Awesome demonstration! I guess a soundboard needs to be stiff but wood is only stiff in one direction so it needs to be put under stress in the direction against the grains to get it stiff in that direction, which is done by ribs. The ribs is what you demonstratie (thank you Chernobief). Putting wood under stress in the direction of the grains will make it resonate better with high pitch tones, as the stiffness is increased to the max, as you demonstrate. Am I right? By the way, the ribs do not get that much tension as in your demonstration, do they? They support the tension of the board against the grains, so that could never be a lot, or?
Craig, What happens if you 1) Bend the wood beyond where you found the loudest response, and 2) Bend it the other direction (concave rather than convex)? Peter Grey Piano Doctor
the tuning fork is not the same as a vibrating string. yes adding stiffness produced nice overtones on a tuning fork meant to vibrate primarily at a pure frequency. yes having a well designed and implemented soundboard will sound best. however a "flat" soundboard can still produce overtones from the vibrating string and one might even argue a truer representation of the actual string. this is the case with solidbody guitars: they add little if any overtones beyond the string vibration. in contrast semi and full hollow body guitars act like this tuning fork and add more tonal color. Ask the great les paul which one he preferred. just my thoughts from a guitar perspective. thanks for the video !!
Right, and any thin wood under pressure will adapt to any stress and shape after a few months. So, all the crown is doing is just counterbalancing the strings pressure, and it's a convenient shape. But it's got nothing to do with change in tone. The soundboard could be flat and sound great like any other soundboard.
"Johann Georg Greber in Innsprug" ~1810. This piano came out of nowhere. Offered at auction in Chicago; It was listed as "The property of a Lady." Unfortunately, thank Heavens, it was listed as a harpsichord. Consequently, the harpsichord people took one look and walked away, while the pianoforte people never even looked. Luckily, my client looked closely at all the pictures and scooped it up. It seems to be a close follower of Anton Walter's design.
It amazes me how a "rebuilder" can take a gimmick and come to sooo many wrong conclusions. First, you are putting the gimmic in a state of tension. The total opposite of the condition in a piano. It's called compression, and uses the total opposite grain direction. Tension would destroy a piano soundboard. As the old saying goes " just let the fool speak, and he'll tell everyone himself".
OK. I generally would not respond to a comment that contains an insult. But if we are exchanging aphorisms about arguing with fools... My favorite is, "Never argue with a fool. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." But for the benefit of those who might read your post, I feel I should. Gimmick is a rough word. It is a device. As a device, it demonstrates a mechanical-acoustic phenomenon. And I hope I did a fair job of describing the underlying physics. Your objection comes from your assumption that the element being modeled is the soundboard panel. The element being modeled is the rib. If you can see the resonator in the device as a very wide, very thin rib, then I think you would agree that both are put under similar directional stess. It is the expansion of the panel that induces this strain in the ribs. The crown is the result. From a Bellyman's perspective I think that the device shows that, given the correct construction techniques, the ribs can be turned into active acoustic elements, and that the benefits of doing so can be dramatic. This would, in my opinion, be the chief distinction between compression and Rib Crowned soundboards.
@@hampshirepiano6383 The fact that you are not actually demonstrating with a rib, but using a "device" and then say that's what happens in a rib, says it all. If you are trying to make a soundboard more resonant and rich in tonal color this is a dead end. It's all about maximizing the strength to weight ratio, not seeking magic wood.
Chernobieff, I don't know what your problem is and why you are so rude that often to this channel, which you visit voluntarily. You are aware that your posts are public, right? I have to say, it just shows a most unprofessional character by these displays of rudeness... It is quite sad. It would be so easy to just not type anything. Take a note from the reply of the channel's owner down below. If you want to discuss or disagree, stay professional and back up claims. It is really not that hard to not insult people. And if you can't, then it is as easy as stop typing and go do something else...
@@clepsyd when you come across someone who strongly believes in flying horses, unicorns, and Martians and all reasoning doesn't sink in. "Fool" is the only word left. I'm trying to help the guy save decades of his life pursuing a false idea. It already shows on his youtube channel. Look how videos he's posted on this topic. If there was indeed an acoustic advantage to be gained, he would have done by now. Also, the fact that he's still looking, what does that say of the work he's already done?
@@ChernobieffPiano I love you both and I hate you're argueing. Your common ground is passion for piano building, come on now! Some people are polite and others direct.
Great to see a new post. I loved following the series on the 33b restoration….is that piano now done? Would love to see and hear the finished product!
Awesome demonstration!
I guess a soundboard needs to be stiff but wood is only stiff in one direction so it needs to be put under stress in the direction against the grains to get it stiff in that direction, which is done by ribs. The ribs is what you demonstratie (thank you Chernobief).
Putting wood under stress in the direction of the grains will make it resonate better with high pitch tones, as the stiffness is increased to the max, as you demonstrate. Am I right?
By the way, the ribs do not get that much tension as in your demonstration, do they? They support the tension of the board against the grains, so that could never be a lot, or?
Craig,
What happens if you 1) Bend the wood beyond where you found the loudest response, and 2) Bend it the other direction (concave rather than convex)?
Peter Grey Piano Doctor
Peter,
The response drops by about 30%, grows thin but stays clear. Bending it the other direction has the same effect.
Craig
the tuning fork is not the same as a vibrating string. yes adding stiffness produced nice overtones on a tuning fork meant to vibrate primarily at a pure frequency. yes having a well designed and implemented soundboard will sound best. however a "flat" soundboard can still produce overtones from the vibrating string and one might even argue a truer representation of the actual string. this is the case with solidbody guitars: they add little if any overtones beyond the string vibration. in contrast semi and full hollow body guitars act like this tuning fork and add more tonal color. Ask the great les paul which one he preferred. just my thoughts from a guitar perspective. thanks for the video !!
Right, and any thin wood under pressure will adapt to any stress and shape after a few months. So, all the crown is doing is just counterbalancing the strings pressure, and it's a convenient shape. But it's got nothing to do with change in tone. The soundboard could be flat and sound great like any other soundboard.
Ooooh, what is the instrument behind you?!?
"Johann Georg Greber in Innsprug" ~1810. This piano came out of nowhere. Offered at auction in Chicago; It was listed as "The property of a Lady." Unfortunately, thank Heavens, it was listed as a harpsichord. Consequently, the harpsichord people took one look and walked away, while the pianoforte people never even looked. Luckily, my client looked closely at all the pictures and scooped it up.
It seems to be a close follower of Anton Walter's design.
@@hampshirepiano6383 Wowowowowowow!!!!!! If I might be of any help (having restored a ca.1830 Stein), get in touch.
It amazes me how a "rebuilder" can take a gimmick and come to sooo many wrong conclusions. First, you are putting the gimmic in a state of tension. The total opposite of the condition in a piano. It's called compression, and uses the total opposite grain direction. Tension would destroy a piano soundboard. As the old saying goes " just let the fool speak, and he'll tell everyone himself".
OK.
I generally would not respond to a comment that contains an insult.
But if we are exchanging aphorisms about arguing with fools...
My favorite is,
"Never argue with a fool. They will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
But for the benefit of those who might read your post, I feel I should.
Gimmick is a rough word. It is a device.
As a device, it demonstrates a mechanical-acoustic phenomenon.
And I hope I did a fair job of describing the underlying physics.
Your objection comes from your assumption that the element being modeled is the soundboard panel.
The element being modeled is the rib.
If you can see the resonator in the device as a very wide, very thin rib, then I think you would agree that both are put under similar directional stess.
It is the expansion of the panel that induces this strain in the ribs.
The crown is the result.
From a Bellyman's perspective I think that the device shows that, given the correct construction techniques, the ribs can be turned into active acoustic elements, and that the benefits of doing so can be dramatic.
This would, in my opinion, be the chief distinction between compression and Rib Crowned soundboards.
@@hampshirepiano6383 The fact that you are not actually demonstrating with a rib, but using a "device" and then say that's what happens in a rib, says it all. If you are trying to make a soundboard more resonant and rich in tonal color this is a dead end. It's all about maximizing the strength to weight ratio, not seeking magic wood.
Chernobieff, I don't know what your problem is and why you are so rude that often to this channel, which you visit voluntarily. You are aware that your posts are public, right? I have to say, it just shows a most unprofessional character by these displays of rudeness... It is quite sad. It would be so easy to just not type anything. Take a note from the reply of the channel's owner down below. If you want to discuss or disagree, stay professional and back up claims. It is really not that hard to not insult people. And if you can't, then it is as easy as stop typing and go do something else...
@@clepsyd when you come across someone who strongly believes in flying horses, unicorns, and Martians and all reasoning doesn't sink in. "Fool" is the only word left. I'm trying to help the guy save decades of his life pursuing a false idea. It already shows on his youtube channel. Look how videos he's posted on this topic. If there was indeed an acoustic advantage to be gained, he would have done by now. Also, the fact that he's still looking, what does that say of the work he's already done?
@@ChernobieffPiano I love you both and I hate you're argueing. Your common ground is passion for piano building, come on now! Some people are polite and others direct.