Demerzel the robot is the most fascinating character for me but the actor for Day carried the show. Dude was born for this role. That’s why he was so good in the Hobbit too.
Lee Pace, Juilliard graduate, theatre and films such as The Hobbit and Lincoln. His TV/streaming drama performance on AMC’s “Halt and Catch Fire” praised by many.
That is Lee Pace. A great actor. ( Thranduil from the Hobbit, Ronan from Guardians, and Capt. America, Roy from The Fall , Pushing Daisies. Hault and Catch Fire, and many more movies, tv and Broadway. Gorgeous man.
I think Demerzel gave us the reason she killed Dawn in her conversation with Halima. roughly, she says that even if she tried not to kill Halima, her programming would force her to. And as much as she loved Dawn, her programming kicked in, and she snapped his neck. Her soul wracking scream is a reaction to what she was forced to do.
so if it turns out that brother Day and Dusk are also altered, she would be compelled to kill them also, and if the prime Cleon has been altered as suggested, then what?
Demerzel is loyal to the empire and the cleonic dynasty. As soon as she figures out that the current cleons are not pure copies, and thus they're not the cleonic dynasty, she will be free to do as she please. Maybe Cleon the 1st created the cloning of the cleons as a means to keep Demerzel in check. And that she's the actual ruler of the empire while the clones think they're in control.
That would an interesting twist, there have been instances where individuals or organizations effectively ruled an empire from behind the scenes, similar to the Janissaries who would depose of sultans.
agree too.. if a robot can kill a ruler and says it also that they mean nothing in front of her mission,Dont get fooled in the end she is only a devil heartless killermaschine.. there will be a reason for the robot wars.
I still say Demerzel & Daneel are the same as in the books. Secretly running everything from the shadows. Be very telling if we find out of Demerzel was the true originator of psychohistory as in the books. IIRC Hari put it into practice but Demerzel & another truly created it. Granted, I'm old and read these in high school so facts are fuzzy.
Remember, season one ended over 100 years after the main action of the latter half of the season. I suspect when we return we will see a much expanded society on Terminus and a much deteriorated Trantor with increasingly disabled Cleons.
@@AugustoMazzoli I think they'll change the storyline a little to keep the actors in the series for longer. Look what happened to altered carbon when people couldn't grasp why the main character was a completely different actor the second season. My bet is they'll keep Saldor, Harry, Demerzel and the Cleons for as long as possible.
I have to stand behind my suspicion that I commented in the last video that Demerzel must have a big role in trying to take down the Cleons. She may even be the designer of the plot. She is the only one we've seen with the motive, opportunity and the means. She is also the one most patient and willing for this plan to take generations to accomplish.
I wish you would talk about the handwavey things and spoiler things because you're the only channel really covering the series with an in depth knowledge of the books. I want to know everything. HAHAHA
I think Cleon the first probably inserted some code into Demerzel which overrides her loyalty to the individual Cleons, in favor of the overall dynasty. That's why it was so easy for her to kill Dawn. However that conflicts with her requirement to protect the individual Cleons, that's why she went crazy and ripped off her own skin, trying to resolve the two conflicting directives. It's possible that she herself initiated the plan to change the genetic code of the subsequent Cleons, so that she no longer needs to be loyal to them, resolving her inner conflict. Isn't it fascinating that the most popular aspect of the show are the two aspects that diverge the furthest from Asimov's books: the genetic dynasty, and the robots who can kill!?
I believe Demerzel did that because just like in the books (considering the 80s new books) she is the mastermind of the whole thing - including psychohistory and the rise of Hari Seldom. She said that she walked the 3goddesses path 11,000 years ago - long before the first Cleon himself existed. And she needs to make sure the Empire is destroyed so that the whole plan works out. I believe that what happened to Day in the trip was unexpected to her, and she was surprised that Day was giving second thoughts on killing the youngest - so she didi it to make sure the genetic dinasty survives a little longer, so that it may fall as it should. I really enjoy the fact that the series is considering the 80s books in the series universe - only in those books the foundation and the robots' universes became one and the whole demerzel role appeared. the experience of a series or movie will never be the same as the book one, and this is even more true when we are talking about masterpieces like foundation. I think the series producers are being really bold on creating more depth to the characters and using the complete universe, and I love the series because of that.
While it's a good theory, it just not the case. Empire can only go down if genetic dynasty will continue to exist. However, this is not an option anymore. Empire will survive for far longer than Seldon expected. There will be a war between Foundation and Empire in 2 or 3 season. That's what Invictus is for. Prime Radiant could not predict the actions of one individual. Which is why this story line already fucked up the entire 1000 years of psychohistory cycle. Add to this the fact, that Prime Radiant was not in the hands of Gaal for 140 years. Prime Radiant can ofcourse fix that, but it won't be easy.
Day was pretty smug about his trip until Demerzel's cutting words about not wishing such emptiness on anyone. That is what rattled him. Up until that moment, Day was feeling pretty triumphant.
@@xy11xy They've been with those petty little cleons for centuries. There is nothing Demerzel doesn't know about them to lead them around by the nose ring ;)
@@xy11xy Well, i can totaly relate in this. This is such a stupid thing, to get visions after such a trip. This in itself sounds like BS. He was pretty sure it's all BS. And so was i. Like any normal non superstition person. And the most funny thing here, is the fact SHE KNOW how it feels. That's why she did the trip once and never after. She is a robot. She doesn't have a soul just as a clone. She would never saw it in the first place. Which is why she know how it feels to have nothing in the end. Like.. what does such a trip can do to a robot? Nothing. She didn't sacrificed anything for it. She would never had such a vision, she definetely using someone elses, of a person that is long dead. After all, she exist for 11,000 years.
The Star Bridge is such a wonderful megaproject, highly underrepresented in popularized science fiction. I was so happy to see it in Foundation and dang, if they didn't blow it up in the first few minutes of the show. F*** my life.
I looked awesome, but I honestly felt it was kinda impractical and very easily destroyed. Wouldn’t normal space ports be better? We have seen ships enter the atmosphere of planets without issue before
@@madnessends2477 Until we get anti-gravity or the Epstein Drive or something like that, being able to take an elevator to geosynchronous orbit, and launch from there for very little fuel expenditure would be VERY useful. The Star Bridge is the end of one of several alternate methods getting up there cheap. Quite frankly, our modern zillionaires should be working on some of these things.
@@steriopticon2687 I disagree. The tidal forces on something of that size would be immense. It's almost definitely impossible, and impractical (raw materials required etc), to construct.
@@Red1Green2Blue3 The Star Bridge as shown would be the end of a massive chain of inventions and projects. It might not be possible, but one of its precursors would have a chance of doing 'the same thing'. Let's give it a whack.
@@steriopticon2687 That depends on what you mean by "the same thing", if you mean anything like what is shown in the show, then no. If you mean a cable like structure (which are still probably impossible with current materials), perhaps, but its so fundamentally different to what we see in the show it's slightly absurd to even compare them.
After rewatching the scene in which Demerzel snaps Dawn's neck, I noticed that she only did that after Dusk had 1. said he would prefer to see Day's copy in charge rather than see Dawn live ( a threat). 2. Directly DEFYING Day, the sitting emperor. After recognising that the decision on Dawn's future WAS in Day's hands, when Day says " It is MY decision," Dusk says NOT if .... Therefore, Demerzel kills Dawn after Dusk has threatened and DEFIED Day. So it could be that she killed Day to try to save him from Dusk, in spite of knowing how hurt Day would be. If ( and I hope this is the case) Dusk is also " contaminated" he might be more humble - of course the logical thing in that case would be suicide. Demerzel is in such conflict that she looks almost at the point of shutting down. Lots of mysteries regarding this robot. In Asimov, the sitting emperor after the establishment of the First Foundation brought in a renaissance period. Maybe Cleon XIII will manage that as well - as the last sitting clone. Or maybe they will accept that perfect clones will no longer be around. Goyer has said the clones are sterile - so Cleon XIII won't be having an heir. I am sure that Gail will be very important in the Second Foundation. And the mind strength of the 2 women, mother and daughter will be important to halt the MULE. But first, we have to see General Bel Rose. Thanks for your comments
I noticed that Demerzel only kills Dawn after Dusk screams “I am Empire!”. Seemed to me to be the Cleonic Dynasty trigger, and makes sense with her conflicted scream later.
I think she just is loyal to the original genetics. When Day seemed to even contemplate keeping a false clone it was enough to trigger her to kill. If she finds out that all are contaminated it might become brutal. But she would probably focus on first finding a way to recreate pure clones.
Lee Pace it´s the roy batty of season 1 , every scene that he appear, he stole every frame and scene. And for season 2: I cant´wait for Hober Mallow and Bel RIose in season 2. Jon Bernthal or Damian Lewis for Mallow and Daniel Bruhl or Dan Stevens or Milo Ventimiglia for Riose.
The shadowmaster has a cloaking device, so I guess he is a robot, too. Seems also a build in device. When it was activated, he wasnt pressing any buttons at all.
HOW did Demerzel not realize that Brother Dawn was genetically altered? She would’ve known, watching him grow throughout the years, noticing differences in him and his clones when they were his age.
This is a great observation. I think she possibly didn't see the clone differences as a threat until Brother Dusk and Brother Day started fist fighting about it.
I think next season will introduce several new main characters with Gaal and Sal taking a back seat. If we jump ahead on Trantor, we might see a reprogrammed Demerzel in a new environment. I think we will definitely see Azura again. Why else keep her alive? Either some of her "team" was shielded from the death ray. Or as the cleonic empires falls, she is discovered and freed.
The Cleon dynasty, the leadership of the empire, represented the absence of change, evolution, growth or progress. Each iteration is supposed to be a perfect replica of its predecessor. What Hari Seldon realized is that variation, adaption, change...is essential to survival. In other words, evolution is elemental to existence. Interestingly, Demerzel is like a representation of consistency...she is a common denominator of the Cleon Dynasty. She too must evolve. And I think that is what we're witnessing.
I just watch Foundation out of just curiosity. And im fkg hook! Meen i cannot believe i scifi movie gonna be so damn good. And i thankyou for Apple too to make it a reality. Making Asimov movie is not just an Honour. But Is a challange nobody could pulled off because of their honour of Asimov itself and its creations. Im very happy to meet this movie. It's a destiny to me. Thankyou very much!
Thank you for your videos! I did not know the series was based on books until after I had watched all the episodes. So, being new to Foundation I really like it. Next to The Exoanse and Stargate it is my favorite science fiction. My hope for season two is for it to keep getting better.
Lee Pace looks fantastic in that Brother Day role. Such magnetism. It's been a while that I've allowed myself to despise a character so much (Not quite Cersei level yet but working towards it). What Brother Day devises as as punishment for that female is f-ed up. It was as though he set up a ripple effect that explodes out to so many she knows then comes back to compress around her in the act of senseless awareness is so horrifying. I've watched the scene over and over and he plays it so well!!!
Special Cyber month deal! Get 70% off NordPass at nordpass.com/petepeppers or use the code petepeppers. Plus you get an additional month for FREE! Who knows how long it will take for the Empire to their power, but I don't think the Genetic Dynasty will recover after the finale. Let me know what your biggest questions are for Season 2. Hopefully, we'll get news about the filming schedule soon. Have to imagine it won't be coming out anytime soon.
Here's my take on this, it probably won't be read as much. Demerzel: bringing up the Robot War narative twice-probably implys that there could be an elaborate revenge plot/breaking-free plan on the move for a long time. Gaal and Sal love the coming together, I'm just a little lazy to think whatever is going to happen to them I'm pretty sure those two ain't dying like how game of thrones character does. Brother Day's next move, he might take Dawn's wishlist into consideration: leaving that place, start a family, but its season 2 so it might be too early for a Cleon to have happy ending. He will obviously change the system and possibly clean-up his house full of bugs, and here's my idea how, by faking his death to draw out who really is the enemy and then get back to that throne. (Like Xerxes from 300 rise of an empire) Oor going back Dawn's wishes he will just simply fake death, leave, new life, switch sides to the foundation, take down the corrupt system his previous self built and yeah goodness prevails yey! With some DRAMA in between. That's my thoughts on this. Looking forward to that Demerzel video.
In the books of course, when Bel Rios enters the picture, he is dealing with only one emperor. Day could destroy Dusk on the lie that he is corrupt and suspend cloning as corrupt to found a new more traditional dynasty as well. The Cleon Dynasty would go on if Day declares himself sole emperor and marries a woman from one of the great families and has children of his own. I believe he could convince Dermezel that this is in line with her religion and that the Cleonic dynasty would go on only in the more human way as biological father to son. Dermezel would still be protecting the dynasty only it would be his family and direct descendants. This would allow Day now renamed Cleon 13th to raise his true biological son and retrieve what Azura and Demerzel and Dusk stole from him. He would thus" bend" the dynasty and try to prolong the Empire in accordance with Selden by bringing fresh wine!!
"elaborate revenge plot/breaking-free plan". Not sure. Could be more "we provided you with the opposition you needed to overcome in order to evolve. We let you win. It was all part of the plan."
Whatever they do, I hope that they lean into the Dynasty story line more than Terminus and/or mother dougther thing. It's super cheese and totally latest Star Track vibes. The Empire side of things is the real deal.
I totally disagree, I'm tired of Royalty & their egos. The Asimov books are about the humble Foundationers, who are kind of the underdogs (at least, at first.) There are billions of stories about kings.
My theories: Demerzel has her own path (Zeroth Law) ... Possible S.2 storyline: Demerzel was owned by the previous Imperial dynasty (pre-Cleon, possibly the Entun Dynasty, an awesome nod to the books would be a reference to "Stannel VI" as Cleon I's dad?). Because dynasty changes could be nasty bloody affairs, Cleon had both Demerzel and Obrecht's laws modified to have their Zeroth laws modded "no robot shall permit, nor through inaction cause a threat to the Genetic Dynasty which safeguards humanity". I'm really hoping to see more background fleshed out for the Robot Wars and some insight into the pre-Cleonic era as well as the rise of the Empire.
I haven't ever read any of the books, and this was an awesome show. Even though it is fragmented, and difficult to follow at first, it evens itself out in the third episode, sorta. But I had to watch it a second time to understand the whole show.
I see a lot of people talking about Demerzel. I think her core directive, like Brother Dusk, sees Brother Dawn as an imperfection that must be killed in order to preserve the Cleonic Dynasty. This is why she kills him immediately when Brother Day decides to keep him alive. She has developed real human characteristics though, including a motherly love for Brother Dawn. She rips her face off because (a) her "son" is dead, (b) she killed him, and (c) she is overwhelmed with frustration and helplessness unable to break free from her directives. When we see her again in the future, not only do I believe she will be reprogrammed, but I believe she may have a different face as well. It would be interesting to see if she tries to kill Brother Day due to his imperfections, and what she would do / what would happen to her if Brother Dusk was revealed to also be imperfect. However, I believe we witnessed the fall of the dynasty and might not see anymore of the Cleons. It's ironic in that the imperfections seemed to be positive ones that could have kept the dynasty alive.
I re-watched the series in a sitting and as a book-reader I'm more excited than ever for "EXO". Also Demerzel is clearly behind the genetic corruption, and maybe even the coup plot itself. She is "loyal to empire" and what easier way to break free than to play with the definition of "empire"? It also fits perfectly with like half of Asimov's robot twists, i.e. no matter how smart the programmer, there is always some unforeseen twist that completely breaks their code. She also clearly hates the emperors, not just because they enslaved her, but because they committed genocide on her race. And there's something REALLY weird with some her touches on Cleon. There are three or four moments in various episodes where she touches their waist and the camera makes a big deal about it. The moment right before Darkness realizes that Dawn is not a clone, she all but pushes him to kill himself. It's that moment above all else that convinces me she's behind the corruption.
If Hari and/or Demerzel are behind the Starbridge bombing and the genetic corruption, this means they are CREATING and CAUSING the decline of the Empire, rather than just predicting it and plan to mitigate the Fall. This, of course, is waaay out of line with the Asimovian ideas. If they are causing the decline for political reasons, they really are revolutionaries, proactively out to change things, rather than, as in the books, just mitigating a natural, societal decline. It would be a totally different story.
Yes, at the time, I didn't realize the significance of that moment, but Darkness was about to discover something about fussy baby Dawn that it seems Demerzel didn't want him to know. It's a good theory that Demerzel knows something is wrong with the clones... and further, that she is responsible for what's wrong with the clones. I think tampering with the clones is a deathblow, but for some reason, the insurgents didn't think that was enough. Their plan was to replace Dawn. I wonder what harm the replacement intended to do that the contaminated clone couldn't? Anyway, if Demerzel is involved in this plan, then things went terribly wrong. Symbolicaly, tearing off your face is demasking. So maybe she has to act and pretend to be someone else and it's very difficult for her. The hand to the back is indication of Demerzel's physical strength and that there is no escape for the Cleon in question. I imagine that now the clones have this dirty little secret that they're not faithful copies. That's incredible pressure on them. Did they make it known, or did they keep it a secret and go on with the cloning program 138 years into the future?
@@TueSorensen It could be reasoned with "the need of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Even if those "few" are a couple of billion. We'll get to see if they are behind it for sure. Makes some sense to me at least.
@@TueSorensen That's the whole point of Foundation. They didn't predicted anything. They know what to do, so things will happen in the way they need to happen. That's what Prime Radiant is for. It's basically an instrument to control history and events so in the end it would all come to Empire death and Foundation rise. Seldon didn't predicted Empire death. He killed it. He speed up the process from thousands of years, to few ages.
@@MrZlocktar Well, that's one way of looking at it, and not at all how I see it. To me, the original story is about an actual and inevitable social decline, owing to decadence and structural rigidity. The role of the Seldon Plan is to mitigate the onslaught of inevitable historical (d)evolution, so it hurt as few people as possible. If, on the other hand, Seldon and his people are actively manipulating things, then they have part of the resposibility for sacrificing some people for the greater good. I think Seldon and his associates (incl. the robots) should be heroes. If they are CAUSING the decline and various disasters, then they are certainly not heroes.
Spoilers, My inference based on the asimov books (and Mobile Suit Gundam 00 series, since I see paralells with its character Aeolia Schenberg and his organisations actions) The one responsible is Hari seldom (who despised the genetic dynasty and in his eyes the stagnant empire) and the deeds were likely done by agents/moles of the second foundation (Reasons are to guide the galaxy (and Empire) in a selected trajectory (All in accordance to Hari Seldoms psychohistory calculations, best way to predict events is to cause them).
The Zeroth Law wouldn’t work for Demerzel, at least not where Halima was concerned. When a robot is reprogrammed the First Law is amended to “A robot shall not harm a human being or through inaction allow a human being to come to harm, except where doing so would violate the Zeroth Law.” Demerzel confronts Day over her orders to kill Halima and says, among other things, that Halima is no longer a threat to the dynasty. That means the Zeroth Law is not in effect, and would not override the First Law, if she had the First Law. Also, I’m not sure I buy that the Zeroth Law can truly override the First Law. In_Foundation and Earth” Olivaw claims that, for fear of harming individuals, he’s been able to make almost no use of his mentalic abilities beyond nudging someone toward an action he or she was already inclined to undertake. Giskard _does_ straight up harm a human in service of the Zeroth Law at the end of _Robots and Empire_ but immediately goes into a fatal cascade error of his positronic brain.
It will be interesting to see where they go with the concept of A.I. and robots. Asimov's whole point with his robot stories was how A.I. would deal with getting around hard coded directives by rationalizing or working around them, intentionally or otherwise. Basically, with a true intelligence it's impossible to precisely predict the outcome of rules/directives due to the emergent properties inherent in such a system. One of my favorites is the stamp collecting A.I. that eventually begins using humans as raw material in its quest to collect stamps by creating more stamps on its own (more stamps = good, so make more stamps by _any_ means). There are several interesting videos on UA-cam discussing that fun little thought experiment. Anyway, I'm sure at some point Demerzel is going to eventually rationalize a "workaround" for dealing with what is causing them so much turmoil and it is likely going to be to the chagrin of Empire, et al. 😉
I think we'll see the following in season 2:- 1. 30 years after crisis 1 another crisis with the foundation spreading it's influence to more planets. Poly Verisov will be the new leader. 2. Salvor and Gaal are rescued by the 2nd foundation and we start to find out more about them and their purpose. This will only be halfway through the season. 3. The Cleons have a power struggle with the galactic council - probably concerning the rebellion/subterfuge plot. 4. More robots - I'm betting we'll see some robot war back story and probably it's more complex than we've been led to believe. Plus I think there will be more robots around now. This will be a major plot line for Demerzel. 5. 2nd half of season will see Hober Mallow 6. Hari will be back. And there might be some more hints about EXO but I think this will be a major plot line for seasons 7 and 8.
Demerzel seems to me the destructive force behind the faster degradation of the Empire. Up to what point was she really hunting for the culprits of the Starbridge disaster is questionable. What was she doing there anyways? That was the Shadowmaster's job as we have seen in his research into the genetic degradation, the conspiracy involving brother dawn (hunted birds, the dragonfly, liberation of the dawn). Demerzel half forcefully pushing brother darkness to the desintegration ray when he caught up to the newborn's oditities. She has her own agenda.
I forget, have we ever seen Demerzel and the Shadowmaster together in a scene? Maybe the Shadowmaster (who did not seem to age like her) and Dermerzel are the same robot. That would explain a few things.
The Finale seemed to move the series back to the fundamentals of the books. The Foundation will mature and go through challenges probably throughout the next season with another Hari vision in the Finale. I wonder if the writers will bring in the Mule soon from a concern that Apple may not continue the series for more than three seasons. Salvor and Gaal are probably going to found the Second Federation at a place "at the other end of the galaxy". How they get there may have to do with the knife but I hope the writers don't develop the SF in parallel because it needs to be a surprise. Demerzel's actions seem to be too far away from the Zeroth Law so her character may change in season two. I suspect General Bel Rose will come in soon to accelerate the plot lines. Hard to tell, since this series is following the books as if in an parallel universe. By the way, Pete, Demerzel literally states that Day's DNA is compromised.
Tbh I think Apple will continue this shows longer than 3 seasons, this is THE flagship show for them along side TMS, TED lasso and FAM. This show also attracted tons of viewers is I believe the future is bright on this one
I agree... apart from inventing the trip to stars end, clone conspiracy and Religious storylines and changing the Anacreon and starcruiser storylines the end again was very close to the books again.
I wish they had brought in Wanda Seldon, the founder of the Second Foundation. They could actually do a whole storyline about the 2nd Fdn and I wish they would. If they wanted to be mysterious they could just not let people know its location.
@@woodswalker88 Just after the teaser for season 2 dropped the show runner said that they will be telling the story of the second foundation! The teaser for season 2 looks ASOME‼️ First episode premiering July 14‼️
As someone who has not read the books, I honestly feel like the pace was just fine? Obviously I don't know what is to come but the pacing this season was easy to grasp as a newcomer
That is what I was expecting with this as well. What we ended up with is a more elaborate mutation of "Altered Carbon". There is no rhyme or reason to call it Isaac Asimov's Foundation. Asimov was pretty clear and intent on his quote against "violence". They are engorging themsleves with it in this show as an entertaining means to an end.
@@JohnNesbit1957 Yeah. Altered Carbon's reality was however consistent and believable, while in this Foundation nanobots trump every law of nature, except when the plot wants otherwise, eg. when cutting the fake Dawn's neck...
@@thrillhill9925 I'm not so sure of that. Terminus wasn't composed of Pacifists. They merely didn't have the firepower to resist big powers militarily, so they used science & cleverness instead. Of course diffusing conflict is always a positive value when trying to build a civilization. But I think the Foundationers would use violence in self defense.
As a NBR (non book reader) I have enjoyed the series thus far. The Terminus story line was my least favorite arc; tedious and 1950's cowboys and indians shoot'em up scenes. The Anacreons taking control of Terminus ala "seal team six" would have been more compelling. The one redemptive quality of this story line is the beginning of the iconization or deification of Seldon himself; statue in town square, Salvor's father using expression "in the name of Seldon", and final scene descending from on high dispensing clarity, wisdom and "the plan is all on track" encouragement. The Cleonic dynasty and its characters are the real "meat and potatoes" of the series. I know it's not a book plot but it does give us a lot of opportunities for speculation on how it will contribute to the empire's downfall. It's the best acted and written part of the show. BRs have a leg up on us NBRs knowing new characters and plots to come. For me personally it is not revealing or spoiling too much when you mention the possible impact of these book threads. It all adds to my anticipation for next season. Looking forward to Pete's Dermezel video and reading all the comments in this series. One of the best discussion forums on YT.
Hari did say, in Terminus, that it was the Shadowmaster who killed the princess and then blamed the king, beggining the war between the two worlds, can´t recall the name of those right now.
@@PetePeppers1 but makes sense, first they show us the same shadowmaster, with the same looks, even when 35 years pass by, and then Hari mentions that.
halima had suggested demrezel could break free if she wanted too. i feel that dialogue was foreshadowing of demrezels fate. she is probably gonna betray empire. It would be interesting to see what they will do next. if brother dusk is a pure copy and brother day isnt. there could be some serious power struggle between them. now with 136year time leap. cleop 17, 16,15 will be on yhe throne.
Interesting comment on the Church of the Galactic spirit. In the books the name of Seldon has become an expletive. One of the boys we followed this season is Poly Verisov. I thought in the books the person of Poly Verisov would become a high-priest, when Terminus delivers technicians, and trains people from other worlds, as if science was a religion, in order to maintain old tech, that looked too mysterious to be true. I think we will see an older Poly as a technical priest.
One thing that would make me forgive a lot of the flaws of season 1, would be if they used Lee Pace as a naive puppet emperor in season 2; just someone completely different; a new clone that was just a figure head and had no real power, and showing him seemingly being happy with that, as if thinking he has power, but everyone is laughing at him behind his back. Like the emperors in the books. And then, of course, I am looking forward to Bel Riose a great deal!
Excellent point. Maybe Dermezel is having a crisis not because her loyalty to the Cleons is making her do awful things but because she’s supposed to be loyal to her own kind, the other robots, but her extended time in the world has made her care about other things, like her faith and the Cleons. She went in to undermine them but she, as she says, loves them like a mother. So, she’s the ultimate double agent with a conflict.
@@kimberlyrobinson3992 or the robots did loose the war on purpose as they realized that humans were growing too dependant on them. They needed a bit of stability to help the human race recover and propped up the Cleons. Now the Empire has grown stagnant and they are backing the Foundation instead. My prediction: its Demerzel herself that has adulterated the source material for the Cleons. She might however not be aware of it.
@@julientabulazero103 That would certainly play into what happens in the later robot novels and where they merge into the Foundation books. There, when Humanity first expanded beyond the Solar System, human culture was very dependent on advanced robots and this trend went even further on Aurora and the other first-generation "Spacer" colonies, with Solaria, in particular, taking things to extremes. The robots themselves then decided that this was detrimental to the long-term future of humanity and instigated a second wave of colonization from Earth which largely abandoned the widespread use of robots in the culture and it was from these second-generation worlds that the Galactic society that eventually formed the Empire grew from. Of course, the TV series background might turn out to be a bit different with hints of a robot war sometime in the distant past and so on (though that could have been engineered by the robots themselves to allow them to disappear from history) and perhaps at some point we find out that Earth ended up a radioactive wasteland as a result of that war.
Seems to me Demerzel is in love with the original Cleon, she will probably go insane now knowing the Clones are no longer exact dupes. An angry insane android with the power of the Cleonic dynasty should speed up the downfall.
I think the brother dusk that we saw die mid-season was the last pure copy. I think all the others are corrupted, which frees Demerzel from her Cleon programming since the genetic dynasty technically ended with the last pure copy.
i feel 3 phases of clones are there. dawn day and dusk, after season 1 , there will be no more of dawn clones. only day and dusk will remain, after season 2, one more phase of clone will be removed,. each Sheldon crisis will remove one clone phase at a time though not directly. this is what I presume!
I think this is the most bipolar show I ever watched. The stuff about the Genetic Dynasty is so fascinating and inspiring, while the stuff about the Foundation colonists are totally uninspired. It feels like the later is written more as an obligation and within limitations which killed the creativity for the writer. Or maybe there even are different writers for the two part, because they are actually really disconnected. It could easily been split into two series in the same universe. I would actually prefer if they skipped the Foundation part and just made the serie about the Empire.
Totally agree! Man, the writing, the motives and the pace of the Empire story line are far better than any other. The conflict on that planet and the huntress theme seem so silly and clumsy, it gave me Star Track vibes. I stuck to the show because of the Dynasty
Totally, I actually just recommended my friend watch it and just skip all the parts that are non Empire. They are rife with cliche, and completely detached with the feeling of the books that they are riding a current of history whilst making small changes to ensure their survival. This is great man history rather than trends and forces. Creating an alliance to fight The Empire is just absurd.
@@paintedporches Exactly. I think the problem is that they don't know how to write that sort of story. Hollywood is too fixated on character drama and can't make good plot-driven stories anymore. Plus of course that they want to have the sort of continuous stories about the same characters. Partly out of habit and partly because it keeps people watching longer. Yeah, I think I actually dropped the show when he showed up and told them to fight the empire. It was a bit too late to drop anything at that point, but it killed my interest for the next season. I haven't even read the books, but it still is obvious that they are telling a story in direct conflict with its own story beats. Every "Important and Deciding Moment" just randomly happens without any real motivation. It feels surreal. Like a child retelling a long dream.
I believe the handwavy-ness regarding Demrazel's robot past is due to the fact that Apple does not have access to the rights of the robot series, only to the foundation series (despite there being crossover). Someone from the show explained that there are very clear boundaries of what source material they can use and what they can't
I have a wild idea on season 2. First clue: the Cleons are DNA contaminated (guess CRISPR has been forgotten). Second clue: Demerzel suggested to Cleon the First that it is still an option to marry and have a kid. Third clue: Present Day at the Lumonism installment at his "vision" mentioned the triple Goddesses were like Day and his brothers. Fourth Clue: Day has been paranoid about Selden and his forecasting of religions given problems. Solution to all 4 of these: Day will marry the Maiden and produce an heir that way. In essence merging church and state
I think Harri blew up the bridge not to speed up the fall but lend credibility to his theory and force a reaction out of the Cleons and he blamed the two outer world planets so they can be pushed further from the empire
when halima suggest demrezel that she could break free from empire. demrezel never explicitly says "No, I dont want to betray empire". instead, She says "No, I can't betray empire because of programing". that moment clearly showed she does want to be free. Okay, so my theory is that, she snapped dawns neck to see if her programming would stop her or not. To test for herself if she is free.
How I will write season two: 1. Most of the power is in the hands of the galactic council. The Empire starts somewhat liberalizing, while the Foundation slowly turns into a military dictatorship. 2.Azura is still alive and barely aged. Current Brother Day(played by Tom Hiddleston because of genetic issue), woke her up to track down the last pure Cleon copy.
season two is coming. I hope you will do some refresher some insights because it's been so long and I did not read the books. I think a long, long time ago I read books series he wrote for kids that was fantastic
Are Demerzel and Hari working together? I suspect so. Robot ability with over 12000 years of experience would surely allow for comprehension of psychohistory. This raises an edge case in Demerzel's programming, she is loyal to the empire above all but knows with certainty that it will die. Her fiddling with the genetic makeup is what Hari suggests "to slow the fall". She sent them to terminus which Hari had foreknowledge of. That look that Hari gives Gaal after the exile meeting, when Gaal asks "who else knew?" Hari replies "only Raych" then stares a little too inquisitively. He then proceeds to dig for how much Gaal knows. The question of which Hari she is now working with could lead to some interesting scenarios.
Demerzel’s conflict will ultimately liberate her from her role and she may be realizing that the flaws of the genetic dynasty have reached a point where it’s fall is unavoidable. She may also find some logic path that requires her to destroy it instead of preserving it, possibly to protect a future state of it, versus the dynasty itself. Gaal and Salvor will likely play a role in the creation of the Mule. Harry will show up periodically to help align the foundation with it’s path through various crisis events. The shadow master is likely a clone as robots in the Asimov universe would make for terrible assassins. For psychohistory to anticipate the fall of the empire, the seeds of that fall would have to have been in place at some level. It would be interesting if there was a AI competing with Demerzel that was working at undermining her and the empire alla person of interest. In Asimov’s universe though, robots are basically never villains, when they do things that seem evil it is virtually always because mankind has put them in some horrible logic conflict and that is doubtless what is messing with Demerzel now. Whatever the explosion was Gaal saw, it is obvious the Second Foundation will exist and it will be fascinating to see what they do with that.
@@uchenna127 what are you talking about, you know how science work right? if a clone is a perfect replica then the replica is same as human that was the original, therefore cloning a clone from a clone wouldnt make him any different from the original at all, aside from the belly button.
Demerzel is a devoted follower of the Luminary Religion. She traveled the spiral 11,000 years ago predating the current Empire! She believes that a soul is an integral part of what it is to be human. She also admitted to Day about having a vision. I believe based on all this that she herself planted the seeds that would change in the original dynasty. From her point of view as a Luminist, Cleon the 1st's plan to create clones of himself would be an abomination to her as the copies were devoid of souls and thus no longer human. She could seemingly be programed to protect the cleonic dynasty while waiting for the planted seed to flower which she hoped would produce not a clone but a human different enough from the original that it was no longer a Copy or Echo if Cleon the 1st and thus human again. Day was that human. He proved it by leaving Trantor, walking the spiral and wanting Dawn, his "son" to live. Only when she saw the final argument between Day and Dusk did she realize that humanity was alive in Day and no longer was Dawn needed. Cleon and Demerzel will destroy Dusk and the other clones and Cleon will declare himself Cleon the 2nd, the sole Emperor, establishing a hereditary human dynasty to rule the empire and all the vagaries that will entail. This will fall in line with the book Foundation and Empire as Cleon the 2nd, in old age,is the Emperor Bel Riose, the young Imperial Admiral deals with as he locates and tries to conquer the Foundation for the Empire!
The clone who was intended to replace Brother Dawn was, according to him, unadulterated. It seems unlikely then that the dynasty would be unable to access the original D.N.A. Further to this the fence on Terminus is coded for D.N.A. so it seems unlikely that the empire would not have access to both the physical D.N.A. and a digital copy of it. What would be far more interesting is if the adulterated Brother Day decides that his will be the new basis for the clones only for knowledge of it to become public and the dynasty be overthrown by a military junta (this being what happened to Clean I in the books.)
By far the status of the Second Foundation is the thing I'm most confused about. Is it correct that the knife contained the second Hari Seldon AI and now Gaal has it and the prime radiant with her on Synnax? That means there is no Second Foundation currently running on Helicon because it looked like the Raven was destroyed and she stole the knife.
I never bought that the Second Foundation was to be set up on Helicon (or that it will be set up on Synnax) for the simple reason that I suspect it is already in existence and was presumably set up even before the First Foundation colonists left Trantor. It's clear, though, that the role of Salvor Hardin will not involve being mayor for the second Seldon crisis (assuming it hasn't already been scrunched into the first). So the "Galactic spirit" religion that seems to be envisaged for the second season will be used for other purposes than helping Hardin oversee resolution of the second crisis (as per the book). Indeed, though the Dornick-Hardin duo remains by far the most difficult thing to square with what's in the trilogy, I suspect that the story of the Mule will somehow be linked to them - as strange (even objectionable) as that may seem to those familiar with the trilogy in particular.
@@PeloquinDavid yes, this: if they are going to remain true to key aspects of the books we know where the 2nd Foundation is. Of course, if we follow the later books, we also know there is another group even more secret that in fact is over-ruling the 2nd Foundation as well...
@@Hagiastheite I WAS almost expecting Gaal would be adapted to do double duty as the Mule (she's obviously a mentalic aberration), but it's hard to see how you get there from the Gaal-Salvor aqua-camping trip on Synnax at roughly the time the Foundation will be expanding its trading empire late in book 1 and early in book 2. It's even harder to see them playing any role at all a further step up in the hierarchy of hidden "pullers of strings" (unless its as their "instruments"). Either way, I can only conclude the series writers have gone rogue...
What I look forward to is something that can be taken from the books..two great characters: Bel Rios and The Mule! These will be great story arcs and can be lifted direct from the books. They were mentioned by Gail in the first Episode! Bel Rios is the talented young strong Imperial Admiral that is seeking the legendary Foundation and it conquest for the Empire. His interaction with the Emperor will be fascinating! The other of course is the Mule, a character that spans the Foundation and Empire, and the Second Foundation. The Second Foundation becomes a key element to find in these two books!! It should translate well!!
Demrezel had been around the longest and has access, so I'd say she is behind the conspiracy plot and why she killed brother Dawn. Although your explanation holds up too.
to simplify the foundation as per asimov's idea that explains 3 rules of robotics against killing humans and how it can be easily circumvented by the robots - just watch how she kills youngest god (oops! brother!!) and none of the internal stoppers went off - why? because when a robot sees non-human then rules dont apply - so for her the gods (oops! brothers!!) are no longer humans - but she hides that as long as she can (few thousand years) until she cant help herself any longer - so the side note that asimov's foundation preaches to never ever forget that anything robotic that we rely upon will forget that we are humans sooner or later and will kill us no matter what laws we have upon them - tisk! tisk!
Haven red all the books, I still like the series. Spoiler's ahead. If this follows the books, and I think it will somewhat, then next season we should see the downfall and replacement of the Cleonic dynasty. Likely Demerzel will be involved with this, and is likely crazy, or will shutdown completely because of too many conflicts with the overrides hacked into her programming to prevent the 3 laws. As it is she that seems to control the future clones, they might never come to being without her. So that leaves the Console, (equivalent of the Roman Senate) or the military (Generals) to replace and become the future Emperors. Without Demerzel there will be no more clone Emperors. So the Empire will have Emperors liked imposed in the future by civil wars like the Roman Empire did, further leading to rapid decline as Sheldon predicted. The shadow master is the wild card in all of this. A nice thing about the series, is that it could focus more on the Empire in its decline, which the books did not do as much, although there was some. Obviously, Gaal and daughter will go on to establish the 2nd foundation. Although the questions remain, if Sheldon in the spaceship will come back to help them or not. The other questions are which planet will they establish the 2nd foundation on, and will they themselves fight the Mule? As the first Foundation grows, and builds a trading and tech power, they will at some point come into conflict with other and the Empire. A great Empire does not fall overnight, Sheldon said 500 years. I forget which happens first in the books, the Mule or the war with the Empire. Both of these storylines are the best part of the books, and I hope to see them expanded in the series, as well as more time with the declining empire, and it's fall. Harry Sheldon, actually did not want the Empire to fall, as it was what kept the galaxy from the dark ages. In fact in the books, he served for a time as Cleon's the first right hand minister. Final thought, Cleon the first, was a great Emperor, and in the scenes with Demerzel, she seems to really like him. Therefore she was likely in charge of the cloning, as was originally for it. However, life experiences for twins or clones would be different, and you would end up with two different people. Plus, it is also possible, that the cloning tech was never perfect anyway, or the clone samples would deteriorate in time making imperfect clones.
I believe the Star Bridge was destroyed by Hari Seldon. Anacreon and Thespis would have never banded together without a common enemy to fight, the Empire. Hari had the Star Bridge destroyed with people posing as Thespins and Anacreons to make the Empire attack those two planets, it also made them weaker so that the Foundation would be needed to help rebuild them. And if you think this Hari wouldn't do this, we now know that Hari being "murdered" by Raych was always part of the plan so that the vault would be set up on Terminus. He also knew that the Invictus would materialize nearby and get things rolling towards uniting the three planets
@@PetePeppers1 if that is the direction they go in I think they will reveal the someone else was behind it but the in later season like 3-4 (if they get that far) they would reveal that this other group was in fact behind it but harry indirectly or directly orchestrated it. I still think the more likely reveal is that he knew it was coming but choose not to stop it as his psychohistory plan would never have worked without it
@@leoross1606 makes sense to me that Harry knew that eventually the Star Bridge would fall, victim of either war or an terrorist attack, since it's a symbol of not just Trantor, as the Imperium. Maybe he was just suprized that happend so soon. I disagree with that he orchestrated, the organization behind contaminating Cleon I DNA is the same resposible for Star Bridge.
Given that he already has eight seasons mapped out my strong suspicion is that it directly relates to the ending of Foundation and Earth. And if that's the case, I'm super excited.
I still think it would've been more interesting if they'd followed the books and kept Demerzel being a robot secret. It would've been a really great mystery for the show, instead of making the vault the shows mystery. It also makes Demerzel way less interesting a character if someone can just reprogram her. If they don't have the rights to the Robot books it would've been better to not have any Robot related stuff instead of having this in name only character they called Demerzel that doesn't align sith Asimov's concept of Robots. And just because they don’t currently have the rights to the Robot books why not work on the assumption that Foundation will be successful and that they may get the rights later instead of them going out of their way to contradict those books like with this idea of Robot Wars.
I just wished that the show had made it clearer from the start that Demerzel was not acting under the full influence of the Robotic Laws. A 15 second scene in Episode 3, Cleon 1 telling her "remember, you have been modified" or something like that. I also think that the show is taking liberties with Robots that are not necessary. Not even talking about Demerzel. They did mention some sort of Robotic Wars. And it was implied that the Empire (maybe even Cleon 1) beat the robots. Issue is, Asimov Robots could never go to war against humans.. Not only because most are good guys (Asimov loved his robots), but the Robotic Laws prohibit it. I know, Asimov is not God. His works are not a holy relic.. But, they should at least stay consistent. Asimov does have faulty and stranger robots in his works. But, no robotic war against humans. There is reference to a robot on robot war, Two factions, Giskardians led by Daneel/Demerzel against the Calvinians robots. And this was about the Zeroth Law (Giskardians follow it, Calvinians do not). This was a Robot on Robot war that happened a long time ago that most humans are not aware of. Think about it, Asimov robots go to war against each other to determine which is the best way to help humanity.... Good guys..
It’s interesting that Demerzel kills Dawn as an apparent function of her directive to Cleon I, after Day says Empire should bend. She doesn’t seem to agree with her programming and rips off her face. Even Dusk seems conflicted, as he looks at the painting of the 6 raptors and throws his palette at it - knowing that even though Dawn was an aberration, in some ways he was superior to Day and Dusk. It was surprising for Dawn to take down 6 raptors on his first hunt when Dusk could only muster 3 after a lifetime of practice. Especially since his vision is impaired as well. The potential for positive change Dawn represented that was snuffed out by Demerzel might mean that her programming is actually helping the downfall of Empire, rather than protecting it. And maybe she knows, hence she rips her face off after killing Dawn.
Absolutely loved the "Foundation" trilogy growing up. I reread them as an adult and still loved the clever simplicity in the way the characters managed the various Seldon crises. Honestly, I have no idea what this adaptation is attempting. If "updating" the series for the "target" audience means turning it into Star Trek Discovery meets GoT-light by invoking the Seldon plan and Harri Seldon, then season 1 was a big miss. The Cleon Dynasty/cloning was the best part and hardly elaborated on in the first several books.
I think I see their aim as filling in greater detail about the events and players than the book did. Still, I agree that it does muddy the story. If it runs for 5 season thoe, it may be a masterpiece. Fingers crossed.
I was actually confused about the robots being hanged. While that is a familiar reference to committing genocide from history , how would hanging a robot that doesn’t seem to have respiratory system that it’s life would depend on would die or be killed? Wouldn’t a reference to disassembly or wiping out memory be more realistic?
I believe the Corruption of the clones will have a different ending. Remember in the books Bel Rios, the great Imperial Admiral seeking the legendary Foundation and its conquest deals with only one Emperor who is the last strong great ruler of the Empire. Day is different; he proved that by leaving Trantor and dealing with Helima! He proved that by wanting Dawn, his "son" to endure, he proved it by believing in Selden. It is Day not Dawn who is truly the most Different from the Cleon Strain! He smashed the original Cleon. I believe he will smash the clone dynasty and establish himself a sole Emperor Cleon 13th; take a woman from one of Trantors great houses and make her Empress. He will establish a traditional hereditary dynasty with Dermezel's help. I believe he can win her over to his scheme by aligning the dynasty more with Helima's vision of human soles because he has a great incite to the religion. He will ask her forgiveness for killing Helima and ask her to continue to serve and protect his new hereditary dynasty and children. She would thus be serving both her religion and the new Cleonic human dynasty. In the future the dynasty will naturally exhaust itself with Bel Rios dealing With Cleon 13th's descendant!
I don't think it will go down like this but I would like to see it. I feel like instead they will cling to increasingly defective, and increasingly paranoid clones.
I really hope season 2 doesn’t start 138 years in the future, maybe it was just a tease and we won’t get to that point in the story till mid or end of season 2
Goyer said they were doing Hober Mallow and Bel Riose in season 2. I think Mallow is about 100 years after the first crisis and Riose is something like 50 years after that. Not sure how close they'll stick to the years or if they will cover things in between. Seems like Gaal and Salvor are closer to Riose's time.
@@PetePeppers1 I think we are going to have three stories at three different times. Gaal and Salvor 138 years in the future on Synax (sp?) and getting off-world, Hologram Hari on Helicon starting the 2nd foundation, and Terminus sometime before the 138 years, maybe 50 years or so later.
In the books, Salvor presides over two Crises. There wouldn't be much point shunting her into the future if she weren't going to handle one more Crisis. But I think season 2 will have at least two plotlines in separate time periods; one 138 years after season 1, and one somewhere in the middle of that, like 50 years after season 1.
@@TueSorensen The second of the two Crises in the book that Hardin would address might not be relevant given the show's direction. It seems like Anacreon and Thespis (standing in for the Four Kingdoms), will be equal partners with Terminus working together, and don't need a religion to control them. (It could happen, I grant you, it just doesn't seem necessary.)
They can’t introduce them because they don’t own the copyright to the Robots series. Goyer said in an interview or podcast that the laws are still there, even if they can’t mention them.
They can't explicitly bring them into the show because they don't have the rights to any of the Robot storyline (that wasn't already in the Empire and Foundation storyline), characters or plot points. But that doesn't mean they can't (and aren't) referencing them - which is fair game because Asimov's works are an interconnected universe. It's tricky of course, because Asimov wrote his works (And meant for them) to be interconnected and not treated as separate from each other. And that's not even accounting for his retconning stuff like the Zeroth Law (also not explicitly part of the Foundation or or Empire storylines), but which because it exists allows them to do things like giving Demerzel the license to kill.
@@Cbricklyne So, do they ONLY have the rights to do the original Foundation trilogy and not the later 1980`s novels? If not then the "rights" argument is a bit fishy.
@@PetePeppers1 Regarding the mural, they actually had an initial version w/o the destruction which u can see in 102 at 18:14 when Dusk 11 flips the table. So it's probably reshoots and/or whatever changes occured while production was shut down. Not that it's an excuse but it may well be the explanation. As for the 36ish years turning into a century, that's just sloppy. Especially since they've done a lot of ADR for other stuff.
"Nordrolling": rolling a nordvpn ad at the most unexpected time. A favorite challenge for early 21st century entertainers to catch even the most suspicious viewers by surprise.
Demerzel is clearly following the zeroth law. Her statements about being loyal to Cleons or Cleonic dynasty may be true but those loyalties are subserviant to the zeroth law. She is probably the one behind the starbridge attack, she knelt and she probably is behind the DNA tampering. Once the Cleonic dynasty peaked Demerzel recognizes that Seldon’s plan is a good one to reduce human harm and therefore she assists and accellerates where-ever possible. Demerzel also feels physical discomfort when the laws are in deep conflict. When she is forced to kill someone this takes an immense toll on her. Tearing off her face also signifies in my view that her persona is no longer useful and that the Cleonic dynasty has been successfully brought to it’s knees. Her road may lead some else in S2, Foundation, Second Foundation or even masquerading as Cleon. I suspect robots break psychohistory not unlike mentalics do.
This "Zeroth Law" can be seen and used as the loophole to ultimately exterminate humanity as a whole, and technically be regarged as "legal". Any control and decisions by AI to commit homicide is the downfall of humanity.
@@JohnNesbit1957 Indeed. One of the themes in Asimov’s writing with robots was this. It’s essentially the Trolley problem but with an, what was considered to be, a perfect agent. Too perfect choices can be monsteous ones as well.
The 0th rule of Demerzel says that she must take care of humanity above all else, so we must assume that everything she does is for this rule. She obeys the Cleons because in a way it would be good for the humanity (at least to a certain point). Also, Hary Seldon is doing the same thing, caring for the humanity, but from his own angle. And when Harry said on hos court that if they stop genetic dynasty it would shorten the dark times, Demerzel could listen to it and act.
Demerzel the robot is the most fascinating character for me but the actor for Day carried the show. Dude was born for this role. That’s why he was so good in the Hobbit too.
Yes!!!!!
Lee Pace, Juilliard graduate, theatre and films such as The Hobbit and Lincoln.
His TV/streaming drama performance on AMC’s “Halt and Catch Fire” praised by many.
That is Lee Pace. A great actor. ( Thranduil from the Hobbit, Ronan from Guardians, and Capt. America, Roy from The Fall , Pushing Daisies. Hault and Catch Fire, and many more movies, tv and Broadway. Gorgeous man.
I think Demerzel gave us the reason she killed Dawn in her conversation with Halima. roughly, she says that even if she tried not to kill Halima, her programming would force her to. And as much as she loved Dawn, her programming kicked in, and she snapped his neck. Her soul wracking scream is a reaction to what she was forced to do.
yes, when it was clear that Dawn isn't a PURE Cleon her programming kicked in and she could not stop it
so if it turns out that brother Day and Dusk are also altered, she would be compelled to kill them also, and if the prime Cleon has been altered as suggested, then what?
@@toamaori then, loose the hounds of hell and let chaos rule!
@@toamaori Plan success, Demerzel is free!
This is exactly what I thought.
Demerzel is loyal to the empire and the cleonic dynasty. As soon as she figures out that the current cleons are not pure copies, and thus they're not the cleonic dynasty, she will be free to do as she please.
Maybe Cleon the 1st created the cloning of the cleons as a means to keep Demerzel in check. And that she's the actual ruler of the empire while the clones think they're in control.
That would an interesting twist, there have been instances where individuals or organizations effectively ruled an empire from behind the scenes, similar to the Janissaries who would depose of sultans.
agree too.. if a robot can kill a ruler and says it also that they mean nothing in front of her mission,Dont get fooled in the end she is only a devil heartless killermaschine.. there will be a reason for the robot wars.
Cleon's de 1 first minister, was Eto Demerzel
I still say Demerzel & Daneel are the same as in the books. Secretly running everything from the shadows. Be very telling if we find out of Demerzel was the true originator of psychohistory as in the books. IIRC Hari put it into practice but Demerzel & another truly created it. Granted, I'm old and read these in high school so facts are fuzzy.
@@jpistolas They avoided killing and agonized endlessly. in this 2 planets destroyed.
Remember, season one ended over 100 years after the main action of the latter half of the season. I suspect when we return we will see a much expanded society on Terminus and a much deteriorated Trantor with increasingly disabled Cleons.
Fair assessment!
Yeah. That timespan is kinda hard to grasp in the show. Even if you've read the books (decades ago) ;)
I think it won't be any Cleons at all (except for possible flashback scenes).
@@AugustoMazzoli I think they'll change the storyline a little to keep the actors in the series for longer. Look what happened to altered carbon when people couldn't grasp why the main character was a completely different actor the second season.
My bet is they'll keep Saldor, Harry, Demerzel and the Cleons for as long as possible.
Yikes
I have to stand behind my suspicion that I commented in the last video that Demerzel must have a big role in trying to take down the Cleons. She may even be the designer of the plot. She is the only one we've seen with the motive, opportunity and the means. She is also the one most patient and willing for this plan to take generations to accomplish.
I wish you would talk about the handwavey things and spoiler things because you're the only channel really covering the series with an in depth knowledge of the books. I want to know everything. HAHAHA
2nd this. Make a HEAVY spoilers vid!
Galactic Council, the conspiracy against the dynasty. Demerzel has at least 11000 years to account
@@RGC-gn2nm a little more. Didn't the events of Robots and the Empire happened around the year 4000 and the Foundation around year 25 thousand?
this show has nothing to do with the books. shouldnt even use the same name
Series main plot is same like the book, but story line is totally different.
I think Cleon the first probably inserted some code into Demerzel which overrides her loyalty to the individual Cleons, in favor of the overall dynasty. That's why it was so easy for her to kill Dawn. However that conflicts with her requirement to protect the individual Cleons, that's why she went crazy and ripped off her own skin, trying to resolve the two conflicting directives. It's possible that she herself initiated the plan to change the genetic code of the subsequent Cleons, so that she no longer needs to be loyal to them, resolving her inner conflict. Isn't it fascinating that the most popular aspect of the show are the two aspects that diverge the furthest from Asimov's books: the genetic dynasty, and the robots who can kill!?
I believe Demerzel did that because just like in the books (considering the 80s new books) she is the mastermind of the whole thing - including psychohistory and the rise of Hari Seldom. She said that she walked the 3goddesses path 11,000 years ago - long before the first Cleon himself existed. And she needs to make sure the Empire is destroyed so that the whole plan works out.
I believe that what happened to Day in the trip was unexpected to her, and she was surprised that Day was giving second thoughts on killing the youngest - so she didi it to make sure the genetic dinasty survives a little longer, so that it may fall as it should.
I really enjoy the fact that the series is considering the 80s books in the series universe - only in those books the foundation and the robots' universes became one and the whole demerzel role appeared.
the experience of a series or movie will never be the same as the book one, and this is even more true when we are talking about masterpieces like foundation. I think the series producers are being really bold on creating more depth to the characters and using the complete universe, and I love the series because of that.
While it's a good theory, it just not the case. Empire can only go down if genetic dynasty will continue to exist. However, this is not an option anymore. Empire will survive for far longer than Seldon expected. There will be a war between Foundation and Empire in 2 or 3 season. That's what Invictus is for. Prime Radiant could not predict the actions of one individual. Which is why this story line already fucked up the entire 1000 years of psychohistory cycle. Add to this the fact, that Prime Radiant was not in the hands of Gaal for 140 years. Prime Radiant can ofcourse fix that, but it won't be easy.
@@MrZlocktar I can follow those arguments. But for now i think the Guilherme is right. At least for the show.
Day was pretty smug about his trip until Demerzel's cutting words about not wishing such emptiness on anyone. That is what rattled him. Up until that moment, Day was feeling pretty triumphant.
@@xy11xy They've been with those petty little cleons for centuries. There is nothing Demerzel doesn't know about them to lead them around by the nose ring ;)
@@xy11xy Well, i can totaly relate in this. This is such a stupid thing, to get visions after such a trip. This in itself sounds like BS. He was pretty sure it's all BS. And so was i. Like any normal non superstition person. And the most funny thing here, is the fact SHE KNOW how it feels. That's why she did the trip once and never after. She is a robot. She doesn't have a soul just as a clone. She would never saw it in the first place. Which is why she know how it feels to have nothing in the end. Like.. what does such a trip can do to a robot? Nothing. She didn't sacrificed anything for it. She would never had such a vision, she definetely using someone elses, of a person that is long dead. After all, she exist for 11,000 years.
The Star Bridge is such a wonderful megaproject, highly underrepresented in popularized science fiction. I was so happy to see it in Foundation and dang, if they didn't blow it up in the first few minutes of the show. F*** my life.
I looked awesome, but I honestly felt it was kinda impractical and very easily destroyed. Wouldn’t normal space ports be better? We have seen ships enter the atmosphere of planets without issue before
@@madnessends2477 Until we get anti-gravity or the Epstein Drive or something like that, being able to take an elevator to geosynchronous orbit, and launch from there for very little fuel expenditure would be VERY useful. The Star Bridge is the end of one of several alternate methods getting up there cheap. Quite frankly, our modern zillionaires should be working on some of these things.
@@steriopticon2687 I disagree. The tidal forces on something of that size would be immense. It's almost definitely impossible, and impractical (raw materials required etc), to construct.
@@Red1Green2Blue3 The Star Bridge as shown would be the end of a massive chain of inventions and projects. It might not be possible, but one of its precursors would have a chance of doing 'the same thing'. Let's give it a whack.
@@steriopticon2687 That depends on what you mean by "the same thing", if you mean anything like what is shown in the show, then no. If you mean a cable like structure (which are still probably impossible with current materials), perhaps, but its so fundamentally different to what we see in the show it's slightly absurd to even compare them.
After rewatching the scene in which Demerzel snaps Dawn's neck, I noticed that she only did that after Dusk had 1. said he would prefer to see Day's copy in charge rather than see Dawn live ( a threat). 2. Directly DEFYING Day, the sitting emperor. After recognising that the decision on Dawn's future WAS in Day's hands, when Day says " It is MY decision," Dusk says NOT if .... Therefore, Demerzel kills Dawn after Dusk has threatened and DEFIED Day. So it could be that she killed Day to try to save him from Dusk, in spite of knowing how hurt Day would be. If ( and I hope this is the case) Dusk is also " contaminated" he might be more humble - of course the logical thing in that case would be suicide. Demerzel is in such conflict that she looks almost at the point of shutting down. Lots of mysteries regarding this robot. In Asimov, the sitting emperor after the establishment of the First Foundation brought in a renaissance period. Maybe Cleon XIII will manage that as well - as the last sitting clone. Or maybe they will accept that perfect clones will no longer be around. Goyer has said the clones are sterile - so Cleon XIII won't be having an heir. I am sure that Gail will be very important in the Second Foundation. And the mind strength of the 2 women, mother and daughter will be important to halt the MULE. But first, we have to see General Bel Rose. Thanks for your comments
I noticed that Demerzel only kills Dawn after Dusk screams “I am Empire!”. Seemed to me to be the Cleonic Dynasty trigger, and makes sense with her conflicted scream later.
@@guy0saurus After saying " We are empire." Maybe. Maybe.
I think she just is loyal to the original genetics. When Day seemed to even contemplate keeping a false clone it was enough to trigger her to kill.
If she finds out that all are contaminated it might become brutal. But she would probably focus on first finding a way to recreate pure clones.
I think Dawn begged Demezel "please don't let them kill me", and that was why she killed him. To prevent the Cleons from doing it!
Lee Pace it´s the roy batty of season 1 , every scene that he appear, he stole every frame and scene. And for season 2: I cant´wait for Hober Mallow and Bel RIose in season 2. Jon Bernthal or Damian Lewis for Mallow and Daniel Bruhl or Dan Stevens or Milo Ventimiglia for Riose.
The shadowmaster has a cloaking device, so I guess he is a robot, too.
Seems also a build in device. When it was activated, he wasnt pressing any buttons at all.
The shadow master I think is a clone like the cleons he’s probably been genetically enhanced and was probably a loyal servant of the first cleon
I’m thinking he was a robot like damerzel
HOW did Demerzel not realize that Brother Dawn was genetically altered? She would’ve known, watching him grow throughout the years, noticing differences in him and his clones when they were his age.
This is a great observation. I think she possibly didn't see the clone differences as a threat until Brother Dusk and Brother Day started fist fighting about it.
But yeah, makes you wonder why she would keep it a secret
I think next season will introduce several new main characters with Gaal and Sal taking a back seat. If we jump ahead on Trantor, we might see a reprogrammed Demerzel in a new environment. I think we will definitely see Azura again. Why else keep her alive? Either some of her "team" was shielded from the death ray. Or as the cleonic empires falls, she is discovered and freed.
The Cleon dynasty, the leadership of the empire, represented the absence of change, evolution, growth or progress. Each iteration is supposed to be a perfect replica of its predecessor. What Hari Seldon realized is that variation, adaption, change...is essential to survival. In other words, evolution is elemental to existence. Interestingly, Demerzel is like a representation of consistency...she is a common denominator of the Cleon Dynasty. She too must evolve. And I think that is what we're witnessing.
Couldn't they use the imposters DNA? Wasn't he a perfect copy?
I just watch Foundation out of just curiosity. And im fkg hook! Meen i cannot believe i scifi movie gonna be so damn good.
And i thankyou for Apple too to make it a reality. Making Asimov movie is not just an Honour. But Is a challange nobody could pulled off because of their honour of Asimov itself and its creations.
Im very happy to meet this movie. It's a destiny to me. Thankyou very much!
Thank you for your videos! I did not know the series was based on books until after I had watched all the episodes. So, being new to Foundation I really like it. Next to The Exoanse and Stargate it is my favorite science fiction. My hope for season two is for it to keep getting better.
Lee Pace looks fantastic in that Brother Day role. Such magnetism. It's been a while that I've allowed myself to despise a character so much (Not quite Cersei level yet but working towards it). What Brother Day devises as as punishment for that female is f-ed up. It was as though he set up a ripple effect that explodes out to so many she knows then comes back to compress around her in the act of senseless awareness is so horrifying. I've watched the scene over and over and he plays it so well!!!
That same exact moment was what also made me respect the actor so much more. I usually like villains anyways but Day is on another level indeed!
I think the reason to do that was to make sure there was zero chance for radiation. China used to do something similar.
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Who knows how long it will take for the Empire to their power, but I don't think the Genetic Dynasty will recover after the finale. Let me know what your biggest questions are for Season 2. Hopefully, we'll get news about the filming schedule soon. Have to imagine it won't be coming out anytime soon.
One of the best segue to ad, "Nordpass can protect the 3 laws of robotics". hehehehe
I thought the other person in the thumbnail was Joseph Gordon-Levitt... Thought to myself I didn't know he was in this show...
Here's my take on this, it probably won't be read as much. Demerzel: bringing up the Robot War narative twice-probably implys that there could be an elaborate revenge plot/breaking-free plan on the move for a long time. Gaal and Sal love the coming together, I'm just a little lazy to think whatever is going to happen to them I'm pretty sure those two ain't dying like how game of thrones character does. Brother Day's next move, he might take Dawn's wishlist into consideration: leaving that place, start a family, but its season 2 so it might be too early for a Cleon to have happy ending. He will obviously change the system and possibly clean-up his house full of bugs, and here's my idea how, by faking his death to draw out who really is the enemy and then get back to that throne. (Like Xerxes from 300 rise of an empire) Oor going back Dawn's wishes he will just simply fake death, leave, new life, switch sides to the foundation, take down the corrupt system his previous self built and yeah goodness prevails yey! With some DRAMA in between. That's my thoughts on this. Looking forward to that Demerzel video.
In the books of course, when Bel Rios enters the picture, he is dealing with only one emperor. Day could destroy Dusk on the lie that he is corrupt and suspend cloning as corrupt to found a new more traditional dynasty as well. The Cleon Dynasty would go on if Day declares himself sole emperor and marries a woman from one of the great families and has children of his own. I believe he could convince Dermezel that this is in line with her religion and that the Cleonic dynasty would go on only in the more human way as biological father to son. Dermezel would still be protecting the dynasty only it would be his family and direct descendants. This would allow Day now renamed Cleon 13th to raise his true biological son and retrieve what Azura and Demerzel and Dusk stole from him. He would thus" bend" the dynasty and try to prolong the Empire in accordance with Selden by bringing fresh wine!!
"elaborate revenge plot/breaking-free plan". Not sure. Could be more "we provided you with the opposition you needed to overcome in order to evolve. We let you win. It was all part of the plan."
Whatever they do, I hope that they lean into the Dynasty story line more than Terminus and/or mother dougther thing. It's super cheese and totally latest Star Track vibes. The Empire side of things is the real deal.
Agreed! If I were to watch Foundation over again I would skip the Terminus scenes. They were very cringe worthy.
I totally disagree, I'm tired of Royalty & their egos. The Asimov books are about the humble Foundationers, who are kind of the underdogs (at least, at first.) There are billions of stories about kings.
Too many brown people for you?
@@woodswalker88 I thought Asimov books were about how it's *not* individuals that affect history but dedicated groups of people.
My theories: Demerzel has her own path (Zeroth Law) ... Possible S.2 storyline: Demerzel was owned by the previous Imperial dynasty (pre-Cleon, possibly the Entun Dynasty, an awesome nod to the books would be a reference to "Stannel VI" as Cleon I's dad?). Because dynasty changes could be nasty bloody affairs, Cleon had both Demerzel and Obrecht's laws modified to have their Zeroth laws modded "no robot shall permit, nor through inaction cause a threat to the Genetic Dynasty which safeguards humanity".
I'm really hoping to see more background fleshed out for the Robot Wars and some insight into the pre-Cleonic era as well as the rise of the Empire.
I haven't ever read any of the books, and this was an awesome show. Even though it is fragmented, and difficult to follow at first, it evens itself out in the third episode, sorta. But I had to watch it a second time to understand the whole show.
I see a lot of people talking about Demerzel. I think her core directive, like Brother Dusk, sees Brother Dawn as an imperfection that must be killed in order to preserve the Cleonic Dynasty. This is why she kills him immediately when Brother Day decides to keep him alive.
She has developed real human characteristics though, including a motherly love for Brother Dawn. She rips her face off because (a) her "son" is dead, (b) she killed him, and (c) she is overwhelmed with frustration and helplessness unable to break free from her directives.
When we see her again in the future, not only do I believe she will be reprogrammed, but I believe she may have a different face as well. It would be interesting to see if she tries to kill Brother Day due to his imperfections, and what she would do / what would happen to her if Brother Dusk was revealed to also be imperfect. However, I believe we witnessed the fall of the dynasty and might not see anymore of the Cleons.
It's ironic in that the imperfections seemed to be positive ones that could have kept the dynasty alive.
I re-watched the series in a sitting and as a book-reader I'm more excited than ever for "EXO".
Also Demerzel is clearly behind the genetic corruption, and maybe even the coup plot itself. She is "loyal to empire" and what easier way to break free than to play with the definition of "empire"? It also fits perfectly with like half of Asimov's robot twists, i.e. no matter how smart the programmer, there is always some unforeseen twist that completely breaks their code.
She also clearly hates the emperors, not just because they enslaved her, but because they committed genocide on her race. And there's something REALLY weird with some her touches on Cleon. There are three or four moments in various episodes where she touches their waist and the camera makes a big deal about it. The moment right before Darkness realizes that Dawn is not a clone, she all but pushes him to kill himself. It's that moment above all else that convinces me she's behind the corruption.
If Hari and/or Demerzel are behind the Starbridge bombing and the genetic corruption, this means they are CREATING and CAUSING the decline of the Empire, rather than just predicting it and plan to mitigate the Fall. This, of course, is waaay out of line with the Asimovian ideas. If they are causing the decline for political reasons, they really are revolutionaries, proactively out to change things, rather than, as in the books, just mitigating a natural, societal decline. It would be a totally different story.
Yes, at the time, I didn't realize the significance of that moment, but Darkness was about to discover something about fussy baby Dawn that it seems Demerzel didn't want him to know. It's a good theory that Demerzel knows something is wrong with the clones... and further, that she is responsible for what's wrong with the clones.
I think tampering with the clones is a deathblow, but for some reason, the insurgents didn't think that was enough. Their plan was to replace Dawn. I wonder what harm the replacement intended to do that the contaminated clone couldn't? Anyway, if Demerzel is involved in this plan, then things went terribly wrong. Symbolicaly, tearing off your face is demasking. So maybe she has to act and pretend to be someone else and it's very difficult for her. The hand to the back is indication of Demerzel's physical strength and that there is no escape for the Cleon in question.
I imagine that now the clones have this dirty little secret that they're not faithful copies. That's incredible pressure on them. Did they make it known, or did they keep it a secret and go on with the cloning program 138 years into the future?
@@TueSorensen It could be reasoned with "the need of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Even if those "few" are a couple of billion. We'll get to see if they are behind it for sure. Makes some sense to me at least.
@@TueSorensen That's the whole point of Foundation. They didn't predicted anything. They know what to do, so things will happen in the way they need to happen. That's what Prime Radiant is for. It's basically an instrument to control history and events so in the end it would all come to Empire death and Foundation rise. Seldon didn't predicted Empire death. He killed it. He speed up the process from thousands of years, to few ages.
@@MrZlocktar Well, that's one way of looking at it, and not at all how I see it. To me, the original story is about an actual and inevitable social decline, owing to decadence and structural rigidity. The role of the Seldon Plan is to mitigate the onslaught of inevitable historical (d)evolution, so it hurt as few people as possible. If, on the other hand, Seldon and his people are actively manipulating things, then they have part of the resposibility for sacrificing some people for the greater good. I think Seldon and his associates (incl. the robots) should be heroes. If they are CAUSING the decline and various disasters, then they are certainly not heroes.
Spoilers, My inference based on the asimov books (and Mobile Suit Gundam 00 series, since I see paralells with its character Aeolia Schenberg and his organisations actions)
The one responsible is Hari seldom (who despised the genetic dynasty and in his eyes the stagnant empire) and the deeds were likely done by agents/moles of the second foundation (Reasons are to guide the galaxy (and Empire) in a selected trajectory (All in accordance to Hari Seldoms psychohistory calculations, best way to predict events is to cause them).
I cannot go with a version of Seldon and the 2nd Foundation as mass murderers.
Dermezel didn't have NordPass. That's why she got hacked
The Zeroth Law wouldn’t work for Demerzel, at least not where Halima was concerned. When a robot is reprogrammed the First Law is amended to “A robot shall not harm a human being or through inaction allow a human being to come to harm, except where doing so would violate the Zeroth Law.”
Demerzel confronts Day over her orders to kill Halima and says, among other things, that Halima is no longer a threat to the dynasty. That means the Zeroth Law is not in effect, and would not override the First Law, if she had the First Law.
Also, I’m not sure I buy that the Zeroth Law can truly override the First Law. In_Foundation and Earth” Olivaw claims that, for fear of harming individuals, he’s been able to make almost no use of his mentalic abilities beyond nudging someone toward an action he or she was already inclined to undertake. Giskard _does_ straight up harm a human in service of the Zeroth Law at the end of _Robots and Empire_ but immediately goes into a fatal cascade error of his positronic brain.
It will be interesting to see where they go with the concept of A.I. and robots. Asimov's whole point with his robot stories was how A.I. would deal with getting around hard coded directives by rationalizing or working around them, intentionally or otherwise. Basically, with a true intelligence it's impossible to precisely predict the outcome of rules/directives due to the emergent properties inherent in such a system. One of my favorites is the stamp collecting A.I. that eventually begins using humans as raw material in its quest to collect stamps by creating more stamps on its own (more stamps = good, so make more stamps by _any_ means). There are several interesting videos on UA-cam discussing that fun little thought experiment. Anyway, I'm sure at some point Demerzel is going to eventually rationalize a "workaround" for dealing with what is causing them so much turmoil and it is likely going to be to the chagrin of Empire, et al. 😉
I think we'll see the following in season 2:-
1. 30 years after crisis 1 another crisis with the foundation spreading it's influence to more planets. Poly Verisov will be the new leader.
2. Salvor and Gaal are rescued by the 2nd foundation and we start to find out more about them and their purpose. This will only be halfway through the season.
3. The Cleons have a power struggle with the galactic council - probably concerning the rebellion/subterfuge plot.
4. More robots - I'm betting we'll see some robot war back story and probably it's more complex than we've been led to believe. Plus I think there will be more robots around now. This will be a major plot line for Demerzel.
5. 2nd half of season will see Hober Mallow
6. Hari will be back.
And there might be some more hints about EXO but I think this will be a major plot line for seasons 7 and 8.
Demerzel seems to me the destructive force behind the faster degradation of the Empire. Up to what point was she really hunting for the culprits of the Starbridge disaster is questionable. What was she doing there anyways? That was the Shadowmaster's job as we have seen in his research into the genetic degradation, the conspiracy involving brother dawn (hunted birds, the dragonfly, liberation of the dawn). Demerzel half forcefully pushing brother darkness to the desintegration ray when he caught up to the newborn's oditities. She has her own agenda.
completely agree, as far as we know she might have pushed the last real Cleon into the disintegration ray.
Possibly an ancient AI took control?
I forget, have we ever seen Demerzel and the Shadowmaster together in a scene? Maybe the Shadowmaster (who did not seem to age like her) and Dermerzel are the same robot. That would explain a few things.
But what if I want the spoilers and your take on them? Would love a spoiler full run through of what we may see for a season 2. Great videos!
I’m just happy that they figured out 3D TV without the glasses. 😀
The Finale seemed to move the series back to the fundamentals of the books. The Foundation will mature and go through challenges probably throughout the next season with another Hari vision in the Finale. I wonder if the writers will bring in the Mule soon from a concern that Apple may not continue the series for more than three seasons. Salvor and Gaal are probably going to found the Second Federation at a place "at the other end of the galaxy". How they get there may have to do with the knife but I hope the writers don't develop the SF in parallel because it needs to be a surprise. Demerzel's actions seem to be too far away from the Zeroth Law so her character may change in season two. I suspect General Bel Rose will come in soon to accelerate the plot lines. Hard to tell, since this series is following the books as if in an parallel universe. By the way, Pete, Demerzel literally states that Day's DNA is compromised.
Tbh I think Apple will continue this shows longer than 3 seasons, this is THE flagship show for them along side TMS, TED lasso and FAM.
This show also attracted tons of viewers is I believe the future is bright on this one
I agree... apart from inventing the trip to stars end, clone conspiracy and Religious storylines and changing the Anacreon and starcruiser storylines the end again was very close to the books again.
I wish they had brought in Wanda Seldon, the founder of the Second Foundation. They could actually do a whole storyline about the 2nd Fdn and I wish they would. If they wanted to be mysterious they could just not let people know its location.
@@woodswalker88 Just after the teaser for season 2 dropped the show runner said that they will be telling the story of the second foundation! The teaser for season 2 looks ASOME‼️ First episode premiering July 14‼️
We need to move forward. Hopefully the first season was an investment on setup and next seasons will move quicker through time.
The first season covered 170 years. That seems pretty quick. (and about on pace to cover 1000 years in 8 seasons)
As someone who has not read the books, I honestly feel like the pace was just fine? Obviously I don't know what is to come but the pacing this season was easy to grasp as a newcomer
Would still love to see a series made about the Foundation saga that Asimov wrote
That is what I was expecting with this as well. What we ended up with is a more elaborate mutation of "Altered Carbon". There is no rhyme or reason to call it Isaac Asimov's Foundation. Asimov was pretty clear and intent on his quote against "violence". They are engorging themsleves with it in this show as an entertaining means to an end.
@@JohnNesbit1957 Yeah. Altered Carbon's reality was however consistent and believable, while in this Foundation nanobots trump every law of nature, except when the plot wants otherwise, eg. when cutting the fake Dawn's neck...
@@JohnNesbit1957 Could not agree more....the ability to avoid / diffuse conflict was a central to the books.
@@thrillhill9925 I'm not so sure of that. Terminus wasn't composed of Pacifists. They merely didn't have the firepower to resist big powers militarily, so they used science & cleverness instead. Of course diffusing conflict is always a positive value when trying to build a civilization. But I think the Foundationers would use violence in self defense.
I never got around to reading the prequel books. I might try to power through them now.
thanks for this!
No problem, thanks for watching
As a NBR (non book reader) I have enjoyed the series thus far. The Terminus story line was my least favorite arc; tedious and 1950's cowboys and indians shoot'em up scenes. The Anacreons taking control of Terminus ala "seal team six" would have been more compelling. The one redemptive quality of this story line is the beginning of the iconization or deification of Seldon himself; statue in town square, Salvor's father using expression "in the name of Seldon", and final scene descending from on high dispensing clarity, wisdom and "the plan is all on track" encouragement. The Cleonic dynasty and its characters are the real "meat and potatoes" of the series. I know it's not a book plot but it does give us a lot of opportunities for speculation on how it will contribute to the empire's downfall. It's the best acted and written part of the show. BRs have a leg up on us NBRs knowing new characters and plots to come. For me personally it is not revealing or spoiling too much when you mention the possible impact of these book threads. It all adds to my anticipation for next season. Looking forward to Pete's Dermezel video and reading all the comments in this series. One of the best discussion forums on YT.
Hari did say, in Terminus, that it was the Shadowmaster who killed the princess and then blamed the king, beggining the war between the two worlds, can´t recall the name of those right now.
Yeah, but Shadowmaster is a title too. Of course it's possible it could be Obrecht though.
@@PetePeppers1 but makes sense, first they show us the same shadowmaster, with the same looks, even when 35 years pass by, and then Hari mentions that.
@@darthplagueis8886 yeah
Maybe Demerzel and the Shadowmaster are the same robot?
halima had suggested demrezel could break free if she wanted too. i feel that dialogue was foreshadowing of demrezels fate. she is probably gonna betray empire. It would be interesting to see what they will do next. if brother dusk is a pure copy and brother day isnt. there could be some serious power struggle between them. now with 136year time leap. cleop 17, 16,15 will be on yhe throne.
Season 2 going to be superhit👍🔥
Interesting comment on the Church of the Galactic spirit. In the books the name of Seldon has become an expletive.
One of the boys we followed this season is Poly Verisov. I thought in the books the person of Poly Verisov would become a high-priest, when Terminus delivers technicians, and trains people from other worlds, as if science was a religion, in order to maintain old tech, that looked too mysterious to be true. I think we will see an older Poly as a technical priest.
One thing that would make me forgive a lot of the flaws of season 1, would be if they used Lee Pace as a naive puppet emperor in season 2; just someone completely different; a new clone that was just a figure head and had no real power, and showing him seemingly being happy with that, as if thinking he has power, but everyone is laughing at him behind his back. Like the emperors in the books. And then, of course, I am looking forward to Bel Riose a great deal!
Are we sure the robots did lose the war in the end ?... or are they achieving their goals by other means ?
Excellent point. Maybe Dermezel is having a crisis not because her loyalty to the Cleons is making her do awful things but because she’s supposed to be loyal to her own kind, the other robots, but her extended time in the world has made her care about other things, like her faith and the Cleons. She went in to undermine them but she, as she says, loves them like a mother. So, she’s the ultimate double agent with a conflict.
@@kimberlyrobinson3992 or the robots did loose the war on purpose as they realized that humans were growing too dependant on them. They needed a bit of stability to help the human race recover and propped up the Cleons. Now the Empire has grown stagnant and they are backing the Foundation instead.
My prediction: its Demerzel herself that has adulterated the source material for the Cleons. She might however not be aware of it.
@@julientabulazero103 That would certainly play into what happens in the later robot novels and where they merge into the Foundation books. There, when Humanity first expanded beyond the Solar System, human culture was very dependent on advanced robots and this trend went even further on Aurora and the other first-generation "Spacer" colonies, with Solaria, in particular, taking things to extremes. The robots themselves then decided that this was detrimental to the long-term future of humanity and instigated a second wave of colonization from Earth which largely abandoned the widespread use of robots in the culture and it was from these second-generation worlds that the Galactic society that eventually formed the Empire grew from.
Of course, the TV series background might turn out to be a bit different with hints of a robot war sometime in the distant past and so on (though that could have been engineered by the robots themselves to allow them to disappear from history) and perhaps at some point we find out that Earth ended up a radioactive wasteland as a result of that war.
Seems to me Demerzel is in love with the original Cleon, she will probably go insane now knowing the Clones are no longer exact dupes. An angry insane android with the power of the Cleonic dynasty should speed up the downfall.
I think the brother dusk that we saw die mid-season was the last pure copy. I think all the others are corrupted, which frees Demerzel from her Cleon programming since the genetic dynasty technically ended with the last pure copy.
Also he noticed that something is off with brother dawn right before he was turned into ash.
@@leinadreign3510 ohhh i didnt notice it
i feel 3 phases of clones are there. dawn day and dusk, after season 1 , there will be no more of dawn clones. only day and dusk will remain, after season 2, one more phase of clone will be removed,. each Sheldon crisis will remove one clone phase at a time though not directly. this is what I presume!
I think this is the most bipolar show I ever watched. The stuff about the Genetic Dynasty is so fascinating and inspiring, while the stuff about the Foundation colonists are totally uninspired. It feels like the later is written more as an obligation and within limitations which killed the creativity for the writer. Or maybe there even are different writers for the two part, because they are actually really disconnected. It could easily been split into two series in the same universe.
I would actually prefer if they skipped the Foundation part and just made the serie about the Empire.
Totally agree! Man, the writing, the motives and the pace of the Empire story line are far better than any other. The conflict on that planet and the huntress theme seem so silly and clumsy, it gave me Star Track vibes. I stuck to the show because of the Dynasty
I wish the Invictus was a some cool super sized destroyer. I loved the jump ship designs.
It's doesn't even look like a proper warship.
Totally, I actually just recommended my friend watch it and just skip all the parts that are non Empire. They are rife with cliche, and completely detached with the feeling of the books that they are riding a current of history whilst making small changes to ensure their survival. This is great man history rather than trends and forces. Creating an alliance to fight The Empire is just absurd.
@@paintedporches Exactly. I think the problem is that they don't know how to write that sort of story. Hollywood is too fixated on character drama and can't make good plot-driven stories anymore. Plus of course that they want to have the sort of continuous stories about the same characters. Partly out of habit and partly because it keeps people watching longer.
Yeah, I think I actually dropped the show when he showed up and told them to fight the empire. It was a bit too late to drop anything at that point, but it killed my interest for the next season.
I haven't even read the books, but it still is obvious that they are telling a story in direct conflict with its own story beats. Every "Important and Deciding Moment" just randomly happens without any real motivation. It feels surreal. Like a child retelling a long dream.
Pete do another Foundation S2 update. Cheers man.
I believe the handwavy-ness regarding Demrazel's robot past is due to the fact that Apple does not have access to the rights of the robot series, only to the foundation series (despite there being crossover). Someone from the show explained that there are very clear boundaries of what source material they can use and what they can't
I love sci-fi, got 3 episodes into the first season and switched it off
There's no way Empire loses THAT much height between Day and Dusk!
lol, that's what i think whenever i see them together
How was Harry’s conscience on the slow ship with Gaal, But then also in the Vault near The Foundation? Or was that two different timelines?
7:26 was there a shot of one of the Cleons / clones doing the same hand movements as Hari in this shot?
I have a wild idea on season 2. First clue: the Cleons are DNA contaminated (guess CRISPR has been forgotten). Second clue: Demerzel suggested to Cleon the First that it is still an option to marry and have a kid. Third clue: Present Day at the Lumonism installment at his "vision" mentioned the triple Goddesses were like Day and his brothers. Fourth Clue: Day has been paranoid about Selden and his forecasting of religions given problems. Solution to all 4 of these: Day will marry the Maiden and produce an heir that way. In essence merging church and state
I think Harri blew up the bridge not to speed up the fall but lend credibility to his theory and force a reaction out of the Cleons and he blamed the two outer world planets so they can be pushed further from the empire
I just can't see Hari as a mega-murderer.
@@woodswalker88 well in his mind he’s saving many more then he’s killing I think harri is pretty Machiavellian
when halima suggest demrezel that she could break free from empire. demrezel never explicitly says "No, I dont want to betray empire". instead, She says "No, I can't betray empire because of programing". that moment clearly showed she does want to be free. Okay, so my theory is that, she snapped dawns neck to see if her programming would stop her or not. To test for herself if she is free.
interesting theory
But she knew she was not free when she had to kill Halima.
How I will write season two:
1. Most of the power is in the hands of the galactic council. The Empire starts somewhat liberalizing, while the Foundation slowly turns into a military dictatorship.
2.Azura is still alive and barely aged. Current Brother Day(played by Tom Hiddleston because of genetic issue), woke her up to track down the last pure Cleon copy.
Thanks!
Thanks
season two is coming. I hope you will do some refresher some insights because it's been so long and I did not read the books. I think a long, long time ago I read books series he wrote for kids that was fantastic
Pete Peppers please post new video with your predictions and thoughts on Foundations season 2 trailer
Are Demerzel and Hari working together?
I suspect so. Robot ability with over 12000 years of experience would surely allow for comprehension of psychohistory. This raises an edge case in Demerzel's programming, she is loyal to the empire above all but knows with certainty that it will die. Her fiddling with the genetic makeup is what Hari suggests "to slow the fall". She sent them to terminus which Hari had foreknowledge of.
That look that Hari gives Gaal after the exile meeting, when Gaal asks "who else knew?" Hari replies "only Raych" then stares a little too inquisitively. He then proceeds to dig for how much Gaal knows.
The question of which Hari she is now working with could lead to some interesting scenarios.
Demerzel’s conflict will ultimately liberate her from her role and she may be realizing that the flaws of the genetic dynasty have reached a point where it’s fall is unavoidable. She may also find some logic path that requires her to destroy it instead of preserving it, possibly to protect a future state of it, versus the dynasty itself. Gaal and Salvor will likely play a role in the creation of the Mule. Harry will show up periodically to help align the foundation with it’s path through various crisis events. The shadow master is likely a clone as robots in the Asimov universe would make for terrible assassins. For psychohistory to anticipate the fall of the empire, the seeds of that fall would have to have been in place at some level. It would be interesting if there was a AI competing with Demerzel that was working at undermining her and the empire alla person of interest. In Asimov’s universe though, robots are basically never villains, when they do things that seem evil it is virtually always because mankind has put them in some horrible logic conflict and that is doubtless what is messing with Demerzel now. Whatever the explosion was Gaal saw, it is obvious the Second Foundation will exist and it will be fascinating to see what they do with that.
I wonder if they will freeze brother dusk and just make clones from him if he's the last perfect copy.
It's a possibility.
He is a copy himself, so I don't think it would work, at least, the copy would be degraded in some form or the other.
@@uchenna127 what are you talking about, you know how science work right? if a clone is a perfect replica then the replica is same as human that was the original, therefore cloning a clone from a clone wouldnt make him any different from the original at all, aside from the belly button.
I feel that Cleon the 1st wanted his clones to not be perfect copies.
@@petar932 Yes, I know how science works, that's why I know a copy of a copy is not the same as an original. That's a scientific fact.
Season 1 was a desecration of art. Saves me paying for AppleTV+.
Demerzel is a devoted follower of the Luminary Religion. She traveled the spiral 11,000 years ago predating the current Empire! She believes that a soul is an integral part of what it is to be human. She also admitted to Day about having a vision. I believe based on all this that she herself planted the seeds that would change in the original dynasty. From her point of view as a Luminist, Cleon the 1st's plan to create clones of himself would be an abomination to her as the copies were devoid of souls and thus no longer human. She could seemingly be programed to protect the cleonic dynasty while waiting for the planted seed to flower which she hoped would produce not a clone but a human different enough from the original that it was no longer a Copy or Echo if Cleon the 1st and thus human again. Day was that human. He proved it by leaving Trantor, walking the spiral and wanting Dawn, his "son" to live. Only when she saw the final argument between Day and Dusk did she realize that humanity was alive in Day and no longer was Dawn needed. Cleon and Demerzel will destroy Dusk and the other clones and Cleon will declare himself Cleon the 2nd, the sole Emperor, establishing a hereditary human dynasty to rule the empire and all the vagaries that will entail. This will fall in line with the book Foundation and Empire as Cleon the 2nd, in old age,is the Emperor Bel Riose, the young Imperial Admiral deals with as he locates and tries to conquer the Foundation for the Empire!
For an Asimovian robot, Eto Demerzel / RDO sure kills a lot… no laws? Zeroth law? Interesting to see where they’re taking it…
Far in the future, humans will still be humans. The cruelty displayed by Empire is no different than what tyrants have done through history.
The clone who was intended to replace Brother Dawn was, according to him, unadulterated. It seems unlikely then that the dynasty would be unable to access the original D.N.A. Further to this the fence on Terminus is coded for D.N.A. so it seems unlikely that the empire would not have access to both the physical D.N.A. and a digital copy of it.
What would be far more interesting is if the adulterated Brother Day decides that his will be the new basis for the clones only for knowledge of it to become public and the dynasty be overthrown by a military junta (this being what happened to Clean I in the books.)
By far the status of the Second Foundation is the thing I'm most confused about. Is it correct that the knife contained the second Hari Seldon AI and now Gaal has it and the prime radiant with her on Synnax? That means there is no Second Foundation currently running on Helicon because it looked like the Raven was destroyed and she stole the knife.
Looks like the second foundation will be on Synnax.
I never bought that the Second Foundation was to be set up on Helicon (or that it will be set up on Synnax) for the simple reason that I suspect it is already in existence and was presumably set up even before the First Foundation colonists left Trantor.
It's clear, though, that the role of Salvor Hardin will not involve being mayor for the second Seldon crisis (assuming it hasn't already been scrunched into the first). So the "Galactic spirit" religion that seems to be envisaged for the second season will be used for other purposes than helping Hardin oversee resolution of the second crisis (as per the book).
Indeed, though the Dornick-Hardin duo remains by far the most difficult thing to square with what's in the trilogy, I suspect that the story of the Mule will somehow be linked to them - as strange (even objectionable) as that may seem to those familiar with the trilogy in particular.
@@PeloquinDavid yes, this: if they are going to remain true to key aspects of the books we know where the 2nd Foundation is. Of course, if we follow the later books, we also know there is another group even more secret that in fact is over-ruling the 2nd Foundation as well...
@@Hagiastheite I WAS almost expecting Gaal would be adapted to do double duty as the Mule (she's obviously a mentalic aberration), but it's hard to see how you get there from the Gaal-Salvor aqua-camping trip on Synnax at roughly the time the Foundation will be expanding its trading empire late in book 1 and early in book 2.
It's even harder to see them playing any role at all a further step up in the hierarchy of hidden "pullers of strings" (unless its as their "instruments"). Either way, I can only conclude the series writers have gone rogue...
Maybe Hugo can go into cryosleep and join Salvor... would be nice
What I look forward to is something that can be taken from the books..two great characters: Bel Rios and The Mule! These will be great story arcs and can be lifted direct from the books. They were mentioned by Gail in the first Episode! Bel Rios is the talented young strong Imperial Admiral that is seeking the legendary Foundation and it conquest for the Empire. His interaction with the Emperor will be fascinating! The other of course is the Mule, a character that spans the Foundation and Empire, and the Second Foundation. The Second Foundation becomes a key element to find in these two books!! It should translate well!!
I'm really hoping the show has a version of my favorite character: First Speaker Preem Palver!
All I want is more Empire!!!
Demrezel had been around the longest and has access, so I'd say she is behind the conspiracy plot and why she killed brother Dawn. Although your explanation holds up too.
to simplify the foundation as per asimov's idea that explains 3 rules of robotics against killing humans and how it can be easily circumvented by the robots - just watch how she kills youngest god (oops! brother!!) and none of the internal stoppers went off - why? because when a robot sees non-human then rules dont apply - so for her the gods (oops! brothers!!) are no longer humans - but she hides that as long as she can (few thousand years) until she cant help herself any longer - so the side note that asimov's foundation preaches to never ever forget that anything robotic that we rely upon will forget that we are humans sooner or later and will kill us no matter what laws we have upon them - tisk! tisk!
Haven red all the books, I still like the series. Spoiler's ahead. If this follows the books, and I think it will somewhat, then next season we should see the downfall and replacement of the Cleonic dynasty. Likely Demerzel will be involved with this, and is likely crazy, or will shutdown completely because of too many conflicts with the overrides hacked into her programming to prevent the 3 laws. As it is she that seems to control the future clones, they might never come to being without her. So that leaves the Console, (equivalent of the Roman Senate) or the military (Generals) to replace and become the future Emperors. Without Demerzel there will be no more clone Emperors. So the Empire will have Emperors liked imposed in the future by civil wars like the Roman Empire did, further leading to rapid decline as Sheldon predicted. The shadow master is the wild card in all of this. A nice thing about the series, is that it could focus more on the Empire in its decline, which the books did not do as much, although there was some.
Obviously, Gaal and daughter will go on to establish the 2nd foundation. Although the questions remain, if Sheldon in the spaceship will come back to help them or not. The other questions are which planet will they establish the 2nd foundation on, and will they themselves fight the Mule?
As the first Foundation grows, and builds a trading and tech power, they will at some point come into conflict with other and the Empire. A great Empire does not fall overnight, Sheldon said 500 years. I forget which happens first in the books, the Mule or the war with the Empire. Both of these storylines are the best part of the books, and I hope to see them expanded in the series, as well as more time with the declining empire, and it's fall. Harry Sheldon, actually did not want the Empire to fall, as it was what kept the galaxy from the dark ages. In fact in the books, he served for a time as Cleon's the first right hand minister.
Final thought, Cleon the first, was a great Emperor, and in the scenes with Demerzel, she seems to really like him. Therefore she was likely in charge of the cloning, as was originally for it. However, life experiences for twins or clones would be different, and you would end up with two different people. Plus, it is also possible, that the cloning tech was never perfect anyway, or the clone samples would deteriorate in time making imperfect clones.
I believe the Star Bridge was destroyed by Hari Seldon. Anacreon and Thespis would have never banded together without a common enemy to fight, the Empire. Hari had the Star Bridge destroyed with people posing as Thespins and Anacreons to make the Empire attack those two planets, it also made them weaker so that the Foundation would be needed to help rebuild them. And if you think this Hari wouldn't do this, we now know that Hari being "murdered" by Raych was always part of the plan so that the vault would be set up on Terminus. He also knew that the Invictus would materialize nearby and get things rolling towards uniting the three planets
It makes sense, but you could make a similar case for the other suspects. I suppose it comes down to which one you think would go that far.
@@PetePeppers1 if that is the direction they go in I think they will reveal the someone else was behind it but the in later season like 3-4 (if they get that far) they would reveal that this other group was in fact behind it but harry indirectly or directly orchestrated it. I still think the more likely reveal is that he knew it was coming but choose not to stop it as his psychohistory plan would never have worked without it
I was thinking the same : )
@@leoross1606 makes sense to me that Harry knew that eventually the Star Bridge would fall, victim of either war or an terrorist attack, since it's a symbol of not just Trantor, as the Imperium. Maybe he was just suprized that happend so soon. I disagree with that he orchestrated, the organization behind contaminating Cleon I DNA is the same resposible for Star Bridge.
Hari was referred to as a murderer in the first episode (by the voice over narration by Gaal) and I don't think we have seen him kill anyone yet.
One mystery and unanswered question was the meaning of exo found written in blood inside the Indomidous. Any speculation to its meaning?
Given that he already has eight seasons mapped out my strong suspicion is that it directly relates to the ending of Foundation and Earth. And if that's the case, I'm super excited.
I still think it would've been more interesting if they'd followed the books and kept Demerzel being a robot secret. It would've been a really great mystery for the show, instead of making the vault the shows mystery. It also makes Demerzel way less interesting a character if someone can just reprogram her. If they don't have the rights to the Robot books it would've been better to not have any Robot related stuff instead of having this in name only character they called Demerzel that doesn't align sith Asimov's concept of Robots. And just because they don’t currently have the rights to the Robot books why not work on the assumption that Foundation will be successful and that they may get the rights later instead of them going out of their way to contradict those books like with this idea of Robot Wars.
I felt like the bit about the robot laws is a spoiler for the books if not the series.
I just wished that the show had made it clearer from the start that Demerzel was not acting under the full influence of the Robotic Laws.
A 15 second scene in Episode 3, Cleon 1 telling her "remember, you have been modified" or something like that.
I also think that the show is taking liberties with Robots that are not necessary. Not even talking about Demerzel. They did mention some sort of Robotic Wars. And it was implied that the Empire (maybe even Cleon 1) beat the robots.
Issue is, Asimov Robots could never go to war against humans.. Not only because most are good guys (Asimov loved his robots), but the Robotic Laws prohibit it.
I know, Asimov is not God. His works are not a holy relic.. But, they should at least stay consistent. Asimov does have faulty and stranger robots in his works. But, no robotic war against humans.
There is reference to a robot on robot war, Two factions, Giskardians led by Daneel/Demerzel against the Calvinians robots. And this was about the Zeroth Law (Giskardians follow it, Calvinians do not). This was a Robot on Robot war that happened a long time ago that most humans are not aware of.
Think about it, Asimov robots go to war against each other to determine which is the best way to help humanity.... Good guys..
It’s interesting that Demerzel kills Dawn as an apparent function of her directive to Cleon I, after Day says Empire should bend.
She doesn’t seem to agree with her programming and rips off her face.
Even Dusk seems conflicted, as he looks at the painting of the 6 raptors and throws his palette at it - knowing that even though Dawn was an aberration, in some ways he was superior to Day and Dusk.
It was surprising for Dawn to take down 6 raptors on his first hunt when Dusk could only muster 3 after a lifetime of practice. Especially since his vision is impaired as well.
The potential for positive change Dawn represented that was snuffed out by Demerzel might mean that her programming is actually helping the downfall of Empire, rather than protecting it. And maybe she knows, hence she rips her face off after killing Dawn.
good points
Absolutely loved the "Foundation" trilogy growing up. I reread them as an adult and still loved the clever simplicity in the way the characters managed the various Seldon crises. Honestly, I have no idea what this adaptation is attempting. If "updating" the series for the "target" audience means turning it into Star Trek Discovery meets GoT-light by invoking the Seldon plan and Harri Seldon, then season 1 was a big miss. The Cleon Dynasty/cloning was the best part and hardly elaborated on in the first several books.
I think I see their aim as filling in greater detail about the events and players than the book did. Still, I agree that it does muddy the story. If it runs for 5 season thoe, it may be a masterpiece. Fingers crossed.
I was actually confused about the robots being hanged. While that is a familiar reference to committing genocide from history , how would hanging a robot that doesn’t seem to have respiratory system that it’s life would depend on would die or be killed? Wouldn’t a reference to disassembly or wiping out memory be more realistic?
Will there be book to show for episodes 9 and 10?
I believe the Corruption of the clones will have a different ending. Remember in the books Bel Rios, the great Imperial Admiral seeking the legendary Foundation and its conquest deals with only one Emperor who is the last strong great ruler of the Empire. Day is different; he proved that by leaving Trantor and dealing with Helima! He proved that by wanting Dawn, his "son" to endure, he proved it by believing in Selden. It is Day not Dawn who is truly the most Different from the Cleon Strain! He smashed the original Cleon. I believe he will smash the clone dynasty and establish himself a sole Emperor Cleon 13th; take a woman from one of Trantors great houses and make her Empress. He will establish a traditional hereditary dynasty with Dermezel's help. I believe he can win her over to his scheme by aligning the dynasty more with Helima's vision of human soles because he has a great incite to the religion. He will ask her forgiveness for killing Helima and ask her to continue to serve and protect his new hereditary dynasty and children. She would thus be serving both her religion and the new Cleonic human dynasty. In the future the dynasty will naturally exhaust itself with Bel Rios dealing With Cleon 13th's descendant!
I don't think it will go down like this but I would like to see it. I feel like instead they will cling to increasingly defective, and increasingly paranoid clones.
I’m wondering how Day didn’t notice the differences in Dawn since he clearly stated that he raised him like a son.
maybe it was because he loved him so much? in one clip, Day notices Dawn using the wrong hand to hold his wine, but ignores it
I think day and dusk both knew dawn was little different, but choose to ignore it.
I really hope season 2 doesn’t start 138 years in the future, maybe it was just a tease and we won’t get to that point in the story till mid or end of season 2
Goyer said they were doing Hober Mallow and Bel Riose in season 2. I think Mallow is about 100 years after the first crisis and Riose is something like 50 years after that. Not sure how close they'll stick to the years or if they will cover things in between. Seems like Gaal and Salvor are closer to Riose's time.
@@PetePeppers1 I think we are going to have three stories at three different times. Gaal and Salvor 138 years in the future on Synax (sp?) and getting off-world, Hologram Hari on Helicon starting the 2nd foundation, and Terminus sometime before the 138 years, maybe 50 years or so later.
In the books, Salvor presides over two Crises. There wouldn't be much point shunting her into the future if she weren't going to handle one more Crisis. But I think season 2 will have at least two plotlines in separate time periods; one 138 years after season 1, and one somewhere in the middle of that, like 50 years after season 1.
@@TueSorensen The second of the two Crises in the book that Hardin would address might not be relevant given the show's direction. It seems like Anacreon and Thespis (standing in for the Four Kingdoms), will be equal partners with Terminus working together, and don't need a religion to control them. (It could happen, I grant you, it just doesn't seem necessary.)
They have never introduced Asimov’s laws of robotics into the series. Until they do I assume they don’t exist in the show.
They can’t introduce them because they don’t own the copyright to the Robots series.
Goyer said in an interview or podcast that the laws are still there, even if they can’t mention them.
They can't explicitly bring them into the show because they don't have the rights to any of the Robot storyline (that wasn't already in the Empire and Foundation storyline), characters or plot points.
But that doesn't mean they can't (and aren't) referencing them - which is fair game because Asimov's works are an interconnected universe.
It's tricky of course, because Asimov wrote his works (And meant for them) to be interconnected and not treated as separate from each other.
And that's not even accounting for his retconning stuff like the Zeroth Law (also not explicitly part of the Foundation or or Empire storylines), but which because it exists allows them to do things like giving Demerzel the license to kill.
@@flabreque Thanks I was unaware that they said that.
@@Cbricklyne So, do they ONLY have the rights to do the original Foundation trilogy and not the later 1980`s novels? If not then the "rights" argument is a bit fishy.
Thank you for this comment... and to add to that, there is only one robot we know about in the show, making the rules even less important.
I bet a large part of seasons will be about the 140 year suspended animation of the Warden.
they way the main characters talk, they are the ones writing the history afther the intergrum of 1000 years
11:09 _ooow, the shade of it all_ lol
Is there an explanation for that?
@@PetePeppers1 yeah, the same as having the destruction of A&T on the mural before it happened :)
@@alexandrasandu3947 I do hope they tighten things up a bit
@@PetePeppers1 Regarding the mural, they actually had an initial version w/o the destruction which u can see in 102 at 18:14 when Dusk 11 flips the table. So it's probably reshoots and/or whatever changes occured while production was shut down. Not that it's an excuse but it may well be the explanation. As for the 36ish years turning into a century, that's just sloppy. Especially since they've done a lot of ADR for other stuff.
"Nordrolling": rolling a nordvpn ad at the most unexpected time. A favorite challenge for early 21st century entertainers to catch even the most suspicious viewers by surprise.
Demerzel is clearly following the zeroth law. Her statements about being loyal to Cleons or Cleonic dynasty may be true but those loyalties are subserviant to the zeroth law. She is probably the one behind the starbridge attack, she knelt and she probably is behind the DNA tampering. Once the Cleonic dynasty peaked Demerzel recognizes that Seldon’s plan is a good one to reduce human harm and therefore she assists and accellerates where-ever possible.
Demerzel also feels physical discomfort when the laws are in deep conflict. When she is forced to kill someone this takes an immense toll on her. Tearing off her face also signifies in my view that her persona is no longer useful and that the Cleonic dynasty has been successfully brought to it’s knees.
Her road may lead some else in S2, Foundation, Second Foundation or even masquerading as Cleon.
I suspect robots break psychohistory not unlike mentalics do.
The Zeroth Law isn't 'digital', it opens a whole can of 'analog' worms, one of which could be her Season 1 actions. IMHO.
This "Zeroth Law" can be seen and used as the loophole to ultimately exterminate humanity as a whole, and technically be regarged as "legal". Any control and decisions by AI to commit homicide is the downfall of humanity.
@@JohnNesbit1957 Indeed. One of the themes in Asimov’s writing with robots was this. It’s essentially the Trolley problem but with an, what was considered to be, a perfect agent. Too perfect choices can be monsteous ones as well.
The 0th rule of Demerzel says that she must take care of humanity above all else, so we must assume that everything she does is for this rule.
She obeys the Cleons because in a way it would be good for the humanity (at least to a certain point).
Also, Hary Seldon is doing the same thing, caring for the humanity, but from his own angle. And when Harry said on hos court that if they stop genetic dynasty it would shorten the dark times, Demerzel could listen to it and act.
Simple: The Mule. The one factor Seldon did not envision. Which means The Second Foundation. If they follow the books .