Train friends I am hearing a lot of people talking about frustration Please continue to enjoy your trains We are blessed to be in this hobby Enjoy your collection I enjoy mine and ot is a humble collection.I have some nice stuff,it doesn't compare to many others,but I enjoy it
Thank You for sharing your frustrations regarding the show and what is going on in the hobby. You are real and sharing what many are also frustrated with. Love seeing the layouts 👍🔥🙏💪❤️🇺🇸 The crummy economy has filtered into everything, even our hobbies.
I appreciate it Rab... I hope there is some sort of turn in the market in the near future. The new items are getting pretty pricey, so I've always been able to satisfy my urges with the second-hand items. Not so much this past year, though. Almost everything I've bought has been new, and that adds up fast!!!
@@TheLEMRR That new things are pricey is largely a result of inflation. Let's take a $35 Athearn Blue Box "no frills" locomotive of 1982 and run it through the US Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index inflation calculator -- that $35 of September 1982 when I really started getting in to model trains, would now in September 2024 sell for $112 and change, and that's without directional lighting, without DCC, without sound, without ANY factory applied details, and with an open frame motor instead of a can motor.
I have attended many train shows both as a seller of some of my train collection and as a buyer of mostly used O scale toy trains. As you mentioned the hardest thing to find is a good buy on both new and older trains. The manufactures, especially Lionel no longer seem to want to sell products to people like me that have permeant year round layouts and want new trains but at reasonable prices. Engines that start at several hundred dollars and now top out at over one thousand dollars will never run on my layout. I have never paid much more than a hundred dollars for my engines and they all have the basics of horn or whistle, smoke if it’s a steam engine. I don’t need all those fancy electronic extras that must be causing these huge price increases. Even simple freight cars are getting too high. Box cars well detailed in the past could be had for around $20.00 to $30.00 now are around $60.00 to $90.00 each. Thank God for Menards they seem to be the only one trying to cater to the family train operator market today for new items. With these prices the main attraction of train shows will be like you noted seeing club layouts since the dealers at these shows do not have lower priced inventory to sell.
@@johnchambers8528 I found so many great deals at this show last year that we had to start piling items in the back seat of the car because the trunk got too full. Then my local show at the end of the year was a little thin. The spring show was the first time I walked away from one with absolutely nothing. I was hoping this show would have some nice second hand items, but sadly, that just wasn’t the case. Thanks for stopping by!
I've experienced the same thing - bringing home all my money in some cases. I think some of the dealers are retiring - let's face it, most of them are older, and I don't blame them. Who wants to haul a trailer around multiple states and drag everything in and out of it multiple times a year. The other thing is I think manufacturers have much more data than they did in the past. They have a really good idea of how many PRR engines they will sell and don't make more than that. P2K (in HO) made thousands of every road name and you can still find new engines on dealer shelves. I don't think that really happens anymore. Manufacturers that used to need to get rid of inventory have far less inventory to get rid of, meaning less deals for us at a show.
It would definitely seem that Precision Scale Railroading has trickled down to the hobby as well, lol. Maybe folks are holding onto their older units and that is causing less to be available on the second-hand market. Thanks for visiting!
You nailed it. Vendors are rude. Prices are stupid inflated. Deals are far and few between. I think the dealers like their stuff too much based on pricing. I literally left the show empty handed. Next day, I picked up a large box of Fastrack on Facebook for 1/3 the prices of the show vendors. I doubt I will ever buy from the shows. Fun to look, but until these dealers get their greedy heads out of their arse, I can buy all I want from other sources for much much less. My opinion? Greedy old folk resentful of the reality that values have dropped! Hoping for suckers. I was amazed at the scams! And scams they are. Hobby Lobby items marked up 7 to 10 times!!! No joke! 80.00 diesels priced at 250!!! Hope they all enjoy carrying their crap show to show. No one is buying at those prices!!!!
@@Curious_Skeptic there are definitely a disturbing number of folks that do the turn and burn at 100% above retail. I suppose it only takes one uninformed buyer to support that philosophy - but it doesn’t make it right.
As a used dealer what I am running into is the people putting on the shows are charging more every year for their tables, which you have to make enough sales to break even on the tables and then make a profit after that. It is hard. I enjoy the shows, dealers and used items. New have their place and I don't see any better prices at shows for new, compared to mail order. Crowds to me have been pretty good, and they scrutinize before buying, but they do. I usually sell a good portion unless its a smaller show. My goal is to sell and rotate my inventory around and move used collection items I've purchased that I don't want. I have accomplished that, but my issue I I keep buying, lol. So, back to more shows.
So I was one of the dealers at the show. What I noticed is that most people, that model HO, went to places like Spring Creek model trains first and Bought everything they wanted brand new so it had a warranty, Then walked around with no money. I sell new and used stuff and the prices on new items from manufacturers have gone up. The issue is that these ‘Big Hobbyshops’ are lowering the prices on new stuff so much because they sell in volume. So our little tables at Train shows have higher prices since I can’t sell let’s say 50 items of just 1 sku number. What they loose in one sale is made up in selling that many of one thing. Sadly that doesn’t work for everyone else. Especially when it comes to online sales. There are some brand new items that I can only make 10% on just because other places have it so cheap.
I feel for the retailers - especially O and S. HO and N always seem to have plentiful supply and engagement. I've been a seller at a couple shows and I know how much work goes into it. It has to make sense, or you just can't justify the time, effort and money to be a vendor. I'm just beginning to wonder where all the modern O scale items are hiding on the second-hand market these days. Thanks for visiting the channel and best of luck at the remaining shows this year.
@@TheLEMRR so not many people know this, but Lionel especially has one of the worst dealer markdowns in the industry, atlas O scale is just as bad. MTH isn’t as bad but still up there. Everything now except for Bachmann and a few sound manufacturers is made in a production batch. Once that batch is sold out, good luck finding it. Back in the day, Lionel or Athearn would make thousands of the same item over the course of 6 years. Nowadays it’s maybe in the hundreds in the course of 1 shipment of said sku number. I saw plenty of used Lionel from the 30’s to 90’s. Not as much ‘modern’ Lionel.
@@beatletrainfan129 I have no doubt the margins are getting thinner and thinner for the retailers of new items. It's like they want you to sell in bulk volume, but then don't give you enough of what will sell quickly to do so. The buying public often is ignorant or doesn't care about the retailer's plight. I owned a small car dealership and it always felt like customers purchasing a $6K car thought I was making $10K on them. I just rolled with it - they either appreciated me or they didn't. Our average net margin was about 7-12%. The hobby shops at the show with new items seemed to be some of the busiest compared to those with preowned tables. I always see more post war and MPC era items versus the newer modern items that we run on our layout.
With me being retired, I find that I buy most of my railroad supplies secondhand. I do buy the occasional brand new locomotives but my rolling stock and even the building kits are used. It’s the only way for me to afford the hobby. I do like going to Train shows and will be at York and enjoy the challenge of finding a good deal,when I sell stuff that I no longer enjoy having even though I buy it used for the most part I find you still lose money. It’s never a break even hobby. I would rather sell it off cheaper than when I bought it just so I don’t have to lug it back-and-forth from the few local train shows I do and you’re right that steel mill facility was phenomenal. Keep the faith brother.👍
@@denniswade1335 I wonder if some just hope to bump into an impulsive buyer? Possibly. Sometimes I think some just go to the shows to get out of the house or away from their wives. Most vendors are pretty awesome tho. I also like running into the hobby store owners and meeting them.
@@TheLEMRR I do enjoy talking to some of the vendors as well, heading out to the York show this week. You know how it is, you always find something you didn't know you need.
I usually go to this show. I unfortunately had to work all day Saturday and other plans on Sunday. I’m glad to hear that I’m not the only one that has noticed this trend. Same ole stuff and want top dollar. Deals are harder to find. Some of the new stock vendors won’t budge an inch on their prices. I guess it just means I’ll be saving money 😅
I went on Sunday and managed to score some decent deals, but wasn't able to come home with quite as much as I wanted for my money. The thing is, I'm someone who appreciates older stuff and even had a conversation with a vendor about old Atlas "Yellow Box" locomotives while buying one, and his eyes lit up when I mentioned how I had a few more at home and loved how they were built like tanks. The detail on newer models is incredible, but is it truly _necessary_ for the average buyer? This, coupled with the limited production batches seems to have put the industry in an odd spot. I saw a whole bunch of people prowling the Spring Creek tables but not as many as for the vendors selling older stuff. I'm not quite sure where this is going to lead, but it has me weary.
Great observation on the state of the hobby! I saw it over 40 years ago,I produced a weekly train show for the syndicated TV market. I could not get any help from the toy train manufacturs.I designed a set to be sold on the show and they wanted me to guarantee the entire production run. One of the founders,of a leading supplier,still has his name on the company, chewed me out for saying that one of the displays, presented on the show had over a million dollars worth of models."That will discourage buyers! Even though the show would bring in new people to the hobby, he was so set on immediate greed. They did it to themselves.Even the legacy carriers and associations gave me a hard time. Only Santa Fe's Mr.Mike Martin gave assistance. He recognized the opportunity to grow the base.
Wow - thanks for the cool backstory. If the hobby were in danger, according to manufacturers, then I doubt there'd be folks spending $50K+ for 7.5" live steam and the like. Always appreciate folks dropping by and sprinkling tidbits of history into the comments. Cheers!
@@TheLEMRR Speaking of live steam, My good friend, legendary Chet Peterson,owner of RR supply used to have customers drop 25-50K on an engine for their backyard runs.
The shift to online retail, online auctions and built to order has had a real impact on train shows over the past 20 years. The TCA York show is a good example, since it’s primarily a buying and selling show with few layouts. Its attendance and number of dealers has gone down year over year since around 2009ish. Aside from a brief reprieve at the first post pandemic show, the trend continues. This includes a lot of the best dealers with new product. Pre 2008 dealers would always have the latest products for great prices. Thats no longer the case. Train shows that are growing focus more and more on layouts and events, especially for families. These are things people can’t get online. I’m afraid that when I go to York next week there simply won’t be much interesting there.
I hope everyone at York, buyers AND sellers, have a great event! Hopefully you'll find some great items. Based on the three shows I've attended this year, I just can't justify the 5+ hour drive and related expenses to attend York with the risk of coming away empty-handed again.
@@TheLEMRR a lot of my friends feel the same way. Fortunately my wife’s family lives in the Baltimore area, so we already have a reason to be in the area.
I would completely second this. I'm far from an expert about what is going on. I just got back into the hobby this year, after about a 30 year hiatus. I luckily still have most of the rolling stock from when I was a kid and young adult and had a layout with my dad. I couldn't save the layout when it was time to sell the family home. But I saved most of the good stuff. Anyway, things have obviously changed a lot since the early 90's when I sort of stopped paying attention and had to concentrate on things like a career, etc. But what Glenn outlined are two things that have changed the most. The move to online sales doesn't surprise me at all. That's just the way our society has gone with everything. I've found the best things and stuff I really wanted, (used HO rolling stock, parts, etc..) primary online. The thing that has surprised me is just how new items from many manufacturers are released. Everything seems to have a presale reservation. And if you don't jump when those happen, you may well never see that item in a train shop or show. And then there are the few places where you have to "join a club", where you pay money to get better prices or something. I'm not even clear how they work to be honest because it turns me off so much. But there is clearly some retailers where there are two tiers of customers. Those who pay for the privilege of better prices or being first in line or something... and those that don't. Sounds like they took their cues from the big entertainment industry unfortunately. Those two things kind of surprised me. The last surprise to me was all the consolidation and buying up of manufactures. Like Walthers buying up Life Like, etc.. I guess that's just like everything else in our society as well and shouldn't really be that big of a surprise. But it was a little bit.
@@rbingraham things have definitely changed. At least it seems like you’re in HO, so the most plentiful support exists for you. Good luck on your new layout!
I go to this show every year and I have to say this year it just seemed like something was missing. I enjoyed myself and bought some things and will continue to attend this show but as you I noticed the same things for sale over the last few years. It must be hard on vendors and I hope things turn around I would really miss attending shows like this.
Couldn't agree more! This is a long-standing show and I don't think it will go anywhere. Hopefully the stale inventory starts to turn over and inject some fresh life into the next one.
It's the economy. People are having to spend more for basics, so they don't have the money to spend on hobbies. When inventory sits dealers have less to spend to get new items. Also, most Estate liquidators are selling online where they get more money instead of selling to local dealers.
@@KandRCustomModels this is always a nice show and the turnout was good. Just hoping I start to see some “new” second hand pieces moving forward. Thx for stopping by!
With online choices I find less reasons to attend train shows. Although most of what I own is used. I have only been to one train show this year. I have a lot of stuff on preorder or I buy mostly from my local hobby store. That’s where most of my money will be going. Seldom do I find great deals at train shows.
@@goarmysleepinthemud. I’ve made a couple good relationships with retailers and I think it’s definitely worthwhile to support your local or favorite brick and mortar store
The O scale hobby has definitely changed. Manufacturers aren't over-producing like they used to do. It almost seems that if you don't pre-order it, then you aren't getting it. Which trickles down to less used stuff at shows. Cheaper Weaver and K-line stuff is getting harder to find.
This is the one thing i hate about this hobby now, It's been 10 years since the built to order nonsense. I feel bad for the young hobbist from the ages 12-25 years old who can't afford to buy multiple engines at once. But some dealers do buy extras like trainworld and mr. muffins.
@DelHudson1 I literally saw zero 3-rail Weaver and K-Line scale items at the show this time. That has never happened. There was a fellow that had a 2-rail estate he was selling - all Weaver and some brass. His prices were fair, but I would’ve had another $30 into each freight car just for trucks and couplers… oh well, lol
@@TheLEMRR That's true, Also The dealers also support this because they don't want to have too much inventory which i don't get because certain locomotives sellout with 6 months. It's rolling stock they are stuck with since rolling stock is very easy to get cheap in the used market. 90% of my rolling stock is used.
Most model train enthusiasts are looking for bargains. Model train hobbyists buy from online catalogs and train shops and tend to spend more. I'm a bargain hunter. I do most of my shopping from the boxes and crates under the sellers tables. Manufacturers have gotten way to expensive for the average new person in the hobby. I hobby in HO scale. 1:87. My other itch in my gettup, is the lack of modern era structures, vehicles and railroad cars available. But I still enjoy train shows.
@@Tom-ru6rb I was in Dayton yesterday but was told the show was weak, so I didn’t bother. The hunt for great deals drives me, so the lack of second hand items right now just means you have to dig in.
Exactly! I don't buy new! I have had beyond amazing success and fun staying out of shows. It's obscene that this hobby is full of greedy peeps. Honestly, vendors stop complaining! If there's no profit, pick a better business!!! You can't milk money out of average folk who just want to enjoy a once approachable family hobby. Always elites in all hobbies. Now, vendors seem to think everyone should pay top dollar.
@Curious_Skeptic valid points. I have relationships with some retail store owners and I can assure you, they aren’t wealthy. I wish the manufacturers would figure out how to produce a quality product at an affordable price. I feel like people have made less new product purchases over the past couple years and that has had a trickle down affect on the 2nd hand market, which is where I enjoy spending the majority of my time shopping. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
@@TheLEMRR As said, if there's no money in the hobby, it is time to face facts and find better ways to a make a living. I'm thinking about a focus on refurbished market, along with affordable accessories and buildings. It's certainly not hard to blow away the pricing I'm seeing. I think it's important for business minded people to learn to adjust and be creative. That's where success is found. You can't just sit around and cry about how hard things are. Use your head. Right now, it's all about patience! Wait out the market. I doubt we'll see NEW come down any time soon. We will see 2nd hand market level out. The assumption is that you can charge more for 2nd hand just because new is so expensive. Very counter intuitive to the actual consumers! They will eventually end up not buy anything at all and there goes the hobby again down the toilet.
When a basic ho scale rolling stock is $50 each who can afford to put a new together, plus all the hobby supplies are going up it seems weekly. The only thing people can afford is secondhand or just keep running the same stuff.
@@willyjimmy8881 stuff is getting up there. I buy second hand mainly for that reason. Even scenery items when possible. That said… reasonably priced second hand supply seems very thin.
My complaint is that I can’t find any one who fixes n scale locomotives. I am older with vision and flexibility issues and can’t do it myself. I don’t want to give it up as my 4 year old grandson is getting interested. Living in the Baltimore area I would think that there would be someone.
Most of my collection is second hand You Re suffering from experience and too many trains.idf such thing exists 😅 You are getting selective I actually went to a show and didn't buy anything,yet I had a great time Here's a little tip Just go to the show and socialize and if a good deal comes along buy it See you spent time with your brother.that is valuable I will be going to York I will have fun even if I snag a few items I'm saving for Lionel's y6 and the new vision line Hudson 844 is also on the wishlist
@@williamkolina3988 very good points. I’d spend $10 for a 4-hr afternoon with good company any time. Once I got past the disappointment of not really finding any trains, I had a nice afternoon.
The reality is $$$$$ Lionel is now priced way out of reach of the average family. Put in a few Mernards stands and watch product sell. As for used equipment, prices are following the expensive catalog offerings from Lionel. It’s simply unaffordable for most people.
@@Machia52612 I agree on the price hikes. Strangely to me is the seeming lack of second offerings. Almost like there has been very few items entering the used market. Maybe folks are holding on to their items longer.
We Have a Show Coming Up Tomorrow And We Are Looking Forward To That what We Find There. If they Want They Should Try to go 4 Days Or 3 still Would Of Went we Have Little Money To Spend The Factory maybe there Not producing a Better model I think politics are Killing the Fun Out of it. Hear Me Out Polititons Stop Trying to Killing Us Ok!
for me at least I have over 200 engines. so I am getting more picky and am more focused in my collecting. as for engines all the new releases from lionel and atlas are getting pricey. that in conjuction with lack of parts for older engines from lionel. those to factors play a big part in used items. my show in st.louis is getting the same as yours is. guess it is what it is. also the economy and the cost of living has taken away at least for me any extra hobby funds at the moment. have a great day.
What you mentioned is the reason for what you are seeing. Everyone wants everything cheap. Not willingly to buy what the sellers need to make a living. If I see what I’m looking for at a show I pay for it. Support the dealers and don’t be so cheap. 😊
@@Cbtrainnut believe me, I spend when I see something I want. This show literally had nothing I wanted. Six buildings worth. Last year I filled up the trunk of a Cadillac…
That's not always true. I have purchased half of my trains new but when it comes to used stuff that's common, I'm not paying close to msrp for MTH protosound 2.0 engines from 2000-2004 where i have to take the thing apart to put a BCR in it. There are exceptions though.
Most of the locos at this show that were scale sized O were basic Protosound units in the $295 - $350 price range. Saw a couple TMCC units in the $500 range. But overall ,very few options. To me it's wild for something conventional only, almost 30 years old and has questionable electronics to be so expensive. I didn't see a single PS3, Atlas Master or Legacy locomotive at the entire show this year.
@@TheLEMRR Yup, Even at the Springfield train show i see some of the same dealers selling the same stuff. It seem like every other year there's some good stuff there. I never been to york yet but i hear decent things about it but i know the old days were better. I primarily buy used stuff i used to have with the occasional new train.
Meeeh..What's with those effing plastic re-railer-track sections !!! Thank God for 'fast-forward' to 8:55-9:45 only... Ugh. This ain't model railroading.. And all that yellow earth-moving equipment... Ugh !!
The rerailers are there to serve as connectors between sections of the layout. Model railroading is whatever you want it to be. That's known as "Rule #1."
@@irwinsjournal I agree. Some like some things, some don’t. The hobby can cover all the bases for many differing tastes! Appreciate the comment and also the visit to the channel! Cheers
Train friends
I am hearing a lot of people talking about frustration
Please continue to enjoy your trains
We are blessed to be in this hobby
Enjoy your collection
I enjoy mine and ot is a humble collection.I have some nice stuff,it doesn't compare to many others,but I enjoy it
@@williamkolina3988 Run ‘em, look at ‘em, share ‘em. All of the above! Thanks for visiting the channel!
Thank You for sharing your frustrations regarding the show and what is going on in the hobby. You are real and sharing what many are also frustrated with. Love seeing the layouts 👍🔥🙏💪❤️🇺🇸 The crummy economy has filtered into everything, even our hobbies.
I appreciate it Rab... I hope there is some sort of turn in the market in the near future. The new items are getting pretty pricey, so I've always been able to satisfy my urges with the second-hand items. Not so much this past year, though. Almost everything I've bought has been new, and that adds up fast!!!
@@TheLEMRR That new things are pricey is largely a result of inflation. Let's take a $35 Athearn Blue Box "no frills" locomotive of 1982 and run it through the US Bureau of Labor Statistics Consumer Price Index inflation calculator -- that $35 of September 1982 when I really started getting in to model trains, would now in September 2024 sell for $112 and change, and that's without directional lighting, without DCC, without sound, without ANY factory applied details, and with an open frame motor instead of a can motor.
@@scottfw7169 I 100% agree on that point!
I have attended many train shows both as a seller of some of my train collection and as a buyer of mostly used O scale toy trains. As you mentioned the hardest thing to find is a good buy on both new and older trains. The manufactures, especially Lionel no longer seem to want to sell products to people like me that have permeant year round layouts and want new trains but at reasonable prices. Engines that start at several hundred dollars and now top out at over one thousand dollars will never run on my layout. I have never paid much more than a hundred dollars for my engines and they all have the basics of horn or whistle, smoke if it’s a steam engine. I don’t need all those fancy electronic extras that must be causing these huge price increases. Even simple freight cars are getting too high. Box cars well detailed in the past could be had for around $20.00 to $30.00 now are around $60.00 to $90.00 each. Thank God for Menards they seem to be the only one trying to cater to the family train operator market today for new items. With these prices the main attraction of train shows will be like you noted seeing club layouts since the dealers at these shows do not have lower priced inventory to sell.
@@johnchambers8528 I found so many great deals at this show last year that we had to start piling items in the back seat of the car because the trunk got too full. Then my local show at the end of the year was a little thin. The spring show was the first time I walked away from one with absolutely nothing. I was hoping this show would have some nice second hand items, but sadly, that just wasn’t the case. Thanks for stopping by!
I've experienced the same thing - bringing home all my money in some cases. I think some of the dealers are retiring - let's face it, most of them are older, and I don't blame them. Who wants to haul a trailer around multiple states and drag everything in and out of it multiple times a year. The other thing is I think manufacturers have much more data than they did in the past. They have a really good idea of how many PRR engines they will sell and don't make more than that. P2K (in HO) made thousands of every road name and you can still find new engines on dealer shelves. I don't think that really happens anymore. Manufacturers that used to need to get rid of inventory have far less inventory to get rid of, meaning less deals for us at a show.
It would definitely seem that Precision Scale Railroading has trickled down to the hobby as well, lol. Maybe folks are holding onto their older units and that is causing less to be available on the second-hand market. Thanks for visiting!
You nailed it. Vendors are rude. Prices are stupid inflated. Deals are far and few between. I think the dealers like their stuff too much based on pricing.
I literally left the show empty handed. Next day, I picked up a large box of Fastrack on Facebook for 1/3 the prices of the show vendors. I doubt I will ever buy from the shows. Fun to look, but until these dealers get their greedy heads out of their arse, I can buy all I want from other sources for much much less.
My opinion? Greedy old folk resentful of the reality that values have dropped! Hoping for suckers.
I was amazed at the scams! And scams they are. Hobby Lobby items marked up 7 to 10 times!!! No joke! 80.00 diesels priced at 250!!! Hope they all enjoy carrying their crap show to show. No one is buying at those prices!!!!
@@Curious_Skeptic there are definitely a disturbing number of folks that do the turn and burn at 100% above retail. I suppose it only takes one uninformed buyer to support that philosophy - but it doesn’t make it right.
As a used dealer what I am running into is the people putting on the shows are charging more every year for their tables, which you have to make enough sales to break even on the tables and then make a profit after that. It is hard. I enjoy the shows, dealers and used items. New have their place and I don't see any better prices at shows for new, compared to mail order. Crowds to me have been pretty good, and they scrutinize before buying, but they do. I usually sell a good portion unless its a smaller show. My goal is to sell and rotate my inventory around and move used collection items I've purchased that I don't want. I have accomplished that, but my issue I I keep buying, lol. So, back to more shows.
@@danbalmer1 sounds like you have a good system. Best of luck in future shows and thanks for supporting the hobby
So I was one of the dealers at the show. What I noticed is that most people, that model HO, went to places like Spring Creek model trains first and Bought everything they wanted brand new so it had a warranty, Then walked around with no money. I sell new and used stuff and the prices on new items from manufacturers have gone up. The issue is that these ‘Big Hobbyshops’ are lowering the prices on new stuff so much because they sell in volume. So our little tables at Train shows have higher prices since I can’t sell let’s say 50 items of just 1 sku number. What they loose in one sale is made up in selling that many of one thing.
Sadly that doesn’t work for everyone else. Especially when it comes to online sales. There are some brand new items that I can only make 10% on just because other places have it so cheap.
I feel for the retailers - especially O and S. HO and N always seem to have plentiful supply and engagement. I've been a seller at a couple shows and I know how much work goes into it. It has to make sense, or you just can't justify the time, effort and money to be a vendor. I'm just beginning to wonder where all the modern O scale items are hiding on the second-hand market these days. Thanks for visiting the channel and best of luck at the remaining shows this year.
@@TheLEMRR so not many people know this, but Lionel especially has one of the worst dealer markdowns in the industry, atlas O scale is just as bad. MTH isn’t as bad but still up there. Everything now except for Bachmann and a few sound manufacturers is made in a production batch. Once that batch is sold out, good luck finding it. Back in the day, Lionel or Athearn would make thousands of the same item over the course of 6 years. Nowadays it’s maybe in the hundreds in the course of 1 shipment of said sku number. I saw plenty of used Lionel from the 30’s to 90’s. Not as much ‘modern’ Lionel.
@@beatletrainfan129 I have no doubt the margins are getting thinner and thinner for the retailers of new items. It's like they want you to sell in bulk volume, but then don't give you enough of what will sell quickly to do so. The buying public often is ignorant or doesn't care about the retailer's plight. I owned a small car dealership and it always felt like customers purchasing a $6K car thought I was making $10K on them. I just rolled with it - they either appreciated me or they didn't. Our average net margin was about 7-12%. The hobby shops at the show with new items seemed to be some of the busiest compared to those with preowned tables. I always see more post war and MPC era items versus the newer modern items that we run on our layout.
With me being retired, I find that I buy most of my railroad supplies secondhand. I do buy the occasional brand new locomotives but my rolling stock and even the building kits are used. It’s the only way for me to afford the hobby. I do like going to Train shows and will be at York and enjoy the challenge of finding a good deal,when I sell stuff that I no longer enjoy having even though I buy it used for the most part I find you still lose money. It’s never a break even hobby. I would rather sell it off cheaper than when I bought it just so I don’t have to lug it back-and-forth from the few local train shows I do and you’re right that steel mill facility was phenomenal. Keep the faith brother.👍
@@OgdenTunkRR I will. Fortunately, we don’t “need” items for the layout. But it’s always nice to scratch that itch, lol.
I try to get to shows the southeastern part of Pennsylvania and usually look for second hand. Sometimes I question the prices some vendors charge.
@@denniswade1335 I wonder if some just hope to bump into an impulsive buyer? Possibly. Sometimes I think some just go to the shows to get out of the house or away from their wives. Most vendors are pretty awesome tho. I also like running into the hobby store owners and meeting them.
@@TheLEMRR I do enjoy talking to some of the vendors as well, heading out to the York show this week. You know how it is, you always find something you didn't know you need.
@@denniswade1335 always keep that need/want ratio in the justifiable sweet spot, lol
the GENERAL LEE 01 jumping lol
Creative! lolol
I usually go to this show. I unfortunately had to work all day Saturday and other plans on Sunday. I’m glad to hear that I’m not the only one that has noticed this trend. Same ole stuff and want top dollar. Deals are harder to find. Some of the new stock vendors won’t budge an inch on their prices. I guess it just means I’ll be saving money 😅
@@Crookedriverandeasternrr lol - I guess that’s the silver lining. I’ll still be watching auctions to see if something speaks to me
I went on Sunday and managed to score some decent deals, but wasn't able to come home with quite as much as I wanted for my money. The thing is, I'm someone who appreciates older stuff and even had a conversation with a vendor about old Atlas "Yellow Box" locomotives while buying one, and his eyes lit up when I mentioned how I had a few more at home and loved how they were built like tanks. The detail on newer models is incredible, but is it truly _necessary_ for the average buyer? This, coupled with the limited production batches seems to have put the industry in an odd spot. I saw a whole bunch of people prowling the Spring Creek tables but not as many as for the vendors selling older stuff. I'm not quite sure where this is going to lead, but it has me weary.
@@jimmyseaver3647 I can’t see prices coming down on the new items, regardless of scale, I do hope the second hand market remains consistent.
Great observation on the state of the hobby! I saw it over 40 years ago,I produced a weekly train show for the syndicated TV market. I could not get any help from the toy train manufacturs.I designed a set to be sold on the show and they wanted me to guarantee the entire production run. One of the founders,of a leading supplier,still has his name on the company, chewed me out for saying that one of the displays, presented on the show had over a million dollars worth of models."That will discourage buyers! Even though the show would bring in new people to the hobby, he was so set on immediate greed. They did it to themselves.Even the legacy carriers and associations gave me a hard time. Only Santa Fe's Mr.Mike Martin gave assistance. He recognized the opportunity to grow the base.
Wow - thanks for the cool backstory. If the hobby were in danger, according to manufacturers, then I doubt there'd be folks spending $50K+ for 7.5" live steam and the like. Always appreciate folks dropping by and sprinkling tidbits of history into the comments. Cheers!
@@TheLEMRR Speaking of live steam, My good friend, legendary Chet Peterson,owner of RR supply used to have customers drop 25-50K on an engine for their backyard runs.
@@frankbruno9499 no doubt. If I hit the lottery? I’ll by 10 acres and have my own outdoor railroad lolol
The shift to online retail, online auctions and built to order has had a real impact on train shows over the past 20 years. The TCA York show is a good example, since it’s primarily a buying and selling show with few layouts. Its attendance and number of dealers has gone down year over year since around 2009ish. Aside from a brief reprieve at the first post pandemic show, the trend continues. This includes a lot of the best dealers with new product. Pre 2008 dealers would always have the latest products for great prices. Thats no longer the case. Train shows that are growing focus more and more on layouts and events, especially for families. These are things people can’t get online. I’m afraid that when I go to York next week there simply won’t be much interesting there.
I hope everyone at York, buyers AND sellers, have a great event! Hopefully you'll find some great items. Based on the three shows I've attended this year, I just can't justify the 5+ hour drive and related expenses to attend York with the risk of coming away empty-handed again.
@@TheLEMRR a lot of my friends feel the same way. Fortunately my wife’s family lives in the Baltimore area, so we already have a reason to be in the area.
@@GlennFresch that’s a good enough reason to make the trip!
I would completely second this. I'm far from an expert about what is going on. I just got back into the hobby this year, after about a 30 year hiatus. I luckily still have most of the rolling stock from when I was a kid and young adult and had a layout with my dad. I couldn't save the layout when it was time to sell the family home. But I saved most of the good stuff. Anyway, things have obviously changed a lot since the early 90's when I sort of stopped paying attention and had to concentrate on things like a career, etc. But what Glenn outlined are two things that have changed the most. The move to online sales doesn't surprise me at all. That's just the way our society has gone with everything. I've found the best things and stuff I really wanted, (used HO rolling stock, parts, etc..) primary online. The thing that has surprised me is just how new items from many manufacturers are released. Everything seems to have a presale reservation. And if you don't jump when those happen, you may well never see that item in a train shop or show. And then there are the few places where you have to "join a club", where you pay money to get better prices or something. I'm not even clear how they work to be honest because it turns me off so much. But there is clearly some retailers where there are two tiers of customers. Those who pay for the privilege of better prices or being first in line or something... and those that don't. Sounds like they took their cues from the big entertainment industry unfortunately. Those two things kind of surprised me. The last surprise to me was all the consolidation and buying up of manufactures. Like Walthers buying up Life Like, etc.. I guess that's just like everything else in our society as well and shouldn't really be that big of a surprise. But it was a little bit.
@@rbingraham things have definitely changed. At least it seems like you’re in HO, so the most plentiful support exists for you. Good luck on your new layout!
The big club layouts are great!!
@@jackcurran1122 they’re cool to see and it’s nice how they can change up the modules
Neat train Show Steve.
Thanks a bunch, Hunter. Didn't bear much fruit for me this time around, unfortunately.
I go to this show every year and I have to say this year it just seemed like something was missing. I enjoyed myself and bought some things and will continue to attend this show but as you I noticed the same things for sale over the last few years. It must be hard on vendors and I hope things turn around I would really miss attending shows like this.
Couldn't agree more! This is a long-standing show and I don't think it will go anywhere. Hopefully the stale inventory starts to turn over and inject some fresh life into the next one.
It's the economy. People are having to spend more for basics, so they don't have the money to spend on hobbies. When inventory sits dealers have less to spend to get new items. Also, most Estate liquidators are selling online where they get more money instead of selling to local dealers.
all likely valid points
Train shows seem lacking lately! Thanks!
@@KandRCustomModels this is always a nice show and the turnout was good. Just hoping I start to see some “new” second hand pieces moving forward. Thx for stopping by!
With online choices I find less reasons to attend train shows. Although most of what I own is used.
I have only been to one train show this year.
I have a lot of stuff on preorder or I buy mostly from my local hobby store. That’s where most of my money will be going.
Seldom do I find great deals at train shows.
@@goarmysleepinthemud. I’ve made a couple good relationships with retailers and I think it’s definitely worthwhile to support your local or favorite brick and mortar store
The O scale hobby has definitely changed. Manufacturers aren't over-producing like they used to do. It almost seems that if you don't pre-order it, then you aren't getting it. Which trickles down to less used stuff at shows. Cheaper Weaver and K-line stuff is getting harder to find.
This is the one thing i hate about this hobby now, It's been 10 years since the built to order nonsense. I feel bad for the young hobbist from the ages 12-25 years old who can't afford to buy multiple engines at once. But some dealers do buy extras like trainworld and mr. muffins.
@DelHudson1 I literally saw zero 3-rail Weaver and K-Line scale items at the show this time. That has never happened. There was a fellow that had a 2-rail estate he was selling - all Weaver and some brass. His prices were fair, but I would’ve had another $30 into each freight car just for trucks and couplers… oh well, lol
@@R323838 the tighter production might have something to do with it
@@TheLEMRR That's true, Also The dealers also support this because they don't want to have too much inventory which i don't get because certain locomotives sellout with 6 months. It's rolling stock they are stuck with since rolling stock is very easy to get cheap in the used market. 90% of my rolling stock is used.
for sure.. I've found some great deals on rolling stock that has been on the shelves for over a decade
Most model train enthusiasts are looking for bargains. Model train hobbyists buy from online catalogs and train shops and tend to spend more. I'm a bargain hunter. I do most of my shopping from the boxes and crates under the sellers tables. Manufacturers have gotten way to expensive for the average new person in the hobby. I hobby in HO scale. 1:87. My other itch in my gettup, is the lack of modern era structures, vehicles and railroad cars available. But I still enjoy train shows.
@@Tom-ru6rb I was in Dayton yesterday but was told the show was weak, so I didn’t bother. The hunt for great deals drives me, so the lack of second hand items right now just means you have to dig in.
Exactly! I don't buy new! I have had beyond amazing success and fun staying out of shows. It's obscene that this hobby is full of greedy peeps. Honestly, vendors stop complaining! If there's no profit, pick a better business!!! You can't milk money out of average folk who just want to enjoy a once approachable family hobby. Always elites in all hobbies. Now, vendors seem to think everyone should pay top dollar.
@Curious_Skeptic valid points. I have relationships with some retail store owners and I can assure you, they aren’t wealthy. I wish the manufacturers would figure out how to produce a quality product at an affordable price. I feel like people have made less new product purchases over the past couple years and that has had a trickle down affect on the 2nd hand market, which is where I enjoy spending the majority of my time shopping. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
@@TheLEMRR As said, if there's no money in the hobby, it is time to face facts and find better ways to a make a living. I'm thinking about a focus on refurbished market, along with affordable accessories and buildings. It's certainly not hard to blow away the pricing I'm seeing. I think it's important for business minded people to learn to adjust and be creative. That's where success is found. You can't just sit around and cry about how hard things are. Use your head. Right now, it's all about patience! Wait out the market. I doubt we'll see NEW come down any time soon. We will see 2nd hand market level out. The assumption is that you can charge more for 2nd hand just because new is so expensive. Very counter intuitive to the actual consumers! They will eventually end up not buy anything at all and there goes the hobby again down the toilet.
@ yep. Totally agree
When a basic ho scale rolling stock is $50 each who can afford to put a new together, plus all the hobby supplies are going up it seems weekly. The only thing people can afford is secondhand or just keep running the same stuff.
@@willyjimmy8881 stuff is getting up there. I buy second hand mainly for that reason. Even scenery items when possible. That said… reasonably priced second hand supply seems very thin.
My complaint is that I can’t find any one who fixes n scale locomotives. I am older with vision and flexibility issues and can’t do it myself. I don’t want to give it up as my 4 year old grandson is getting interested. Living in the Baltimore area I would think that there would be someone.
That would be frustrating
Most of my collection is second hand
You Re suffering from experience and too many trains.idf such thing exists 😅
You are getting selective
I actually went to a show and didn't buy anything,yet I had a great time
Here's a little tip
Just go to the show and socialize and if a good deal comes along buy it
See you spent time with your brother.that is valuable
I will be going to York
I will have fun even if I snag a few items
I'm saving for Lionel's y6 and the new vision line Hudson
844 is also on the wishlist
@@williamkolina3988 very good points. I’d spend $10 for a 4-hr afternoon with good company any time. Once I got past the disappointment of not really finding any trains, I had a nice afternoon.
En el momento en que vi el bolso kislux , supe que tenía que tenerlo.
mmmkay...
The reality is $$$$$
Lionel is now priced way out of reach of the average family. Put in a few Mernards stands and watch product sell. As for used equipment, prices are following the expensive catalog offerings from Lionel. It’s simply unaffordable for most people.
@@Machia52612 I agree on the price hikes. Strangely to me is the seeming lack of second offerings. Almost like there has been very few items entering the used market. Maybe folks are holding on to their items longer.
We Have a Show Coming Up Tomorrow And We Are Looking Forward To That what We Find There. If they Want They Should Try to go 4 Days Or 3 still Would Of Went we Have Little Money To Spend The Factory maybe there Not producing a Better model I think politics are Killing the Fun Out of it. Hear Me Out Polititons Stop Trying to Killing Us Ok!
@@elleryparsons2433 the politicians definitely need to stay out of our hobbies, lolol
for me at least I have over 200 engines. so I am getting more picky and am more focused in my collecting. as for engines
all the new releases from lionel and atlas are getting pricey. that in conjuction with lack of parts for older engines from lionel. those to factors play a big part in used items.
my show in st.louis is getting the same as yours is. guess it is what it is.
also the economy and the cost of living has taken away at least for me any extra hobby funds at the moment. have a great day.
@@rogerglasgo4902 sounds like we are in carbon copy situations
This should be about the trains, not griping about one thing or another.
@@MisterSportscar thanks for your input
What you mentioned is the reason for what you are seeing. Everyone wants everything cheap. Not willingly to buy what the sellers need to make a living. If I see what I’m looking for at a show I pay for it. Support the dealers and don’t be so cheap. 😊
@@Cbtrainnut believe me, I spend when I see something I want. This show literally had nothing I wanted. Six buildings worth. Last year I filled up the trunk of a Cadillac…
That's not always true. I have purchased half of my trains new but when it comes to used stuff that's common, I'm not paying close to msrp for MTH protosound 2.0 engines from 2000-2004 where i have to take the thing apart to put a BCR in it. There are exceptions though.
Most of the locos at this show that were scale sized O were basic Protosound units in the $295 - $350 price range. Saw a couple TMCC units in the $500 range. But overall ,very few options. To me it's wild for something conventional only, almost 30 years old and has questionable electronics to be so expensive. I didn't see a single PS3, Atlas Master or Legacy locomotive at the entire show this year.
@@TheLEMRR Yup, Even at the Springfield train show i see some of the same dealers selling the same stuff. It seem like every other year there's some good stuff there. I never been to york yet but i hear decent things about it but i know the old days were better. I primarily buy used stuff i used to have with the occasional new train.
Same for me
Meeeh..What's with those effing plastic re-railer-track sections !!! Thank God for 'fast-forward' to 8:55-9:45 only...
Ugh. This ain't model railroading.. And all that yellow earth-moving equipment... Ugh !!
@@MarkInLA thanks for visiting the channel
The rerailers are there to serve as connectors between sections of the layout.
Model railroading is whatever you want it to be. That's known as "Rule #1."
@@irwinsjournal I agree. Some like some things, some don’t. The hobby can cover all the bases for many differing tastes! Appreciate the comment and also the visit to the channel! Cheers