Aspen Baker: A better way to talk about abortion
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2015
- Abortion is extremely common. In America, for example, one in three women will have an abortion in their lifetime, yet the strong emotions sparked by the topic - and the highly politicized rhetoric around it - leave little room for thoughtful, open debate. In this personal, thoughtful talk, Aspen Baker makes the case for being neither “pro-life” nor “pro-choice” but rather "pro-voice" - and for the roles that listening and storytelling can play when it comes to discussing difficult topics.
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"Empathy is created the moment we imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes. It doesn't mean we all have to end up in the same place." Loved when she made this important distinction
True, some end up in a dumpster.
The Yellow Tub LOL so true. Greatest response to idealistic nihilism I've ever read.
This is actually a really weak argument made by her. You can feel empathy towards someone however still understand that their choice is an immoral one. Empathy isn't the sole voice on if something is moral or immoral. That's the whole premise of a vigilante. Yes we can sympathize with them. No it is not moral to become judge, jury, and executioner, just because something traumatic happened to you.
Tyler No +1 check out Paul Bloom’s Against Empathy
Tyler, moral behavior is that which is deliberate and has a positive effect on the well-being of another sentient being. In regards to abortion; a first trimester abortion is not a moral consideration since no one yet exists to harm. Keep in mind that an organism must be sentient to possess any moral consideration. Even second and third trimester abortions are not within cultural moral concerns since the organism resides within the body of a sentient host entity. The host entity must retain bodily autonomy rights, always.
Everyone is indeed talking about the wrong thing. We should be discussing how to prevent unplanned pregnancies.
AGREED
Some women who want the child have to get abortions to save their own lives. Are you just going to not talk about that?
Absolutely!
@@earnthis1 - That is more difficult to prevent beforehand. And she didn't claim to be against abortions.
Yeah, this is why I don’t get why the pro life movement isn’t for better methods of contraception
Facts are more important than feelings. As a child I felt like there were monsters under my bed. I could have started a support group where children could just talk and empathize with each others’ feelings. But instead I looked under my bed and determined the facts of the situation first. There were no monsters under my bed. Facts matter in the abortion discussion and feelings can change when a person knows the facts - just like my feelings of anxiety changed to a sense of calmness after I looked under my bed. As nice as it sounds, this popular idea of just affirming everyone’s’ feelings is actually, in the long run, destructive and harmful.
If it could be shown that most people connect first with the emotions of a story and then with the facts, would this change your mind that affirming feelings is harmful and destructive?
@@questioneveryclaim1159 I think most people connect with the feelings of a story and often don’t bother confirming the facts. Telling people emotion laden stories is manipulation and propaganda when the facts are secondary.
I interpreted the program as a means to listen, not necessarily affirm or agree with. Like she said about the non-Christian listening to Christian women. Sometimes, people just need to share how they feel, no matter how irrational or separate from the facts, without being judged. People become irrational because they are afraid, and sometimes fear is not so easily dismissed by simply 'looking under the bed' or looking at facts. A lot of times, fear can be released when we don't feel like we have to hide it or change it, we can just simply open up about it. Then it's like removing a big weight which leaves us with more of a capacity to think clearly and critically about things.
I think both of you are correct. Facts are crucial but they don’t necessarily alleviate the feelings & the feelings can be very valid. The thing causing the anxiety can be a very rational concern not just based on imaginary creatures out to get us. We should empathize w/the feelings but can definitely disagree w/how to proceed. The action taken can actually cause more damage & the underling causes of the fear never resolved.
Yo can always get pregnant again but u can never take it back once it’s too late
This talk is really more about being a good listener than it is about abortion.
***** very well said.
***** Yeah. There really wasn't anything about actual abortion or the discussion of it. Quite disappointing.
***** I call Bullshit, if that were the case it would have been titled as such, the title if you had not noticed was, "A better way to talk about abortion".
***** Tell me, what did you expect when clicking on the video?
Based on what TED used to be, it hinted that his would be a talk which doesn't focus on the beaten horse of whether abortion is murder or not, but elevates the discussion to the next level. With stats, graphs, deep philosophical questions and stories about how various legal measures by various countries lead to different outcomes.
My disappointment, and I didn't even feel like voting this down, really, is that this talk could have just as easily been about any traumatic experience any person could have to deal with. It could've been a suicide helpline, it could've been about school bullying, it could've been about listening to people who have lost a loved one. It's just very misleading.
***** I'm not sure we should judge the speaker for that. TED has a long history of mangling the names of presentations. This very well could have had a logical name, and the person who posted the video might have messed it up.
People on reddit attacked and harassed me calling me worthless, evil, vile, told me I wanted people to suffer and that they hope I get what I “deserve”. Why? Because I asked someone if they were pro-life “as well”.
I am prolife too. Dont let them shame you.
That's really sad! I'm very much pro-choice but everyone has a right to have their own personal opinion (as long as it doesn't affect someone's life) And they shouldn't have disrespected you like that!❤
Abortion is a very complex issue that needs perspective from all sides. Hopefully this event does not discourage you from joining in on the conversation
Nothing makes a baby killer gnash their teeth harder than when confronted with another person who thinks it's a bad idea to kill babies.
People are very angry, and rightly so. Because taking bodily autonomy away is a slippery slope. Judge Thomas says he is moving on to the right to birth control and gay rights. Religious people may rejoice until we turn into the middle east and our right to vote, drive and just existing starts to get stripped. Nothing else can describe this but pure evil
Pretty sad that this video is getting so many dislikes. Lame.
Why is it sad? Why is it lame?
Rick Wolford This video should not exist in the first place.
TheSpaceTiger
This is why we can't have nice things.
And I'm not advocating for censorship, unlike you people, I'm just saying that it is stupid and pointless, which it is.
***** I'm sure nazi's said that as they burned all books they deemed pointless or harmful
TheSpaceTiger
Ok there Godwin, nice try.
this video is about talking to each other and listening. not about abortion.
"Safe, Legal, and RARE"???
I'm inclined to think that a service would become even rarer if that service was dangerous and illegal.
Remember fully informed decision? Lol, I guess too much real information made that untenable.
Why should it be rare if they believe that the baby is not a human being...
@@mikebalderston2723 - You'd think so, but for various reasons a lot of women and YOUNG GIRLS are seeking abortion for desperate reasons.
Merete Mitfuldenavn Sorry, but that’s not true😂 You can look up the statistics and almost every abortion is just out of inconvenience. It’s actually fairly rare that abortions are for desperate reasons
With open conversation can come truth. I hope that more people speak civilly and respectfully about differences and difficult topics, if nothing else. We are still human beings. I am glad this organization exists for this reason.
The video isn't about women or the issue of abortion exclusively. Clearly many people didn't watch the entire video or you refused to understand the complexity of the situation.
Instead, as Baker states, it is "pro-voice". She seeks to tell "real stories of real people" of all human issues, like poverty and immigration, on a spectrum. Like the catholic who gets the abortion and the atheist who regrets her abortion. Or perhaps the Hispanic who is against the legalization of undocumented immigrants. She wants to tell us how complex human experiences are and to create a society of empathy that understands its own citizens. Is that too hard for all of us to understand?
Anhvinh Doanvo I know right! Abortion wrong or not is very personal and a person should not be judged because of it.
@@adamb2964, if it's wrong people should be judged about it
Euphemisms are the tool of the prevaricator.
@@cperez1000 "If"? First trimester abortion may, in fact, be the best and "right" decision for someone. Every woman must continue to be allowed to make that decision. Otherwise women become not only subordinate featured players in a male dominated world but reduced to lesser than nascent, non-viable humans. That's lunacy. Why people want government control over pregnant women's bodies can only be attributed to mindless religious obedience.
@@mondobear22, it seems to me that you have certain preconceptions about pro lifers, due that many are religious people, but you can fall easily into fallacious arguments, in which you think something is false just based on where it comes from, or two, assume that all people making an argument are religious people. I'm not religious, there are plenty of secular arguments against abortion (you can look up prolife atheists on the web). The idea is not to subjugate woman, is to avoid arbitrarily defining human life, as dehumanizing human life is the excuse used throughout history to justify the slavery and genocide. In China aborting female babies (even after birth) became common place and male population became larger. In cases when women can choose not to get pregnant, the same way a man can choose not to get a woman pregnant, and if a man should take responsibility of the future baby, so should the woman, but tou basically put human life below women's right to choose, and that's the actual subjugation.
Its a misleading title, and despite denying it is pro choice, ends up being pro choice.
You missed the point. It's not about choosing or not. It's about advancing the dialogue.
Screaming 'baby murderer!' changes no one and nothing.
The point of the gentleman above is that the lady does not remove her pro-choice bias from the monologue, but she frames the monologue within the confines of the pro-choice fundamentals; yes, she is civilized, she encourages people to have a dialogue (which is a positive step) but it is disingenuous to come and claim you are pro-voice when you still assert the moral subjectivity of the decision to keep a baby or abort it. Just be upfront and say that I am pro-choice and I want to have a dialogue with pro-lifers so that we can find as much common-ground as possible
@@NihilSineDeo09 if you watch the vid, that was the point.
If everyone is screaming and emotional, no dialogue happens.
@@antediluvianatheist5262 -How long does it take for dialogue to happen?
The science has been out for decades that a human being is it's own complete person at conception. Many people have calmly brought this to the attention of the world.
The problem is the far left idealogies that prefer feelings over facts. They want to live in a fantasy world instead of this reality.
you mean pro dead babies of course.
Listen carefully. If you don't want to watch the video, don't watch it. Don't just come here to dislike and leave hate.
Welcome to the Internet :)
skrewheadsailor haha, yes but still. the dislike bar is the same size as the like bar. I understand people don't like heaps of social issues on TED, but if you dot like it, don't watch it
It's OK to watch something you disagree with - it's part of free speech. The alternative is an echo-chamber.
Sounds like RELATIVISM. Just because something is common doesn’t make it right.
Exactly!! some years ago it was common between american rich business man's to own slaves.... so it was a good thing?
Relativism is killing common sense these days!
Maria Baysa,
Before you critcise any of the speakers chosen to give talks on TedEx, TED, or any of the other intellectual and scientific think tanks, look up the speaker's credentials. Most of these speakers are highly educated, experienced, and intelligent people who bring unique perspectives to our world. To flippantly dismiss a speaker as obviously intellectual, intelligent, and educated as Aspen Baker simply out of personal disagreement is to do one's self a disservice.
What Aspen Baker suggests is not relativism. Aspen Baker suggests in this talk that people can get together to discuss abortion and other very complex moral topics without going to war with each other. What is happening over abortion, gun control, and other complex issues is nothing short of the beginnings of a civil war. Democrats want to ban guns. Republicans want to ban abortion. Each side is convinced that they are right in their desire for a 100% ban of the other side's rights. In the end, we will end up with a series of ever tighter bans on our inalienable rights with large numbers of people initially satisfied with their pet bans. After a while, we will discover that it is much easier to pass bans than it is to remove bans. At that point we will realize that we have given up many of our basic rights to infringement by pressure groups which never had a right to pass the bans to begin with. Think carefully before you agree to sell out the rights of others because others will also feel free to sell out those rights which you hold precious.
@@AMERICANPATRIOT1945 discussions without a common moral standard are useless.
the major problem is the difference between the moral standards... a side believes that every human life has value (starting from the conception) the other side say that a life doesn't have value... because it's not wanted.
@@racer2heaven ,
How sure are you that this is the case with Aspen Baker, or for that matter any other woman who believes in the sanctity of her body? Are you aware that a lot of the people who are pro-choice, especially women, take such a stance not because they don't value life, but because they see that about 80% of the anti-choice side comes from religion. Those people correctly see a mostly white male religious leadership with the arrogant nerve to believe that they alone have the right to set moral standards for women of all races, colors, and nationalities in regards to the reproductive plumbing of those women. Those women don't want their reproductive rights to be decided by men.
Aspen Baker and others like her correctly see that there is a large middle ground where abortion is not an absolute right. One does not just have the right to kill a viable fetus two days before birth. On the other hand, one does not have the right to force a woman to bring a 1 day zygote through all 9 months of pregnancy. The transition from zygote to baby occurs over nine months and is a gradual change. At a certain point, the fetus becomes viable and attains the right through actual or implied consent to inhabit the mother's womb and to continue to draw its sustenance from the mother until birth. Scientists have determined that this point is reached at the point at which the fetus becomes viable, conscious, sentient, and capable of feeling pain. These conditions are met at around 28 weeks of gestation. Secular legal scholars set the bar for viability and implied consent at around 24 weeks just to give the benefit of the doubt to the fetus and to err on the side of saving life.
Religious groups don't feel this way because they are taught by religious leaders and not scientists. Those who feel that a woman should be allowed to kill an 8.8 month fetus are also immoral to say the least, and they are exceedingly rare. Even so called laws in some states which say that a woman can kill an 8.8 month fetus are not in fact stating that at all. Such laws are merely stating that a woman cannot be compelled to kill herself to deliver a baby and that the mother comes first. That is in fact morally correct. No healthcare provider will kill a baby which is about to be delivered unless absolutely necessary to save the mother. If the mother's life is in danger, labor will be induced and the baby will be delivered a little early and saved if at all possible.
This is the type of dialogue which Aspen Baker refers to in her lecture on TED. It is absolutely possible for two sides of a debate to reach common ground on even the toughest moral issues. That is called democracy. Religious and political extremists should learn to understand this or at least acknowledge that their beliefs as pushed by the leaders of their movements are not absolute and can in fact be compromised to balance rights against rights. That is what separates our great US republic from lesser forms of government.
@@AMERICANPATRIOT1945 If people's credentials were the basis of right and wrong, thief and murder would be legal by now.
A society that refuses to recognize one absolute TRUTH will never work, no matter how nicely or calmly we try to discuss issues. (sidenote: have you ever noticed that aggression only comes from one side? have you watched BOTH pro-life and pro-choice rallies?)
Absolute Truth exists and we are all accountable to it. Murder is wrong and will never ever be justified - no matter what circumstance one faces. It will always be wrong. Truth will remain TRUE even if people stops believing it to be true.
I agree, we have to "think carefully before you agree to sell out the rights of others because others will also feel free to sell out those rights which you hold precious." And what right could be more precious than the RIGHT TO LIFE?
Slavery was also Common, did that make it right or moral?
That's always been leftist logic no wonder they were the ones to enforce slavery and Jim crow laws
Slavery was not common... Only a small portion of people owned slaves. Calm down, there are better arguments against Abortion.
Slavery violates a person’s right to bodily autonomy and agency, much like forced pregnancy
Forced pregnancy would be rape. That's a tiny percentage of pregnancies. Being expected to provide the basic needs to your child, (which was created and made dependent by your own choices) which is what pregnancy does, is not "slavery." Legally declaring that another human is a "non-person," so you can abuse, exploit or kill them for your own convenience or profit? That's slavery. It's also the ideology of abortion.
ydely Suarez nope
_This_ is bravery.
_This_ is truth.
And it is monumentally sad how many people are against it. I knew it before I even saw the amount of dislikes this video has so far. This and so many other issues aren't something that can be sorted with blanket policies and campaigns to control and restrict. As she stated, these are *human* issues. And humans are widely varied and rarely exacting in situation or reason. People looking to control or even look down on women in need of abortions for any reason do nothing but hurt others for the sake of their own fears, agenda, and gains. I adore this woman for this lecture and I will proudly share it. Not because I evilly salivate at the thought of abortion, but because I firmly believe that everybody has the right to decide what happens in their life, even if it's something I don't understand or even care for.
Even though I'm not sure if I would have an abortion, Im pro-choice. I've met a few women who had an abortion for various reasons including their life being in danger or the baby being unable to survive outside of the womb. Abortion is not an easy decision and it's so frustrating that many (not all) anti-choice people think people are only using abortion as a form of birth control.
That is not even a key argument against abortion
Sacrificing the life of the baby for the sake of the mother's is still pro-life because you are saving the life of the mom. All other situations are not. Just wanted to make this clarification.
Yep. That's how rights work. When you give rights, you give people the right to make choices that you don't like.
Same as freedom of speech.
You have the right attitude. Take it seriously. Make the best choice for your situation.
And don't tell everyone else what they are, or are not allowed to do with their bodies.
@swimgirl24 Girl I am with you. I am pro choice
Rights in our society are not without limits, except probably the right to think and have an opinion.
Your right to do whatever you want with your body stops the moment when you are hurting someone. For instance, I have the right to swing my arms in the air like a madman who yells there is no dog...no problems here. But if during my arm-swinging I land a punch on you just because you happened to be in my space, that's a problem and I should be held liable. Similarly, I have nothing against adult women doing anything to their own bodies (tattoos, mutilation, hormone treatment, etc) as long as they do not harm/kill a human being, regardless of where that human is on the life continuum.
You could have replaced the word abortion with any other word, and the conversation would have been the same. She was awesome! Abortion is sad though, always will be.
Do you mean replacing it with killing?
@@jrdelamancha9360 That is a good question.
And wrong. Will always be wrong.
I wish to understand why the majority of the thumbs on this video are down. While she did mention "oppression" it wasn't the main theme of the video. While she mentioned abortion it wasn't the main theme of the video (though I think many people just got on to downvote without watching; it seems likely).
It was about listening to (and telling of) other stories on politicized issues, It wasn't about shutting up and listening, as feminists want people to do.
It seemed somewhat clear to me that this person wasn't intending to push any ideology, but to say "politics is a horrible, innately censoring, machine that divides people on a fundamental level" (ok, that could be an ideology, but still). But, then again, it could just be confirmation bias, and me truly wishing to see the best in people...which is why I am asking why it's not liked. What did I blind myself to?
SangoProductions21 I'm guessing most thumbs down are from people who just considered this talk babble. Garbage like this is usually reserved for TEDx but TEDwomen seems to have the same level of competence. This talk is not what most people subscribe to this channel for, it's mostly complaining and the entire message of the video can be summed up with "I want more people to talk about things that I want them to talk about". The delivery is poor, it's all over the place with topics and the reason I didn't thumb it down is because it's just bad and at least not outright lying like some other feminist presentations tend to be.
SangoProductions21 I believe from my understanding of what she was talking about, which was very vague was relativity. She is advocating relativity and relativity's main purpose it to break boundaries and bias into a gray confusion. She wan't us to be more accepting for people and their choices and situations on a moral level. But morals of what is right or wrong is what makes us human. Pro-voice shouldn't create respect for all (contrary to her ending), maybe support. I advocate that we should indeed be finding new lines to create and greater understanding of what is good. Disagreement, Hate, Disrespect, Dishonor, Shame, Regret are not negative parts of society that need to be treated. They are beneficial parts of society that help the human race to grow in a hostile environment of ideologies.
shadowx089 Not being willing to include and manage complexity is willful ignorance.
Aaron565pwns you didn't even read my comment, let alone watch the video.
Not sure why you commented.
@the others, thanks for the comments. I think I have a better picture of why people downvoted, even if I don't necessarily agree with them.
Basically, i think most of them were triggered by abortion, and the second they discovered she was not pro-forced-birth.
And literally, they could not think past that.
In 1915, my grandmother was having trouble with her pregnancy, the local doctors encouraged her to abort the baby, for her own survival, but she refused to kill her soon to be born child. She was in an area where illegal, but "safe" abortions were performed. She told the doctors that "God could not forgive her for killing her baby, and she could not forgive herself." She felt the love she had for her child in her womb. She went on to give birth her third child in January of 1916. The baby was premature, but survived. My grandmother sadly died one month after giving birth. That child grew up to marry and had two children of which I am the oldest. I am married and my wife and I have two sons. Both are married and one has a son. So, three generations later, my family is thriving thanks to the courage and strong faith that my grandmother had.
My grandmother made a decision based on her bonding with her child, faith and the risks at the time, to keep her baby to term and risk her life in the process. My family is forever grateful to her for that.
Now, if a woman chooses to terminate her pregnancy, and kill her baby, that's her option, but my faith tells me to thank God every day that I can live this life thanks to the faith and love of my grandmother.
If a woman decides to terminate their pregnancy for no good reason, she will have to answer to God for eternity.
How I wish that my monster mother should aborted me while I was a baby, she would be having less sin in aborted me as a baby than let me suffering in this world with her cause. She was the cause of my great suffering. Those kids aborted were much much luckier than me.
Counseling and support for women in difficult circumstances is something anyone with a brain supports.
But it doesn't make the core issue go away. What justifies the deliberate killing of an innocent human being? That's the only question that matters in the end. The work of death isn't suspended because we increase our understanding of peoples' motives and problems.
You ever read the story of Jane. It's a good read regardless of weather you are pro choice or life
It's the one thing most pro life people don't even consider ✌️
Talk about brains? You’re the one who calls two cells joined together an innocent human being. Not two cells, not an embryo. Not a mass of cells that couldn’t possibly survive on their own.
The fact that anti abortion proponents don’t support contraception, don’t want to pay for it, or even make it readily available, reveals the true concern of these groups. There would be no need for abortion, no longer a need to promote your so called pro life agenda. You could achieve all your goals with the active promotion of contraception. Why wouldn’t you want to stop abortions so easily? Because you don’t want to stop it. You only want to promote your feel good, holier than though nonsense. You’re more concerned with preserving your self perceived morality and superiority. It gives you something to do.
@@IcelanderUSer First, it's not just I who call two cells a human being. Science does that. Whether a human being can survive on their own or not is irrelevant. Killing helpless people is horrific.
Second, if all conservatives enthusiastically supported contraception and secured taxpayer funding such that any and all contraceptives were free and widely available, would you abandon your support for abortion? Or is this just a diversion from the point?
@@Atreus21 Killing mentally unfit people who pose great bodily harm to others without consent, is caused justified homicide and it is not horrific, it is moral and well defined. I knew a down syndrome rapist, as well as a rock climber who fell onto another pair and needed to be cut free. Both cases the person was totally innocent, "helpless" even, in the later case. Both cases justified homicide was legal and moral. It's your lack of education in the definitions of your own rights that makes you feel entitled to tell women they must be denied their equal rights. You don't even know your own.
You nailed it!
Excellent. I believe there are too many personal ideas and actions that are open only to judgement instead of actually hearing how even one person is affected. Great job. Thank you.
Sad that so many disliked this video before listening to it. That much is obvious.
***** I saw a bumper sticker today that said "Abortion is not healthcare." I just shook my head in disgust. What ignorance it takes to actually believe that quote.
***** Ignorance is the killer of open debate, growth and peace (including happiness) - I also shrug when people even say "I'm not going to talk about that..." - whatever that (taboo) subject is that infuriates them so much they cannot have an open discussion about the human aspects...
***** The bumper sticker is making a generalization, it's wrong since obviously some abortions are done for medical reasons. On the other hand most are not done for medical (or "healthcare") but rather for the convenience of the mother.
utpawn Sorry no its never just for "convenience" its for the entire welfare of the woman in every aspect of her life.
*****
"Never just for convenience"?
Anyone who is perfectly capable of a healthy pregnancy and birth and gets an abortion simply because they don't want to deal with the responsibilities of pregnancy and/or raising a child, is doing so out of convenience.
I realize that's an insensitive way of putting it and ignores the emotional factors associated with getting an abortion. If you look at the basic picture though, it comes down to being a convenience rather than healthcare.
There's a reason a lot of healthcare plans, such as medicaid (in most states), do not cover abortions in cases where there is no danger to the mother's life and no rape. It's because it's not "healthcare".
The two sides are vastly different; you can't just say any side is just as good as the other
The problem is, one side is killing people.
@@poliincredible770 exactly.
@@poliincredible770 Yes, forcing women to have babies and die during childbirth is killing women. Why do you support killing women?
Joseph Davidson there are also many women who die during uborshuns. Let’s save their lives and their babies.
@@earnthis1 Those cases are rare, and most pro-lifers would favour the mothers life in that case.
I support women's right to speak and be heard,
no matter what side,
an as much as possible, they should receive the support they need
to make a decision based on reason and on love
rather than fear of other people's anger.
Well that's the first time I got called a "cucksimp". Normally it's "lying, cheating playboy fuckhead". Care to expand on that?
+Perturbed Connoisseur I think... I don't have any imaginary friends, so... that would make them... part of your imagination and... if they're too loud... I'm not the one who's hearing them.
I'm sorry. I'd defend my self or apologise. In your case, I can't even work out what your point is at all.
I don't know if you're pro-choice, pro-life or replying to someone else's post on a whole other board.
"make decision based on reason and on love"...not much medical reasoning involved in an abortion, and definitely there is no love for the aborted baby
I'm on the baby side
Well, killing someone outside of the womb is illegal, ruthlessly slaughtering someone inside of a wombs should also be illegal.
You are free to choose but you aren’t free from the consequences of your choice.
💯
Pro-voice: A better way to talk about any subject.
As long as you aren't the sheep, in a three way conversation, with two wolves..
@@harpjason208 Pro Life is a Give Birth or Die movement.
Its PRO LIFE not PRO DEATH...
The most important thing I got out of this talk was how important it is to approach talking about abortion with empathy and respect. Abortion is such a sensitive topic that it can be difficult to talk about in a constructive way. People have a variety of beliefs and experiences that shape their views on the topic, and it is important to recognize and acknowledge these differences. I thoroughly enjoyed how Aspen talked about how the language we use can either make it easier or more difficult to discuss the topic depending on how much practice we have saying uncomfortable words. I’d also like to mention how it is important to avoid using language that is dismissive or judgmental of those who hold different views, as this can cause further division and hinder productive conversation.
It can be easy to focus on the act of an abortion and the morality tied to it, but conversations around abortion are more productive when they focus on vital background information. The reasons why people seek abortions, and the health outcomes of different abortion procedures can help to provide a more nuanced understanding of the issue. Starting from neutral ground and with the goal of coming to an understanding with others starts by being open to learning from others and acknowledging the validity of their experiences and beliefs, even if they differ from your own.
The ethical principles of beneficence, non-maleficence, and autonomy are very closely related to the topic of abortion. No matter what we feel about the morality of abortions, we have to remember that both patients and doctors have the right to autonomy. If a doctor doesn’t want to perform an abortion, that is their right. However, I feel that beneficence, non-maleficence, and respect for patient autonomy would require that even if a physician refuses to offer an abortion as part of their healthcare services, they should be willing to refer their patients to other physicians who would be willing to help them.
Pro Voice is ableist against mute people.
The Yellow Tub It's not against anyone. It's simply a limited resource; as all resources are: limited.
Earth Worm?
Not particularly surprised you can't figure it out.
Earth Worm I don't think you understood my comment.
***** Facepalm
I think some Ted viewers here are tired of hearing about social issues. I do think they care about social issues, but the people here have probably not subscribed for this content.
I am sure these kind of talks would be liked more, if they were less common. At least I hope so.
Karlo Schallibaum And some , like myself, have subscribed only for this kind of content. So i hope they make more and more of these.
When one side is losing an argument they introduce nuance to the point of absurdity
Prolifers, on the other hand, quote scripture like dumb assholes
@@MrCheenibum64 There's plenty of pro life atheists bud. A person's religious affiliation or lack thereof honestly shouldn't matter. Is what they're saying honest. Most pro lifers I see on the internet that debate pro abortionists use science to back their claims while pro abortionists use improper scientific analogies and out right lies and emotional appeal to convince others they are right.
Jules Windu lets get real most pro lifers are Christian or religious
@@saltyfrenchfry1025 so?
I was a little apprehensive about watching this video because it is such a taboo topic and I thought it would make me feel uncomfortable listening to this but I really enjoyed this talk and how she was felt about abortion and how other women feel about it. Very accurate of her to say - regarding this topic- many people are heavily influenced by their upbringing and beliefs and it was very eye and ear opening for me.
If something is common it doesn't make it right.
like your anti women stance?
@@earnthis1 anti woman? That's the best you could come up with? For your information I'm not "anti woman." I'm anti ripping babies apart in the womb.
@@dominictumms6301 yeah, it's astonishing how so many pro-choicers don't have a clue about any pro-life arguments. Not to mention the fact that most of the prominent pro-lifers are women.
Joseph Davidson I guess the pro-life women are anti-women as well, huh? 😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@earnthis1 and i suppose you are fine with having millions of young women murdered? You are a true champion of the women
I am a Conservative republican and pro abortion
while i am a pretty conservative and
reserved republican, but i I do believe Abortion has its place, if i mother
does not want a child, forcing her to have it often leads to abuse and or
neglect as she resents the child, but abortion should be done early, not in the
final trimester. And these kids who are severely disabled, they should be
aborted if possible as the quality of life, to force them into a life of
struggle and suffering is far cruller then abortion, and the strain and stress
it does in fact put on parents and other relatives, yes is a fact ! The
struggles and depression the disabled child often has especially once they are
adults and are no longer little and cute, This is over 20 years in the adult
care talking, not to mention the fact that these social workers are so over
worked and underpaid, as well as quit often do mistreated and disrespect
sometimes abuse clients, yes, I have seen this mess, , it’s way more common
then you’d think..... also rape victims / survivors should not be forced to have
the child, sure adoption is a great option, but again , very underfunded
understaffed over worked system, and so many kids out there end up in bad
foster homes or on the streets, i again have been in the field as a worker and
as a client, in multiple counties and states, so, why put a child through a
high risk of a lifetime of suffering....early term abortion should be a women’s
right and choice none of us have a right to judge this kind of situation and
make choices for or limit choices if we are not the ones going through it
directly, man or woman,.... unless you are the one or your spouse is the one
that is pregnant, its not up to anyone else but them and there dr. and we as
conservative Republicans, we want on the whole, " less government control"
....but yet so many of our people take the strong ''anti abortion'' stand and
try to change laws so no woman can have an abortion no matter her circumstances
or the childs circumstances, no, leave that up to the ones going through it and
their dr. but yes i do agree as i said earlier, in early term abortions only,
not waiting til 7 to 9 months in to do it.
Yes I know many disabled people live happy
full lives and participate in a meaningful way in life, in society, but the reality is there are many more who do not !
and
even the ones who are able to participate and
function somewhat there is still often a lot of pain in between the
joys.
And no matter which end of the spectrum
these kids end up on, often times
multiple family members end up suffering, great distress, their lives and goals completely shattered,
and altered in order to take care of
this person who might be : total or near total lifelong care, feces smearing,
non-verbal incontinent, screaming , drooling,
for decades and decades, families sometimes go bankrupt, lose their
careers, siblings dreams and life goals are crushed sometimes, so many lives are often effected in not so
good ways, by having to sacrifice and deal with a life long burden like this,
to varying degrees.
And I hate to say it but again, while this is not true for everyone, there are plenty
who it is the truth.
Why bring someone in to a world they cannot participate in or really benefit
from. And why put many others through un-needed suffering. To sacrifice for
this one person,
Also the
developmentally disabled also often suffer mental health issues in adult
hood as they are literally statistically the loneliest people on the planet,
most do not have any friends or relationships ---outside of the people PAID or volunteering with them, that is not healthy or normal relationships,
it is not good for a person mentally, psychologically or emotionally. It has
been proven time and time again this population often suffers from greatly depression,
stress and anxiety, from all of this.
Also,
unfortunately care giver abuse,
is very common, and no matter how much you might love your
family member, no one is going to love
them like you do, and once again, the social services are such an over worked, underpaid, inept,
unqualified group as a whole and its not fair to risk that for a child, if it can
be prevented.
Becoming disabled by age or by accident is a
whole different story, that is not
preventable, plus that person most likely has been able to function,
participate, gain and give back, before they became ill or disabled.
But these severe birth defects are often detectible
before birth, , the medical technology
is getting better and better.
Research
should be done to prevent and full on cure these things. And a mother who is
confirmed to have a baby with genetic or
chromosomal defect should be allowed and
encouraged to get an abortion. If you
are against this, then let me ask you this : would you take that child / children in to your home and give them lifelong care,
giving up your life, your career, your own goals and needs, your resources ,
neglect your other family members, friends, for this child?
This is not about the disabled being less
worthy, not at all. This is about not
risking un-needed suffering for the child as well as others involved and
effected !
this
is about thinking about the long term effects a severely disabled persons life
will likely have on themselves, on family members and others, not to mention
the resources, services and funds that they many times require and cannot always
get, when they do get them, the quality, the competence the reliability of
said services, all these things need to be thought about and taken into consideration
before people try to take it to extremes and make a full blanket ban on
abortion. .
This is about quality of life! for the
child as well as the quality of life and wellbeing for all who are involved in
dealing with severe disabilities.
Also: what about those situations where the
mother might be severely injured or is
likely to die if carrying a child? I don’t think its sensible to allow this
person to die and hurt all those this person has been involved with for years, for
an unborn baby.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of
a few. Do not risk such burdens and pain
on a child or others when it can be prevented,
im a republican conservative whos pro life, you make a compelling argument but it just ties back to having morality and care for the unborn child's right to life as Thomas Jefferson said in the declaration of independence (which is as american as it gets) people have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. and that " fetus " is not a cat or a dog, it is a human fetus, potential life.they have rights too
also putting a kid up for adoption is easier than you think, you can go to a fire station and drop a kid off and the wont even ask for your name. the kid having a bad life isnt an excuse to end their life because that would mean any person who has bad experiences in life would be worthless.
plus hitler wanted to kill disabled kids so that's very immoral of you
👏🏼👏🏼
Shaun Parkinson oh yeah??? why do you assume i wont adopt?? there are LOTS of parents who adopt.
@@godisgood2206 Not nearly enough, we're overpopulated
You know what, you convinced me, I should go kill my cousin who has downsyndrome. He wont live a happy life, so I shouldn't let him even try!
“I loved this video. I used to not really know where I stood pro-choice or pro-life. I knew personally I could never have one, I would feel too guilty being that I am such an emotional person. However, as I got older I started to lean very much so more towards pro-life. However, I love the program this woman started. The Exhale program is such an amazing idea for women and men all over. I know if I were to have an abortion (like I said before) I would feel so guilty and emotional throughout that time. Knowing there’s people like her and her program for men and women out there who may be struggling with the choice or with the choice they already made is amazing.”
Honestly abortion when the mother's life isn't in danger is so wrong. I would even go as far as to say it's murder.
This Ted talk was amazing. Speaking from personal experience, and being one who opposes abortion in most circumstances, Abortion has always been a very difficult topic to discuss with other people. And even if the topic does get brought up there is often instant negative judgments that are made towards either party - whether one is pro-choice or not. She mentioned this notion of ways to talk more openly about abortion, and in fact, these very skills she talked about can and should be used in every scenario in which you converse with someone. First, listen by asking open ended questions. In my own personal experience, if I'm asked open-ended questions, it immediately makes me feel safe. Like I can belong. Like I can be myself without feeling judged. So by asking open-ended questions, I know I will help someone feel like they can open up about anything - including difficult topics such as abortion. Another way she mentioned is to repeat the words that the person uses. This makes sense, since by using these "familiar" words, the person can feel more comfortable talking about something that may be a difficult topic. When the person hears you use words that are familiar to them, I wouldn't doubt that would make the person feel more at ease. Lastly, and by far my favorite thing she mentioned is that "empathy is not agreement". I think often we think that to be friends with someone, or to be loved, or to feel accepted in a community (including in social media), we have to agree with what people are saying, and often by doing these things we are betraying who we really are, and what our core beliefs really are. It's okay to not agree with someone! But instead of attacking a person for a belief they have, there's better ways to express your disagreement. I see so often in social media people making such harsh judgments towards someone with differing viewpoints than them. Although we all have autonomy - an important ethical component in all of this - As a society we must learn to kindly disagree with someone rather than making harsh judgments towards them. I hope we can all practice empathy towards other people, especially in times where we may disagree with them. I'm excited to try being a better listener to talk about difficult topics such as this!
Politicians (both males and females) in general should have no say with what a woman does with her own body. I also believe we should educate more women on this topic to prevent political nightmares and disagreements like this from getting worse in the future.
Except it's not about what a woman does with her body....it's what she's doing to someone else's body...
@@neilsimpson3359 we are not talking about the fetus, we are talking about the women's organs that are being used (and therefore her body). watch the video. abortion is something that is different for everyone.
That baby would probably really like not being violently slaughtered tho
@@sammyrae8591 i think you need to study science. Thats the female body works. The way you speak as if a fetus is a parasite to the mother😢
The way that I like to look at abortion is as of right now, it is legal. People who choose to have an abortion are not committing a crime or doing anything against the law. As long as this is legal, every individual person has the availability to make their own decision and form their own opinion about abortion. Although many people, including myself, do not agree with abortion, that is our opinion, and those who believe in prochoice, have their own opinion. According to the law, neither of us are making a wrong choice. However, I would like to argue that as long as abortion is legal, there should be a respect for the autonomy of the individuals who choose to partake in abortion. Healthcare professionals may run into situations where a patient of theirs is pregnant, and asking for their options. Although this professional may have their own views on abortion, they still need to express it as an option and respect whatever decision is made by the individual. This is someone's choice that they are allowed to make for themselves; however, they are too often looked down upon and shamed for their acts even though they are legally doing nothing wrong. There is no reason for people to think their beliefs are worth more than other peoples. At the end of the day, their actions are legal, and they should have respect for their autonomy, even if people do not agree with their actions.
Would that more people disagreed as you do.
I understand your view, especially because at one point I espoused it. However, the law is not the sole arbiter of what is right and wrong in a society, and as moral beings we must not limit ourselves only to the legal opinions issued by a small group of people. If that was the case, abolitionists should have never disagreed with slave owners, and killing Jews was not wrong because it was the law of the land (that was actually the excuse of the Nazis during the Nurenberg trials). The bottom line is that when the law of the land diverges substantially from basic principles of good and evil, the people have a choice: they can cry out and advocate until the legal opinions reflect the common moral law OR they can plead the fear & ignorance card the way Germans did in WWII with the Jews. PS. I have nothing against the Germans from today - they are not responsible for the sins of their grandparents & grand-grandparents.
You Rock!
@@NihilSineDeo09 And yet, abortion is not a moral issue.
No people are being harmed, or caused to suffer.
Yes! Well spoken...yet, just because something is legal doesn't make it right...just because the law makes it legal doesn't mean we should not do nothing...I mean then what's the point of living if you don't want to make this world a better place. We should only respect the decision because we are not no one to judge, but at the end of the day, we all know what abortion is and we know in reality we shouldn't/should do it... don't wanna state it. This is why there are so many anti-abortion organizations. They're not judging no one. I don't agree, like you, but no, im not gonna disrespect anyone who has one, but im not gonna give them for their side and act like its ok. I only have one life and my conscious gon be clean when my time come.
Mental note: NEVER read the UA-cam comments.
A bit of an oxymoron to say that, regardless of the stance taken on any issue, 'we're on your side' is either helpful or meaningful to someone confused/in distress. It is both possible and necessary to be able to have a stance on something as important as the right to life while being an excellent listener. There's a difference between withholding your opinion for the sake of empathy and conceding to relativistic nonsense. If help is the outcome aimed at, the latter helps no one. Moreover, if nonsense is nonexistent sense, and its impossible to respect something that doesn't exist, then how could we respect nonsense? It's impossible to respect someone without respecting his/her opinion, and how could you respect his/her opinion if relativism tells you that his/her opinion doesn't matter? No one has an opinion without the possibility of a truth higher than the opinion itself.
I wonder if she wonders what that child could have become.
Shaun Parkinson It’s called adoption; hundreds of thousands of families are looking for a child to adopt.
Shaun Parkinson I never said it should be illegal. We need to focus on providing much more birth control than there already is. Not just killing half a million people and acting like there’s nothing we can do about it.
i wonder if you ever consider what happens to the baby if there brought into the world.
@@bentonschaefer Yes! We should focus on making birth control and condoms more available. And we should help prevent unwanted pregnancies
I've never understood pro life's obsession with nonexistent people. If you mourn all the babies who are aborted, do you also mourn those who are miscarried? Do you mourn all the zygotes who weren't able to attach to the uterus? Do you mourn the millions of other potential people who could've been created in each ejaculation?
The one-in-three figure is not accurate, it's more like 28 percent of women.
fouroverseven Still pretty close, but closer to 1/4 if that stat is accurate.
fouroverseven Yup, it’s more like 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 now.
I wish she had talked more about abortion instead of going general with the pro-voice stuff .
Anyway, nice talk! :)
There needs to be explicitly documented stories cataloged of aaaalll the disposed/abandoned/unwanted birthed babies that a lot of elderly women admitted to in their later years. That removing abortion has never stopped the reality of women's lives.
This talk is essential, even though it was 7 years ago It is very relevant today with the overturn of Roe v. Wade. Those who are Pro-life may not see the bigger picture of why women choose abortion, they see it as murdering a human, not caring about the circumstance of the person that is carrying the baby. I'm currently taking a philosophy class where we are studying the arguments for abortion. We look at arguments that claim that abortion is killing humans and we find reasons or may argue what makes a human a human. Are there certain attributes that make you different from a fetus? We look and argue about the time in which you do the procedure, and whether is it permissible to wait until the fetus is developed. I say all that to say that this was a good talk especially for me while I am studying these arguments and claims. There should be a community that surrounds itself with those who feel that they don't have a voice.
This was really good. People should have these discussions. I think it would help us all politically. I am pro life but I have reservations recently. I just feel different and I don’t know why.
I used to be pro choice all my life until i became pro life a few years ago, after taking a deep dive into the issue and started researching and listening to all available viewpoints and arguments from all sides.
Im curious as to why you are pro life and what reservations you are starting to have?
@@edres7563 same here, always been pro choice but very recently I struggle to stand by that. I'm starting to lean toward pro life but I don't want to be "that guy"... You know what I mean.
@@Bugbuns I understand what you mean. Its not easy having the courage of your convictions, in a society that is so heavily indoctrinated with pro abortion lies, propaganda and illogical and emotional lack of reason.
They have succeeded in making most people forget about the basic facts of human biolgy and devlopment, and emotionally manipluating the rest, not to mention created millions of walking wounded psychologically damaged post abortive women and men, who are in bitter denial with their own conscience, that they will fight with a violent vehemence for the right to kill, that will make any sensible shudder with horror, once their cognitive dissonance has lifted.
So its hard to stand up in the face of such madness and such blatant pro abortion lies and manipulative proaganda that stikes at the emotional core of most people. Its a billion dollar industry with a fiendishly cunniing sophistry to legitimize the killing of human children, that would make any mass murderer stunned with disbelief.
@@edres7563 I appreciate the response. I'm still very much struggling with both sides of the debate but I can firmly conclude that contraceptives need to be talked about more. Whether you are pro life or pro choice you must agree that we live in a world where abortions don't ever really have to take place because there are so many options for birth control.
I used to be pro life until I feared becoming pregnant myself. I would never want to have the choice taken away from me.
Being prochoice means that you are pro self defense. I want to have the right to decide that possible sepsis and death is not a risk I want to take and I want to defend myself against the thing that can do that harm to me.
Pregnancy is hella dangerous and those who change their mind about taking the risk to go all the way through with it should have the option to get out of it.
I know someone who had 5 children. She told me it was the 5th pregnancy that almost killed her. One can go through multiple pregnancies and still risk their life with the next one.
Women/girls and men/boys and transgender people have gender specific issues. I started watching TED about 3 years ago and I have yet to see someone taking about men/boy issues, though I have seen plenty talking about women's/girl's issues and few about transgender issues. Did I miss some videos? If not can we contact someone and ask them to increase the diversity on TED of gender issues.
Overonator Not sure if this is relevant, but the entire audience was women.
ScruffyTheJ uhhh are you sure about that...?
Hunter Johnson
Well like 90% at least. 3:50
Not sure if this is confirmation bias, but I'm believe you're right.
Check out Adam Garone, founder of Movember.
OpiatedBliss Do you have any more details about that TED talk? I want to find it.
Mastering financial responsibility before procreating is more ethical and successful than after procreating. It could even be said that being financially unprepared to procreate and procreating regardless is irresponsible and unethical, especially in today’s first world societies.
Exactly.
it's all about respect...
I personally feel that if a woman is seeking an abortion she should be told ALL of her options, not just the abortion option, but adoption and keeping the baby. To be a truly fully informed choice, I also feel she should at least be shown the ultrasound &/or the heartbeat at least once. No, Im not saying it should be forced on them but encouraged to do so. To abort without having all the facts is not a good way to go in my opinion. I think it just leads to more women having regret...especially after reading so many stories about women saying "If I had only known...that there was a real person in there..." and so forth. Im just saying...be fully informed before making a decision. :)
Absolutely.
But not coerced or pressured.
Is that why the liberals object to mandatory 24-hour wait periods and ultrasounds?
@@NihilSineDeo09 IT's not a liberal or conservative issue.
And by implying that it is, you paint yourself quite visibly.
Those who are against it, are so, because we know what it is: More pressure to convince the woman, not to have an abortion.
And it's bullshit, because most women who go in, have put considerable thought into it, for hours or days. Thanks to y'all, this minor medial issue is considered a big deal.
@@antediluvianatheist5262 I am personally in favour of socialization. I think that would solve this issue. If we can take the fertilized egg and simply impregnate another women who voluntarily agrees to carry out the birth via a social network, then abortions become obsolete. My position is probably just as horrifying to people. I think in a perfect world we would have artificial wombs.
@@antifascistafox7795 We already have a similar capability now.
All we have to do, is when a woman wants an abortion, we take a stem cell sample of the fetus, and store it.
Then, when she wants a baby later on, she can have THAT baby again.
this tech exists now. And will only get cheaper and more accessible over time.
And if that woman never gets into a place where she can raise a family, those potential fetuses can be donated to sterile couples.
That should keep the anti-choicers happy. That potential baby gets to live, later.
After all, they are forever ranting on about 'unique DNA' all the time.
Well this preserves it.
That should test their ideology.
Sounds like relativism. I guess it’s good to vent without getting any advice as to how to better oneself or how to make the best deduction, but in the long run, if the world all held this belief there would be no right or wrong, and no one could call anything right or wrong or do anything about it. It would not work as a whole for society. Cool to vent tho 🤷♂️
LOL
Morality is subjective unless you believe in a higher power. Believing in a higher power is subjective unless you do not accept the existence of a higher power, in this case it is based on cold calculated lack of evidence and in our world that is as objective as you can get.
Agreed, everything is not morally neutral.
While a bit nervous, she's nailing it!
I would be grateful to talk with this woman.
This talk is unfortunately a bit snide, and aims at bringing a form of superficial peace or healing to an issue that requires genuine and deep touches of lasting help. For this reason it is also extremely arrogant as it claims to purport worth while endeavors when in fact it offers no real solutions or wisdom on the subject of abortion at all. This woman is disliked by many precisely because she lives in denial and confusion over her own past and life issues but has tried to project herself as a 'help' and source of genuine purpose. She has not come to terms with herself and her own issues with abortion, but wants to excuse her own weakness or double-mindedness by taking the attention away from objective reality and instead place it in a 'make believe' reality where she serves some purpose in her own 'make believe' world.
This is unfortunately a common theme in Western countries, particularly America which is nominally Christian. Women like this one are born into and raised in an environment where they believe they are Christian, a cut above the rest and with the key of eternal life; not realizing that on a subjective and personal level, in most cases, nothing could be further from the truth. Then their 'world view' sense of self-worth, morality and everything they believe is personally tested when they are faced with the choice to have something like an abortion. From that day on they live in denial, never willing to forsake the false narratives of their moral upbringing which has given them so much fake righteousness and moral superiority, and yet, on the other hand, never wanting to own up to the decision they made to have an abortion which devalues them according to their sense of morality. People like this woman NEVER bring any help to the issues they address because they ignore the root problems and are living in denial having not sorted out or owned their own life choices.
And in case you are inclined to disagree with me, think about this woman's logic and methodology or approach in relation to other 'hot topics' such as racism, split families, economic inequality and the suppression of the poor by the rich through dishonest financial practices, etc. Or take an issue that is both personal and important to you. The conclusion is simple: Ignoring the real and root issues to any subject NEVER helps in the long run. And btw, further above where it seemed I may have been bashing Christianity, please understand dear Christians that I was not. I was merely bashing the superficial and counterfeit forms of 'Christianity' which is based in traditions, structures and rules, which has usurped what could be genuine. When an issue in someones life is causing guilt, like it clearly is with this woman, then it must be addressed no matter how painful. What this woman is doing is trying to create an environment where this guilt can be hid from and never faced. It is a coward's approach. A cowardice brought on by self-righteousness, which doesn't bring any lasting healing or closure or intrinsic power to bear on the situation.
I wish your reply was required reading in school - that's how eloquent and thorough it is.Wisdom is standing in the middle of the road, but most people pass by it and they keep their course.
This is the truest thing I've seen all day.
Yes!!!
I'm sorry, have you ever had an abortion? Are you a woman? I can concretely say that her points are very valid. I can also say, with complete certainty, that you do not know what you are talking about when it comes to this matter. What is her weakness? What do you think she needs to come to terms with?
@@kaitlincarlberg4283 what points? This woman made no comments about the morality of abortion other than it is okay because it is common. Explain to me the validity of that argument since you are female and somehow that overrides the opinions of other people solely because of gender. On top of that, I don't think you realize that specifically the lack of taking sides on the speaker's part is what prompted mike's response, and is precisely why he made the completely sound point that the speaker is in denial of her own actions. You're just another pawn in the abortion activist political movement, making the same old, flawed points over and over again like "Are you a woman? If not, my opinion is worth more than yours" or "You have never had an abortion so you have no room to judge!" Which are both inherently flawed fallacies, and both completely irrelevant to the points brought up prior. Here's a good rule of thumb: Actually understand the argument you are responding to before you attempt to refute it.
Why need emotional support if it's not a human( the aborted baby)?
If it's not human, the procedure will be the same as pulling a tooth at the dentist...yet we dont hear of any post dental depression.
It’s a life that needs a chance to live, these babies need to grow up and live a full life. If you die before you get to the age of 10, it’s sad because you didn’t get to live your life to the fullest. Abortion makes it so that you couldn’t even live those 10 years, oops I meant not even 1 day or 1 second of living with their own free will, and chance to make their own decisions
@@DaZsCentral okay but you need to step out of those shoes and think about the woman. her life is important too. if she can’t raise the baby it’s nobody but her and the dads decision of what she should do. you can argue that the fetus should’ve had a chance to live, but i will argue that the woman should get to live her life the way she wants, considering she’s the one carrying the fetus.
@@gabbymadera3727 If she's the one who need to take decisions of her life, then she should have taken care of unplanned pregnancy. If she wasn't careful enough, and conceived a baby, then she must carry and nurture it.
Abortion is just murdering. The foetus have a life it's just inside the womb. If killing the baby inside the womb is legal, then why not killing the same baby outside the womb is legal?
@@gabbymadera3727 you might seem like you have a good point but what’s to stop me from someone committing crime or going and killing themselves so they can live the way they want. It’s a flawed argument because there is more at stake rather than “living their own lives” there needs more discussion and conversation to be done about this issue and the moral dilemma people face when it comes to having an unplanned pregnancy. It’s awful that it happens in the first place. You have to choose whether you kill it or raise a child who you look at as a burden on your financial and mental well being. Either way the child will have to pay the price along with the parents.
@@DaZsCentral It's not right to make women give birth against their will just because the idea of a fetus not getting to grow up hurts your feelings. Nobody is entitled to use another person's body and organ systems to live.
Being pro-voice is fine in general. Being an attentive listener is great. I do not even mind using the same language for reflection as tehe person telling the story as long as it does not give an impression that you are agreeing with them necessarily. Somethings we should not agree with even if someone is telling you about it as their own story.
But if abortion is killing an innocent human being in normal and natural circumstances like a fetus being inside a mother's uterus then it seems like the morality is clear for at least the vast majority of abortions. It is wrong. It should also be illegal in the vast majority of cases also if that is the case.
You can and should hear stories of women who had abortions but again this does not have to mean that you agree with the woman. She can be wrong. So one can leave room for stories and debate but not acceptance of everything. That is how I think that much of listening advice goes wrong. I had to learn empathy and attentive and compassionate listening as a chaplain. I did not agree with everyone I heard. I did listen and use empathy, etc. Whether one believes abortion is right or wrong I cannot see how my ideas about listening are not correct.
"killing an innocent human being in normal and natural circumstance" But that's the whole point. by saying it is a human being you are ascribing personhood to something that simply is not the case. you wouldn't call blueprints a house or an egg a chicken. even if there is a whole different set of human DNA. that does not naturally mean it is a person. And oftentimes the morality question does not necessitate that the fetus is a person to understand that a woman has autonomy of her own body. it is not killing so much as it is simply removal of a life form and preventing that life form from robbing you of your own body's natural resources. in the same manner that I cannot simply force you to donate blood to save my life or give me the right to take a kideny from you even if your kidney is the ONLY one that would save me. You have every right to say no.
In this case, the mother has every right to say no. If the fetus is a person, then that person in the womb has no right to take away resources from another human being. it has no right to survival if that survival is 100% dependent on the woman's womb. We have a right to live, but not at the expense of invading another person's body.
So the morality is clear. abortion cannot ever be considered murder or killing.
@@mattolmedo4690 "you wouldn't call blueprints a house or an egg a chicken. even if there is a whole different set of human DNA. that does not naturally mean it is a person. "
If I break open and egg and chick pops out then yes I call that a chicken. The fetus is not like a blue print. Scientifically, the fetus is alive and human. You are just saying that not all living humans should be given the normal rights as a human being. That is scary.
" it is not killing so much as it is simply removal of a life form and preventing that life form from robbing you of your own body's natural resources n the same manner that I cannot simply force you to donate blood to save my life or give me the right to take a kideny from you even if your kidney is the ONLY one that would save me. You have every right to say no."
The problem is the life form is human and you are doing something to another human body. Thus, only if you give no rights to that living human can you say that you can do what you want to his/her body. It is not just the woman's body and that is why that argument does not work. the kidney argument does not work either since this is a natural process. Giving a kidney to someone else is a completely different situation. That is not a natural or normal thing to do. It is normal for a baby to grow inside its mother. Also there is no other choice. We cannot take the fetus out right now so we cannot stop it besides killing the baby. Thus you have to judge what right is more important. The right to life or the right to one's body. We have many cases and laws that show that the right to life trumps any supposed right to the right to your own body. Except Roe vs. Wade which makes no sense. The government says all the time what I have to do or what I cannot do with our bodies. But again the fetus is alive and human. We even say it is much worse or even double murder if a pregnant woman is killed.
"n this case, the mother has every right to say no. If the fetus is a person, then that person in the womb has no right to take away resources from another human being. it has no right to survival if that survival is 100% dependent on the woman's womb. We have a right to live, but not at the expense of invading another person's body. So the morality is clear. abortion cannot ever be considered murder or killing.".
That makes no sense. If you have a baby you must either take care of the baby or find someone to take care of him. If you just leave it alone and she dies then you are a murderer. Thus the government says you must do something to protect this baby. The fetus had no choice whether to be inside the mother's body or not. She cannot be given to another person. Thus, the only choice is for the baby to get the nutrition it needs to survive from his mother. An infant just born is totally dependent on another. If you leave it alone she will soon die. We do have a right to live. The morality is clear. The baby in the womb is doing what babies do normally. It is not strange or asking for something that is not natural or not asking for something in which we all asked for in the past.
So you have to say that some living humans do not have a right to live under normal situations and asking for normal things for his or her survival. Thus, you say the right to a woman's body is more important than a right to life of another innocent human. I think legally that should be against the law given other laws we have. Morally it is super clear. We have a moral responsibility to the innocent fetus. The fetus is the only one who is always completely innocent. The one human that has done nothing wrong. You want to say it is okay to kill him or her. I say it is wrong to kill an innocent human. You say it is fine if that human is naturally and normally relyign on its mother for survival. That seems super strange and evil.
@@carlpeterson8182 i understand why they didn't reply to you. your entire take is just laughable and you're constantly contradicting yourself its embarrassing
@@abbeytriplett8194 Please back up your statement. If you cannot then I will then I will just ignore you and hope others do also.
@@carlpeterson8182 my backup statement is your entire reply 1 inch above^! (-:
Nope, flawed. An embryo is entirely depended on the mothers body. Pregnancy causes nausea and vomiting, heartburn, fatigue, discomfort, pain, in some cases cracked ribs, death, illness, depression, and more. It literally changes everything about the body, and it is no longer just yours. A living child is an actually human that can survive without being attached to the mother. And, if you'll notice, parents generally just get their children removed for neglect, because once you have the child, it has it's own body autonomy. Abuse is illegal, obviously because you're not allowed to legally harm others, even if they are your children.
It is so sad that something like abortion is so hard for people to talk about. Politics and the media have made "sides" on every topic. You either agree or you disagree with a topic, and far too many people are unable to see both sides and to tolerate the people on the opposing side. We as a group of citizens need to learn to set aside our differences again and be more open-minded when it comes to controversial topics.
Abortion is common. For some people it is the only way. Far too many children are growing up without families and living in foster care waiting for adoption. Far too many people in this country either cannot afford to have a child, or would just be better off without one. Allowing women to make their own choice, within reason, is better for so many unborn children than forcing them to go through with the pregnancy.
This is not to say that all abortion is the right thing to do. Abortion within limits should be completely legal. What I mean by this is that abortion before 9 weeks should be legalized. Nine weeks is plenty of time to make the decision before the fetus has developed past the point of non-human features. I also believe there should be a limit to the number of abortions a woman should be allowed to have. It would not make sense for a woman to go through with more than two procedures. At that point, something in her needs to be changed.
Women need to know that their lives are not all about growing old and reproducing. Women need to know that there are options and there are people who will not hate her for her choices when she tries to do what she knows is best for her and her unborn child. Why should we force women to give up on their lives to raise a child they know they will struggle with? Why is it okay for us to force women to have these babies when she knows she will not be able to care for that child? Why should we force women to have to make the choice between having a baby and giving it away, or having the baby and not being able to give it the life it deserves? Life is precious, but not precious enough that we should allow it to go on when we know that the life they are destined for is not what they deserve.
Just think of the amount of child abuse and child endangerment cases we can remove from the statistics if we allow abortion to be legal and easy to obtain. We should not be subjecting young children to lives of hardships because they were born at the wrong time.
I listened to this very careful hoping I would learn something. What I learnt was that this woman had an abortion, she has a friend named Polly and she is desperate about something called as pro voice.
It's great how much emphaty there is for woman but we're is the emphaty for the baby?
So you want to force women to have a baby? No matter the circumstances? What is your power trip?
@@earnthis1 If her life is at risk, it's her choice to abort. Otherwise no abortions in any other case are justified, it's murder.
@@earnthis1 so you just take away the future of a potential human being bcoz of inconvenience of the mother or father or doesn't want to take the responsibility of their own action?
@@earnthis1 what is your power trip, that you think any person has the right to take an innocent life?
There never was a baby,it was a fetus/zygote
Thank you.
_"one in three women will have an abortion in their lifetime (U.S.)"_
Wow, I had no idea it was this prevalent. I would have guess it to be an order of magnitude less common.
Still, I'm in total support of abortion (except for _very_ late term ones). Babies that their mothers don't want to have, shouldn't be had. That's compassionate and responsible in my eyes; not condemning children to grow up in difficult conditions where they develop pathologies, become a problem demographic and continue the cycle.
Super boring talk though, very little substance.
Where do you draw the line between very late abortions? Let's say you drew the line at 38 weeks. Is a baby at the age of 37 weeks and 6 days (technically before your line) less worthy to live than one who is 38 weeks?
Thank you for posting this, TED! 😀
Here’s an open-ended question: How can we get people to value life at all stages?
Poli Incredible artificial wombs
that's exactly what pro-choice people ask. Unless you can prove that you value life after birth, it's hard to believe you value life at all.
Probablepossible are you saying that you display your value for life by ending life???
Pro-lifers support numerous efforts to assist mothers in crisis pregnancies, adoption agencies, and impoverished families, thereby demonstrating our value for life 🥰
@@poliincredible770 - Except that most of you don't seem to care after the babies are born. And pregnancies are sometimes a threat to the mothers life.
@Merete Mitfuldenavn are you saying that you display your value for life by ending life???
Pro-lifers support numerous efforts to assist mothers in crisis pregnancies including counseling, adoption agencies, food pantries, and more, demonstrating our value for life 🥰
focus, people, focus!
the topic isn't "abortion" it is "listening 101"
she is using abortion & giving birth as a spectrum of understanding. You don't have to agree with someone to have empathy for them. christ! this title will have such a negative impact on the message. great job TED!
Just need common sense abortion control. Need to come to some sort of consensus, or as close as we can to a clear point in which abortions are ok and at what point they become not ok.
Pro-voice... Only some does not anymore have a body to have a voice with...
Great talk, sad that so many people downvoted it. I just get the image of a child with their fingers in their ears screaming '"la la la la"
Since you are the adult in the room, why don't you join the conversation and have a meaningful discussion with those who disagreed with the speaker?
I don’t get the picture of that child, because, sadly, it’s life was cut short.
@@thesimplegospel3529 You are assuming that most people who down voted the video didn't watch it. That may be false. I watched all of it but still down voted it.
@@thesimplegospel3529
It was about listening AND about being non-judgemental. First part of the message is OK, we need to listen to each other with civility and respect. Second part is not OK, not if you are talking about something as fundamental as whether a fetus is human or not. People are moral beings and we have the capacity to pass moral judgement on a stance like abortion. Asking a pro-lifer to be non-judgemental about abortion is like asking an abolitionist in the 19th century to keep his opinions about slavery private.
That's a better image then a child being pulled apart and flushes down the drain. Any woman who has an abortion and isn't emotionally wrecked by it is either acting like that child you spoke of or lacking a soul.
This is yet another wordplay to distort the truth. It isn't loving to deny someone the truth and side with them on their lie. Compare it to someone being broke, who doesn't want to admit to that, and keeps referring to himself as wealthy, lying to you about his bank statement, and forces you to accept his view, otherwise he doesn't feel accepted for the person he is, and blames you for not being tolerant and loving if you don't affirm his feeling of being rich. If someone is broke and keeps making blind decisions that add to his 'brokenness', clearly headed towards a life of destruction, the most loving thing to do, is to tell them that they are broke.
If we can talk about it it's okay to do what we want. What's a life compared to me having fun. Impregnating a women if she can't cope with the pregnancy is violence against women of the worst kind, to put them into a situation where they feel to have to kill their own child, thus something to help them out of, not to make them permanent victims of the men that exploit them. Thus if faced with such a situation it helps to understand the crisis of the other person, but to reinforce actions that kill lives is not pro humanity. Otherwise she is just a hollow echo chamber like the social media you search and find arguments to reinforce your own thinking.
Listen to Stephanie Gray instead if you want to find a better way to talk about abortion
This is a good video, for it lets women know that talking about abortion is okay. Abortion has always been a topic that is kept quiet, and I think the speaker makes a good point at saying this causes women to feel alone. In fact, abortion is rather common and nothing to be ashamed of. The speaker does an excellent job in leaving politics out of the case, and just letting women and men talk about their abortion experiences. She makes a stand to call her point of view on abortion "pro voice", and says that people should tell stories and listen to each other about their deep personal stories. This is not always easy, for people have such opinionated views on abortion, and cannot help but bring politics into it. Everyone needs an outlet and emotional support after a life changing decision like abortion. This video bring a whole new positive side to abortion, and I think it is a step in the right direction.
Abortion OK unless you are the baby
so amazing :) Thank you so much for sharing and for positively changing the conversation!! such a courageous, powerful woman and very well spoken.
Well spoken - move the abortion from a criminal issue to a health issue so women can get the help and support she needs - GO PRO-VOICE.
Thumb down for the title not really matching the content.👎🏻
(I'm pro-listening, but I had the hope to hear more talk about what's in the title instead of kind of an advertisement for her talkline.)
If someone says they are suicidal it's OK. Someone talks about the rage they feel towards society and their urges to do something about it...OK.
Really? That doesn't sound like a good approach.
0:50 " i did not know how to decide" what about balancing what's more "important" a human life or ones own irresponsibility and convenience ? I'd choose the former.
Pro life. Need to stop abortion it is evil.
As someone who had an unplanned pregnancy it was a lonely place, but I knew that abortion was not morally neutral. I chose life first actually to safeguard my mental health because I am an empath. People make the argument that the fetus' intense dependence points to it being okay to remove it, but birthed babies are just as dependent. Life begins at conception when oocyte and sperm lead to an organism under constant development. It is like a asteroid ripping through space, the potential is being actualized; development is continuing from conception until the brain is done development in the mid-twenties. My heart breaks for women who have had to make that decision. Unwanted pregnancies should be prevented in society, but sometimes unwanted pregnancies turn into the best thing to ever happen to someone. Children are a blessing. (:
This topic was more about her branding she created "Pro-Voice". I was hoping to get her side of abortion and how she feels towards it.
If a woman is raped should she be forced to keep a child? If a contraceptive method fails should she be forced to keep a child? If she takes the pill every single day but is in the 2% that gets pregnant should she have to keep a child she wanted to prevent? Some people are unlucky and the woman should always have the final say when a child is growing inside her, causing sickness and pain, pretty much leaving her on her own with a unlucky accident she did everything to prevent. We trust women. #prochoice
The best answer to all these issues is to reconcile with God in the sacrament of confession.
Because ultimately it's with God that the breakdown has occurred. And it's to God that each of must return when our human life ends.
Because this temporary human existence is part of the Eternal journey.
Pray for all people who find it difficult to carry their cross🙏🙏🙏
1 in 3 women?
Yes. Was there more to that question?
"In a life-time"
So they probably had baby later.
I can't find a single coherent string of thoughts in this entire speech. Abortion is currently common? Ok, true... It's good to have empathy, and listen to and accept each other's pasts and experiences? I didn't think that had to be spelled out to anyone, but yes, that is also true... Those aren't pro-choice arguements. It sounds like she's trying to reassure herself instead of provide solid arguements for this controversial topic.
At 2:03 the lady in the bottom left looks real sad
"Women this, women that, women evertyhing" -TED
Omg exactly lol
Pirispanen And, is that a problem?
TheSpaceTiger Not if you're the average Buzzfeed reader or a vocal feminist. See TED shouldn't be pushing any agenda, merely tell us wide variety of stories, ideas and discoveries. In the past 1-1½ months there has been over 5 talks just about women's "issues", in which some of them aren't even real or relevant. As if women are the big victims in the western society.
Pirispanen This particular one is not just about women.
Pirispanen TED can push any agenda it deems will help the human race.
nothing has harmed me as much as the unthinking monstrosity of my wife aborting OUR child.
I’m sorry this happened to you, Darren. It’s rather unfortunate
I'm very sorry for you. I hope God comforts you in this.
I hoped she talked to you about it before making the *HER* choice
@@spicysmooth2 A discussion definitely needed to be had beforehand 👍
@@quesadilla9957 Yeah, wouldn’t want his feelings hurt about *HER* abortion
Terrible title. Should be "Aspen Baker: How to be a good listener"
Using confusing language only increases the individual's fog. Help them find clarity by listening with a brain instead of PC concepts.
wow, if I was this womens son, I would be sooo screwed up. I would constantly think, "why wasn't it me?" or "I could have had a sibling". i'm not ostracizing people who get abortions, all im saying is this kid will be very interesting to watch as he grows and develops. i'm curious, how would you feel?
Mr. Wolftastic nobody ever concerns themselves with anyone besides the woman. because women are oppressed, right?
Mr. Wolftastic Why don't you for a second put yourself in her shoes and feel what she would have felt... we don't even know the details of how she fell pregnant.. was it a long time boyfriend or a mistake night? Was she financially, emotionally and physically capable for carrying full-term? You just don't know until you ask the person and actually listen. Her son would be fine if he is brought up with by a woman who values listening and open debate...
Mr. Wolftastic I wouldn't be selfish and just think about myself. If my mum was in trouble and needed an abortion I wouldn't even know any different. I would rather my mum to abort than to suffer.
You would know if you were a fetus...when the instrument of the abortionist comes to shear and puncture your body, you would most certainly know.
@@NihilSineDeo09 no, not really. The fetus is unconscious during the pregnancy due to a lack of oxygen in the fetal fluids. They have a reaction to pain, but they don't actually feel it.
this movement really took off. people are hearing voices all the time now.
This was kinda of about abortion but I don't think it addressed the real moral question about abortion. Although I do appreciate the open dialogue.
I am really relieved to hear an open minded voice. I support choice in all arenas! Please yoytube! Allow freedom of ideas for all!!!
It is a double issue. An unwanted pregnancy is a mistake and what to do with it. Adoption is good whenever it can be used which would include families and the father. Him getting the child he might want to keep is a harder to achieve. Some will get an abortion and some will not. I recon both possibilities needs to be open to discuss.
It's either your for abortion or your not you can't sugar coat it either way
"Support and respect for all" sounds nice, but I'm skeptical. Am I wrong to say that the outcome of these conversations is usually for the person to feel less conflicted about their experience? What if they did something genuinely despicable? Imagine an evangelical mother calling, conflicted about her decision to cut off all contact with her son who recently came out as gay. Is it right for her to walk away feeling more confident about that decision? Does she deserve "support?"
Emphasizing with her is important, yes. Understanding how she came to that decision, to see it as a real and serious conflict between two things she holds very dear, and not as simply callous, is important. But I would feel uncomfortable endorsing something that made such a person feel more secure in a decision to be a bigot. On the flip side, I can see pro-lifers being aghast at letting a women who had (in their eyes) *killed an innocent child* be comforted. What kind of value these interactions have seems highly sensitive to an individual's personal view point.
The only way this makes sense is if it's more an exercise in understanding other points of view than providing a service. In other words, if it's more about us than them. Which seems... Odd. Maybe I'm missing the point?
You nailed it!
well said
I would argue that the whole world is NOT on the “side of the women” making the choice for abortion. Your talk is just a play on words to make this all acceptable and okay. What is being said is- it’s a hard choice so if we “just listen” it will be okay. “When we reflect on the words people are saying we are conveying that we have an interest in who they are and what they are going through.”
So we want to be able to “listen and talk” with empathy, okay, but no matter how well people are taught to listen and talk with someone about abortion, no listening ear or kind words can take away the FACT that an innocent human being’s life is at stake of being ended by the choice of the person who is the host (the mother) of that newly formed life. No matter how hard we listen or what kind words are used in talking with someone about abortion only the right of the host (mother) is being considered and the right of the life of the newly formed human being (the baby) is being denied.
Wonderful approach 🌷
Its sad that people think that going through a difficult situation is a way to justify a story that ends with "and so I killed my baby"
Yeah honestly.......
We live in a fallen world 😔
Abortion is not 'killing a baby'. If you see a woman killing a baby, call the police. Removing a fetus with no ability to live independently from your uterus is not the same as killing a born baby.
It doesn’t change the fact that it is a baby
@@acvideos47 Whether it's a baby or not is completely irrelevant. It violates a woman's human rights to make her stay pregnant and give birth against her wishes.
The more you wait, the more it is criminal, end of discussion..
If you find a bird egg in the wild and you eat it do you say "I ate a bird" or "I ate an egg"?
Is the egg fertilized already? :)
@@NihilSineDeo09 ahahahhaa. So you don't respect the potential life? If we keep the egg warm in an incubator that give birth to a little bird. So yes the egg is already fertilized.y god, you're so dumb.
ginger, you're the dumbest
@@bp6329 The really dumb ones don't know how dumb they are. Knowing basic biology is a luxury.
What she proposes is really nice. But defibitelly, she didn't undestand the claim of the anti-anortionist at all. This solves almost nothing
There is nothing more sad that bring a life not planed and that will not be loved and also will be poor. Abortion drop crime, give great life to women and childrens...
Give it for adoption, baby! And by the way, most women who decide to go ahead with a pregnancy (despite having second thoughts) fall in love with their babies when they get born. Even the ones who give up the babies for adoption still remain attached to them. For every child who regrets being born there are hundreds who are happy that they were allowed to come out of the womb.
Mike Nica that might be true but what about women who are raped
@@Luna-mq8ke
If the rapist is caught a publicly televised castration should be done. The child should not have to pay for the sin of a deranged man. That child has equal dignity with the kids who are procreated and later born in loving families. Having said that, as a society we need to build a better infrastructure to support the women who due to rape, age, economic reasons etc do not want to keep their babies and to help them to bring those babies to life, while also respecting their desire to be childless.
Murdering 2 year old children in the inner city will prevent the sad problem of children not being loved their entire life and them being poor. It will also drop the crime rate and will give great life to everyone
Also, ask every single foster child, even the ones that did not find "loving families" to adopt: 90+ percent will tell you that they are grateful that they have been brought in this world, instead of being aborted.
If the life of a newborn should be dictated by the feelings of the parents towards the infant, then wr should have the right to kill babies out of the womb if we don't feel like taking care of them. Wait, isn't this already suggested by some Democrats?!
Sorry lady, killing babies is horrible.
Farty DeBlank nah
Forcing a women to look after a child if horrible. U are refusing to give women the right over their own reproduction systems I'm sorry but it's not right. On many countries having an abortion is the only was that a women wouldn't be kicked out of their house or abused for having a child
It can ruin a young women's life
Of course women should be careful and take care of their own bodies and reduce the chances of being in a situation where they have a unwanted child. However there are loads of situations that can be found like rape and forcing a women to have the child which they can't look after (remember that people have abortion because either they can't look after the child or they are too young) It can cause the child to have a terrible life they may not even survive if for example the mother's parents disown her and she gets forced to fend for herself. It happened often and we can't take away someone's right to a life. I'm going to say it now that I'm a young woman (Age is classified) and if I was too find out that I'm pregnant it would ruin my life and I would be devastated. I would follow the abortion rules for example I think it's above 5 weeks u cannot abort but I'm afraid I think abortion would be my only option. To understand there point of view u must imagine a situation where I wouldn't and couldn't keep the child. It is a very difficult decision but I'm sure that alot of women will be able to make that choice and I want that choice to be available.
If Pro Voice seeks to create a culture that values what
makes us special and unique and values what makes us human (our flaws, our
imperfections), why do you say abortion is ok? Help me understand why the human
growing inside the woman’s womb is somehow not special and unique simply
because it is smaller, not as developed, is more dependent and not in the same
place as you or I? Sorry, Pro Voice may be a better way to talk about some
things, but never to justify the willful and deliberate act of killing another
human being.
They don't like abortion, nobody likes abortion. But they place a higher moral value on a live human - someone who is DEFINITELY a person, than on a fetilized zygote that there is no agreement (between physicians, bioethicists, philosophers, and other scientists) as to wherher or not it's a person.
bartender have always been a good listener...