congregation. Their course of conduct and the fruits of their labors show that they are appointed by holy spirit.-Acts 20:28. It seems like some JWs forgot what it means to be balanced and they lose their ability to endure. Some elders have even become like the pharisees in their overconfidence, showy display and rule-making.
It is my honest opinion that a loving elder can never last in the org. He cares so deeply but after years of being a punching bag. He is bombarded weekly to be an enforcer of rules not a lover of the sheep. After being asked to judge every motive of the sheep. He becomes a shell of what he was. Many times he asks to be removed. It is burn out at its finest!
Elders are not chosen by holy Spirit. An elder fired my brother for having cancer as he lay dying in the cancer unit. My brother worked for him for 15 years. My brother recovered and the guy had already replaced him and he came out of cancer with no good paying job. Brotherly love, right? The elder threw my brother away when he became of no financial use to him.
@@survivingparadisepodcast Not fun at all. Over time He got burned out and turned in the "Privilege" and became quite weak spiritually. Being an Elder was rough in this Florida Spanish Cong filled with drunks, adulterers, wife abusers, mentally ill (lots) individuals. As much as they all, even the CO tried for Him to not leave, He couldn't take the emotional pressure any longer. I watched Him become depressed as He just couldn't find proper balance between the ever growing JW responsibilities + His physically demanding secular job + home/family life; something had to give, and He chose Eldership. I was sooo very happy!!! At this time we're considered "Spiritually Weak" and I'm blamed for not "helping Him". Actually, I am quite happy in my PIMO life, with Hubby who I believe is a PIMO but He just doesn't know it yet. 🤣🤣🤣
@@DY2784 I'm so sorry! I've seen many men chewed up and thrown away. It's very common. I'm so glad you found a less stressful way to exist if you decide to stay. LOL, sorry to laugh, but the spiritually weak thing just won't die.....but they don't judge people, right? LOL
#2 I call the how in hell is he an elder, Dopey elder. On every body I served on there was one of these guys. I believe the reason they were elders is because simply the body didn't know what to do with them. The 3 I served with had pioneer wives and were great guys and been witnesses for decades. But Dopey!!! We assigned one to conduct the cbs on Tuesday night at the kh. The book revelation its grand climax. I was his assistant. He actually quit coming to the book study. He called a said would you mind conducting. When he did show up he would bring fruit pies to eat after the meeting. He would actually pass them around like the bread. Except everybody ate the pies. Every one of these guys would poop themselves if they had to deal with anything meaty or deep. That being said 1 Dopey elder is still my buddy. Don't ask Don't tell. Maybe Dopey elders got it figured out?
LOL....I wish I had thought of that: Dopey Elder.....HILARIOUS!!! I was an MS with an elder that didn't want to conduct that book.....I ended up doing it as an elder. We would often laugh our way through the study. Those stupid paragraphs that were nothing by verses out of Revelation with a question that said 'what does Revelation 1:1 say'......WE JUST READ IT!!
@@survivingparadisepodcast you know I was a servant for 9 1/2 years and I know I was never considered to be an elder because I always or most times questioned the elders. I once went to the CO meeting, elders and servants with out a tie. I wore my turtleneck and when the CO saw me, He said, what is that? I simply said to him that I didn’t want to bring it tie. he almost didn’t let me in to the meeting so I told him, “I tell you what! I’ll go back home put on the tie and I’ll come back to the meeting. he gave me an angry Look and said, “come in and sit down” and that was it. I was about 22-23 I think.. Hahahha. I’ve always had a problem with their petty rules.
The Annual Meeting video.....my god.....they are encouraging brothers in their early 20's to be elders. They're openly begging them in their EARLY 20's!!!!!!
@@survivingparadisepodcast oh geez. 20 year old me can barely organize the car groups when I was pioneer. Now they are marriage, depression, teen issue counselors. What a Disaster!
My x wife was hanging out with the sister's and getting drunk all the time and when she was home getting drunk and having a affair on the internet that was the kind of jw she was
Thanks Stacy, great episode ….you’ve just described my body of elders !!
I’m fading… no elder has bothered with my family since the pandemic and we’re so grateful!!! Going to the odd zoom meeting but trying to find the courage to completely stop attending.
I doubt the narcissists will notice we’re missing!!!! Keep the videos coming!
Thank you!! You made my day; I'm always SO HAPPY to see people are making their way to the door!! Stay strong out there!
@Comment-Eri ah yes, the 'scary WT study'....they always know when to drop those!
Same here, no one really cared and I was so grateful for that. I left and went to another congregation 3 minutes frame me. I only attend once a month.
@@beautyRest1 good I'm glad you're taking care of you.....because they rarely care
@Comment-Eri glad I missed that wt !! There’s about 40 from the congregation on zoom most meetings. Good luck with fading my friend ❤
This made me think of all the elders from my old congregation. I remember how cold and judgmental most were and then we had 2 elders move in that were younger and kinder and outgoing. The old school elders did everything to undermine them. No wonder they moved away after 5 years or so. The personality of the elders really does impact the congregation.
Thanks for the episode!
So true Joanna! The younger, kinder guys tend to bail out early.....or become like the rest of them!
loved the story about the elder sticking images of the governing body on his fridge. Talk about hero worship!
TRUE story....it was insane to see with your own eyes!
Only 15 minutes in but that "I'm Luke Skywalker" just hit different. Wasn't an elder but being an MS made me feel like I was really a JW Superstar. Played it humble but it made my head swell as a young person. Because that's all you've really got in this organization. Very troubling in retrospect
Thanks Darth...I was an MS before an elder and with the conditioning, I thought I had 'arrived' as well....LOL, as a HUGE Star Wars geek that lived a few blocks from George Lucas as a kid (and Industrial Light & Magic).....I can't help but use my Star Wars analogies!
Excellent descriptions of the different elder types. I was definitely "loving elder" for the 2 years that I lasted...people over rules, overwhelmed, given lots of public talks and the jobs that no other elders wanted to do, and ended up going "apostate." Thankfully, I stepped down once I saw that my wife was being neglected, now we are both completely out of the org and never happier.
I'm so glad you got out! 2 years.....I'm jealous! And you're a good husband. You saw the affect it was having on your wife.....I was more brainwashed. Thanks for listening!
Spot on Stacy. I was born and raised in the org; left when I was 63 so everything you have said is oh so true. Due to my first husband's job we moved frequently so I was in many different congregations around the US.
Thank you terryann.....It's always good to know I wasn't crazy :) Wow, I bet you have some stories!
@@survivingparadisepodcast OMG do I have some stories. I've seen so much and experienced so much also.
I really appreciate the Monday morning talks. ♥️♥️♥️
LOL, thanks Steve....sometimes they feel like a 'talk' :)
@@survivingparadisepodcast you are helping people ♥️♥️♥️
@@stevebenoit6649 thanks Steve!
I wanted to be appointed an Elder so bad. I felt it would show how much Jehovah loved me and show the congregation how spiritual I was . I lacked the ability to do the right stuff to be appointed. I guess in retrospect it was a blessing
A MASSIVE blessing....however, I will say, that I wish every man could see the elders in action. They either join them.....or run. It's a massive eye opener
I was kinda raised a JW, although my parents never got baptized, they didn't object to my doing it when I was a teenager, and the net effect was that I was indoctrinated as a child, when indoctrination works best. Problem was, I guess I was smart -- at any rate I got a scholarship to a premium university, and determined to go. While I still practiced my religion, it was made clear to me that I would never be deemed mature enough to be an elder. Back then college was discouraged; I understand that the attitude has since gotten stronger, but I was young enough to think it didn't matter so long as I pleased Jehovah. My apostasy came from other sources (learning a little science and a lot of history), culminating in a proctor in a Bible course I took sitting me down and patiently showing me dozens of things -- actually more like hundreds -- of things that rendered the Bible unsustainable except on faith, and I accept the premise that faith is sand without a rational foundation. Anyway, there was an Elder in that congregation, a wonderful black man who had resigned from being CO voluntarily because he felt his leading an entirely white congregation led to occasional stumbling. I always admired his maturity and love.
I'm glad you were able to navigate the good old 'no college' counsel... Unfortunately, I obeyed and I've been resentful every since :( There are always kind people, including elders, that are trapped in this cult....I had a few in my life as well. There is always something to learn from this experience!
I haven’t even started watching yet, but the title brought a huge smile to my face already, I know I’m gonna love this episode…
Thanks Rebekah! I hope it makes you laugh a little! :)
Excellent summary Stacy. I called it the good 'ol boy's club. Never made it in, ended up stepping down as a MS. You answered alot of the questions of how the elder body operates. Thanks again!
Thanks kevinator! Definitely a good 'ol boy's club!
You never cease to amaze me! This video is packed with truth regarding these very flawed, though some sincere, men, who have no clue they are deep in a cult that is misleading so many, to say the least, about the book they supposedly love and cherish.
I have 4 siblings that are lost to this cult, and it tears away at me that they are so deaf, dumb and blind.
Sorry for being so wordy. I just wanted to convey my gratitude to you for your well researched information, seasoned with humor and empathy.
So true! You can relate! Thank you so much for the thoughts and listening.....you get it!
Just in time. Needed something to jumpstart my Monday workweek -_-
Thanks Fade.....I hope you have some laughs!
I cannot imagine being under such tyranny. It sounds exactly like the gulags: spy, rat, punish, repeat.
It's truly suffocating in many JW congregations
Another great episode Stacey! Thank you
thank you !!
Stacy, you were right on point about every elder type. We had exactly every elder type you listed on our body of elders. Hearing this from you put everything into perspective. Thank you for covering this.
Thank you AJ!
This was an excellent episode. Gave me lots to think about. I will definitely listen to this one again. My guts are in a knot. But it really doesn’t surprise me. I was a witness for 58 years and just faded. So many things bothered me but I just accepted it. Thanks for sharing.
big hugs Brenda! Glad you helped in any way! Be kind to yourself.... we all have those scars, but healing is a process!
Very interesting! Sounds like these shepherds would like to think they're working in rolling green fields, but in fact it's a factory farm.
truth!!
Thanks! Your podcasts are so validating and encouraging to me! Your insight is admirable too.
Thank you Pamela!
As you say it, our experiences are different, especially if you grew up in a fatherless family. I was born in the 50´s and in that time they hadn t yet reactivated the elders arrangement. Some men in the congregation were servants. Even the CO was called circuit servant. One of them was the congregation servant ( later congregation overseer). My dad was one. My uncles also. Knowing them also in their life outside the congregation, I never hold them for something very special as judges or princes:) I saw the additional work, the permanent stress to be ready for preaching, meetings, assemblies. At that time they hadn t wrote so many rules and hence they had less judicial committees to manage. It was a time to fight Babylon the Great, and her false teachings:) sometimes, the jws went as a squad to territories far away, and the local catholic priest warned the ppl at church! the JW were coming with their heresy about trinity, hellfire, immortal soul… and some ppl chased them with forks. As a kid I saw my parents as fighters for the truth but not as heroes dominating the brothers and sisters. Same for the CO. He and his wife used to live one or two weeks in our house or my uncle’s house, even on their free Monday, we saw them as family members. I knew that I would become eventually an elder, that seemed a normal way to me, but I never thought I would be in some way special or higher ranked or the young sisters would prefer me because I would be an elder. ( by the way, if a sister wants a husband who can share everything with her, or a very attentive and caring father to her children, she d better not marry an elder!)
Ah yes, a great snapshot into how the entire 'arrangement' evolved. So much to unpack there....but it's often elder's children that are doing the hardest eye rolls....we need to talk about how it all effects the elder himself!
Hey there! I've got some catching up to do, being a mechanic in Quebec is absolutely insane in November, seeing as the law says you MUST have winter tires by December 1. So I neglected your podcast. But this one....oh boy, great stuff! I'm going to use it for tomorrow's video.
The worse elder I ever had was a guy by the name of Charles (NEVER call me Charlie!!) Strong. He showed up out of nowhere, and within 2 months everything was topsy turvy in the congregation. Our presiding overseer, who I loved and respected, was taken out first. Then there was a slew of disfellowshippings. Other elders either quit or got removed. By the end, it was a Strong dictatorship...Then he left, never to be seen again. I spoke with people from other congregations who had the dubious "privilege" of having him, and he never stayed anywhere for more than one year, but every place he went suffered tremendous upheaval. I'm convinced he was a "hatchet man" sent by Watchtower to "clean up" congregatons. Total asshole.
That was a common thing back in 30+ years ago. There would be a grim reaper elder or CO sent into congregations and things would never be the same. That is a wild story and I remember similar stories in the states.
Amazing episode! I enjoy listening to your podcast while driving to work even though its 4 in the morning.
Thank you so much! Drive safe!
Such good insights Stacy as always. You are a natural born teacher, and so engaging to listen to. The concepts you unpack are so interesting and thought provoking, even though I have been out for many years. Your podcasts are actually very therapeutic, as I'm not sure we ever fully deprogram ourselves. It's quite the journey! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughtful insights with us all.
Thank you so much MoonSong, I truly appreciate the kind words!
I was recommended your podcast on a Reddit thread and I am so glad I started listening! I am only 4 episodes in but holy smokes I am mind blown
Thank you Krista, I appreciate you listening!
Hi, I loved this episode. It made me think a lot about the elders in my congregation. I was born into the cult, so they watched me grow up and go through adolescence (they never failed to remind me how hyperactive and loud I was in the kingdom hall). When I left the organization, to my surprise, (taking out the case of one elder lover who flipped out and suggested to my mother that she extort me not to leave) the other elders I talked to took it well and treated me with dignity.
Unfortunately, as you mention at the end, I've been hearing lately about how people I care about have been acted unfairly.
I love the format of your podcast, your commentary is interesting, funny and beautifully sarcastic.
Although English is not my first language, with the help of youtube's automatic translator, I really enjoyed this episode.
Thank you so much Victoria! Oh yes, most elders don't know how to deal with children or their challenges. I'm glad you were treated well when leaving. That is surprising! Most poor on the guilt trip. Thank you so much for listening and the compliments....I love all the different styles of those that have left the org; lots of personalities!
Appreciate your candid look into an elder body. In the 20 years I was an elder I served on 3 different elder bodies. 2 points #1 I served with guy who was a congregation servant before the elder arrangement of the 1970s. We went nose to nose repeatedly he thought it was a dictatorship. These are the guys who always said it's in print but could never produce the goods. I actually enjoyed the man, it was a challenge at every elders meeting. I was the theocratic school over for 20 years. From my training from the time I was six on the school I was an excellent reader. I chaired assemblies many times and to do that you read a script. This guy was so pissed at me once and told me I was the worst reader he had ever heard. I looked at him and said have you read Is 32:1,2 recently. I thought his head was going to pop off.😆
LOL LOL....I LOVE that you said that to him!! Unreal!! My good man, you've had a longer elder experience than I did. Incredible. Did you ever think we would see a day where they mothballed the Theo School?? And no more Book Study? It's incredible. That elder sounds like he was slightly threatened by you LOL
Even long before I woke up, I always made sure to stay away from the elders in my congregation. Two especially were very full of themselves, just like you mention. I never thought about how these scriptures make them so proud and haughty!
Unfortunately, it's all too common Beauty. It's a pretty standard archetype for JW elders. They are fed this stuff.
I was often annoyed that people would take the credit away from me and my personal brain that allowed me to generally not an ass, and give credit to the watchtower for teaching me how to be this way. Finally after leaving can claim this for the personal self esteem. No longer to I have to keep reminding myself that I’m garbage that doesn’t even deserve to be garbage. I was reminded of this when in the episode you talked of the elder that was a good guy not because of the watchtower method, but in spite of it.
That's right! They try to erode your personal esteem in favor of total dependence on them!
man this is great! Spot on!
I was explaining about the organization, now, throwing elders under the bus, just, today. Thank you for being part of a collective consciousness of, us, jw survivors.
They aren't shepherds.....they are gestapo. And most of them aren't qualified to lead a boy scout troop, much less people on the brink of a fireball shower
@@survivingparadisepodcast 😄 😂. True about their credentials. When I called bethel a few years ago to hear what kind of excuses and explanations they have for my 'why' questions, I declared that wt was a corporation operated by predators/opportunist/freudsters/criminals accepting free labour and blood money for selling something to ignorants/naive s/hostages that they could never deliver. But that is what all the religious cults/secret societies do. Only thing is that every doctrine provided nothing of benefit to them. It was everything which exploited and disenfranchised, even kills essentially. If only you could access the 1945 watchtower charter where it names JEHOVAH as under the kingdom of God and Christ Jesus. Even the Mormon. Joseph Smith is a signing officer. That dates of the amended charters prove that they were just in association with the zion$t(deliberate. misspell) political regime including the British crown and other masters of mankind. It states Almighty Good JEHOVAH (^^good with a capital g, not God). It oroved tone that UT was a schemed enterprise which had to get religiosity status off the backs of the ignorants/children of mentally umbalanced/violent/narcisitic jw
@@survivingparadisepodcast Look how the govbody trip over themselves to get jw to understand that the governments are approved by God now when all the years prior we were taught/convinced/indoctrinated that the govnts can not be trusted and satan's domain. Total 360 because wt is owned by the investors/corpatocracy/globalists. Every bit a part of this world against the cautions of Christ Jesus otherwise HE could have accepted to lead the governments when Satan allegedly offered them to Him.
@@pennybeeflower Good for you! They will never have answers, but you may wake up the person on the other end of the phone!
@@pennybeeflower ...and at the heart of it is something that benefits their 'organization'
Amazing episode ,,,,, although let me tell you,,,, it should have come with a PTSD warning! LOL I was teleported to the 3 congregations I was a part of during my 22 years within the society, and boy oh boy ,,,, your descriptions were certainly on point, I remember all of these elders by first and last name, their wives, their children. And I think you were definitely the last type.
As usual, another amazing podcast! 🙌🏼
Thank you Stefanie, I appreciate you!
I LOVE the LITTLE elder coming to elders meeting with “bound volumes “ 😁😄😃😀👍🏼you are funny…..
LOL, true story.....a stack of bound volumes. He was 'ready' LOL
I have concluded over many years that the majority of Elders are Sales/Managers. From the time I was a Kid to an adult. Comments were always of Performance. Nice Comment, Good talk. Can you please send me your service report, can we meet with your family for an exchange of encouragement . Buy actually, friendship just like a manager at work they are not your friend. If they don't invite you over, go out for some recreation , they are not your friend, just doing their job. If you move you will never hear from them again....that hurts.
Very true. There is almost always an ulterior motive. Very corporate in so many ways
💯 correct. In fact ones leaving should process those facts you say first it’ll make exiting so much less traumatic. This is a place of employment so they do not care if you have moved departments or left as you are just an employee number and have no impact on their managerial targets.
@@broncosbest6441 truth!
Can you do an episode of the archetypes of the microphone brother and the sound brother 😂
LOL LOL, oh man.....those are some stories....I was both as a Ministerial Servant!
I have crazy story about an elder :D
TL, DR I read a textbook for elders that I borrowed from an elder when I was a Bible student.
As I was studying with the witnesses, I asked the husband (who was the elder) of the sister conducting the study if they had any guidelines so that each elder would not feel left to himself what decisions to make, what to do. He told me about this book and showed me the cover, said it was a special manual for the elders only. I asked if it was secret and if JWs, apart from the elders, could not read it. He stated that it is not forbidden, but only the elders need it, so others do not read it. I asked if I could borrow this book and he lent it to me, but he said reading it is rather boring and useless for non-elders, that it is like reading secular laws for non-lawyers. I read it and found that it really is boring and useless for non-elders. I missed these nuances about CSA. It was in 2007 or 2008, so maybe it was previous edition of manual.
Wow! I'm so surprised he let you see 'the book'.....there are CO's that would have removed him for that. Good for you.....it's really boring!
@@survivingparadisepodcast He also assumed that he could clarify my doubts, not ignore them. If I showed him some non-organizational source about the Bible or about JWs, he had no problem reading or watching it. I wonder if he's still an elder or if he's a witness at all.
@@joannaalabaster5916 It's always fascinating to see what happened to some of these guys.
Nice podcast there Stacey,,,, listening to it brought me back to memory lane at National Street Spanish congragation, there was this elder Osvaldo Vasallo,,, just a beautiful person you can go to him and confide in him, gorgeous heart, like ones of the type you've mentioned, Luis Vargas, he was very kind but very strict, I think he is the political type you've mentioned, funny thing he was disfellowedshiped for womanizing lol, had affairs with women from different congratulations 😂, then there was Jeffrey Jackson yes, he was a bethelite, very kind, a bit on the strict side, there was this other one also a bethelite l think he is the humorous type you've mentioned can't recall his name but do remember him complementing me on a talk I gave,, didn't deal with him much, then Contreras, yes another bethelite he wasn't bad but like one you mentioned would look at how the sisters were dressed and all, never heard of no child molestation but slot of sleeping around, at my old congregation, well again great podcast, till next week.
Thank you David! Ah yes, there are so many stories! There are some good men....they usually end up exhausted and burnt out. We had several elder wife swapping stories as well. Just a bunch of dudes with titles!
I laughed so much……it’s soooooo true!!!
LOL, love that you laughed!
So, Stacey, I definitely know you and was in your congregation in the 2000s, I was even briefly in your Saturday Morning Bookstudy group if I recall correctly. Listening to this Podcast I think I was able to pin down at least a few of the specific brothers' identities you were describing, most especially the Patriarch Elder and the Loving Elder, but some of the others too. I have reason not to use my real name publicly, Thomas Turner being my *nom de guerre* for UA-cam. Where can I send you a private DM so I can see if you remember me? I'd love to catch up over coffee with you some day!
Love your voice
Thank you Sharron!! ;)
I was disfellowshipped and one elder made it his mission to take the piss out of me for 1 year and 3 months. when I first handed in my letter to be reinstated he said to me "You know how long it takes for people to be baptised? Years, it applies to my situation" i was left shocked at what he said. Because he was one of those elders that would go on the platform and say shit like "Elders are approachable and trustworthy". This elder made me HATE the false, man made, out of date religion. At the age of 31, I am currently unlearning all the indoctrination from birth and re-learning how to enjoy life rather. To those of you who have doubts, like how i did when i was a child however they win through fear, that is your intuition telling you that something is not right, listen to that voice. Also, you missed out on one point Shannon, you forgot about the elder who likes to play favouritism, that same elder who "punished" me during my disfellowshipping, when i was a teen i got drunk and he made sure a judicial committee took place and i got publicly reproved. His mother plans a bethel trip, she gets drunk and nothing happens to her.
Please be sure to take care of yourself, they will NOT do it! Very good point on favoritism....there is a great deal of that in every decision made! Be good to yourself, the indoctrination is strong....but you can do it!
Elders are police - spy - punisher in 1, the false teachers governing body clowns even has the audacity to authorize elders as confessorius & jurist, confess your sins, be judged & be punished accordingly, a pact exclusive between an individual & the Creator. (Mat.6:6; 1John 1:9) This level of corruption & dictatorship is outrageous, how sick is that?
It's very sick Rafael.....all true. Very few are 'shepherds'
I have personally observed how congregations will reflect the personalities of the elder body. It's interesting how policies sent down from the org are NOT consistently enforced/encouraged in every congregation. A congregation with a relatively younger elder body will be rife with partying and alcohol use. A congregation with ancient old mummies as an elder body will be extremely conservative in comparison.
It was a "gonna clean this place up elder" that ran rampant over the existing body and managed to get me disfellowshipped, the first time, for something I'd done before baptism. One of the patriarch elders actually stepped down after that charade. That obnoxious elder was only around for a little while and was never popular.
Just curious, because this happened to me when he read my reinstatement, has anyone ever heard a reinstatement that was then followed by EVERY single restriction you would still be under? It confused everyone there and people weren't sure after the meeting if I'd actually been reinstated or not. He was a real a##hole.
Spot on. Great comparison. The younger elders/congregations tend to be a lot looser than the old timers. I was in a congregation with a mix, but it had it's own 'personality'
My aunty's are married to elders and my mum married a minersterial servant almost elder but died. They are all narcissistic abusive men in my personal experience
@Comment-Eri step dad sexualy abused me also and I know of quite a few others my age who experienced this in a couple of congregations i grew up in. My uncle helped cover it up in my case.
OMG, I'm so sorry!!! Never accept abuse!
@@Smyrna37 Sending love exjw....no words for the harm you've endured. I'm so sorry
@Jdub NoMo I'm in the 🇬🇧 but iv been thinking about doing this however most of my family are still in, my mums on the brink of waking up since lockdown so don't want to rock the boat just yet
@@survivingparadisepodcast Thankyou and I was 15 when I finally left. Now 36 my life is so much better than being stuck in. I'm glad people are seeing the real truth and leaving thanks to channels like this
I always thought the "elder arrangement" was a pile of BS. It was great for a lot of small minded men to flex their muscles. Total Foolishness!
I just love the fact that "they" have No more power over me...😀 "get away from me you workers of lawlessness"
Thank you, as awlays Stacy...much love my brother ❤️
Brian Gibbs
Thanks Brian, much love back! NO POWER at all.....smoke and mirrors my friend!
Sweet!
I never saw the depressed elder but definitely a few power-trip guys.
We had the tail-tucked-between-the-legs elders who became secretaries.
I'm so glad I never made it to elder, I was bad at blindly following rules, because I would have been beat down.
Good point....the old Secretary position was usually a guy who REALLY didn't want to do that....miserable job!
The elders in the congregations are imperfect men used as shepherds to assist its members. They are spiritually qualified men that give evidence they are directed by holy spirit, and that they manifest its fruitage in their life. Paul lists the nine aspects of the fruitage of the spirit as “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (Gal. 5:22, 23) Such overseers are required to be a refreshment to the brothers and help unite the congregation. Their course of conduct and the fruits of their labors show that they are appointed by holy spirit.-Acts 20:28.
It seems like some JWs forgot what it means to be balanced and they lose their ability to endure. Some elders have even become like the pharisees in their overconfidence, showy display and rule-making.
Taking it a step further, I don’t recall Jesus instructing his disciples to create 3 man tribunals to judge and punish people for their sins either.
Nope, won't find that anywhere.....even more amazing, neither did extra tightwad Apostle Paul.....it's all fabricated
Gotta love the 80's METAL!!!!!!! (As a JW - LOL )
Jesus is our mediator. Not one single man
Right there in the Bible for Christians
It is my honest opinion that a loving elder can never last in the org. He cares so deeply but after years of being a punching bag. He is bombarded weekly to be an enforcer of rules not a lover of the sheep. After being asked to judge every motive of the sheep. He becomes a shell of what he was. Many times he asks to be removed. It is burn out at its finest!
100% TRUE! It's inevitable if you're a loving man. They will run you ragged. They could care less. I knew you would get this one ;)
I was not a jw .my x wife is the elders didn't want to help me
I'm not surprised to read this....you were the 'unbelieving husband'....you won't get much help from the elders
Elders are not chosen by holy Spirit. An elder fired my brother for having cancer as he lay dying in the cancer unit. My brother worked for him for 15 years. My brother recovered and the guy had already replaced him and he came out of cancer with no good paying job. Brotherly love, right? The elder threw my brother away when he became of no financial use to him.
👋🏼 Uh-oh…, I think my Husband is the by-the-book Elder ☹☹☹… Can tell other Elders didn’t like Him…☹
:( sorry ....they definitely exist.....not fun to live 'by the book'...
@@survivingparadisepodcast Not fun at all. Over time He got burned out and turned in the "Privilege" and became quite weak spiritually. Being an Elder was rough in this Florida Spanish Cong filled with drunks, adulterers, wife abusers, mentally ill (lots) individuals. As much as they all, even the CO tried for Him to not leave, He couldn't take the emotional pressure any longer. I watched Him become depressed as He just couldn't find proper balance between the ever growing JW responsibilities + His physically demanding secular job + home/family life; something had to give, and He chose Eldership. I was sooo very happy!!! At this time we're considered "Spiritually Weak" and I'm blamed for not "helping Him". Actually, I am quite happy in my PIMO life, with Hubby who I believe is a PIMO but He just doesn't know it yet. 🤣🤣🤣
@@DY2784 I'm so sorry! I've seen many men chewed up and thrown away. It's very common. I'm so glad you found a less stressful way to exist if you decide to stay. LOL, sorry to laugh, but the spiritually weak thing just won't die.....but they don't judge people, right? LOL
#2 I call the how in hell is he an elder, Dopey elder. On every body I served on there was one of these guys. I believe the reason they were elders is because simply the body didn't know what to do with them. The 3 I served with had pioneer wives and were great guys and been witnesses for decades. But Dopey!!! We assigned one to conduct the cbs on Tuesday night at the kh. The book revelation its grand climax. I was his assistant. He actually quit coming to the book study. He called a said would you mind conducting. When he did show up he would bring fruit pies to eat after the meeting. He would actually pass them around like the bread. Except everybody ate the pies. Every one of these guys would poop themselves if they had to deal with anything meaty or deep. That being said 1 Dopey elder is still my buddy. Don't ask Don't tell. Maybe Dopey elders got it figured out?
LOL....I wish I had thought of that: Dopey Elder.....HILARIOUS!!! I was an MS with an elder that didn't want to conduct that book.....I ended up doing it as an elder. We would often laugh our way through the study. Those stupid paragraphs that were nothing by verses out of Revelation with a question that said 'what does Revelation 1:1 say'......WE JUST READ IT!!
Ahhh in time for happy hour and watchtower deep thought 🤔 🍺
Thanks Huston!
@@survivingparadisepodcast you know I was a servant for 9 1/2 years and I know I was never considered to be an elder because I always or most times questioned the elders. I once went to the CO meeting, elders and servants with out a tie. I wore my turtleneck and when the CO saw me, He said, what is that? I simply said to him that I didn’t want to bring it tie. he almost didn’t let me in to the meeting so I told him, “I tell you what! I’ll go back home put on the tie and I’ll come back to the meeting. he gave me an angry Look and said, “come in and sit down” and that was it. I was about 22-23 I think.. Hahahha. I’ve always had a problem with their petty rules.
@@hustonmices3976 LOL, isn't it all ridiculous?? Good for you!!
Now elders are super young. It’s such a joke. 🤡🤡🤡🤡
The Annual Meeting video.....my god.....they are encouraging brothers in their early 20's to be elders. They're openly begging them in their EARLY 20's!!!!!!
@@survivingparadisepodcast oh geez. 20 year old me can barely organize the car groups when I was pioneer. Now they are marriage, depression, teen issue counselors. What a Disaster!
@@nataliegrandauthorofcultgi1231 Can you imagine dealing with the complexity of child abuse or broken marriages.....AT 20???!!! LOL, just absurd
They really are OT people, unrelated to actual Christianity.
Most couldn't tell you what is in the Bible.
@@survivingparadisepodcast or what they think is in the Scripture
My x wife was hanging out with the sister's and getting drunk all the time and when she was home getting drunk and having a affair on the internet that was the kind of jw she was
Spiritual paradise, that's nothing new , they were saying that in the 1980s after the 1975 debacle, more like a Spiritual mine field.
Narcissistic elder?
Oh yes, lots of those!!