Good to see you online again Bhante Bro. I think I'm not too bad at judging mean from not mean, in Elders. The greatest difficulty I have is telling if the advice and/or command from an Elder is based on an accurate but very low resolution, oversimplified picture of me and the situation, or not. So it can be completely well intended, and all but completely wrong. Overall I think the subjective feeling of having been listened to has been a fair guide so far - but once I have that feeling, my desire to follow and even to lovingly serve my Elders seems to arise naturally anyway. It's like if I know that the Elder knows where I am coming from, then they have thus proven their legitimate position as Elder, as only the higher will be able to see the lower objectively and in detail, not vice versa. The Chinese and Asian way generally is to follow or at least appear to follow advice/commands regardless, and I do agree this is extremely important on many levels. Sometimes, hopefully often, the Elder acts on a level of subtlety the junior cannot see or feel at all, surface compliance gives everyone time and "face" enough to work out if that is the case. But also, obvious rebellion to (or even just disharmonious relations with) one's Elders, makes it inconsistent to then insist on compliance to one's own Elder authority. It has to then be "forced" by an act of Will, rather than coming from a place of graceful harmonious resonance with Principle. This can still "work", but I reckon it will be a drain on everyone's mental and physical health. Does that grok with your understanding? Any tips Bhante?
Lionel (Er Ge), Yes it does grok. Striving under authority when unwilling is tiring. Striving under authority when willing is inspiring. Elders have a duty therefore to hone the art of persuading juniors to be willing using enlightened means (and never ever deception). Being a good listener, i.e. listening with love (in general but especially to objection and critique) is a big part of the art of eldership/persuasion/enlightened leadership. Juniors can inspire elders to keep on getting better at the art of eldership by generating genuine appreciation for how difficult it is to be an elder (so hard it is, indeed, that very few people want to do it anymore). When they feel that their juniors genuinely appreciate them, good elders feel extra remorseful when they wield their authority unskilfully. This is the invisible hand that serves to correct those at the top. This flow of authenticity is the basis of healthy social hierarchies. When love flows downwards and upwards simultaneously there is order is the universe. When the juniors go wrong the elders should send compassion, not tyranny, downwards. When the elders go wrong, juniors should send gratitude, not rebellion, upwards. This the timeless way to heal communities (and the individual body-mind complex, but that's another story). BJ
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Good to see you online again Bhante Bro.
I think I'm not too bad at judging mean from not mean, in Elders. The greatest difficulty I have is telling if the advice and/or command from an Elder is based on an accurate but very low resolution, oversimplified picture of me and the situation, or not. So it can be completely well intended, and all but completely wrong.
Overall I think the subjective feeling of having been listened to has been a fair guide so far - but once I have that feeling, my desire to follow and even to lovingly serve my Elders seems to arise naturally anyway. It's like if I know that the Elder knows where I am coming from, then they have thus proven their legitimate position as Elder, as only the higher will be able to see the lower objectively and in detail, not vice versa.
The Chinese and Asian way generally is to follow or at least appear to follow advice/commands regardless, and I do agree this is extremely important on many levels. Sometimes, hopefully often, the Elder acts on a level of subtlety the junior cannot see or feel at all, surface compliance gives everyone time and "face" enough to work out if that is the case.
But also, obvious rebellion to (or even just disharmonious relations with) one's Elders, makes it inconsistent to then insist on compliance to one's own Elder authority. It has to then be "forced" by an act of Will, rather than coming from a place of graceful harmonious resonance with Principle. This can still "work", but I reckon it will be a drain on everyone's mental and physical health.
Does that grok with your understanding? Any tips Bhante?
Lionel (Er Ge),
Yes it does grok. Striving under authority when unwilling is tiring. Striving under authority when willing is inspiring. Elders have a duty therefore to hone the art of persuading juniors to be willing using enlightened means (and never ever deception). Being a good listener, i.e. listening with love (in general but especially to objection and critique) is a big part of the art of eldership/persuasion/enlightened leadership.
Juniors can inspire elders to keep on getting better at the art of eldership by generating genuine appreciation for how difficult it is to be an elder (so hard it is, indeed, that very few people want to do it anymore). When they feel that their juniors genuinely appreciate them, good elders feel extra remorseful when they wield their authority unskilfully. This is the invisible hand that serves to correct those at the top.
This flow of authenticity is the basis of healthy social hierarchies. When love flows downwards and upwards simultaneously there is order is the universe. When the juniors go wrong the elders should send compassion, not tyranny, downwards. When the elders go wrong, juniors should send gratitude, not rebellion, upwards. This the timeless way to heal communities (and the individual body-mind complex, but that's another story).
BJ
PalTV
Beautifully conveyed Bhante, thank you.
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