I agree with this. If it’s a reboot, great. Not a new edition. I have to say Ii get weary of people watering previous editions down to “superheroes with fangs” it could be that. Sure. But I’ve always liked discipline and ritual options as plot points. Something to investigate for horror and mystery sake. And having a lot of growth in power level and options for powers doesn’t prevent a story based campaign. Maybe I was lucky with the group I played with but we had campaigns run with multiple sessions with minimal dice rolls or discipline use. I also miss having multiple options of story types. Elder ennui. Deep ancient mystery. Alien mindset of true ancients. Maybe it’s coming. But I don’t see V5 having the capacity for telling those stories. I still have my old books tho. No one burned them. And if you like V5, enjoy it.
i totally thing its coming but alas not enough manpower, mismanagement and slow schedule hindered that. it is a healthy sign they finally kicked modiphius. hopefully renegade can do it at least better and the message last december showed to me they are aware its high time they deliver.
From my perspective, the legacy WoD had a huge power level problem, everyone and everything was way over the top. I like the blood potence system a lot, it sort of forces vampires that are too powerfull to go into torpor and thin the blood a little, opening a gap to new vampires to rise to power. However I miss the mood and violence of the old system.
Speaking as a V5 fan, I think this is a fair review. I definitely agree that this is a somewhat concerning direction and I know in the V5 games I actually play in we treat it as more of an update but whereas the Hecata stuff was in-universe I do wonder how much it might cause problems for my ST when updating Tzimisce sheets if he keeps the old spread as best possible as I do agree on that front if not on the bane. I think for me I do have reservations with elements of the bane, but if nothing else you can just make the Tzimisce bane thing Carpathian dirt if don't like the idea of lessening the link there to Kupala. I agree on the Salubri stuff though I would say the Hunger Frenzy difficulty for sight of blood at hunger 4 is only 2, so the median character will normally beat that before spending willpower due to willpower + 1/3 humanity meaning most people's pools will typically be 5+. So I think the sight of blood stuff is mainly frustrating from the masquerade breach perspective, I'm playing one soon so we'll have to see how it goes in practice and whether or not we change that part. I definitely agree that lots of things that ignore metaplot would have been better served with even a couple sentences more rather than just being vague like explicitly linking the Ravnos' change more to the destruction of their Ante, mentioning Tremere's name in the Salubri write up and maybe having the old bane be weakening leading to the change because Sword of Dracula or something. Basically, I think this is a very fair review and I found it less "old man shouts at cloud" than the near 2 hour first impressions you had before. It's definitely an odd book that hopefully from my end as someone who plays V5 more as update regardless of lore mentions or not is more of a blip than a sign of what Paradox/White Wolf want to come. So yeah, thanks for the video!
about the old stuff being left behind - it would be so helpful if they just push out a clan/bloodline guide book to tie both together finally for good.
Salubri is my favorite clan. I was quite shocked to say the least. I tried my best to think of ways to play honestly. Maybe an all Salubri coterie. We could protect each other or something. But, Salubri suffer from the vampire condition too. So, even my own buddies would try to eat me 🤦🏾♂️. I want to like V5. They have a point about how 2nd Ed clan flaws didn't matter much. I see the flaws in V20 thanks to V5 now. I just wish my favorite clan was playable. If anyone has good ideas on how to play V5 Salubri, I would love your ideas.
In the World of Darkness News episode about the Companion design decisions they revealed, that they were surprised how little the bane was actually a problem during play tests. I think it is in theory the worst bane, but in actuality not that much of a big deal. I would also wait for the Sabbat book. I hope for some information about the Antitribu in there, since there is that line about that the Salubis powers are capable of hearting as well as healing, which I can not see in the powers already presented. I assume there might be something else, we just don’t know yet. Beside from that, I like to give you some suggestions to play a Salubri, but I don’t know what you like about them. Please explain. My personal approach to a Salubri NPC is someone surrounded by a cult, that protects him against other vampires. There are methods to keep your hunger under control, it is therefore a challenge, but to challenge your self is also often part of what a cult demands from you.
@@theOriginalS.P. Ya know, Cults of the Blood Gods can now be purchased. So maybe I can learn more. I think I can move from V20 to V5, I just want to play the way I want. I'll figure it out.
@@uselessfamiliar But don't expect more about the Salubri in their. The Book was writen long before the Compenion was released. But it is a good read, though.
i think they mayor mistake in the companion, is what they do to the Salubri. i dont pretend to include this clan in my games (not yet anyway), but if i do, i will homebrew them, because its to incapacitating their bane ... in other hand, I do like the Tzimisce and Ravnos rework, i think this changes fit very well with the lore in v5... as far as it goes. Ravnos running from their founder rage, which kill their elders and Mathusaleah that were in torpor... i think its fantastic. And about Tzimisce, i think it could be better, but its fine to me.
Much like when we did the table talk on this--I agree. The metaplot seems abandoned in favor of vague pseudo-rewrites of the lore. It would be much easier to digest if they just came out and admitted it was a reboot of the game instead of pretending it's only an edition update. I, also, expected MUCH better from the team working on this. The Salubri, in particular, is a bothersome splat of outright ignoring everything from Revised onward about the clan; and the addition of their "bane" is completely out of touch with what they were before and what the clan was. This companion has two things going for it: 1) everything other than the travesty of the clan section, and 2) it's free.
These are clan stubs, so the information is greatly condensed. You can't expect them to properly encapsulate the entire history of a clan that has been center stage in a three page spread. Beyond that - what does your real world modern human have to do with ancient Tzimisce lands when they're some dude from Boston? Overall, I'm pleased with the companion because it's free, matches the look of the core book. You are spot on with the observation about disciplines beginning to be fractured across multiple books Enjoying your videos, keep them up! :)
"Beyond that - what does your real world modern human have to do with ancient Tzimisce lands when they're some dude from Boston?" I don't understand your question. Do you mean, what does some random dude embraced in modern nights have to do with the ancient Tzimisce? Well, if he was embraced by Tzimisce, everything. That's why there are clans. The blood passes on clan curses. The elders seek out others of a similar or like-minded mentality for embrace, and that upbringing twists and molds the Childe. To say that a modern person from Boston has nothing in common with the Tzimisce of old really disregards the entire concept of clans, clan stereotypes, and the underlying theme of the entire setting. Anyway, thanks for your comment! I really appreciate your perspective on the subject.
@@TwoDTen Well, what I mean is that a modern day Tzmisce will have been Embraced by a Tzimisce Ancilla, who themselves have not likely ever travelled to the Old World. There are transmissions of the Clan ideals in all clans, but the Transylvania focused ideas cannot have been dominant in the North American Sabbat - they would have been more occupied with their current demense. I think an issue with the Clan Book series in general is that it gave the Storytellers and readers/collectors some good lore, but how and why this would be transmitted to neonates is always questionable. This is why the more philosophical/approach based Clans are more functional: Brujah = rebels, Ventrue = the elite, Toreador = artists. I just think the Tzimisce and Lasombra are much bigger than their Dark Ages history. The divide between the old and young is as big a problem in the Sabbat, and post-Sabbat world as it ever was. Where I think you're spot on is calling V5 a reboot. It's a soft reboot that probably should have leaned harder into a hard reboot.
I just do not understand the reasoning behind the new discipline system. They clearly want clan specific powers. Why then go this awkward route of genericizing the base discipline sets and tacking on this annoying combination amalgam shtick?
I think the Fiends becoming Dragons of anything they could form a coherent obsession with, whether its territory, a concept, ideology or specific material is interesting. But I will admit my bias in that I absolutely want to make a Tzimisce Dragon of Dojima that walks the streets of a certain city and beats people up because they unlive for the ideal of old school gangster honor. You may be a criminal and a vampire, but you have a code of honor to uphold and you don't let punks harm your civilians. Just a man or a woman that will pick up a motorcycle and smash it into a mugger's skull for attacking some old lady. If you wanna roll a V5 Tzimisce, you gotta give me an obsession that follows through with guide lines and weakness. Why are you a Dragon of Disco? Sell me it. As for the Salurbri it comes down to this. 1: People like to play as weird clans. I want to roll Banu Haqium, Caitiff and Maeghar. I like being a freak among monsters. Why develop bloodlines or Clans if you not gonna let people roll them? 2: Jesus Christ, did the people behind this book take a bet to see if they could make a clan harder to play than rolling a Baali? I absolutely want a Gehenna where the Salubri are making a come back? Remember the Furies? The Sabbat aligned Salubri Warriors who were fucking pissed as hell the Camarilla let the Tremere commit Cannibal genocide on them? Their numbers were surging because they were go-to shock troops well before the Sect lost a good chunk of everything, including the Lasombra. You know a scenario I'm dying to try out? The Banu Haqium committing to their promise to the Al-Amin, the Salubri of The Ashirra, by both trying to unify them with the Furies and also helping them destroy the Tremere inside and out of the Camarilla to set up the Salubri as a member of the Camarilla. But good luck playing them when they're losing blood every use of a discipline and are making everyone desperate to diablerize them, especially the Diablerize happy Judges!
I'd be happy if they left the ravnos and salubri in the dust. But I will say that I liked the writeup of Tzimisce. Its a bit clumsy, but I like the new clan bane. It can be interpreted both along the older lines, as well as something new and sinister in a different way.
I often agree with your opinion, but not in this case. I suggest watching the World of Darkness News episode, where Justin Achilli explains the design choices, that makes some things a little bit clearer. Beside from that, I think the break with established lore is actually the new lore for the Ravnos. The Idea is, that the loss of the Clanfounder has departed them from their roots and they are now a clan without any commonly accepted lore. That is intentional and imo the opportunity to have a clan that is a familiar one and a unpredictable new player at the same time. The Salubri are of cause very much screwed, but again, intentionally. I kind of agree, that established lore was rolled back the most with them, but on the other hand, I think the Sabbat book and what ever happened to the antitribu will tell us the rest of the story. About Tzimisce I almost disagree completely. As a Tzimisce fan, I was surprised how well the new interpretation works with almost all types of Tzimisce I have encountered over the about 25 years I am playing this game now. I don’t know if that was intentionally or coincidently, but I see the many faces of this clan combined in the new Iteration. The Landlord vibe is basically as most people already played the Clan, since it has a lot of Dracula in it. The gang leader approach is what you need for a Sabbat or former Sabbat Character. The Disciplines are a combination of the mainstream Tzimisce and the old Clan, which is fair, imo, since you can always use a predator type or make a bloodline, to finetune things. The Bane is, imo, genius, since it combines the connection to the homeland with the obsessiveness of the Obertus Revenant, of which many were embraced in to proper Tzimisce over the years, or the hedonism of the Zantosa. Works very well for me. That Vicissitude is now spread over several disciplines is not that big of a deal as you implied. It is basically Dominate and Protean, only those two, to create basically anything, vicissitude was capable of before. Can not complain about that really. The Animalism/Protean Amalgam is, imo, not that of a big deal either. You can read it as a high level Vicissitude power that is now easier available, but since you need Protean 5 and Animalism 2 and needs Earth Meld as Prerequisite, so that it basically eats two of your power sots, it is quite hard to obtain and might be rather fond by older vampires who found a way to excide the total amount of 5 powers per discipline. It also can be read as the mystic/oracle aspect of the Clan, that was formaly realised with Auspex. Or you can read it as equivalent to the coldunic way of Spirit. The only thing I am not a fan of is, that the Tzimisce have lost Auspex. The mystic and oracle type of Tzimisce is now not quite represented anymore. But after thinking about it for a while, I came to the conclusion, that you can, as already mentioned, create a bloodline (for example based on the numerous embraced Obertus) with Auspex instead of Animalism (if you don’t want to lose Vicissitude) or Protean, if you are gone make something more in line with an old Clan Tzimisce. Beside from that, you can still use the predator Type for that or even use some Animalism powers to substitute for Auspex. Feeling someone else’s beast is close to reading his Aura. Since it can be also used passively as kind of a danger sense, it is also like a limited version of Premonition. And to possess a raven or a bat and observe the country is basically Psychic Projection or Clairvoyance, just with the little limitation of still using a physical body. One with the land, though, is even closer to these powers as well.
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your thought-out responses. For obvious reasons, I'm not going to give a detailed reply here - that's what the video is for! However, I will state that even though I disagree with your points almost totally, I appreciate the different perspectives on the lore. Thanks for watching.
@@TwoDTen No problem, the comment section is for discussion and different opinions make the world interesting. I just wanted to present a second point of view to contrast yours. We need not to agree as long as we still can talk to each other.
For sure! And that’s why I make stuff. I love the game (and games in general) and I want everyone else to enjoy it, too. And not JUST how I enjoy it. Thank you for watching my video.
like i agree with the vibes of the video and can understand the trouble with lvl 5 cap and lack powers, but nothing that cant change. otherwise i also agree with your comment and i saw the interview as well, it makes sense how they explain and it was playtested, i am personally looking forward to use it, while waiting for more. how you explain the tie-in with the different tzimisce makes a lot of sense and i have good feeling that we will see specific variants and koldunic sorcery again in V5 at one point. and the ravnos bit i disagree with the video as i also thought it is very obvious and outright genius what they have done with them. just curious about your thoughts about the Salubri. i like their write-up and Bane, and like the powers, but can understand here more how it is well a thing. what is perspective and outlook for them? :)
I could not agree more with your disappointment with the disciplines. The next book they're doing is Sabbat. I'm worried, I don't understand why they've diminished one of the most interesting parts of the game so much. We also don't have elders anymore, the kindred in V5 seem more like humans 2.0 than true monsters struggling not to lose themselves.
I can not really comprehend your comment. Yes, the focus of V5 is on “street level” characters, but so was the focus of every edition’s core book with probably the exception of V20, which ultimately had no focus. Only later supplements provided the option to make older characters, but no one would blame V1, V2 or V3 (revised) for taking elders away. If you talk about the beckoning, I think you have misunderstood what it is and how it is meant to be used by the ST. There are still planty of elders around in V5s canon. What I really don’t understand is, that you describe the Characters as “Humans 2.0” while the new system, with Hunger instead of blood points and so on does much more to create the feeling of monsters struggeling not to lose themself, while previous editions tend to be used as “Superheroes with Fangs”-games, because the system made it easy to ignore the “lose themselves”-part.
I hadn’t even read through the Ravnos/Saliburi clan weaknesses. What the actual hell? I played a Salubri back in the 2nd Ed days, this would have made that character complete unplayable. So done with V5 by now. I was more tolerant of it (my comment below for example), but I’ve gone on to find the entire reboot and update thing both pointless and wrong headed.
You could have mentioned that the players guide was announced to arrive over a year ago and after several hints from play testers wasn't that well liked. Delays followed and ties with modiphius were cut. The Compendium is the rest of it. Instead of developing a new product over a years time, wod team decided to share it for free with the fans.
That is not actually true. The Players Guide was meant to be produced by Modiphius, but neither fans nor paradox where happy with it. Therefore, they ended the entire agreement with Modiphius and brought the development back inhouse. The companion had only in so far to do with the players guide, that it is World of Darkness own version, deliberately not what it was like in the never released players guide. Therefore, I would not blame Paradox/World of Darkness for that. The Companion is not what is left, but an intervention by the property owner to adjust things. A new Players Guide, not produced by Modiphius, was announced too.
I could have mentioned that if I knew that. I didn't know that at the time of writing, nor can I say I concretely know it now. If that is true, I don't think it's at all relevant to my review. I'm not going to give a company a pass for their own publishing inconsistencies. It got 2 out of 5 because it's free and there's some material in it that I believe was done well. If they thought the previous material by Modiphius was sub-par and that's why they gave it away free, I don't think that makes it worthy of a kinder review.
@@TwoDTen Don’t bother, it is not true. You couldn’t knew it, because it didn’t happen. I understand why he think that way, because the players guide was announced for ages and then suddenly the Companion came out, with the announced Ravnos and Tzimisce in it. But you can tell that it isn’t true, since the players guide was never intended to present the Salubri nor rules for Humans and Play Testers say, that the companion version of Ravnos and Tzimisce is much better than the Players Guide version. How can it be the rest of the players guide, when the only content these both have in common were completely rewritten? It just makes no sense!
V5 is bad corporate art, the whole thing stinks of design by committee. But, honestly... that's okay! I've much rather have bad art than no art all. And, come on. You guys are telling me that you aren't excited to find out what the hell is actually going on at Hardsuit Labs right now? The drama behind the scenes there has got to be more interesting than The Fall of London at least.
Found bloodlines about three or so years ago. Really dove into stuff like the gentleman gamer and lore by night to get into the lore. When I started finding v5 shit I nearly instantly lost interest.
The only thing i had a problem with in this review is wanting every boom or have a "General Consent" page in it. Why do they need this? Most if not all TTRP's are very accomidating to the groups that form as well as having session 0s to discuss these type of things. Having it plastered all over the books us a watse of a page for the artwork, rules, errata.
Nah, with internet game play, conventions, and people experiencing the game differently - now more than ever, it's important that all parties involved have a greater understanding about what they're in for. I think it's incredibly short-sighted (and a tad narcissistic) to assume that everyone is prepared to handle everything the same way. The fact is, we all have different experiences, and experience levels, that impact our lives. We all have different tolerance levels for just about every kind of variable. I think, taking a page to clearly inform people what they're in for in a game isn't going to ruin your average game book. I appreciate your feedback, but I have to admit I feel like it's coming from a very selfish place with motives that aren't about a loss of "artwork, rules, errata."
@@TwoDTen With the rise of internet play, especially because of what happened last year, most if not all ttrpg players have more than enough access to information about any ttrpg they want to dive into. Adding that page is something added because of outside of game things not the actual game itself. Most if not all of that kind of thing added into a game is so that they push personal ideologies or preferences onto other people. There are countless videos, forum discussion, discord channels, ect on the subject of finding a group you gel with or helping players to express any uncomfortable feelings they have towards something that came up or could come up in a game. Adding that page, to the physical book copies at least, is in fact a waste of a page. Its like adding to every computer, phone, or other communitcation device a note that says "Treat others kindly because you want to be treated kindly" Not to mention that these kind of things make future changes or adaptions to the material questionable by players/fans of the series. They start to wonder if they changed this or that because they wanted to make a better or easier game for new players or to indoctrinate new/old players into theur way of thinking. After all the rulebook is more of a guideline for the ST, Dm, or Gm to use and adjust as they see fit. That "Rule" is in pretty much every ttrpg that the person running it can change whatever they want at their table which implies that if they want a non-triggering game they can have that or if they want an ultra-nazi game they can have that. Having this kind of thing in ths game strays from making a game to making a statement.
@@Zorant0Zero Your stance is depending on many assumptions about both people and products, plus a whole tackle box full of logical fallacies. I'm not interested in having this debate, with you, in the comments, even a little bit. Bottom line: You have your opinion and I have mine. If you like my review but disagree with me on specific points, that's good. That's how this whole deal works. Keep watching and disagreeing. Eventually, I'll say something that resonates with you, specifically, and we can be friends once again. I appreciate your passion if nothing else. Thanks for the feedback!
@@TwoDTen Who said I dislike you for your opinion? I enjoy your reviews and am fine discussing differences we have. The only negative is the "box of fallacies" line but I dont take it to heart that we cant find common ground. Saying that doesnt exactly give me anything to work with to help me see your point of view any better. Keep makin videos bro I still support you in that endeavor.
I just cant get behind your logic on some of your complaints. I don't actually have a huge issue with scaling down disciplines/powers when V:TM games before was just super unbalanced, bloated, and straight "boring" power fantasy. This game NEEDED a reboot in its mechanics/rules and because the rules and mechanics are drastically changing, the lore is getting changed to fit better with the tone/style the game's going. And honestly, there has been retcons in V:TM before, and anything that last WAY longer than it should is going to be retcon sooner or later (Metal Gear Solid games) as an example. Also like the change to making older vamps more powerful through Blood Potency buffs more than just a huge box of broken disciplines that just makes things just awful. A vampire thats a neonate with level 5 disciplines are still significantly weaker than Methuselahs with the same exact disciplines and level because of Exp and Blood Potency shifts. Is the Salubri Bane super punishing ... ya, they should scale back a little on that one. Why do the Ravnos wander? Well clan blood has always dictated in a small scale how there clan focuses there efforts and personality, and the Ravnos antediluvian is dead after the "Week of Nightmares" And the bane is them dying if they sleep in one one spot to long ..... like did you over look all of this? Tzimisce are just paper thin? Well if you read closer, they explain that the older Tzimisce horde in a more old fashion way and still care for controlling things sophistically from the shadows in large mansions/castles, while its the younger Tzimisce that are more paper thin with there obsessions. Also lets get real for a second, Tzimisce have changed before and the dirt clan cures and the new bane are just a trade off. The obsession bane/compulsion is simple, but its easier to play off of it in more interesting ways than having the right dirt for the night. (Little off track here) Is everything prefect and on the right track? Na, I still wish that Tremere get more offensive rituals, I still wish that all the disciplines will get about 3 - 4 more base powers, and wish in the future that they will implement missing things like Gargoyles, Revenants, ect. But I understand that the mechanics and rules have drastically changed and we need to wait for that stuff because its not going to be a simple Copy & Paste job here for how they work.
Thank you for your comment! While I disagree with almost everything you say, I appreciate your unique perspective. I am humbled that you are taking the time to engage with me.
Another fantastic honest review. Thank you for creating this.
I do appreciate the honest review for this as well. I'm hoping changes will be made!
Nice review, i think everyone loves anything vampire related reviews on this channel
I agree with this. If it’s a reboot, great. Not a new edition. I have to say Ii get weary of people watering previous editions down to “superheroes with fangs” it could be that. Sure. But I’ve always liked discipline and ritual options as plot points. Something to investigate for horror and mystery sake. And having a lot of growth in power level and options for powers doesn’t prevent a story based campaign. Maybe I was lucky with the group I played with but we had campaigns run with multiple sessions with minimal dice rolls or discipline use.
I also miss having multiple options of story types. Elder ennui. Deep ancient mystery. Alien mindset of true ancients. Maybe it’s coming. But I don’t see V5 having the capacity for telling those stories. I still have my old books tho. No one burned them. And if you like V5, enjoy it.
i totally thing its coming but alas not enough manpower, mismanagement and slow schedule hindered that. it is a healthy sign they finally kicked modiphius. hopefully renegade can do it at least better and the message last december showed to me they are aware its high time they deliver.
From my perspective, the legacy WoD had a huge power level problem, everyone and everything was way over the top. I like the blood potence system a lot, it sort of forces vampires that are too powerfull to go into torpor and thin the blood a little, opening a gap to new vampires to rise to power. However I miss the mood and violence of the old system.
Beanie Baby collectors. I about lost my coffee in a laughing fit.
If people want something new then play Requiem 2nd Edition (My favourite edition btw). V5 seems so weird...
Speaking as a V5 fan, I think this is a fair review. I definitely agree that this is a somewhat concerning direction and I know in the V5 games I actually play in we treat it as more of an update but whereas the Hecata stuff was in-universe I do wonder how much it might cause problems for my ST when updating Tzimisce sheets if he keeps the old spread as best possible as I do agree on that front if not on the bane.
I think for me I do have reservations with elements of the bane, but if nothing else you can just make the Tzimisce bane thing Carpathian dirt if don't like the idea of lessening the link there to Kupala.
I agree on the Salubri stuff though I would say the Hunger Frenzy difficulty for sight of blood at hunger 4 is only 2, so the median character will normally beat that before spending willpower due to willpower + 1/3 humanity meaning most people's pools will typically be 5+. So I think the sight of blood stuff is mainly frustrating from the masquerade breach perspective, I'm playing one soon so we'll have to see how it goes in practice and whether or not we change that part.
I definitely agree that lots of things that ignore metaplot would have been better served with even a couple sentences more rather than just being vague like explicitly linking the Ravnos' change more to the destruction of their Ante, mentioning Tremere's name in the Salubri write up and maybe having the old bane be weakening leading to the change because Sword of Dracula or something.
Basically, I think this is a very fair review and I found it less "old man shouts at cloud" than the near 2 hour first impressions you had before. It's definitely an odd book that hopefully from my end as someone who plays V5 more as update regardless of lore mentions or not is more of a blip than a sign of what Paradox/White Wolf want to come.
So yeah, thanks for the video!
"Old man shouts at clouds" had me rolling! Get off my lawn!!!
about the old stuff being left behind - it would be so helpful if they just push out a clan/bloodline guide book to tie both together finally for good.
A great critical review!!!
Salubri is my favorite clan. I was quite shocked to say the least. I tried my best to think of ways to play honestly. Maybe an all Salubri coterie. We could protect each other or something. But, Salubri suffer from the vampire condition too. So, even my own buddies would try to eat me 🤦🏾♂️.
I want to like V5. They have a point about how 2nd Ed clan flaws didn't matter much. I see the flaws in V20 thanks to V5 now. I just wish my favorite clan was playable. If anyone has good ideas on how to play V5 Salubri, I would love your ideas.
In the World of Darkness News episode about the Companion design decisions they revealed, that they were surprised how little the bane was actually a problem during play tests. I think it is in theory the worst bane, but in actuality not that much of a big deal. I would also wait for the Sabbat book. I hope for some information about the Antitribu in there, since there is that line about that the Salubis powers are capable of hearting as well as healing, which I can not see in the powers already presented. I assume there might be something else, we just don’t know yet.
Beside from that, I like to give you some suggestions to play a Salubri, but I don’t know what you like about them. Please explain.
My personal approach to a Salubri NPC is someone surrounded by a cult, that protects him against other vampires. There are methods to keep your hunger under control, it is therefore a challenge, but to challenge your self is also often part of what a cult demands from you.
@@theOriginalS.P.
Ya know, Cults of the Blood Gods can now be purchased. So maybe I can learn more. I think I can move from V20 to V5, I just want to play the way I want. I'll figure it out.
@@uselessfamiliar But don't expect more about the Salubri in their. The Book was writen long before the Compenion was released. But it is a good read, though.
i think they mayor mistake in the companion, is what they do to the Salubri. i dont pretend to include this clan in my games (not yet anyway), but if i do, i will homebrew them, because its to incapacitating their bane ... in other hand, I do like the Tzimisce and Ravnos rework, i think this changes fit very well with the lore in v5... as far as it goes. Ravnos running from their founder rage, which kill their elders and Mathusaleah that were in torpor... i think its fantastic. And about Tzimisce, i think it could be better, but its fine to me.
Much like when we did the table talk on this--I agree. The metaplot seems abandoned in favor of vague pseudo-rewrites of the lore. It would be much easier to digest if they just came out and admitted it was a reboot of the game instead of pretending it's only an edition update. I, also, expected MUCH better from the team working on this. The Salubri, in particular, is a bothersome splat of outright ignoring everything from Revised onward about the clan; and the addition of their "bane" is completely out of touch with what they were before and what the clan was. This companion has two things going for it: 1) everything other than the travesty of the clan section, and 2) it's free.
Nate, I love your shows and view points. Keep up the good work!
Well said. Couldn't agree more.
These are clan stubs, so the information is greatly condensed. You can't expect them to properly encapsulate the entire history of a clan that has been center stage in a three page spread. Beyond that - what does your real world modern human have to do with ancient Tzimisce lands when they're some dude from Boston?
Overall, I'm pleased with the companion because it's free, matches the look of the core book. You are spot on with the observation about disciplines beginning to be fractured across multiple books
Enjoying your videos, keep them up! :)
"Beyond that - what does your real world modern human have to do with ancient Tzimisce lands when they're some dude from Boston?"
I don't understand your question. Do you mean, what does some random dude embraced in modern nights have to do with the ancient Tzimisce? Well, if he was embraced by Tzimisce, everything. That's why there are clans. The blood passes on clan curses. The elders seek out others of a similar or like-minded mentality for embrace, and that upbringing twists and molds the Childe.
To say that a modern person from Boston has nothing in common with the Tzimisce of old really disregards the entire concept of clans, clan stereotypes, and the underlying theme of the entire setting.
Anyway, thanks for your comment! I really appreciate your perspective on the subject.
@@TwoDTen Well, what I mean is that a modern day Tzmisce will have been Embraced by a Tzimisce Ancilla, who themselves have not likely ever travelled to the Old World. There are transmissions of the Clan ideals in all clans, but the Transylvania focused ideas cannot have been dominant in the North American Sabbat - they would have been more occupied with their current demense.
I think an issue with the Clan Book series in general is that it gave the Storytellers and readers/collectors some good lore, but how and why this would be transmitted to neonates is always questionable. This is why the more philosophical/approach based Clans are more functional: Brujah = rebels, Ventrue = the elite, Toreador = artists.
I just think the Tzimisce and Lasombra are much bigger than their Dark Ages history. The divide between the old and young is as big a problem in the Sabbat, and post-Sabbat world as it ever was.
Where I think you're spot on is calling V5 a reboot. It's a soft reboot that probably should have leaned harder into a hard reboot.
@@ianfletcher6039 hard agree.
Dragons be collecting yo!
I just do not understand the reasoning behind the new discipline system. They clearly want clan specific powers.
Why then go this awkward route of genericizing the base discipline sets and tacking on this annoying combination amalgam shtick?
Yeah... I dunno.
Do you think they will eventually make changes to this Companion?
They actually will. They talk about it in the World of Darkness News episode about the design decisions. But I would not expect big changes.
I think the Fiends becoming Dragons of anything they could form a coherent obsession with, whether its territory, a concept, ideology or specific material is interesting. But I will admit my bias in that I absolutely want to make a Tzimisce Dragon of Dojima that walks the streets of a certain city and beats people up because they unlive for the ideal of old school gangster honor. You may be a criminal and a vampire, but you have a code of honor to uphold and you don't let punks harm your civilians. Just a man or a woman that will pick up a motorcycle and smash it into a mugger's skull for attacking some old lady. If you wanna roll a V5 Tzimisce, you gotta give me an obsession that follows through with guide lines and weakness. Why are you a Dragon of Disco? Sell me it.
As for the Salurbri it comes down to this.
1: People like to play as weird clans. I want to roll Banu Haqium, Caitiff and Maeghar. I like being a freak among monsters. Why develop bloodlines or Clans if you not gonna let people roll them?
2: Jesus Christ, did the people behind this book take a bet to see if they could make a clan harder to play than rolling a Baali? I absolutely want a Gehenna where the Salubri are making a come back? Remember the Furies? The Sabbat aligned Salubri Warriors who were fucking pissed as hell the Camarilla let the Tremere commit Cannibal genocide on them? Their numbers were surging because they were go-to shock troops well before the Sect lost a good chunk of everything, including the Lasombra. You know a scenario I'm dying to try out? The Banu Haqium committing to their promise to the Al-Amin, the Salubri of The Ashirra, by both trying to unify them with the Furies and also helping them destroy the Tremere inside and out of the Camarilla to set up the Salubri as a member of the Camarilla. But good luck playing them when they're losing blood every use of a discipline and are making everyone desperate to diablerize them, especially the Diablerize happy Judges!
I hate what V5 did to my beloved Tzimisce.
I'd be happy if they left the ravnos and salubri in the dust. But I will say that I liked the writeup of Tzimisce. Its a bit clumsy, but I like the new clan bane. It can be interpreted both along the older lines, as well as something new and sinister in a different way.
I often agree with your opinion, but not in this case. I suggest watching the World of Darkness News episode, where Justin Achilli explains the design choices, that makes some things a little bit clearer.
Beside from that, I think the break with established lore is actually the new lore for the Ravnos. The Idea is, that the loss of the Clanfounder has departed them from their roots and they are now a clan without any commonly accepted lore. That is intentional and imo the opportunity to have a clan that is a familiar one and a unpredictable new player at the same time.
The Salubri are of cause very much screwed, but again, intentionally. I kind of agree, that established lore was rolled back the most with them, but on the other hand, I think the Sabbat book and what ever happened to the antitribu will tell us the rest of the story.
About Tzimisce I almost disagree completely. As a Tzimisce fan, I was surprised how well the new interpretation works with almost all types of
Tzimisce I have encountered over the about 25 years I am playing this game now. I don’t know if that was intentionally or coincidently, but I see the many faces of this clan combined in the new Iteration. The Landlord vibe is basically as most people already played the Clan, since it has a lot of Dracula in it.
The gang leader approach is what you need for a Sabbat or former Sabbat Character. The Disciplines are a combination of the mainstream Tzimisce and the old Clan, which is fair, imo, since you can always use a predator type or make a bloodline, to finetune things.
The Bane is, imo, genius, since it combines the connection to the homeland with the obsessiveness of the Obertus Revenant, of which many were embraced in to proper Tzimisce over the years, or the hedonism of the Zantosa. Works very well for me.
That Vicissitude is now spread over several disciplines is not that big of a deal as you implied. It is basically Dominate and Protean, only those two, to create basically anything, vicissitude was capable of before. Can not complain about that really. The Animalism/Protean Amalgam is, imo, not that of a big deal either. You can read it as a high level Vicissitude power that is now easier available, but since you need Protean 5 and Animalism 2 and needs Earth Meld as Prerequisite, so that it basically eats two of your power sots, it is quite hard to obtain and might be rather fond by older vampires who found a way to excide the total amount of 5 powers per discipline. It also can be read as the mystic/oracle aspect of the Clan, that was formaly realised with Auspex. Or you can read it as equivalent to the coldunic way of Spirit.
The only thing I am not a fan of is, that the Tzimisce have lost Auspex. The mystic and oracle type of Tzimisce is now not quite represented anymore. But after thinking about it for a while, I came to the conclusion, that you can, as already mentioned, create a bloodline (for example based on the numerous embraced Obertus) with Auspex instead of Animalism (if you don’t want to lose Vicissitude) or Protean, if you are gone make something more in line with an old Clan Tzimisce. Beside from that, you can still use the predator Type for that or even use some Animalism powers to substitute for Auspex. Feeling someone else’s beast is close to reading his Aura. Since it can be also used passively as kind of a danger sense, it is also like a limited version of Premonition. And to possess a raven or a bat and observe the country is basically Psychic Projection or Clairvoyance, just with the little limitation of still using a physical body. One with the land, though, is even closer to these powers as well.
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your thought-out responses.
For obvious reasons, I'm not going to give a detailed reply here - that's what the video is for! However, I will state that even though I disagree with your points almost totally, I appreciate the different perspectives on the lore. Thanks for watching.
@@TwoDTen No problem, the comment section is for discussion and different opinions make the world interesting. I just wanted to present a second point of view to contrast yours. We need not to agree as long as we still can talk to each other.
For sure! And that’s why I make stuff. I love the game (and games in general) and I want everyone else to enjoy it, too. And not JUST how I enjoy it. Thank you for watching my video.
@@theOriginalS.P. 100% agree! And the thing is, I'm still going to play the game. Thanks for being awesome!
like i agree with the vibes of the video and can understand the trouble with lvl 5 cap and lack powers, but nothing that cant change. otherwise i also agree with your comment and i saw the interview as well, it makes sense how they explain and it was playtested, i am personally looking forward to use it, while waiting for more.
how you explain the tie-in with the different tzimisce makes a lot of sense and i have good feeling that we will see specific variants and koldunic sorcery again in V5 at one point. and the ravnos bit i disagree with the video as i also thought it is very obvious and outright genius what they have done with them.
just curious about your thoughts about the Salubri. i like their write-up and Bane, and like the powers, but can understand here more how it is well a thing. what is perspective and outlook for them? :)
I could not agree more with your disappointment with the disciplines.
The next book they're doing is Sabbat. I'm worried, I don't understand why they've diminished one of the most interesting parts of the game so much. We also don't have elders anymore, the kindred in V5 seem more like humans 2.0 than true monsters struggling not to lose themselves.
I can not really comprehend your comment. Yes, the focus of V5 is on “street level” characters, but so was the focus of every edition’s core book with probably the exception of V20, which ultimately had no focus. Only later supplements provided the option to make older characters, but no one would blame V1, V2 or V3 (revised) for taking elders away. If you talk about the beckoning, I think you have misunderstood what it is and how it is meant to be used by the ST. There are still planty of elders around in V5s canon.
What I really don’t understand is, that you describe the Characters as “Humans 2.0” while the new system, with Hunger instead of blood points and so on does much more to create the feeling of monsters struggeling not to lose themself, while previous editions tend to be used as “Superheroes with Fangs”-games, because the system made it easy to ignore the “lose themselves”-part.
I hadn’t even read through the Ravnos/Saliburi clan weaknesses. What the actual hell? I played a Salubri back in the 2nd Ed days, this would have made that character complete unplayable.
So done with V5 by now. I was more tolerant of it (my comment below for example), but I’ve gone on to find the entire reboot and update thing both pointless and wrong headed.
You could have mentioned that the players guide was announced to arrive over a year ago and after several hints from play testers wasn't that well liked. Delays followed and ties with modiphius were cut. The Compendium is the rest of it. Instead of developing a new product over a years time, wod team decided to share it for free with the fans.
That is not actually true. The Players Guide was meant to be produced by Modiphius, but neither fans nor paradox where happy with it. Therefore, they ended the entire agreement with Modiphius and brought the development back inhouse. The companion had only in so far to do with the players guide, that it is World of Darkness own version, deliberately not what it was like in the never released players guide. Therefore, I would not blame Paradox/World of Darkness for that. The Companion is not what is left, but an intervention by the property owner to adjust things.
A new Players Guide, not produced by Modiphius, was announced too.
I could have mentioned that if I knew that. I didn't know that at the time of writing, nor can I say I concretely know it now. If that is true, I don't think it's at all relevant to my review. I'm not going to give a company a pass for their own publishing inconsistencies. It got 2 out of 5 because it's free and there's some material in it that I believe was done well. If they thought the previous material by Modiphius was sub-par and that's why they gave it away free, I don't think that makes it worthy of a kinder review.
@@TwoDTen Don’t bother, it is not true. You couldn’t knew it, because it didn’t happen. I understand why he think that way, because the players guide was announced for ages and then suddenly the Companion came out, with the announced Ravnos and Tzimisce in it. But you can tell that it isn’t true, since the players guide was never intended to present the Salubri nor rules for Humans and Play Testers say, that the companion version of Ravnos and Tzimisce is much better than the Players Guide version.
How can it be the rest of the players guide, when the only content these both have in common were completely rewritten? It just makes no sense!
@@TwoDTen Yep, this is definitely untrue.
V5 is bad corporate art, the whole thing stinks of design by committee.
But, honestly... that's okay! I've much rather have bad art than no art all.
And, come on. You guys are telling me that you aren't excited to find out what the hell is actually going on at Hardsuit Labs right now? The drama behind the scenes there has got to be more interesting than The Fall of London at least.
Found bloodlines about three or so years ago. Really dove into stuff like the gentleman gamer and lore by night to get into the lore. When I started finding v5 shit I nearly instantly lost interest.
Yeah I'm not a huge fan of what they did with the disciplines, especially the level 5 cap. I'm going to look for older editions to play.
The only thing i had a problem with in this review is wanting every boom or have a "General Consent" page in it. Why do they need this? Most if not all TTRP's are very accomidating to the groups that form as well as having session 0s to discuss these type of things. Having it plastered all over the books us a watse of a page for the artwork, rules, errata.
Nah, with internet game play, conventions, and people experiencing the game differently - now more than ever, it's important that all parties involved have a greater understanding about what they're in for.
I think it's incredibly short-sighted (and a tad narcissistic) to assume that everyone is prepared to handle everything the same way. The fact is, we all have different experiences, and experience levels, that impact our lives. We all have different tolerance levels for just about every kind of variable. I think, taking a page to clearly inform people what they're in for in a game isn't going to ruin your average game book.
I appreciate your feedback, but I have to admit I feel like it's coming from a very selfish place with motives that aren't about a loss of "artwork, rules, errata."
@@TwoDTen With the rise of internet play, especially because of what happened last year, most if not all ttrpg players have more than enough access to information about any ttrpg they want to dive into. Adding that page is something added because of outside of game things not the actual game itself. Most if not all of that kind of thing added into a game is so that they push personal ideologies or preferences onto other people.
There are countless videos, forum discussion, discord channels, ect on the subject of finding a group you gel with or helping players to express any uncomfortable feelings they have towards something that came up or could come up in a game. Adding that page, to the physical book copies at least, is in fact a waste of a page. Its like adding to every computer, phone, or other communitcation device a note that says "Treat others kindly because you want to be treated kindly" Not to mention that these kind of things make future changes or adaptions to the material questionable by players/fans of the series. They start to wonder if they changed this or that because they wanted to make a better or easier game for new players or to indoctrinate new/old players into theur way of thinking.
After all the rulebook is more of a guideline for the ST, Dm, or Gm to use and adjust as they see fit. That "Rule" is in pretty much every ttrpg that the person running it can change whatever they want at their table which implies that if they want a non-triggering game they can have that or if they want an ultra-nazi game they can have that. Having this kind of thing in ths game strays from making a game to making a statement.
@@Zorant0Zero Your stance is depending on many assumptions about both people and products, plus a whole tackle box full of logical fallacies. I'm not interested in having this debate, with you, in the comments, even a little bit.
Bottom line: You have your opinion and I have mine. If you like my review but disagree with me on specific points, that's good. That's how this whole deal works. Keep watching and disagreeing. Eventually, I'll say something that resonates with you, specifically, and we can be friends once again.
I appreciate your passion if nothing else.
Thanks for the feedback!
@@TwoDTen Who said I dislike you for your opinion? I enjoy your reviews and am fine discussing differences we have. The only negative is the "box of fallacies" line but I dont take it to heart that we cant find common ground. Saying that doesnt exactly give me anything to work with to help me see your point of view any better.
Keep makin videos bro I still support you in that endeavor.
I just cant get behind your logic on some of your complaints. I don't actually have a huge issue with scaling down disciplines/powers when V:TM games before was just super unbalanced, bloated, and straight "boring" power fantasy. This game NEEDED a reboot in its mechanics/rules and because the rules and mechanics are drastically changing, the lore is getting changed to fit better with the tone/style the game's going. And honestly, there has been retcons in V:TM before, and anything that last WAY longer than it should is going to be retcon sooner or later (Metal Gear Solid games) as an example. Also like the change to making older vamps more powerful through Blood Potency buffs more than just a huge box of broken disciplines that just makes things just awful. A vampire thats a neonate with level 5 disciplines are still significantly weaker than Methuselahs with the same exact disciplines and level because of Exp and Blood Potency shifts. Is the Salubri Bane super punishing ... ya, they should scale back a little on that one. Why do the Ravnos wander? Well clan blood has always dictated in a small scale how there clan focuses there efforts and personality, and the Ravnos antediluvian is dead after the "Week of Nightmares" And the bane is them dying if they sleep in one one spot to long ..... like did you over look all of this? Tzimisce are just paper thin? Well if you read closer, they explain that the older Tzimisce horde in a more old fashion way and still care for controlling things sophistically from the shadows in large mansions/castles, while its the younger Tzimisce that are more paper thin with there obsessions. Also lets get real for a second, Tzimisce have changed before and the dirt clan cures and the new bane are just a trade off. The obsession bane/compulsion is simple, but its easier to play off of it in more interesting ways than having the right dirt for the night. (Little off track here) Is everything prefect and on the right track? Na, I still wish that Tremere get more offensive rituals, I still wish that all the disciplines will get about 3 - 4 more base powers, and wish in the future that they will implement missing things like Gargoyles, Revenants, ect. But I understand that the mechanics and rules have drastically changed and we need to wait for that stuff because its not going to be a simple Copy & Paste job here for how they work.
Thank you for your comment! While I disagree with almost everything you say, I appreciate your unique perspective. I am humbled that you are taking the time to engage with me.
A v5 review??
*wrings hands*