Thank you for this. Rake angle was a hot topic pre-2022. It was visibly obvious that Red Bull was far more angled than the others, but I couldn't understand what it did really and especially why is it the others weren't doing the same if it was so efficient. Now I know!
Conceptually mercedes were doing the same thing with the zero pod that red bull did with the high rake, produce extremely high df but with a narrow performance window. The low rake and long wheelbase concept produced downforce progressively but was easier to setup as opposed to the high rake and short wheelbase, and now the zero pod... at the very least they could admit to themselves that they got it wrong and pivot to a less peaky design.
Ground effects using rake angle was not invented by Adrian Newey. These were used in the Lotus 79 and were banned because they won everything. Ground effects have come back from 2022. Adrian Newey understood take angle and how ground effects work better than anyone else because he has been using partial ground effects in all his cars. The rake angle is the starting point of ground effects, and everything else adds to the force it produces.
I kind of doubt adrian invented the concept of high rake. I'm sure he's used it to greater success than anyone else, but unless he invented it in his williams days or earlier I think it was an existing concept he simply knew would work.
Hello Martin, I just bought your course on udemy and I thought that learning using CATIA would be better. For that reason I would like to know which version of CATIA do you use and where I can buy it. Thank you so much.
Hi, thank you very much! I am using Catia V5 in the course, but it’s more about learning the process of designing complex aerodynamic parts. So you can use different design software to follow the course as well.
Towards the end of 2021 Mercedes were running high rake, but they were able to drop the rear under load. They had a massive straight line speed advantage to Red Bull despite running a similar rake at low speeds. I'm still wondering how they managed to make that work so good.
@@seanvanderburg7883 Yeah, they made a damping trick. Most teams could do it to some extent but Mercedes were able to so much better than anyone else. In such a way, that the car would be low rake on high speed, high rake on low speed. I think it was like some kinda diffuser stall or however they called it.
No because the cars badicly have it now internalised its the basic principe of airplane wings and indeed ground effect cars what swastika once done with suspension geometry is now done by the chassis
Don't be surprised if RedBull bring back high rake in the RB20 2024 car so that they can increase the depth of the underfloor we saw at Monaco (Perez car) and significantly lower the upper aero elements of front and rear wings by increasing ground effect area. That would be the logical step for the top teams like Mercedes, Ferrari, Aston Martin. because what RedBull had done with the underfloor is not only technical and expensive to do or replicate, teams are realising that if you can maximise the low pressure sealing and run a low upper aero elements seen in races like Monza then the upper aero development becomes less important. We may even see introduction of bigger sidepod to help generate more download with the low pressure environment. Teams simply need to find ways to maximise airflow going under the car because instead of over it.
It only "came into its own" bcos merc didn't develop the w12 though
Рік тому
It worked before too but RB had weak Renault engine. They were won/ contenders at Hungary, Brazil, Mexico, Monaco, Singapore... "downforce" ("& tight turn") tracks
@ they didn’t have weak engines in 2019 and 2020. In those years they also had a lot of aero issues and rear instability. They have to continually change front wing upgrades because they weren’t getting the results they expected in 2019z
They have a large period of Research to determine if higher X benefits more than Higher Y or whatever, Rake vs CoG height, Downforce vs Ride Height, etc. Remember F1 cars are just big compromises anyway. They could push the engine forward so that they could pack heavier elements towards (I.e. batteries) the rear while keeping the body tight. Also the use of pull rod suspension on the rear helps lower the CoG and the engine cover in other to get cleaner flow to the beam wing, that should suck air from the diffuser.
@@damncriticsMechanical is really only for slow corners when the air doesn't help too much. most tracks have less slow corners, and I think that's why they prefer Aero-downforce instead.
The biggest trick is tricking teams that high rake is a winning solution. 5 constructor's championships later 2017 - 2021 and Mercedes is still laughing.
@@groundedgaming You can sacrifice other downforce parts due to the higher overall downforce. It's evident that Red Bull run with a lower rear wing most of the time because they get their downforce from somewhere else and thus reduce rear wing area to compensate.
@@martij30 Then the level of downforce RB could trade for top speed is less because a greater component of it is built into the design. They were weaker at high speed circuits
And all high rake cars have been beaten accordingly for 8 years in a row from low rake car to extend that FIA changed drastically the rules to suit high rake cars. That was fair and square of course. 🤡
Great explanation. Very simple and to the point.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for this. Rake angle was a hot topic pre-2022. It was visibly obvious that Red Bull was far more angled than the others, but I couldn't understand what it did really and especially why is it the others weren't doing the same if it was so efficient. Now I know!
Love your content, lots of F1/ racing fans starving for this kind of stuff
Can you make a video how the double blow diffuser works?
Conceptually mercedes were doing the same thing with the zero pod that red bull did with the high rake, produce extremely high df but with a narrow performance window.
The low rake and long wheelbase concept produced downforce progressively but was easier to setup as opposed to the high rake and short wheelbase, and now the zero pod... at the very least they could admit to themselves that they got it wrong and pivot to a less peaky design.
Great video! I love the little details more than big concepts
I never knew that about the rear wishbones, thanks for the insight!!! 😮😮 very nice video
Will we have something on the use of the anti-dive front suspension as well as how the above for the rear suspension helps to stall airflow ?
I guess RB were well prepared for the recent rule changes. 👍
Ground effects using rake angle was not invented by Adrian Newey. These were used in the Lotus 79 and were banned because they won everything. Ground effects have come back from 2022. Adrian Newey understood take angle and how ground effects work better than anyone else because he has been using partial ground effects in all his cars. The rake angle is the starting point of ground effects, and everything else adds to the force it produces.
A small detail: I believe that the suspension elements had to be symmetrical, which didn't help the matter.
I kind of doubt adrian invented the concept of high rake. I'm sure he's used it to greater success than anyone else, but unless he invented it in his williams days or earlier I think it was an existing concept he simply knew would work.
Best youtuber
Hello Martin,
I just bought your course on udemy and I thought that learning using CATIA would be better. For that reason I would like to know which version of CATIA do you use and where I can buy it.
Thank you so much.
Hi, thank you very much!
I am using Catia V5 in the course, but it’s more about learning the process of designing complex aerodynamic parts. So you can use different design software to follow the course as well.
@@BSport320 Thanks
so do you think that fusion 360 is good to start learning CAD?
What about low rake that made merc so fast?
It's a different concept and uses the smaller gap to the ground for higher flow velocities.
Towards the end of 2021 Mercedes were running high rake, but they were able to drop the rear under load. They had a massive straight line speed advantage to Red Bull despite running a similar rake at low speeds. I'm still wondering how they managed to make that work so good.
@@seanvanderburg7883 they had to crank the rake as their overall floor area got cut by the regs. otherwise the would not have changed.
@@Sr68720 Regs which actually slowed Mercedes by 1.330s, over twice as much as it did Red Bull (-0.643s) and allowed Red Bull into the title fight
@@seanvanderburg7883 Yeah, they made a damping trick. Most teams could do it to some extent but Mercedes were able to so much better than anyone else. In such a way, that the car would be low rake on high speed, high rake on low speed. I think it was like some kinda diffuser stall or however they called it.
is rake still used in new cars 2022-23 ? would it still be useful to design the car around it ?
No because the cars badicly have it now internalised its the basic principe of airplane wings and indeed ground effect cars what swastika once done with suspension geometry is now done by the chassis
Last year teams tried to get rid of bouncing and this year they try to drive lower without bouncing
Thank you all for replies.
Peugeot 9X8 hypercar designers: Write that down, write that down!
Don't be surprised if RedBull bring back high rake in the RB20 2024 car so that they can increase the depth of the underfloor we saw at Monaco (Perez car) and significantly lower the upper aero elements of front and rear wings by increasing ground effect area.
That would be the logical step for the top teams like Mercedes, Ferrari, Aston Martin. because what RedBull had done with the underfloor is not only technical and expensive to do or replicate, teams are realising that if you can maximise the low pressure sealing and run a low upper aero elements seen in races like Monza then the upper aero development becomes less important. We may even see introduction of bigger sidepod to help generate more download with the low pressure environment.
Teams simply need to find ways to maximise airflow going under the car because instead of over it.
it was so tricky to get right that it really only came into its own in 2021, and with only max verstappen able to fully extract it. crazy
It worked really well with his driving style and his desire for a super positive front end
It only "came into its own" bcos merc didn't develop the w12 though
It worked before too but RB had weak Renault engine. They were won/ contenders at Hungary, Brazil, Mexico, Monaco, Singapore... "downforce" ("& tight turn") tracks
@ they didn’t have weak engines in 2019 and 2020. In those years they also had a lot of aero issues and rear instability. They have to continually change front wing upgrades because they weren’t getting the results they expected in 2019z
OK but how can I make this work on my 1990 Volvo :)
Stance it, obviously.
Make flat floor :D
@@Pak_PakoBbl4flatten the under floor and install a giant diffuser
Wouldnt high rake also affects the mechanical grip of the car as well?
I suppose more weight is exerted on the front wheels than before
They optimize it of course. Proof is in the pudding
They have a large period of Research to determine if higher X benefits more than Higher Y or whatever, Rake vs CoG height, Downforce vs Ride Height, etc. Remember F1 cars are just big compromises anyway. They could push the engine forward so that they could pack heavier elements towards (I.e. batteries) the rear while keeping the body tight. Also the use of pull rod suspension on the rear helps lower the CoG and the engine cover in other to get cleaner flow to the beam wing, that should suck air from the diffuser.
Mechanical grip is always heavily compromised in F1 in favour of downforce.
@@damncriticsMechanical is really only for slow corners when the air doesn't help too much. most tracks have less slow corners, and I think that's why they prefer Aero-downforce instead.
If the chassis centre of gravity is unchanged, then the rake will move very little weight forward, and the balance will be mostly the same as before
I would not be surprised if redbull slowly add rake. They seem to be working hard to seal the floor
That sounds like active aero and suspension mounted aero. Wasn't that supposed to be illegal?
It's the most dominant F1 car in F1 history but also the most controversial because of the cost cap Scandal cheating
The biggest trick is tricking teams that high rake is a winning solution. 5 constructor's championships later 2017 - 2021 and Mercedes is still laughing.
No mention of the higher drag? Strange
In theory the downforce created by the floor is more eficient, so you can make the same downforce with less drag.
@@mullayho1759yes, but there would be more frontal area, so more drag?
@@groundedgaming You can sacrifice other downforce parts due to the higher overall downforce. It's evident that Red Bull run with a lower rear wing most of the time because they get their downforce from somewhere else and thus reduce rear wing area to compensate.
@@mullayho1759 You raise the angle of attack of the wings with higher rake and also bigger frontal area
@@martij30 Then the level of downforce RB could trade for top speed is less because a greater component of it is built into the design. They were weaker at high speed circuits
And all high rake cars have been beaten accordingly for 8 years in a row from low rake car to extend that FIA changed drastically the rules to suit high rake cars. That was fair and square of course. 🤡
First