I'm a retired small arms technician for the Army and I can assure you that 12 gauge #8 or #7 bird shot under 30 ft is deadly inside a house. Especially with a full choke. It's also an excellent choice to use to keep over penetration from happening with something like 00 Buck. Anybody that doesn't believe this can test it out for themselves on some pork ribs or look at Paul Harrel's video where he tests bird shot against various targets like meat and drywall.
@@Jenda-ld8dj Agreed. The worst possible shotgun shells still beat NO shotgun shells when defending yourself from attack. Visually, the difference in the effect on the two targets was not especially visible on the screen. Maybe up close and personal they are but not remotely. Personally, I prefer 27 pellet Fiochi #4 buck as my primary home defense 12-ga. load. An alternative to that would be BB shot. At 5-10 yards, a load of 12-ga. shot seems to vary from devastating to horrific. Either way, the target is neutralized. If not, shotguns usually have multi-round capacity, which is a very good thing when confronted by multiple home invaders coming into your home to do you harm. A shotgun is extremely intimidating, both in the mere sight of it being pointed at you and also the terrific boom that it makes when rounds are fired. While these might not deter an adversary, in a lot of cases they will do just that. Getting this person or people out of your home and away from your family is job #1. If you can do that without firing a shot, so much the better.
When they are standing there looking at you is one thing. When they are drug crazed and drugged numb, foaming from the mouth running at you with a machete, @@patcline6972 , good time to select the proper ammo.
I talked to a Paramedic in Houston, Tx. that had a 25 year career there and he said that at one shooting scene that he went to one guy had a 9mm pistol and he had been shot by a guy on the other side of the room with a 12ga. loaded with bird shot and his upper bicep was completely shredded and blown against the wall with bone visible and was slumped against the wall in a deep state of shock and unresponsive ! The guy with the shotgun was yelling/ cussing and hit in the shoulder with one round from the 9mm and was combative , so I would say the bird shot was a better choice at least in that shoot out !
Have a cousin who was an ER doctor residence through to about 10 years, a fairly large city, before he moved back to the small town he grew up in. He told several of us at a family reunion that in that time the ER would get 3-4 people shot with birdshot at home defense range. If the shot was solid in the torso the person never survived, he said the small shot shreds the tissue and you just can't sew stuff up fast enough to keep them from bleeding out. For extremities he said the persons odds where a lot better but you had to watch for infection and small pellets dislodging and traveling through the circulatory system,
Wrong. You obviously have never seen what #4 turkey load can do with the right choke at close range inside the house distances. Its not your average birdshot but there are also plenty of coroners that can verify that birdshot kills at close range. There are plenty of documented cases of death by birdshot. A lot depends on the choke, length of barrel, and distance but any shotgun birdshot inside ten yards will neutralize a threat if not kill. Pattern your shotgun at distance. It will turn tissue to hamburger, and it will go between ribs and into lungs. The pellets are almost impossible to get out of bones and other tissue. It will not kill people in the next room over. You can look it up on the web and on UA-cam all documented.
He didn't compare buckshot to your slightly smaller pelleted high performance turkey load.! He showed what a basic target light duty bird load does. Did you watch the vid.?!
@@LogisticallyMisrepresented Yes I did. Any birdshot even light duty target inside of ten yards will neutralize if not kill a threat. That has been documented. I already posted that and you did not bother to read it. He only showed a paper target. Not the ballistic effect.
@@oddish4352 , When I, for home defense, use 12 #4 buckshot, 2"shell and a 1.5 dram powder charge. The ballistic gel penetration is 5 to 7 inches. The shot spread is less than 2 inches at 21 feet with a 21.5 inch full choke barrel. At 12 inches of penetration there's too much chance of exiting from the back, in my opinion. 5 to 7 inches penetration, 2 inch spread and firing @center mass means impact with Heart, lungs, diaphragm and/or liver. This is what we were taught at the Academy back in '77.
My Rugar LCP 380 works just fine inside or outside of my home. It's always with me, whereas a shotgun will always be sitting somewhere, which may or may not be where the trouble is.
Paper is a piss poor medium for self defense testing. Set up a couple hams and do same. I will most likely have a second round of bird shot on target before pulling the trigger on second round of buckshot. I prefer Flight Control turkey load myself.
If I got hit with either one, I would consider leaving immediately- and NOT coming back. I bruise easily so I have adopted a special technique. It’s so simple! DO NOT COME THROUGH SOMEONES FRONT DOOR UNLESS YOU HAVE AN INVITATION. Protocol for those of us who actually focus on loving our neighbor and obeying the law. I would throw in a healthy respect and gratitude for my local law enforcement. //John in Oregon
Well ya… but I did see the reaction on the berm of the majority of the shot column hitting back there. But target (skeet) loads are #8 or #7-1/2 shot 1oz or 1-1/8 oz loads. I use 1-1/4 oz of #4 shot in what’s called 2-3/4 magnum load ( higher velocity). At 30 ft which is the longest distance in my house, it will blow a tennis ball sized hole through 3/4 plywood but fail to exit the equivalent of an exterior wall. Buckshot will pass right through both. As you stated we are responsible for every shot fired. Based on this I think old school turkey loads like mine in #2 , #4 , or #5 shot are very effective and relatively safe loads for inside the home. If you happen to live with no close neighbors then buckshot is absolutely the best option but most people will have neighbors close enough to be concerned about.
Agreed. His commentary at the beginning seems to be contradictory to the desired result he claims he wants. Buckshot travels through walls with lots of killing power left over. Birdshot simply does not. BOTH are devastating on a human targets at typical in-home ranges. So, if lethality without deadly overpenetration is your goal, he seems to have proven large birdshot as the proper choice for in-home self defense. Spread is NOT the detractor in causing "flyers" because range of use is extremely short in most home-based engagements. Don't believe it? Find an old 55 gallon burn barrel somewhere and shoot it with 7.5 shot 12 gauge from about 5 yards with a modified choke. Punches a hole about the size of your fist right through it and leaves very little damage on the far side.
Birdshot won't penetrate much past the skin. It simply won't reach deep enough to incapacitate someone. The smallest that can reliably do that is #4 buck.
@@immikeurnot bullshit . If #4 birdshot from basically turkey loads will blast a 3” hole through 3/4 plywood at 30 ft it’s going to blow straight through the sternum and ribcage. The shot and bone fragments will purée the organs that are in the way and probably not exit the back.
Yes, you could clearly see the impact on the berm. I've done the same test on scrap 1x6 lumber with birdshot. At 5 yards, it blew a hole about 1" OD right through the board.
Say what you will about bird shot , but I’ve been hit a couple times with #8 at about 75 - 100 yards +- while dove hunting let me tell ya it hurts like hell even at that range , so don’t even try to tell me bird shot won’t do the job from a choked 12 ga at 30 feet . Now if you are talking. Cylinder bore at 50 yards against some one in a thick leather jacket yeah that may not be a kill shot but I’ll betcha they ain’t gonna be happy . Full choke at 30 feet , the chest cavity is gonna be hamburger. And the heart and lungs ain’t that deep .
@@alanrawson-wg8io yeah , tell me about it . I’m certainly not sayin #8 shot is my first choice of a defensive load , but in close it can be devastating..
A 12 gauge turkey load, a full choke or extended full choke will blow a hole through a refrigerator door at "home defense distances". Find an old fridge and make a video
My Great Grand dad loaded his own shells, as many did in those days. He showed me some shells that had all of the pellets in beeswax...they came out like a slug, and dispersed on impact. He said....ot was to keep most of the pellets in one area. Something to ponder..🤔
My main concern with 00 bucshot is is't penitration of drywall. Hitting the neighbors or someone in another room is a bad thing. It was my understanding that something with ~16 pellets (#2 bird?) will penatrate flash but not go through walls. I bow to your superior experience.
As an instructor I feel a shotgun is a poor choice for home defense. I train people to use 7 1/2 shot game loads for inside your house. At 10 to 15 feet, which probably a realistic distance in a house, the shot will spread to 5” or less. It would cause a tremendous wound at that distance. If you miss a wall will probably stop the round. If you use a slug or 00 Buck, the round will penetrate two or three walls so if the bad guy is against an exterior wall you have just put a round through 1 or 2 walls of the house next door. In my opinion this guy needs to understand what shotgun will and will not do.
Did you miss that 2” hole in the middle of the square? I’ve got an idea, try the same setup only shoot at clay blocks, I think you’ll change your mind.
Yet not a word about patterning with whatever load you intend to use. One needs to sample different brands of the same load in every shotgun you I tend to use. 00 from Federal will pattern differently from 00 Winchester. You won’t know until you spend the ammo, time, targets and sore shoulders carefully patterning for each load. Some barrels love slugs, hitting dead center but put shot loads into another time zone. Sequential serial number barrels may pattern completely differently.
I find that 04 magnum buckshot works well.. Federal used to make that round back in the day that had 42 pellets per round and out of a 18-3/4 barrel it was devastating inside of 30 feet
I know of two men that are dead. They took three blasts from bird shot at close range, and they are no longer with the living! The thing about double-ought Buck, is it doesn't just stop in the body, it could go through and hit your kids in the next room where the bird shot won't go through sheetrock and kill somebody in the next room.
He needs to have a lot more life experience, shooting shotguns,, if you choose number two or number for shot at 15 feet, it will blow a hole about the size of a small apple through three-quarter inch plywood. It will usually blow a hole through a 2 x 4. yes, you’re always going to have some flyers around the pattern. but the center mass is devastating at 15 or 20 feet. and you don’t have to worry about over penetration going to far threw your house into somebody else’s house. he obviously has never shot number #2 or #4 shot in the distance of a normal room of a house into wood. The only time I would ever consider using buckshot for self-defense. would be outside of the house that has family members inside. for distance over 30 or 40 feet.
Anything 12 gauge at bedroom distances will end a fight. Does not matter if it's birdshot or buckshot it will be man down. I assure you the brain won't be able to tell the difference between a face full of birdshot or face full of buckshot
I have a photo of a dead man with a fist sized hole in his sternum with some #8 or so sized pellets around the edges of that hole that you could look into. If you are a big fella like you then use the 00 Buck. If you are recoil sensitive like grandma or a 12 year old girl that is well practiced with bird shot in a 12 gauge at most home defense distances, bird shot is better. Small people shooting something they are afraid to practice with and don't shoot well is not as effective. That's a fact.
"There's no such thing as misses; there's only unintended hits." That is wrong for multiple reasons. First, tactically speaking (and if you're in a fight for your life, that's the kind that counts) if you don't hit the target then you missed. Second, the saying implies that every bullet or pellet that misses the intended target will hit someone else, and that's simple not true. Unless you're firing into a crowd, that saying is just wrong in every meaningful way.
Did you mean to hit the tree behind the guy? If not then its a unintended hit. what you were intending on hitting is the person or animal attacking you or paper targets. If you dont hit what you wanted to its a unintended hit.
@@archaicgaming5950 unless the tree was protected or something then it's not "a hit". Hitting the ground or a tree or the side of the mountain isn't a hit. It's only a hit if it was the intended target or if it incurred severe collateral damage. Otherwise it's disingenuous to characterise all bullet impacts as "hits". Moreover, even if all bullet impacts could be honestly characterized as "hits" it still doesn't support the conclusion that "there are no misses". Thanks.
@@davidhoffman6980 A miss is anything that didn't hit the intended target. it unintentionally hit something else than what you wanted. making it a unintended hit.
@@archaicgaming5950 that's only true if you define all impacts regardless of speed and power as hits - this would include a squib fire where the bullet exited the barrel and immediately fell to the ground with almost zero velocity. However, falling to the ground is not the normal meaning of the word. Also, even if I accepted your definition, you would have still refuted the claim that "there are no misses".
All that talk about avoiding over penetration and flyers, so what happens? The bird shot puts a knock down hole in the target and but then stops in the backing for limited over penetration and flyer protection. The "preferred" round - a knock down hole in the target and 8 buckshot in the next room.
He said it's like shooting 8 9mms at once but he forgot to mention that these are FMJs going about 270 feet per second faster. This video had no discussion, research, or evidence whatsoever about the comparative effectiveness of the two loads. And why did he test them at 5 yards? Is he making a stand at the end of a long hallway shooting into the far end of the living room?
We have whatever brand 00 loaded (at expected range of 12-13 Feet brand really doesn't matter), but If someone has nothing but a few birdshot loads in the house I'd damn sure recommend using the stuff...anything (and that includes birdshot) beats nothing...sure, you'd think finding even a small box of buckshot would be doable, but people Will be people...some folks depend on single action .22 revolvers, or single shot .410s (000 is a great load), that is just what it is...good video...
A good video but... Exactly backwards thinking in regard for the HOME-DEFENSE Scenario. 1st: what the heck is behind those targets?!? In 60+ years I've never seen a birdshot load of any mfr that wouldn't blow a hand-width hole thru common target board materials at 5 yds (15 feet.) I've demonstrated this many many times over the years. 2nd: the birdshot target was clearly would've been "neutralized" by the load that struck him. 3rd: All buckshot loads are as-lethal for anyone behind the intended-target as they are for the target. Maybe loads for waterfowl or turkeys would be better if you just don't think birdshot is adequate. This video very nearly falls into the "Oh Brother" category but the camera work was pretty good. A-Men to the previous comment.
I have seen quite a few videos on home defense, this includes shotgun, rifle and pistol. But what I have not seen anyone discuss is types of homes, how close neighbors are or how close neighbor is. There is a lot to consider and if you choose wrong and accidently shoot a neighbor, you can conceivably end up in prison. While I do not see #8 shot as a viable home defense round, in some cases it would actually be the best round. I would really like to see a video that actually considers the options and discusses what round would be appropriate in each scenario.
Target load is also far less likely to actually incapacitate an intruder. Anything capable of incapacitating a human being is going to penitrate several layers of building material.
the idea of bird shot in a home is that it will not over-penetrate outside of your home buckshot is more dangerous to others in your home and outside of it get a fing clue why certain ammo types are used
Just where are you supposed to find this elusive round? I don't remember ever seeing at retailers and every website I've checked either only has 9 pellet loads or, if they supposedly actually carry the 8 pellet variety, it is ALWAYS out of stock.
Hornady uses the same wad in their Black and Critical Defense lines (Versatite wad is the same as Flitecontrol) and has 8 pellet 00B loads. They don't pattern quite as tight as Federal because they don't copper plate their shot like Federal, but it's still very good.
Talking fast and in a circle, sounding like a small town used car salesman, and having no idea how balistic works, does not make your opinion or advise valid. For your own good, read a book, watch some valid videos, and cut down on mayo. 😂
If someone is worried about over penetration, load a shotgun shell with different shot diameters in them, but inside a house, bird shot will injure or kill an intruder.
00 buck flight control? Is your hallway 80 yards long? Also, everyone (except paul blart here) knows, after the shot, leave the breach open. If there were another in the mag tube, he just chambered it up when he wasn't ready to fire.
I took a 12 gage 6 shot in the side of the head at about 40 yards. Took me off my feet. Felt like i was hit in the side of the head with a hammer. I still carry shot in my head to this day. DAMM IT HURT. THEN I HAD TO WALK HALF A MILE BACK TO THE TRUCK.LET ME TELL YOU HEAD WOUNDS BLEED. THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO DIE. WOULDN'T THINK SURVIVAL RATE WOULD BE VERY HIGH AT 10 YARDS EVEN WITH 6 OR 4 SHOT
I definitely wouldn't use birdshot for defense. It doesn't hit hard enough and/or penetrate deep enough. It won't stop anyone, especially if they're hopped up on something.
I use #4 shot in lead , 9 pellet buck(lead) and maybe a slug or 2 .................I mix it up !!! I think steel pellets would ricochet against some hard surfaces , a better outside round !!!
If its what you have then better than nothing but personally I'd switch to something else. I prefer 00 buck but in your situation #4 buckshot might be a good option. Just make sure you pattern it in your gun at distances relevant to your home
4 shot is a fine choice for a home security shotgun. So are 00B. Both are devastating at cl9ser ranges. My biggest concern with any shotgun is whether the liberal judge/prosecutor/grand jury decides that your choice of weapon/load was so you could maximize chances of killing an intruder, vs merely stopping them.
How bout #4 bk or #1 bk? This is hypothetical because whatever is in the gun when the shooting starts is what you gotta use. I'd think they would penetrate better than bird shit but not as much as the larger buckshot. Also how bout hevishot or tss in goose load. Like b or #2 it's very high density hard metal.
Nice short, sweet, to the point demo. All the best! "The JJ" SW Penna.
Місяць тому
Even birdshot would be better at close range under 10 yards. It is not to be assumed that a person woken from a sleep in the night who must jump up grab a shotgun then face a moving intruder in panic mode is going to hit the intruder center mass. That tight pattern of the Federal load may miss the target entirely under stress and you may not get another shot off if the intruder is armed.
BS. BTW, birdshot is not limited to #8, at all. I do agree with your written summary: "There's a LOT of bad advice when it comes to shotguns, especially for home defense."
This video is so bad. The title says "home defense" and he says repeatedly in the video "self defense". Does he not know the difference? Also, how big is his house? Why did he test the ammo at 5 yards? Why not 2-3 yards? Is his house 2,000 yards from his nearest neighbors? If not, why didn't he mention over-penetration? He acted as if there's no reason why someone would prefer birdshot over buckshot. What about people that live in apartments? Why was there no evidence, research, or even discussion about the effectiveness of birdshot as a man-stopper (he fired two rounds and then jumped to conclusions).
Also he used 2 loads that have at least 16 shot sizes between them. Because apparently English Mastiff and Chihuahua are the only available guard dog options.
Federal Flight Control is all I stoke in my HD 930 tactical. 8 in the gun, two 8 round cards. One on the receiver, one on the butt stock. I agree with most here that ANYTHING coming out of a Shotgun at close range would be devastating. I live in the country. Little to no risk of collateral damage. If I lived in the city my choices might be different. I personally want the advantage of devastating effect at close range and the possibility to be effective at longer ranges if needed. I have tested a number of different brands, and loads. The flight control is my choice.
That’s exactly what I load in my shotgun. The longest distance inside my house is 15 1/2 yards. I want the best grouping round I can find. The flyer you see so often with the 9 pellet is why I use the 8 pellet load. Another great video sir.
My home defense shotgun is always loaded as follows first round...rock salt with some small rocks in it... second round #4 lead shot standard game load... third round 3 inch magnum deer slug... Next clip 3 more slugs !!!
Never fire any shot sjze through a rifled barrel. I've fired buckshot through my 870 rifled barrel at 5 yards and didn't get a single pellet on the paper.Evidently the rifling gives it an extremely wide pattern
I'm a retired small arms technician for the Army and I can assure you that 12 gauge #8 or #7 bird shot under 30 ft is deadly inside a house. Especially with a full choke. It's also an excellent choice to use to keep over penetration from happening with something like 00 Buck. Anybody that doesn't believe this can test it out for themselves on some pork ribs or look at Paul Harrel's video where he tests bird shot against various targets like meat and drywall.
"Any lead that is fired from any gun/rifle is deadly"-CBT
@@Jenda-ld8dj Agreed. The worst possible shotgun shells still beat NO shotgun shells when defending yourself from attack.
Visually, the difference in the effect on the two targets was not especially visible on the screen. Maybe up close and personal
they are but not remotely. Personally, I prefer 27 pellet Fiochi #4 buck as my primary home defense 12-ga. load. An alternative
to that would be BB shot. At 5-10 yards, a load of 12-ga. shot seems to vary from devastating to horrific. Either way, the target
is neutralized. If not, shotguns usually have multi-round capacity, which is a very good thing when confronted by multiple home
invaders coming into your home to do you harm. A shotgun is extremely intimidating, both in the mere sight of it being pointed
at you and also the terrific boom that it makes when rounds are fired. While these might not deter an adversary, in a lot of cases
they will do just that. Getting this person or people out of your home and away from your family is job #1. If you can do that
without firing a shot, so much the better.
Anything out of a shotgun at close quarters… I dare YOU to stand in front of it
Oh, it’s only #7 birdshot to my face and chest. I think I’ll keep going….. said no intruder, ever!
I wouldn't want to get hit with anything from a shot gun at 30 ft
Not even the wad.
I don't want to get hit with a BB gun, but that doesn't make it legitimate for self defense.
@@immikeurnot i could put your eye out like on Christmas story 😂😂😂😂
Exactly. Concerning the 12 Guage, pretty much any hull you stuff in it can save your day. Or night.
When they are standing there looking at you is one thing. When they are drug crazed and drugged numb, foaming from the mouth running at you with a machete, @@patcline6972 , good time to select the proper ammo.
I saw the x-rays of a w3man shot in the chest by her husband with birdshot at close range.
The penetration of the pellets were incompatible with life.
I talked to a Paramedic in Houston, Tx. that had a 25 year career there and he said that at one shooting scene that he went to one guy had a 9mm pistol and he had been shot by a guy on the other side of the room with a 12ga. loaded with bird shot and his upper bicep was completely shredded and blown against the wall with bone visible and was slumped against the wall in a deep state of shock and unresponsive ! The guy with the shotgun was yelling/ cussing and hit in the shoulder with one round from the 9mm and was combative , so I would say the bird shot was a better choice at least in that shoot out !
Have a cousin who was an ER doctor residence through to about 10 years, a fairly large city, before he moved back to the small town he grew up in.
He told several of us at a family reunion that in that time the ER would get 3-4 people shot with birdshot at home defense range. If the shot was solid in the torso the person never survived, he said the small shot shreds the tissue and you just can't sew stuff up fast enough to keep them from bleeding out. For extremities he said the persons odds where a lot better but you had to watch for infection and small pellets dislodging and traveling through the circulatory system,
Wrong. You obviously have never seen what #4 turkey load can do with the right choke at close range inside the house distances. Its not your average birdshot but there are also plenty of coroners that can verify that birdshot kills at close range. There are plenty of documented cases of death by birdshot. A lot depends on the choke, length of barrel, and distance but any shotgun birdshot inside ten yards will neutralize a threat if not kill. Pattern your shotgun at distance. It will turn tissue to hamburger, and it will go between ribs and into lungs. The pellets are almost impossible to get out of bones and other tissue. It will not kill people in the next room over. You can look it up on the web and on UA-cam all documented.
He didn't compare buckshot to your slightly smaller pelleted high performance turkey load.! He showed what a basic target light duty bird load does. Did you watch the vid.?!
Try steel shot.
turkey don't shoot back.
@@joerobo682 🤡
@@LogisticallyMisrepresented Yes I did. Any birdshot even light duty target inside of ten yards will neutralize if not kill a threat. That has been documented. I already posted that and you did not bother to read it. He only showed a paper target. Not the ballistic effect.
This guy doesn't have to worry about an intruder he needs to really be worrying about cardiovascular disease
At home distances either will work. The birdshot won’t penetrate like the 8-pellet, but it is still sufficient
Both did very well at 5 yards BUT the big diff is that the bird shoty will less likely go into other rooms thru walls and get the unintended 😁
The only sensible thing you said was MOSSBERG
870
I personally like low-recoil #4 buckshot for close range. It will provide very adequate penetration, and make a lot more holes.
My HD shotguns are both loaded with 4Buck. 27 .24" balls in the 12ga, 20 balls in the 20ga.
@@miloswanson9646 Very effective. 👍
@miloswanson9646,
#4 buck is all I've ever used, In both my personal and issued shotguns for the last 50 years.
@jmm4484 You get a lot of holes in the target, and the FBI recommended 12" of penetration.
@@oddish4352 ,
When I, for home defense, use 12 #4 buckshot, 2"shell and a 1.5 dram powder charge. The ballistic gel penetration is 5 to 7 inches. The shot spread is less than 2 inches at 21 feet with a 21.5 inch full choke barrel. At 12 inches of penetration there's too much chance of exiting from the back, in my opinion.
5 to 7 inches penetration, 2 inch spread and firing @center mass means impact with Heart, lungs, diaphragm and/or liver. This is what we were taught at the Academy back in '77.
My Rugar LCP 380 works just fine inside or outside of my home. It's always with me, whereas a shotgun will always be sitting somewhere, which may or may not be where the trouble is.
“A pistol is what you use to fight your way to your long gun.” Jeff Cooper
.380 is a JOKE !!!
Lcp does that @@stephenwalton9646
Paper is a piss poor medium for self defense testing. Set up a couple hams and do same. I will most likely have a second round of bird shot on target before pulling the trigger on second round of buckshot. I prefer Flight Control turkey load myself.
It's funny that the 2 targets are nearly identical and he only points to the buck load as "devastating" lol
If I got hit with either one, I would consider leaving immediately- and NOT coming back.
I bruise easily so I have adopted a special technique. It’s so simple!
DO NOT COME THROUGH SOMEONES FRONT DOOR UNLESS YOU HAVE AN INVITATION.
Protocol for those of us who actually focus on loving our neighbor and obeying the law.
I would throw in a healthy respect and gratitude for my local law enforcement. //John in Oregon
You know what else is devastating? Diabetes.
😂😂😂
Well ya… but I did see the reaction on the berm of the majority of the shot column hitting back there. But target (skeet) loads are #8 or #7-1/2 shot 1oz or 1-1/8 oz loads. I use 1-1/4 oz of #4 shot in what’s called 2-3/4 magnum load ( higher velocity). At 30 ft which is the longest distance in my house, it will blow a tennis ball sized hole through 3/4 plywood but fail to exit the equivalent of an exterior wall. Buckshot will pass right through both. As you stated we are responsible for every shot fired. Based on this I think old school turkey loads like mine in #2 , #4 , or #5 shot are very effective and relatively safe loads for inside the home. If you happen to live with no close neighbors then buckshot is absolutely the best option but most people will have neighbors close enough to be concerned about.
Agreed. His commentary at the beginning seems to be contradictory to the desired result he claims he wants. Buckshot travels through walls with lots of killing power left over. Birdshot simply does not. BOTH are devastating on a human targets at typical in-home ranges. So, if lethality without deadly overpenetration is your goal, he seems to have proven large birdshot as the proper choice for in-home self defense. Spread is NOT the detractor in causing "flyers" because range of use is extremely short in most home-based engagements. Don't believe it? Find an old 55 gallon burn barrel somewhere and shoot it with 7.5 shot 12 gauge from about 5 yards with a modified choke. Punches a hole about the size of your fist right through it and leaves very little damage on the far side.
Birdshot won't penetrate much past the skin. It simply won't reach deep enough to incapacitate someone. The smallest that can reliably do that is #4 buck.
@@immikeurnot bullshit .
If #4 birdshot from basically turkey loads will blast a 3” hole through 3/4 plywood at 30 ft it’s going to blow straight through the sternum and ribcage. The shot and bone fragments will purée the organs that are in the way and probably not exit the back.
@@immikeurnot😂 at ten yards most bird shot will penetrate just fine. At that distance it's basically a shot glass of lead 😂
Nailed it!
At close range, even the shot cup. Will penetrate I have even seen it
it the bird shot barley penetrated, then why the impact behind the target?at 15 feet bird shot is deadly
Yes, you could clearly see the impact on the berm.
I've done the same test on scrap 1x6 lumber with birdshot. At 5 yards, it blew a hole about 1" OD right through the board.
Say what you will about bird shot , but I’ve been hit a couple times with #8 at about 75 - 100 yards +- while dove hunting let me tell ya it hurts like hell even at that range , so don’t even try to tell me bird shot won’t do the job from a choked 12 ga at 30 feet .
Now if you are talking. Cylinder bore at 50 yards against some one in a thick leather jacket yeah that may not be a kill shot but I’ll betcha they ain’t gonna be happy . Full choke at 30 feet , the chest cavity is gonna be hamburger. And the heart and lungs ain’t that deep .
@@KrisK-i4f to roughly quote Clint Smith; I never met anyone who enjoyed the experience
@@alanrawson-wg8io yeah , tell me about it . I’m certainly not sayin #8 shot is my first choice of a defensive load , but in close it can be devastating..
First concern price , bird shot #8 about 7 $ a box ,bad guy close range , dead . Gimmick load 30 $ a box 😮
When I was shooting skeet, number 8 dove and quail was exactly half the price of number 9 skeet. I used number 8 for skeet.
"gimmick"-so true.
Calling federal flite control a gimmick is pretty stupid.
A 12 gauge turkey load, a full choke or extended full choke will blow a hole through a refrigerator door at "home defense distances". Find an old fridge and make a video
My Great Grand dad loaded his own shells, as many did in those days. He showed me some shells that had all of the pellets in beeswax...they came out like a slug, and dispersed on impact. He said....ot was to keep most of the pellets in one area. Something to ponder..🤔
It’s called a “wax slug” tons of videos on YT about them if you wanna see the effects
Actually hot glue is better than wax…..the shot doesn’t fall apart when they get overheated by external sources.
My dad told me that when I was a kid I used to put wax from a candle in there to keep the shot pattern tight.
My main concern with 00 bucshot is is't penitration of drywall. Hitting the neighbors or someone in another room is a bad thing. It was my understanding that something with ~16 pellets (#2 bird?) will penatrate flash but not go through walls. I bow to your superior experience.
I PREFER LEAD #2'S OR BB FOR HOUSE USE
a turkey load with a half choke on close distance is devastating you know nothing.
As an instructor I feel a shotgun is a poor choice for home defense. I train people to use 7 1/2 shot game loads for inside your house. At 10 to 15 feet, which probably a realistic distance in a house, the shot will spread to 5” or less. It would cause a tremendous wound at that distance. If you miss a wall will probably stop the round. If you use a slug or 00 Buck, the round will penetrate two or three walls so if the bad guy is against an exterior wall you have just put a round through 1 or 2 walls of the house next door. In my opinion this guy needs to understand what shotgun will and will not do.
Did you miss that 2” hole in the middle of the square? I’ve got an idea, try the same setup only shoot at clay blocks, I think you’ll change your mind.
Jr. Samples is alive, thought he passed years ago.
You need to eat a few more potatoes chips....
Yet not a word about patterning with whatever load you intend to use. One needs to sample different brands of the same load in every shotgun you I tend to use. 00 from Federal will pattern differently from 00 Winchester. You won’t know until you spend the ammo, time, targets and sore shoulders carefully patterning for each load. Some barrels love slugs, hitting dead center but put shot loads into another time zone. Sequential serial number barrels may pattern completely differently.
What? You don't think two shots was enough to form this master's thesis? 😂
@@davidhoffman6980 No😁. But it was enough to get thousands of clicks.
Apples to oranges much? How about generic buckshot vs your fancy buckshot?
I find that 04 magnum buckshot works well.. Federal used to make that round back in the day that had 42 pellets per round and out of a 18-3/4 barrel it was devastating inside of 30 feet
I know of two men that are dead. They took three blasts from bird shot at close range, and they are no longer with the living! The thing about double-ought Buck, is it doesn't just stop in the body, it could go through and hit your kids in the next room where the bird shot won't go through sheetrock and kill somebody in the next room.
He needs to have a lot more life experience, shooting shotguns,, if you choose number two or number for shot at 15 feet, it will blow a hole about the size of a small apple through three-quarter inch plywood. It will usually blow a hole through a 2 x 4. yes, you’re always going to have some flyers around the pattern. but the center mass is devastating at 15 or 20 feet. and you don’t have to worry about over penetration going to far threw your house into somebody else’s house. he obviously has never shot number #2 or #4 shot in the distance of a normal room of a house into wood. The only time I would ever consider using buckshot for self-defense. would be outside of the house that has family members inside. for distance over 30 or 40 feet.
It's a sad commentary on the state of the debate that I knew he was going to use #8 before I watched the video.
Anything 12 gauge at bedroom distances will end a fight. Does not matter if it's birdshot or buckshot it will be man down. I assure you the brain won't be able to tell the difference between a face full of birdshot or face full of buckshot
You have.never. been in a.bad.situiain
There was a lot of dirt thrown around by the bird shot, so a lot of the bird shot made it to the backstop in a pretty small pattern.
I have a photo of a dead man with a fist sized hole in his sternum with some #8 or so sized pellets around the edges of that hole that you could look into. If you are a big fella like you then use the 00 Buck. If you are recoil sensitive like grandma or a 12 year old girl that is well practiced with bird shot in a 12 gauge at most home defense distances, bird shot is better. Small people shooting something they are afraid to practice with and don't shoot well is not as effective. That's a fact.
At 5yds. Both will work just fine
"There's no such thing as misses; there's only unintended hits." That is wrong for multiple reasons. First, tactically speaking (and if you're in a fight for your life, that's the kind that counts) if you don't hit the target then you missed. Second, the saying implies that every bullet or pellet that misses the intended target will hit someone else, and that's simple not true. Unless you're firing into a crowd, that saying is just wrong in every meaningful way.
Did you mean to hit the tree behind the guy? If not then its a unintended hit. what you were intending on hitting is the person or animal attacking you or paper targets. If you dont hit what you wanted to its a unintended hit.
@@archaicgaming5950 unless the tree was protected or something then it's not "a hit". Hitting the ground or a tree or the side of the mountain isn't a hit. It's only a hit if it was the intended target or if it incurred severe collateral damage. Otherwise it's disingenuous to characterise all bullet impacts as "hits". Moreover, even if all bullet impacts could be honestly characterized as "hits" it still doesn't support the conclusion that "there are no misses". Thanks.
@@davidhoffman6980 A miss is anything that didn't hit the intended target. it unintentionally hit something else than what you wanted. making it a unintended hit.
@@archaicgaming5950 that's only true if you define all impacts regardless of speed and power as hits - this would include a squib fire where the bullet exited the barrel and immediately fell to the ground with almost zero velocity. However, falling to the ground is not the normal meaning of the word. Also, even if I accepted your definition, you would have still refuted the claim that "there are no misses".
Nothing gets in front of a shotgun no matter the load 7 8 or 9 at that distance your dead
All that talk about avoiding over penetration and flyers, so what happens? The bird shot puts a knock down hole in the target and but then stops in the backing for limited over penetration and flyer protection. The "preferred" round - a knock down hole in the target and 8 buckshot in the next room.
He said it's like shooting 8 9mms at once but he forgot to mention that these are FMJs going about 270 feet per second faster. This video had no discussion, research, or evidence whatsoever about the comparative effectiveness of the two loads. And why did he test them at 5 yards? Is he making a stand at the end of a long hallway shooting into the far end of the living room?
I have a Mossberg turkey gun that shoots 3 and 1/2 magnums with #4 bird shot. It is deadly at 65 feet.
We have whatever brand 00 loaded (at expected range of 12-13 Feet brand really doesn't matter), but If someone has nothing but a few birdshot loads in the house I'd damn sure recommend using the stuff...anything (and that includes birdshot) beats nothing...sure, you'd think finding even a small box of buckshot would be doable, but people Will be people...some folks depend on single action .22 revolvers, or single shot .410s (000 is a great load), that is just what it is...good video...
A good video but... Exactly backwards thinking in regard for the HOME-DEFENSE Scenario.
1st: what the heck is behind those targets?!? In 60+ years I've never seen a birdshot load of any mfr that wouldn't blow a hand-width hole thru common target board materials at 5 yds (15 feet.) I've demonstrated this many many times over the years.
2nd: the birdshot target was clearly would've been "neutralized" by the load that struck him.
3rd: All buckshot loads are as-lethal for anyone behind the intended-target as they are for the target.
Maybe loads for waterfowl or turkeys would be better if you just don't think birdshot is adequate.
This video very nearly falls into the "Oh Brother" category but the camera work was pretty good.
A-Men to the previous comment.
I have seen quite a few videos on home defense, this includes shotgun, rifle and pistol. But what I have not seen anyone discuss is types of homes, how close neighbors are or how close neighbor is. There is a lot to consider and if you choose wrong and accidently shoot a neighbor, you can conceivably end up in prison. While I do not see #8 shot as a viable home defense round, in some cases it would actually be the best round. I would really like to see a video that actually considers the options and discusses what round would be appropriate
in each scenario.
Buckshot can go through the front door and into the neighbor's house across the street, target load won't.
Target load is also far less likely to actually incapacitate an intruder. Anything capable of incapacitating a human being is going to penitrate several layers of building material.
Years ago i picked up a guy that took a low brass #6 at close range. It was an instantaneous DRT.
Paused at 0:01. One look at this guy and the statements under the title, I can tell he's going to convince us all by testing a #8 target load.
I have pets, I will never use a shot gun
dude, you are out of breath just standing there...
the idea of bird shot in a home is that it will not over-penetrate outside of your home
buckshot is more dangerous to others in your home and outside of it
get a fing clue why certain ammo types are used
I like #4 buckshot, but I also have and use # 6,7, and 8 birdshot...at 7 to 10 yards, birdshot, I'm sure, will do just fine.
Just where are you supposed to find this elusive round? I don't remember ever seeing at retailers and every website I've checked either only has 9 pellet loads or, if they supposedly actually carry the 8 pellet variety, it is ALWAYS out of stock.
Hornady uses the same wad in their Black and Critical Defense lines (Versatite wad is the same as Flitecontrol) and has 8 pellet 00B loads. They don't pattern quite as tight as Federal because they don't copper plate their shot like Federal, but it's still very good.
The problem with a shotgun for self defense is that the shot pattern can have unintended consequences.
Talking fast and in a circle, sounding like a small town used car salesman, and having no idea how balistic works, does not make your opinion or advise valid. For your own good, read a book, watch some valid videos, and cut down on mayo. 😂
Yeah honestly he didn't make a damn bit of sense to me.
Yeah he did not make a damn bit of sense to me.
If someone is worried about over penetration, load a shotgun shell with different shot diameters in them, but inside a house, bird shot will injure or kill an intruder.
Totally unbiased lol
00 buck flight control? Is your hallway 80 yards long?
Also, everyone (except paul blart here) knows, after the shot, leave the breach open. If there were another in the mag tube, he just chambered it up when he wasn't ready to fire.
If you actually paid attention you here only one shell be loaded and you would see him retrieving a single shell from his pocket and load it.
I suggest you look at paul Harrell 's home defense shotgun video. Its educational you might learn a thing or two.
Well I guess he was not comparing # 4 turkey loads with the perfect choke
@@MichaelPavlovsky-jo7ms under 30 ft choke doesn’t mean much
Why would he do that? He already said birdshot was a bad option, he's not going to test anything that doesn't support that.
Keep some goose loads handy for variants in cars
I think everyone needs to assume that anyone coming into the house will be wearing armor and possibly ballistic shields.
don't want to get hit with either.....!!!!!!! ever.....!!!!!!
I took a 12 gage 6 shot in the side of the head at about 40 yards. Took me off my feet. Felt like i was hit in the side of the head with a hammer. I still carry shot in my head to this day. DAMM IT HURT. THEN I HAD TO WALK HALF A MILE BACK TO THE TRUCK.LET ME TELL YOU HEAD WOUNDS BLEED. THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO DIE. WOULDN'T THINK SURVIVAL RATE WOULD BE VERY HIGH AT 10 YARDS EVEN WITH 6 OR 4 SHOT
A very deciding factor is how heavily clothed the perp is.
I definitely wouldn't use birdshot for defense. It doesn't hit hard enough and/or penetrate deep enough. It won't stop anyone, especially if they're hopped up on something.
I use #4 shot in lead , 9 pellet buck(lead) and maybe a slug or 2 .................I mix it up !!! I think steel pellets would ricochet against some hard surfaces , a better outside round !!!
I like #2shot 3in 12g
Same here,I have a 870 with a turkey choke
Why do ( EXPERTS ) always down play bird shot but " NEVER " stand in front of " bird shot " ( SCARED ? ) 😮
Question for you guys...i live in a townhouse. I have #4 birdshot in my shotgun. Sufficient?
If its what you have then better than nothing but personally I'd switch to something else. I prefer 00 buck but in your situation #4 buckshot might be a good option. Just make sure you pattern it in your gun at distances relevant to your home
@@mr.browning7.624 did you mean #4 birdshot? I had originally stated that I have #4 birdshot in my shotgun currently. Not buckshot
@matttorres7738 no, #4 buckshot. #4 buck are 24 caliber round balls and you'll typically get 24-27 per shell.
@@mr.browning7.624 overpenetration in a townhouse where i share two walls with other neighbors isn't a concern?
4 shot is a fine choice for a home security shotgun. So are 00B. Both are devastating at cl9ser ranges.
My biggest concern with any shotgun is whether the liberal judge/prosecutor/grand jury decides that your choice of weapon/load was so you could maximize chances of killing an intruder, vs merely stopping them.
People act like we can't Google results of people being hit with birdshot.. 😭
Small shots gonna go right through you.
With shotgun ammo you don't need to worry about over penetration
3 inch mag t shot would do great.
How bout #4 bk or #1 bk?
This is hypothetical because whatever is in the gun when the shooting starts is what you gotta use.
I'd think they would penetrate better than bird shit but not as much as the larger buckshot.
Also how bout hevishot or tss in goose load. Like b or #2 it's very high density hard metal.
Shot through 3/4" p,wood with #4s at 10 yRds
Does your Missouri 590 have a choke of any kind?
Yea i notice no real spread, which is good
I prefer NO.6 shot myself. High brass , full choke.
I'd view that as the minimum. Never going to over-penetrate, but will outperform a target load by plenty.
Are you concerned about over-penetration in a home defense scenario?
Nice short, sweet, to the point demo. All the best! "The JJ" SW Penna.
Even birdshot would be better at close range under 10 yards. It is not to be assumed that a person woken from a sleep in the night who must jump up grab a shotgun then face a moving intruder in panic mode is going to hit the intruder center mass. That tight pattern of the Federal load may miss the target entirely under stress and you may not get another shot off if the intruder is armed.
Dick Chaney shot a gun in the face with bird shot and bot were okay .
BS. BTW, birdshot is not limited to #8, at all. I do agree with your written summary: "There's a LOT of bad advice when it comes to shotguns, especially for home defense."
12 gage, It will make a mess
Is it anything like a twelve gauge.? 🐱
That man has no upper lip.
This video is so bad. The title says "home defense" and he says repeatedly in the video "self defense". Does he not know the difference? Also, how big is his house? Why did he test the ammo at 5 yards? Why not 2-3 yards? Is his house 2,000 yards from his nearest neighbors? If not, why didn't he mention over-penetration? He acted as if there's no reason why someone would prefer birdshot over buckshot. What about people that live in apartments? Why was there no evidence, research, or even discussion about the effectiveness of birdshot as a man-stopper (he fired two rounds and then jumped to conclusions).
Also he used 2 loads that have at least 16 shot sizes between them. Because apparently English Mastiff and Chihuahua are the only available guard dog options.
Don’t tell me there’s one or two stuck in the back. I want to see them…
“Never” 😅
Federal Flight Control is all I stoke in my HD 930 tactical. 8 in the gun, two 8 round cards. One on the receiver, one on the butt stock. I agree with most here that ANYTHING coming out of a Shotgun at close range would be devastating.
I live in the country. Little to no risk of collateral damage. If I lived in the city my choices might be different. I personally want the advantage of devastating effect at close range and the possibility to be effective at longer ranges if needed. I have tested a number of different brands, and loads. The flight control is my choice.
That’s exactly what I load in my shotgun. The longest distance inside my house is 15 1/2 yards. I want the best grouping round I can find. The flyer you see so often with the 9 pellet is why I use the 8 pellet load. Another great video sir.
🤡
🤡
🤡
Is a humanoid the same thing as a robot?
Depends if the robot votes like a humanoid, @@AA-gj3kt 🦏
Dump the shot and just use dimes...😉
Why? Honestly why? What could you possibly home to gain over something like factory loaded buckshot?
My home defense shotgun is always loaded as follows first round...rock salt with some small rocks in it... second round #4 lead shot standard game load... third round 3 inch magnum deer slug... Next clip 3 more slugs !!!
I prefer 8 pellet loads too...9 pellet loads always have a flyer, depends on range of course.
Can't be this ignorant.
Never fire any shot sjze through a rifled barrel. I've fired buckshot through my 870 rifled barrel at 5 yards and didn't get a single pellet on the paper.Evidently the rifling gives it an extremely wide pattern