Elden Ring's writer/director Hidetaka Miyazaki was asked in a Gamespot interview: "If you could take over any game franchise and had an unlimited budget, which would you pick?" His answer: "Ultima Online or EverQuest."
The E through A with S being the best comes from the Japanese school grading system as I understand it. C is 60~69%, B is 70~79%, A is 80~89%, and S (rarely ever given) is 90~100%. S stands for "Shu", meaning 'exemplary'.
It even originates from further back than school grading, but it's sufficient to say that it's just a well established grading system in Japan and as such not surprisingly also used in all manner of Japanese video games.
Yeah I was gonna say that's *_really_* common in Japanese games, RPGs in particular. Or DMC. _SSS_ SMOKIN SEXY STYLE Kinda surprised he didn't know. Sometimes I forget Tim is made of 99% Western games (not a knock on him but he is missing out on some pretty good ones).
I would say S is that 99-100% traditionally, but co-opted by western culture might include that 90-98%. A is still great, just not otherworldly great. In chess, A and S is the difference between a Grandmaster and a Super Grandmaster.
Hearing you say you don't understand the S-class being higher than A was so funny to me because as a millennial who played a lot of Japanese-made video games as a kid, they ALWAYS had S-rank as the highest! So to me it is completely ingrained as a 'normal'! Loved hearing you talk about your experience with Elden Ring and the way it is similar to a game I never got to play :)
Right? It's something I wouldn't even think about these days. The last time I was confused by this system was when I played the old 3d Sonic games as a kid, so it's just second nature now!
It's been ubiquitous with games for so long at this point that even non-Japanese games and UA-camr tier lists use it without explanation. Hearing someone not understand it is like witnessing someone from the past suddenly arriving in the present for the first time.
The letter grade system you noted in Elden Ring is basically universal among Japanese games. Not for item valuation, but for any ranking really, like sports games, rhythm games, character action games like DMC use it for feedback on combo performance. It isn't inherently easy to understand but it's common enough as a convention that no one I know complained about it.
Not only that, but I've seen western YTers when talking about western games also use it without explanation, basically expecting you to know it already. I am surprised Tim never encountered it before because it feels to me it has been convention for good part of the decade.
Further explanation for this is that it is something rooted in Japanese culture that "S" is a high grade for something. People often argue it is due to the school system using S as a grade, but I've also heard interpretations that it is related to how many superlative words in Japanese starts with an "S." It's interesting, and S being synonymous with highest quality or rarity in Japanese games is just so engrained its easy to forget it isn't a thing in other rating systems.
Yes I've seen AI voice videos about their rankings that use this system. Funnily enough if you look even 4 years back westerners would just use A+ to F- like grades but added the S tier. I had it explained as this was the "super" or "the shit" tier.
@@nebeskisrb7765 If you're a big PC gamer type guy then you're not running into a lot of Japanese games, those (the ones we got in the west) where mostly on consoles historically. PC ports did exist, but they where both relatively rare and often shoddily put together. Competent PC ports of Japanese games are a relatively recent thing, and using old ports (like Silent Hill 2 on PC) has only become a more common practice because of a combination of extensive fan-patching and them falling into abandonware status has made it, in some cases, superior to emulation. But basically if you weren't a PlayStation or Nintendo kid who got into JRPGs, Character Action Games, Resident Evil or Metal Gear Solid a lot of the conventions one takes for granted even in a game like Dark Souls might seem pretty weird.
Heh, cliffracers and their low-poly janky flapping animation, and that low bitrate screech loop. I kinda loved how they could just jump scare you, too.
You don't need to rest at any one specific site of Grace to unlock leveling. You simply need to rest at any 3 sites of Grace that exist in the open world (aka not a part of a dungeon). Melina will appear to you at the 3rd site of Grace.
My dad was an Everquest player back in the day. He picked up Elden Ring and thought the same thing and loves it because of that, so it was a pleasant shock to see this video pop in my feed!
My dad is a massive EQ fan and refuses to play Elden Ring just because I like it and think it’s so good. He would probably love it if he played it he’s just so stubborn lol
I agree that magic progression and getting better spells is pretty obtuse in Elden Ring but I like the way that you as a player can consider “who practices magic in this world?” and follow those threads to find a lot of spells and magic related things in a natural way (the obtuseness is alleviated a bit by the fact that many early game spells remain the most mana efficient and gain damage as you level up your intelligence throughout the game) Most games don’t train us to think so literally about the world but if you pay attention you will be led to more magic if you seek it out! A few examples are Sellen the first NPC and her side quest which lead you to the bodies of Azur and Lusat who are in possession of great spells/staves/armor for magic users, the mage towers in the open world that have magic related items inside, Raya Lucaria which is a magic academy and holds a ton of upgrades and spells for magic users, the Carian manor which is associated with Ranni and is owned by the family that includes the most powerful magic users in the world of Elden Ring (Rennala, Radahn, Ranni) and Sellia in Caelid which is where Radahn was taught magic and it holds some powerful things in and around it as well (night sorceries that AI do not attempt to dodge, metorite staff + rock sling in the surrounding area). I love this approach because it rewards players who explore areas that are relevant to their in game character’s class and interests, rewards understanding of the lore, and requires the player to think as if they are in the world of the game which I find to be really immersive.
Came here to basically say this, well put! I also think Souls games prioritize the feeling of mystery and discovery over ease of play. That does create the trade-off that you won't know what kind of spells you can get and where (and similarly, what weapons/Ashes of War you can get and where), but the process of discovery is exciting. Additionally, the player starts off as a lowly Tarnished who has to work with whatever they can get, which makes the first new discoveries that fit your build feel very gratifying.
Interestingly, all of your points about Elden Ring apply to Dark Souls too, apart from Elden Ring's world being more open from the start, whereas Dark Souls, while not being fully linear, has fewer paths between areas.
Perhaps the tighter, inter-connected nature of Dark Souls' maps (Lordran in particular) lent itself more to the gameplay design that was discussed in the video. 🤷
Yeah, I'm just as surprised as Tim's friend. Dark Souls is my 2nd favorite game, and literally _everything_ Tim said here about Elden Ring matches up to Dark Souls. (Besides that Elden Ring has a more 'open'-looking world, but it just looks like a 'scaled up version' of the map design of other Soulsborne games) But subtle differences can make or break a game, so I get it.
The second I saw this video I had to click. Everquest was my childhood. Probably too much of it. I can see the comparisons. Everquest is a big driver in the games I want to make. Nights in EverQuest still haunt me. Pitch dark, can't see your own hand in front of your face. Horrifying monsters that come out at night in certain areas. Random nasty creatures roaming "safe" areas. Venomous snakes biting you and learning very quickly they're not worth the exp unless your healer has cure poison. God what a wonderful game. I haven't played Elden Ring yet. I've been punishing myself by not playing it because I want to get what I'm working on done first. But soon, soon I will. The enchanter disguise self skill was great if you threw a coin on the ground and had someone sow you. You could zip around town as a piece of copper cause of that bug. Good memories. I hope I can bring the sense of exploration and adventure old games like Morrowind, EverQuest, etc gave me to my stuff. I want people to explore and discover unique things to tell their own stories. But I do agree some quality of life to clarity is important. I could go on for HOURS about EQ. What server were you on Tim? Mithaniel Marr here. :)
@@CainOnGames A bit of the same here when I started out. I cannot remember what server I originally started on as a kid. I just remember being in freeport with another player and looking at the canal next to the paladin guild that had a secret tunnel in it. The paladin I was with was afraid to go in the water cause he had chain mail on and thought he'd drown. I had just bought a cloth rope (Which was actually a belt) because I found a secret tunnel inside the canal and wanted to see if I could use the rope to climb up and see what was up there. To this day I wonder what was up at that hole where the green glow was coming from.... Probably just an empty square area! But good stories and mysteries make a great game. Thanks for jarring some great memories.
EverQuest before things were mapped and Wikied. Before the bazaar and the rush to the end game that is now what MMOs do... It was magic. You felt the world was huge. Each fight worth fighting could go bad, each session could end in death that would take hours or a lot of platinum to recover from. And without maps, Wikis and recommended leveling paths, each advancement in level or gear felt amazing. You can capture some of that feeling when a new tlp opens, or when p99 happens to do a refresh, but not really. The info is there.
I remember when they first released the Paladin epic weapon quest, thinking it was going to be this awesome world-spanning quest that would involve complex riddles and mechanics...and it ended up just being a grindfest. I was so disappointed. It felt like such a letdown knowing that it was just a matter of having a guild big enough to plow through the grind, and that I was never going to be able to do that.
@@PullingTheBasement to me, the end game was the end of the game. Max level was time for a new character in a new place I'd never explored. Mostly because the fun was in being rag tag and lost. That's a thing I never really experienced in any mmos other than asherons call, EverQuest, and anarchy online.
I’ve been trying to track down where I read it sometime ago, it was an interview in regards to King’s Field/ Demon’s Souls/ Dark Souls.. I distinctly remember Miyazaki stating that besides being heavily inspired by the ttrpg “Fighting Fantasy” he loved and was inspired by EverQuest :) I may be misremembering though and that I just had similar feelings to you, which I’m happy to hear you express the comparison because friends told me I was wrong :p
Playing a rogue in Everquest really trained you to stay alive at all costs, which is a trait that translates well into Elden Ring. When I moved from Everquest to WoW, my rogue didn't die until level 23, because Everquest had trained me to burn up all of my tricks to escape.
I played a Paladin up to 54 who, of course, died a lot with no tricks. Next character was a monk up to 70 who really only died raid pulling. Fun memories.
My favourite part about playing as a spellcaster in elden ring was finding all of the spells. I got about 90% of them without the internet And didn't really miss any of the good ones. Most spells are either found in areas you might expect to see magic, are tied to questlines from magic users, or are sold by magic users. I would really hate it if you knew where to get all of the spells or any item for that matter. Item collection is the number one reason for exploration in every souls game and is also how you get a great deal of the lore through scenic storytelling and item description. As a spellcaster my main drive is exploring to find all the best magic gear and spells in the game rather than just making enough money or experience to buy it.
Did you played or heard about Gothic 1 and 2? It's a similar type of the game. Hard combat but also good story, roleplay and especially exploring element. You would probably like it. And last year Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos were released and that is game of the year 2022 for me.
Dark Souls saga games were a life changing experience to me. Personally, from all the games I've played, they were the ones that absorbed me the most, like a good book, and I don't mean the lore, I didn't read an item description once (for the lore), I mean in making me feel that I am wanted/required to finish the game. Dunno if that makes sense.
Hello Tim! Big fan of your games! Can you please make a video on what type of game design you want to see in the future? Like what mechanics would you like to see more in games or what problems you want to see solved in video games.
In my personal opinion all the quests: 1. Go find / bring 2. Go kill Could be surprise discoveries in the open world, and will be a lot more tedious if someone set a goal for you do them Basically i am advocating for the begging and end of the quests be happening in one small area that you can stumble upon to get the dopamine hit And chain quests with stages should be absolute necessity with insanely good story because they are energy depriving Baldur’s gate 3 did an amazing job with this
I hear the criticism often of people will just go online to look things up. It’s valid, but to not have the game hold your hand so much creates awesome immersion for those that want to play “blind”. I usually do…then go through a second time and find all the things i missed. Creates amazing replay value.
I found your point on quest design and locations in Elden Ring super interesting, as I see some similarity in Fallout 1's quest design - i.e. the lack of hand holding and the need to keep track of locations and where NPCs hint without pointing directly where. Although I can completely understand it might be a con as modern games typically have more direct quest tracking. Ultimately, it is up to the player and it isn't for everyone. But as someone who grew up with Skyrim and other RPGs during that era, when I played Fallout 1 later it was super refreshing trying to explore and problem solve to find clues for questlines. And this exact feeling I had when I was playing Elden Ring - I don't think it was as difficult as people made it out to be but I think it's because from the beginning it was doing something similar to Fallout 1
I still miss those days when people that would train the griffon to the east commonlands tunnel where everyone bartered. 😂 To this day I’ve still never had a better time playing a game than those EverQuest days.
Watching/listening to these videos every morning is becoming a staple of my day - this one in particular had me grinning ear to ear just hearing you analyze and compare. Thanks so much, Tim!
I super appreciate your perspective on this, knowing who you are and your achievements. I might disagree with some of it, but, regardless, it is FASCINATING hearing from a hardcore gamer (and a DEV, especially) that I respect, and all of your opinions of the weird stuff encountered in different games. I feel like if we went camping or something, we could talk and argue and drink beer all night about why such-and-such mechanic wasn't good or what design decisions in what game should have been a different way or why not. For example, I think a lot of inconsistency and chaos in the FromSoft games has been incredibly invigorating in the same way an earworm has been, and creates a meta group-memory for gamers to discuss and laugh or cry about together. Like... a lot of that stuff is so weird that it's beautiful, and most developers are so afraid to stray from a beaten path and just polish away any and all of that weird character that makes those games so unique. A lot of games try to do what From does, but very few actually achieve the same level of mood and experience; there's definitely an x-factor there and I dont think making it "easier" or "more intuitive" would necessarily be better. From games have ended up being this weird acquired taste, similar to fermented foods. Edit: also, JoJo. Jojo's bizzare adventure is the same acquired-taste energy.
6:49 Thank you, Tim, for expressing with words what I could not, up until this point! I never could really figure out why, in Elden Ring and previous Souls titles, (excluding Bloodborne) why I would want to use one weapon over another, if the one I was currently using was already effective, and similar to a new one I'd find, post-upgrade. Word salad aside, hopefully you didn't spend any time reading this one, thanks for that.
7:34 another excellent point! I often found myself not even wanting to engage with certain NPCs/questlines in Elden Ring/Dark souls 3 because of how vague they progressed. I didn't want to have to look a solution up online, or else risk completely failing said NPC/questline, with no explanation as to how I failed it or how I should have/could have gone about progressing.
Reflecting on my time playing EverQuest, I have to agree, there's a lot of similarities. What jumps out to me as similar is how both games have highly dangerous, atmospheric (for its time), immersive worlds. The games can both very easily give you an "in over your head" feeling, but simultaneously make you stand back and marvel at the scope of it all. Great insight, it makes me nostalgic!
I think a lot of those "questionable" design decision you brought up, which are often praised / defended by the fromsoft fans, were significant contributing factors to why dark souls was so very popular. Dark souls shook up the industry by leaning into more esoteric design and game mechanics that were more reminiscent of hardcore older games in a time when most AAA games were becoming more and more streamlined, more and more casual. It was a counter-culture that seemed to tell gamers who wanted a greater challenge that there were still games out there for them. You've pointed out how a lot of these things weren't new, but actually pulled from older games - but I would say they still felt fresh against the competition in the early 2010s. Now though, the souls games are a known quantity (after demon souls, 3 dark souls, sekiro, elden ring, bloodborne) and so it's less about being fresh and interesting, and more about leaning into the formula that skyrocketed them to being a household name. They shake things up a little with each release, but I think if they outright dropped some of those mechanics you question, they might also start dropping some of their fanbase in the process. Either way though, nice video.
I'm in a similar boat. I could never get into the Dark Souls games when i tried them but Elden Ring was a great experience for me even if I never got around to finishing it. Still had a good time
Рік тому+2
Interesting thing about Morrowind is that it almost looks like an accidentally good game in retrospect. I love Morrowind to this day, precisely because it is so unique compared to what came after. I assume the change to a more handholding experience was a calculated move to reach more audiences, but I wonder what could have been, had these games been more like Elden Ring, which still reached a lot of players.
I miss old game boxes. Those old EQ covers were great. And the goodies they gave away with them were a reason to get them alone. To this day I’ve never received a game world map made from actual cloth except from non collectors edition EQ expansions.
FromSoft looked at the griefing in games like EQ and made improvements by... adding a recurring NPC who tricks you into really bad areas and knocks you down holes. This way, even the offline players get to share in the fun!
If you could elaborate, what would be an example of a weapon comparison system you would prefer instead of what Eldin Ring and EverQuest presented? And for that matter, what other gameplay systems or mechanics do you prefer in games?
This was an interesting video because I think it's the first time I heard someone talk about Elden Ring who wasn't a big fan of Fromsoft's other games but still liked it. I've heard other intelligent people talk about the series before but usually I've found they love all of the Souls games.
If you ran into the high elf wizard Mungbean, the dark elf necromancer Evilishessness, or the half elf bard Poshh (part of the Spicy Girls guild)...then you met me in EQ!
I love to hear those "ramblings" and insights about other games - any thoughts on modding? Your favorite mods for games? You think modding tools for Outer Wolrds could have been expanded? Will it be for the sequel?
I am a little confused that you didn't like the previous Souls games but you did like Elden Ring because all the things you listed from ER that reminded you of EverQuest... Were in all those previous souls games. The griefing, the high level enemies you take on, even mimic spell, those were all in previous Dark Souls games. So my question is What made you like Elden Ring better than Dark Souls? Was it the open world or something else? This isn't meant to be some "gotcha" by the way, I'm just genuinely curious about what appealed to you in Elden Ring that was missing from Dark Souls. Thanks for another great video,Tim! 👍
I'm 34, played both , and I can see what he means but am curious how that didn't apply to the previous souls borne titles as there's more than a few "this enemy is much too tough for a player/can one shot a player who's starting out but you can come back later "
Hi Tim! interesting perspective and parallels you've drawn from comparing these 2, also found the mimic veil as a really cool mechanic, regarding what you've said about inconsistent bosses, some bosses being harder than others based on the class you're playing while fighting, I believe this is a good choice making replays feel different and challenging even underestimating a boss that was initially trivial, I never played a souls game as a magic user but tried it first time in elden ring and got a huge surprise when the tree sentinel just returned my spells right at me, also agree when you compared horse-back fights vs on-foot, some fights I couldn't win without riding while others I chose deliberately on foot for a bit of an challenge unfortunately many of the fights cannot be fought on horse-back also I think they made some things in elden ring difficult to find/figure out while having the messaging system in mind, one player discovers a hidden path puts a message that others will learn about and proceed to discover that path, I am also curious what is your perspective on the quests of elden ring, I found them a bit difficult to follow since I played rarely and ended up forgetting where I was in each one, but I get the feeling they are built somewhat like puzzles that require a bit of effort to solve yet are rewarding to do so, comparing this to some rpgs that offer ample choices in quests leading to many custom outcomes I believe and mixed approach would be best
1999 EverQuest player here (bar none, the most amazing video game experience of my life). When I played it, I found Dark Souls to be the closest experience I've had to EverQuest. Haven't played Elden Ring yet, but looking forward to it.
please do more videos like this! talking about a recent game you really liked, or if a new game reminds you of another game. you're really good at articulating
You might have stated your opinion of this in another video, but I'd love to hear your thoughts regarding JRPGs since they take a very different design philosophy when compared to Western RPGs. I've been replaying Final Fantasy VII using some mods to upgrade the experience, and I'm almost done Persona 5 Royal, and while I love both of these games, they take a much more linear approach to game design when compared to Fallout or Baldurs Gate. I personally like playing both of these games since I like the variety, but it would be interesting to have your input on this.
They take the more linear approach because the world building is significantly less of a focus, to the point of being essentially a non-aspect, in favor of character writing within a real world setting that the player is already familiar with if not living within themselves. It's just different methods of delivering plot and narrative, SMT for example as a comparison to it's spin-off franchise Persona has very little character dialogue and is almost entirely reliant on its world building to tell its story, where you as a player are often just dropped right into a mid-apocalyptic hellscape and expected to either already know what you need to do, or learn as you play and take the uphill battle against God.
@@Vanity0666 Funnily enough, I find SMT to be quite the outlier for JRPGs. At least, with SMT 3 and 5, since you typically do a lot of world building through exploration and side quests. The combat in every SMT I've played has also pulled me in through its combat as well. I kind of wish more games tried that formula. Honestly, I'd say a lot of my favorite JRPGs are different enough to where I could see myself recommending them to any number of different people, but they do definitely do lean on the more linear side like you stated. Tim doesn't seem like someone who would like automation like that since he's said in the past that he likes to develop games that let you get straight to the gameplay with all of its mechanics. That's why I was really interested to know if he's ever dipped his toes into those types of games.
Oh my god, the griffin in EC! I lost so many levels in EQ, and I always hated that mechanic, and the hell levels. But I loved exploring that world. Being a bard was the best! You could literally go anywhere. I remember exploring underwater with breathing and invis...of course, I couldn't do anything by myself, but it was so cool to be able to go anywhere. And FromSoft is kinda...well, they enjoy feeding the trolls a little bit. The multiplayer aspect since Demon's Souls has always been somewhat adversarial. That's what the mimic veil is for! You use it when people invade you and prank the hell out of them. It's so good. We normally think of frustration as something we want to avoid for players - but From have made it an art to incorporate frustration into their game design in a way that is satisfying without feeling unfair or broken. As much as I've been griefed during Souls sessions, there's always the option of running the content solo to avoid invasions. I just like having my friends around, even if it results in the collective misery of getting ganked 10 times in a row by a naked dude who is min/maxing. I also remember Morrowind feeling like a single-player EQ, which is why I bounced off of it pretty quickly - because the other people were my favorite part of playing, and their absence meant the world feel empty. I absolutely did find this enjoyable, and it's great to know that your favorite class in EQ was the enchanter - I always loved having them around, and they always appreciated my mana boost song so they didn't have to sit around staring at their spellbooks so much :)
I love Dark Souls, it's probably the best overall experience for me because I didn't quite know what was going on but I felt compelled to learn. The looking-up problem is still a thing, for me in Elden Ring it was largely trying to follow storylines to their completion (which I guess got a bit easier with a later patch where they put NPCs on the map). Despite my love of Dark Souls, though, Elden Ring fits my style better because it was way more flexible in what you could do, if you were stuck on one area you could just go try elsewhere, and you could also burgle items a lot more readily than in DS. I felt a bit exhausted with it midgame, but things picked up later. It wasn't because I had choices but that I'd started to tick the boxes for a lot of places and there was that narrowing starting in, but it was still unclear if I'd missed things or if I had to improve tactics elsewhere. Summoning definitely evened out the playing field in a more reliable way than in DS. I guess for me it wasn't that losing runes was good intrinsically, but that the threat of loss heightened the tension and made victory sweeter when you manage to keep your small fortune to the end. As far as it being a specific Site that allowed leveling, I thought it was a bit more flexible than that because I stumbled upon it early, but what I didn't realize, because I was already exploring everywhere, was that there was a crafting kit I'd missed very early from a vendor. I had the wondrous physick pretty much from the start, but it took me many hours (and a look-up I think) to find the damned crafting kit. The choice to have many important systems be so easily missed was certainly strange to me. I only played EQ a bit, but I wound up touring the world as best as a low level Iksar monk could do, so I appreciated that free roaming aspect as far as it let you do so without getting murdered by undead gorillas and the like. Appreciated your thoughts on these games :)
For everyone who couldn't get into the Dark Souls games but HAS liked Elden Ring, I'd personally recommend checking out Sekiro -- it's in that same category of "still distinctly a FromSoft game but quite decidedly reinvented from Souls".
I love this because this shows how different taste in game design effects how people play and I agree with a lot of your points on Elden ring even though I love souls games. I think it only really rewards those who put a TON of time and mental investment into the game which touches on the obtuseness you mention in the game. If you put a lot of time into the games to learn the systems then it becomes a lot more enjoyable. But is it worth it to make those systems so obtuse is the question I think. I also agree that the game is really only specialized for certain builds like Melee or Dex characters that’s engage in that Dance you spoke of in the game. Love your thoughts as always.
like another commenter said, i too think this ranking system comes from japan. earlier letters in the alphabet are "better"/higher ranked than later letters with the exception of "s" for some reason. some games also introduce higher ranks like "ss," "sss" etc. so the ranking from high to low would look like this: sss>ss>s>a>b>c>d>e>f.... also funny to hear how even YOU got annoyed by the freaking cliffracers in morrowind lol
There are actually multiple sites of grace which will activate the Melina cutscene to enable levelling up. I think the game does a poor job of encouraging you to actually rest at the sites of grace for players new to that game, given there are a lot of NPC actions tied to specific sites of grace. It's a much more natural action for people coming from Dark Souls, and because of that it probably flew under the radar of their testing. Also, these games hail from the design of Armored Core, and much of that stat heavy, complex design carries over to the weapons and armor of Souls.
8:49....this is how the older souls games did it but had a draw back this one didn't because you can accidentally kill trainer Bob, they also have a few here in elden ring , most notably turtle pope, but less than others . Find them works a lot better for the mystery of the world as you usually get them from places relevant to the lore of the world (like my favorite which you can only get from a location relevant to the lore of the spell & secretly a hint at a last minute spoiler ) , as I know I didn't look up a single spell besides the Kamehameha one a lot of people were showing off online (Comet Azur ) and found "okay have to complete x quest "
*I'd love to hear you talk more about Elden Ring and Fromsoft games in general.* I doubt it since you didn't mention it but did you play sekiro? It's somewhat familiar but very different to the souls games and happens to be my favorite game of all time and I think you would either love it or absolutely hate it with no in between
I may or may not have participated in less than honorable invasions back in Dark Souls 1... As questionable as it is, it's absolutely one of my favorite mechanics, something I had always dreamt of playing single-player RPG's etc. To balance it out, though, I got summoned a bunch and had fun using builds that are particularly nasty when teaming up with someone, long spears, staggers etc., and a ton of my invasions were very considerate. It was a cool layer to character expression too, some were looking for a fight, some just looking for humanity along their playthrough, others were just tricksters sitting at level ranges with fair equipment. That's something I personally much preferred over abusing progression, but that's fair-game too, cheap, but fair enough. I usually put further limitations on myself as well, and I liked at least showing people new and novel ways to get ambushed. If I was gonna use the map against them, I'd try to use gimmicks like stealth etc. and give myself access to no more than a VERY low dmg weapon etc., stat points going towards gimmicks and having a bit of hp. I'd love to one day see a game dev take that to 11, as an invader I really enjoyed being weak myself, and merely using utility to compliment the foes and traps. It had more of a Dungeon builder vibe to it, especially in maps like Sen's where you get to cut people off, spawning from above them. Made knowing shortcuts etc. super satisfying, and it always felt great when a player outsmarted me right back. There's people on YT who did gimmick invasions too, like putting on some of the heaviest armor with no endurance, appearing as a slow and telegraphed mini-boss in a controlled environment, it's like you're joining From in their encounter design. Ohh yeah, that net-code, though. That and matchmaking should be a MASSIVE priority with dynamics like this. I should also add I've mostly just had my share of a lot of what Dark Souls etc. offers, it'll forever be a very favorite game, but I probably won't return to it for more than the occasional chill playthrough. Buuut... Fires of Rubicon might be one I'm gonna have to check out, very interested to see how the combat pans out.
One thing you pointed out, about when the game don't provides a good explanation of how some basic things works (like leveling), so you have to search it online. To me this is a big issue for games in general. It really turns me off when I have to look online for basic things, at least what I think the game should tell me. I'm cool with learning enemy patterns or having to count on my memory instead of a map, but having to a research to discover what kind of skills I can learn so I can properly play the way I want to, how do I reach a certain place because there is no hint nearby or "what type of items drops from this?", "where can I get that type of item?". And the more I have to keep consulting, the more I dislike what they're doing with the game in this aspect.
The first time I played Elden Ring, I completely missed the ruin in Limgrave that had the earliest sorcery vendor available (the lady with the stone mask). As you mentioned, however, the level of freedom available in Elden Ring is unprecedented when compared to the previous Souls titles, so even the incredibly formidable (at the time) Margit the Fell can be ignored if you wished to move on to Liurnia of the Lakes. Once the game reaches a point where it doesn't receive any more patches, the mod scene will truly flourish, making it an evergreen title.
My dad was one of the OG beta testers for EverQuest, I’m sure he has the cd they sent in the mail to him somewhere. I used to watch him play and that was my gateway to mmo’s and I didn’t even know it.
Dark Souls 1 is hard to recommend, jut honestly it has my favorite "A-ha" realization moment in any game I've played. And I especially love it because you can beat the entire game and never come close to realizing what is truly happening, but this is done with thematic purpose. Basically, if you do weird sequence breaking, you discover a conversation with a NPC who kind of blows the lid off of your entire motivation, "kindling the fire". He lets you know that you are essentially going to hell and back just to use your own body as a twig to kindle a dying fire which gives power to long corrupted Gods. It's my favorite use of the FromSoftware in-direct story telling because it feeds into the allegorical value of the game, relating it to war and such. Absolute masterpiece
Tim, if you enjoyed ER, then you must play Dark Souls 1, if only to experience the fantastic world map design and how all the seemingly independant levels can be linked together, i’d love to hear your thoughts on it. Only DS1 had this kind of level design, it’s sorely missing from 2 and 3.
I loved Elden Ring, and Everquest is still my favorite MMO. One of my biggest pet peeves about the current state of the MMORPG genre is that everything has become over formulaic in the name of balance. I really miss the more freeform style of the original Everquest. I loved the danger of high level monsters in lower level zones, and I agree that the ambiguity in player direction in Elden Ring is similar to Everquest.
I did like Everquest a lot. Although I was too young to understand most of it lol. I’m a 90’s kid. Although I love Elden Ring and Sekiro. The combat feels challenging and very rewarding rather than boring like I’m just hitting punching bags over and over. Lmao. I feel like I enjoy Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal as well too though because it almost feels like Elden Ring in some ways. Every demon has a weakness and you can learn it as you’re fighting them. It feels very punishing too if you play on a higher difficulty which is amazing!!
Very true. The griffins were a pain in the ass while farming that zone outside of Freeport and where the Tunnel is. ngl, was kinda fun and took you out of the monotony of grinding; you have to look over your shoulder rather than be a robot. (I comment in real time while I watch your vids. This stopped at 3:10 so I can address my thoughts).
Tim, thanks for your observations on how Elden Ring reminded you of EverQuest. Could you do a video on how developers determine the intended difficulty of their game? World of Warcraft is famous for simplifying a lot of what EverQuest was doing and achieved great success by making their MMO much more accessible. The Dark Souls series, on the other hand, increases the difficulty as a feature. Do you believe older games from the 1980's and 1990's were generally more difficult than today's games because of technical limitations, or is it simply a modern-day business decision to lower difficulty in order to reach a larger potential audience?
I've never played EverQuest but i had a similar experience to you as far as liking elden ring a lot and not really loving the souls games. The open world made me feel a lot more free to go do something else if i am feeling stuck. It's also just so pretty.
I love and play all Soulsbourne games and you are correct. Thing is the resources in the game are infinite so eventually you don't go nuts after losing millions of souls/runes/blood echoes.
I think the appeal to Elden Ring for a lot of Souls fans is more so the action game aspects of it than the role playing. The spells being collectibles is mostly there to encourage exploration. I don’t think everyone looked them up online. Finding things naturally is a big appeal to a lot of people. Regarding leveling. I do agree that the Melina spawn at a somewhat random bonfire is pretty obtuse. Unrelated to that point though, what makes these games special is fact that the game is still completable from level 1 (and not too bad either especially if you’re on a second playthrough), is itself commendable.
One of the reasons why I love Elden Ring is because it allows me to create cool and unique characters. The combat is okay but I feel like so many people think it's better than it actually is especially when you're doing melee/caster hybrid builds. There's nothing more infuriating than Elden Ring's archaic "press d-pad to scroll through spells" design. FromSoftware needs to move on from that. Also, make casting quicker. Even with maximum casting speed it's still far too risky to cast a spell.
Hey , Tim. Do you have some interesting stories about insides and outs of how the Bloodlines works or about its development process? I think a lot of people here are really interested in Bloodlines stuff.
Funny, I SUPER agree with how you felt about WoW, with lower level content being more interesting because you aren't doing scripted dance routines. I've literally used the same comparison to friends trying to get me into FFXIV. But, also, I'm surprised you enjoyed Elden Ring so much when the scripted dance routines are what turned you off the Souls games. Because, for someone who was an early adopter back in 09, Elden Ring seems the worst in that regard. Something about all those attacks where the enemy starts their animation, there's a big awkward pause, then follows through with the actual swing (which inevitably catches your roll) leads to feeling forced to play in a specific (and unintuitive) way.
Loved hearing your thoughts! Are you playing Armored Core? Not sure if it’s your kind of thing, but it’s a strong contender for my favorite Fromsoftware game yet.
Same, I tried the first Dark Souls a couple of times, couldn't get into it. Played a bit longer with Dark Souls 3 though, still only with Bloodborne and Elden Ring i could sink in a lot of hours. I enjoyed the PS5 Demon Souls remake too. Might try Everquest, thanks Tim.
Serious question Tim, how could you make real time (non-button smashing) combat without the coreographed attacks? I found your first "dislike" about the coreograph combat, clashes with the fact that the game have very reactive gameplay that leads to very "deserved" deaths, aka the feel of understanding why you died and a sense of "fairness" (that you also enjoyed, as many of us). I may be wrong ofc! Because the alternative for real time, at least in the industry and for what I've seen, are button smashing games where you play some sort of a "godly" entity like Spiderman, Batman or Devil May Cry games. For the record, I LOVE your channel and your games. Oh, also, I completely agree about having high level enemies in low level areas. Those add tons of immersion to the world. The feeling that this world does not care about you. Probably the biggest contrast would be base Skyrim. I can remember when I played it for the first time, and felt devastated when I realized that the entire world of enemies changed with my level. Going into a dragon lair at level 7 and still having a chance? Sudently wolves turned into leopards in the entire world??? So incredibly immersion breaking!
I found that curious as well. They're not so much choreographed, imo, as they rely on time and timing. It can feel like a dance at times because there is a goldilocks flow state the player can enter into as opposed to being required to use attacks, feints and dodges at specific juntures and that's what makes the combat more interesting than most other combat systems. I gather that's why so many developers are copying the style and "Souls-like combat" has become a thing. When it comes to Elden Ring, most complaints about the combat have to do with the player having to wait around while some of the bosses run through ridiculously long movesets before melee players, especially, can get in for a single strike and at least one boss requiring a specific moveset or Art on the part of the player to avoid her most devastating, overpowered and unpredictably timed attack. Magic classes can still just spam attacks from a distance while the boss puts on its show, but that's the problem with those particular fights, as I see it. They're all show (and light show) and little to no dance.
S stands for Super, at least that's what I always thought, apparently it's Shuu in Japense. I'm not very familiar with Japenese grading system, but I find it surprising that many people don't understand this convention.
As a note, S>A is very common in Japanese games and media because that’s how school grades with in Japan. S is the equivalent of an A+. Just a little cultural quirk that has been leaking through even to western games
I think it's interesting that you find the dance in wow raids specifically to be not so good, because that was the aspect of wow's raids that I fell in love with especially later at the mythic level where one bad step means death for the entire party. That was where you really put your knowledge and skill to the test, because while you are doing the dance you are also required to perform your classes role to the absolute maximum peak. I feel like too many options can often lead to a loss of identity in favor of having a universal "X Utility" and allows players to make fundamental mistakes due to lack of foresight or foreknowledge that later down the line after having spent hours building up wrong, barring them from further progression within the game unless they scrap everything and start back from square one. This was a big problem with early Wow's talent tree, the point system ended up causing a lot of issues with player and character viability going into the endgame content and the cookie cutter builds emerged, which then caused the endgame content to be tuned around the cookie cutter builds cementing their place within the game and eventually leading to the removal of the point system and the replacement of the modern talent row system.
I think you would really get a kick out of playing a game like Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne or the more recent numbered entry in 5, based on what you're saying you liked about those early MMO worlds. They are genuinely infamous for the exact reason you mention, you never feel like you're safe and things can go wrong at any second if you slip up or make a mistake, while constantly challenging the player with difficulty walls that provide compensatory rewards worthy of the challenges and force them to constantly be considering their strategies against enemy types and configurations as well as bosses.
Your experience of Elden Ring being more accessible than other Souls games is reminiscent of Jon's over at MATN. (He couldn't get into the earlier Souls games, either, which is strange because he's generally all about a game's mechanics, i.e. "an enjoyable gameplay loop.") From was apparently shooting for that target and just as apparently hit it. Get stuck on a boss? No problem. Go elsewhere for a while, maybe level a little more, etc. And a lot of people have mentioned that it wasn't apparent where and how to access sorceries, suggesting it would have been better had the sorcery "vendor" been in the hub along with the faith spell vendors, but she was behind yet another boss fog wall that probably shouldn't have been a boss fog wall because Pumpkin Head is not a boss. It's just another NPC on which From bestowed an enormous health bar and called a boss. ("Boss fight fatigue" definitely became a thing for many people who would have preferred all the bosses to be unique and, therefore, imminently memorable.) I only wish the game had something to offer in those beautiful "legacy" locations aside from killing everything in your path, but combat is the name of the game in most of From's titles, so I'll just have to lament there being no lively towns or cities to become immersed in as in a traditional RPG.
You don't lose levels in From Soft, you just lose your unspent XP, XP is also your money, spend it or lose. The S-F is a Japan thing, in Japan S is higher then A in grading, fairly common for games to use it as well such as Metal Gear, Sonic, Devil May Cry, and so on. This said on the weapons deal, yeah you likely want to find what move set you like and then look up what will do most damage for your build with it, the scaling in ER is relative not tier based unlike Demon Souls and the like.
I feel like you haven't really played Dark Souls, Tim, because just about every specific bit you complimented Elden Ring for is inherited from Dark Souls. And the choreographed combat that you did not enjoy in Dark Souls is largely the same in Elden Ring. It would be interesting if you gave Dark Souls 1 a proper chance and came back to this video - how your perspective would or would not shift.
oh man i have the best story about the mimic veil. so a friend and i were doing this dungeon in Elden ring. we got invaded. used the mimic veil and hid in corners as candles. the invader ran by us like 10 times, i was sweating bullets and talking to my friend over VC, "Dude dude, hes gonna notice us! Ah! here he comes again! Oh God!" after a while the invader just left it was hillarious.
I see the spell progression and weapons system as, more roguelike in nature, you pick up a greatsword and until you swing it around you won't really know it's strengths.
Hahahah, the more things change the more they stay the same, eh? Honestly, the "XP loss on death" mechanic in FromSoft games is so fundamental that people will indeed riot if you change it. The reason is that we are simply conditioned to it at this point, but unlike what I presume EQ did, which was "death=lost XP" Elden Ring's runes are a universal currency and they are recoverable on death. Because you can recover, it is made as a goal for the player to retrieve them and have an incentive to face the area and enemy composition again, with the caveat of "OK, now I know what killed me". This is why it's considered core to the Elden Ring experience. You fail, but you are given a chance to use what you've learned to recover. Or simply get so used to it, that it doesn't phase you and you always just have the opportunity to move on, and make up that lost currency through exploration. While I agree the lack of quest markers forces you to interact with the world in a more integrative sense, I also agree that would be nice for Quests to include some more mechanically relevant rewards rather than lore specific items and interactions. I love the latter, but with the obtuse and basic design of the "quests" it will be a blessing and a curse. I do think that Elden Ring played with that idea more than before, clearly evident in one of main quest routes giving you the titular Moonlight Greatsword, a weapon that's been in ALL Soulsbourna games. So for veterans, it's like reuniting with an old friend, but only doing so with 3/4ths of the main quest progressed already. But yes, Soulsbourne questing has always been questionable, as it seems hard for it to move beyond from static NPCs and obtuseness to incentivize speculation and wonder. I also thought you would criticize the weapon upgrade system, and how it softlocks trying other weapons and playstyles. Because a weapon in Elden Ring is far from just a stat stick with scaling assigned to weapons. The letters are somewhat based off arcade game rankings, i.e. E is the worst rank, getting to earlier letters means you're improving at the level, with A usually meaning that you're good and competent at it, while S is for *mastery*. You just assign that meaning to how well your weapon's numbers grow with that stat. And even the fattest Elden Ring stat sticks are not made viable in PvP unless they are given a *moveset* to compliment them accordingly. Regardless of all this, it's great that Elden Ring did indeed manage to succeed hooking you into the formula. I'm sure you'll hear plenty of people now telling you: "Yes, you get it now, and can probably tackle Dark Souls 3 with far less difficulty."
I think these 'rambles' are a perfect way to talk about games without "reviewing" them. Talk about the mechanics, about interesting things they did. As youve said before, your perspective as a game designer is different from most players, so naturally videos centered around specific games should be different, too.
Also if you're looking for another fantasy ARPG, I'd recommend Dragon's Dogma. It does a lot of really interesting and unique things I wish more action games would take note of. It's got some early-game pacing issues, but I think any self-respecting RPG fan should give it a shot.
Elden Ring's writer/director Hidetaka Miyazaki was asked in a Gamespot interview: "If you could take over any game franchise and had an unlimited budget, which would you pick?" His answer: "Ultima Online or EverQuest."
The E through A with S being the best comes from the Japanese school grading system as I understand it. C is 60~69%, B is 70~79%, A is 80~89%, and S (rarely ever given) is 90~100%. S stands for "Shu", meaning 'exemplary'.
It even originates from further back than school grading, but it's sufficient to say that it's just a well established grading system in Japan and as such not surprisingly also used in all manner of Japanese video games.
I had always assumed it was just arbitrary or stood for like "Super" so that's interesting to hear
Yeah I was gonna say that's *_really_* common in Japanese games, RPGs in particular. Or DMC. _SSS_ SMOKIN SEXY STYLE
Kinda surprised he didn't know. Sometimes I forget Tim is made of 99% Western games (not a knock on him but he is missing out on some pretty good ones).
I think it's a relatively recent thing that westerners have been adopting the S tier. Like within the last ten years
I would say S is that 99-100% traditionally, but co-opted by western culture might include that 90-98%. A is still great, just not otherworldly great. In chess, A and S is the difference between a Grandmaster and a Super Grandmaster.
Hearing you say you don't understand the S-class being higher than A was so funny to me because as a millennial who played a lot of Japanese-made video games as a kid, they ALWAYS had S-rank as the highest! So to me it is completely ingrained as a 'normal'! Loved hearing you talk about your experience with Elden Ring and the way it is similar to a game I never got to play :)
Right? It's something I wouldn't even think about these days. The last time I was confused by this system was when I played the old 3d Sonic games as a kid, so it's just second nature now!
It's been ubiquitous with games for so long at this point that even non-Japanese games and UA-camr tier lists use it without explanation. Hearing someone not understand it is like witnessing someone from the past suddenly arriving in the present for the first time.
I always thought S stood for Super, but since it's Japanese in origin, I don't know whether that's the case.
@@donaldcrankshaw1627
it stands for the Japanese Kanji/Chinese character shu (meaning excellent), and it’s basically the A+ grade in Japanese schools
@@harrylane4damn so the other guy wasn’t to far off, thanks for the info 👍
The letter grade system you noted in Elden Ring is basically universal among Japanese games. Not for item valuation, but for any ranking really, like sports games, rhythm games, character action games like DMC use it for feedback on combo performance. It isn't inherently easy to understand but it's common enough as a convention that no one I know complained about it.
Not only that, but I've seen western YTers when talking about western games also use it without explanation, basically expecting you to know it already.
I am surprised Tim never encountered it before because it feels to me it has been convention for good part of the decade.
Further explanation for this is that it is something rooted in Japanese culture that "S" is a high grade for something. People often argue it is due to the school system using S as a grade, but I've also heard interpretations that it is related to how many superlative words in Japanese starts with an "S."
It's interesting, and S being synonymous with highest quality or rarity in Japanese games is just so engrained its easy to forget it isn't a thing in other rating systems.
Ah, that explains where the S-tier rankings come from.
Yes I've seen AI voice videos about their rankings that use this system. Funnily enough if you look even 4 years back westerners would just use A+ to F- like grades but added the S tier. I had it explained as this was the "super" or "the shit" tier.
@@nebeskisrb7765 If you're a big PC gamer type guy then you're not running into a lot of Japanese games, those (the ones we got in the west) where mostly on consoles historically. PC ports did exist, but they where both relatively rare and often shoddily put together. Competent PC ports of Japanese games are a relatively recent thing, and using old ports (like Silent Hill 2 on PC) has only become a more common practice because of a combination of extensive fan-patching and them falling into abandonware status has made it, in some cases, superior to emulation.
But basically if you weren't a PlayStation or Nintendo kid who got into JRPGs, Character Action Games, Resident Evil or Metal Gear Solid a lot of the conventions one takes for granted even in a game like Dark Souls might seem pretty weird.
I haven't played Morrowind in over a decade, but can still hear the screeching of the damn birds so vividly.
Heh, cliffracers and their low-poly janky flapping animation, and that low bitrate screech loop. I kinda loved how they could just jump scare you, too.
They were so relentless...
You don't need to rest at any one specific site of Grace to unlock leveling. You simply need to rest at any 3 sites of Grace that exist in the open world (aka not a part of a dungeon). Melina will appear to you at the 3rd site of Grace.
Yeah. Its a good idea as you’ll eventually run into it
My dad was an Everquest player back in the day. He picked up Elden Ring and thought the same thing and loves it because of that, so it was a pleasant shock to see this video pop in my feed!
My dad is a massive EQ fan and refuses to play Elden Ring just because I like it and think it’s so good. He would probably love it if he played it he’s just so stubborn lol
I agree that magic progression and getting better spells is pretty obtuse in Elden Ring but I like the way that you as a player can consider “who practices magic in this world?” and follow those threads to find a lot of spells and magic related things in a natural way (the obtuseness is alleviated a bit by the fact that many early game spells remain the most mana efficient and gain damage as you level up your intelligence throughout the game) Most games don’t train us to think so literally about the world but if you pay attention you will be led to more magic if you seek it out! A few examples are Sellen the first NPC and her side quest which lead you to the bodies of Azur and Lusat who are in possession of great spells/staves/armor for magic users, the mage towers in the open world that have magic related items inside, Raya Lucaria which is a magic academy and holds a ton of upgrades and spells for magic users, the Carian manor which is associated with Ranni and is owned by the family that includes the most powerful magic users in the world of Elden Ring (Rennala, Radahn, Ranni) and Sellia in Caelid which is where Radahn was taught magic and it holds some powerful things in and around it as well (night sorceries that AI do not attempt to dodge, metorite staff + rock sling in the surrounding area). I love this approach because it rewards players who explore areas that are relevant to their in game character’s class and interests, rewards understanding of the lore, and requires the player to think as if they are in the world of the game which I find to be really immersive.
Came here to basically say this, well put! I also think Souls games prioritize the feeling of mystery and discovery over ease of play. That does create the trade-off that you won't know what kind of spells you can get and where (and similarly, what weapons/Ashes of War you can get and where), but the process of discovery is exciting. Additionally, the player starts off as a lowly Tarnished who has to work with whatever they can get, which makes the first new discoveries that fit your build feel very gratifying.
Interestingly, all of your points about Elden Ring apply to Dark Souls too, apart from Elden Ring's world being more open from the start, whereas Dark Souls, while not being fully linear, has fewer paths between areas.
Perhaps the tighter, inter-connected nature of Dark Souls' maps (Lordran in particular) lent itself more to the gameplay design that was discussed in the video. 🤷
Yeah, I'm just as surprised as Tim's friend. Dark Souls is my 2nd favorite game, and literally _everything_ Tim said here about Elden Ring matches up to Dark Souls. (Besides that Elden Ring has a more 'open'-looking world, but it just looks like a 'scaled up version' of the map design of other Soulsborne games)
But subtle differences can make or break a game, so I get it.
@@BreakdancePeach I was thinking the same thing. I think he just really doesn't like anything that is remotely linear.
Yeah I’ve been turning into a vase leading players into ambushes since dark souls 2
The second I saw this video I had to click. Everquest was my childhood. Probably too much of it. I can see the comparisons. Everquest is a big driver in the games I want to make. Nights in EverQuest still haunt me. Pitch dark, can't see your own hand in front of your face. Horrifying monsters that come out at night in certain areas. Random nasty creatures roaming "safe" areas.
Venomous snakes biting you and learning very quickly they're not worth the exp unless your healer has cure poison.
God what a wonderful game. I haven't played Elden Ring yet. I've been punishing myself by not playing it because I want to get what I'm working on done first. But soon, soon I will. The enchanter disguise self skill was great if you threw a coin on the ground and had someone sow you. You could zip around town as a piece of copper cause of that bug. Good memories. I hope I can bring the sense of exploration and adventure old games like Morrowind, EverQuest, etc gave me to my stuff. I want people to explore and discover unique things to tell their own stories. But I do agree some quality of life to clarity is important. I could go on for HOURS about EQ.
What server were you on Tim? Mithaniel Marr here. :)
I used a few different servers, but I spent most of my time on Eci.
@@CainOnGames A bit of the same here when I started out. I cannot remember what server I originally started on as a kid. I just remember being in freeport with another player and looking at the canal next to the paladin guild that had a secret tunnel in it. The paladin I was with was afraid to go in the water cause he had chain mail on and thought he'd drown. I had just bought a cloth rope (Which was actually a belt) because I found a secret tunnel inside the canal and wanted to see if I could use the rope to climb up and see what was up there.
To this day I wonder what was up at that hole where the green glow was coming from.... Probably just an empty square area! But good stories and mysteries make a great game. Thanks for jarring some great memories.
EverQuest before things were mapped and Wikied. Before the bazaar and the rush to the end game that is now what MMOs do... It was magic. You felt the world was huge. Each fight worth fighting could go bad, each session could end in death that would take hours or a lot of platinum to recover from.
And without maps, Wikis and recommended leveling paths, each advancement in level or gear felt amazing.
You can capture some of that feeling when a new tlp opens, or when p99 happens to do a refresh, but not really. The info is there.
I remember when they first released the Paladin epic weapon quest, thinking it was going to be this awesome world-spanning quest that would involve complex riddles and mechanics...and it ended up just being a grindfest. I was so disappointed. It felt like such a letdown knowing that it was just a matter of having a guild big enough to plow through the grind, and that I was never going to be able to do that.
@@PullingTheBasement to me, the end game was the end of the game. Max level was time for a new character in a new place I'd never explored. Mostly because the fun was in being rag tag and lost. That's a thing I never really experienced in any mmos other than asherons call, EverQuest, and anarchy online.
I’ve been trying to track down where I read it sometime ago, it was an interview in regards to King’s Field/ Demon’s Souls/ Dark Souls..
I distinctly remember Miyazaki stating that besides being heavily inspired by the ttrpg “Fighting Fantasy” he loved and was inspired by EverQuest :)
I may be misremembering though and that I just had similar feelings to you, which I’m happy to hear you express the comparison because friends told me I was wrong :p
Playing a rogue in Everquest really trained you to stay alive at all costs, which is a trait that translates well into Elden Ring. When I moved from Everquest to WoW, my rogue didn't die until level 23, because Everquest had trained me to burn up all of my tricks to escape.
I played a Paladin up to 54 who, of course, died a lot with no tricks. Next character was a monk up to 70 who really only died raid pulling. Fun memories.
My favourite part about playing as a spellcaster in elden ring was finding all of the spells. I got about 90% of them without the internet
And didn't really miss any of the good ones. Most spells are either found in areas you might expect to see magic, are tied to questlines from magic users, or are sold by magic users. I would really hate it if you knew where to get all of the spells or any item for that matter. Item collection is the number one reason for exploration in every souls game and is also how you get a great deal of the lore through scenic storytelling and item description. As a spellcaster my main drive is exploring to find all the best magic gear and spells in the game rather than just making enough money or experience to buy it.
Did you played or heard about Gothic 1 and 2? It's a similar type of the game. Hard combat but also good story, roleplay and especially exploring element. You would probably like it. And last year Chronicles of Myrtana: Archolos were released and that is game of the year 2022 for me.
Dark Souls saga games were a life changing experience to me. Personally, from all the games I've played, they were the ones that absorbed me the most, like a good book, and I don't mean the lore, I didn't read an item description once (for the lore), I mean in making me feel that I am wanted/required to finish the game. Dunno if that makes sense.
Hello Tim! Big fan of your games!
Can you please make a video on what type of game design you want to see in the future? Like what mechanics would you like to see more in games or what problems you want to see solved in video games.
In my personal opinion all the quests:
1. Go find / bring
2. Go kill
Could be surprise discoveries in the open world, and will be a lot more tedious if someone set a goal for you do them
Basically i am advocating for the begging and end of the quests be happening in one small area that you can stumble upon to get the dopamine hit
And chain quests with stages should be absolute necessity with insanely good story because they are energy depriving
Baldur’s gate 3 did an amazing job with this
I hear the criticism often of people will just go online to look things up. It’s valid, but to not have the game hold your hand so much creates awesome immersion for those that want to play “blind”. I usually do…then go through a second time and find all the things i missed. Creates amazing replay value.
I found your point on quest design and locations in Elden Ring super interesting, as I see some similarity in Fallout 1's quest design - i.e. the lack of hand holding and the need to keep track of locations and where NPCs hint without pointing directly where. Although I can completely understand it might be a con as modern games typically have more direct quest tracking. Ultimately, it is up to the player and it isn't for everyone.
But as someone who grew up with Skyrim and other RPGs during that era, when I played Fallout 1 later it was super refreshing trying to explore and problem solve to find clues for questlines. And this exact feeling I had when I was playing Elden Ring - I don't think it was as difficult as people made it out to be but I think it's because from the beginning it was doing something similar to Fallout 1
having these videos is such a treat awesome to have these perspectives
I still miss those days when people that would train the griffon to the east commonlands tunnel where everyone bartered. 😂 To this day I’ve still never had a better time playing a game than those EverQuest days.
Watching/listening to these videos every morning is becoming a staple of my day - this one in particular had me grinning ear to ear just hearing you analyze and compare. Thanks so much, Tim!
I super appreciate your perspective on this, knowing who you are and your achievements. I might disagree with some of it, but, regardless, it is FASCINATING hearing from a hardcore gamer (and a DEV, especially) that I respect, and all of your opinions of the weird stuff encountered in different games. I feel like if we went camping or something, we could talk and argue and drink beer all night about why such-and-such mechanic wasn't good or what design decisions in what game should have been a different way or why not.
For example, I think a lot of inconsistency and chaos in the FromSoft games has been incredibly invigorating in the same way an earworm has been, and creates a meta group-memory for gamers to discuss and laugh or cry about together. Like... a lot of that stuff is so weird that it's beautiful, and most developers are so afraid to stray from a beaten path and just polish away any and all of that weird character that makes those games so unique. A lot of games try to do what From does, but very few actually achieve the same level of mood and experience; there's definitely an x-factor there and I dont think making it "easier" or "more intuitive" would necessarily be better. From games have ended up being this weird acquired taste, similar to fermented foods. Edit: also, JoJo. Jojo's bizzare adventure is the same acquired-taste energy.
6:49 Thank you, Tim, for expressing with words what I could not, up until this point! I never could really figure out why, in Elden Ring and previous Souls titles, (excluding Bloodborne) why I would want to use one weapon over another, if the one I was currently using was already effective, and similar to a new one I'd find, post-upgrade. Word salad aside, hopefully you didn't spend any time reading this one, thanks for that.
7:34 another excellent point! I often found myself not even wanting to engage with certain NPCs/questlines in Elden Ring/Dark souls 3 because of how vague they progressed. I didn't want to have to look a solution up online, or else risk completely failing said NPC/questline, with no explanation as to how I failed it or how I should have/could have gone about progressing.
Reflecting on my time playing EverQuest, I have to agree, there's a lot of similarities.
What jumps out to me as similar is how both games have highly dangerous, atmospheric (for its time), immersive worlds. The games can both very easily give you an "in over your head" feeling, but simultaneously make you stand back and marvel at the scope of it all.
Great insight, it makes me nostalgic!
These days people call experiences like that elitist
Would be nice to hear you talk about more modern games, you don't have to "review" them, just say what you thought interesting about them.
Definitely!!!
I would be super curious to hear thoughts on those as well!!
I think a lot of those "questionable" design decision you brought up, which are often praised / defended by the fromsoft fans, were significant contributing factors to why dark souls was so very popular. Dark souls shook up the industry by leaning into more esoteric design and game mechanics that were more reminiscent of hardcore older games in a time when most AAA games were becoming more and more streamlined, more and more casual. It was a counter-culture that seemed to tell gamers who wanted a greater challenge that there were still games out there for them. You've pointed out how a lot of these things weren't new, but actually pulled from older games - but I would say they still felt fresh against the competition in the early 2010s.
Now though, the souls games are a known quantity (after demon souls, 3 dark souls, sekiro, elden ring, bloodborne) and so it's less about being fresh and interesting, and more about leaning into the formula that skyrocketed them to being a household name. They shake things up a little with each release, but I think if they outright dropped some of those mechanics you question, they might also start dropping some of their fanbase in the process. Either way though, nice video.
I'm in a similar boat. I could never get into the Dark Souls games when i tried them but Elden Ring was a great experience for me even if I never got around to finishing it. Still had a good time
Interesting thing about Morrowind is that it almost looks like an accidentally good game in retrospect. I love Morrowind to this day, precisely because it is so unique compared to what came after. I assume the change to a more handholding experience was a calculated move to reach more audiences, but I wonder what could have been, had these games been more like Elden Ring, which still reached a lot of players.
I miss old game boxes. Those old EQ covers were great. And the goodies they gave away with them were a reason to get them alone. To this day I’ve never received a game world map made from actual cloth except from non collectors edition EQ expansions.
FromSoft looked at the griefing in games like EQ and made improvements by... adding a recurring NPC who tricks you into really bad areas and knocks you down holes. This way, even the offline players get to share in the fun!
If you could elaborate, what would be an example of a weapon comparison system you would prefer instead of what Eldin Ring and EverQuest presented? And for that matter, what other gameplay systems or mechanics do you prefer in games?
This was an interesting video because I think it's the first time I heard someone talk about Elden Ring who wasn't a big fan of Fromsoft's other games but still liked it. I've heard other intelligent people talk about the series before but usually I've found they love all of the Souls games.
Damn I can't believe there's a chance I've played EQ with you back in the day and did not realize it.
If you ran into the high elf wizard Mungbean, the dark elf necromancer Evilishessness, or the half elf bard Poshh (part of the Spicy Girls guild)...then you met me in EQ!
Oh man. EQ in the base game-Kunark-Velious era. Good times. @@CainOnGames
I stumbled on your videos while literally sitting here playing classic Everquest.
I love to hear those "ramblings" and insights about other games - any thoughts on modding? Your favorite mods for games? You think modding tools for Outer Wolrds could have been expanded? Will it be for the sequel?
I am a little confused that you didn't like the previous Souls games but you did like Elden Ring because all the things you listed from ER that reminded you of EverQuest... Were in all those previous souls games. The griefing, the high level enemies you take on, even mimic spell, those were all in previous Dark Souls games.
So my question is What made you like Elden Ring better than Dark Souls? Was it the open world or something else?
This isn't meant to be some "gotcha" by the way, I'm just genuinely curious about what appealed to you in Elden Ring that was missing from Dark Souls.
Thanks for another great video,Tim! 👍
Sir, you have become a daily habit to watch your videos. Really interesting takes and insights.
This comment section is about to pop off with younger people who have played a lot of SoulBornes and zero EverQuest
Can confirm. 37 years old, never played EverQuest.
Everwho?
Now I wish I had know what this "EverQuest" was when I was a kid, maybe I had liked it as much as I love Souls-games
Dark Age of Camelot is better
I'm 34, played both , and I can see what he means but am curious how that didn't apply to the previous souls borne titles as there's more than a few "this enemy is much too tough for a player/can one shot a player who's starting out but you can come back later "
Hi Tim! interesting perspective and parallels you've drawn from comparing these 2, also found the mimic veil as a really cool mechanic,
regarding what you've said about inconsistent bosses, some bosses being harder than others based on the class you're playing while fighting,
I believe this is a good choice making replays feel different and challenging even underestimating a boss that was initially trivial, I never played a souls game as a magic user but tried it first time in elden ring and got a huge surprise when the tree sentinel just returned my spells right at me,
also agree when you compared horse-back fights vs on-foot, some fights I couldn't win without riding while others I chose deliberately on foot for a bit of an challenge unfortunately many of the fights cannot be fought on horse-back
also I think they made some things in elden ring difficult to find/figure out while having the messaging system in mind, one player discovers a hidden path puts a message that others will learn about and proceed to discover that path,
I am also curious what is your perspective on the quests of elden ring, I found them a bit difficult to follow since I played rarely and ended up forgetting where I was in each one, but I get the feeling they are built somewhat like puzzles that require a bit of effort to solve yet are rewarding to do so,
comparing this to some rpgs that offer ample choices in quests leading to many custom outcomes I believe and mixed approach would be best
1999 EverQuest player here (bar none, the most amazing video game experience of my life). When I played it, I found Dark Souls to be the closest experience I've had to EverQuest. Haven't played Elden Ring yet, but looking forward to it.
please do more videos like this! talking about a recent game you really liked, or if a new game reminds you of another game. you're really good at articulating
You might have stated your opinion of this in another video, but I'd love to hear your thoughts regarding JRPGs since they take a very different design philosophy when compared to Western RPGs. I've been replaying Final Fantasy VII using some mods to upgrade the experience, and I'm almost done Persona 5 Royal, and while I love both of these games, they take a much more linear approach to game design when compared to Fallout or Baldurs Gate.
I personally like playing both of these games since I like the variety, but it would be interesting to have your input on this.
They take the more linear approach because the world building is significantly less of a focus, to the point of being essentially a non-aspect, in favor of character writing within a real world setting that the player is already familiar with if not living within themselves.
It's just different methods of delivering plot and narrative, SMT for example as a comparison to it's spin-off franchise Persona has very little character dialogue and is almost entirely reliant on its world building to tell its story, where you as a player are often just dropped right into a mid-apocalyptic hellscape and expected to either already know what you need to do, or learn as you play and take the uphill battle against God.
@@Vanity0666 Funnily enough, I find SMT to be quite the outlier for JRPGs. At least, with SMT 3 and 5, since you typically do a lot of world building through exploration and side quests. The combat in every SMT I've played has also pulled me in through its combat as well. I kind of wish more games tried that formula. Honestly, I'd say a lot of my favorite JRPGs are different enough to where I could see myself recommending them to any number of different people, but they do definitely do lean on the more linear side like you stated.
Tim doesn't seem like someone who would like automation like that since he's said in the past that he likes to develop games that let you get straight to the gameplay with all of its mechanics. That's why I was really interested to know if he's ever dipped his toes into those types of games.
Oh my god, the griffin in EC! I lost so many levels in EQ, and I always hated that mechanic, and the hell levels. But I loved exploring that world. Being a bard was the best! You could literally go anywhere. I remember exploring underwater with breathing and invis...of course, I couldn't do anything by myself, but it was so cool to be able to go anywhere. And FromSoft is kinda...well, they enjoy feeding the trolls a little bit. The multiplayer aspect since Demon's Souls has always been somewhat adversarial. That's what the mimic veil is for! You use it when people invade you and prank the hell out of them. It's so good. We normally think of frustration as something we want to avoid for players - but From have made it an art to incorporate frustration into their game design in a way that is satisfying without feeling unfair or broken. As much as I've been griefed during Souls sessions, there's always the option of running the content solo to avoid invasions. I just like having my friends around, even if it results in the collective misery of getting ganked 10 times in a row by a naked dude who is min/maxing.
I also remember Morrowind feeling like a single-player EQ, which is why I bounced off of it pretty quickly - because the other people were my favorite part of playing, and their absence meant the world feel empty.
I absolutely did find this enjoyable, and it's great to know that your favorite class in EQ was the enchanter - I always loved having them around, and they always appreciated my mana boost song so they didn't have to sit around staring at their spellbooks so much :)
I love Dark Souls, it's probably the best overall experience for me because I didn't quite know what was going on but I felt compelled to learn. The looking-up problem is still a thing, for me in Elden Ring it was largely trying to follow storylines to their completion (which I guess got a bit easier with a later patch where they put NPCs on the map). Despite my love of Dark Souls, though, Elden Ring fits my style better because it was way more flexible in what you could do, if you were stuck on one area you could just go try elsewhere, and you could also burgle items a lot more readily than in DS. I felt a bit exhausted with it midgame, but things picked up later. It wasn't because I had choices but that I'd started to tick the boxes for a lot of places and there was that narrowing starting in, but it was still unclear if I'd missed things or if I had to improve tactics elsewhere.
Summoning definitely evened out the playing field in a more reliable way than in DS. I guess for me it wasn't that losing runes was good intrinsically, but that the threat of loss heightened the tension and made victory sweeter when you manage to keep your small fortune to the end. As far as it being a specific Site that allowed leveling, I thought it was a bit more flexible than that because I stumbled upon it early, but what I didn't realize, because I was already exploring everywhere, was that there was a crafting kit I'd missed very early from a vendor. I had the wondrous physick pretty much from the start, but it took me many hours (and a look-up I think) to find the damned crafting kit. The choice to have many important systems be so easily missed was certainly strange to me.
I only played EQ a bit, but I wound up touring the world as best as a low level Iksar monk could do, so I appreciated that free roaming aspect as far as it let you do so without getting murdered by undead gorillas and the like.
Appreciated your thoughts on these games :)
For everyone who couldn't get into the Dark Souls games but HAS liked Elden Ring, I'd personally recommend checking out Sekiro -- it's in that same category of "still distinctly a FromSoft game but quite decidedly reinvented from Souls".
Keep rambling please! I love your insights!
great to hear your thoughts tim!
I love this because this shows how different taste in game design effects how people play and I agree with a lot of your points on Elden ring even though I love souls games. I think it only really rewards those who put a TON of time and mental investment into the game which touches on the obtuseness you mention in the game. If you put a lot of time into the games to learn the systems then it becomes a lot more enjoyable. But is it worth it to make those systems so obtuse is the question I think. I also agree that the game is really only specialized for certain builds like Melee or Dex characters that’s engage in that Dance you spoke of in the game. Love your thoughts as always.
like another commenter said, i too think this ranking system comes from japan. earlier letters in the alphabet are "better"/higher ranked than later letters with the exception of "s" for some reason. some games also introduce higher ranks like "ss," "sss" etc.
so the ranking from high to low would look like this: sss>ss>s>a>b>c>d>e>f....
also funny to hear how even YOU got annoyed by the freaking cliffracers in morrowind lol
There are actually multiple sites of grace which will activate the Melina cutscene to enable levelling up. I think the game does a poor job of encouraging you to actually rest at the sites of grace for players new to that game, given there are a lot of NPC actions tied to specific sites of grace. It's a much more natural action for people coming from Dark Souls, and because of that it probably flew under the radar of their testing. Also, these games hail from the design of Armored Core, and much of that stat heavy, complex design carries over to the weapons and armor of Souls.
8:49....this is how the older souls games did it but had a draw back this one didn't because you can accidentally kill trainer Bob, they also have a few here in elden ring , most notably turtle pope, but less than others . Find them works a lot better for the mystery of the world as you usually get them from places relevant to the lore of the world (like my favorite which you can only get from a location relevant to the lore of the spell & secretly a hint at a last minute spoiler ) , as I know I didn't look up a single spell besides the Kamehameha one a lot of people were showing off online (Comet Azur ) and found "okay have to complete x quest "
*I'd love to hear you talk more about Elden Ring and Fromsoft games in general.* I doubt it since you didn't mention it but did you play sekiro? It's somewhat familiar but very different to the souls games and happens to be my favorite game of all time and I think you would either love it or absolutely hate it with no in between
I may or may not have participated in less than honorable invasions back in Dark Souls 1... As questionable as it is, it's absolutely one of my favorite mechanics, something I had always dreamt of playing single-player RPG's etc. To balance it out, though, I got summoned a bunch and had fun using builds that are particularly nasty when teaming up with someone, long spears, staggers etc., and a ton of my invasions were very considerate.
It was a cool layer to character expression too, some were looking for a fight, some just looking for humanity along their playthrough, others were just tricksters sitting at level ranges with fair equipment. That's something I personally much preferred over abusing progression, but that's fair-game too, cheap, but fair enough. I usually put further limitations on myself as well, and I liked at least showing people new and novel ways to get ambushed. If I was gonna use the map against them, I'd try to use gimmicks like stealth etc. and give myself access to no more than a VERY low dmg weapon etc., stat points going towards gimmicks and having a bit of hp.
I'd love to one day see a game dev take that to 11, as an invader I really enjoyed being weak myself, and merely using utility to compliment the foes and traps. It had more of a Dungeon builder vibe to it, especially in maps like Sen's where you get to cut people off, spawning from above them. Made knowing shortcuts etc. super satisfying, and it always felt great when a player outsmarted me right back. There's people on YT who did gimmick invasions too, like putting on some of the heaviest armor with no endurance, appearing as a slow and telegraphed mini-boss in a controlled environment, it's like you're joining From in their encounter design.
Ohh yeah, that net-code, though. That and matchmaking should be a MASSIVE priority with dynamics like this.
I should also add I've mostly just had my share of a lot of what Dark Souls etc. offers, it'll forever be a very favorite game, but I probably won't return to it for more than the occasional chill playthrough. Buuut... Fires of Rubicon might be one I'm gonna have to check out, very interested to see how the combat pans out.
One thing you pointed out, about when the game don't provides a good explanation of how some basic things works (like leveling), so you have to search it online. To me this is a big issue for games in general. It really turns me off when I have to look online for basic things, at least what I think the game should tell me. I'm cool with learning enemy patterns or having to count on my memory instead of a map, but having to a research to discover what kind of skills I can learn so I can properly play the way I want to, how do I reach a certain place because there is no hint nearby or "what type of items drops from this?", "where can I get that type of item?". And the more I have to keep consulting, the more I dislike what they're doing with the game in this aspect.
The first time I played Elden Ring, I completely missed the ruin in Limgrave that had the earliest sorcery vendor available (the lady with the stone mask).
As you mentioned, however, the level of freedom available in Elden Ring is unprecedented when compared to the previous Souls titles, so even the incredibly formidable (at the time) Margit the Fell can be ignored if you wished to move on to Liurnia of the Lakes.
Once the game reaches a point where it doesn't receive any more patches, the mod scene will truly flourish, making it an evergreen title.
My dad was one of the OG beta testers for EverQuest, I’m sure he has the cd they sent in the mail to him somewhere. I used to watch him play and that was my gateway to mmo’s and I didn’t even know it.
Dark Souls 1 is hard to recommend, jut honestly it has my favorite "A-ha" realization moment in any game I've played. And I especially love it because you can beat the entire game and never come close to realizing what is truly happening, but this is done with thematic purpose.
Basically, if you do weird sequence breaking, you discover a conversation with a NPC who kind of blows the lid off of your entire motivation, "kindling the fire". He lets you know that you are essentially going to hell and back just to use your own body as a twig to kindle a dying fire which gives power to long corrupted Gods.
It's my favorite use of the FromSoftware in-direct story telling because it feeds into the allegorical value of the game, relating it to war and such. Absolute masterpiece
I feel S rank being better than A is fairly common in games, maybe that's just the types of games I play though
Tim, if you enjoyed ER, then you must play Dark Souls 1, if only to experience the fantastic world map design and how all the seemingly independant levels can be linked together, i’d love to hear your thoughts on it. Only DS1 had this kind of level design, it’s sorely missing from 2 and 3.
I understand not being into the choreography of the Souls games. That is why many people love them though. FromSoftware puts the ACTION in ACTION RPG.
I loved Elden Ring, and Everquest is still my favorite MMO. One of my biggest pet peeves about the current state of the MMORPG genre is that everything has become over formulaic in the name of balance. I really miss the more freeform style of the original Everquest. I loved the danger of high level monsters in lower level zones, and I agree that the ambiguity in player direction in Elden Ring is similar to Everquest.
I did like Everquest a lot. Although I was too young to understand most of it lol. I’m a 90’s kid. Although I love Elden Ring and Sekiro. The combat feels challenging and very rewarding rather than boring like I’m just hitting punching bags over and over. Lmao.
I feel like I enjoy Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal as well too though because it almost feels like Elden Ring in some ways. Every demon has a weakness and you can learn it as you’re fighting them. It feels very punishing too if you play on a higher difficulty which is amazing!!
Very true. The griffins were a pain in the ass while farming that zone outside of Freeport and where the Tunnel is.
ngl, was kinda fun and took you out of the monotony of grinding; you have to look over your shoulder rather than be a robot.
(I comment in real time while I watch your vids. This stopped at 3:10 so I can address my thoughts).
Tim, thanks for your observations on how Elden Ring reminded you of EverQuest. Could you do a video on how developers determine the intended difficulty of their game? World of Warcraft is famous for simplifying a lot of what EverQuest was doing and achieved great success by making their MMO much more accessible. The Dark Souls series, on the other hand, increases the difficulty as a feature. Do you believe older games from the 1980's and 1990's were generally more difficult than today's games because of technical limitations, or is it simply a modern-day business decision to lower difficulty in order to reach a larger potential audience?
I've never played EverQuest but i had a similar experience to you as far as liking elden ring a lot and not really loving the souls games. The open world made me feel a lot more free to go do something else if i am feeling stuck. It's also just so pretty.
Everything Tim’s like “couldn’t they have done that?” I’m like I love that about the games ahaha, like not telling you where magic is for example.
Interesting video, would love to hear your thoughts on more games.
I love to hear you ramble
I love and play all Soulsbourne games and you are correct. Thing is the resources in the game are infinite so eventually you don't go nuts after losing millions of souls/runes/blood echoes.
Now we just need an excuse for Tim to make a not-review video on Baldur's Gate 3
I think the appeal to Elden Ring for a lot of Souls fans is more so the action game aspects of it than the role playing. The spells being collectibles is mostly there to encourage exploration. I don’t think everyone looked them up online. Finding things naturally is a big appeal to a lot of people.
Regarding leveling. I do agree that the Melina spawn at a somewhat random bonfire is pretty obtuse. Unrelated to that point though, what makes these games special is fact that the game is still completable from level 1 (and not too bad either especially if you’re on a second playthrough), is itself commendable.
One of the reasons why I love Elden Ring is because it allows me to create cool and unique characters.
The combat is okay but I feel like so many people think it's better than it actually is especially when you're doing melee/caster hybrid builds.
There's nothing more infuriating than Elden Ring's archaic "press d-pad to scroll through spells" design. FromSoftware needs to move on from that. Also, make casting quicker. Even with maximum casting speed it's still far too risky to cast a spell.
Hey , Tim. Do you have some interesting stories about insides and outs of how the Bloodlines works or about its development process? I think a lot of people here are really interested in Bloodlines stuff.
Funny, I SUPER agree with how you felt about WoW, with lower level content being more interesting because you aren't doing scripted dance routines. I've literally used the same comparison to friends trying to get me into FFXIV.
But, also, I'm surprised you enjoyed Elden Ring so much when the scripted dance routines are what turned you off the Souls games. Because, for someone who was an early adopter back in 09, Elden Ring seems the worst in that regard. Something about all those attacks where the enemy starts their animation, there's a big awkward pause, then follows through with the actual swing (which inevitably catches your roll) leads to feeling forced to play in a specific (and unintuitive) way.
The real test of one's determination in EQ was travelling back to your corpse over the course of two hours, all while very naked and afraid!
I had a similar conversation with friends recently who I played project 1999 with.
Comparing the Crows of Caelid to Cliff Racers made me laugh my ass off, thanks for another video Tim
I can relate to the not levelling thing. I ran all through the woods dying to bears looking before I finally gave in and just googled it.
Great video as always Tim!
Many of the things you describe are also present in tabletop D&D. At least older editions.
Loved hearing your thoughts! Are you playing Armored Core? Not sure if it’s your kind of thing, but it’s a strong contender for my favorite Fromsoftware game yet.
Same, I tried the first Dark Souls a couple of times, couldn't get into it. Played a bit longer with Dark Souls 3 though, still only with Bloodborne and Elden Ring i could sink in a lot of hours. I enjoyed the PS5 Demon Souls remake too. Might try Everquest, thanks Tim.
Serious question Tim, how could you make real time (non-button smashing) combat without the coreographed attacks? I found your first "dislike" about the coreograph combat, clashes with the fact that the game have very reactive gameplay that leads to very "deserved" deaths, aka the feel of understanding why you died and a sense of "fairness" (that you also enjoyed, as many of us). I may be wrong ofc!
Because the alternative for real time, at least in the industry and for what I've seen, are button smashing games where you play some sort of a "godly" entity like Spiderman, Batman or Devil May Cry games.
For the record, I LOVE your channel and your games.
Oh, also, I completely agree about having high level enemies in low level areas. Those add tons of immersion to the world. The feeling that this world does not care about you. Probably the biggest contrast would be base Skyrim. I can remember when I played it for the first time, and felt devastated when I realized that the entire world of enemies changed with my level. Going into a dragon lair at level 7 and still having a chance? Sudently wolves turned into leopards in the entire world??? So incredibly immersion breaking!
I found that curious as well. They're not so much choreographed, imo, as they rely on time and timing. It can feel like a dance at times because there is a goldilocks flow state the player can enter into as opposed to being required to use attacks, feints and dodges at specific juntures and that's what makes the combat more interesting than most other combat systems. I gather that's why so many developers are copying the style and "Souls-like combat" has become a thing.
When it comes to Elden Ring, most complaints about the combat have to do with the player having to wait around while some of the bosses run through ridiculously long movesets before melee players, especially, can get in for a single strike and at least one boss requiring a specific moveset or Art on the part of the player to avoid her most devastating, overpowered and unpredictably timed attack. Magic classes can still just spam attacks from a distance while the boss puts on its show, but that's the problem with those particular fights, as I see it. They're all show (and light show) and little to no dance.
S stands for Super, at least that's what I always thought, apparently it's Shuu in Japense. I'm not very familiar with Japenese grading system, but I find it surprising that many people don't understand this convention.
As a note, S>A is very common in Japanese games and media because that’s how school grades with in Japan. S is the equivalent of an A+. Just a little cultural quirk that has been leaking through even to western games
I think it's interesting that you find the dance in wow raids specifically to be not so good, because that was the aspect of wow's raids that I fell in love with especially later at the mythic level where one bad step means death for the entire party. That was where you really put your knowledge and skill to the test, because while you are doing the dance you are also required to perform your classes role to the absolute maximum peak. I feel like too many options can often lead to a loss of identity in favor of having a universal "X Utility" and allows players to make fundamental mistakes due to lack of foresight or foreknowledge that later down the line after having spent hours building up wrong, barring them from further progression within the game unless they scrap everything and start back from square one.
This was a big problem with early Wow's talent tree, the point system ended up causing a lot of issues with player and character viability going into the endgame content and the cookie cutter builds emerged, which then caused the endgame content to be tuned around the cookie cutter builds cementing their place within the game and eventually leading to the removal of the point system and the replacement of the modern talent row system.
I think you would really get a kick out of playing a game like Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne or the more recent numbered entry in 5, based on what you're saying you liked about those early MMO worlds. They are genuinely infamous for the exact reason you mention, you never feel like you're safe and things can go wrong at any second if you slip up or make a mistake, while constantly challenging the player with difficulty walls that provide compensatory rewards worthy of the challenges and force them to constantly be considering their strategies against enemy types and configurations as well as bosses.
I am a huge morrowind fan and I really enjoyed elden ring for those exact reasons
Whoa! I was wondering if you'd ever bring up EQ on your channel
Your experience of Elden Ring being more accessible than other Souls games is reminiscent of Jon's over at MATN. (He couldn't get into the earlier Souls games, either, which is strange because he's generally all about a game's mechanics, i.e. "an enjoyable gameplay loop.") From was apparently shooting for that target and just as apparently hit it. Get stuck on a boss? No problem. Go elsewhere for a while, maybe level a little more, etc. And a lot of people have mentioned that it wasn't apparent where and how to access sorceries, suggesting it would have been better had the sorcery "vendor" been in the hub along with the faith spell vendors, but she was behind yet another boss fog wall that probably shouldn't have been a boss fog wall because Pumpkin Head is not a boss. It's just another NPC on which From bestowed an enormous health bar and called a boss. ("Boss fight fatigue" definitely became a thing for many people who would have preferred all the bosses to be unique and, therefore, imminently memorable.)
I only wish the game had something to offer in those beautiful "legacy" locations aside from killing everything in your path, but combat is the name of the game in most of From's titles, so I'll just have to lament there being no lively towns or cities to become immersed in as in a traditional RPG.
You don't lose levels in From Soft, you just lose your unspent XP, XP is also your money, spend it or lose. The S-F is a Japan thing, in Japan S is higher then A in grading, fairly common for games to use it as well such as Metal Gear, Sonic, Devil May Cry, and so on. This said on the weapons deal, yeah you likely want to find what move set you like and then look up what will do most damage for your build with it, the scaling in ER is relative not tier based unlike Demon Souls and the like.
I feel like you haven't really played Dark Souls, Tim, because just about every specific bit you complimented Elden Ring for is inherited from Dark Souls. And the choreographed combat that you did not enjoy in Dark Souls is largely the same in Elden Ring. It would be interesting if you gave Dark Souls 1 a proper chance and came back to this video - how your perspective would or would not shift.
the 'S' in japanese style grading systems stands for "Special" a lot of japanese games use this.
oh man i have the best story about the mimic veil. so a friend and i were doing this dungeon in Elden ring. we got invaded. used the mimic veil and hid in corners as candles. the invader ran by us like 10 times, i was sweating bullets and talking to my friend over VC, "Dude dude, hes gonna notice us! Ah! here he comes again! Oh God!" after a while the invader just left it was hillarious.
I see the spell progression and weapons system as, more roguelike in nature, you pick up a greatsword and until you swing it around you won't really know it's strengths.
Hahahah, the more things change the more they stay the same, eh?
Honestly, the "XP loss on death" mechanic in FromSoft games is so fundamental that people will indeed riot if you change it. The reason is that we are simply conditioned to it at this point, but unlike what I presume EQ did, which was "death=lost XP" Elden Ring's runes are a universal currency and they are recoverable on death. Because you can recover, it is made as a goal for the player to retrieve them and have an incentive to face the area and enemy composition again, with the caveat of "OK, now I know what killed me".
This is why it's considered core to the Elden Ring experience. You fail, but you are given a chance to use what you've learned to recover. Or simply get so used to it, that it doesn't phase you and you always just have the opportunity to move on, and make up that lost currency through exploration.
While I agree the lack of quest markers forces you to interact with the world in a more integrative sense, I also agree that would be nice for Quests to include some more mechanically relevant rewards rather than lore specific items and interactions. I love the latter, but with the obtuse and basic design of the "quests" it will be a blessing and a curse. I do think that Elden Ring played with that idea more than before, clearly evident in one of main quest routes giving you the titular Moonlight Greatsword, a weapon that's been in ALL Soulsbourna games. So for veterans, it's like reuniting with an old friend, but only doing so with 3/4ths of the main quest progressed already. But yes, Soulsbourne questing has always been questionable, as it seems hard for it to move beyond from static NPCs and obtuseness to incentivize speculation and wonder.
I also thought you would criticize the weapon upgrade system, and how it softlocks trying other weapons and playstyles. Because a weapon in Elden Ring is far from just a stat stick with scaling assigned to weapons. The letters are somewhat based off arcade game rankings, i.e. E is the worst rank, getting to earlier letters means you're improving at the level, with A usually meaning that you're good and competent at it, while S is for *mastery*. You just assign that meaning to how well your weapon's numbers grow with that stat. And even the fattest Elden Ring stat sticks are not made viable in PvP unless they are given a *moveset* to compliment them accordingly.
Regardless of all this, it's great that Elden Ring did indeed manage to succeed hooking you into the formula. I'm sure you'll hear plenty of people now telling you: "Yes, you get it now, and can probably tackle Dark Souls 3 with far less difficulty."
I like how Blasphemous did it
At 1.18 I kinda expected him to go into a PaRappa the Rapper track.
And now I really want to hear a PaRappa track actually about Dark Souls combat...
Hey Tim, I'm curious if you know about the game RimWorld? I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.
I think these 'rambles' are a perfect way to talk about games without "reviewing" them. Talk about the mechanics, about interesting things they did. As youve said before, your perspective as a game designer is different from most players, so naturally videos centered around specific games should be different, too.
Also if you're looking for another fantasy ARPG, I'd recommend Dragon's Dogma. It does a lot of really interesting and unique things I wish more action games would take note of. It's got some early-game pacing issues, but I think any self-respecting RPG fan should give it a shot.