I think the Fact that the Klingons were able to add an element of surprise to the Battle and that they were so Good at outflanking their Opponents in Battle was a tremendous asset.
In fact I like to think the Klingon spent a good few hours cloaked waiting for Sisko to try and break through, once he launch his main attack, the Dominion fleet would be bog down and they could attack and destroy it. I suspect the Klingon lost very few ships in this battle.
One of my favorite scenes occurs right when Sisko orders the fleet into the gap Dukat has opened. After realizing that Dukat has called Galor-class vessels up to blast the Federation ships as they enter the gap, Sisko orders a couple Galaxy-wings to engage them. We next see of a Galor-class vessel blasting Federation ships as they enter the gap, only to be engaged and overwhelmed by the combined firepower of three Galaxy-class ships. I thought it was a cool moment of strategy and we got to see a group of Galaxy-class vessels work together.
To be honest, Galaxies get much flak because of writter need to worf something, but for example in this battle I would dare say they where pivotal for their capacity to engagen many times their numbers, because if the enemy didn't do that, that would mean exploding ships for the enemy as they concentrate fire. Also, I think that "everyone has to run" doesn't apply to those Galaxy wings as they are ordered to protect the flanks.
@@KarolusTemplareV Although if you watch that shot closely, one Galaxy class apparently didn't get the memo because it makes a run directly for the center of the battle lines.
after the Borg and Dominion threat became apperant, the federation did everything to update the Galaxy Class to the extent we see in Yesterdays Enterprise(i know, alternate universe, but still), from the middle to the end of the Dominion War, the Galaxy Class was probably the most effecient warship and troop transport with in some ocasions exeption of the Defiant and perhaps the Intrepid Class..!
@@deanmottershead9208 well, that was also pre-borg tech build up. Most of the federation's ships were older and not really battle tested outside of the cardiassian border wars. Even then, most of those engagements were against an enemy that was weaker technologically.
@@spacegobbieentertainment4270 so what? The point was about defeats the federation has suffered. Is it less of a defeat or a pharraic victory because they invented a technology later?
@@deanmottershead9208 the more I think about it, the more I'm amused at how wolf 359 and the battle of Tyra, was similar. The dominion executed a perfect trap on the federation after finding full fleet orders. The borg assimilated picard and got full fleet orders and tactical movements. Those battles were more akin to slaughter. The battle to retake ds9 was more evenly matched. Especially when the klingons joined the fray. I would agree with a loss, over pyrrhic victory only because they failed the main objective. Not in how they handled the dominion fleet. We're not sure how many dominion forces survived the battle. 200ish federation ships make about 1/3 of the fleet. That is greater proportion than any other surviving battles to date. It wasn't slaughter, and we dont know the extent of dominion fleet losses. If the dominion had far larger number of ship losses, I'd say then it would be pyrrhic. Yes, accounting the wormhole aliens/prophets in interfering with the dominion reinforcements adds to the argument of a pyrrhic victory, but if we take that sole issue out. 1. Federation did not make it to ds9 in time to stop the terrok nor from disabling the minefield. 2. Minefield came down. 3. Atleast 2/3's fleet losses with no data on dominion fleet losses. 4. Retaking ds9, although this was more a secondary to thirdatery objective. (This was the only part that actually succeeded.) Failed in the first two objectives. The situation of fleet losses between fleets is not elaborated enough. On for both sides. What we know is 200 federation ships broke out. Not if any were still fighting, and no info on enemy losses. Would I go on to say it's as bad as the borg defeat? Not by fleet numbers, as a large number of ships still survived. About 11% of the fleet at Tyra made it back. For the borg battle, 2% roughly, (1 out of 49, so about 2/100). Objectively... Not counting prophet issue... It was a loss, decisive loss. Not a complete route and slaughter, like tyra or wolf 359. But still a decisive loss. Retaking ds9 was a win. Yes. But if the prophets hadnt interfered, this would not have been on the table. You factor in the prophets and removing reinforcements... retaking ds9... (plot armor) then yes. Pyrrhic victory... but I really disliked that plot armor.
@@spacegobbieentertainment4270 the federation lost 49 ships and destroyed one borg cube though. We don't have a lot of details about what the Federation knew about the situation they found themselves in. Losing 49 ships to defeat 1 is in my Humble opinion a worse defeat especially as for all the federation knew another dozen or so cubes could have easily on the way. Star Trek uses plot armour or "we invented a thing" a lot. Its especially funny in DS9 when the Breen have the technology to cripple/destroy any federation or romlan ship they feel like. Which the Dominion didn't really seem to take advantage of attacking Earth didn't seem to achieve much I would have thought ship yards or mines for hard to replace minerals
I would point out that just because 200 broke through, it does not mean the remaining 400 were destroyed - they may have simply been bogged down with the Dominion fleet still in furious battle. Further, the moment that the Dominion pulled back, whatever was left was also free to collect the wounded and dead and make for DS9. They deliberately left it nebulous for future episodes, but its anyone's guess what the final count was. I would not call this a Pyrrhic victory by any means - For the first time, the Dominion turned tail and ran. That alone was the massive boost the Allied fleets needed.
I considered that - but that seems unreasonable. A whole big enough to get 200 through and 400 stay behind? And then still consider the numbers there, they would still have huge numbers bearing down and would be leaving the rest to die.. we also have no indication that any survived. The 200 are the ones only ever mentioned.
sorry but disagree. Lore. It's likely only elements of both fed and Klingons ships got through the rest still stuck enganging the Dominion fleet because not close enough to the breaks.
I disagree that Operation Return was intended to effectively win the war. Quite the opposite it was intended to effectively stop them from losing the war. Had it not been for the Romulans coming in after A Pale Moonlight Starfleet still would have lost the war. The success of Operation Return just prevented the Federation from getting beaten much sooner.
The Dominion itself also had help in the form the Cardassians and later on also the Breen. It was basically three vs three, but due to the bad treatment the Dominion gave to the Cardassians they eventually switched sides. I don't know if the 'allies' would have won if the Cardies did not switch.....
Parallels to Antietam for the Union in the American Civil War. Had the Union lost that battle it would have meant defeat shortly thereafter. Victory prevented that although it didn't win the war. It gave them the breather from an immediate threat of defeat. Or Metaurus River in the 2nd Punic War. By preventing Hasdrubal from bringing reinforcements to Hannibal Rome prevents Hannibal having the numbers needed to besiege Rome. Removing that threat on Rome allowed Rome to take the offensive in Sicily and Iberia and finally to Carthage itself and end the war by defeating Hannibal at Zama.
This battle is why the Dominion lost the war. It cost them a lot of ships, yes, but most importantly, it cost them Gul Dukat. A leader and military veteran.
Canonically they were actually quite effective destroyers and played key roles in most engagements. We only see them playing the red shirt role for plot's sake.
AFAIK it is mentioned that most ships work with basic crews to minimize losses. But it still seems to me, the Mirandas are kinda the redshirts of the fleet and serving on them is pretty much a death sentence ...
The entire dominion war was summed up in the words of the founder during the last episode: "When this is all over, you will have lost so many ship, so many lives, your victory will taste as bitter as defeat." And really, this was an accurate depiction of any protracted conflict, be it the second world war, the korean or vietnam wars, or now the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns, years and years of war. At the end of the second world war, there were celebrations upon celebrations at the fact that it was over, and we see the same thing in this series. But within months of the conclusion, the reality truly set in. Tens of millions were dead, hundreds of thousands of homes, churches, bridges, and other vital structures were destroyed. And when the armistace was signed in 1953, ending the korean war, celebration at another conflict ending, veterans and recruits alike were finally coming home, then vietnam, when it ended a decade later, the celebration was more somber, the killing and dying was over, the war was no longer the struggle, but the waste of life. And does anyone remember celebrating the end of the Iraq war in 2011? I dont, the war ended, our men and women came home, and everyone marched on like the thing never happened, meanwhile, 1,000 american soldiers were dead, and nearly 250,000 wounded. While in Iraq, 25,000 militants, and over 100,000 innocent civilians were dead, with untold millions wounded or homeless. The dominion war shows that in a protracted conflict, the reality of what is happening in war becomes more apparent and more sobering every time we do it.
How i always imagined the battle went after the Defiant broke through was this: The Klingon surprise attack catches the Dominion off guard, and while the Defiant manages to slip through a hole the Dominion lines, this also allows the remainder of the Federation ships to pull out of the encirclement and regroup. They figure they're about out of the fight, but I figure that at this point one lone damaged Miranda, which may or may not be blasting Renegade by Styx on an open channel to everyone in the vicinity, starts advancing back towards the Dominion fleet, still in total chaos from the Klingons in their ranks, and seeing that, the rest of the Federation fleet follows in a second all-or-nothing charge, breaking the Dominions final lines and routing the fleet
If we compare both armies, we can see why the federation won this engagement. 1) The federation fleet may have been outnumbered but the dominion made the mistake of advancing through sheer weight of numbers. The Romans made the this mistake at the battle of Cannae. 2) the federation fleet could react faster to orders given since their commanders were in the field, while the dominion commanders where back on DS9 already toasting to victory. 3) They created a co-ordinated flanking manoeuvre with the Klingons being the flanking force. Essentially creating a "hammer and Anvil" strategy. Whilst the dominion were simply using a strategy of double envelopment (which failed) because the Federation commanders saw this ploy and could react against it sooner. 4) the federation fleet attacked early giving them the element of surprise, making the dominion react to the federation advance effectively giving the federation liberty of choosing the site of the battlefield. The dominion could have easily not taken the bait and just waited for the Federation fleet at DS9 Rather than leaving the protection of the station. The Federation had nothing to lose at this point and would try much more aggressive tactics because their backs were against the wall and they knew it. The dominion despite their their reputation for discipline were overconfident and advanced relying on sheer numbers, they were arrogant and did not expect such an aggressive move from the federation. So the dominion blundered into a defeat that was catastrophic for their morale. Proving to the entire Alpha quadrant that they could be defeated. It seemed that the Federation could take defeat after defeat and still keep fighting, but it only took decisive battle against the dominion to make them retreat entirely back to Cardassian space.
A small counterpoint, I would say that while the battle could be described as a Pyrrhic victory on a tactical level, by that I mean looking at the number of ships involved, the losses sustained by each side and the final outcome. On a strategic level it was a major victory, maybe even decisive as the federation alliance never again lost control of DS9 and so never had to worry about Dominion reinforcements arriving from the gamma quadrant for the rest of the conflict.
Couple things: 1) Operation: Return was absolutely crucial to the survival of the Federation. As stated in the previous video, Starfleet morale was at an all-time low, casualties were mounting steadily, and very few, if any, victories were gleaned from fighting the Dominion. Starfleet still hadn't completely adapted to Dominion polaron weaponry, but they were a lot more able to resist those weapons as opposed to the first time they'd encountered them. With what they had available, Starfleet had two options: a battle of attrition, or a mad dash for the wormhole. Make no mistake, Starfleet could not win a battle of attrition against the Dominion. There was never any question about that. The Dominion had far more ships, weapons, troops, supplies...everything needed for a long, drawn-out, utterly punishing affair. Starfleet was still using Miranda-class ships for battles, and that pretty much speaks for itself. Trying to ensure that Dominion reinforcements couldn't get through the wormhole was always key to any hope of an Alpha Quadrant victory. 2) Starfleet's resources, troops, weapons, and ships were continuously being depleted. They simply couldn't mass-produce the way the Dominion could, and even if they somehow cranked out quality ship after quality ship, the Dominion could just throw wave after wave of disposable crap at them until they wore down and were taken out. By taking and holding DS9, that gave Starfleet control over the wormhole, and that made sure Dominion forces couldn't come through it to reinforce what was already in the Alpha Quadrant. So Operation: Return served a twofold purpose: boosting Allied morale by showing the Dominion COULD be defeated, and cutting the supply lines from the Gamma Quadrant off completely. The battle itself was unfortunately rushed, with Dominion forces outmatching and outgunning Starfleet forces roughly 2 to 1. This would be difficult even if Starfleet wasn't fielding outdated, borderline useless ships like the Miranda and Oberth. A multi-pronged assault wouldn't work either, as whoever stayed behind to hold off the bulk of the Dominion forces was basically volunteering for a suicide mission. Were the roles reversed, and Starfleet was doing the defending, they would have been in a much better position because all they'd have to do is just hold formation. Defense is easy: you just dig in, make yourself as asinine as possible to remove from your position, and hold. Starfleet was going to take massive casualties by doing this, no way around it, but considering the timetable, considering the necessity of keeping that wormhole locked down, and the utter need of DS9 being in Starfleet's hands, I think they did the best they could under such obviously unfavorable odds.
After wolf 359 they should have mothballed all the old crap and start pumping out galaxy classes Akira's defiants soverigns steam runners everything not using this horse shit it's like taking on an Abram with a tiger tank
@@HeadlessChickenTO don't forget the Klingons.without them punching a hole in the dominion lines the initial battle would have been lost sisko wouldn't have been able to reach the wormhole in time and plead with the prophets the dominion reinforcements would be in d AQ and it would be game over.
@@nostrum6410 Always thought they left their tacticians and the brains of their military operations back in the Gamma. Instead they priorities equipment and supplies to rebuild and stabilise Cardassia.
I would have gathered a fleet of old unused ships and aimed them at the main dominion ships, engaging their warp drives from a distance. Riker almost did this to the first borg cubes and would have been a very effective solution. After that I would run in the federation fleet using the smallest ships as gunboats firing wave after wave of torpedoes into the dominion lines to jam sensors and continually hit the enemy ships while our cruisers with their more powerful shields spearhead the attack. Hit them with everything, all at once, keep them off balance
This is pretty much what the Prometheus was intended to be. Highly automated with holoprojectors on all decks. Capable of being effectively operated by as few as two MEDICAL holograms. Oh, and it separates into three highly maneuverable attack craft.
Why would the Russians steal our warships when they can just buy 20% of our uranium deposits from corrupt officials? I'm sure the Romulans would have paid for the Prometheus if it had been an option.
If I remember right Dukat screwed up when he ASSUMED no help was coming to back the Federation. So when that 200 ship fleet which basically constitutes a small Armada breaks through thats STILL a large force headed for DS9 not to mention when the Klingons mopping up the flanked Dominion who wouldn't dare focus just on the Human forces or their Klingon allies would just destroy them behind as the now 2 enemy fleets would've used text book maneuvers and played the pincer squeeze game and slaughtered the Dominion fast as that point. While the more and more that broke through raced to back Defiant. That one blunder holding nothing back from that trap basically coated them the battle once Worf arrived and caught them with their pants down.
It was not a bold but desperate move to attack this big Dominion fleet by Sisko and if the klingons didn't make it in time there were most likely no Federation in the future to defend. But did he really have another choice though....
I disagree with the argument that this is a Pyrrhic victory. A Pyrrhic victory is a victory where the costs were so high that the battle might as well have been a loss. Instead I would argue that this was a strategic victory for the Federation Alliance, if one that came at a heavy costs. First, the Federation captured Deep Space 9 and the all-important wormhole. If the Federation had failed to secure control they would have lost the war, and badly. Instead they did capture the single most important strategic position of the war, and held it for the rest of the war, thus denying Delta Quadrant reinforcements for the Dominion. The Dominion never even made a serious attempt to retake the wormhole, for whatever reason. Second, the war gave the Federation Alliance a badly needed victory, which had to be a significant boost to morale. During the opening phase of the war, it really looked like the Federation was going to be steamrollered, and the attitudes of the characters in the show reflected that. After this battle the Federation Alliance at least felt like they were still in this war, and everyone then carried themselves with grim determination to see the war through. The Federation had to go on the attack and achieve victory somewhere, otherwise they would just have been accepting defeat. Thus I would argue why this is a strategic victory instead of a Pyrrhic one. It changed the character of the war in the Federation Alliance's favor, and denied the Dominion the wormhole. Thought I 100% agree that splitting up the fleet would have been a Bad Idea. Either the Dominion fleet could just have fallen back to DS9, making the whole maneuver relatively pointless, of they would have split their fleet as well, and have defeated the Starfleet fleets in detail by using overwhelming force against one track force after another.
They lost 69% or more of their forces for the fleet to do nothing and the battle to be won by the prophets. The exact same result could have been achieved with the defiant cloaking and the fleets staying right where they were
I think it's unfair to the Federation to have known a literal dues ex machina was going to win the day, and that's not something you want to bet the farm on. It was definitely Sisko's last desperate gamble, considering the Prophets didn't even want to be involved with the war. Not to mention based on what they knew, they Needed to take DS9 when the Dominion was taking down the minefield. Sitting around passively was inviting disaster. Saying "but the Prophets will save us!" wasn't going to cut it. Not even getting into how the Defiant's cloak wasn't 100% reliable against Dominion tech. The Defiant was caught at least once roaming Dominion territory, and that was when the Federation and Dominion weren't at war. There's also the fact that as long as the Dominion controlled the wormhole they were going to make attempts at getting ships through it. Either through the use of technology, or perhaps making a deal with beings like the Pah-wraiths. Bottling up the wormhole and keeping it that way was a strategic necessity for the Federation. Yes, the casualties for the battle were absolutely atrocious, no doubt about that. Though they probably inflicted similar casualties to the Dominion at the battle, since the fleet did break through and took control of the wormhole. Without possessing knowledge they couldn't have known, namely that the Prophets would deny the wormhole to the Dominion, I think Sisko made the best choices he could given what he knew. Even if that was a tough choice in a difficult war.
Would like to know where you get that 69% for federation alliance forces losses during battle of operation return? As, as far as I know it has never been stated to a degree of accuracy in any star trek cannon source. Plus if it is a accurate it is small potatoes in comparison to dominion losses of 90-100% sustained in same battle, along with 2400 ships losses in wormhole as well.
Ponibius I agree with you, if I was the dominion I would have stayed at ds9 with 1/3 of the forces cloaked and the station weapons helping. 800+ ships and the station fighting then deep into the battle you get the cloak 400 ships as a surprise and fully functional
I think the reason the dominion never tried to retake the wormhole is that it made 2000 of their ships disappear just because Sisko said "pretty please". Clearly, while that guy is alive, it's not a reliable form of transportation. Better to make your ships and soldiers in the alpha quadrant.
Their captains had some serious balls, to take Miranda-class ships and provide flanking positions for the damn Defiant. Hell, the next two defiants commissioned after this should have been named Setak-A and Majestic-A!
I've watched the battle scenes from Sacrifice of Angels so many times, but when the Sitak's saucer section gets bazooka'd and the ship spins out of control always amazes me. Those Mirandas didn't stand a chance.
There is one flaw to the battle, why was there no oberth class attack wings? They'd have done some serious damage and they'd be the most interesting part of the battle. One ship detects the dominion fleet, instant warp core breach. One hails another oberth in its formation, a massive emp surges through the communications array and activates both self destructs, anothers tactical interface explodes and interfaces tactfully with the officers face, launches photons without opening the hatches. One is painted red enough said, one rams a cardassian ship, one ejects its core onto a dominion battleship One disables auto helm control and has an admiral called holdo attempts to warp into the heart of the dominion fleet, ironically the admiral had to press and hold the o button for override, finally one oberth tries to saucer separate, a function is does not have, losses its anti matter containment and hits some cardassian ships that were going to swap sides, so instead of fighting what they hate, kamikaze dominion fighters they'll save what they love, self destroying oberths. I hope discovery will find one in space dock, moments before it sets out on its 5 year, I mean 5 minute mission to boldly explode, where no one has exploded before.
Splitting up the fleet wouldn't work because the Dominion can split up too. And since the Dominion ships are closer to the station, they need to travel a shorter distance to intercept the Starfleet ships. Depending on how the fleet splits, the Dominion can gain an even bigger advantage. Think about it, 600 Starfleet ships engage 1,200 Dominion ships, 2 to 1 odds. But if they split up, the Dominion can split their forces in ways to maximize their advantage. Instead of having 2 to 1 odds, the Dominion could decide to split its forces in ways to have 3 ships against 1 in some engagements.
KingOfMadCows agree with you the splitting up would only work if the Dominion was unsure of their objective, and if Starfleet ships were appreciably faster than the Dominion ships. They knew DS9 was the objective, and were just as fast.
I think I got into an argument about this tactic on Spacedock. Not only would Federation forces be easier to pick off but a the Dominion could also break off attack wings making several incursions into Federation space where they'd be met by very little resistance.
Headless Chicken of Toronto good point it would provide a good opportunity to raid Federation space. Disrupt supply lines and take out Federation infastructure.
and lets not forget the hesitation on the admiralty for dedicating such a large force to Sisko's operation that would leave almost all of the core worlds vulnerable...including their training centers, shipyards, and other major industries dedicated to the war effort. Sisko definitely rolled a hard 6 while betting big and luckily the house lost. Problem is how. The wormhole aliens are to be the ones who deserve all the credit, Op Return technically failed.
The dominion was 65 years from reinforcements, the prophets weren't going o allow dominion warships safe passage. starfleet was inside the UFP, reinforcement was hours away, what the dominion had present was all they had. defeat in detail was doable.
I think in context - yes it was sensible and pretty much all that Starfleet could do considering the fact that they still moaned about not being a military. We can see the change to darker uniforms during the war and in Voyager more Akira, Defiant and even the Prometheus hull debuting. Starfleet by the time Voyager returns is certainly far more capable martially than it was prior to the Dominion War. You have a large cadre of experienced veterans on top of the fact that you are rebuilding a fleet now bereft of legacy hulls like the aging Excelsior and Miranda...presumably replaced by Intrepids and Akiras respectively with a smattering of Sovereign Refits. Heck even the Sovereign when it debuted in FC would see many upgrades as a result of the Dominion War that would serve it vs the Son'A and later the Reman Scimitar. By the time of the Borg Invasion in 2381 Starfleet was far more capable - but still not enough for the maddened Borg. They were so poor at defending themselves that in the space of hours 63 billion people died and Pluto was destroyed by being consumed...we never deal with that fact again...but there it is... So by 2386/7 when Romulus is destroyed it would be hard to believe that Starfleetis back to exploring willy nilly like in the Titan Novels. Nevermind the Andorian near extinction and at least one coup. I would say that by 2387 Starfleet would be far more militarized and on its way towards even MORE militarization given all of the hostility it faces from literally every side except the Klingon's who probably just see this as a worthy challenge. In fact I would posit that a sensible Starfleet would be more tightly integrating it's defense structure with the KDF and even doing more cross training. If Starfleet by 2400 isn't creating a new splinter faction specifically to be a military (since they by default fill that role anyhow) they are being irresponsible because we never see these planetary naval forces we are told exist...it would be like NATO claiming it isn't a military force but the EU disarms secretly i the background so they can shove money into socialism (this actually is what happened except NATO never said it wasn't a military force) I don't think Starfleet has a choice but to militarize - and Q would approve.Of course they should also use more caution. Boldly going results in quite a bit of trespassing. Why don't you try boldly going wherever the fark you feel like. See what happens. there's a 90% chance you'll end up dead, arrested or severely injured as a result.
The battle to retake DS9 from the Dominion seems to have the same meaning as the destruction of the Death Star by the Rebels in Star Wars. it showed that a force that was thought to be impossible to defeat, could be beaten.
Reported 200 ships broke through during the battle. I assumed the battle was still raging and that Klingon and Starfleet would still had ships engaging the Dominion forces whose back was now broken and their line was faultering. So it's possible allied losses was lower. Now this is just a theory and I need to go back to rewatch episodes following up to Sacrifice of Angels; what if Federation reinforcements in the form of elements from the late 9th fleet. I don't recall how far they were to the staging area before Sisko was forced to press on but let's assume they got that news and decided to push to meet the fleet. Starfleet task forces are usually a mixed bevy of ships of various ship classes with different speeds and ranges. Sisko's fleet would have also had to move at a place for the majority of his forces to arrive at once to DS9, meaning as slow as his slowest ship. If the 9th gathered their fastest ships to move on ahead, I wonder if that element would have made it in time to help with the assault. Maybe around the time the Klingons already messed up the Dominion lines. Again, just a theory.
And something I had always thought after seeing this episode was what was Starfleet's position on high yield weapons? I always though it would have been smarter using something like a cluster of high yield long range torpedoes to clear off key ships in the Dominion lines forcing them to reposition and weaken their formations enough so to smash through with a concentration of heavy hitter cruisers and fast destroyers with fighters screens conducting interference.
I considered that, but then i remembered what Sisko said. The objective was to breakthrough and keeping going.. so 200 were able to get through and left the others for dead? They couldn't get through a whole big enough for 200 ships to get through? And if they were to busy fighting and 200 all of a sudden leave, they're probably dead..
That 200 was probably staggered so they did not have to break through one hole. How many were also without warp drive because of battle damage. Say a captain can breakthrough, but had no warp drive would he set course at impulse? I highly doubt it.
Lore Reloaded Maybe. By the time allied ships were breaking through, Dominion lines were already faultering. Ships were getting through and they were probably scrambling to regroup to seal those gaps. That leaves their flanks open and easier to pick off for those who stayed to keep things mixed up. And TBH, I'm wondering if this would have been part of Sisko's plan to hold as much of the Dominion fleet to prevent pursuit as ships that do break through would he caught between DS9's defences AND a wing of Jem'Hadar fighter ships who would have been fast enough to hint down survivors.
Headless Chicken of Toronto it would have had to been part of the plan. Had any military commander destroyed every hostile in their kill zone in a strategic point defense mission they would have ordered a pursuit. I mean what is the other option? Oh we destroyed all the ships in front of and to the side of us lets just sit here and not pursue the enemy to our rear.
Love seeing galaxy class finally letting rip. Would of been nice to see definite being shielded by 2 galaxy class ships and all 3 smashing there way to DS9
Great video, loving your work. But I disagree that only 200 Federation ships survived. This is only my opinion, but here's how I see it: After the Defiant breaks through and heads for DS9, the remaining Starfleet ships are still fighting and, with the recent arrival of the Klingons, they are able to continue the attack with new energy. The Starfleet engineers manage to overcome the communications jamming and the Allies begin to systematically break the Dominion position since now the odds are now not two-to-one as the Klingons have arrived. Now we're never told how many Klingon ships have joined the fight, only that Worf had trouble convincing Gowron to help. Since the Starfleet contingent was less than Sisko and Ross had planned, it could be argued that even a limited Klingon commitment could be 200-600 ships. Let's say it's 400 or so, not the top or bottom end of the estimate. Now we're looking at up to 1000 Allied ships versus 1250. Why is this important? Well my theory would be that the combined Starfleet-Klingon Fleet, having knocked the Dominion forces off guard, begins a systematic tactical breakthrough, not just a free-for-all, which is certainly how the Defiants breakthrough looked. Much like at the battle of Waterloo the arrival of reinforcements tips the battle in the Allies favour. With these reinforcements and presumably a new fleet commander taking over, a complete fleet breakthrough is attempted. The Galaxy wings and the Klingon Vorcha's grind down the Dominion fleet, fighting harder and more skillfully than they have managed before. So when 200 ships break through that's just the tip of the spear. 600+ ships are still mopping up the Dominion fleet, the battle is still raging, you can't disengage every ship to head for DS9. So the battle still rages on, meaning ONLY 200 ships can continue on. Reasons I'd point this to be the case: Starfleet officers are not thinking in terms of one ship alone getting through. When the USS Defiant punches through, Sisko seems surprised that only the Defiant managed it. Professional military officers will be thinking in terms of breaking the enemies position and then pouring ships through the breach, that's the way you win battles (IMO). Second, breaking through without support it not worth it. The Defiants breakthrough was costly, and relied on luck. The Allies won't attempt it in the same way again. if they can punch hundreds of ships through they can divert some to DS9 and some to surround the presumably disorganised enemy forces causing a heavier defeat to the Dominion. Do I have evidence for this... Well. Here's on or two thoughts: In terms of the communication blackout, Chief O'Brien identifies the problem in seconds, so I think it's prudent to assume that the +600 experienced engineering officers will crack that problem in less than half an hour, as Starfleet engineers thrive in these kinds of situations. Rewatching the episode I'm even more convinced that this kind of strategy, A more systematic breakthrough is whats being attempted, despite the problems Starfleet ships seem to trying to create and widen a breach in the lines, a job which seems easier with the surprise Klingon attack. One thing I'd not noticed before is that after it's stated 200 ships have broken through, Dr Bashir says the USS Cortex reports the Dominion Fleet have broken off the fight, if there were no more Federation ships than those that were on the way to DS9, who exactly were they fighting... Just the Cortez? It seems to me that there are two parts of the fleet at that point, the 200 ships that have broken through and the remaining allied ships, which are still engaged. The other point I'd put out there is that the shot of the Federation ships docking at DS9 shortly after where they don't exactly look like a battered fleet after a pyrrhic victory. They appear almost undamaged, in good order, as if they have truly won a battle, not just by the skin of their teeth. So having said all that I don't think more than a third of the Federation fleet was lost. At most 200 ships. with the Klingons losing 100-150. Would love to know your thoughts on this. After all it's just my opinion. And I'm hoping that I didn't misunderstand the video on this.
It was a very risky move because had the Federation lost, and they almost did lose, it would have crippled them and lost the war. At this point in the war they were fighting a defensive war that they were losing badly. As you said, all engagements up to this point were 80-90% loses for them. Sisko knew that it was risky and what would happen if the attack failed but he also knew that had they not taken the chance then the war would be over because the Federation couldn't keep losing the battles the way they were and that once reinforcements showed up, there was no chance to win. Splitting the fleet wouldn't have worked, the Dominion would have easily countered any movements and picked them off a piece at a time, rolling their main fleet back together as they went. His main flaw in the battle was underestimating Dukat. They guy might have been a bit nuts but he was a brilliant leader and was great at reading his opponent.
The orders were, if anyone get through don't stop until you reach DS9. I would say a bock of 200 ships were federation. That would leave the klingons to mop up, there were 1/4 of the ships would be arika class, another 1/4 would be excellior class, 1/4 would be Galaxy class and 5 defiant class and the rest enterprise E class.
Good summary and analysis. 6:33 "this was a Pyrrhic Victory". You use this term frequently to describe battles (sometimes appropriately) but not here. A Pyrrrhic (or Cadmean) Victory is "a victory that is not worth winning [due to the cost]." -Merriam Webster Not just that there were great casualties. For example, The WW II D-Day Battle of Normandy resulted in horrendous Allied casualties. Over 120K Allied troops died. But gaining a foothold in France led to a quicker end fir the war. It was worth the losses. Not a Pyrrhic victory. In this DS9 episode, tens of thousands of allies were kiled. But the deaths were off-set by saving the failing Federation. In this battle, losses were great but the value of winning was far greater.
Like Doolittle's Raid, Star Fleet needed a win. Plus, if the mine field went down with the Dominion in control of Deep Space 9, then Star Fleet might as well start drafting papers for their unconditional surrender. No price was too high in that battle if the Federation wanted any realistic chance of winning the war.
The Dominion Cardadian Alliance was based on fear to keep everyone in lockstep with the attack. The Federation had to make a hail Mary pass and improvised in the fight.The Federations ability to adapt with great loss being taken was not even in Dominion Cardadian mindset to even to be considered. The Defiant got through and the Idea of Sisko talking to WarmHole Aliens would have been considered Fake News Wich was Siskos Ace in the hole move that brought everything to a head.Good Video 🙂😷
Why does no one discuss the absurdity of two dimensional fights in space? A line of ships does nothing in three dimensional space. These forces were not surrounding deep space nine in a sphere.
For what it’s worth, the tactics used were the best that they could’ve done in such an ad hoc rush adjustment of a grander battle plan. But one thing maybe they could’ve done perhaps better would be to have contingency plans for their comms being jammed. This battle in my opinion was the best I’d ever seen in all of Star Trek, period. As a kid I had never seen such a battle shown on TV of this magnitude. The best battles I saw before that were those of the wrath of Khan and they were one on one. This was fleet vs fleet which I believe had never been shown in such fashion as it had been on Sacrifice of Angels.
Damar reported that the klingons managed to outflank the dominion fleet, meaning the federation klingon fleet had managed to effectively regroup, maybe with federation ships now spread through the dominion lines the klingon attack from the outside meant the dominion began taking heavy losses. Could it be the 200 ships that broke through decided to do so because the dominion was now on the losing end of the battle and the 200 could be spared? I dont think federation losses would have been in the high 60's percentile, they would have fared much better than that. Also when the klingons attacked the federation ships were outmaneuvering the dominion ships and we also saw a Jem Hadar battlecruiser with substantial damage to its nacelle pylon. So even before the klingons arrived the federation was doing plenty of damage
I can say that while I do love Star Trek I never found my self interested in DS9 for some reason I just didn’t care about it, I do love all the other shows and had seen them all several times 😁but after following your videos and the narrative that I really enjoy I found my self looking forward to watch DS9 and had been watching and enjoying it thinking that I really missed out on this show but happy I have several seasons to watch and enjoy thanks.
My understanding was that when those 200 allied ships broke through, they did do because Dominion lines were collapsing. There were probably several hundred other allied ships still fighting the Dominion forces. Either still stuck within their lines or covering for the 200 that broke through. I don’t think the allied forces suffered such heavy losses at all.
Just like poor Jack in the movie "Titanic", the Jem'hadar were fated to lose. Like the James Cameron told Myth Busters, if the door that was that saved Rose was also big enough to save Jack, they would have made the door smaller :). I think the DS9 writers were willing to bring back the Borg or Q on the Federation side to ensure victory :)
Don't split up the whole fleet into lots of smaller ones, it only ever works if you out number your enemy, not the other way round, they can do it too and still intercept you and still outnumber you, the best thing to do is simply attack where they arn't and attempt to draw them off, and allow another force such as the Romulans or Klingons to catch up and attack the real target DS9, or if you must, split off only a single small group of say 50 ships to attack DS9, missing 50 ships from about 600 won't significantly effect the necessity of intercepting such a force, but would also easily take DS9.
Loss of a ship doesn't always mean total loss of crew or hardware. The ships could simply be disabled but salvageable and/or the crews beamed off to another nearby ship. In Naval tactics, it is usually the goal when fighting a large fleet to remove enemy ships from the battle. That doesn't always mean sinking them. Sometimes a disabled ship becomes an obstacle that your enemy has to contend with, which gives you an advantage. Since most space battles seem to follow naval traditions and sometimes tactics, that would make for a very useful tactic.
The Dominion wouldn't have been able to get to earth. There was still the 3rd fleet at earth , and apparently the never seen on screen, the 1st fleet which according to some, was the largest fleet in the federation. Based at Alpha Centuari.
What I don't get is why this battle was fought as if it was some Ground battle with battle lines in 2-d space, when the Klingon reinforcements show how stupid that notion is. There is no need to engage a fleet in the open away from the station and the mine field you control or at least know how it is placed and can be used to your advantage.
The federation was massing for the take over of DS9 anyway and was forced to go early before the rest of the assigned ships showed up and they were lucky the Klingons showed up. I don't understand why the galaxy class ships still had their saucer sections attached? Weren't they suppose to be more powerful and maneuverable without these sections? they should of went ahead and refit them to be dreadnaughts.
I was surprised to hear that Star Fleet was unprepared for loss of coms. I would think they would think of that happening and try to find a way to avoid it. Thanks for the video! I agree that splitting the force to attack DS9 wouldn't be a good idea. Military doctrine states that you should never split your forces in he face of a superior force. However, i will also state that the Federation, apart from the Klingons, don't have that good a grasp on military doctrine. I think the only reason the won against a superior force was because of the Klingon surprise attack. There really isn't any other way they could have won.
The Klingons had out flanked the dominion fleet and caused massive damage to the dominion, of the dominion had a chance to completely destroy the federation fleet they would have and and maybe dukat would have been bettered served taking his cruiser and joining the desperate fight.
With Klingon ships you should consider doing a cloaked assault from behind then push in the front with the none cloaked ships And making a run for it is also very dodgy since that normally results in casualties that can be avoided, punch a hole and have an assault task force board DS9 with large ships with power to shields and nothing else other than some to engines. Also, you can suicide the fighters on key points in the battle line i think they have holograms already who can perform a basic run and detonate. Also when making a run dump plasma from the nacels to cause sensor interference what would allow for small ships to pass through and make the suicide run and make it harder for localized targeting. And when dealing with a partial force that has low martial prowness you can use to above to agrivate and force a mistake on their part.
Ive always thought it strange that 100 yr old mirandas still in service but i have not seen any constitution class still in service. Or newer ships like ambassador class? (Enterprise C) seems like lots of excelsiors, mirandas and galaxy class vessels
They needed that victory...not only for the quadrant but to reinvigorate the failing morale of the fleet. and to ensure the end can come at the speed of plot
This battle harks back to the days of sail where communication was achieved between ships via flags which in the heat of battle and gunsmoke obscuring vision would break down the ability of ships to communicate very quickly. This is where training comes in, I'm going to use the example of the battle of Trafalgar in 1805 during the Napoleonic wars. Admiral Nelson's flagship the HMS Victory was at the head of a column of ships and went straight for the French 1st rate Redoubtable and put itself alongside and began pounding the French ship at close range, meanwhile the French did likewise. British gunnery was generally superior to French gunnery at this time since they had better opportunity to train their crews which was Nelson's thinking. However communication broke down, Admiral Nelson himself was shot fatally and the battle didn't seem to be going well with other French ships closing in on the British flagship. until the captain of HMS Temeraire realised this and unilaterally came to Victory's aid lashing the French ships at close range with grape shot killing hundreds of French sailors who were on deck preparing to board the Victory. That is the history of but one part of this battle but highlights my point about officers thinking for themselves assessing a situation and acting which I think probably applied in this not so far removed space battle in DS9. Yes the Jem Hadar were well trained but not noted for thinking by themselves and reacting to the situation. It was Gul Dukat back at DS9 who was calling the shots. Meanwhile well trained and experienced Starfleet officers were able to act independently without communication with each other and ultimately win the day.
If the dominion had gotten reinforcements then it would have been over. They could barely hold on as it is and the dominion seemed to have as many ships as they needed as long as they could get through the minefield. Therefore, even if the federation had 99% losses it would have been desirable compared to otherwise.
It is more likely that a large number the "200 ships" that broke through the Dominion lines were the Klingons. After their initial surprise arrival/assault on the Dominion forces, the Klingon ships being equipped with cloaking devices would make it far, far easier for them to bypass the rest of the battle altogether and make for the station. And since that was the mission objective, I don't think that in this specific case the Klingons would consider leaving combat to be either a "retreat" or "dishonorable". This is bolstered by the fact that Martok managed to arrive and disembark onto the station just a few moments after Sisco does.
It was an important battle as it showed the federation that, despite its universal military incompetence, it CAN win battles. It was an ugly, messy victory (marred by elements of DS9 that I wasn't as big a fan of) but it was something that gave the federation hope, and that's worth it.
It has been said that the diverse nature of Star Fleet captains and their ability to think independently was an asset against forces such as the Jem Hadar who are pretty much all alike. With communications severed you had no idea what to expect from one Star Fleet ship to the next.
I think the Federation would have done well to invest in some carriers with actual fighter ships and bombers it would have strengthened their numbers even more and help pick off the Dominion ships
Galaxy Class ships had ginormous shuttle bays, they could have been fighter carriers. Building it for TV would have been prohibitively expensive though. Of course it didn't, apparently, ever hold fighters.
I wouldn't really call the shuttle bays on the Galaxy-class ginormous. Sure, the main shuttle bay was pretty big, but the other two were fairly small, not much bigger than one of the cargo holds.
I wonder if Instead of carriers the federation fighters where carried in small numbers in the shuttlebays of the larger ships 2 or 3 a piece so there's not a couple of dedicated carriers but almost all the ships act as carriers for the fighter force
200 or so ships broke out, but I don’t think that all of the other ships were lost. It’s logical to think some were too bogged down in the fight to make a clean break and decided to stick around. There were high losses for sure, but it’s likely that the Dominion lost even more ships in the battle, not counting those lost to the prophets in the wormhole.
I remember reading an article about that. Pretty much it stated that the shields shape and size could be modulated, and that in such a close quarters battle maneuverability would have been more important, the shields would have been kept closer to the hull, otherwise it would have been like trying to make your way through a crowd wearing a sumo suit. In such a case they would not have provided nearly as much hull protection as they would if they were at their optimum settings. Also Mirandas...
Pyrrhic victory is winning the battle yet losing the war due to losses incurred. The federation had no choice but to attack and take DS9, sitting back while the mine field was taken down would mean facing a much larger threat very soon.
We never actual see the total amount of ships the Klingons came with, but considering Worfs reaction, "It was hard for us to convince Gowron to spare us any ships" it indicates that the fleetsize of the Klingons was relative small. Does anybody know how many Klingon ships were involved in this battle? I don't know. Based on what I see onscreen not that many, but other sources say "A massive Klingon fleet attacked the Dominion forces and joined the Federation". Another thing also bothers me a bit about this battle, is the seemingly easily destroyed Jem Hadar Battleship at the end (which was onscreen) only attacked by the Defiant and two Birds of Prey, one BOP smashed into it, another was caught in the explosion and only the Defiant broke free. So, eventually 200 ships break through the lines, but how many Dominion and Cardassian ships were left after this battle? Were they all destroyed? With a 2 to 1 ratio to their advantage it seems unlikely they let any enemy ship pass without a fight. Does this mean the entire 1,254 Dominion fleet was destroyed?
Klingons riding in to save the day, two Galaxy classes forcing a Galor to move with phasers alone, ships of various classes slugging it out... Man DS9 spoiled us.
Just thought about the Star Wars Disney’s hyperspace jump attack Warpin through ships using unmanned fighters jump to warp through the dominion ships Or quick jump into the dominion fleet little ships packed with huge exsposive devices and bang Just a thought only I know it wouldn’t make sense
Starfleet had a nasty habit/belief of 'defending their way to victory'. One has to 'put it on the table to get chopped off' if one wishes to be victorious.
Still another option is modify Oberths with redundant shield generators and false lifesign signals, and load them up with tricobalt weapons and use them as remotely guided missiles, a bit like how in WW2 they turned bombers into crude flying bombs, and send them at warp speed into the Dominion fleet, bit like in SW:TLJ, fleet gone, problem solved, same tactic I suggest against borg cubes, and the Oberths get to have an actual value as a weapon.
the only thing I really question is how fragile all those ships appeared to be. One or two shots and they're gone. As a comparison, you have Voyager, taking on all sorts of battles and proves to be one tough ship. It really seems to me that those ships should've been able to take on a lot more battle damage (and dishing it out) before giving up the ghost.
When you crunch the numbers Star Fleet was hoping to get at a better than 2-1 kill ratio with Orberons and Mirandas as part of their battle line. They also hoped the Dominion didn't attack in force and cripple or wipe them out before they got their plan in motion. I have to go with sending the Klingons or Romulans under cloak to take the station. When the Dominion line breaks to counter attack DS9 then attack the Dominion Fleet.
How come Starfleet were able to field 627 vessels here when the battle of Wolf 359 cost 39 starships, which was considered to be the bulk of the fleet.
Yea, in retrospect I don't know if that was all of their fleet at wolf 359.. it's just that you had TNG pacifism which ultimately led to this.. in the Dominion War they had built up a bit.
In the aftermath of Wolf 359 it was said that Starfleet had been nearly crippled. Increasing your fleet by over 16x is more than "a bit"! And that's not even all the ships Starfleet had at that time, some were held in reserve to defend Earth and many more had already been destroyed.
Lore Reloaded Thanks, also I just finished rewatching DS9 about a week ago. Let me just say after Oberth duty, Starfleet recruiting officer during the Dominion war must have sucked.
the bread and butter of the dominion fleet was Galore class and dominion battleships. the galore class weren't meant for a battleship fight, they were hit and run raiders. the dominion battleships could only fire facing forward. sisko did a defeat in detail, peel off into squadrons and spread out to fight, the dominion only had a finite number of Jem Hadar battleships. suddenly instead of out numbering starfleet the Jem Hadar were in small groups. 1 maybe 2 battleships each, outnumbered several to one by Federation heavy class ships, as the Jem Hadar ships got destroyed starfleet was able to group into larger groups, as the battle progressed you had a diminishing number of Jem Hadar battleships having to face down larger and larger groups of starfleet ships, that and the Dominion battleships were getting flanked and forced to fight like galleons, something they were never designed to do, it was a textbook defeat in detail with starfleet on the winning side.
The battle was necessary and had an unexpected outcome: operational withdrawal of the Dominion front line. The intent was to just retake the station. The result was that the Dominion stopped all offensives, pulled a lot of forces back to the Cardassian border, and even felt the need to stall for time with ceasefire negotiations a few weeks later. It gave the Federation weeks or months worth of breathing room that just maintaining the front line wasn't doing for them. Late in the battle, Dukat became so fixated on the wormhole that he ignored that the Klingons found a weak flank and were rolling up the Dominion lines. We don't know how many Klingon ships were there or how many Starfleet ships were still slugging it out, but there's some evidence that it could have been a total defeat for the Dominion had it gone on for much longer.
I suspect many Klingon ships went hunting for Dominion ships afterwards. The Ninth fleet probably were directed straight to the border and mopping up duties.
what if starfleet breaking off into squadrons and fighting several smaller battles was planned? as in defeat in detail...in those small battles starfleet had numerical superiority. in the end starfleet won, 200 ships broke through and beat a path to DS9..the jem hadar were trained to fight as a large group. by opting for a defeat in detail strategy, sisko maintained numerical superiority.
Let's be serious here. This battle was an ultimate defeat for the starfleet and their allies. The goal of the operation was to retake DS9 and to regain control over the minefield - in time before the Dominion was able to dismantle the mines - in order to prevent Dominion reinforcements to overwhelm the alpha quadrant. 1. only 1 ship was able to break thru early --- failed task 2. even this one ship was late and saw the minefield disabled --- failed task 3. The 200 other ships, whatever type or in whatever status, which were able to break thru, arrived totally out of time --- failed task 4. 1 ship flew into the wormhole to stop somewhat 2.8k ships. C'mon ... The only reason the Federation was still in the business are some wormhole-angels, because the emissary Sisko begged them for help. That is the truth, nothing else. No wormhole thingis, no Federation, that's it. Much more this battle shows the incompetence of the Federation and the Klingons in terms of strategy. Neither they define strategic goals, nor are they capable to work towards reaching them. As Sisko rightly said, the wormhole is key to the alpha quadrant. And then you rely for month on the incompetence of the Dominion to clear a minefield? Seriously? And then, somehow almost just in time, but only almost just, a starfleet captain had the solution to save the free world? C'mon starfleet, fire all your incompetent admirals. Where was "I know everything" Nacheyev? Where was "Kung Fu" Nakamura? Where was the logic of billions of Vulcans, the will to fight of billions of Andorians? Did no Tellarite scream "fuck off, let's attack?" And then, the attack itself. The most important attempt in history so far, and you give a captain (promoted only a few years before) the command over 600 ships? Seriously? No admiral is competent enough? Ok, maybe then it is better to sit back and train some good behaviour for state dinners and let Sisko do the job. Conclusion: Starfleet and the Federation are incompent organisations, and so is the Klingon Empire. They only won this war because of luck, and some shiny moments of single persons; and because of the sacrifice of wormhole angels. Regards
It would have been really cool if they included a sovereign class starship In this battle. Just because we don’t get to see much of what they can do in the films. I’m thinking something along the lines of the enterprise-E stays back to hold off dominion ships instead of a random galaxy wing allowing Sisko to approach ds9 as is done in the episode. It would’ve been a good way to get people hyped for the movies (liked that? See more this fall!) and is in no way influenced by Star Trek online battles where the defiant fights alongside the rotarran and the Enterprise-F.
Earth was in no danger no matter how Star Fleet attacked. Once the Dominion realized Starfleet was going to retake DS9. Gul Dukat had to commit most of his reserves & had severely weaken his defenses to gather enough forces to repel the attack. He says so openly in the lead up to the battle, so any other major offensives would have to be put on hold. If the Dominion loses access to the wormhole; they lose any hope of support from the Gamma quadrant. Even without Starfleet support retaking DS9 would be costly. This means the Dominion's losses were also severe, even if Starfleet's were greater. Finally, Starfleet shows better long range strategic thinking. This is shown in the fact that Starfleet took DS9 pretty much intacted. It just took minor damage & weapons turned off by Rom, which he simply turns back on when Starfleet takes over. When the Dominion took DS9 it suffered heavy damage both inside & out. Also, Sisko set up & had Kira implement a program that crippled pretty much every but life support.
In hindsight, this was a gigantic waste of Federation lives and resources. The plan was to break through and reach the WH before the minefield was disabled, yet the only ship to make it 'in time' was the Defiant, a ship equipped with a Romulan cloaking device. If the Defiant had not been a part of the fleet, it could have made way under cloak to DS9 while the Federation and Dominion fleets were in their initial stand off (there would be no need to take Dukats bait). Martok and Worf could have even taken a shuttle/runabout to Qo'Nos to speak with Gouron and left the IKS Rotarran to aide the Defiant in the covert mission. With the Dominion fleet holding the line against the Federation, DS9 would be undefended when the Defiant (and Rotarran) arrived. One would need only to get close, decloak and fire quantums at the computer core before the Dominion raised the stations shields to prevent the minefield from being detonated. In all likelihood, Weyoun would notice the absence of the Defiant and get the shields up in time, so Sisko would still end up needing to go the divine intervention route but countless Federation ships would have been spared as they held formation at the battle rather than getting drawn in and surrounded. As a bonus, the Dominion fleet would suffer far heavier losses at the battle once the Klingon task force arrived as they'd be pinned between the Klingons and a near full strength Federation fleet rather than just the out of position remnants of the Federation.
@@LoreReloaded That would be the real world explanation. The in universe explanation i believe was that the Sovereigns were being used on diplomatic missions to other worlds to gain new allies. They wouldn't want to send out a beat up Excelsior ship for such important missions, but send their best as a show of "look what we've got". They also would have preferred to keep a Sovereign close to home to defend the core worlds. Also Operation Return was a do or die mission. There was a huge risk of the fleet being lost. There was only a handful of Sovereigns so Starfleet wouldn't want to risk losing them in such a high risk battle. And The Dominion would have known how valuable they are and most likely devoted an entire wing to their destruction. Imagine what a blow to the entire Federation it would be if their crown jewel was destroyed in that battle. Back to the real world. Why would paramount not allow them to use it?? It's the same company.
Here's a tactic starfleet could have used and could have reduced loses considerably, Pull a Tau'ri. That Dominion fleet was so packed together that beaming High yield weapons into the fleet using fighters would have not only punched a hole in their lines but also would have destroyed and damaged many vessels. Also I looked at Eaglemoss, wish they made a BC-304 but first chance I get I'm buying a Prometheus simply because that is my favorite ship in Trek.
Problem is the shielding of the Dominion forces would prevent the transporters from being used for that purpose. Add in the fact that those fighters barely have room for an emergency transporter to begin with, and you have a completely unfeasible tactic. The reason it worked on Stargate is that they either used the Stargate itself to get onto the enemy ship (such as with the two ships Apophis sent early in SG-1) or they didn't have any active shielding like the Asgard, Tau'ri, and Goauld ships did. The Daedalus ran into problems employing that tactic once the Wraith ships started jamming the Asgard beams, which is what the active shielding would do as well.
@@evknucklehead The Federation has other technology to bypassed shields. I presume the Enterprise took good long look at the folded-space transporter use in the episode The High Ground
My whole thing is that if the Klingon attack was a complete surprise then why didn’t they just go on to take the station and split off a small task force to engage the Dominion ship from the rear?
They retook the station, so, yeah, it was worth the loss. If they didn't go the minefield would have definitely come down and Sisko wouldn't have been there to talk the other prophets into stopping those ships. War = Lost if they didn't try.
A pyrrhic victory isn’t what you described. You can’t recover from one, and the next attack will prove fatal. I’m not being an ass, I’m just saying. It symbolizes your last victory because you don’t have the resources to win again. It’s tantamount to defeat.
pity the fed's didn't really do morse code or they could've done what harry did to tom in the space race ep to try & keep organized, you would also think that starfleet after the klingon war & getting ready for the dominion would've started upgrading their ships with a second layer of shields to help them last longer - it would've help greatly cut down the loses they took
I think the Fact that the Klingons were able to add an element of surprise to the Battle and that they were so Good at outflanking their Opponents in Battle was a tremendous asset.
In fact I like to think the Klingon spent a good few hours cloaked waiting for Sisko to try and break through, once he launch his main attack, the Dominion fleet would be bog down and they could attack and destroy it. I suspect the Klingon lost very few ships in this battle.
One of my favorite scenes occurs right when Sisko orders the fleet into the gap Dukat has opened. After realizing that Dukat has called Galor-class vessels up to blast the Federation ships as they enter the gap, Sisko orders a couple Galaxy-wings to engage them. We next see of a Galor-class vessel blasting Federation ships as they enter the gap, only to be engaged and overwhelmed by the combined firepower of three Galaxy-class ships. I thought it was a cool moment of strategy and we got to see a group of Galaxy-class vessels work together.
To be honest, Galaxies get much flak because of writter need to worf something, but for example in this battle I would dare say they where pivotal for their capacity to engagen many times their numbers, because if the enemy didn't do that, that would mean exploding ships for the enemy as they concentrate fire. Also, I think that "everyone has to run" doesn't apply to those Galaxy wings as they are ordered to protect the flanks.
@@KarolusTemplareV
Although if you watch that shot closely, one Galaxy class apparently didn't get the memo because it makes a run directly for the center of the battle lines.
after the Borg and Dominion threat became apperant, the federation did everything to update the Galaxy Class to the extent we see in Yesterdays Enterprise(i know, alternate universe, but still), from the middle to the end of the Dominion War, the Galaxy Class was probably the most effecient warship and troop transport with in some ocasions exeption of the Defiant and perhaps the Intrepid Class..!
Loved watching them rise up and blast away almost shoving those Galors aside.
I like how Wolf359 was supposed to be catastrophic with 40 ships lost, then in DS9 there are thousand ship battles.
That was a bad defeat also 40 ships vs one cube and they lost!
@@deanmottershead9208 well, that was also pre-borg tech build up. Most of the federation's ships were older and not really battle tested outside of the cardiassian border wars. Even then, most of those engagements were against an enemy that was weaker technologically.
@@spacegobbieentertainment4270 so what? The point was about defeats the federation has suffered. Is it less of a defeat or a pharraic victory because they invented a technology later?
@@deanmottershead9208 the more I think about it, the more I'm amused at how wolf 359 and the battle of Tyra, was similar.
The dominion executed a perfect trap on the federation after finding full fleet orders. The borg assimilated picard and got full fleet orders and tactical movements.
Those battles were more akin to slaughter.
The battle to retake ds9 was more evenly matched. Especially when the klingons joined the fray. I would agree with a loss, over pyrrhic victory only because they failed the main objective. Not in how they handled the dominion fleet. We're not sure how many dominion forces survived the battle. 200ish federation ships make about 1/3 of the fleet. That is greater proportion than any other surviving battles to date. It wasn't slaughter, and we dont know the extent of dominion fleet losses. If the dominion had far larger number of ship losses, I'd say then it would be pyrrhic.
Yes, accounting the wormhole aliens/prophets in interfering with the dominion reinforcements adds to the argument of a pyrrhic victory, but if we take that sole issue out.
1. Federation did not make it to ds9 in time to stop the terrok nor from disabling the minefield.
2. Minefield came down.
3. Atleast 2/3's fleet losses with no data on dominion fleet losses.
4. Retaking ds9, although this was more a secondary to thirdatery objective. (This was the only part that actually succeeded.)
Failed in the first two objectives. The situation of fleet losses between fleets is not elaborated enough. On for both sides. What we know is 200 federation ships broke out. Not if any were still fighting, and no info on enemy losses.
Would I go on to say it's as bad as the borg defeat? Not by fleet numbers, as a large number of ships still survived. About 11% of the fleet at Tyra made it back. For the borg battle, 2% roughly, (1 out of 49, so about 2/100).
Objectively...
Not counting prophet issue...
It was a loss, decisive loss.
Not a complete route and slaughter, like tyra or wolf 359. But still a decisive loss.
Retaking ds9 was a win. Yes. But if the prophets hadnt interfered, this would not have been on the table.
You factor in the prophets and removing reinforcements... retaking ds9... (plot armor) then yes. Pyrrhic victory... but I really disliked that plot armor.
@@spacegobbieentertainment4270 the federation lost 49 ships and destroyed one borg cube though. We don't have a lot of details about what the Federation knew about the situation they found themselves in. Losing 49 ships to defeat 1 is in my Humble opinion a worse defeat especially as for all the federation knew another dozen or so cubes could have easily on the way. Star Trek uses plot armour or "we invented a thing" a lot. Its especially funny in DS9 when the Breen have the technology to cripple/destroy any federation or romlan ship they feel like. Which the Dominion didn't really seem to take advantage of attacking Earth didn't seem to achieve much I would have thought ship yards or mines for hard to replace minerals
I would point out that just because 200 broke through, it does not mean the remaining 400 were destroyed - they may have simply been bogged down with the Dominion fleet still in furious battle. Further, the moment that the Dominion pulled back, whatever was left was also free to collect the wounded and dead and make for DS9. They deliberately left it nebulous for future episodes, but its anyone's guess what the final count was. I would not call this a Pyrrhic victory by any means - For the first time, the Dominion turned tail and ran. That alone was the massive boost the Allied fleets needed.
I considered that - but that seems unreasonable. A whole big enough to get 200 through and 400 stay behind? And then still consider the numbers there, they would still have huge numbers bearing down and would be leaving the rest to die.. we also have no indication that any survived. The 200 are the ones only ever mentioned.
We have no real indication, aside of the couple dozen on screen, of how many were destroyed either. Again, deliberate on the writer's part.
I think we do, I think there's enough information to really make the estimation. BUt we may just agree to disagree.
sorry but disagree. Lore. It's likely only elements of both fed and Klingons ships got through the rest still stuck enganging the Dominion fleet because not close enough to the breaks.
We know the Klingons didn't run
I disagree that Operation Return was intended to effectively win the war. Quite the opposite it was intended to effectively stop them from losing the war. Had it not been for the Romulans coming in after A Pale Moonlight Starfleet still would have lost the war. The success of Operation Return just prevented the Federation from getting beaten much sooner.
My phrasing was imprecise
.the Dominion would win the war if the minefield had dropped
Lore Reloaded agreed it would have been game over if those Domion reinforcements had not been blinked out of existence.
The Dominion itself also had help in the form the Cardassians and later on also the Breen. It was basically three vs three, but due to the bad treatment the Dominion gave to the Cardassians they eventually switched sides. I don't know if the 'allies' would have won if the Cardies did not switch.....
Parallels to Antietam for the Union in the American Civil War. Had the Union lost that battle it would have meant defeat shortly thereafter. Victory prevented that although it didn't win the war. It gave them the breather from an immediate threat of defeat. Or Metaurus River in the 2nd Punic War. By preventing Hasdrubal from bringing reinforcements to Hannibal Rome prevents Hannibal having the numbers needed to besiege Rome. Removing that threat on Rome allowed Rome to take the offensive in Sicily and Iberia and finally to Carthage itself and end the war by defeating Hannibal at Zama.
This battle is why the Dominion lost the war. It cost them a lot of ships, yes, but most importantly, it cost them Gul Dukat. A leader and military veteran.
NEVER serve on a Miranda-class starship.
NightRaven 1901 I thought that was the Oberth
No the red shirt is the oberth
Oberth's are explosions in space where as miranda's are torn up hull sections.
I love the Miranda class...but ya. The RedShirt class.
Canonically they were actually quite effective destroyers and played key roles in most engagements. We only see them playing the red shirt role for plot's sake.
A moment of silence for the Seetak and the Majestic, the 2 bravest Mirandas in the entire fleet; i really hope some of their crews managed to survive
AFAIK it is mentioned that most ships work with basic crews to minimize losses. But it still seems to me, the Mirandas are kinda the redshirts of the fleet and serving on them is pretty much a death sentence ...
The entire dominion war was summed up in the words of the founder during the last episode: "When this is all over, you will have lost so many ship, so many lives, your victory will taste as bitter as defeat."
And really, this was an accurate depiction of any protracted conflict, be it the second world war, the korean or vietnam wars, or now the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns, years and years of war. At the end of the second world war, there were celebrations upon celebrations at the fact that it was over, and we see the same thing in this series. But within months of the conclusion, the reality truly set in. Tens of millions were dead, hundreds of thousands of homes, churches, bridges, and other vital structures were destroyed. And when the armistace was signed in 1953, ending the korean war, celebration at another conflict ending, veterans and recruits alike were finally coming home, then vietnam, when it ended a decade later, the celebration was more somber, the killing and dying was over, the war was no longer the struggle, but the waste of life.
And does anyone remember celebrating the end of the Iraq war in 2011? I dont, the war ended, our men and women came home, and everyone marched on like the thing never happened, meanwhile, 1,000 american soldiers were dead, and nearly 250,000 wounded. While in Iraq, 25,000 militants, and over 100,000 innocent civilians were dead, with untold millions wounded or homeless. The dominion war shows that in a protracted conflict, the reality of what is happening in war becomes more apparent and more sobering every time we do it.
Good analysis! That whole storyline was a high water mark for Star Trek on TV.
How i always imagined the battle went after the Defiant broke through was this:
The Klingon surprise attack catches the Dominion off guard, and while the Defiant manages to slip through a hole the Dominion lines, this also allows the remainder of the Federation ships to pull out of the encirclement and regroup. They figure they're about out of the fight, but I figure that at this point one lone damaged Miranda, which may or may not be blasting Renegade by Styx on an open channel to everyone in the vicinity, starts advancing back towards the Dominion fleet, still in total chaos from the Klingons in their ranks, and seeing that, the rest of the Federation fleet follows in a second all-or-nothing charge, breaking the Dominions final lines and routing the fleet
If we compare both armies, we can see why the federation won this engagement.
1) The federation fleet may have been outnumbered but the dominion made the mistake of advancing through sheer weight of numbers. The Romans made the this mistake at the battle of Cannae.
2) the federation fleet could react faster to orders given since their commanders were in the field, while the dominion commanders where back on DS9 already toasting to victory.
3) They created a co-ordinated flanking manoeuvre with the Klingons being the flanking force. Essentially creating a "hammer and Anvil" strategy. Whilst the dominion were simply using a strategy of double envelopment (which failed) because the Federation commanders saw this ploy and could react against it sooner.
4) the federation fleet attacked early giving them the element of surprise, making the dominion react to the federation advance effectively giving the federation liberty of choosing the site of the battlefield. The dominion could have easily not taken the bait and just waited for the Federation fleet at DS9 Rather than leaving the protection of the station.
The Federation had nothing to lose at this point and would try much more aggressive tactics because their backs were against the wall and they knew it. The dominion despite their their reputation for discipline were overconfident and advanced relying on sheer numbers, they were arrogant and did not expect such an aggressive move from the federation.
So the dominion blundered into a defeat that was catastrophic for their morale. Proving to the entire Alpha quadrant that they could be defeated. It seemed that the Federation could take defeat after defeat and still keep fighting, but it only took decisive battle against the dominion to make them retreat entirely back to Cardassian space.
A small counterpoint, I would say that while the battle could be described as a Pyrrhic victory on a tactical level, by that I mean looking at the number of ships involved, the losses sustained by each side and the final outcome. On a strategic level it was a major victory, maybe even decisive as the federation alliance never again lost control of DS9 and so never had to worry about Dominion reinforcements arriving from the gamma quadrant for the rest of the conflict.
Couple things:
1) Operation: Return was absolutely crucial to the survival of the Federation. As stated in the previous video, Starfleet morale was at an all-time low, casualties were mounting steadily, and very few, if any, victories were gleaned from fighting the Dominion. Starfleet still hadn't completely adapted to Dominion polaron weaponry, but they were a lot more able to resist those weapons as opposed to the first time they'd encountered them. With what they had available, Starfleet had two options: a battle of attrition, or a mad dash for the wormhole.
Make no mistake, Starfleet could not win a battle of attrition against the Dominion. There was never any question about that. The Dominion had far more ships, weapons, troops, supplies...everything needed for a long, drawn-out, utterly punishing affair. Starfleet was still using Miranda-class ships for battles, and that pretty much speaks for itself. Trying to ensure that Dominion reinforcements couldn't get through the wormhole was always key to any hope of an Alpha Quadrant victory.
2) Starfleet's resources, troops, weapons, and ships were continuously being depleted. They simply couldn't mass-produce the way the Dominion could, and even if they somehow cranked out quality ship after quality ship, the Dominion could just throw wave after wave of disposable crap at them until they wore down and were taken out. By taking and holding DS9, that gave Starfleet control over the wormhole, and that made sure Dominion forces couldn't come through it to reinforce what was already in the Alpha Quadrant. So Operation: Return served a twofold purpose: boosting Allied morale by showing the Dominion COULD be defeated, and cutting the supply lines from the Gamma Quadrant off completely.
The battle itself was unfortunately rushed, with Dominion forces outmatching and outgunning Starfleet forces roughly 2 to 1. This would be difficult even if Starfleet wasn't fielding outdated, borderline useless ships like the Miranda and Oberth. A multi-pronged assault wouldn't work either, as whoever stayed behind to hold off the bulk of the Dominion forces was basically volunteering for a suicide mission. Were the roles reversed, and Starfleet was doing the defending, they would have been in a much better position because all they'd have to do is just hold formation. Defense is easy: you just dig in, make yourself as asinine as possible to remove from your position, and hold.
Starfleet was going to take massive casualties by doing this, no way around it, but considering the timetable, considering the necessity of keeping that wormhole locked down, and the utter need of DS9 being in Starfleet's hands, I think they did the best they could under such obviously unfavorable odds.
they are lucky the dominion were the worse tacticians since the daleks
Technically, OP Return was a failure. The success is really credited to the wormhole aliens that didn't permit the Dominion reinforcements through.
After wolf 359 they should have mothballed all the old crap and start pumping out galaxy classes Akira's defiants soverigns steam runners everything not using this horse shit it's like taking on an Abram with a tiger tank
@@HeadlessChickenTO don't forget the Klingons.without them punching a hole in the dominion lines the initial battle would have been lost sisko wouldn't have been able to reach the wormhole in time and plead with the prophets the dominion reinforcements would be in d AQ and it would be game over.
@@nostrum6410 Always thought they left their tacticians and the brains of their military operations back in the Gamma. Instead they priorities equipment and supplies to rebuild and stabilise Cardassia.
I would have gathered a fleet of old unused ships and aimed them at the main dominion ships, engaging their warp drives from a distance. Riker almost did this to the first borg cubes and would have been a very effective solution.
After that I would run in the federation fleet using the smallest ships as gunboats firing wave after wave of torpedoes into the dominion lines to jam sensors and continually hit the enemy ships while our cruisers with their more powerful shields spearhead the attack. Hit them with everything, all at once, keep them off balance
Really enjoy the battle break down videos. The dominion war story arc is hands down my favourite in Star Trek
Self-replicating Defiants
Problem solved.
...mother of god..
Crewed by holograms
This is pretty much what the Prometheus was intended to be. Highly automated with holoprojectors on all decks. Capable of being effectively operated by as few as two MEDICAL holograms. Oh, and it separates into three highly maneuverable attack craft.
+Theodore McCarthy They forgot firewall against romulan hackers Lol what was last time when Russians stole US warship?
Why would the Russians steal our warships when they can just buy 20% of our uranium deposits from corrupt officials? I'm sure the Romulans would have paid for the Prometheus if it had been an option.
If I remember right Dukat screwed up when he ASSUMED no help was coming to back the Federation. So when that 200 ship fleet which basically constitutes a small Armada breaks through thats STILL a large force headed for DS9 not to mention when the Klingons mopping up the flanked Dominion who wouldn't dare focus just on the Human forces or their Klingon allies would just destroy them behind as the now 2 enemy fleets would've used text book maneuvers and played the pincer squeeze game and slaughtered the Dominion fast as that point. While the more and more that broke through raced to back Defiant. That one blunder holding nothing back from that trap basically coated them the battle once Worf arrived and caught them with their pants down.
It was not a bold but desperate move to attack this big Dominion fleet by Sisko and if the klingons didn't make it in time there were most likely no Federation in the future to defend.
But did he really have another choice though....
I disagree with the argument that this is a Pyrrhic victory. A Pyrrhic victory is a victory where the costs were so high that the battle might as well have been a loss. Instead I would argue that this was a strategic victory for the Federation Alliance, if one that came at a heavy costs. First, the Federation captured Deep Space 9 and the all-important wormhole. If the Federation had failed to secure control they would have lost the war, and badly. Instead they did capture the single most important strategic position of the war, and held it for the rest of the war, thus denying Delta Quadrant reinforcements for the Dominion. The Dominion never even made a serious attempt to retake the wormhole, for whatever reason.
Second, the war gave the Federation Alliance a badly needed victory, which had to be a significant boost to morale. During the opening phase of the war, it really looked like the Federation was going to be steamrollered, and the attitudes of the characters in the show reflected that. After this battle the Federation Alliance at least felt like they were still in this war, and everyone then carried themselves with grim determination to see the war through. The Federation had to go on the attack and achieve victory somewhere, otherwise they would just have been accepting defeat.
Thus I would argue why this is a strategic victory instead of a Pyrrhic one. It changed the character of the war in the Federation Alliance's favor, and denied the Dominion the wormhole.
Thought I 100% agree that splitting up the fleet would have been a Bad Idea. Either the Dominion fleet could just have fallen back to DS9, making the whole maneuver relatively pointless, of they would have split their fleet as well, and have defeated the Starfleet fleets in detail by using overwhelming force against one track force after another.
They lost 69% or more of their forces for the fleet to do nothing and the battle to be won by the prophets. The exact same result could have been achieved with the defiant cloaking and the fleets staying right where they were
I think it's unfair to the Federation to have known a literal dues ex machina was going to win the day, and that's not something you want to bet the farm on. It was definitely Sisko's last desperate gamble, considering the Prophets didn't even want to be involved with the war. Not to mention based on what they knew, they Needed to take DS9 when the Dominion was taking down the minefield. Sitting around passively was inviting disaster. Saying "but the Prophets will save us!" wasn't going to cut it.
Not even getting into how the Defiant's cloak wasn't 100% reliable against Dominion tech. The Defiant was caught at least once roaming Dominion territory, and that was when the Federation and Dominion weren't at war.
There's also the fact that as long as the Dominion controlled the wormhole they were going to make attempts at getting ships through it. Either through the use of technology, or perhaps making a deal with beings like the Pah-wraiths. Bottling up the wormhole and keeping it that way was a strategic necessity for the Federation.
Yes, the casualties for the battle were absolutely atrocious, no doubt about that. Though they probably inflicted similar casualties to the Dominion at the battle, since the fleet did break through and took control of the wormhole. Without possessing knowledge they couldn't have known, namely that the Prophets would deny the wormhole to the Dominion, I think Sisko made the best choices he could given what he knew. Even if that was a tough choice in a difficult war.
Would like to know where you get that 69% for federation alliance forces losses during battle of operation return? As, as far as I know it has never been stated to a degree of accuracy in any star trek cannon source. Plus if it is a accurate it is small potatoes in comparison to dominion losses of 90-100% sustained in same battle, along with 2400 ships losses in wormhole as well.
Ponibius I agree with you, if I was the dominion I would have stayed at ds9 with 1/3 of the forces cloaked and the station weapons helping. 800+ ships and the station fighting then deep into the battle you get the cloak 400 ships as a surprise and fully functional
I think the reason the dominion never tried to retake the wormhole is that it made 2000 of their ships disappear just because Sisko said "pretty please". Clearly, while that guy is alive, it's not a reliable form of transportation. Better to make your ships and soldiers in the alpha quadrant.
Poor Setak and Majestic. Someone should name a high school after them.
#neverforget
Their captains had some serious balls, to take Miranda-class ships and provide flanking positions for the damn Defiant. Hell, the next two defiants commissioned after this should have been named Setak-A and Majestic-A!
My favorite part was the single pathetic phaser blast that the Majestic fires just before it is destroyed
I've watched the battle scenes from Sacrifice of Angels so many times, but when the Sitak's saucer section gets bazooka'd and the ship spins out of control always amazes me. Those Mirandas didn't stand a chance.
But in large numbers the Miranda's can probably throw quite a punch, like a flock of Bird of Prey's.
There is one flaw to the battle, why was there no oberth class attack wings? They'd have done some serious damage and they'd be the most interesting part of the battle.
One ship detects the dominion fleet, instant warp core breach.
One hails another oberth in its formation, a massive emp surges through the communications array and activates both self destructs, anothers tactical interface explodes and interfaces tactfully with the officers face, launches photons without opening the hatches.
One is painted red enough said, one rams a cardassian ship, one ejects its core onto a dominion battleship
One disables auto helm control and has an admiral called holdo attempts to warp into the heart of the dominion fleet, ironically the admiral had to press and hold the o button for override, finally one oberth tries to saucer separate, a function is does not have, losses its anti matter containment and hits some cardassian ships that were going to swap sides, so instead of fighting what they hate, kamikaze dominion fighters they'll save what they love, self destroying oberths.
I hope discovery will find one in space dock, moments before it sets out on its 5 year, I mean 5 minute mission to boldly explode, where no one has exploded before.
Those Oberths were held back to defend Earth if Sisko failed. That or the 9th fleet was a fleet of Oberths and couldn't join.
t3h51d3w1nd3r lol
Oberths are ticking time bombs in space.
That's VICE admiral Holdo. You give her too much credit.
labels don't matter, all that matters is that oberth self sacrificing
Splitting up the fleet wouldn't work because the Dominion can split up too. And since the Dominion ships are closer to the station, they need to travel a shorter distance to intercept the Starfleet ships.
Depending on how the fleet splits, the Dominion can gain an even bigger advantage.
Think about it, 600 Starfleet ships engage 1,200 Dominion ships, 2 to 1 odds. But if they split up, the Dominion can split their forces in ways to maximize their advantage. Instead of having 2 to 1 odds, the Dominion could decide to split its forces in ways to have 3 ships against 1 in some engagements.
KingOfMadCows agree with you the splitting up would only work if the Dominion was unsure of their objective, and if Starfleet ships were appreciably faster than the Dominion ships. They knew DS9 was the objective, and were just as fast.
I think I got into an argument about this tactic on Spacedock. Not only would Federation forces be easier to pick off but a the Dominion could also break off attack wings making several incursions into Federation space where they'd be met by very little resistance.
Headless Chicken of Toronto good point it would provide a good opportunity to raid Federation space. Disrupt supply lines and take out Federation infastructure.
and lets not forget the hesitation on the admiralty for dedicating such a large force to Sisko's operation that would leave almost all of the core worlds vulnerable...including their training centers, shipyards, and other major industries dedicated to the war effort. Sisko definitely rolled a hard 6 while betting big and luckily the house lost. Problem is how. The wormhole aliens are to be the ones who deserve all the credit, Op Return technically failed.
The dominion was 65 years from reinforcements, the prophets weren't going o allow dominion warships safe passage. starfleet was inside the UFP, reinforcement was hours away, what the dominion had present was all they had. defeat in detail was doable.
I think in context - yes it was sensible and pretty much all that Starfleet could do considering the fact that they still moaned about not being a military. We can see the change to darker uniforms during the war and in Voyager more Akira, Defiant and even the Prometheus hull debuting. Starfleet by the time Voyager returns is certainly far more capable martially than it was prior to the Dominion War. You have a large cadre of experienced veterans on top of the fact that you are rebuilding a fleet now bereft of legacy hulls like the aging Excelsior and Miranda...presumably replaced by Intrepids and Akiras respectively with a smattering of Sovereign Refits. Heck even the Sovereign when it debuted in FC would see many upgrades as a result of the Dominion War that would serve it vs the Son'A and later the Reman Scimitar.
By the time of the Borg Invasion in 2381 Starfleet was far more capable - but still not enough for the maddened Borg. They were so poor at defending themselves that in the space of hours 63 billion people died and Pluto was destroyed by being consumed...we never deal with that fact again...but there it is... So by 2386/7 when Romulus is destroyed it would be hard to believe that Starfleetis back to exploring willy nilly like in the Titan Novels. Nevermind the Andorian near extinction and at least one coup.
I would say that by 2387 Starfleet would be far more militarized and on its way towards even MORE militarization given all of the hostility it faces from literally every side except the Klingon's who probably just see this as a worthy challenge. In fact I would posit that a sensible Starfleet would be more tightly integrating it's defense structure with the KDF and even doing more cross training. If Starfleet by 2400 isn't creating a new splinter faction specifically to be a military (since they by default fill that role anyhow) they are being irresponsible because we never see these planetary naval forces we are told exist...it would be like NATO claiming it isn't a military force but the EU disarms secretly i the background so they can shove money into socialism (this actually is what happened except NATO never said it wasn't a military force)
I don't think Starfleet has a choice but to militarize - and Q would approve.Of course they should also use more caution. Boldly going results in quite a bit of trespassing. Why don't you try boldly going wherever the fark you feel like. See what happens. there's a 90% chance you'll end up dead, arrested or severely injured as a result.
The battle to retake DS9 from the Dominion seems to have the same meaning as the destruction of the Death Star by the Rebels in Star Wars. it showed that a force that was thought to be impossible to defeat, could be beaten.
Reported 200 ships broke through during the battle. I assumed the battle was still raging and that Klingon and Starfleet would still had ships engaging the Dominion forces whose back was now broken and their line was faultering. So it's possible allied losses was lower.
Now this is just a theory and I need to go back to rewatch episodes following up to Sacrifice of Angels; what if Federation reinforcements in the form of elements from the late 9th fleet. I don't recall how far they were to the staging area before Sisko was forced to press on but let's assume they got that news and decided to push to meet the fleet. Starfleet task forces are usually a mixed bevy of ships of various ship classes with different speeds and ranges. Sisko's fleet would have also had to move at a place for the majority of his forces to arrive at once to DS9, meaning as slow as his slowest ship. If the 9th gathered their fastest ships to move on ahead, I wonder if that element would have made it in time to help with the assault. Maybe around the time the Klingons already messed up the Dominion lines. Again, just a theory.
And something I had always thought after seeing this episode was what was Starfleet's position on high yield weapons? I always though it would have been smarter using something like a cluster of high yield long range torpedoes to clear off key ships in the Dominion lines forcing them to reposition and weaken their formations enough so to smash through with a concentration of heavy hitter cruisers and fast destroyers with fighters screens conducting interference.
I considered that, but then i remembered what Sisko said. The objective was to breakthrough and keeping going.. so 200 were able to get through and left the others for dead? They couldn't get through a whole big enough for 200 ships to get through? And if they were to busy fighting and 200 all of a sudden leave, they're probably dead..
That 200 was probably staggered so they did not have to break through one hole. How many were also without warp drive because of battle damage. Say a captain can breakthrough, but had no warp drive would he set course at impulse? I highly doubt it.
Lore Reloaded
Maybe. By the time allied ships were breaking through, Dominion lines were already faultering. Ships were getting through and they were probably scrambling to regroup to seal those gaps. That leaves their flanks open and easier to pick off for those who stayed to keep things mixed up. And TBH, I'm wondering if this would have been part of Sisko's plan to hold as much of the Dominion fleet to prevent pursuit as ships that do break through would he caught between DS9's defences AND a wing of Jem'Hadar fighter ships who would have been fast enough to hint down survivors.
Headless Chicken of Toronto it would have had to been part of the plan. Had any military commander destroyed every hostile in their kill zone in a strategic point defense mission they would have ordered a pursuit. I mean what is the other option? Oh we destroyed all the ships in front of and to the side of us lets just sit here and not pursue the enemy to our rear.
Love seeing galaxy class finally letting rip. Would of been nice to see definite being shielded by 2 galaxy class ships and all 3 smashing there way to DS9
Great video, loving your work. But I disagree that only 200 Federation ships survived. This is only my opinion, but here's how I see it:
After the Defiant breaks through and heads for DS9, the remaining Starfleet ships are still fighting and, with the recent arrival of the Klingons, they are able to continue the attack with new energy. The Starfleet engineers manage to overcome the communications jamming and the Allies begin to systematically break the Dominion position since now the odds are now not two-to-one as the Klingons have arrived.
Now we're never told how many Klingon ships have joined the fight, only that Worf had trouble convincing Gowron to help. Since the Starfleet contingent was less than Sisko and Ross had planned, it could be argued that even a limited Klingon commitment could be 200-600 ships. Let's say it's 400 or so, not the top or bottom end of the estimate. Now we're looking at up to 1000 Allied ships versus 1250.
Why is this important? Well my theory would be that the combined Starfleet-Klingon Fleet, having knocked the Dominion forces off guard, begins a systematic tactical breakthrough, not just a free-for-all, which is certainly how the Defiants breakthrough looked. Much like at the battle of Waterloo the arrival of reinforcements tips the battle in the Allies favour. With these reinforcements and presumably a new fleet commander taking over, a complete fleet breakthrough is attempted. The Galaxy wings and the Klingon Vorcha's grind down the Dominion fleet, fighting harder and more skillfully than they have managed before. So when 200 ships break through that's just the tip of the spear. 600+ ships are still mopping up the Dominion fleet, the battle is still raging, you can't disengage every ship to head for DS9. So the battle still rages on, meaning ONLY 200 ships can continue on.
Reasons I'd point this to be the case:
Starfleet officers are not thinking in terms of one ship alone getting through. When the USS Defiant punches through, Sisko seems surprised that only the Defiant managed it. Professional military officers will be thinking in terms of breaking the enemies position and then pouring ships through the breach, that's the way you win battles (IMO).
Second, breaking through without support it not worth it. The Defiants breakthrough was costly, and relied on luck. The Allies won't attempt it in the same way again. if they can punch hundreds of ships through they can divert some to DS9 and some to surround the presumably disorganised enemy forces causing a heavier defeat to the Dominion.
Do I have evidence for this... Well. Here's on or two thoughts:
In terms of the communication blackout, Chief O'Brien identifies the problem in seconds, so I think it's prudent to assume that the +600 experienced engineering officers will crack that problem in less than half an hour, as Starfleet engineers thrive in these kinds of situations.
Rewatching the episode I'm even more convinced that this kind of strategy, A more systematic breakthrough is whats being attempted, despite the problems Starfleet ships seem to trying to create and widen a breach in the lines, a job which seems easier with the surprise Klingon attack.
One thing I'd not noticed before is that after it's stated 200 ships have broken through, Dr Bashir says the USS Cortex reports the Dominion Fleet have broken off the fight, if there were no more Federation ships than those that were on the way to DS9, who exactly were they fighting... Just the Cortez? It seems to me that there are two parts of the fleet at that point, the 200 ships that have broken through and the remaining allied ships, which are still engaged.
The other point I'd put out there is that the shot of the Federation ships docking at DS9 shortly after where they don't exactly look like a battered fleet after a pyrrhic victory. They appear almost undamaged, in good order, as if they have truly won a battle, not just by the skin of their teeth.
So having said all that I don't think more than a third of the Federation fleet was lost. At most 200 ships. with the Klingons losing 100-150.
Would love to know your thoughts on this. After all it's just my opinion. And I'm hoping that I didn't misunderstand the video on this.
I agree with your take.
It was a very risky move because had the Federation lost, and they almost did lose, it would have crippled them and lost the war. At this point in the war they were fighting a defensive war that they were losing badly. As you said, all engagements up to this point were 80-90% loses for them. Sisko knew that it was risky and what would happen if the attack failed but he also knew that had they not taken the chance then the war would be over because the Federation couldn't keep losing the battles the way they were and that once reinforcements showed up, there was no chance to win. Splitting the fleet wouldn't have worked, the Dominion would have easily countered any movements and picked them off a piece at a time, rolling their main fleet back together as they went. His main flaw in the battle was underestimating Dukat. They guy might have been a bit nuts but he was a brilliant leader and was great at reading his opponent.
Operation return was a complete hail Mary a last desperate attempt to turn the the tide
Sean Mcneill bingo!
The orders were, if anyone get through don't stop until you reach DS9. I would say a bock of 200 ships were federation. That would leave the klingons to mop up, there were 1/4 of the ships would be arika class, another 1/4 would be excellior class, 1/4 would be Galaxy class and 5 defiant class and the rest enterprise E class.
Good summary and analysis.
6:33 "this was a Pyrrhic Victory".
You use this term frequently to describe battles (sometimes appropriately) but not here.
A Pyrrrhic (or Cadmean) Victory is "a victory that is not worth winning [due to the cost]." -Merriam Webster
Not just that there were great casualties.
For example, The WW II D-Day Battle of Normandy resulted in horrendous Allied casualties. Over 120K Allied troops died.
But gaining a foothold in France led to a quicker end fir the war. It was worth the losses. Not a Pyrrhic victory.
In this DS9 episode, tens of thousands of allies were kiled.
But the deaths were off-set by saving the failing Federation.
In this battle, losses were great but the value of winning was far greater.
Like Doolittle's Raid, Star Fleet needed a win. Plus, if the mine field went down with the Dominion in control of Deep Space 9, then Star Fleet might as well start drafting papers for their unconditional surrender. No price was too high in that battle if the Federation wanted any realistic chance of winning the war.
Starfleet not Star Fleet...
The Dominion Cardadian Alliance was
based on fear to keep everyone in lockstep with the attack.
The Federation had to make a hail Mary pass and improvised in the fight.The Federations ability to adapt with great loss being taken was not even in Dominion Cardadian mindset to even to be considered. The Defiant got through and the Idea of Sisko talking to WarmHole Aliens would have been considered Fake News Wich was Siskos Ace in the hole move that brought everything to a head.Good Video 🙂😷
Why does no one discuss the absurdity of two dimensional fights in space? A line of ships does nothing in three dimensional space. These forces were not surrounding deep space nine in a sphere.
You almost reached 20k GG, I've been watching you since ~6k subs
Yea, we met on a facebook page i think ;) Trying not to watch that number or i'll go mad, but i'm super excited.
Lore Reloaded You remember which one? I cannot remember for the life of me
I actually left it a while back, it was the one with the admin who has the dog channel.. forget the name.
Lore Reloaded I actually started watching your channel specifically on the federation assimilated video, now that feels like a long time ago
This series got me to sub.
For what it’s worth, the tactics used were the best that they could’ve done in such an ad hoc rush adjustment of a grander battle plan. But one thing maybe they could’ve done perhaps better would be to have contingency plans for their comms being jammed. This battle in my opinion was the best I’d ever seen in all of Star Trek, period. As a kid I had never seen such a battle shown on TV of this magnitude. The best battles I saw before that were those of the wrath of Khan and they were one on one. This was fleet vs fleet which I believe had never been shown in such fashion as it had been on Sacrifice of Angels.
Damar reported that the klingons managed to outflank the dominion fleet, meaning the federation klingon fleet had managed to effectively regroup, maybe with federation ships now spread through the dominion lines the klingon attack from the outside meant the dominion began taking heavy losses. Could it be the 200 ships that broke through decided to do so because the dominion was now on the losing end of the battle and the 200 could be spared? I dont think federation losses would have been in the high 60's percentile, they would have fared much better than that. Also when the klingons attacked the federation ships were outmaneuvering the dominion ships and we also saw a Jem Hadar battlecruiser with substantial damage to its nacelle pylon. So even before the klingons arrived the federation was doing plenty of damage
wasnt the minefield outside the entrance to wormhole, this was a do or die mission, admiral ross said it exactly,
Loved this breakdown!
another well made video! Keep it up man!
Glad you enjoy!
Lore Reloaded *screams in joy* _he replied!_
It was worth it. If the Dominion gets reinforcements from the gamma quadrant it's over.
I can say that while I do love Star Trek I never found my self interested in DS9 for some reason I just didn’t care about it, I do love all the other shows and had seen them all several times 😁but after following your videos and the narrative that I really enjoy I found my self looking forward to watch DS9 and had been watching and enjoying it thinking that I really missed out on this show but happy I have several seasons to watch and enjoy thanks.
My understanding was that when those 200 allied ships broke through, they did do because Dominion lines were collapsing. There were probably several hundred other allied ships still fighting the Dominion forces. Either still stuck within their lines or covering for the 200 that broke through. I don’t think the allied forces suffered such heavy losses at all.
This was an epic DS9 episode.
Just like poor Jack in the movie "Titanic", the Jem'hadar were fated to lose. Like the James Cameron told Myth Busters, if the door that was that saved Rose was also big enough to save Jack, they would have made the door smaller :). I think the DS9 writers were willing to bring back the Borg or Q on the Federation side to ensure victory :)
Don't split up the whole fleet into lots of smaller ones, it only ever works if you out number your enemy, not the other way round, they can do it too and still intercept you and still outnumber you, the best thing to do is simply attack where they arn't and attempt to draw them off, and allow another force such as the Romulans or Klingons to catch up and attack the real target DS9, or if you must, split off only a single small group of say 50 ships to attack DS9, missing 50 ships from about 600 won't significantly effect the necessity of intercepting such a force, but would also easily take DS9.
Loss of a ship doesn't always mean total loss of crew or hardware. The ships could simply be disabled but salvageable and/or the crews beamed off to another nearby ship. In Naval tactics, it is usually the goal when fighting a large fleet to remove enemy ships from the battle. That doesn't always mean sinking them. Sometimes a disabled ship becomes an obstacle that your enemy has to contend with, which gives you an advantage. Since most space battles seem to follow naval traditions and sometimes tactics, that would make for a very useful tactic.
The Dominion wouldn't have been able to get to earth. There was still the 3rd fleet at earth , and apparently the never seen on screen, the 1st fleet which according to some, was the largest fleet in the federation. Based at Alpha Centuari.
What I don't get is why this battle was fought as if it was some Ground battle with battle lines in 2-d space, when the Klingon reinforcements show how stupid that notion is. There is no need to engage a fleet in the open away from the station and the mine field you control or at least know how it is placed and can be used to your advantage.
The federation was massing for the take over of DS9 anyway and was forced to go early before the rest of the assigned ships showed up and they were lucky the Klingons showed up. I don't understand why the galaxy class ships still had their saucer sections attached? Weren't they suppose to be more powerful and maneuverable without these sections? they should of went ahead and refit them to be dreadnaughts.
I was surprised to hear that Star Fleet was unprepared for loss of coms. I would think they would think of that happening and try to find a way to avoid it. Thanks for the video! I agree that splitting the force to attack DS9 wouldn't be a good idea. Military doctrine states that you should never split your forces in he face of a superior force. However, i will also state that the Federation, apart from the Klingons, don't have that good a grasp on military doctrine. I think the only reason the won against a superior force was because of the Klingon surprise attack. There really isn't any other way they could have won.
The Klingons had out flanked the dominion fleet and caused massive damage to the dominion, of the dominion had a chance to completely destroy the federation fleet they would have and and maybe dukat would have been bettered served taking his cruiser and joining the desperate fight.
With Klingon ships you should consider doing a cloaked assault from behind then push in the front with the none cloaked ships
And making a run for it is also very dodgy since that normally results in casualties that can be avoided, punch a hole and have an assault task force board DS9 with large ships with power to shields and nothing else other than some to engines.
Also, you can suicide the fighters on key points in the battle line i think they have holograms already who can perform a basic run and detonate.
Also when making a run dump plasma from the nacels to cause sensor interference what would allow for small ships to pass through and make the suicide run and make it harder for localized targeting.
And when dealing with a partial force that has low martial prowness you can use to above to agrivate and force a mistake on their part.
I wouldn't want to be going into this battle in a rickety 100 year old Miranda class.
Especially flanking the flag ship that every Dominion soldier wants dead
Starfleet was lacking in ships badly at this point.
Miranda's are that old does star fleet not make new ships
Ive always thought it strange that 100 yr old mirandas still in service but i have not seen any constitution class still in service. Or newer ships like ambassador class? (Enterprise C) seems like lots of excelsiors, mirandas and galaxy class vessels
gaseous clay Miranda’s were new when the Constitutions were old.
This was an amazing brakedown!
They needed that victory...not only for the quadrant but to reinvigorate the failing morale of the fleet. and to ensure the end can come at the speed of plot
This battle harks back to the days of sail where communication was achieved between ships via flags which in the heat of battle and gunsmoke obscuring vision would break down the ability of ships to communicate very quickly. This is where training comes in, I'm going to use the example of the battle of Trafalgar in 1805 during the Napoleonic wars. Admiral Nelson's flagship the HMS Victory was at the head of a column of ships and went straight for the French 1st rate Redoubtable and put itself alongside and began pounding the French ship at close range, meanwhile the French did likewise. British gunnery was generally superior to French gunnery at this time since they had better opportunity to train their crews which was Nelson's thinking. However communication broke down, Admiral Nelson himself was shot fatally and the battle didn't seem to be going well with other French ships closing in on the British flagship. until the captain of HMS Temeraire realised this and unilaterally came to Victory's aid lashing the French ships at close range with grape shot killing hundreds of French sailors who were on deck preparing to board the Victory. That is the history of but one part of this battle but highlights my point about officers thinking for themselves assessing a situation and acting which I think probably applied in this not so far removed space battle in DS9. Yes the Jem Hadar were well trained but not noted for thinking by themselves and reacting to the situation. It was Gul Dukat back at DS9 who was calling the shots. Meanwhile well trained and experienced Starfleet officers were able to act independently without communication with each other and ultimately win the day.
If the dominion had gotten reinforcements then it would have been over. They could barely hold on as it is and the dominion seemed to have as many ships as they needed as long as they could get through the minefield. Therefore, even if the federation had 99% losses it would have been desirable compared to otherwise.
It is more likely that a large number the "200 ships" that broke through the Dominion lines were the Klingons.
After their initial surprise arrival/assault on the Dominion forces, the Klingon ships being equipped with cloaking devices would make it far, far easier for them to bypass the rest of the battle altogether and make for the station. And since that was the mission objective, I don't think that in this specific case the Klingons would consider leaving combat to be either a "retreat" or "dishonorable".
This is bolstered by the fact that Martok managed to arrive and disembark onto the station just a few moments after Sisco does.
It was an important battle as it showed the federation that, despite its universal military incompetence, it CAN win battles. It was an ugly, messy victory (marred by elements of DS9 that I wasn't as big a fan of) but it was something that gave the federation hope, and that's worth it.
indeed
It has been said that the diverse nature of Star Fleet captains and their ability to think independently was an asset against forces such as the Jem Hadar who are pretty much all alike. With communications severed you had no idea what to expect from one Star Fleet ship to the next.
I think the Federation would have done well to invest in some carriers with actual fighter ships and bombers it would have strengthened their numbers even more and help pick off the Dominion ships
agreed
Galaxy Class ships had ginormous shuttle bays, they could have been fighter carriers. Building it for TV would have been prohibitively expensive though. Of course it didn't, apparently, ever hold fighters.
I wouldn't really call the shuttle bays on the Galaxy-class ginormous. Sure, the main shuttle bay was pretty big, but the other two were fairly small, not much bigger than one of the cargo holds.
I wonder if Instead of carriers the federation fighters where carried in small numbers in the shuttlebays of the larger ships 2 or 3 a piece so there's not a couple of dedicated carriers but almost all the ships act as carriers for the fighter force
200 or so ships broke out, but I don’t think that all of the other ships were lost. It’s logical to think some were too bogged down in the fight to make a clean break and decided to stick around. There were high losses for sure, but it’s likely that the Dominion lost even more ships in the battle, not counting those lost to the prophets in the wormhole.
Star trek.. Shields only applies if its gd visuals otherwise blow up the ship straight away or Hull explosions
Michael foss uhm remember a jemadar fighter wasn't detered by federation shields
SuperGamefreak18 no shields on either side for this battle
I remember reading an article about that. Pretty much it stated that the shields shape and size could be modulated, and that in such a close quarters battle maneuverability would have been more important, the shields would have been kept closer to the hull, otherwise it would have been like trying to make your way through a crowd wearing a sumo suit. In such a case they would not have provided nearly as much hull protection as they would if they were at their optimum settings. Also Mirandas...
Pyrrhic victory is winning the battle yet losing the war due to losses incurred. The federation had no choice but to attack and take DS9, sitting back while the mine field was taken down would mean facing a much larger threat very soon.
We never actual see the total amount of ships the Klingons came with, but considering Worfs reaction, "It was hard for us to convince Gowron to spare us any ships" it indicates that the fleetsize of the Klingons was relative small. Does anybody know how many Klingon ships were involved in this battle? I don't know. Based on what I see onscreen not that many, but other sources say "A massive Klingon fleet attacked the Dominion forces and joined the Federation". Another thing also bothers me a bit about this battle, is the seemingly easily destroyed Jem Hadar Battleship at the end (which was onscreen) only attacked by the Defiant and two Birds of Prey, one BOP smashed into it, another was caught in the explosion and only the Defiant broke free. So, eventually 200 ships break through the lines, but how many Dominion and Cardassian ships were left after this battle? Were they all destroyed? With a 2 to 1 ratio to their advantage it seems unlikely they let any enemy ship pass without a fight. Does this mean the entire 1,254 Dominion fleet was destroyed?
And where was the Enterprise in all this?
in another fleet and front.
"Defending the neutral zone incase the romulans decide to take advantage of the situation"
Saving some BS immortal Amish colony
lol, that was after the Dominion war.
on a 5 yr mission to explore strange new worlds.
Klingons riding in to save the day, two Galaxy classes forcing a Galor to move with phasers alone, ships of various classes slugging it out... Man DS9 spoiled us.
Just thought about the Star Wars Disney’s hyperspace jump attack
Warpin through ships using unmanned fighters jump to warp through the dominion ships
Or quick jump into the dominion fleet little ships packed with huge exsposive devices and bang
Just a thought only I know it wouldn’t make sense
Starfleet had a nasty habit/belief of 'defending their way to victory'. One has to 'put it on the table to get chopped off' if one wishes to be victorious.
I've always wondered why volleys of torpedoes weren't launched.
Starfleet is realizing that they may not win.
Still another option is modify Oberths with redundant shield generators and false lifesign signals, and load them up with tricobalt weapons and use them as remotely guided missiles, a bit like how in WW2 they turned bombers into crude flying bombs, and send them at warp speed into the Dominion fleet, bit like in SW:TLJ, fleet gone, problem solved, same tactic I suggest against borg cubes, and the Oberths get to have an actual value as a weapon.
the only thing I really question is how fragile all those ships appeared to be. One or two shots and they're gone. As a comparison, you have Voyager, taking on all sorts of battles and proves to be one tough ship. It really seems to me that those ships should've been able to take on a lot more battle damage (and dishing it out) before giving up the ghost.
All made of explodium don't you know.
When you crunch the numbers Star Fleet was hoping to get at a better than 2-1 kill ratio with Orberons and Mirandas as part of their battle line. They also hoped the Dominion didn't attack in force and cripple or wipe them out before they got their plan in motion. I have to go with sending the Klingons or Romulans under cloak to take the station. When the Dominion line breaks to counter attack DS9 then attack the Dominion Fleet.
You trust the Romulans or Klingons to give it back?
How come Starfleet were able to field 627 vessels here when the battle of Wolf 359 cost 39 starships, which was considered to be the bulk of the fleet.
Yea, in retrospect I don't know if that was all of their fleet at wolf 359.. it's just that you had TNG pacifism which ultimately led to this.. in the Dominion War they had built up a bit.
In the aftermath of Wolf 359 it was said that Starfleet had been nearly crippled. Increasing your fleet by over 16x is more than "a bit"! And that's not even all the ships Starfleet had at that time, some were held in reserve to defend Earth and many more had already been destroyed.
4:40 You can also imagine how devastating loss of comms would be if you play a team shooter with and without voice chat. Big differences.
*Notification from Lore Reloaded* I guess I'm not that tired yet.
#legend
Lore Reloaded Thanks, also I just finished rewatching DS9 about a week ago. Let me just say after Oberth duty, Starfleet recruiting officer during the Dominion war must have sucked.
the bread and butter of the dominion fleet was Galore class and dominion battleships. the galore class weren't meant for a battleship fight, they were hit and run raiders. the dominion battleships could only fire facing forward. sisko did a defeat in detail, peel off into squadrons and spread out to fight, the dominion only had a finite number of Jem Hadar battleships. suddenly instead of out numbering starfleet the Jem Hadar were in small groups. 1 maybe 2 battleships each, outnumbered several to one by Federation heavy class ships, as the Jem Hadar ships got destroyed starfleet was able to group into larger groups, as the battle progressed you had a diminishing number of Jem Hadar battleships having to face down larger and larger groups of starfleet ships, that and the Dominion battleships were getting flanked and forced to fight like galleons, something they were never designed to do, it was a textbook defeat in detail with starfleet on the winning side.
Poor Miranda's :( I imagine there were Akula/Apollo Refits there too :(
The battle was necessary and had an unexpected outcome: operational withdrawal of the Dominion front line. The intent was to just retake the station. The result was that the Dominion stopped all offensives, pulled a lot of forces back to the Cardassian border, and even felt the need to stall for time with ceasefire negotiations a few weeks later. It gave the Federation weeks or months worth of breathing room that just maintaining the front line wasn't doing for them.
Late in the battle, Dukat became so fixated on the wormhole that he ignored that the Klingons found a weak flank and were rolling up the Dominion lines. We don't know how many Klingon ships were there or how many Starfleet ships were still slugging it out, but there's some evidence that it could have been a total defeat for the Dominion had it gone on for much longer.
I suspect many Klingon ships went hunting for Dominion ships afterwards. The Ninth fleet probably were directed straight to the border and mopping up duties.
what if starfleet breaking off into squadrons and fighting several smaller battles was planned? as in defeat in detail...in those small battles starfleet had numerical superiority. in the end starfleet won, 200 ships broke through and beat a path to DS9..the jem hadar were trained to fight as a large group. by opting for a defeat in detail strategy, sisko maintained numerical superiority.
Let's be serious here. This battle was an ultimate defeat for the starfleet and their allies. The goal of the operation was to retake DS9 and to regain control over the minefield - in time before the Dominion was able to dismantle the mines - in order to prevent Dominion reinforcements to overwhelm the alpha quadrant.
1. only 1 ship was able to break thru early --- failed task
2. even this one ship was late and saw the minefield disabled --- failed task
3. The 200 other ships, whatever type or in whatever status, which were able to break thru, arrived totally out of time --- failed task
4. 1 ship flew into the wormhole to stop somewhat 2.8k ships. C'mon ...
The only reason the Federation was still in the business are some wormhole-angels, because the emissary Sisko begged them for help. That is the truth, nothing else. No wormhole thingis, no Federation, that's it.
Much more this battle shows the incompetence of the Federation and the Klingons in terms of strategy. Neither they define strategic goals, nor are they capable to work towards reaching them. As Sisko rightly said, the wormhole is key to the alpha quadrant. And then you rely for month on the incompetence of the Dominion to clear a minefield? Seriously? And then, somehow almost just in time, but only almost just, a starfleet captain had the solution to save the free world? C'mon starfleet, fire all your incompetent admirals. Where was "I know everything" Nacheyev? Where was "Kung Fu" Nakamura? Where was the logic of billions of Vulcans, the will to fight of billions of Andorians? Did no Tellarite scream "fuck off, let's attack?"
And then, the attack itself. The most important attempt in history so far, and you give a captain (promoted only a few years before) the command over 600 ships? Seriously? No admiral is competent enough? Ok, maybe then it is better to sit back and train some good behaviour for state dinners and let Sisko do the job.
Conclusion:
Starfleet and the Federation are incompent organisations, and so is the Klingon Empire. They only won this war because of luck, and some shiny moments of single persons; and because of the sacrifice of wormhole angels.
Regards
Not possible to jam short-range communications. Think about it.
It would have been really cool if they included a sovereign class starship In this battle. Just because we don’t get to see much of what they can do in the films. I’m thinking something along the lines of the enterprise-E stays back to hold off dominion ships instead of a random galaxy wing allowing Sisko to approach ds9 as is done in the episode. It would’ve been a good way to get people hyped for the movies (liked that? See more this fall!) and is in no way influenced by Star Trek online battles where the defiant fights alongside the rotarran and the Enterprise-F.
3 mins in - sorry, but it's "perra grin" not "perra grine" - the e is 'silent' - they're named after the Peregrine Falcon (a type of bird).
..indeed
Earth was in no danger no matter how Star Fleet attacked. Once the Dominion realized Starfleet was going to retake DS9. Gul Dukat had to commit most of his reserves & had severely weaken his defenses to gather enough forces to repel the attack. He says so openly in the lead up to the battle, so any other major offensives would have to be put on hold. If the Dominion loses access to the wormhole; they lose any hope of support from the Gamma quadrant. Even without Starfleet support retaking DS9 would be costly. This means the Dominion's losses were also severe, even if Starfleet's were greater. Finally, Starfleet shows better long range strategic thinking. This is shown in the fact that Starfleet took DS9 pretty much intacted. It just took minor damage & weapons turned off by Rom, which he simply turns back on when Starfleet takes over. When the Dominion took DS9 it suffered heavy damage both inside & out. Also, Sisko set up & had Kira implement a program that crippled pretty much every but life support.
In hindsight, this was a gigantic waste of Federation lives and resources.
The plan was to break through and reach the WH before the minefield was disabled, yet the only ship to make it 'in time' was the Defiant, a ship equipped with a Romulan cloaking device.
If the Defiant had not been a part of the fleet, it could have made way under cloak to DS9 while the Federation and Dominion fleets were in their initial stand off (there would be no need to take Dukats bait). Martok and Worf could have even taken a shuttle/runabout to Qo'Nos to speak with Gouron and left the IKS Rotarran to aide the Defiant in the covert mission.
With the Dominion fleet holding the line against the Federation, DS9 would be undefended when the Defiant (and Rotarran) arrived. One would need only to get close, decloak and fire quantums at the computer core before the Dominion raised the stations shields to prevent the minefield from being detonated. In all likelihood, Weyoun would notice the absence of the Defiant and get the shields up in time, so Sisko would still end up needing to go the divine intervention route but countless Federation ships would have been spared as they held formation at the battle rather than getting drawn in and surrounded.
As a bonus, the Dominion fleet would suffer far heavier losses at the battle once the Klingon task force arrived as they'd be pinned between the Klingons and a near full strength Federation fleet rather than just the out of position remnants of the Federation.
It would have been nice for the producers of DS9 to include a Sovereign or two in these battles. Since you know, they exist all the same time.
Paramount wouldn't allow it ;/
@@LoreReloaded That would be the real world explanation. The in universe explanation i believe was that the Sovereigns were being used on diplomatic missions to other worlds to gain new allies. They wouldn't want to send out a beat up Excelsior ship for such important missions, but send their best as a show of "look what we've got". They also would have preferred to keep a Sovereign close to home to defend the core worlds.
Also Operation Return was a do or die mission. There was a huge risk of the fleet being lost. There was only a handful of Sovereigns so Starfleet wouldn't want to risk losing them in such a high risk battle. And The Dominion would have known how valuable they are and most likely devoted an entire wing to their destruction. Imagine what a blow to the entire Federation it would be if their crown jewel was destroyed in that battle.
Back to the real world. Why would paramount not allow them to use it?? It's the same company.
Man, a few Sovs there would have been a total game changer.
Here's a tactic starfleet could have used and could have reduced loses considerably, Pull a Tau'ri. That Dominion fleet was so packed together that beaming High yield weapons into the fleet using fighters would have not only punched a hole in their lines but also would have destroyed and damaged many vessels.
Also I looked at Eaglemoss, wish they made a BC-304 but first chance I get I'm buying a Prometheus simply because that is my favorite ship in Trek.
Problem is the shielding of the Dominion forces would prevent the transporters from being used for that purpose. Add in the fact that those fighters barely have room for an emergency transporter to begin with, and you have a completely unfeasible tactic.
The reason it worked on Stargate is that they either used the Stargate itself to get onto the enemy ship (such as with the two ships Apophis sent early in SG-1) or they didn't have any active shielding like the Asgard, Tau'ri, and Goauld ships did. The Daedalus ran into problems employing that tactic once the Wraith ships started jamming the Asgard beams, which is what the active shielding would do as well.
@@evknucklehead The Federation has other technology to bypassed shields. I presume the Enterprise took good long look at the folded-space transporter use in the episode The High Ground
...on another note, why didn't USS Defiant and a bunch of Klingon ships just cloak and rock up at a practically undefended DS9?
My whole thing is that if the Klingon attack was a complete surprise then why didn’t they just go on to take the station and split off a small task force to engage the Dominion ship from the rear?
They retook the station, so, yeah, it was worth the loss. If they didn't go the minefield would have definitely come down and Sisko wouldn't have been there to talk the other prophets into stopping those ships. War = Lost if they didn't try.
It would have been interesting to see how USS Vengeance would have fared during this battle !
Considering it didn't have shields to withstand Polaron weaponry, probably not very well.
Klingons were the Roharim at Helm’s Deep in that scene charging out of the sun to save the battle at the 11th hour.
A pyrrhic victory isn’t what you described. You can’t recover from one, and the next attack will prove fatal. I’m not being an ass, I’m just saying. It symbolizes your last victory because you don’t have the resources to win again. It’s tantamount to defeat.
pity the fed's didn't really do morse code or they could've done what harry did to tom in the space race ep to try & keep organized, you would also think that starfleet after the klingon war & getting ready for the dominion would've started upgrading their ships with a second layer of shields to help them last longer - it would've help greatly cut down the loses they took
TBH I thought the Kobayashi Maru was Starfleet's Kobayashi Maru