I used to ride in a group with Dan, Danny Jr, Kevin Erion and some of the guys from AAR and also HRC in Torrance. I'll tell ya that old man was hard to keep up with on that Alligator out on Ortega Hwy even on the full sport bikes we all had. It was amazing the cornering speeds he could carry on that bike. Plus when we stopped he had some great stories. RIP DG
I never knew this existed, but I've always liked my cruiser bikes to feel like I was part of the bike, rather than just sitting on top of it. Definitely looks like it would be comfortable, and relaxed to ride.
I have a honda PC800 touring bike and a Suzuki Intruder VS700 Chopper with apes and foreward footcontrols. I have allway been thinking about a mix between the two, with full fairings and the touring bike characteristics while also having a real low seat hight and extended arm position... I would feel like I was holding on to a cruisemissile! :D -I'd buy an AAR Alligator in a heartbeat if it had a trunk like my pc800 or even just side boxes! :D
I've known two people who own these bikes. Asking both of them about what it's like to ride, they both say it's not "bad", but clumsy until you reach a certain speed. I never rode one out on the open road, but I was given the opportunity. I took off across the parking lot with the intention of riding the bike out on the road, but it felt so clumsy and unstable that I immediately lost interest. When I brought it back the owner told me that most people do that. Following one down the road, they always looked wobbly and unstable going around corners. In fact, watching this video you can see the guy on the racetrack wobbling noticably while the video talks about the "telepathic handling" 😁 Sorry, but these were not great handling machines lost to history because the masses didn't understand how good they were. These were a very interesting pet project that ultimately just didn't perform well, therefore nobody wanted them. It's a low seat step thru scooter with large wheels.
Dual shock suspension tends to wobble when pushed too hard in the corners because each shock wants to do a different thing than the other, which is what the one running at Goodwood had. Gurney's last iteration of the Alligator used a VFR single sided swingarm with a pull rod actuated shock that was horizontally mounted inside the belly pan and that upon testing one, the test rider said that it handled brilliantly, albeit being kinda twitchy on initial lean in. But in the end, even the test rider credited at least part of the twitchiness to himself not being used to the low riding position, having ridden conventional motorcycles all his life.
I have built several recumbent motorcycles. Some of my builds are almost 9 ft. I think if he would have stretched it out just a few more inches had the seat laid back a smidge more and brought the handlebars back to the rider it would have been more comfortable to ride. He was one of my inspirations for when I was first starting building recumbent motorcycles.
@@proudtitanicdenier4300 True, I don't think he developed it to be a track only toy, seeing how it was fully street legal and he was trying to mass-produce them.
@@proudtitanicdenier4300 Complete bollocks. Dan tested several Alligators on track with Eddie Lawson! Also, having ridden two Alligators, and many other FFs with much longer wheelbases (including both Ecomobiles and Monotracers at the Brno GP circuit I can say with certainty that you are utterly mistaken!
Craig Vetter had a fuel economy challenge some years ago where they rode across country and the winner was the one that got the best mpg! Almost all of them was designed low like this one. Craig had a low tech formula for high mpg. Aerodynamics + 125 - 250cc four stroke single cylinder+ tall gearing. " It doesn't use fuel until the piston goes bang"!
Four-time 500cc GP World Champion Eddie Lawson owns an A6 Alligator, chassis #21, in the Eagle blue and white livery. In 2018, Eddie rode his Gator with us over the backroads of Monterey County, and I had him following me over the super bumpy Carmel Valley Rd…until he finally wicked it up and disappeared in the distance!
All throughout the video, I was thinking the design looked familiar and it only hit me in the end. I'm wondering now if Kaneda's bike from the cult classic Akira took inspiration from this since they share a very similar design.
Otomo - the author of "Akira" manga, said he was inspired by Syd Mead's work, especially the tron light cycle. You might be interested in my Akira Bike Project - building a fully functional full size recumbent aesthetically inspired by Kanedas ride but taking full advantage of what the platform has to offer.
You could add impact protection in a recumbent and get similar protection for frontal collisions to that of a small car, though with the leaned forward position in Gurney's alligator that would be hard to do. I'm building a proper leaning back full size recumbent, check out my project if interested.
@@indian.techsupport that's not true, these kinds of forces are easy for steel to handle. Look at high speed roll cage crashes of rally cars. The three wheeled carver had a short wheelbase and BMW did frontal impact crash tests on it - and it performed as well as a small car. Heck I tboned a car doing 30mph+ on my vstrom and only the front fork was hosed, the frame was fine. You can design a frame so that it has intended weak spots and those collapse, while the primary segments around the rider remain rigid and intact. It's even easier to do this on a recumbent since you have more length to work with and your primary safety mechanism isn't "throw the person head and neck first into an SUV at 30+ mph"
Anyone else here after watching a video called “design matters”? It’s a short video about an English guy doing pretty much the same thing, I’d guess around the same time. He had a very different take on the steering, both cool looking bikes and the idea seems to live on with custom builders making recumbent motorbikes.
What amazes me is that none of the custom motorcycle builders on 90’s, and beyond, cable TV shows, never made anything like a recumbent style motorcycle!. lack of imagination l guess . BTW check out the Honda NM4 (now out of production), and Suzuki’s “G Strider” concept.
The 1953 Norton Kneeler seem like a better way to lower the CG. I couldn't just sit on the Gurney Alligator and take the punishment to my spine, then again my knees wouldn't be too happy after a couple of hours on the Norton! Visibility is the main drawback, seeing and being seen, we all know the consequences of poor visibility. I'm a skinny old man and still ride a sport bike. With knee and shoulder injuries, spreading out my weight seems like the most efficient way to keep riding.
The Kneeler Norton is restored and running, in the Sammy Miller Museum in SW England. It would be interesting to hear from him what it is like to ride. Note to self, a return visit to that museum is long overdue.
Agreed. The riding position of Gurney's alligator is by far the biggest flaw imo. Why make a bike like that but hunch over forward? I'm building a full size fully functional rear engined recumbent with a proper reclined seating position, taking full advantage of the comfort and performance the platform has to offer. Check out my cx500 powered prototype if interested.
Reminds me a LOT of the Honda Helix! I remember being shocked at how long the wheelbase was and how odd the whole thing was until I took it out for a ride. Actually handled really well and was a blast on backroads. Not to mention comfortable
Ever since I discovered the Gurney Alligator motorcycles I've thought it would be could to build a similar chassis for a sport touring type bike built from a 2nd generation Yamaha VMax. In all the time I've pondered the thought of what if, I've yet to see how this could be a bad idea.
Indeed the platform has tremendous potential. You'd probably be interested in my Akira Bike project, I'm aiming to take full advantage of the potential of the platform and laying all the groundwork for manufacturing them, starting in kit forms then moving onto full bikes. Prototype is ICE powered but an electric version will be next.
@@FFVoyager the lower back won't as far back and as low but the wheelbase is stretched because of the battery pack and its weight will create similar handling characteristics
As a short person myself, I think it's really amazing to reach the ground with both feet while also being able to ride a bike with a large-diameter wheel......but I think the handle is too high for the person down to the ground..... Akira bike design is pretty cool
Good video. One minor suggestion, I think you’d have been more on point to compare Dan Gurney to Jim Hall and Jack Brabham, who were also successful drivers, engineers and developed their own brands of racing car.
I was thinking the same thing. To that list I would add Bruce McLaren. Racing used to be really great before all the cars began to be designed, essentially, by the committees running the races rather than the racing teams themselves.
This is what we need. So much of handling on a motorcycle is all about low center of gravity, and if you can do that and make it comfortable, well that's about it. I believe there is some benefit for the ride in making it with a longer wheelbase also.
Heard about this bike years ago, but never found out what happened to it. Thanks for the closure Weirdbike. As a modern hi-perf scooter owner, I see some advantages in the Gurney machine and at least one disadvantage. First the advantages. The power to weight ratio is far better than any of the modern hi-perf offerings and top end output much better. The lack of full body enclosure would make working on the Alligator MUCH easier as opposed to having to remove numerous body panels even to do minor maintenance. The low center of gravity would certainly help in the handling dept. and the comments below attest to this. Disadvantage: Only one that I can tell from the video; a locked-in-one-position seating posture. My 2013 Kymco Xciting 500 Ri scooter is guilty of the latter, and I can't stretch out enuff for comfort ( I'm just under 6'). I'm currently considering another brand hi-perf scooter, and if anyone knows about a late model Gilera GP 800 with moderate mileage for sale, send me an email.
Honestly, i dont see why MORE bikes arent like this to begin with. Most bikes you feel like your going to slide off them when speeding up. So it would be REALLY comfortable to be able to just relax on one. But i have to admit, this thing is probably UNCOMFORTABLE as all hell on long rides. But you COULD bid on one today and get it for about $17,000 or more.
I've never felt like I was going to slide off of any motorcycle I've ridden. I can see a major disadvantage to this design. Visibility for both the rider and car drivers. It looks like your head is on level with most car hoods, which will make it harder for people to see you and harder for you to see over/around other vehicles. That is a huge safety issue that trumps any advantage the design may have.
You'd probably be interested then in my Akira Bike Project - building a fully functional high performance recumbent designed from the ground up to take full advantage of the platform. It has a nice reclined seating position too, not the weird hunched forward but sitting low one in the Alligator. Check out my youtube channel
Chris, I would have to say you are wrong. The position of the seating on a Gator is based on a 911 Porsch. I rode my from Atlanta to CA and have done 3 Iron Butts.
As the owner of a long wheelbase recumbent bicycle I can appreciate the riding advantages of this motorcycle. Always wanted one. My one concern would be while you are certainly noticed by drivers in open areas, riding amongst typically large SUVs and trucks on a busy road makes you essentially invisible. You are when seated the height of a standard riderless motorcycle. So it would be a fun Sunday morning bike on rural roads.
See also Quasar, Voyager - both pre-dating the Alligator. This fact takes nothing away from Gurney and his achievements, but serves as a reminder to fact check what the internet tells us 😎
I was just at the Peterson Automotive museum and saw this for the first time ever and now this video gets suggested to me. What a coincidence. Great video btw.
Is great design and works well, but it takes BIG money to put it into production. If they were made at a reasonable price today the operation making them would make BIG MONEY. If say Honda, or Royal Enfield built one today with one of their more advanced engines they could be marketed as a scooter with attitude, like the touring Bergmans from Suzuki.
Thanks for doing a bit on this unusual bike, I remember Dan working on this and reading some articles on it as he developed it, too bod it never went into full production!!
Recumbent doesn't catch on because it leaves you feeling vulnerable. Combination of not having the ability to stand on the pegs for bumps and being low in the traffic is enough for most rider to pass on this.
@@robmanueb. MTB levels of manoeuvrability and balance are not relevant to riding powered 2 wheelers at speed. Being able to control the steering from a secure riding position is. Speaking as an ex mtb rider/ (road)motor-biker, recumbent bicycle rider, and former owner of a recumbent (“feet forward”)2 wheeler (Royce Creasey’s CMax 2).
Used to see these on Ortega Hwy from time to time. Gurney was almost always on a Harley. Fun chasing him up the road. I was usually on my VFR 800 or my RC51.
Dan was always approachable and very easy and interesting to talk to. Another one was Jay Leno. I used to see him at the Rock Store with one of his cars. Super nice guy. Easy to speak with. Very personable. Both these guys would talk to anyone.
I'm a big fan of Mr. Gurney, his process is well thought out and successful in the end. I would have loved to see his Alligator with the twin cylinder engine design he did. I have a blueprint of this engine on my garage wall, a thing of beauty.
It's just the low centre of gravity that improves handling, although other factors are involved such as rake and trail etc, though I wouldn't feel safe with feet forward position
They could certainly be made safer, but I don't feel like Gurney's Alligator was optimized at all for this. With the low cg you could stop much quicker, if the cg is below the axle of the front wheel, you could actually increase rear wheel loading on hard braking. A decent sized recumbent could also add frontal impact protection and active restraints giving the safety of a small car. I'm trying to take full advantage of what this platform has to offer in my Akira Bike Project, check it out.
Actually low centre of gravity *never* improves handling. If it did , you would see it used on race bikes. Low centre of gravity slows a bike's turn in. If you could lower the CoG to the road surface the bike would be impossible to corner
@@PaulG.x Wrong. COG in of itself has no bearing on turn-in. See the guys on recumbent bicycles, they fair just fine. It all has do with polar moment, more inertia, slower turn-in. In upright bikes that means a high COG to be inline with the riders abdomen. Not so in recumbents, the abdomen is already in line with the lower COG. Technically, Since the bike is now much shorter, and everything far closer to COG, recubments can have a faster turn-in than an upright.
@@PaulG.x A low CoG has advantages and disadvantages and it can certainly improve handling. Google motorcycle engineer Tony Foal's page he has a section on Feet Forward bikes and CoG, or check out his book which has a chapter on it, or John Bradleys books. Motorcycle racing regulations are onerous and basically locked in the modern upright and riding position and subsequently where the CoG can end up. Racing is about competition not innovation and has held back motorcycle design for decades because of this very attitude you're expressing here.
Those should be in production. it's a perfect commuter and light touring bike ,canyon carver,you name it! Stick with the 500-650cc motors, and it could make a huge impact. If nothing else, sell a frame kit for those who want to roll their own!
I've Never Seen This Motorcycle Before And It Looks so Cool!!! I hope somebody bought the companies and brings these motorcycles to market because there is no way that motorbike would not get a ton of attention!! but the price is insane and way too expensive but other than that I think is really cool!!!
Still trying to wrap my head around it. Never judge a bike by the first couple mins on it. Just cause you are not used to it, does not mean it's not great geometry or balance.
Just goes to show, that maxi scooters are actually the best motorcycles (like the Burgman). Smooth, efficient, safe., fast, comfortable, on the road they win in virtually every category.
Dan came to Goodwood in 2012 and met Royce Creasey (FF builder) and Paul Blezard (journalist and FF enthusiast) and he had no knowledge of what had been happening in the UK!
A friend in Bristol UK built an FF with a BSA 500 twin,, it was a bit of a bodge up, but I still thought I it was pretty good. Conventional Motorcycles, with the weight high up, and horrible tele forks are an engineering anachronism,, but the general public are Very conservative & wary of change 😢😂😊
I STILL want to ride one! Though if I were to buy one, I'd definitely want more power. Something in the 110-140hp range with 65-80 lb-ft of torque. Either a crossplane twin or a triple.
Saw it long time ago in a motorcycle magazine , liked it but one thing that bothered me was the two shock absorber set -up that ruined the looks . Fast cornering gonna be scary where your ankle and calf come contact with the road surface .
5:12 First glance it looks rather uncomfortable a bit like sitting on the floor mat but you must lean forward streching forward to reach the bars so all your weight will hurt your boney butt smaller area instead of it spread out on your butt and legs taking the weight like on normal bikes. Also you can't use the backrest and your knees can touch your arms and your belly cramped between your legs and poor low height road visibility and the inferior long wheel base handling. Reminds me of the first cruiser I bought and I ground off the running board stubs the first week and realized that riding style and poor handling definitely wasn't suited for me, but each to their own. Regardless I still would like to try one of these out for the rare experience, and possibly change my opinion.
It may look uncomfortable but its not. when just riding you can sit back and enjoy the ride. However if you are riding hard in the mountains you do tend to lean forward for better handling. The bike is actually designed for someone over 6 feet. I'm 6'2 and find the bike very very comfortable. My arms never touch my knees.
I would like to take one of these and put a thick plush seat on it. Even after doing that it still would be a really low seat. Then I would make a cruiser or possibly even a chopper-ish type of cruiser out of it.
Really makes sense to design a bike like this. Should handle really well. But wouldn't want to know what happens to the private parts in case of a collision 😅
Great video and a good tribute to Gurney's innovation. He laid the groundwork for feet forward bikes with the Alligator. I think the platform has even more potential and I'm aiming to take full advantage of it in my Akira Bike Project . Check out my fully functional high performance prototype build if you are interested in these kinds of bikes or what the future of motorcycling may have to offer!
I don't think he laid the foundations for F/ F m/cycles . A British designer , Roy Creasey ( I think ) built a fully enclosed bike with centre hub steering . This was in the mid seventies . It was called Quaser .
I don’t comment on UA-cam but bro, I’ve been on your website since I had a windows 95 pc as a school kid and now ride a 1st gen hayabusa. A question I always asked myself (since you’re not going the twin ceramic rotor… you know the rest) have you considered some variation of the ohlins hydraulic 2wd system? I think with a wheelbase at the length of yours, the handling would be A1
@@_S-t-a-r-z Thanks for following! yeah it's been a while since I was a kid in a basement lol. those early Hayabusa's are sweet. Yes I absolutely have some plans for 2WD / 2WS! I already have some hardware built for the system.
Ah, Yes...Sometime back My Honda GB500(If You see one with a Suzuki Waterbuffalo 750 four-leading-shoe front brake amongst other mods, you'll know Me) was "helped" by HRC with the addition of an R500 flattrack top end. Dan, then in R&D on the Alligator, challenged Us in a Head-to-Head, which, sadly, did not take place, although I imagine We'd have gotten Our backsides spanked. Play On
it is if it was fully faired it could set some speed records for its engine size but compared to a cruiser bike with a drivers back rest, it doenst look any more comfortable - or to any touring bike its not clear what problem this is trying to solve - for a bicycle its all about aerodynamics while still being able to pedal also the handlebars are too far away - under seat steering would be better one fatal flaw, in an accident there is no chance of being thrown clear, your chest will be crushed
@@kenwittlief255 Put the engine behind the rider, use a true laid back position. Smaller front wheel under the knees of the forward facing legs. You could even use under seat steering for ultimate comfort and view.
I used to ride in a group with Dan, Danny Jr, Kevin Erion and some of the guys from AAR and also HRC in Torrance. I'll tell ya that old man was hard to keep up with on that Alligator out on Ortega Hwy even on the full sport bikes we all had. It was amazing the cornering speeds he could carry on that bike. Plus when we stopped he had some great stories. RIP DG
I never knew this existed, but I've always liked my cruiser bikes to feel like I was part of the bike, rather than just sitting on top of it. Definitely looks like it would be comfortable, and relaxed to ride.
scrunched-up seating position wouldn't work for me. can't really stretch your legs on the move.........
@@raymondo162it needs to be like a feet forward bike
comfortable? the rider looks folded up like an accordian
I have a honda PC800 touring bike and a Suzuki Intruder VS700 Chopper with apes and foreward footcontrols.
I have allway been thinking about a mix between the two, with full fairings and the touring bike characteristics while also having a real low seat hight and extended arm position... I would feel like I was holding on to a cruisemissile! :D
-I'd buy an AAR Alligator in a heartbeat if it had a trunk like my pc800 or even just side boxes! :D
That's an astonishing bike. Certainly deserves maybe even more development by one of the big motorcycle manufacturers.
Oh it's coming, they'll all start making a style like this, even electric ones.
We will finally ride a bike like Akira@@jeremiahshields7827
Look up the Honda NM4 if you haven't already
I've known two people who own these bikes. Asking both of them about what it's like to ride, they both say it's not "bad", but clumsy until you reach a certain speed. I never rode one out on the open road, but I was given the opportunity. I took off across the parking lot with the intention of riding the bike out on the road, but it felt so clumsy and unstable that I immediately lost interest. When I brought it back the owner told me that most people do that. Following one down the road, they always looked wobbly and unstable going around corners. In fact, watching this video you can see the guy on the racetrack wobbling noticably while the video talks about the "telepathic handling" 😁
Sorry, but these were not great handling machines lost to history because the masses didn't understand how good they were. These were a very interesting pet project that ultimately just didn't perform well, therefore nobody wanted them. It's a low seat step thru scooter with large wheels.
Evrbody brain dead these days, this bike must hawe allso poor lean angle
Dual shock suspension tends to wobble when pushed too hard in the corners because each shock wants to do a different thing than the other, which is what the one running at Goodwood had. Gurney's last iteration of the Alligator used a VFR single sided swingarm with a pull rod actuated shock that was horizontally mounted inside the belly pan and that upon testing one, the test rider said that it handled brilliantly, albeit being kinda twitchy on initial lean in.
But in the end, even the test rider credited at least part of the twitchiness to himself not being used to the low riding position, having ridden conventional motorcycles all his life.
Mr. Gurney was a real example of excellence. I always hoped that this motorcycle would come to become a regular-production machine.
Finally, a recumbent motorcycle.
I have built several recumbent motorcycles. Some of my builds are almost 9 ft. I think if he would have stretched it out just a few more inches had the seat laid back a smidge more and brought the handlebars back to the rider it would have been more comfortable to ride. He was one of my inspirations for when I was first starting building recumbent motorcycles.
Such a ridiculously long wheelbase would be useless on a track
@@proudtitanicdenier4300 True, I don't think he developed it to be a track only toy, seeing how it was fully street legal and he was trying to mass-produce them.
Agreed. That setup you describe sounds similar to the Rohorn Racer.
@@proudtitanicdenier4300 Complete bollocks. Dan tested several Alligators on track with Eddie Lawson! Also, having ridden two Alligators, and many other FFs with much longer wheelbases (including both Ecomobiles and Monotracers at the Brno GP circuit I can say with certainty that you are utterly mistaken!
@@pnblondon1087 what lap times did you get
Craig Vetter had a fuel economy challenge some years ago where they rode across country and the winner was the one that got the best mpg! Almost all of them was designed low like this one. Craig had a low tech formula for high mpg. Aerodynamics + 125 - 250cc four stroke single cylinder+ tall gearing. " It doesn't use fuel until the piston goes bang"!
Yes indeed, The AMA used to have the vetter challenge at Laguna Seca AMA races.
@@tonylawson9319 I would have liked to participate in that race.
Four-time 500cc GP World Champion Eddie Lawson owns an A6 Alligator, chassis #21, in the Eagle blue and white livery. In 2018, Eddie rode his Gator with us over the backroads of Monterey County, and I had him following me over the super bumpy Carmel Valley Rd…until he finally wicked it up and disappeared in the distance!
Back in the day I used to ride in a group with Dan. NOBODY could hang with that old man out on Ortega Hwy.
Bullshit story
@@Zooom-s5f Which one?
@@GrampsD63 from Ricky
@@Zooom-s5f I know Eddie had one though
All throughout the video, I was thinking the design looked familiar and it only hit me in the end. I'm wondering now if Kaneda's bike from the cult classic Akira took inspiration from this since they share a very similar design.
Otomo - the author of "Akira" manga, said he was inspired by Syd Mead's work, especially the tron light cycle. You might be interested in my Akira Bike Project - building a fully functional full size recumbent aesthetically inspired by Kanedas ride but taking full advantage of what the platform has to offer.
The Takeaway : I was just thinking the same thing.
Dude your not alone 😂😂😂
Sad we don't see innovation like this in 2024
I wouldn't want to give up the higher visibility over standard sedans just for that lower center of gravity.
You could add impact protection in a recumbent and get similar protection for frontal collisions to that of a small car, though with the leaned forward position in Gurney's alligator that would be hard to do. I'm building a proper leaning back full size recumbent, check out my project if interested.
@@matus1976even if it had an air bag, no motorcycke frame can be strong enough to not completely crush on impact
@@indian.techsupport that's not true, these kinds of forces are easy for steel to handle. Look at high speed roll cage crashes of rally cars. The three wheeled carver had a short wheelbase and BMW did frontal impact crash tests on it - and it performed as well as a small car. Heck I tboned a car doing 30mph+ on my vstrom and only the front fork was hosed, the frame was fine. You can design a frame so that it has intended weak spots and those collapse, while the primary segments around the rider remain rigid and intact. It's even easier to do this on a recumbent since you have more length to work with and your primary safety mechanism isn't "throw the person head and neck first into an SUV at 30+ mph"
@@indian.techsupport check out the crash testing of the BMW C1. 🙄
good point
Anyone else here after watching a video called “design matters”? It’s a short video about an English guy doing pretty much the same thing, I’d guess around the same time. He had a very different take on the steering, both cool looking bikes and the idea seems to live on with custom builders making recumbent motorbikes.
Malcolm Newell. Way earlier and more innovative and much earlier. Followed by more advanced developments by Royce Creasey
What amazes me is that none of the custom motorcycle builders on 90’s, and beyond, cable TV shows, never made anything like a recumbent style motorcycle!.
lack of imagination l guess .
BTW check out the Honda NM4 (now out of production), and Suzuki’s “G Strider” concept.
You said there hasn't been a bike like it since but Honda made the nm4 in 2014
And the DN-01 before that.
Suzuki “G Strider” concept bike.
The 1953 Norton Kneeler seem like a better way to lower the CG. I couldn't just sit on the Gurney Alligator and take the punishment to my spine, then again my knees wouldn't be too happy after a couple of hours on the Norton! Visibility is the main drawback, seeing and being seen, we all know the consequences of poor visibility. I'm a skinny old man and still ride a sport bike. With knee and shoulder injuries, spreading out my weight seems like the most efficient way to keep riding.
The Kneeler Norton is restored and running, in the Sammy Miller Museum in SW England. It would be interesting to hear from him what it is like to ride.
Note to self, a return visit to that museum is long overdue.
Agreed. The riding position of Gurney's alligator is by far the biggest flaw imo. Why make a bike like that but hunch over forward? I'm building a full size fully functional rear engined recumbent with a proper reclined seating position, taking full advantage of the comfort and performance the platform has to offer. Check out my cx500 powered prototype if interested.
You could have a naked cheerleader firing a flame thrower on the back of your bike and some idiot in a car still won’t see you.
Actually you would be very very comfortable on the Gator. I rode mine from Atlanta to CA with no back, knee issues.
Reminds me a LOT of the Honda Helix! I remember being shocked at how long the wheelbase was and how odd the whole thing was until I took it out for a ride. Actually handled really well and was a blast on backroads. Not to mention comfortable
Ruckus too actually
Ever since I discovered the Gurney Alligator motorcycles I've thought it would be could to build a similar chassis for a sport touring type bike built from a 2nd generation Yamaha VMax. In all the time I've pondered the thought of what if, I've yet to see how this could be a bad idea.
It’s pretty easy to make one from a 650 Suzuki Burgman.
They’ll go a little over 100mph.
I’ve done it, and it’s a blast to ride.
It would be interesting to see this reengineered with an electric motor & large (for a bike) battery
Indeed the platform has tremendous potential. You'd probably be interested in my Akira Bike project, I'm aiming to take full advantage of the potential of the platform and laying all the groundwork for manufacturing them, starting in kit forms then moving onto full bikes. Prototype is ICE powered but an electric version will be next.
Bmw is not so far with their electric scooter
@@vercingetorige400 not the same at all.
@@FFVoyager the lower back won't as far back and as low but the wheelbase is stretched because of the battery pack and its weight will create similar handling characteristics
@@vercingetorige400 not it won't. Scooters do not have a supportive seat back. You still have to hang on to the steering to stay aboard.
This is just what I've been looking for.
As a short person myself, I think it's really amazing to reach the ground with both feet while also being able to ride a bike with a large-diameter wheel......but I think the handle is too high for the person down to the ground..... Akira bike design is pretty cool
So basically it's the Honda Helix seating position. No wonder everyone liked it.
Would like to see a recumbent sport bike with light weight wheels and powerful inline four for riding twisties.
Common sense when you look at it I suppose. Far more aerodynamic and lowered centre of gravity.
Very clever.
Good video. One minor suggestion, I think you’d have been more on point to compare Dan Gurney to Jim Hall and Jack Brabham, who were also successful drivers, engineers and developed their own brands of racing car.
Agreed.
I was thinking the same thing. To that list I would add Bruce McLaren. Racing used to be really great before all the cars began to be designed, essentially, by the committees running the races rather than the racing teams themselves.
the sauce was close to satellite communication
This is what we need. So much of handling on a motorcycle is all about low center of gravity, and if you can do that and make it comfortable, well that's about it. I believe there is some benefit for the ride in making it with a longer wheelbase also.
Lookes like it would make a great electric motorcycle.
Paint it red and add a few bits and you basically have the akira motorcycle!
I keep thinking of the Quasar from the 1970's or th monotracer.
and DiFazio......
How about the Honda NM4?!
Getting 70+hp out of an xr650l motor is a stunning achievement on its own.
This guy helped fine time the handling of my car too, every time I hear about him it's always something new & impressive like this
Heard about this bike years ago, but never found out what happened to it. Thanks for the closure Weirdbike. As a modern hi-perf scooter owner, I see some advantages in the Gurney machine and at least one disadvantage. First the advantages. The power to weight ratio is far better than any of the modern hi-perf offerings and top end output much better. The lack of full body enclosure would make working on the Alligator MUCH easier as opposed to having to remove numerous body panels even to do minor maintenance. The low center of gravity would certainly help in the handling dept. and the comments below attest to this. Disadvantage: Only one that I can tell from the video; a locked-in-one-position seating posture. My 2013 Kymco Xciting 500 Ri scooter is guilty of the latter, and I can't stretch out enuff for comfort ( I'm just under 6'). I'm currently considering another brand hi-perf scooter, and if anyone knows about a late model Gilera GP 800 with moderate mileage for sale, send me an email.
Honestly, i dont see why MORE bikes arent like this to begin with. Most bikes you feel like your going to slide off them when speeding up. So it would be REALLY comfortable to be able to just relax on one. But i have to admit, this thing is probably UNCOMFORTABLE as all hell on long rides. But you COULD bid on one today and get it for about $17,000 or more.
I've never felt like I was going to slide off of any motorcycle I've ridden.
I can see a major disadvantage to this design. Visibility for both the rider and car drivers. It looks like your head is on level with most car hoods, which will make it harder for people to see you and harder for you to see over/around other vehicles. That is a huge safety issue that trumps any advantage the design may have.
You'd probably be interested then in my Akira Bike Project - building a fully functional high performance recumbent designed from the ground up to take full advantage of the platform. It has a nice reclined seating position too, not the weird hunched forward but sitting low one in the Alligator. Check out my youtube channel
Chris, I would have to say you are wrong. The position of the seating on a Gator is based on a 911 Porsch. I rode my from Atlanta to CA and have done 3 Iron Butts.
As the owner of a long wheelbase recumbent bicycle I can appreciate the riding advantages of this motorcycle. Always wanted one. My one concern would be while you are certainly noticed by drivers in open areas, riding amongst typically large SUVs and trucks on a busy road makes you essentially invisible. You are when seated the height of a standard riderless motorcycle. So it would be a fun Sunday morning bike on rural roads.
Ah, the old Feet First Bikes. I remember the 1975 Quaser that was going to revolutionise the world ;-)
Theres a blast from the past.... 🤔
Bingo, and others using the CX 500 and V50 engines........DiFazio?
Factory in Bristol....they were quite a common sight for a number of years so as we all know nothing new here......
ua-cam.com/video/MV4qVbNPX_w/v-deo.html
I always likes the Quasar theres some interesting stuff on the web about it if you hunt for it.
See also Quasar, Voyager - both pre-dating the Alligator. This fact takes nothing away from Gurney and his achievements, but serves as a reminder to fact check what the internet tells us 😎
Yeah, knows that, buuuut… Alligator is the most charismatic bike i think!☺️
Please subscribe, it will be interesting here🤝
I was just at the Peterson Automotive museum and saw this for the first time ever and now this video gets suggested to me. What a coincidence. Great video btw.
It looks like Eric Buell learned a thing or two from Mr. Gurney.
I always hated the original seating on motorcycles. This makes so much sense
I think it would make sense for car drivers only
Is great design and works well, but it takes BIG money to put it into production. If they were made at a reasonable price today the operation making them would make BIG MONEY. If say Honda, or Royal Enfield built one today with one of their more advanced engines they could be marketed as a scooter with attitude, like the touring Bergmans from Suzuki.
Look at the Honda Helix
Look at the Honda NM4!
😮 this man did what he set out to do for sure. I so want one.
been riding 50 years this could help me ride another 50 like it thnx
Thanks for doing a bit on this unusual bike, I remember Dan working on this and reading some articles on it as he developed it, too bod it never went into full production!!
Good story thanks. Paul Blezard wrote about this fine machine a few years back, as you expect a Feet Forward afictionado to have done.
Recumbent doesn't catch on because it leaves you feeling vulnerable. Combination of not having the ability to stand on the pegs for bumps and being low in the traffic is enough for most rider to pass on this.
Plus no passenger and other things. The basic thing in riding is feeling free, not caged.
Quite the opposite. Because you have a seat back to brace against you are much more secure and better able to control the bike
@@constantinosschinas4503Most of Royce Creasey’s creations were 2 seaters, with the seat back moving back for the semi-enclosed passenger
@@Siravingmon Yes that is why you see mountain bikers use recumbents.
@@robmanueb. MTB levels of manoeuvrability and balance are not relevant to riding powered 2 wheelers at speed. Being able to control the steering from a secure riding position is. Speaking as an ex mtb rider/ (road)motor-biker, recumbent bicycle rider, and former owner of a recumbent (“feet forward”)2 wheeler (Royce Creasey’s CMax 2).
I think this bike is in the Petersen Auto Museum in L.A. I saw it there a few years ago so probably still there.
Correct. One of the 36 Alligators is indeed there.
Fantastic job on this video
Buell? Buell'er! Erik Buell? This seems right up your alley to make!
Used to see these on Ortega Hwy from time to time. Gurney was almost always on a Harley. Fun chasing him up the road. I was usually on my VFR 800 or my RC51.
Indeed, i saw him at lookout on this and he was nice enough to show and talk about it to a small group of riders.
I was friends with Danny Jr. and used to go riding with thoose guys out there. When Dan was on that thing nobody could catch up to him.
Dan was always approachable and very easy and interesting to talk to. Another one was Jay Leno. I used to see him at the Rock Store with one of his cars. Super nice guy. Easy to speak with. Very personable. Both these guys would talk to anyone.
I like how the headlight was taken from a F4 Honda. Incredible build architecture from one's vision! Thanks Dan Gurney!
the design actually makes sense. probably ahead of its time. it would only need a good community for it to takeoff in the market.
The hump on top of the GT40 is known as the Gurney bubble.
Also known as a Zagato bubble roof
I'm a big fan of Mr. Gurney, his process is well thought out and successful in the end. I would have loved to see his Alligator with the twin cylinder engine design he did. I have a blueprint of this engine on my garage wall, a thing of beauty.
Dan created the Instagator, which is on display at Barber Motorsport in Birmingham
Great idea. I Want one.
It's just the low centre of gravity that improves handling, although other factors are involved such as rake and trail etc, though I wouldn't feel safe with feet forward position
They could certainly be made safer, but I don't feel like Gurney's Alligator was optimized at all for this. With the low cg you could stop much quicker, if the cg is below the axle of the front wheel, you could actually increase rear wheel loading on hard braking. A decent sized recumbent could also add frontal impact protection and active restraints giving the safety of a small car. I'm trying to take full advantage of what this platform has to offer in my Akira Bike Project, check it out.
Actually low centre of gravity *never* improves handling.
If it did , you would see it used on race bikes.
Low centre of gravity slows a bike's turn in.
If you could lower the CoG to the road surface the bike would be impossible to corner
@@PaulG.x Wrong. COG in of itself has no bearing on turn-in. See the guys on recumbent bicycles, they fair just fine. It all has do with polar moment, more inertia, slower turn-in. In upright bikes that means a high COG to be inline with the riders abdomen. Not so in recumbents, the abdomen is already in line with the lower COG. Technically, Since the bike is now much shorter, and everything far closer to COG, recubments can have a faster turn-in than an upright.
@@PaulG.x A low CoG has advantages and disadvantages and it can certainly improve handling.
Google motorcycle engineer Tony Foal's page he has a section on Feet Forward bikes and CoG, or check out his book which has a chapter on it, or John Bradleys books.
Motorcycle racing regulations are onerous and basically locked in the modern upright and riding position and subsequently where the CoG can end up. Racing is about competition not innovation and has held back motorcycle design for decades because of this very attitude you're expressing here.
Those should be in production. it's a perfect commuter and light touring bike ,canyon carver,you name it! Stick with the 500-650cc motors, and it could make a huge impact. If nothing else, sell a frame kit for those who want to roll their own!
Im not a motorcyclist,love all bikes though obsesively😂😂....first time seeing this bike and loving it..❤❤🇿🇦👏
I've Never Seen This Motorcycle Before And It Looks so Cool!!!
I hope somebody bought the companies and brings these motorcycles to market because there is no way that motorbike would not get a ton of attention!!
but the price is insane and way too expensive but other than that I think is really cool!!!
Still trying to wrap my head around it. Never judge a bike by the first couple mins on it. Just cause you are not used to it, does not mean it's not great geometry or balance.
I may sleep while driving 😊
Just goes to show, that maxi scooters are actually the best motorcycles (like the Burgman). Smooth, efficient, safe., fast, comfortable, on the road they win in virtually every category.
as an old man with a very bad back, i would love this.... (depending on suspension too...).
getting on & off is the main impetus....
Just remember that it might be easy to take a seat, but much harder to get out of it again.
Low Center of gravity, that handles well. As any cruiser can confirm … wait!
Most cruisers have the wrong geometry for good handling. Low CofG is great.
Cool motorcycle...closest to Kaneda's bike....from Akira😊
Amazing lumbar support but I doubt the thoracic spine would take a jolt from the rear wheel.
Lots of ff bikes in UK from the 70s+80s so nothing new ......
Dan came to Goodwood in 2012 and met Royce Creasey (FF builder) and Paul Blezard (journalist and FF enthusiast) and he had no knowledge of what had been happening in the UK!
A friend in Bristol UK built an FF with a BSA 500 twin,, it was a bit of a bodge up, but I still thought I it was pretty good.
Conventional Motorcycles, with the weight high up, and horrible tele forks are an engineering anachronism,, but the general public are Very conservative & wary of change 😢😂😊
It makes a lot of sense. Single-seater racing cars (F1, Indy) all seat the driver low down.
I always wondered why we didn’t build bikes like this keep the center of gravity lower allowing us to really grind the tires off on the curves.
I STILL want to ride one! Though if I were to buy one, I'd definitely want more power. Something in the 110-140hp range with 65-80 lb-ft of torque. Either a crossplane twin or a triple.
Scooters, am I a joke to you? . Neat machine nevertheless, thanks for the vid, subscribed!
Haha, exactly
I love everything about this bike
Why did i immediately start hearing "low riideeer" in my head when this started playing?
It does look comfy. Probably great for all day rides.
Excellent video. Really I was searching a video like this for years, Alligator is a great motorbike!
That’s Akira position!😬
What a gem...
Needs a canopy and a Vyrus like front suspension
For someone who had to give bikes up because of a bad back ,this could be a gamechanger
Saw it long time ago in a motorcycle magazine , liked it but one thing that bothered me was the two shock absorber set -up that ruined the looks . Fast cornering gonna be scary where your ankle and calf come contact with the road surface .
I want an Alligator. The “sport” aspect of it doesn’t concern me. It just looks like it would be a very comfortable commuter.
5:12 First glance it looks rather uncomfortable a bit like sitting on the floor mat but you must lean forward streching forward to reach the bars so all your weight will hurt your boney butt smaller area instead of it spread out on your butt and legs taking the weight like on normal bikes. Also you can't use the backrest and your knees can touch your arms and your belly cramped between your legs and poor low height road visibility and the inferior long wheel base handling. Reminds me of the first cruiser I bought and I ground off the running board stubs the first week and realized that riding style and poor handling definitely wasn't suited for me, but each to their own.
Regardless I still would like to try one of these out for the rare experience, and possibly change my opinion.
It may look uncomfortable but its not. when just riding you can sit back and enjoy the ride. However if you are riding hard in the mountains you do tend to lean forward for better handling. The bike is actually designed for someone over 6 feet. I'm 6'2 and find the bike very very comfortable. My arms never touch my knees.
Cool design, i hope there's mitigations related to potential sudden brakes and engine temperatures towards the rider body
Never heard of that bike i bet it was a blast to ride
I would like to take one of these and put a thick plush seat on it. Even after doing that it still would be a really low seat. Then I would make a cruiser or possibly even a chopper-ish type of cruiser out of it.
Really makes sense to design a bike like this. Should handle really well. But wouldn't want to know what happens to the private parts in case of a collision 😅
Great video and a good tribute to Gurney's innovation. He laid the groundwork for feet forward bikes with the Alligator. I think the platform has even more potential and I'm aiming to take full advantage of it in my Akira Bike Project . Check out my fully functional high performance prototype build if you are interested in these kinds of bikes or what the future of motorcycling may have to offer!
I don't think he laid the foundations for F/ F m/cycles . A British designer , Roy Creasey ( I think ) built a fully enclosed bike with centre hub steering . This was in the mid seventies . It was called Quaser .
I don’t comment on UA-cam but bro, I’ve been on your website since I had a windows 95 pc as a school kid and now ride a 1st gen hayabusa. A question I always asked myself (since you’re not going the twin ceramic rotor… you know the rest) have you considered some variation of the ohlins hydraulic 2wd system? I think with a wheelbase at the length of yours, the handling would be A1
@@_S-t-a-r-z Thanks for following! yeah it's been a while since I was a kid in a basement lol. those early Hayabusa's are sweet. Yes I absolutely have some plans for 2WD / 2WS! I already have some hardware built for the system.
I swear I recall a motorcycle from the ‘80’s with that same seating position.🤔
Look 's like a modern ner-a-car, it is a really usefull invention!
haha that looks really clumsy to ride. Good luck keeping up with even the 600cc boys in the bends.
There should be kits for this bike accommodating specific engines. I would absolutely love one with 1300 Honda!
This is very cool.
Ah, Yes...Sometime back My Honda GB500(If You see one with a Suzuki Waterbuffalo 750 four-leading-shoe front brake amongst other mods, you'll know Me) was "helped" by HRC with the addition of an R500 flattrack top end. Dan, then in R&D on the Alligator, challenged Us in a Head-to-Head, which, sadly, did not take place, although I imagine We'd have gotten Our backsides spanked. Play On
The concept has been around since the 1920’s, with many far more innovative interpretations than this along the way
Finally a bike for Cotton Hill!
Somebody needs to show theses to a Chinese factory so we can all ride one😂
When a motorcycle has a one-night stand with a SCOOTER.... this is the offspring.
Totally Akira style
It’s a recumbent. ❤
it is
if it was fully faired it could set some speed records for its engine size
but compared to a cruiser bike with a drivers back rest, it doenst look any more comfortable - or to any touring bike
its not clear what problem this is trying to solve - for a bicycle its all about aerodynamics while still being able to pedal
also the handlebars are too far away - under seat steering would be better
one fatal flaw, in an accident there is no chance of being thrown clear, your chest will be crushed
@@kenwittlief255 Put the engine behind the rider, use a true laid back position. Smaller front wheel under the knees of the forward facing legs. You could even use under seat steering for ultimate comfort and view.
Clearly ahead of his time.