I've been a follower of Christ and his word for 45 years as a conservative evangelical, believing in the inerrancy of scripture. I believed the bible taught eternal torment in "hell" and had used some of these "proof texts" until I decided, a few years ago, to make sure that it is indeed what the scriptures teach. I had worked through a philosophical justification for eternal torment, as all must do if they are to comfortably believe it. And I was sure I would find it to be plainly biblical. I did not engage in the study because my belief was unpleasant. There was no emotional motivation behind the study (not that I'm claiming a lack of emotion regarding the subject; none can claim that). I trust God completely with whatever he does with unrepentant humanity and rebellious angels. All that John just went through is what I have heard and even, with a conscience afflicting me with uncertainty from a lack of studying the issue, told others. What John just did here has pushed me further from this position. If a man like John MacArthur can so blatantly ignore all the principles of linguistics, exegesis and hermeneutics that have served him so well for so long in order to justify a belief simply because most, but not by any stretch ALL, of the church has believed it, then I am much more comfortable going against such a teaching. I am not saying that I am fully persuaded of destruction of the wicked but it is very difficult to make a reasonable case against it. John has ignored many things. Word meanings change with context and with the type of thing the word is connected with. He is swapping them at will to protect a doctrine. There is also a major difference in meaning between active and passive. A person can be lost but you cannot "lost" them. A person can perish, be ruined, spoiled, broken etc. But the scripture never carries these meanings when used in the active voice of God doing something to them. They are already in this state of ruin. God does not actively ruin them. They perish but God does not perish them. He destroys them. John should be more careful with principles of linguistics like he is so often when exegeting scripture so skillfully when a doctrine does not need protecting. God is very clear that the wages of sin is death. From Genesis to Revelation he points to this fact in many ways; from clear statements connecting sin with death, to the animal sacrifices and ultimately the death of the Son of God for our sin. God gave us life and the penalty for sinning against him is that he requires that life back. This is very easy to show in God's word and it makes perfect sense. God's justice is amazing and perfectly in balance. And our Savior's atoning sacrifice makes perfect sense in the light of God's justice. The apostle John saw, in the vision given him, a lake of fire which IS the second death. What is the first death? Few bother to answer this question to understand what the second death is. Is this a literal lake of fire? How can the 2 riders on horses, called Death and Hades and symbols thereof, be thrown into a literal lake of fire? God tells you plainly what the fire represents. It is a repeated pattern in the book of Revelation: John sees something in his vision and it is explained with the expression "this is" (these are) and what John sees as a lake of fire into which all those are thrown whose names are not in the book of life is plainly called the second death. God is consistent. The wages of sin is death. But this contradicts eternal torment so we come up with our own, unbiblical, definition of death. Death is both an event, the end of life, and a state of being dead, not alive. And now I can hear some saying "but the definition of life is to know God so death is not knowing God." This is forcing John 17:3 into a definition of eternal life rather than it's purpose. The plainest reading is that Christ gives us life "so that we may know" God. But, even if the text intends a definition, it still does not give us permission to re-define death as not knowing God. This is straining logic for a single reason: the scriptures teach plainly the fate of the unrepentant but we need a way around it, a way to re-define the second death so it carries no meaning like the first death (the end of our earthly lives). There is nothing MacArthur said in this message that cannot be shown to be misinterpreting the text of scripture and ignoring plain word meanings in their context but such is required to justify his belief. There is only 1 verse in the entire bible that gives me pause in finally rejecting eternal torment as biblical and that is Rev 20:10 which states that the beast, false prophet and the devil are tormented day and night, forever and ever. That is the only verse that makes such a statement and only of those three beings. And it is in apocalyptic literature and is said about things John saw in his vision. I cannot base a belief on a single verse when it contradicts so much of what God has made plain. Rev 14:10 was always a "go to verse" to prove eternal torment of humans. However there were serious problems with it being an expression of eternal torment in the lake of fire. Study the actual text, in it's context, and include a study of the wrath of God and the expression of smoke ascending forever and it becomes clear. God's wrath is against people for 2 reasons in scripture; their refusal to repent and give him the honor due him as God and their treatment of his people. Study every instance of wrath and ask "what makes God angry?" (according to the bible, not according to your invented theology), "how is God's anger expressed?" (what does it do?) and when is it quenched?" It may surprise you, if you can let go of your made-up beliefs (hint: it is always expressed in time and it ends in time, usually when a person repents and gives honor to God or is destroyed.) Only a few passages could be taken to refer to wrath in eternity but only by forcing it. They make more sense of time, especially tribulation wrath. And that is exactly what Rev 14 is talking about: torment in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. Rev. 15:1 is clear; the 7 bowls contain the wrath of God and they are the FINAL plagues because in them the wrath of God is FINISHED. John should also study what gehenna is. It is not the "lake of fire" or "hell". The Lord is quoting the last verse of Isaiah (66:24) which plainly states that corpses are left on display outside Jerusalem in unquenchable flames with maggots after the Lord slays them at his coming(vs 15-16). I take this to be the millennium. The unquenchable fire is God's fire and does not require an "endless supply of fuel". The Lord's warning was that if they do not repent they are in danger of this destruction and utter disgrace (abhorrence to all flesh- see Dan. 12:2- everlasting contempt is the same word) instead of entering the Kingdom to which they think they have a right. Study the dynamics of an honor/shame society and the Lord's warning will seem a lot more serious. I do believe that the Lord alludes to final judgment using the temporal judgment of gehenna because the soul will not be destroyed when the Lord returns (Mt 10:28) but must be raised for judgment. Mt 25:46- everlasting punishment is not equal to being actively tormented forever. It is "age-like" punishment; punishment having the qualities of the age to come and permantent destruction fits perfectly with this expression. And if you allow eternal life to mean the same thing, as John uses it in his gospel and letters, it becomes something even more wonderful than life that never ends. The focus given by the word "aionion" is not on infinite duration of time but life of a vastly different quality. All that we suffer here, pain, sorrow, absence from the presence of God, countless evils, sin, injustice, hardship, tears, death, hatred, disappointment, fears (and this list can be very long), will all cease to be and will be replaced by the presence of God, joy, peace, unspeakable and genuine love, righteousness and justice (and this list can be even longer than the former). And this is what is meant by age-like life; life of the age to come. See this in the expression "eternal life" and rejoice in what is in store for us who believe! This is a huge study to do right and this message by MacArthur is nothing but careless use of scripture to justify a doctrine that has very little support in God's word. I thank our God and Savior that whatever he does will be perfectly just and right. We will all rejoice in the wisdom and righteousness of it and wonder over the depth of his love to save us. Anything other than what he does choose to do would be less than perfect, which is why he does not leave it up to us. I'm uncertain about the fate of unrepentant humanity but I know it is the absolute best thing because it is God's thing. I can picture myself standing beside John MacArthur as we witness judgment and bowing our hearts together before our God and Savior, praising him for his wisdom, justice and grace. And neither of us will have the impulse to point to the other and say "I told you so."
@@caughtinthevoidfloyd5821 I don't follow. Where did you get the idea that I believe there are errors in the Bible? This is a nonsensical response to what I wrote. The errors are in our doctrines because we place our thinking above the revealed word of God. I have the same high view of scripture as John MacArthur. They are the inerrant word of God as he gave them and we have very reliable texts that give us all we need to know God and his will for us.
@@danceoflifepodcast well Lazarus and rich man take place in hades (ie sheol). This is the temporary holding bay of the dead until judgement. In rev hades is emptied for judgement then death and the place hades are tossed into the lake of fire (representing their destruction). So hades cant be used to talk about the eternal state of the wicked as its clearly temporary. Gehenna is eternal (the lake of fire) but the question is are the people tossed there? Im undecided but i think it very possible they will be "destroyed soul and body" like Jesus threatened. Could be wrong. Im not certain nor do i think i ever will be in this life.
The situation I need for John MacArthur to explain to me is the issue of having everlasting life which only comes through faith in Jesus as John 3:16 outlines (and most of us Christians are familiar with this verse). In order to remain alive forever in hell's fire you must be given everlasting life in order to remain alive to endure this punishment...but everlasting life comes only by faith in Jesus Christ. We do not have an immortal soul, we were not born immortal and it is only when we gain everlasting or eternal life when we come to the full knowledge of who Jesus is and how he gives us eternal life. Paul tells us that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus. Is God going to allow a sinner to have the gift of everlasting or eternal life which is through faith in Jesus only to send him into an eternal punishing forever? That would be nonsense! He must be given some kind of eternal life somewhere in order to sustain this punishing that last forever. But minsters that speak like John MacArthur seem to tell us that we have some kind of an immortality given to us by God that is outside the authority of faith in Jesus to give us eternal life. If we are already born with some kind of immortality of eternal life, then Jesus did not have to come in the flesh to bring us to everlasting life through our faith in him. In order to sustain an everlasting punishing we have to have eternal life to do so and that is against the principles taught in the bible. Read the Book of Jude where Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an "eternal fire." Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today in this eternal fire that literally destroyed them? That is like telling someone a true story that never happened! After these cities were destroyed, the cities were never to be ever again and that is the punishment. It is the effects of the punishment that last forever and not an everlasting punishing! The everlasting or eternal punishment for these cities is a destruction where they will never be again. Sodom and Gomorrah were never rebuilt and never will be like so many other cities liken to the San Francisco earthquake, and yet we rebuilt San Francisco. The book of Jude tells us that these cities "serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." It is an eternal punishment, not an eternal punishing!
As I look over Jude 1:7, 2Pet2:6, and the other verses preached, I conclude the phrases eternal fire etc refer to being no more. This concept fits with every verse I heard J.M speak about. I agree with your review of the Bible. Jer17:27 'unquenchable fire' for the gates of the city. Babylon completed this task 2Chron36:19. The gates are not still burning of course. Those city gates will never be again standing. Sodom and Gomorrah will never be what they once were (even if rebuilt, they would be different). The cities are gone forever. Practically: we became conscious, born to life from a state of nothing. Each of us came to life from non-existence. The absence of life is this eternal punishment; God wants us to have life via the work of Jesus dying for our behalf. There is a hell and burning with the end of their lives being no more. The wicked will forever be no more. Eternal punishment for God is the absence of life after God gave us life when we were born and accountable. The wicked will not be; eternal life is the only life with Jesus as the only way. The other choice is death (just each of us were before life). God is merciful and calls us; but once we die without hope found in Jesus, we enter the second death. This is the absence of life and viewed as a horror to God who lives and gives life.
Amen brother George, and I would like to add, mainstream protestant Christianity uses fear and guilt to keep the sheep coming back. The fear comes from the horrendous doctrine of eternal torture. Our God is not like that. Christ suffering brought the entire world reconciliation. The lost will perish. The greek word for perish means "utter destruction."
I mostly agree, still have much more to look at. my one question is how the verse Joh 17:3. where Jesus seems to define Eternal Life. I have to contemplate more, but does this change how we view the passages described?
John M. is one of the WORST Bible teachers in America today. Sad, very Sad. Conditional Immortality is what Christ and the Apostles taught in the Bible.
Don't forget, "all" will be resurrected on the last day day. In the book of Ezekiel God declares all souls are His. He has authority over all of them. The unregenerate will be separated from Him, they are unfruitful and unrepentant and unusable. They can be put in a "place" of solitude, a place of darkness, or the place of the lake of fire or even where the worm does not die. Nobody would want to be there! The point is they still exist, still have a soul, just not experiencing the full and abundant "life" as Jesus promised to the believers! Rather a solo, sorrowful, uncomfortably isolated existence, weeping, being eaten by worms, gnashing their teeth enraged with anger in the darkest of dark groping forever! This is what eternal death must look like!
The human soul is not immortal, it only has life from God. How could we be alive in hell separated from God? That would technically mean people in hell have "eternal life", which the Bible says is only for believers.
I was thinking that too. Then also, it would mean that God would have to keep regenerating their nerves and body parts over and over and over to keep feeling that kind of pain. Sick n twisted..?? Eternal conscious torment is a horrible doctrine!
@@Butterfly777jc If things like ferocious carnivores can be considered "ungodly" in this fallen world (and something that won't exist in the New Earth), we assume they'll just cease to exist. While I know people can be sinners and other animals cannot: the fact that God couldn't just make the ungodly people die forever, is odd. I'm not even saying there couldn't be a punishment for the wicked, a "2nd death" that might be pretty bad, depending on the person. Why call our first death literal and a "2nd death" an eternal life of "death/separation" with regenerated nerves, etc. Anyway, this is all just my speculation and opinion, including the Bible/God in the first place.
Their reading comprehension skills aren’t that great. They can’t even make it through Genesis 2 and 3 without a profound misunderstanding of what God said. YOU shall surely die. From dust YOU came, to dust YOU shall return. Notice the personal pronouns. Nothing was said to Adam about a pagan immortal soul that floats away after death. Nothing was said to Adam about “Hell.” The word “die” is used 75 times in Genesis, but these people insist that three times it really means “separation” when every other time it means death. The cherub with the flaming sword guarding the Tree of Life proves beyond any question that they are wrong and continue to believe Satan’s first lie. They’re going to be disappointed when God’s day of wrath and fury will be far hotter than their “Hell.” No one will survive it.
@gardennimanongarvin7809 yes, that is one place you can see it. But it's not in a gospel, which JM claims here, and it doesn't say what people claim it does. It's a highly pictorial prophetic book. Rev 20.10 is about The Beast and the False Prophet. If you read it the way the traditional view does then you end up contracting what Jesus says about the body and soul being destroyed in Hell.
Annihilationism and Soul Sleep are not the same thing at all. Annihilationism - The view that all unsaved humans will eventually be annihilated by God, they will not suffer eternally. Soul Sleep - The view that after death people go into a state of "sleep", are not conscious, until the resurrection to eternal life or eternal condemnation.
Isn't soul sleep like, what the Bible teaches? I'm an annihilationist too but I thought it was pretty clear soul sleep was confirmed. Ig Sheol and Hades can be a conscious holding place but not until judgement day is it stated we arise.
@@portallover3478I agree. I believe in Soul sleep long before I was an anililationist. I think it is so clear. However, most evangelical wouldn't agree with us.
John MacArthur should read Malachi 4:1 from either the KJV or NKJV. It says, "the day is coming burning like an oven. And all the proud yes all who do wickedly will be stubble. And on that day will BURN THEM UP says the Lord of hosts. Not a root nor branch will be left of them." That doesn't leave any room for eternal torment. Keep in mind that people who lived at the time of Malachi didn't have the Book of Revelation. All they knew was that evil would be punished and righteousness will be rewarded. I hope this helps.
“and they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.” The Bible says they’ll burn to ashes, and man says they’ll never die and be in endless torment.
That's talking about the Day of the Lord where God will destroy the wicked by the "Brightness of His coming." This is talking about God's Day of the Lord, Wrath destroying the wicked inhabitants of the earth. Peter describes it this way; "The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt in fervent heat, and the earth and all its works will be burned up." AGAIN, this is God's Wrath on the earth and its wicked inhabitants, NOT what happens in hell.
@@ModerateMicthat has absolutely nothing to do with your soul because Hell is eternal damnation and it is forever because the Bible says it and if you're Name is not found in the book of life you will end up in Hell forever and yes it is eternal torture and if I were you I would turn away from your foolish beliefs and stop listening to foolish universalism because you will end up in Hell forever if you don't repent and yes you have a soul and it is eternal so stop being stupid.
Reading various verses, the promise for those who trust in Jesus for salvation is eternal life. Believers are saved from death. There is, of course, hell. I think it's foolish to deny its existence. So unbelievers who die do go to hell for temporary torment. Then after judgment they are sent to the lake of fire and are consumed, terminated.
@@jamesmccluskey391 That is a very poor proof texting example. Immortality and existing for eternity are not the same thing. If they were, eternal life for the believer is not real and God is a liar.
@@Peekaboo-Kitty Thanks for the reply, dear brother/sister. I fully agree with your statement "Hell is the Justice of God."; that's not being disputed. In fact, you may remember Matthew 10:28, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One [God] who can destroy both soul and body in hell." So again, hell is real, and those who die as unbelievers go there for torment until they are finally destroyed. God bless.
@@VictorFelipe82 Hi Felipe. I respectfully, yet strongly, disagree about Hell being temporary punishment. Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV.
Before and after becoming a Christian, I struggled with the idea of eternal torment for unbelievers. This didn’t jive with my concept of a loving and just God. Loving: burning is the worst pain possible as I’ll illustrate in a minute Just: burning forever for sinning for 70 years Last Thanksgiving, my daughter Arika accidentally spilled hot coffee on herself. She ran into the bathroom screaming, and continued doing so for at least half an hour. I asked what I could do to help, but she was inconsolable. It broke my heart. Out of the 31k verses in the Bible, there are only a handful that deal with eternal punishment. And they are on shaky ground IMHO. If this concept was really true, don’t you think it deserves more attention? If this concept was really true, don’t you think it’d be preached every Sunday, in every church
Even more to support your case, the Greek word Aion, which is used to justify eternal torment, actually means age. So, we see a clear eisegesis with at least modern translations, dating back to the Vulgate, that Eternal Hell was actually punishment age during. Not only does it out rule Eternal Punishment, it graciously opens the door to Universal Reconciliation and Annihilation. Personally, I believe in Universal Reconciliation. God Bless.
So is the lake of fire a real lake or is it a symbol for something more? Did Jesus really say to drink his real blood or was it symbolism, is Jesus a real Lamb, is God a real Rock, is eternal fire a real fire , ECT. I think you get the point. If death that can't suffer is thrown in the lake of fire then what's the purpose?🤔 Revelation 20:14 " Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." 1st Corinthians 15:26"The last enemy to be destroyed is death." Destroyed huh case closed
Thank you so much for this. I’m struggling in my faith more than ever before, because of the concept of eternal suffering. As well as the concept of everyone being evil, horrible, incapable of goodness. We have goodness in us as well as evil. There is no way we are all that horrible…
Also, I don’t think anyone truly believes in eternal torment.. if they did, they would be emotionally tortured every single day. How can you even look someone in the face and be okay with them being tortured eternally? If anyone believes that’s true, how can they bring themselves to live day to day? Don’t they realize the severity of eternal torment? What about loving each other? If you love someone who isn’t a Christian, how can you cope with this knowledge? There is no way. If eternal torment was true, there is no way to cope with that knowledge. If we are all wretched and evil and have no goodness at all, how can we be capable of love?
Either view is bad for the unsaved, it is important that we continue growing so we can share the truth with the world, and snatch souls away from Satan!
I’ve collected over 100 scriptures that imply or directly point to annihilationism or conditional immortality. McArthur believes in the immortality of the human soul, which is more Plato rather than scripture. I expected a more studied critique of annihilationism , I was hoping it would challenge my viewpoint.
Hey, I’m very new to this idea I was wondering if we could exchange emails and if you could share the things you’ve found from this. I’m leaning towards annilhilationism and I want to get as much info as I can on it
I believe MacArthur did a decent job briefly refuting the doctrine of annihilation but I also believe he did a terrible job refuting the doctrine of temporary punishment. He's very manipulative and dishonest in this aspect. I'm a Christian universalist and believe that all people will eventually receive salvation but some "as through fire" which is also a reference to the refining qualities within the lake of fire to remove all impurities. This process is very long and is "age-abiding", not forever and ever without end. The Greek, Roman, and Hebrew context is supremely important.
@@Mrm1985100 The English translations make it seem like our souls are completely destroyed but the original Greek does not agree. Check out this video. It is biblical and consistent with scripture. ua-cam.com/video/KSmA00U6gr4/v-deo.html
4 … the SOUL that sinneth, it shall DIE. 5 … he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 18:4-9 (KJV) And 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now PERISHED; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 (KJV) Your love and your hates are what dictate how you react to the events of life, they are who you are, they make you, you. You don’t punish a mortal with an immortal punishment. No where in the bible (KJV) does it say we are created with a eternal soul, how does one inherit something that he already has? All Glory to God. Amen
I just stumbled across this idea of annihilation in hell. Surely brothers and sisters, let us pray and seek God for His wisdom. I'm not saying I believe in annihilation of the soul but someone who does suggested; If we sincerely believe that people even loved ones would be put in a place where they will suffer forever endlessly in pain being set on fire for eternity, and we know that this is what those who aren't know by Christ will be; and we don't feel this urgency to warn everyone day and night nonstop. When it takes only a couple minutes to tell them the Gospel, than we have become extremely callous and cold
LOL it's hilarious. You KNOW you're on the wrong side of the battle, when your proof that souls aren't destroyed in the lake of fire is that destroyed also means, killed, drowned, perished, etc. LOL in ALL cases, it means they're DEAD and THAT'S our point, the wicked will no longer live, they do NOT have eternal life, they are NOT immortal. Eternal life is for the just, it's specifically stated as our reward for following Christ, it even says WHEN we put on immortality, at our resurrection AT His return. We aren't inherently born with it, or why would He need to bestow it on us? Notice he couldn't give us ONE example where destroyed meant eternal life, but the fact that destroyed can mean all different kinds of death, means that when Jesus says God can do all those various meanings of death to a soul, it REALLY means the soul lives for eternity!
The myths of Gehenna and Hades that Christ spoke of (translated "hell") did not originate with him. The OT is clear that in the grave there is no activity. During the intertestamental period, rabbinical writings made Sheol an abode of living souls (1 Enoch; Judith, c. 300-200 BC) due largely to Greek influences. There was fire, cries of pain, darkness, and even a gate to Gehenna. Christ did use these descriptions, but only because he had a Jewish audience where many (though not all) believed in the Greco-Jewish noncanonical afterlife. Paul is more plain: The wages of sin is death, eternal life is a gift of God given only to those who trust in Christ.
@@blue_blue-1 that maybe but that's Not what the Bible says about it because that's the description of what the actual lake of fire will be and No I'm afraid that there is No annihilation at all because the lake of fire of hell is eternal damnation which means you will be in hell forever and you will burn in hell forever if you don't get saved and sanctified through the Lord Jesus Christ YOU WILL END UP IN ETERNAL LAKE OF FIRE THAT BURNS WITH SULFUR AND YOU WILL REMAIN IN HELL FOREVER IF YOU DON'T REPENT AND YOUR SOUL WILL LIVE FOREVER MORE SO THERE'S NO ANNIHILATION.
@@blue_blue-1 Nope there's No annihilation in Hell and HELL is FOREVER RATHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT AND WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR UNBELIEF BECAUSE YOU WILL GO TO HELL IF YOU DON'T REPENT YOU GOT THAT.
I am still learning this subject but this are some of the arguments sinners pay for their sins in the lake of fire and then perish, experience the second death, suffer eternal destruction. Jesus said fear God who can kill both soul and body in hell. Still learning this subject.
Genesis 2:7 states man IS a soul. We do not HAVE a soul. The physical body + the Breath of God combined is a living soul. So if God destroy your soul then you are destroyed completely. As if you never were.
Honestly I was expecting a solid rebuttal but it doesn't seem like he is even aware of the stances of conditional immortality other than the most surface level arguments. There's a reason why all 60+ translations of the Bible on Bible gateway translate apollymi as destroy rather than lost or ruin in Matthew 10:28: it just means destroy. Quench means to extinguish, or forcibly cause a fire to stop burning. Unquenchable fire is a fire which cannot be *put out* , not a fire that will never stop burning. Even if that is what it meant, there's no reason to believe that the wicked, in their mortal and unglorified state, would be able to withstand the destructive power of God, who is a "consuming fire". MacArthur seems to acknowledge that the *trash* he threw into his "always burning" incinerator was destroyed, burned to ash like the weeds in Matthew 13:40, yet believes that the wicked will not be destroyed body and soul in Gehenna. I hope he takes another, more thorough, examination of the scriptures and conditionalist arguments.
The best Bible teachers in the world can't make a solid rebuttal of annihilationism because eternal torment has so little going for it once you dig beneath the surface of only a very few number of verses that superficially seem to support it
0:30 "it's the popular idea because it feels comfortable": or maybe it's because annihilationism is in harmony with our God-given conscience, which we are commanded in Scripture not to sear or ignore.
Annihilationism is not soul sleep. Please people, Don't take a single preachers word for this stuff. There are plenty of resources out there that dig into the biblical support of annihilationism. Despite what Mr McArthur claims, Scripture can speak for itself, and annihilationism is a definite possibility as is ECT. Don't take a single preachers word for it. Lord knows, we don't need a bunch of Christians running around acting like know it alls shaking their finger at other believers who believe differently, just because a single preacher said not to believe it. Don't ever give someone else that power. It should be Christ's alone. Trust His Spirit in you as you tackle issues in scripture. As much as these preachers might love for you to do, don't take their understanding of scripture as the truth. We are all fallible, and get things wrong. (Side note, eternal punishment started to be taught in the early 200 AD. The destruction of the wicked was taught much sooner. It's not a new concept and it doesn't mean bible teachers have gone astray. John is really stretching the truth here. Be careful for that.)
MacArthur conveniently did not mention Isaiah 66:24´s mention of the unquenchable fire. There is says there are just _dead bodies_ there, nobody screaming or writhing in eternal torment. He also conveniently did not mention the annihilation of the devil himself in Ezekiel 28:18,19: I made fire come from within you, and it _consumed_ you. I _reduced you to ashes_ on the ground [...] You have come to a horrible end and *_will be no more.’ ”_*
Yes indeed totally in Isaiah 66 the dead bodies are being consumed totally by a worms and fire. Therefore the bodies are not eternal and since they are dead they're not conscious and since they are not conscious they're not feeling any pain or torment. Therefore this verse when you look a little bit more deeply does not support any aspect of eternal conscious comment whatsoever
As someone who studies Greek. MacArthur knows damn well that the original texts for "Eternal Torment" are actually "Age enduring (eonian) Chastisement" Or at least he should know. So either he's dishonest or is the worst scholar ever.
i could be incorrect but i there are about 14 verses in the NT where jesus talks about hell.HE does not say anything about burnin forever and ever..HE does say people will be "burned up".."destroyed".."perish".. in 2peter3:10 it says "both the earth &the works that are in the earth will be burned up " john3:16 the word "perish"is used.. romans6:23 for the wages of sin is death but the gift of GOD is eternal life. if you burn FOREVER in hell then you also have ETERNAL LIFE do you not... something is not adding up.. how can the saved and the damned have eternal life???? luke13:3 you will perish john3:16 you should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE!!!! how can someone be not there and there at the same time???? matt25:46 eternal punishment is SINGULAR NOT PLURAL.. the punishment is eternal but not the punishing.. matt10:28 this is very direct FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY... THAT IS VERY CLEAR.. matt7:13-14 the word DESTRUCTION.. ALL THIS FROM THE NT. the NT must match up with the OT not the other way round...WHY???? b ecause does it not say....GOD NEVER CHANGES... SO what is said in the OT should be the same in the NT. REMEMBER THIS FROM 1 TIM 6: 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. NOW FROM THE OT...ALM :9-20 the wicked will be no more....FOR the wicked will PERISH. for the enemies of the LORD like the splender of the meadow shall vanish. MALACHI3:6 for i am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT..........THAT IS GOD SPEAKING.. HE cannot say something different in the NT now can HE???? MALACHI 4:1-3 the wicked will be stubble,shall burn them up ,leave them neither nor root or branch, they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet... THIS IS GOD SAYING THIS NOT MAN....THESE ARE GODS WORDS would this not be ANNIHILATION????? psalm145:20 all the wicked will destroy. psalm 21:9 the fire will devour them... OBADIAH 1:15-16 they shall be as if they never were... psalm 92:7 though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers florish THEY WILL BE FOREVER DESTROYED..... THAT IS A POWERFULL STATEMENT... psalm 10:20 but the wicked will perish and the enemines of the LORD shall be as the fat of the lambs, they shall consume into smoke they will consume away.. AGAIN THAT IS PRETTY POWERFULL STATEMENT.. EZEKIEL 28::18-19 THIS IS GOD SPEAKING.......i will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and i will bring thee the ashes upon the earth in sight of all them that behold thee... NT... TIES IN WITH THE OT here 2PETER 2:6 SODOM AND GOMORRHA were set as example, they were destroyed and made into ASHES... is that place still burning today??? ALL THIS POINTS TO " COMPLETE ANNIHILATION " please show me where i am WRONG????? how can the damned also ETERNAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT IS HELL... IF THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ....... GOD LIED AND EVERYONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE...
Brother I would love to show you where you are wrong unfortunately I can't because you are right however John mccarthur was very popular and the traditional view is very entrenched. However what you say is true so I'm going with you
He literally proves the word *apolomy* “destroy to confirm the thoughts of destruction. Plain as day. The dead are dead. Riddle me these two questions… 1) why are the ones asleep in Christ the first to be wakened?? 2) if death and hell are to be thrown in the lake of fire. How can the lake of fire be a place of torment if hell is tossed in this place?
It is to show that even death will cease to exist. How would death be conquered if the second death is continual? Also is it a problem that Rev 20:10 describes the lake of fire as a place of torment for the beast/ false prophet and devil. (makes sense to me)
@@danielbrowniel again I ask: if later in revelation 20 we read that death and Hell (hades) are thrown into this lake of fire. How is it that you can reason that hades or hell is the lake of fire???? It can’t be the place where you are tormented daily can it? Revelation 20:14 (ASV) And death and *Hades were cast into the lake of fire.* This is the second death, even the lake of fire. Moreover. What loving God do you know, would give you 80 years to be the worst kind of sinner and then judge you to eternity in suffering??? Even his own laws of love and justice would say if you sinned for 80 years. The best he can do is 80 years of a torturing sentence. Open your eyes my friend. The truth is here. The dead are dead. And the only hope you have to come back from it is the resurrection that Christ gave opportunity to.
This teaching matches up with what the serpent said in Genesis...surely u won't die ...Bottom Line only the Son Gives life, only those that accept him are granted life after this earthy death...this is why when we die in this life we are considered sleep until the Lord returns while the wicked are considered dead BECAUSE they face the second death in the lake of fire
I'm sorry JM. I agree with pretty much everything you preach except for this. There are numerous scriptures alluding to people being destroyed in hell. But to suggest an all powerful, all loving and all merciful God would punish an individual (even the very worst of such) by torturing them forever in a lake of fire is just plain wrong. We ad humans forgive the worst in our own children and would never unleash such punishment on them, let alone anyone else. We are created in the image of God and yet any human punishment is temporary, with a fixed amount of time. Imagine there is an individual who commits just one sin in their entire life and yet either did not accept Christ or else knew nothing about him. Do you expect anyone to sincerely believe that person deserves the same fate as Hitler? If God has tiers of reward for belivers, it stands to reason the same is true for punishment.
Do we doubt that God is not powerful and wise and loving enough to redirect and correct ALL of His straying children, even if it includes giving them afterlife punishments to purge and purify them for an age or a season? God wants all to be saved, and He will get everything He wants - The Bible says God will not keep His anger forever, but it says His mercy will be forever. It says all flesh will come to Him, the spirit of all will return to God who gave it, Rev 5:13, all created beings will eventually give praise to God in worship, Psalm 66:4, All the earth shall worship You And sing praises to You; They shall sing praises to Your name.” Selah 1 Cor 15:28 God will finally be "All in all", Act 3:21 God will restore everything, everyone. Rev 21 God says "Behold, I make all things new!" Death will be destroyed, which is the last enemy, so there will be no more death, no more second death, no more hell, which was included in the second death, hell will be no more. God desires all to be saved, He has the power to change our hearts, He will do everything He desires according to Isaiah 46:10. We all know God forgives those who repent in this life, why do we think God cannot forgive those who repent in the afterlife, if God desires to forgive them, if it is His will to forgive and save them in the afterlife? Who would or could stop Him if He desires to save us all? Both the Bible and the Koran state that His mercy triumphs over His judgement. Glory to God! Let us love God and show kindness to all to please Him so corrections and harsh punishments are not necessary in our future. All will be revealed, all will be restored by the Almighty! His mercy endures forever, Jesus came to take away the sins of the world, God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Matthew 25:46 -- Conclusion: Christian universalists have no fewer than three legitimate "outs" for the traditionalists' #1 proof-text for eternal conscious torment. Let that sink in. And I haven't even discussed the Greek word for punishment, _kolasis,_ about which Greek expert and popular Bible commentator William Barclay wrote: "The Greek word for punishment here [Matt. 25:46] is _kolasis,_ which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature _kolasis_ is never used of anything but _remedial_ punishment." -- _A Spiritual Autobiography,_ Eerdmans, 1977, pgs. 65-67.
I remember reading about a TV preacher who retired and decided to study some of the doctrines he spent so much time teaching and discovering that he was wrong. It takes a lot of courage to preach the truth. Truth is not popular. The doctrine of eternal torment and people having a soul instead of being a soul was not taught by the early church. In fact one of the popes somewhere around the 5th century got in trouble by calling the doctrine heresy! He did not end up pope for long! There are several doctrines we would do well to restudy! John said that the idea of the person being destroyed was a pleasing doctrine. Well how? Yes it is pleasing in the sense it doesn't make God look worst than Hitler! It also makes sense that justice is done. Eternal hell fire would do no good for the sinner. It would do no good for the saints. It would do no good for anybody. God is a God of love and justice. There is no justice for a 10 year old child who died at 10 as a sinner and burn for 100 million years multiplied by eternity!
no because matter cannot cease to exist. bad analogy. trash still exists even after burned. the fire just turns it to ash and smoke but it still exists
First of all that is trash and second of all does trash have eternal souls? But you as a human being you have a soul and you're so will not go from nonexistence you're so will not be annihilated your soul will live forever and if you don't repent likewise you shall perish and if you go to hell for not repenting you going to find out differently because hell is forever and it is conscious torment Rather you believe it or not
@@Leenightwolf 1st: This was a counter-argument to what John said as he was the one who used that metaphor, so take it up with him lol 2nd: What were our souls doing before we were born? I don't see how our souls MUST live forever if there was a time when they weren't existing. The idea of an eternal soul comes more from Greek philosophy than the Bible from what I understand. I believe that God gives us immortality (through the tree of life in the garden and in the new Jerusalem) rather than the idea that we are eternal ourselves. God bless.
@@jardine2392are you that ignorant to believe that a soul will Not live forever and are you that ignorant to think that way? I mean seriously are you really that ignorant believing that a human spirit won't live forever seriously?
@@Leenightwolf Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (NIV) I think you should at least consider this as a possibility, annihilationism is very present in Scripture and you should read the Bible for what it says and not just what you've always believed
Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. ALSO, Luke 16:22-24 says, "“The time came when the (Godly) beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The (wicked) rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire." Notice how the wicked rich man goes immediately into punishment in flames. He says, and I quote, "I am in agony in this fire." This is NOT a literal description of annihilation and doesn't make ANY sense as some sort of metaphorical, parable about annihilation. People who are annihilated do NOT talk, feel, recognize other people, experience torment or anything else; they are put completely out of existence.
The passage from Revelation 14 that says “forever and ever” is common metaphorical language. Go see Genesis where Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed and the smoke rises “forever and ever”…clearly metaphorical. Peter even says S&G are an example of the eternal fire. What happened there? Everyone died. The rich man and Lazarus isn’t even relevant. First, it’s a parable. Even if it isn’t a parable it doesn’t have anything to do with the subject because it clearly isn’t at final judgement because there are still people on earth. I love John MacArthur, but I disagree with him on this one. He, along with many,doesn’t fully understand it. I prefer the term Conditional Immortality to Annihilationism. God alone has immortality (1Timothy 6:16) and it is His to give out as he sees. Iranaeus wrote about this in Against Heresies - he was clearly a Conditionalist in the second century. CI didn’t say that people just “go out of existence” but instead they die…or perish…or are destroyed…just as the Bible says. Also, this is not the same as soul sleep as JM stated. Many that believe CI is the correct interpretation of final judgment, including me, do not believe in soul sleep. Those two doctrines are distinctly different.
Man I just said almost identical as you. It is very interesting that we have both similar view and feelings from MacArthur. This my original text : Christians are so happy that there is hell. It is visible even here on MacArthur - almost indescribable passion and satisfaction as he so much fulfilled as not Hades and not Sheol is right term but gehenna. Because in is in his basic nature to torture if it is possible. real Christian love is here everywhere. You can see this in so many Christians as they not only inform about hell , but they seems that if there would not be a hell like gehenna then they would not enjoy themselves.
I can prove with just two scriptures that the doctrine of eternel torment is false. In revelation chapter 20, death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. In chapter 21, you read that death is no more. Therefore death was illuminated in the lake of fire and no longer exists.
The Calvinists are so gleeful about eternal torment for those who never had a chance at salvation, do you think they would really ever give up their beloved eternal hell?
@@ModerateMic Then you're not a Calvinist. You're a person who agrees with most of their doctrines. I believe the Bible teaches around 80% of the time that hell is a long time but not eternal (Luke 12:59-60). But around 20% of the time it seems to indicate hell is forever; but if you look at how they inconsistently (and with then-contemporary/Catholic bias) translate aion from the Greek, even most of those 20% fall into the long-but-not-eternal category.
@@ModerateMic Fair enough. I find Calvinism to be opinion based. The points might be true, and they might not be true. There are valid arguments and scriptures for both sides. What I don't like is the fact that it is a religion--it is based on a man's opinion, named after a man, and rigid in its beliefs although they are not issues of salvation ultimately.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die. Ezekiel18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:11-15 Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
I wish many Christians would actually read the paleo Hebrew old testament manuscripts and the koine greek manuscripts because hell is nowhere in the Bible.
@@bigq2696 Exactly. This false doctrine has done so much harm to Christianity and have turned so many people away. I have still yet to hear one good argument for eternal heII.
@@xintimidate Finally it took me a long time to figure out but when I actually started to read the Bible in the language that it is written you find it nowhere in the Bible.
@@bigq2696 Gehenna was considered an actual afterlife in Second Temple Judaism. Sometimes permanant sometimes temporary. The Pharisee schools ofShammai and Hillel believed in Gehenna as an actual place in the afterworld. Hades was another word for sheol and within sheol there were separate levels with a chasm between them. Abraham's Bosom was one area of sheol.
There's NO WAY hell is eternal. God would NEVER allow evil to go on forever. And also we don't have eternal souls so we can't be punished for all eternity! The old testament was pretty clear that death is the price for sin. There's no such thing as eternal punishment. The sinners will be punished fairly for their finite sins and then both them and the devil with his angels will be cast to the lake of fire, which is eternal destruction.
If Hell is real, does that mean that motherly love is more powerful and enduring than God's love? Do you know of normal parents who would endlessly torment most of their kids? Why do we believe our heavenly Father, Who is millions of times more loving than all of us combined, could do such an evil, wicked thing?
that means they are of No more consequence. They exist But not to God. When all those who are judged who didn't accept Jesus they are of nothing to God. He remembers then no more. How terrifying.
@@micahsnodgrass9883 No that doesnt. If someone gets the death penalty is your response " that means they are of No more consequence" um no. You dont think burning a second death and not getting into heaven is a strong enough consequence? How sadistic do you have to be to believe in an eternal heII? The bible doesnt teach is. Matter of fact the Greek/Hebrew manuscripts dont even have the word "heII". Stop preaching a false gospel and scaring people away from Christ. How can you claim "heII" is separation from God but then have the same belief God is omnipresent??? That makes 0 sense. The wicked will be judged for their sins based off what they have done and be thrown into the lake of fire then cease to exist after their punishment bc God is a merciful just God. Not the sadistic monster you paint him out to be. Your belief of heII comes straight from Satans mouth. You are calling God a liar if you think all souls are immortal. God told Adam you shall surely die. Satan said you shall not surely die. You make God out to be a liar. Study annihilationism its what the bible teaches. Not your man made doctrine
Don’t you just love calvinists like MacArthur? They believe that only those chosen by God receive salvation, yet they also believe that God will send someone to eternal suffering just because they weren’t lucky enough to be chosen. God’s character is unchanging and one of his main attributes is that he is a just God. Does that sound just to you?
Let's say the fate of sinners is to have everlasting torture in hell. Okay. Jesus took the punishment for our sins, yet he's not in everlasting torture in hell. So if everlasting torture is the fate of sinners, then Jesus did not take that same punishment. I don't know. I'm still trying to understand this one.
To add to that, Jesus suffered and died so we don't have to suffer and die for sin, if hell is forever torture that would meen Jesus didn't even suffer anything at all compared to what the wicked will
Totally valid line of thinking which is why Annihilationism fits the model much better. Jesus died for our sins because the penalty for sin is death and that was the punishment promise to Adam and all human being since have died Christ has conquered death. I don't believe he conquered eternal torment
So we have to take "eternal punishment" as lasting forever, because it correlates to "eternal life" in the final judgment. But when Jesus says "Destroy both body and soul in hell", even though destroy can mean "kill", and even though it is correlated with people literally killing the body, we are supposed to interpret it as "ruin". Because it was used that way somewhere else in reference in inanimate objects (wineskins). What?!
Pastors need to do a deep dive on how all these English bibles came to be. Early believers did not beleive all this hell and eternal punishment garbage, nor did the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts have hell and damnation in them, these are pagan beliefs written and put in later. Look at young’s literal translation.
Specifically, in the dozen or so verses where hell, the lake of fire or destruction is said to be "eternal," "everlasting" or "forever," it's based on the Greek word _aionios._ If you google "aionios" you'll find many opinions about its meaning. There are excellent reasons to believe it should be translated "of an age." The adjective _aionios_ is derived from the noun _aion,_ which means "eon" or "age." Eons and ages are long but *finite* periods of time. The very literal Rotherham's Emphasized Bible version translates _aionios_ as "age-abiding." Young's Literal Translation says "age-during," which means during an age. Also, the fact that "forever and ever" is nonsensical (how can anything be added to forever?) should be seen as a red flag -- not about biblical authority but about Bible translations from the Greek.
In recent years annihilationism has become more and more popular because people are realising that it is more biblical. Old traditions Die Hard and nothing dies harder and the eternal torment nonsense.
It's always been eternal torment, acts17:21 people like to hear new things & 2timothy4:3 itchy ears, annihilation is a new thing, Jesus said the fire isn't put out & the worm doesn't die, the first death is fleshly, the 2nd one is spiritual, forever.
@@Gman-j3e In fact it has NOT always been eternal torment. Innumerable Christians have held to annihilationism in the past. Jesus also said that hell was RESERVED for the devil and his like. Tough to fit a bunch of people into a place that is reserved for others. The worm not dying is a reference to Is. 66 and is conspicuously mistranslated by thought for thought translations. If the 2nd death is truly a death than it would result in annihilation. Makes sense in light of 1 Tim. 6 which says that God alone is immortal.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 I agree that eternal torment is nonsense. It is one of the most bizzarre things I can think of personally. Jesus said that hell was literally reserved for the devil and his like.
A game-changing quote: "Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used _aidon_ to denote endless, and always used _aionion_ to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of _Philo_ says he never used _aionion_ for interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv: 46, precisely as Christ used it. *'It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment **_(kolasis aionios)_** from such as are more powerful.'* Here we have the exact terms employed by our Lord, to show that _aionion_ did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ." -- J. W. Hanson, _Bible Threatenings Explained,_ 1888, pgs. 123-124 Philo (c. 20 BC - c. 50 AD) was a prominent Jewish philosopher who lived in nearby Alexandria, Egypt.
MacArthur has misinterpreted every single verse he has put forward to defend Eternal Torment. Eternal torment is a doctrine of the Devil. God has shown Himself to both a Merciful, and a just God. Mercy was shown at the cross. His just nature precludes any conception of unendurable, unending agony for the sins committed in a man's short lifespan... no matter the sin. The punishment will fit the sin. It will be fierce enough to do so, perhaps the main part of it, knowing what might have been gained that will never be.
Matthew 25:46 -- "The [goats] will go away into eternal _(aionion)_ punishment, but the [sheep] into eternal _(aionion)_ life." The traditional argument: "Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionion)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionion)_ punishment must also be endless." Christian universalist response -- Possibility #2: An adjective *can* means two different things in the same sentence (e.g. *_aionion_** in Rom. **16:25**-26,* Habakkuk 3:6, "A huge man is climbing a huge mountain."): "Jesus is referring to two completely different things -- life and punishment. Eternal life is divine life that comes from God. That divine life never ends. Eternal punishment is divine punishment from His hand. The duration of that divine punishment may certainly be temporary, lasting only until it accomplishes its purpose." -- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017, pg. 140 "Augustine raised the argument that since _aionios_ in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of _aionios_ is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when _aionios_ referred to the duration of Jonah's entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, _aionios_ referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon's temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether." -- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 26 In other words, _aionion_ doesn't make God eternal, but God makes _aionion_ eternal.
Also that word for torment comes from the greek word 'basanos' Basanos means to be tested for purity. Another example of the mistranslation of the scriptures in order to skew the truth.
Lol you guys are too funny. Scripture is plain that hell is eternal and the very notion that it isn't was born from heresy, folks that didn't feel it would be "fair" for God to punish rebel sinners eternally. In other words desiring to be God and do His job. Hell is eternal as the church has always understood. This is why all the great exegetes of the Bible have so taught.
Lol you guys are too funny. Scripture is plain that hell is eternal and the very notion that it isn't was born from heresy, folks that didn't feel it would be "fair" for God to punish rebel sinners eternally. In other words desiring to be God and do His job. Hell is eternal as the church has always understood. This is why all the great exegetes of the Bible have so taught.
@@davidlopez-flores1147 if I stab someone to death and from the moment of the attack until they die 7 minutes pass,should I only go to prison for 7 minutes? According to annihilationism that is the only "fair" thing to do.
I respect John MacArthur but these are the worst arguments against conditional immortality (the term I prefer over annihilationism and soul sleep because it is more accurate) I've ever heard. He seems to not understand it at all. I've never heard ANYONE use the arguments he claims they use. First and foremost, the place to begin is the concept of the immortal, immaterial soul which leaves the body at death. That idea is completely foreign to both the Old and New Testaments. If we don't possess a soul (and we don't according to the Bible), then you don't have to put it anywhere when you die. He also doesn't seem to understand that the lost are still resurrected and judged before being cast into the Lake of Fire. Tsk, tsk, Mr. MacArthur. Try doing some actual research before speaking authoritatively on this subject.
@@theoddestautist exactly. According to Genesis 2:7 we are a living soul. That’s the standard definition of a soul: a living being. But the word “soul” can also have different meanings depending on its context. It can also mean life itself. For example when Jesus speaks about “forfeiting their soul” he’s not referring to some immortal soul inside your body you hand away, he’s referring to selling your *life* away. So soul can mean different things according to its context, but the standard definition of soul according to scripture is a living being. I am a soul. We are a soul.
Matthew 25:46 -- "The [goats] will go away into eternal _(aionion)_ punishment, but the [sheep] into eternal _(aionion)_ life." The traditional argument: "Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionion)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionion)_ punishment must also be endless." Christian universalist response -- Possibility #1: (1) "Eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek word _aionion._ _Aionion_ almost always means "eonion" or "of an eon" or "of an age," just like it sounds. So in this particular verse, Jesus was only promising to the "sheep" life in the age to come -- not eternal life. This is not the first understatement in the Bible. For example, the phrase "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" understates the number of people God is God of.
(2) This does not threaten eternal life for believers, because many other verses, which don't use _aionion,_ do promise eternal life: (a) verses that include "immortality," "imperishable," "unfading" or "incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25, 15:42, 51-55, 2 Tim. 1:10, 1 Pet. 1:3-4,23, 5:4) (b) Isa. 25:8, Hos. 13:14, Luke 20:36, John 6:37, Rom. 8:19-21, 38-39, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14, 21:4. (3) In Matt. 25:46, the _aionion_ punishment for the "goats" is also temporary, per point (1). (4) Therefore, the traditional argument is invalid. Life is eternal for the righteous "sheep" (Points 2a & 2b), while the Matt. 25:46 punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is temporary (Point 3).
It absolutely does. It's just that clowns like him, come up with such asinine NEW meanings of words, and all kinds of mental gymnastics to get the Bible to say what it DOESN'T say, that no wonder people get confused! From the Beginning to end, the Bible is clear, the wicked are destroyed, perished, consumed, burned-up, no more, vanish, cease to exist, etc. To God ALONE belongs immortality, WE don't put it on until the Resurrection AT Christ's return, the wicked of course never put it on, which is why they are harmed by the Second Death. Note it's ALWAYS contrasted as Eternal Life or Death(perished, destroyed, etc) Never EVER is it even hinted that the wicked are immortal or will become immortal. Also, NOBODY is walking around up in heaven or suffering in the lake of fire now. The Bible is clear OVER AND OVER, we are raised up on the last day. The dead know nothing, their thoughts perish with them, love and hate are no more, etc. But after the millennial reign, those weren't raised up in the First resurrection face judgment, and the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, which IS the second death. The first death is temporary for both the righteous and wicked, as we ALL eventually are raised up, but the second death is eternal, there is no resurrection from that.
@@Sting79 If that argument of teaching for centuries was a valid one, then we must conclude that paganism is true...? Sting 79, trust me, it is not my intention to argue with you here, i used to think and believe exactly the same as you for more than 40 years of my life, but i discovered based on the Bible that i was wrong. God doesn't need to be cruel to be just. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment, it is all a HUGE misunderstanding.
@@augustosantiago6769 You sure? Cause I still hear and see a malevolent lying devil who PRIDES himself on torture and literally prefers it. You can't convince me otherwise. Hell, I can quote him over and over and over. He is a malevolent, sadistic psychopath who COMPLETELY disregards his every creation, beyond what is necessary to make it suffer needlessly, while scapegoating any responsibility for said suffering. I'm the only one who reads this for what it is. The rest of you seem to lack the capacity.
Christ paid for all the sins of humans for six hours. He suffered torment temporarily, then died. That's what I believe will happen to the unsaved. They will be tormented temporarily, then die, never to be alive again.
I'm confused is he arguing in favor of annihilationism here cuz it sounds like every example of the word destroyed that he mentioned means that thing that got destroyed is completely gone or dead
So is God going to make the lost eat from the Tree of Life before He tortures them in “Hell” forever? This guy doesn’t even believe in the resurrection from the dead. How can a person be resurrected from the dead if they’re not dead? If a person has an immortal “soul” (which is a pagan belief) then why the need for a resurrection?
So a loving father will burn his disobedient child for 100 trillion years. I wouldn't even do that to Hitler. No one asked to be born. What perverted Justice would be an eternal punishment for a life barely longer than the blink of God's eye ? When I punished my children with a timeout for a few hours, I longed to see them again. Knowing full well it was for their own good. God said, " From dust you came, and from dust you will return." It was Satan who said, " You shall not surely die." The wages of sin is death. Not an eternal burning conscious torment. Only Satan could conceive such a horrendous punishment.
You're only a child of God if you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior,"to as many as believed gave He power to become sons of God" , otherwise you're a creation of God & it has always been eternal torment, annihilation is a new thing, but even now Satan is trying to change you from being a creation of God with the mark of the beast(neuralink & other brain chips), prophecied in Isaiah 24 "they have broken the eternal covenant with God" & in more detail in the book of revelation chapters 13 & 14, God's word is true,if you haven't yet, accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior & let Him keep,guide & save you in these last days otherwise you won't make it.
@@Gman-j3eGod tells us to love our enemies though. If God was the most vengeful being in the universe why would he want us to have characters the opposite of his?
@@gareth2736 sin, God doesn't let the guilty go unpunished,if you die in your sin, you will face the great white throne judgement,if you accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior & keep His commandments,there is no condemnnation for you, God then applies Jesus' righteousness to you.
@@Gman-j3e you repeated some Christian doctrine without engaging with my question. Why does God want us to love our enemies rather than torturing them if we are meant to reflect his character?
@@gareth2736 Jesus came & did that "forgive them Father,they know not what they do" ,christians aswell, warning of God's wrath to come, once you are created in the image of God, you are an eternal soul, God loves you, He gives you light, food, family...etc many good things even though you refuse the no.1 gift of love, salvation through Jesus Christ, what must God do after your fleshly death? Must He let you come live in eternity with Him with your sinful God hatefulness? even though many times He has called you to free life in Jesus Christ & you willfully reject & refuse Him, God shows He loves His enemies daily,one day that love will be withdrawn, He is holy, righteous & just, stop hardening your heart.
Jesus gave a vivid description of the fate of the unsaved. He said, there will be "...weeping and gnashing of teeth" To weep is to mourn or be in a long state of sadness. The gnashing of teeth means to grind one's teeth in anger or regret. The tormented state of the unsaved that Jesus seems to describe is the result of unbelievers suffering the physical pain...or fire of Hell and their regretful decision of rejecting God's love by the sacrificial blood of Christ.
The lake of fire idea came from the apocryphal writings which were added by Hellenized Jews as the Septuagint was being written. They adapted the Greek version of Hades, where disembodied souls were deposited, or even resurrected bodies of the good and evil were deposited. They called their version of Hades " Abraham's Bosom." The Old Testament never mentions any lake of fire. Christ spoke of the lake of fire because he was speaking to Hellenized Jews who often spoke Greek (like the apostles) and had familiarity with such metaphors.
In the first 13 seconds he says annihilationism "is a trendy thing." Apparently he does not believe his Bible: ■ “For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” (Psalm 37:10) ■ “When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever” (Psalms 92:7) ■ “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation” (Proverbs 10:25). ■ “Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?” (Job 20:4-7).
wages of sin is death not eternal torment which sounds like life to me. Very bad life but it's still life. And the LordGod commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Yes Pastor MacArthur die and not burn in hell forever. I bet God would be very clear if that was the case... Eternal torment is medieval doctrine but kept alive very well
Annihilationism doesn't mean there is no torment or suffering. In many of the parables, some people get punished more than others and these parables signify what happens to you on the judgement day. If everyone were just annihilated as punishment with no torment at all, then one person couldn't be punished worse than the other as shown in the parables. It also states that certain cities will have it worse on judgement day than others. How can this be if they just cease to exist without punishment in between?
I used to be a believer in eternal, conscious torment but after looking at the Bible all the way through I an no longer convinced. Eternal conscious torment was first found in the Apocrypha, between the NT and OT periods. The Greeks believed in an eternal soul that goes to Hades. The Hellenized Jews adopted that belief and replaced the Greek Charon with Abraham. But Adam was not created an eternal being in any way. Adam didnt have a separable soul either. He was not designed to live forever as he had to eat of the tree of life to live. Mac is wrong.
First and Foremost, in revelations we see something called “The Second Death” Revelation 21:8 What are the wages of sin? Death, 2 points, 1. if God only meant fleshly death, why are there 2 deaths? 2. If God only meant fleshly deaths are the wages of sin, why do us, born again, redeemed and saved believers die? Our punishment has been taken. So clearly the second death is the true punishment of sin. How is suffering for eternity a death? I believe like our Justice system, hell is a prison, a place of darkness separated from God where weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the “undying worm” is your passion/desire, day and night (a long time but not eternity) without rest you are in spiritual turmoil. the lake of fire is the death sentence. Secondly God said himself Matthew 10:28 “fear not man who can destroy the body. But God who can destroy both the body and soul in hell” But where is hell going in the end? Revelation 20:14 “then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death” We see mention of the lake of fire being the second death again, and why is hell and death being thrown there? Is it so they can suffer for eternity? No, it’s to destroy hell and death for good, so then the lake of fire is a fire that destroys? Are we to think our souls are so powerful they can withstand an eternal fire that destroys hell and death itself? Or maybe it’s conditional, it chooses to destroy hell but not the unsaved? The lake of fire is clearly a destructive force so there’s no reason to suspect it won’t also destroy satan and his followers when God can destroy both the soul and body as he SAID God is fully capable of destroying people. It is not “unjust” it is not “unlike his character” in fact very much the opposite for both
Matthew 25:46 -- "The [goats] will go away into eternal _(aionion)_ punishment, but the [sheep] into eternal _(aionion)_ life." The traditional argument: "Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionion)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionion)_ punishment must also be endless." Christian universalist response -- Possibility #3: Jesus meant in Matt. 25:46 what he meant in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." There, "eternal" _(aionion)_ means "spiritual" or "divine," and has no specified time frame.
Actually, the unjust will go to the lake of fire where they will be punished _and purified:_ FIRE PURIFIES The Greek word for fire is _pur._ --------------- *BRIMSTONE (SULFUR) ALSO PURIFIES* Pre-Roman civilizations used sulfur as a medicine, a fumigant, a bleaching agent and in incense. The ancient Greeks used sulfur to fumigate, to purify, to cleanse and consecrate to the deity. For example, in Homer's _Iliad,_ in Book 16, a goblet is purified with sulfur. For example, in Homer's _Odyssey,_ in Book 22, we find: "Bring me sulfur, which cleanses all pollution, and fetch fire also that I may burn it, and purify the cloisters." The Romans used sulfur as an insecticide, and to purify a sick room to cleanse its air of evil. For millennia, gold has been refined with fire _and sulfur,_ because of its ideal chemical properties. ( ua-cam.com/video/4lHWv4zM7iA/v-deo.html ) --------------- The Old Testament has many refining metaphors: Deut. 4:20, 1 Kings 8:51, Psalms 12:6, 66:10, Prov. 17:3, 25:4, 27:21, Isa. 1:22-27, 48:10, Jer. 9:7, Zech. 13:9, *Mal. 3:2-3.* They should inform how we think about fire in the New Testament. Jesus even offered to sell gold refined by fire (Rev. 3:18). This shows that he too was thinking about refining on the day the book of Revelation, including its lake of fire, was born. --------------- "But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For *he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.* He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and *he will purify* the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord." --Malachi 3:2-3 --------------- *Connecting the Dots: The metaphorical lake of fire will punish **_and refine (purify)_** the unrighteous. All will eventually be saved. God is love (1 John 4:8,16). Jesus is the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14, John 4:42). His mission was to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), and he never fails.*
*"...could annihilation still happen?"* Annihilation is what the Bible teaches . . . plainly and often . . . guitarbug. ✴ _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish_ [ "apollumi" - be utterly destroyed ] _but have everlasting life._ (John 3: 16; KJV)
I don't believe he was...Ultimate Reconciliation is the most hardest to accept because it shows nobody escapes judgement and God's grace extends farther than we know...which is hard for many of us who have a well developed Jonah muscle
If you allow scripture to interpret scripture, and what I mean by that is you take the vision or the dream in its symbolic form and then you find in scripture where that symbolic form is defined then you are interpreting God's words by God's word. I know few people who are doing this. I have found God’s definition for what he meant when he shows in a vision a beast thrown into fire. It's all in Daniel 7. In verse 11 we see the Vision of the beast thrown into the fire. In verse 26 we are given the interpretation: that the empire which was represented by the beast loses its dominion and power and ceases to exist on the earth. Daniel saw the same exact symbolic imagery as John in the revelation where we have a 7 headed beast introduced in chapter 13 and then at the end of chapter 19 that beast is thrown into the fire. The seven-headed beast was the Roman Empire. Does the Roman Empire still exist on the earth or has it ceased to exist in all its form?
Psalm 104:35 King James Version 35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord. Matthew 10:28 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Ezekiel 18:20 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. Romans 6:23 King James Version 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. John 3:16 New International Version 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Revelation 20:14 King James Version 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Ezekiel 28:17-19 18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. 19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more. Revelation 21:4 King James Version 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
I came here to hear a refutation of conditional immortality, and Jonny Mac’s attempt was a poor one. He said annihilationism “feels fair to the people who make a case for it.” This is simply false. The people I’ve watched on several podcasts make the case from the scriptures and not based on feelings.
Interesting how Jesus uses references to the garbage disposal of His time. This may be offensive to some , but the unsaved are basically garbage to Him. I understand.
I Am Now A Hopeful Christian Universalist, and We Hope for the Salvation of All even to those who are in hell for Universal Salvation, Let Us Pray to our Lord Jesus Christ by His Grace and Mercy For the Salvation of All Mankind By Jesus Christ Grace and Mercy for Salvation even to those who are in torment of fire, Even to those who Are Now in Torment of lake of Fire, God's Will is that All Shall Be Saved(1Timothy2:4) ( 2 peter3:9), He is Our Creator and He Knows everything from the Beginning He Knows Even if the World has Not yet made and God is our Hope . God is Love and Gehenna and The Lake of Fire is REAL for Chastening and Purification to Remove The Sin of Each Person, GOD IS LOVE and MERCIFUL GOD IS LOVE HE DOES NOT TORTURE AND PUNISH HIS CREATION IN HELL FOR ETERNITY CATHOLIC CULT DOCTRINE AND REFORMERS PROESTANTS ARE THE ONES WHO DOCTRINATED AND TEACHES ETERNAL TORMENT LITERALY, AND ALSO LET US PRAY FOR THE SALVATION TO ALL MANKIND EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW IN TORMENT OF LAKE FIRE THE PURIFICATION AND CLEANSING FIRE AND LET US PRAY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL PEOPLE AND THOSE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE BY JESUS MERCY AND GRACE . BY GOD'S MERCY AND GRACE AMEN. GODBLESS
Ironic that there are more Bible verses that point to conditional immortality than there is determininism. But he has no problem believing that. The difference? Conditional immorality doesnt change the gospel, but Calvinism does. Making the world Jesus died for the "elect" only.
I have never heard a single bible scholar (until now) teach that annihilationism is sometimes referred to as "soul sleep". According to all I've read on the topic, soul sleep is the belief that when a person dies, their soul "sleeps: and is not conscious until the resurrection, when it will awaken. The doctrine of soul sleep comes from the bible's use of the euphemism "sleep" to refer to death. But the bible clearly teaches that for a follower of Christ, to be absent from the body in death, is to be present with the Lord, not asleep.
Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate.
He also believes Christians are elected and therefore all who aren’t chosen - so have no ability whatsoever to repent will suffer for eternity. Gosh!! This isn’t the God I love & worship
Unbelievers can't be tormented forever because unbelievers aren't going to live forever. ✴ _I am the living bread that came down from heaven. _*_IF . . . IF . . . IF_*_ anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever._ (John 6: 51, ESV)
More second chances: THE DEAD HEAR THE GOSPEL AND LIVE -- "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may *live in the spirit* according to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:6). (Also see Psalm 68:18, Zech. 9:11-12, Matt. 12:29, Eph. 4:8-10.) THE FORGIVABLE SINS -- "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not ... either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:31-32). The wording strongly suggests that all sins except one, including blasphemies against Christ, will be forgiven in the next age if they're not forgiven in this age. (For the unforgivable sin -- Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit -- compare Matt. 12:32 with Eph. 2:7.) UNTIL -- "I tell you the truth, you will not get out *until* you have paid the last penny." (Matt. 5:26). WHO IS THIRSTY? -- "The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come'. And let the one who hears say, 'Come'. And let the one who is *thirsty* come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev. 22:17) The setting of Rev. 22:17 is the Rev. 21-22 new heaven and new earth, since the "water of life" is also mentioned in Rev. 21:6 & 22:1, and it's the Rev. 21-22 "Bride" who is speaking -- not the "church" or the "lampstands." But who are the thirsty ones? Who else is there? The thirsty ones must be those in the Lake of Fire, located outside the city gates (Rev. 22:14-15), which never close (Rev. 21:25). SODOM RESTORED -- "I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them ... And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before" (Ezek. 16:53,55). In verses 47-55, the pronouns "their" and "they" identify the restored individuals as being those who were destroyed in Gen. 19 because of their abominations (Ezek. 16:50) and for other reasons (Ezek. 16:49). (Sorry to have to discuss peoples' pronouns ... lol ... but _these_ pronouns are critical to _this_ argument.) The restored people of Sodom will first need to be punished and purified in God's symbolic and refining Lake of Fire. ( ua-cam.com/video/4lHWv4zM7iA/v-deo.html ) DRY BONES LIVE -- "Then he said to me, `Son of man, these bones are the *whole* house of Israel. Behold they say, "Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off."' Therefore prophesy, and say to them, `Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves, O my people... And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, O my people. And I will put my spirit within you, and you shall live'" (Ezek. 37:11-14a). BLINDINGS -- God has either directly caused, or permitted, various groups of people to be blinded to the truth (e.g. Mark 4:10-12, Rom. 11:25, 2 Cor. 4:3-4). This would seem to require an unblinded opportunity in the afterlife. DEAFENING SILENCE -- The first 2/3 of the Bible is completely silent about Hell, and the last 1/3 uses the ambiguous-at-best Greek word _aion_ and its derivatives to describe Hell's duration. This makes no sense if (a) God is love, (b) eternal torment is true & (c) there are no second chances. There would have been clear and dire warnings on almost every page. For instance, why did Noah infinitely understate the penalty when he warned his neighbors only of a worldwide flood and not of irreversible eternal conscious torment? EVENTUAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION EXPLICITLY TAUGHT -- See John 12:32, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2,17c, Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3. These verses, and many others like them, imply second chances for salvation after death.
What a horribly weak argument this man makes. A straw man argument, really. Clearly the bible teaches hell is horrible and will go on for very long times for many, but it is not eternal consciousness torment--however joyfully these Calvinists are married to painting God as cruel. No, sinners we're not permitted to eat from the Tree of Life and therefore are not eternal souls. Augustine brought that in from Greek philosophy when he converted to Roman Catholicism. Clearly this topic is beyond this man's ability.
LOL so his argument that God DESTROYING both body and soul in hell, is to use the fact that Destroy also means KILL or Perish, or drowning, so therefore having your soul DESTROYED means you live for eternity?! Funny, how he can't come up with a scripture where destroyed means eternal life, but just in a bad place. He's normally a very intelligent man, that I deeply respect, but when you see the illogical hoops these people jump through defend such a satanic doctrine that isn't ONCE mentioned in the Bible is stunning! ALL throughout the scripture, the fate of the wicked is described as destroyed, perished, consumed, burned up, no more, vanished even CEASE TO EXIST, and of course death. Not ONCE is immortality ascribed to the wicked. The comparison is ALWAYS eternal life OR death(perish, destroyed etc). The Bible is clear, to Christ ALONE belongs immortality (1 Tim 6:16) and He gives that to us at the resurrection at His return. (1 Cor 15:52-54) The Lake of Fire IS the second death. Death and Hades are ALSO thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. And the fact that the fire is eternal has nothing to do with how long it would take to consume anything; anymore than the fact that the sun has 4 BILLION years left to burn, means it would take it 4 BILLION years to consume a person.
I agree If Hell is real, why does the human spirit writhe under the horror of wars and prison camps, torture chambers and dictators? How can we judge these things as wrong, if Hell is real? After all, Hell far eclipses these earthly torments which came from the most sinful and beastly part of humanity. We say God is grieved by man's violence and disregard for life, and yet believe that He Himself enforces the same principles for all eternity!
Malachi 4:1 tells us what will happen to the unbeliever. AND I QUOTE - "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." If you believe that that unsaved live somewhere forever - you must believe that our souls are immortal. BUT THEY ARE NOT IMMORTAL. And only the souls of the saved ever become immortal.
Read the Book of Jude where Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed by an "eternal fire." Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today in this eternal fire that literally destroyed them? That is like telling someone a true story that never happened! After these cities were destroyed, the cities were never to be ever again and that is true. The everlasting or eternal punishment for these cities is a destruction where they will never be again. Sodom and Gomorrah were never rebuilt and never will be like so many other cities liken to the San Francisco earthquake, and yet we rebuilt San Francisco. The book of Jude tells us that these cities "serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." It is an eternal punishment, not an eternal punishing.....These cities are non existent and never will be again!
Isaiah says that the smoke of Edom will go up forever. Edom was east of Israel. It never burned and it is still not burning. Eternal fire and smoke symbolizes extermination. God destroyed Edom.
The lake of fire and hell are two different places. Remember, Hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire and it's called the second death. So then, eternal life is only give to God's elect, those who He saved by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ. So, how does this make sense? I'm genuinely wanting to know, I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm an annihilationist who was recently confronted with revelation 14 and I'm genuinely seeking the truth.
Hell and death will be consumed and become no more. Their existence will never return. Similar to a building burnt to ash. That building can never be returned. We could build another, but it would be a different building. Think of yourself before being born and conscious. God wants us to live forever.
@@yourwifesboyfriend5785 Revelation is full of symbolic imagery. Forever and ever is a reference from Old Testament. It means for a long time. Also the beast devil and prophet will be there. Not people.
I, a nobody, can refute each of the arguments layed out in this video by John, a theologian, to the satisfaction of any Bible believing rational human adult.
I've been a follower of Christ and his word for 45 years as a conservative evangelical, believing in the inerrancy of scripture. I believed the bible taught eternal torment in "hell" and had used some of these "proof texts" until I decided, a few years ago, to make sure that it is indeed what the scriptures teach. I had worked through a philosophical justification for eternal torment, as all must do if they are to comfortably believe it. And I was sure I would find it to be plainly biblical. I did not engage in the study because my belief was unpleasant. There was no emotional motivation behind the study (not that I'm claiming a lack of emotion regarding the subject; none can claim that). I trust God completely with whatever he does with unrepentant humanity and rebellious angels. All that John just went through is what I have heard and even, with a conscience afflicting me with uncertainty from a lack of studying the issue, told others. What John just did here has pushed me further from this position. If a man like John MacArthur can so blatantly ignore all the principles of linguistics, exegesis and hermeneutics that have served him so well for so long in order to justify a belief simply because most, but not by any stretch ALL, of the church has believed it, then I am much more comfortable going against such a teaching. I am not saying that I am fully persuaded of destruction of the wicked but it is very difficult to make a reasonable case against it.
John has ignored many things. Word meanings change with context and with the type of thing the word is connected with. He is swapping them at will to protect a doctrine. There is also a major difference in meaning between active and passive. A person can be lost but you cannot "lost" them. A person can perish, be ruined, spoiled, broken etc. But the scripture never carries these meanings when used in the active voice of God doing something to them. They are already in this state of ruin. God does not actively ruin them. They perish but God does not perish them. He destroys them. John should be more careful with principles of linguistics like he is so often when exegeting scripture so skillfully when a doctrine does not need protecting.
God is very clear that the wages of sin is death. From Genesis to Revelation he points to this fact in many ways; from clear statements connecting sin with death, to the animal sacrifices and ultimately the death of the Son of God for our sin. God gave us life and the penalty for sinning against him is that he requires that life back. This is very easy to show in God's word and it makes perfect sense. God's justice is amazing and perfectly in balance. And our Savior's atoning sacrifice makes perfect sense in the light of God's justice.
The apostle John saw, in the vision given him, a lake of fire which IS the second death. What is the first death? Few bother to answer this question to understand what the second death is. Is this a literal lake of fire? How can the 2 riders on horses, called Death and Hades and symbols thereof, be thrown into a literal lake of fire? God tells you plainly what the fire represents. It is a repeated pattern in the book of Revelation: John sees something in his vision and it is explained with the expression "this is" (these are) and what John sees as a lake of fire into which all those are thrown whose names are not in the book of life is plainly called the second death. God is consistent. The wages of sin is death.
But this contradicts eternal torment so we come up with our own, unbiblical, definition of death. Death is both an event, the end of life, and a state of being dead, not alive. And now I can hear some saying "but the definition of life is to know God so death is not knowing God." This is forcing John 17:3 into a definition of eternal life rather than it's purpose. The plainest reading is that Christ gives us life "so that we may know" God. But, even if the text intends a definition, it still does not give us permission to re-define death as not knowing God. This is straining logic for a single reason: the scriptures teach plainly the fate of the unrepentant but we need a way around it, a way to re-define the second death so it carries no meaning like the first death (the end of our earthly lives).
There is nothing MacArthur said in this message that cannot be shown to be misinterpreting the text of scripture and ignoring plain word meanings in their context but such is required to justify his belief. There is only 1 verse in the entire bible that gives me pause in finally rejecting eternal torment as biblical and that is Rev 20:10 which states that the beast, false prophet and the devil are tormented day and night, forever and ever. That is the only verse that makes such a statement and only of those three beings. And it is in apocalyptic literature and is said about things John saw in his vision. I cannot base a belief on a single verse when it contradicts so much of what God has made plain. Rev 14:10 was always a "go to verse" to prove eternal torment of humans. However there were serious problems with it being an expression of eternal torment in the lake of fire. Study the actual text, in it's context, and include a study of the wrath of God and the expression of smoke ascending forever and it becomes clear. God's wrath is against people for 2 reasons in scripture; their refusal to repent and give him the honor due him as God and their treatment of his people. Study every instance of wrath and ask "what makes God angry?" (according to the bible, not according to your invented theology), "how is God's anger expressed?" (what does it do?) and when is it quenched?" It may surprise you, if you can let go of your made-up beliefs (hint: it is always expressed in time and it ends in time, usually when a person repents and gives honor to God or is destroyed.) Only a few passages could be taken to refer to wrath in eternity but only by forcing it. They make more sense of time, especially tribulation wrath. And that is exactly what Rev 14 is talking about: torment in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. Rev. 15:1 is clear; the 7 bowls contain the wrath of God and they are the FINAL plagues because in them the wrath of God is FINISHED.
John should also study what gehenna is. It is not the "lake of fire" or "hell". The Lord is quoting the last verse of Isaiah (66:24) which plainly states that corpses are left on display outside Jerusalem in unquenchable flames with maggots after the Lord slays them at his coming(vs 15-16). I take this to be the millennium. The unquenchable fire is God's fire and does not require an "endless supply of fuel". The Lord's warning was that if they do not repent they are in danger of this destruction and utter disgrace (abhorrence to all flesh- see Dan. 12:2- everlasting contempt is the same word) instead of entering the Kingdom to which they think they have a right. Study the dynamics of an honor/shame society and the Lord's warning will seem a lot more serious. I do believe that the Lord alludes to final judgment using the temporal judgment of gehenna because the soul will not be destroyed when the Lord returns (Mt 10:28) but must be raised for judgment.
Mt 25:46- everlasting punishment is not equal to being actively tormented forever. It is "age-like" punishment; punishment having the qualities of the age to come and permantent destruction fits perfectly with this expression. And if you allow eternal life to mean the same thing, as John uses it in his gospel and letters, it becomes something even more wonderful than life that never ends. The focus given by the word "aionion" is not on infinite duration of time but life of a vastly different quality. All that we suffer here, pain, sorrow, absence from the presence of God, countless evils, sin, injustice, hardship, tears, death, hatred, disappointment, fears (and this list can be very long), will all cease to be and will be replaced by the presence of God, joy, peace, unspeakable and genuine love, righteousness and justice (and this list can be even longer than the former). And this is what is meant by age-like life; life of the age to come. See this in the expression "eternal life" and rejoice in what is in store for us who believe!
This is a huge study to do right and this message by MacArthur is nothing but careless use of scripture to justify a doctrine that has very little support in God's word. I thank our God and Savior that whatever he does will be perfectly just and right. We will all rejoice in the wisdom and righteousness of it and wonder over the depth of his love to save us. Anything other than what he does choose to do would be less than perfect, which is why he does not leave it up to us. I'm uncertain about the fate of unrepentant humanity but I know it is the absolute best thing because it is God's thing. I can picture myself standing beside John MacArthur as we witness judgment and bowing our hearts together before our God and Savior, praising him for his wisdom, justice and grace. And neither of us will have the impulse to point to the other and say "I told you so."
You were wrong the moment you thought there were errors in the Bible. God makes no mistakes
@@caughtinthevoidfloyd5821 I don't follow. Where did you get the idea that I believe there are errors in the Bible? This is a nonsensical response to what I wrote. The errors are in our doctrines because we place our thinking above the revealed word of God. I have the same high view of scripture as John MacArthur. They are the inerrant word of God as he gave them and we have very reliable texts that give us all we need to know God and his will for us.
@@williamshaw3783 im sorry you sre correct i misread your comment. My apologies
Thanks for the comment! I agree. Unfortunately I know JMs message will be suspect when he leads with insults and straw men for any opposing view.
@@danceoflifepodcast well Lazarus and rich man take place in hades (ie sheol). This is the temporary holding bay of the dead until judgement. In rev hades is emptied for judgement then death and the place hades are tossed into the lake of fire (representing their destruction).
So hades cant be used to talk about the eternal state of the wicked as its clearly temporary.
Gehenna is eternal (the lake of fire) but the question is are the people tossed there?
Im undecided but i think it very possible they will be "destroyed soul and body" like Jesus threatened.
Could be wrong. Im not certain nor do i think i ever will be in this life.
The situation I need for John MacArthur to explain to me is the issue of having everlasting life which only comes through faith in Jesus as John 3:16 outlines (and most of us Christians are familiar with this verse). In order to remain alive forever in hell's fire you must be given everlasting life in order to remain alive to endure this punishment...but everlasting life comes only by faith in Jesus Christ. We do not have an immortal soul, we were not born immortal and it is only when we gain everlasting or eternal life when we come to the full knowledge of who Jesus is and how he gives us eternal life. Paul tells us that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus. Is God going to allow a sinner to have the gift of everlasting or eternal life which is through faith in Jesus only to send him into an eternal punishing forever? That would be nonsense! He must be given some kind of eternal life somewhere in order to sustain this punishing that last forever. But minsters that speak like John MacArthur seem to tell us that we have some kind of an immortality given to us by God that is outside the authority of faith in Jesus to give us eternal life. If we are already born with some kind of immortality of eternal life, then Jesus did not have to come in the flesh to bring us to everlasting life through our faith in him. In order to sustain an everlasting punishing we have to have eternal life to do so and that is against the principles taught in the bible.
Read the Book of Jude where Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an "eternal fire." Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today in this eternal fire that literally destroyed them? That is like telling someone a true story that never happened! After these cities were destroyed, the cities were never to be ever again and that is the punishment. It is the effects of the punishment that last forever and not an everlasting punishing! The everlasting or eternal punishment for these cities is a destruction where they will never be again. Sodom and Gomorrah were never rebuilt and never will be like so many other cities liken to the San Francisco earthquake, and yet we rebuilt San Francisco. The book of Jude tells us that these cities "serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." It is an eternal punishment, not an eternal punishing!
As I look over Jude 1:7, 2Pet2:6, and the other verses preached, I conclude the phrases eternal fire etc refer to being no more. This concept fits with every verse I heard J.M speak about. I agree with your review of the Bible.
Jer17:27 'unquenchable fire' for the gates of the city. Babylon completed this task 2Chron36:19. The gates are not still burning of course. Those city gates will never be again standing. Sodom and Gomorrah will never be what they once were (even if rebuilt, they would be different). The cities are gone forever.
Practically: we became conscious, born to life from a state of nothing. Each of us came to life from non-existence. The absence of life is this eternal punishment; God wants us to have life via the work of Jesus dying for our behalf.
There is a hell and burning with the end of their lives being no more. The wicked will forever be no more. Eternal punishment for God is the absence of life after God gave us life when we were born and accountable.
The wicked will not be; eternal life is the only life with Jesus as the only way. The other choice is death (just each of us were before life).
God is merciful and calls us; but once we die without hope found in Jesus, we enter the second death. This is the absence of life and viewed as a horror to God who lives and gives life.
Amen brother George, and I would like to add, mainstream protestant Christianity uses fear and guilt to keep the sheep coming back. The fear comes from the horrendous doctrine of eternal torture. Our God is not like that. Christ suffering brought the entire world reconciliation. The lost will perish. The greek word for perish means "utter destruction."
I mostly agree, still have much more to look at. my one question is how the verse Joh 17:3. where Jesus seems to define Eternal Life. I have to contemplate more, but does this change how we view the passages described?
John M. is one of the WORST Bible teachers in America today. Sad, very Sad. Conditional Immortality is what Christ and the Apostles taught in the Bible.
Don't forget, "all" will be resurrected on the last day day. In the book of Ezekiel God declares all souls are His. He has authority over all of them. The unregenerate will be separated from Him, they are unfruitful and unrepentant and unusable. They can be put in a "place" of solitude, a place of darkness, or the place of the lake of fire or even where the worm does not die. Nobody would want to be there!
The point is they still exist, still have a soul, just not experiencing the full and abundant "life" as Jesus promised to the believers!
Rather a solo, sorrowful, uncomfortably isolated existence, weeping, being eaten by worms, gnashing their teeth enraged with anger in the darkest of dark groping forever! This is what eternal death must look like!
The human soul is not immortal, it only has life from God. How could we be alive in hell separated from God? That would technically mean people in hell have "eternal life", which the Bible says is only for believers.
I was thinking that too. Then also, it would mean that God would have to keep regenerating their nerves and body parts over and over and over to keep feeling that kind of pain. Sick n twisted..??
Eternal conscious torment is a horrible doctrine!
@@Butterfly777jcExcellent point
Yes.
@@Butterfly777jc If things like ferocious carnivores can be considered "ungodly" in this fallen world (and something that won't exist in the New Earth), we assume they'll just cease to exist. While I know people can be sinners and other animals cannot: the fact that God couldn't just make the ungodly people die forever, is odd. I'm not even saying there couldn't be a punishment for the wicked, a "2nd death" that might be pretty bad, depending on the person. Why call our first death literal and a "2nd death" an eternal life of "death/separation" with regenerated nerves, etc.
Anyway, this is all just my speculation and opinion, including the Bible/God in the first place.
My question would be, what spirit does a person have when they die? Does that determine where the soul is placed also?
Funny to hear someone trying to explain that destroy does not mean destroy, but eternal life in torments.
Jesus said in other verses "eternal torment." Your understanding of what life/death is, is lacking.
@@kimmykimkowhere in the gospel did Jesus say those two words together like that? He uses "torment" and "eternal" but not together.
Their reading comprehension skills aren’t that great. They can’t even make it through Genesis 2 and 3 without a profound misunderstanding of what God said. YOU shall surely die. From dust YOU came, to dust YOU shall return. Notice the personal pronouns.
Nothing was said to Adam about a pagan immortal soul that floats away after death. Nothing was said to Adam about “Hell.”
The word “die” is used 75 times in Genesis, but these people insist that three times it really means “separation” when every other time it means death.
The cherub with the flaming sword guarding the Tree of Life proves beyond any question that they are wrong and continue to believe Satan’s first lie.
They’re going to be disappointed when God’s day of wrath and fury will be far hotter than their “Hell.” No one will survive it.
@@BenClarkCECrev. 20:10
@gardennimanongarvin7809 yes, that is one place you can see it. But it's not in a gospel, which JM claims here, and it doesn't say what people claim it does. It's a highly pictorial prophetic book. Rev 20.10 is about The Beast and the False Prophet. If you read it the way the traditional view does then you end up contracting what Jesus says about the body and soul being destroyed in Hell.
Annihilationism and Soul Sleep are not the same thing at all.
Annihilationism - The view that all unsaved humans will eventually be annihilated by God, they will not suffer eternally.
Soul Sleep - The view that after death people go into a state of "sleep", are not conscious, until the resurrection to eternal life or eternal condemnation.
I was dumbfounded when I heard this coming from a supposedly learned man.
Knowledge shall increase....
My people perish for a lack of knowledge...
Them
Perish means eternal lack of knowledge...
Isn't soul sleep like, what the Bible teaches? I'm an annihilationist too but I thought it was pretty clear soul sleep was confirmed. Ig Sheol and Hades can be a conscious holding place but not until judgement day is it stated we arise.
@@portallover3478I agree. I believe in Soul sleep long before I was an anililationist. I think it is so clear. However, most evangelical wouldn't agree with us.
Agreed! How do you say you havent tried to listen to Aniliationism arguments without saying you havent listened?
John MacArthur should read Malachi 4:1 from either the KJV or NKJV. It says, "the day is coming burning like an oven. And all the proud yes all who do wickedly will be stubble. And on that day will BURN THEM UP says the Lord of hosts. Not a root nor branch will be left of them." That doesn't leave any room for eternal torment. Keep in mind that people who lived at the time of Malachi didn't have the Book of Revelation. All they knew was that evil would be punished and righteousness will be rewarded. I hope this helps.
@@Peekaboo-Kitty so the body gets cast into hell?
“and they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.” The Bible says they’ll burn to ashes, and man says they’ll never die and be in endless torment.
That's talking about the Day of the Lord where God will destroy the wicked by the "Brightness of His coming." This is talking about God's Day of the Lord, Wrath destroying the wicked inhabitants of the earth. Peter describes it this way; "The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt in fervent heat, and the earth and all its works will be burned up." AGAIN, this is God's Wrath on the earth and its wicked inhabitants, NOT what happens in hell.
@@ModerateMicthat has absolutely nothing to do with your soul because Hell is eternal damnation and it is forever because the Bible says it and if you're Name is not found in the book of life you will end up in Hell forever and yes it is eternal torture and if I were you I would turn away from your foolish beliefs and stop listening to foolish universalism because you will end up in Hell forever if you don't repent and yes you have a soul and it is eternal so stop being stupid.
Reading various verses, the promise for those who trust in Jesus for salvation is eternal life. Believers are saved from death. There is, of course, hell. I think it's foolish to deny its existence. So unbelievers who die do go to hell for temporary torment. Then after judgment they are sent to the lake of fire and are consumed, terminated.
Exactly🤝
We are not immortal 1Tim6:15-16
@@jamesmccluskey391 That is a very poor proof texting example. Immortality and existing for eternity are not the same thing. If they were, eternal life for the believer is not real and God is a liar.
@@Peekaboo-Kitty Thanks for the reply, dear brother/sister. I fully agree with your statement "Hell is the Justice of God."; that's not being disputed. In fact, you may remember Matthew 10:28, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One [God] who can destroy both soul and body in hell." So again, hell is real, and those who die as unbelievers go there for torment until they are finally destroyed. God bless.
@@VictorFelipe82 Hi Felipe. I respectfully, yet strongly, disagree about Hell being temporary punishment. Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV.
Before and after becoming a Christian, I struggled with the idea of eternal torment for unbelievers. This didn’t jive with my concept of a loving and just God.
Loving: burning is the worst pain possible as I’ll illustrate in a minute
Just: burning forever for sinning for 70 years
Last Thanksgiving, my daughter Arika accidentally spilled hot coffee on herself. She ran into the bathroom screaming, and continued doing so for at least half an hour. I asked what I could do to help, but she was inconsolable. It broke my heart.
Out of the 31k verses in the Bible, there are only a handful that deal with eternal punishment. And they are on shaky ground IMHO. If this concept was really true, don’t you think it deserves more attention? If this concept was really true, don’t you think it’d be preached every Sunday, in every church
It used to be, but they don’t preach on it much now because it hurts people’s feelings.
Even more to support your case, the Greek word Aion, which is used to justify eternal torment, actually means age. So, we see a clear eisegesis with at least modern translations, dating back to the Vulgate, that Eternal Hell was actually punishment age during. Not only does it out rule Eternal Punishment, it graciously opens the door to Universal Reconciliation and Annihilation. Personally, I believe in Universal Reconciliation. God Bless.
So is the lake of fire a real lake or is it a symbol for something more? Did Jesus really say to drink his real blood or was it symbolism, is Jesus a real Lamb, is God a real Rock, is eternal fire a real fire , ECT. I think you get the point. If death that can't suffer is thrown in the lake of fire then what's the purpose?🤔 Revelation 20:14 " Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." 1st Corinthians 15:26"The last enemy to be destroyed is death." Destroyed huh case closed
Thank you so much for this. I’m struggling in my faith more than ever before, because of the concept of eternal suffering. As well as the concept of everyone being evil, horrible, incapable of goodness. We have goodness in us as well as evil. There is no way we are all that horrible…
Also, I don’t think anyone truly believes in eternal torment.. if they did, they would be emotionally tortured every single day. How can you even look someone in the face and be okay with them being tortured eternally? If anyone believes that’s true, how can they bring themselves to live day to day? Don’t they realize the severity of eternal torment? What about loving each other? If you love someone who isn’t a Christian, how can you cope with this knowledge? There is no way. If eternal torment was true, there is no way to cope with that knowledge. If we are all wretched and evil and have no goodness at all, how can we be capable of love?
Either view is bad for the unsaved, it is important that we continue growing so we can share the truth with the world, and snatch souls away from Satan!
I’ve collected over 100 scriptures that imply or directly point to annihilationism or conditional immortality. McArthur believes in the immortality of the human soul, which is more Plato rather than scripture.
I expected a more studied critique of annihilationism , I was hoping it would challenge my viewpoint.
Hey, I’m very new to this idea I was wondering if we could exchange emails and if you could share the things you’ve found from this. I’m leaning towards annilhilationism and I want to get as much info as I can on it
@@uhlane what’s your address
I believe MacArthur did a decent job briefly refuting the doctrine of annihilation but I also believe he did a terrible job refuting the doctrine of temporary punishment. He's very manipulative and dishonest in this aspect. I'm a Christian universalist and believe that all people will eventually receive salvation but some "as through fire" which is also a reference to the refining qualities within the lake of fire to remove all impurities. This process is very long and is "age-abiding", not forever and ever without end. The Greek, Roman, and Hebrew context is supremely important.
There are at least 200 verses in favour of Annihilationism
@@Mrm1985100 The English translations make it seem like our souls are completely destroyed but the original Greek does not agree. Check out this video. It is biblical and consistent with scripture.
ua-cam.com/video/KSmA00U6gr4/v-deo.html
4 … the SOUL that sinneth, it shall DIE.
5 … he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 18:4-9 (KJV)
And
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now PERISHED; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 (KJV)
Your love and your hates are what dictate how you react to the events of life, they are who you are, they make you, you.
You don’t punish a mortal with an immortal punishment.
No where in the bible (KJV) does it say we are created with a eternal soul, how does one inherit something that he already has?
All Glory to God. Amen
I just stumbled across this idea of annihilation in hell. Surely brothers and sisters, let us pray and seek God for His wisdom. I'm not saying I believe in annihilation of the soul but someone who does suggested; If we sincerely believe that people even loved ones would be put in a place where they will suffer forever endlessly in pain being set on fire for eternity, and we know that this is what those who aren't know by Christ will be; and we don't feel this urgency to warn everyone day and night nonstop. When it takes only a couple minutes to tell them the Gospel, than we have become extremely callous and cold
Why does he think that a dozen examples of things being destroyed strengthens his case?
Quite what I thought, He just gave the theory more strength😅
LOL it's hilarious.
You KNOW you're on the wrong side of the battle, when your proof that souls aren't destroyed in the lake of fire is that destroyed also means, killed, drowned, perished, etc. LOL in ALL cases, it means they're DEAD and THAT'S our point, the wicked will no longer live, they do NOT have eternal life, they are NOT immortal.
Eternal life is for the just, it's specifically stated as our reward for following Christ, it even says WHEN we put on immortality, at our resurrection AT His return. We aren't inherently born with it, or why would He need to bestow it on us?
Notice he couldn't give us ONE example where destroyed meant eternal life, but the fact that destroyed can mean all different kinds of death, means that when Jesus says God can do all those various meanings of death to a soul, it REALLY means the soul lives for eternity!
The myths of Gehenna and Hades that Christ spoke of (translated "hell") did not originate with him. The OT is clear that in the grave there is no activity. During the intertestamental period, rabbinical writings made Sheol an abode of living souls (1 Enoch; Judith, c. 300-200 BC) due largely to Greek influences. There was fire, cries of pain, darkness, and even a gate to Gehenna. Christ did use these descriptions, but only because he had a Jewish audience where many (though not all) believed in the Greco-Jewish noncanonical afterlife. Paul is more plain: The wages of sin is death, eternal life is a gift of God given only to those who trust in Christ.
the trash in Gehenna is quite annihilated.
@@blue_blue-1 that maybe but that's Not what the Bible says about it because that's the description of what the actual lake of fire will be and No I'm afraid that there is No annihilation at all because the lake of fire of hell is eternal damnation which means you will be in hell forever and you will burn in hell forever if you don't get saved and sanctified through the Lord Jesus Christ YOU WILL END UP IN ETERNAL LAKE OF FIRE THAT BURNS WITH SULFUR AND YOU WILL REMAIN IN HELL FOREVER IF YOU DON'T REPENT AND YOUR SOUL WILL LIVE FOREVER MORE SO THERE'S NO ANNIHILATION.
@@blue_blue-1 Nope there's No annihilation in Hell and HELL is FOREVER RATHER YOU BELIEVE IT OR NOT AND WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR UNBELIEF BECAUSE YOU WILL GO TO HELL IF YOU DON'T REPENT YOU GOT THAT.
@@Leenightwolf he could be a christian, there can be different views without it being sin some certain views may be heretic
@@chadgaming8071 what are you talking about?
I am still learning this subject but this are some of the arguments
sinners pay for their sins in the lake of fire and then perish, experience the second death, suffer eternal destruction. Jesus said fear God who can kill both soul and body in hell. Still learning this subject.
Genesis 2:7 states man IS a soul. We do not HAVE a soul. The physical body + the Breath of God combined is a living soul. So if God destroy your soul then you are destroyed completely. As if you never were.
It doesn say fear God who can body and soul in hell. It does not say God
@@caughtinthevoidfloyd5821 Matthew 20:28. Jesus is speaking about God. He was contrasting what man can do vs what God can do.
I never knew macarthur was such a good gymnest. The mental gymnastics that he just did with these plain and simple words was quite amazing
losing respect for him
You mean comparing those verses with other verses that use the same word? That’s called Bible study my friend
@@ravikeller9626 no i think he meant what he said.
Honestly I was expecting a solid rebuttal but it doesn't seem like he is even aware of the stances of conditional immortality other than the most surface level arguments. There's a reason why all 60+ translations of the Bible on Bible gateway translate apollymi as destroy rather than lost or ruin in Matthew 10:28: it just means destroy. Quench means to extinguish, or forcibly cause a fire to stop burning. Unquenchable fire is a fire which cannot be *put out* , not a fire that will never stop burning. Even if that is what it meant, there's no reason to believe that the wicked, in their mortal and unglorified state, would be able to withstand the destructive power of God, who is a "consuming fire". MacArthur seems to acknowledge that the *trash* he threw into his "always burning" incinerator was destroyed, burned to ash like the weeds in Matthew 13:40, yet believes that the wicked will not be destroyed body and soul in Gehenna. I hope he takes another, more thorough, examination of the scriptures and conditionalist arguments.
The best Bible teachers in the world can't make a solid rebuttal of annihilationism because eternal torment has so little going for it once you dig beneath the surface of only a very few number of verses that superficially seem to support it
0:30 "it's the popular idea because it feels comfortable": or maybe it's because annihilationism is in harmony with our God-given conscience, which we are commanded in Scripture not to sear or ignore.
This actually Affirmed in my view of Annihilationism even more. Nice job Johnny.
Weird flex, but ok
Translation: “I can’t answer John’s arguments so instead, I choose irrationality”
Annihilationism is not soul sleep. Please people, Don't take a single preachers word for this stuff. There are plenty of resources out there that dig into the biblical support of annihilationism. Despite what Mr McArthur claims, Scripture can speak for itself, and annihilationism is a definite possibility as is ECT. Don't take a single preachers word for it. Lord knows, we don't need a bunch of Christians running around acting like know it alls shaking their finger at other believers who believe differently, just because a single preacher said not to believe it. Don't ever give someone else that power. It should be Christ's alone. Trust His Spirit in you as you tackle issues in scripture. As much as these preachers might love for you to do, don't take their understanding of scripture as the truth. We are all fallible, and get things wrong.
(Side note, eternal punishment started to be taught in the early 200 AD. The destruction of the wicked was taught much sooner. It's not a new concept and it doesn't mean bible teachers have gone astray. John is really stretching the truth here. Be careful for that.)
Excellent points.
MacArthur conveniently did not mention Isaiah 66:24´s mention of the unquenchable fire. There is says there are just _dead bodies_ there, nobody screaming or writhing in eternal torment.
He also conveniently did not mention the annihilation of the devil himself in Ezekiel 28:18,19:
I made fire come from within you,
and it _consumed_ you.
I _reduced you to ashes_ on the ground
[...]
You have come to a horrible end
and *_will be no more.’ ”_*
Yes indeed totally in Isaiah 66 the dead bodies are being consumed totally by a worms and fire. Therefore the bodies are not eternal and since they are dead they're not conscious and since they are not conscious they're not feeling any pain or torment. Therefore this verse when you look a little bit more deeply does not support any aspect of eternal conscious comment whatsoever
1st death is fleshly,2nd one is spiritual forever.
As someone who studies Greek. MacArthur knows damn well that the original texts for "Eternal Torment" are actually "Age enduring (eonian) Chastisement" Or at least he should know. So either he's dishonest or is the worst scholar ever.
Agreed
i could be incorrect but i there are about 14 verses in the NT where jesus talks about hell.HE does not say anything about burnin forever and ever..HE does say people will be "burned up".."destroyed".."perish"..
in 2peter3:10 it says "both the earth &the works that are in the earth will be burned up "
john3:16 the word "perish"is used..
romans6:23 for the wages of sin is death but the gift of GOD is eternal life.
if you burn FOREVER in hell then you also have ETERNAL LIFE do you not... something is not adding up.. how can the saved and the damned have eternal life????
luke13:3 you will perish
john3:16 you should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE!!!!
how can someone be not there and there at the same time????
matt25:46 eternal punishment is SINGULAR NOT PLURAL..
the punishment is eternal but not the punishing..
matt10:28 this is very direct FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH THE SOUL AND BODY... THAT IS VERY CLEAR..
matt7:13-14 the word DESTRUCTION..
ALL THIS FROM THE NT.
the NT must match up with the OT not the other way round...WHY????
b ecause does it not say....GOD NEVER CHANGES... SO what is said in the OT should be the same in the NT.
REMEMBER THIS FROM 1 TIM 6: 16
who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NOW FROM THE OT...ALM
:9-20 the wicked will be no more....FOR the wicked will PERISH.
for the enemies of the LORD like the splender of the meadow shall vanish.
MALACHI3:6 for i am the LORD, I CHANGE NOT..........THAT IS GOD SPEAKING..
HE cannot say something different in the NT now can HE????
MALACHI 4:1-3 the wicked will be stubble,shall burn them up ,leave them neither nor root or branch, they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet...
THIS IS GOD SAYING THIS NOT MAN....THESE ARE GODS WORDS
would this not be ANNIHILATION?????
psalm145:20 all the wicked will destroy.
psalm 21:9 the fire will devour them...
OBADIAH 1:15-16 they shall be as if they never were...
psalm 92:7 though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers florish
THEY WILL BE FOREVER DESTROYED..... THAT IS A POWERFULL STATEMENT...
psalm 10:20 but the wicked will perish and the enemines of the LORD shall be as the fat of the lambs, they shall consume into smoke they will consume away.. AGAIN THAT IS PRETTY POWERFULL STATEMENT..
EZEKIEL 28::18-19 THIS IS GOD SPEAKING.......i will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and i will bring thee the ashes upon the earth in sight of all them that behold thee...
NT... TIES IN WITH THE OT here
2PETER 2:6 SODOM AND GOMORRHA were set as example, they were destroyed and made into ASHES... is that place still burning today???
ALL THIS POINTS TO " COMPLETE ANNIHILATION "
please show me where i am WRONG?????
how can the damned also ETERNAL LIFE, EVEN IF IT IS HELL... IF THEY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ....... GOD LIED AND EVERYONE HAS ETERNAL LIFE...
Brother I would love to show you where you are wrong unfortunately I can't because you are right however John mccarthur was very popular and the traditional view is very entrenched. However what you say is true so I'm going with you
@@michaelnewzealand1888 thank you good brother..all the best to ya..
very true
He literally proves the word *apolomy* “destroy to confirm the thoughts of destruction. Plain as day. The dead are dead.
Riddle me these two questions…
1) why are the ones asleep in Christ the first to be wakened??
2) if death and hell are to be thrown in the lake of fire. How can the lake of fire be a place of torment if hell is tossed in this place?
It is to show that even death will cease to exist. How would death be conquered if the second death is continual?
Also is it a problem that Rev 20:10 describes the lake of fire as a place of torment for the beast/ false prophet and devil. (makes sense to me)
@@danielbrowniel again I ask: if later in revelation 20 we read that death and Hell (hades) are thrown into this lake of fire. How is it that you can reason that hades or hell is the lake of fire???? It can’t be the place where you are tormented daily can it?
Revelation 20:14 (ASV) And death and *Hades were cast into the lake of fire.* This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Moreover. What loving God do you know, would give you 80 years to be the worst kind of sinner and then judge you to eternity in suffering???
Even his own laws of love and justice would say if you sinned for 80 years. The best he can do is 80 years of a torturing sentence.
Open your eyes my friend. The truth is here. The dead are dead. And the only hope you have to come back from it is the resurrection that Christ gave opportunity to.
This teaching matches up with what the serpent said in Genesis...surely u won't die ...Bottom Line only the Son Gives life, only those that accept him are granted life after this earthy death...this is why when we die in this life we are considered sleep until the Lord returns while the wicked are considered dead BECAUSE they face the second death in the lake of fire
Jesus is Lord
I'm sorry JM. I agree with pretty much everything you preach except for this. There are numerous scriptures alluding to people being destroyed in hell. But to suggest an all powerful, all loving and all merciful God would punish an individual (even the very worst of such) by torturing them forever in a lake of fire is just plain wrong. We ad humans forgive the worst in our own children and would never unleash such punishment on them, let alone anyone else. We are created in the image of God and yet any human punishment is temporary, with a fixed amount of time. Imagine there is an individual who commits just one sin in their entire life and yet either did not accept Christ or else knew nothing about him. Do you expect anyone to sincerely believe that person deserves the same fate as Hitler? If God has tiers of reward for belivers, it stands to reason the same is true for punishment.
Do we doubt that God is not powerful and wise and loving enough to redirect and correct ALL of His straying children, even if it includes giving them afterlife punishments to purge and purify them for an age or a season? God wants all to be saved, and He will get everything He wants - The Bible says God will not keep His anger forever, but it says His mercy will be forever. It says all flesh will come to Him, the spirit of all will return to God who gave it, Rev 5:13, all created beings will eventually give praise to God in worship, Psalm 66:4, All the earth shall worship You And sing praises to You; They shall sing praises to Your name.” Selah 1 Cor 15:28 God will finally be "All in all", Act 3:21 God will restore everything, everyone. Rev 21 God says "Behold, I make all things new!" Death will be destroyed, which is the last enemy, so there will be no more death, no more second death, no more hell, which was included in the second death, hell will be no more. God desires all to be saved, He has the power to change our hearts, He will do everything He desires according to Isaiah 46:10. We all know God forgives those who repent in this life, why do we think God cannot forgive those who repent in the afterlife, if God desires to forgive them, if it is His will to forgive and save them in the afterlife? Who would or could stop Him if He desires to save us all? Both the Bible and the Koran state that His mercy triumphs over His judgement. Glory to God! Let us love God and show kindness to all to please Him so corrections and harsh punishments are not necessary in our future. All will be revealed, all will be restored by the Almighty! His mercy endures forever, Jesus came to take away the sins of the world, God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
Thank you sir, @GregS4Jesus
Matthew 25:46 -- Conclusion: Christian universalists have no fewer than three legitimate "outs" for the traditionalists' #1 proof-text for eternal conscious torment. Let that sink in.
And I haven't even discussed the Greek word for punishment, _kolasis,_ about which Greek expert and popular Bible commentator William Barclay wrote:
"The Greek word for punishment here [Matt. 25:46] is _kolasis,_ which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature _kolasis_ is never used of anything but _remedial_ punishment." -- _A Spiritual Autobiography,_ Eerdmans, 1977, pgs. 65-67.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart”
Ecclesiastes 3:11
I remember reading about a TV preacher who retired and decided to study some of the doctrines he spent so much time teaching and discovering that he was wrong. It takes a lot of courage to preach the truth. Truth is not popular. The doctrine of eternal torment and people having a soul instead of being a soul was not taught by the early church. In fact one of the popes somewhere around the 5th century got in trouble by calling the doctrine heresy! He did not end up pope for long! There are several doctrines we would do well to restudy! John said that the idea of the person being destroyed was a pleasing doctrine. Well how? Yes it is pleasing in the sense it doesn't make God look worst than Hitler! It also makes sense that justice is done. Eternal hell fire would do no good for the sinner. It would do no good for the saints. It would do no good for anybody. God is a God of love and justice. There is no justice for a 10 year old child who died at 10 as a sinner and burn for 100 million years multiplied by eternity!
So trash never gets annihilated in a trash incinerator, it just stays there forever?
no because matter cannot cease to exist. bad analogy. trash still exists even after burned. the fire just turns it to ash and smoke but it still exists
First of all that is trash and second of all does trash have eternal souls? But you as a human being you have a soul and you're so will not go from nonexistence you're so will not be annihilated your soul will live forever and if you don't repent likewise you shall perish and if you go to hell for not repenting you going to find out differently because hell is forever and it is conscious torment Rather you
believe it or not
@@Leenightwolf 1st: This was a counter-argument to what John said as he was the one who used that metaphor, so take it up with him lol
2nd: What were our souls doing before we were born? I don't see how our souls MUST live forever if there was a time when they weren't existing. The idea of an eternal soul comes more from Greek philosophy than the Bible from what I understand. I believe that God gives us immortality (through the tree of life in the garden and in the new Jerusalem) rather than the idea that we are eternal ourselves. God bless.
@@jardine2392are you that ignorant to believe that a soul will Not live forever and are you that ignorant to think that way? I mean seriously are you really that ignorant believing that a human spirit won't live forever seriously?
@@Leenightwolf Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (NIV)
I think you should at least consider this as a possibility, annihilationism is very present in Scripture and you should read the Bible for what it says and not just what you've always believed
Mac would be miserable if he found out there is no eternal torture for the unsaved, just the second death.
Imagine if he found out that Jesus is saving everyone!
Titus 2:11 (original Greek): For the grace of God has been revealed, saving all people.
Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence. ALSO, Luke 16:22-24 says, "“The time came when the (Godly) beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The (wicked) rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire." Notice how the wicked rich man goes immediately into punishment in flames. He says, and I quote, "I am in agony in this fire." This is NOT a literal description of annihilation and doesn't make ANY sense as some sort of metaphorical, parable about annihilation. People who are annihilated do NOT talk, feel, recognize other people, experience torment or anything else; they are put completely out of existence.
The passage from Revelation 14 that says “forever and ever” is common metaphorical language. Go see Genesis where Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed and the smoke rises “forever and ever”…clearly metaphorical. Peter even says S&G are an example of the eternal fire. What happened there? Everyone died.
The rich man and Lazarus isn’t even relevant. First, it’s a parable. Even if it isn’t a parable it doesn’t have anything to do with the subject because it clearly isn’t at final judgement because there are still people on earth.
I love John MacArthur, but I disagree with him on this one. He, along with many,doesn’t fully understand it. I prefer the term Conditional Immortality to Annihilationism. God alone has immortality (1Timothy 6:16) and it is His to give out as he sees. Iranaeus wrote about this in Against Heresies - he was clearly a Conditionalist in the second century. CI didn’t say that people just “go out of existence” but instead they die…or perish…or are destroyed…just as the Bible says. Also, this is not the same as soul sleep as JM stated. Many that believe CI is the correct interpretation of final judgment, including me, do not believe in soul sleep. Those two doctrines are distinctly different.
Man I just said almost identical as you. It is very interesting that we have both similar view and feelings from MacArthur.
This my original text :
Christians are so happy that there is hell. It is visible even here on MacArthur - almost indescribable passion and satisfaction as he so much fulfilled as not Hades and not Sheol is right term but gehenna. Because in is in his basic nature to torture if it is possible. real Christian love is here everywhere. You can see this in so many Christians as they not only inform about hell , but they seems that if there would not be a hell like gehenna then they would not enjoy themselves.
@@ViolinistJeffnope that's your belief and that is your opinion and you are wrong because that's not what the Bible says
I can prove with just two scriptures that the doctrine of eternel torment is false. In revelation chapter 20, death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire. In chapter 21, you read that death is no more. Therefore death was illuminated in the lake of fire and no longer exists.
Yup
Good one.
eliminated not illuminated
The Calvinists are so gleeful about eternal torment for those who never had a chance at salvation, do you think they would really ever give up their beloved eternal hell?
They love it because its...POWER
I’m a Calvinist but I believe in annhilationism.
@@ModerateMic Then you're not a Calvinist. You're a person who agrees with most of their doctrines. I believe the Bible teaches around 80% of the time that hell is a long time but not eternal (Luke 12:59-60). But around 20% of the time it seems to indicate hell is forever; but if you look at how they inconsistently (and with then-contemporary/Catholic bias) translate aion from the Greek, even most of those 20% fall into the long-but-not-eternal category.
@@paul3441 I believe in all 5-points of Calvinism. What you believe about hell has nothing to do with the doctrines of grace.
@@ModerateMic Fair enough. I find Calvinism to be opinion based. The points might be true, and they might not be true. There are valid arguments and scriptures for both sides. What I don't like is the fact that it is a religion--it is based on a man's opinion, named after a man, and rigid in its beliefs although they are not issues of salvation ultimately.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:11-15
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
I wish John would've addressed immortality, that's another argument they use, that the wicked are mortal, so they can't suffer eternally.
I wish many Christians would actually read the paleo Hebrew old testament manuscripts and the koine greek manuscripts because hell is nowhere in the Bible.
@@bigq2696 Exactly. This false doctrine has done so much harm to Christianity and have turned so many people away. I have still yet to hear one good argument for eternal heII.
@@xintimidate Finally it took me a long time to figure out but when I actually started to read the Bible in the language that it is written you find it nowhere in the Bible.
Exactly!!
@@bigq2696 Gehenna was considered an actual afterlife in Second Temple Judaism. Sometimes permanant sometimes temporary. The Pharisee schools ofShammai and Hillel believed in Gehenna as an actual place in the afterworld. Hades was another word for sheol and within sheol there were separate levels with a chasm between them. Abraham's Bosom was one area of sheol.
There's NO WAY hell is eternal. God would NEVER allow evil to go on forever. And also we don't have eternal souls so we can't be punished for all eternity! The old testament was pretty clear that death is the price for sin. There's no such thing as eternal punishment. The sinners will be punished fairly for their finite sins and then both them and the devil with his angels will be cast to the lake of fire, which is eternal destruction.
I can’t find an argument for what you are saying and it’s taken me 25 years to get here
Hell isn't evil. God created it.
Excellent point @aahley
If Hell is real, does that mean that motherly love is more powerful and enduring than God's love? Do you know of normal parents who would endlessly torment most of their kids? Why do we believe our heavenly Father, Who is millions of times more loving than all of us combined, could do such an evil, wicked thing?
didnt convince me to believe in eternal punishment. i still lean towards annihilationism
If you believe in annihilation then you are a very stupid person indeed and there's no such thing as annihilation.
The damned shall be completely. exterminated in the Lake of fire, which is the Second Death: they shall be no more.
Not good enough
@@raysonraypay5885 Are you saying the bible isnt good enough?
that means they are of No more consequence. They exist But not to God. When all those who are judged who didn't accept Jesus they are of nothing to God. He remembers then no more.
How terrifying.
@@micahsnodgrass9883 No that doesnt. If someone gets the death penalty is your response " that means they are of No more consequence" um no. You dont think burning a second death and not getting into heaven is a strong enough consequence? How sadistic do you have to be to believe in an eternal heII? The bible doesnt teach is. Matter of fact the Greek/Hebrew manuscripts dont even have the word "heII". Stop preaching a false gospel and scaring people away from Christ. How can you claim "heII" is separation from God but then have the same belief God is omnipresent??? That makes 0 sense. The wicked will be judged for their sins based off what they have done and be thrown into the lake of fire then cease to exist after their punishment bc God is a merciful just God. Not the sadistic monster you paint him out to be. Your belief of heII comes straight from Satans mouth. You are calling God a liar if you think all souls are immortal. God told Adam you shall surely die. Satan said you shall not surely die. You make God out to be a liar. Study annihilationism its what the bible teaches. Not your man made doctrine
@@xintimidateExcellent points
If death is eternal life in Hades, then what is life?
EXACTLY... The problem is John M. unwillingness to correct himself. He's one of the worst Bible teachers in America.
Using his logic it could be eternal death in heaven. Lol
Don’t you just love calvinists like MacArthur? They believe that only those chosen by God receive salvation, yet they also believe that God will send someone to eternal suffering just because they weren’t lucky enough to be chosen. God’s character is unchanging and one of his main attributes is that he is a just God. Does that sound just to you?
Excellent points
John 6:44
I find that the more I listen to John Mcarthur the more I'm convinced he's a word twisting false teacher!!
Let's say the fate of sinners is to have everlasting torture in hell. Okay.
Jesus took the punishment for our sins, yet he's not in everlasting torture in hell. So if everlasting torture is the fate of sinners, then Jesus did not take that same punishment.
I don't know. I'm still trying to understand this one.
To add to that, Jesus suffered and died so we don't have to suffer and die for sin, if hell is forever torture that would meen Jesus didn't even suffer anything at all compared to what the wicked will
Jesus was innocent. Jesus was God.
@@johnray5665 yeah?
Totally valid line of thinking which is why Annihilationism fits the model much better. Jesus died for our sins because the penalty for sin is death and that was the punishment promise to Adam and all human being since have died Christ has conquered death. I don't believe he conquered eternal torment
So we have to take "eternal punishment" as lasting forever, because it correlates to "eternal life" in the final judgment. But when Jesus says "Destroy both body and soul in hell", even though destroy can mean "kill", and even though it is correlated with people literally killing the body, we are supposed to interpret it as "ruin". Because it was used that way somewhere else in reference in inanimate objects (wineskins). What?!
Explain away "the smoke of their torment ascended forever & ever"
where is the bible does it say that mans soul is immortal??
Man is called mortal in the Bible however the immortal soul concept is a part of Greek philosophy from Plato and Aristotle and Socrates.
Pastors need to do a deep dive on how all these English bibles came to be. Early believers did not beleive all this hell and eternal punishment garbage, nor did the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts have hell and damnation in them, these are pagan beliefs written and put in later. Look at young’s literal translation.
Specifically, in the dozen or so verses where hell, the lake of fire or destruction is said to be "eternal," "everlasting" or "forever," it's based on the Greek word _aionios._ If you google "aionios" you'll find many opinions about its meaning. There are excellent reasons to believe it should be translated "of an age." The adjective _aionios_ is derived from the noun _aion,_ which means "eon" or "age." Eons and ages are long but *finite* periods of time. The very literal Rotherham's Emphasized Bible version translates _aionios_ as "age-abiding." Young's Literal Translation says "age-during," which means during an age.
Also, the fact that "forever and ever" is nonsensical (how can anything be added to forever?) should be seen as a red flag -- not about biblical authority but about Bible translations from the Greek.
what does MaCarthur mean when he says annihilationism is the "popular view"
In recent years annihilationism has become more and more popular because people are realising that it is more biblical. Old traditions Die Hard and nothing dies harder and the eternal torment nonsense.
It's always been eternal torment, acts17:21 people like to hear new things & 2timothy4:3 itchy ears, annihilation is a new thing, Jesus said the fire isn't put out & the worm doesn't die, the first death is fleshly, the 2nd one is spiritual, forever.
@@Gman-j3e In fact it has NOT always been eternal torment. Innumerable Christians have held to annihilationism in the past.
Jesus also said that hell was RESERVED for the devil and his like. Tough to fit a bunch of people into a place that is reserved for others. The worm not dying is a reference to Is. 66 and is conspicuously mistranslated by thought for thought translations.
If the 2nd death is truly a death than it would result in annihilation. Makes sense in light of 1 Tim. 6 which says that God alone is immortal.
@@michaelnewzealand1888 I agree that eternal torment is nonsense. It is one of the most bizzarre things I can think of personally. Jesus said that hell was literally reserved for the devil and his like.
A game-changing quote:
"Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used _aidon_ to denote endless, and always used _aionion_ to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of _Philo_ says he never used _aionion_ for interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv: 46, precisely as Christ used it. *'It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment **_(kolasis aionios)_** from such as are more powerful.'* Here we have the exact terms employed by our Lord, to show that _aionion_ did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."
-- J. W. Hanson, _Bible Threatenings Explained,_ 1888, pgs. 123-124
Philo (c. 20 BC - c. 50 AD) was a prominent Jewish philosopher who lived in nearby Alexandria, Egypt.
MacArthur has misinterpreted every single verse he has put forward to defend Eternal Torment.
Eternal torment is a doctrine of the Devil.
God has shown Himself to both a Merciful, and a just God.
Mercy was shown at the cross.
His just nature precludes any conception of unendurable, unending agony for the sins committed in a man's short lifespan... no matter the sin.
The punishment will fit the sin. It will be fierce enough to do so, perhaps the main part of it, knowing what might have been gained that will never be.
Matthew 25:46 -- "The [goats] will go away into eternal _(aionion)_ punishment, but the [sheep] into eternal _(aionion)_ life." The traditional argument: "Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionion)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionion)_ punishment must also be endless."
Christian universalist response -- Possibility #2:
An adjective *can* means two different things in the same sentence (e.g. *_aionion_** in Rom. **16:25**-26,* Habakkuk 3:6, "A huge man is climbing a huge mountain."):
"Jesus is referring to two completely different things -- life and punishment. Eternal life is divine life that comes from God. That divine life never ends. Eternal punishment is divine punishment from His hand. The duration of that divine punishment may certainly be temporary, lasting only until it accomplishes its purpose." -- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017, pg. 140
"Augustine raised the argument that since _aionios_ in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of _aionios_ is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when _aionios_ referred to the duration of Jonah's entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, _aionios_ referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon's temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether." -- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 26
In other words, _aionion_ doesn't make God eternal, but God makes _aionion_ eternal.
Also that word for torment comes from the greek word 'basanos' Basanos means to be tested for purity. Another example of the mistranslation of the scriptures in order to skew the truth.
Thank you John MacArthur for proving annihilationism.
I love John McArthur but this time his argumentation was weak. Annihilation has more Bible verse than eternal suffering.
Lol you guys are too funny. Scripture is plain that hell is eternal and the very notion that it isn't was born from heresy, folks that didn't feel it would be "fair" for God to punish rebel sinners eternally. In other words desiring to be God and do His job. Hell is eternal as the church has always understood. This is why all the great exegetes of the Bible have so taught.
Lol you guys are too funny. Scripture is plain that hell is eternal and the very notion that it isn't was born from heresy, folks that didn't feel it would be "fair" for God to punish rebel sinners eternally. In other words desiring to be God and do His job. Hell is eternal as the church has always understood. This is why all the great exegetes of the Bible have so taught.
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton you’re funny!
@@davidlopez-flores1147 if I stab someone to death and from the moment of the attack until they die 7 minutes pass,should I only go to prison for 7 minutes? According to annihilationism that is the only "fair" thing to do.
I respect John MacArthur but these are the worst arguments against conditional immortality (the term I prefer over annihilationism and soul sleep because it is more accurate) I've ever heard. He seems to not understand it at all. I've never heard ANYONE use the arguments he claims they use.
First and foremost, the place to begin is the concept of the immortal, immaterial soul which leaves the body at death. That idea is completely foreign to both the Old and New Testaments. If we don't possess a soul (and we don't according to the Bible), then you don't have to put it anywhere when you die.
He also doesn't seem to understand that the lost are still resurrected and judged before being cast into the Lake of Fire. Tsk, tsk, Mr. MacArthur. Try doing some actual research before speaking authoritatively on this subject.
🤣😂😂😆🤣🤣😆😂 "we don't possess a soul according to the bible."
@@Michael_Chandler_Keaton We don't actually.
@@Mrm1985100 but isn't the word "soul" used interchangeably with "person" sometimes? (Like saying "15 souls" instead of "15 people")
@@theoddestautist exactly. According to Genesis 2:7 we are a living soul. That’s the standard definition of a soul: a living being. But the word “soul” can also have different meanings depending on its context. It can also mean life itself. For example when Jesus speaks about “forfeiting their soul” he’s not referring to some immortal soul inside your body you hand away, he’s referring to selling your *life* away. So soul can mean different things according to its context, but the standard definition of soul according to scripture is a living being. I am a soul. We are a soul.
You speak with so much pride. Tone it down and submit to God. Shalom
Matthew 25:46 -- "The [goats] will go away into eternal _(aionion)_ punishment, but the [sheep] into eternal _(aionion)_ life." The traditional argument: "Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionion)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionion)_ punishment must also be endless."
Christian universalist response -- Possibility #1:
(1) "Eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek word _aionion._ _Aionion_ almost always means "eonion" or "of an eon" or "of an age," just like it sounds. So in this particular verse, Jesus was only promising to the "sheep" life in the age to come -- not eternal life.
This is not the first understatement in the Bible. For example, the phrase "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" understates the number of people God is God of.
(2) This does not threaten eternal life for believers, because many other verses, which don't use _aionion,_ do promise eternal life:
(a) verses that include "immortality," "imperishable," "unfading" or "incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25, 15:42, 51-55, 2 Tim. 1:10, 1 Pet. 1:3-4,23, 5:4)
(b) Isa. 25:8, Hos. 13:14, Luke 20:36, John 6:37, Rom. 8:19-21, 38-39, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14, 21:4.
(3) In Matt. 25:46, the _aionion_ punishment for the "goats" is also temporary, per point (1).
(4) Therefore, the traditional argument is invalid. Life is eternal for the righteous "sheep" (Points 2a & 2b), while the Matt. 25:46 punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is temporary (Point 3).
MacArthur wants us to think that the Bible conveys a consistent message concerning an afterlife. It doesn’t.
It absolutely does. It's just that clowns like him, come up with such asinine NEW meanings of words, and all kinds of mental gymnastics to get the Bible to say what it DOESN'T say, that no wonder people get confused!
From the Beginning to end, the Bible is clear, the wicked are destroyed, perished, consumed, burned-up, no more, vanish, cease to exist, etc.
To God ALONE belongs immortality, WE don't put it on until the Resurrection AT Christ's return, the wicked of course never put it on, which is why they are harmed by the Second Death. Note it's ALWAYS contrasted as Eternal Life or Death(perished, destroyed, etc) Never EVER is it even hinted that the wicked are immortal or will become immortal.
Also, NOBODY is walking around up in heaven or suffering in the lake of fire now. The Bible is clear OVER AND OVER, we are raised up on the last day. The dead know nothing, their thoughts perish with them, love and hate are no more, etc. But after the millennial reign, those weren't raised up in the First resurrection face judgment, and the wicked are thrown into the lake of fire, which IS the second death. The first death is temporary for both the righteous and wicked, as we ALL eventually are raised up, but the second death is eternal, there is no resurrection from that.
No convincing at all. Very superficial analysis of the scriptures. Just forcing to align with his dogmatic convictions.
Then take a look at what Christianity has taught for literal centuries if this short video wasn’t enough.
@@Sting79 If that argument of teaching for centuries was a valid one, then we must conclude that paganism is true...?
Sting 79, trust me, it is not my intention to argue with you here, i used to think and believe exactly the same as you for more than 40 years of my life, but i discovered based on the Bible that i was wrong. God doesn't need to be cruel to be just. The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment, it is all a HUGE misunderstanding.
Exactly
@@augustosantiago6769 You sure? Cause I still hear and see a malevolent lying devil who PRIDES himself on torture and literally prefers it. You can't convince me otherwise.
Hell, I can quote him over and over and over. He is a malevolent, sadistic psychopath who COMPLETELY disregards his every creation, beyond what is necessary to make it suffer needlessly, while scapegoating any responsibility for said suffering.
I'm the only one who reads this for what it is. The rest of you seem to lack the capacity.
Christ paid for all the sins of humans for six hours. He suffered torment temporarily, then died. That's what I believe will happen to the unsaved. They will be tormented temporarily, then die, never to be alive again.
Yes, this is the Biblical view of hell. And it will happen at the final ressurection infront of everyone.
I'm confused is he arguing in favor of annihilationism here cuz it sounds like every example of the word destroyed that he mentioned means that thing that got destroyed is completely gone or dead
That was my thought?
So is God going to make the lost eat from the Tree of Life before He tortures them in “Hell” forever?
This guy doesn’t even believe in the resurrection from the dead. How can a person be resurrected from the dead if they’re not dead? If a person has an immortal “soul” (which is a pagan belief) then why the need for a resurrection?
So a loving father will burn his disobedient child for 100 trillion years. I wouldn't even do that to Hitler. No one asked to be born. What perverted Justice would be an eternal punishment for a life barely longer than the blink of God's eye ? When I punished my children with a timeout for a few hours, I longed to see them again. Knowing full well it was for their own good. God said, " From dust you came, and from dust you will return." It was Satan who said, " You shall not surely die." The wages of sin is death. Not an eternal burning conscious torment. Only Satan could conceive such a horrendous punishment.
You're only a child of God if you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord & Savior,"to as many as believed gave He power to become sons of God" , otherwise you're a creation of God & it has always been eternal torment, annihilation is a new thing, but even now Satan is trying to change you from being a creation of God with the mark of the beast(neuralink & other brain chips), prophecied in Isaiah 24 "they have broken the eternal covenant with God" & in more detail in the book of revelation chapters 13 & 14, God's word is true,if you haven't yet, accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior & let Him keep,guide & save you in these last days otherwise you won't make it.
@@Gman-j3eGod tells us to love our enemies though. If God was the most vengeful being in the universe why would he want us to have characters the opposite of his?
@@gareth2736 sin, God doesn't let the guilty go unpunished,if you die in your sin, you will face the great white throne judgement,if you accept Jesus Christ as Lord & Savior & keep His commandments,there is no condemnnation for you, God then applies Jesus' righteousness to you.
@@Gman-j3e you repeated some Christian doctrine without engaging with my question. Why does God want us to love our enemies rather than torturing them if we are meant to reflect his character?
@@gareth2736 Jesus came & did that "forgive them Father,they know not what they do" ,christians aswell, warning of God's wrath to come, once you are created in the image of God, you are an eternal soul, God loves you, He gives you light, food, family...etc many good things even though you refuse the no.1 gift of love, salvation through Jesus Christ, what must God do after your fleshly death? Must He let you come live in eternity with Him with your sinful God hatefulness? even though many times He has called you to free life in Jesus Christ & you willfully reject & refuse Him, God shows He loves His enemies daily,one day that love will be withdrawn, He is holy, righteous & just, stop hardening your heart.
Jesus gave a vivid description of the fate of the unsaved. He said, there will be "...weeping and gnashing of teeth" To weep is to mourn or be in a long state of sadness. The gnashing of teeth means to grind one's teeth in anger or regret. The tormented state of the unsaved that Jesus seems to describe is the result of unbelievers suffering the physical pain...or fire of Hell and their regretful decision of rejecting God's love by the sacrificial blood of Christ.
The lake of fire idea came from the apocryphal writings which were added by Hellenized Jews as the Septuagint was being written. They adapted the Greek version of Hades, where disembodied souls were deposited, or even resurrected bodies of the good and evil were deposited. They called their version of Hades " Abraham's Bosom." The Old Testament never mentions any lake of fire. Christ spoke of the lake of fire because he was speaking to Hellenized Jews who often spoke Greek (like the apostles) and had familiarity with such metaphors.
In the first 13 seconds he says annihilationism "is a trendy thing." Apparently he does not believe his Bible:
■ “For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” (Psalm 37:10)
■ “When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever” (Psalms 92:7)
■ “As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation” (Proverbs 10:25).
■ “Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?” (Job 20:4-7).
wages of sin is death not eternal torment which sounds like life to me. Very bad life but it's still life.
And the LordGod commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Yes Pastor MacArthur die and not burn in hell forever. I bet God would be very clear if that was the case... Eternal torment is medieval doctrine but kept alive very well
Annihilationism doesn't mean there is no torment or suffering. In many of the parables, some people get punished more than others and these parables signify what happens to you on the judgement day. If everyone were just annihilated as punishment with no torment at all, then one person couldn't be punished worse than the other as shown in the parables. It also states that certain cities will have it worse on judgement day than others. How can this be if they just cease to exist without punishment in between?
@@christianthinker2536 I never said there will be no torment. But will it be eternal conscious torment?
@@christianthinker2536 buddy the punishment of sin is DEATH that’s the punishment
@@Jim-yk1ugpeople don't want to believe that hell is a place of torment because they're scared of what God is going to do.
@@danielvega442God is love. Read attributes of love in 1 Cor. 13
I used to be a believer in eternal, conscious torment but after looking at the Bible all the way through I an no longer convinced. Eternal conscious torment was first found in the Apocrypha, between the NT and OT periods. The Greeks believed in an eternal soul that goes to Hades. The Hellenized Jews adopted that belief and replaced the Greek Charon with Abraham. But Adam was not created an eternal being in any way. Adam didnt have a separable soul either. He was not designed to live forever as he had to eat of the tree of life to live. Mac is wrong.
First and Foremost, in revelations we see something called “The Second Death” Revelation 21:8
What are the wages of sin? Death, 2 points, 1. if God only meant fleshly death, why are there 2 deaths? 2. If God only meant fleshly deaths are the wages of sin, why do us, born again, redeemed and saved believers die? Our punishment has been taken.
So clearly the second death is the true punishment of sin. How is suffering for eternity a death? I believe like our Justice system, hell is a prison, a place of darkness separated from God where weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the “undying worm” is your passion/desire, day and night (a long time but not eternity) without rest you are in spiritual turmoil. the lake of fire is the death sentence.
Secondly God said himself
Matthew 10:28 “fear not man who can destroy the body. But God who can destroy both the body and soul in hell”
But where is hell going in the end?
Revelation 20:14 “then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death”
We see mention of the lake of fire being the second death again, and why is hell and death being thrown there? Is it so they can suffer for eternity? No, it’s to destroy hell and death for good, so then the lake of fire is a fire that destroys? Are we to think our souls are so powerful they can withstand an eternal fire that destroys hell and death itself? Or maybe it’s conditional, it chooses to destroy hell but not the unsaved? The lake of fire is clearly a destructive force so there’s no reason to suspect it won’t also destroy satan and his followers when God can destroy both the soul and body as he SAID
God is fully capable of destroying people. It is not “unjust” it is not “unlike his character” in fact very much the opposite for both
Matthew 25:46 -- "The [goats] will go away into eternal _(aionion)_ punishment, but the [sheep] into eternal _(aionion)_ life." The traditional argument: "Since the Bible clearly teaches that eternal _(aionion)_ life is endless, it follows that eternal _(aionion)_ punishment must also be endless."
Christian universalist response -- Possibility #3:
Jesus meant in Matt. 25:46 what he meant in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." There, "eternal" _(aionion)_ means "spiritual" or "divine," and has no specified time frame.
Does time still exist after the just go to eternal life and the unjust to eternal destruction?
If its outside of time, could anihilation still happen?
Of course. How will we live forever if time doesn't exist?
Actually, the unjust will go to the lake of fire where they will be punished _and purified:_
FIRE PURIFIES
The Greek word for fire is _pur._
---------------
*BRIMSTONE (SULFUR) ALSO PURIFIES*
Pre-Roman civilizations used sulfur as a medicine, a fumigant, a bleaching agent and in incense.
The ancient Greeks used sulfur to fumigate, to purify, to cleanse and consecrate to the deity.
For example, in Homer's _Iliad,_ in Book 16, a goblet is purified with sulfur.
For example, in Homer's _Odyssey,_ in Book 22, we find: "Bring me sulfur, which cleanses all pollution, and fetch fire also that I may burn it, and purify the cloisters."
The Romans used sulfur as an insecticide, and to purify a sick room to cleanse its air of evil.
For millennia, gold has been refined with fire _and sulfur,_ because of its ideal chemical properties. ( ua-cam.com/video/4lHWv4zM7iA/v-deo.html )
---------------
The Old Testament has many refining metaphors: Deut. 4:20, 1 Kings 8:51, Psalms 12:6, 66:10, Prov. 17:3, 25:4, 27:21, Isa. 1:22-27, 48:10, Jer. 9:7, Zech. 13:9, *Mal. 3:2-3.* They should inform how we think about fire in the New Testament. Jesus even offered to sell gold refined by fire (Rev. 3:18). This shows that he too was thinking about refining on the day the book of Revelation, including its lake of fire, was born.
---------------
"But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For *he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.* He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and *he will purify* the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord." --Malachi 3:2-3
---------------
*Connecting the Dots: The metaphorical lake of fire will punish **_and refine (purify)_** the unrighteous. All will eventually be saved. God is love (1 John 4:8,16). Jesus is the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14, John 4:42). His mission was to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), and he never fails.*
*"...could annihilation still happen?"* Annihilation is what the Bible teaches . . . plainly and often . . . guitarbug.
✴ _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish_ [ "apollumi" - be utterly destroyed ] _but have everlasting life._ (John 3: 16; KJV)
So, God was joking when he said he would reconcile ALL things to himself?
I don't believe he was...Ultimate Reconciliation is the most hardest to accept because it shows nobody escapes judgement and God's grace extends farther than we know...which is hard for many of us who have a well developed Jonah muscle
Well said !
Universalism makes a mockery of justice.
@@ttownsupreme2183 As Alfred said of the Joker in The Dark Knight: "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
If you allow scripture to interpret scripture, and what I mean by that is you take the vision or the dream in its symbolic form and then you find in scripture where that symbolic form is defined then you are interpreting God's words by God's word.
I know few people who are doing this. I have found God’s definition for what he meant when he shows in a vision a beast thrown into fire. It's all in Daniel 7. In verse 11 we see the Vision of the beast thrown into the fire.
In verse 26 we are given the interpretation: that the empire which was represented by the beast loses its dominion and power and ceases to exist on the earth.
Daniel saw the same exact symbolic imagery as John in the revelation where we have a 7 headed beast introduced in chapter 13 and then at the end of chapter 19 that beast is thrown into the fire. The seven-headed beast was the Roman Empire. Does the Roman Empire still exist on the earth or has it ceased to exist in all its form?
Typically pompous. Guys like him get a thrill out of the idea of eternal punishment for the heathen.
agreed
Psalm 104:35
King James Version
35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord.
Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ezekiel 18:20
20 The one who sins is the one who will die.
Romans 6:23
King James Version
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:16
New International Version
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Revelation 20:14
King James Version
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Ezekiel 28:17-19
18
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.
Revelation 21:4
King James Version
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Thank you for those verses brother 🙏
I came here to hear a refutation of conditional immortality, and Jonny Mac’s attempt was a poor one. He said annihilationism “feels fair to the people who make a case for it.” This is simply false. The people I’ve watched on several podcasts make the case from the scriptures and not based on feelings.
If pastors really believed this, why would they risk eternal damnation to sin. I’m thinking of the likes of Jimmy Sweigart and Ted Haggart.
So glad John MacArthur's god isn't the real one
I agree
Remember this is the same guy who thinks the earth is 6000 years old
Interesting how Jesus uses references to the garbage disposal of His time. This may be offensive to some , but the unsaved are basically garbage to Him. I understand.
It was not a garbage dump. That legend came later.
@@marylamb6063 What?
I Am Now A Hopeful Christian Universalist, and We Hope for the Salvation of All even to those who are in hell for Universal Salvation, Let Us Pray to our Lord Jesus Christ by His Grace and Mercy For the Salvation of All Mankind By Jesus Christ Grace and Mercy for Salvation even to those who are in torment of fire, Even to those who Are Now in Torment of lake of Fire, God's Will is that All Shall Be Saved(1Timothy2:4)
( 2 peter3:9),
He is Our Creator and He Knows everything from the Beginning He Knows Even if the World has Not yet made and God is our Hope . God is Love and Gehenna and The Lake of Fire is REAL for Chastening and Purification to Remove The Sin of Each Person, GOD IS LOVE and MERCIFUL GOD IS LOVE HE DOES NOT TORTURE AND PUNISH HIS CREATION IN HELL FOR ETERNITY CATHOLIC CULT DOCTRINE AND REFORMERS PROESTANTS ARE THE ONES WHO DOCTRINATED AND TEACHES ETERNAL TORMENT LITERALY, AND ALSO LET US PRAY FOR THE SALVATION TO ALL MANKIND EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW IN TORMENT OF LAKE FIRE THE PURIFICATION AND CLEANSING FIRE AND LET US PRAY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL PEOPLE AND THOSE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE BY JESUS MERCY AND GRACE . BY GOD'S MERCY AND GRACE AMEN. GODBLESS
Ironic that there are more Bible verses that point to conditional immortality than there is determininism. But he has no problem believing that. The difference? Conditional immorality doesnt change the gospel, but Calvinism does. Making the world Jesus died for the "elect" only.
I have never heard a single bible scholar (until now) teach that annihilationism is sometimes referred to as "soul sleep". According to all I've read on the topic, soul sleep is the belief that when a person dies, their soul "sleeps: and is not conscious until the resurrection, when it will awaken. The doctrine of soul sleep comes from the bible's use of the euphemism "sleep" to refer to death. But the bible clearly teaches that for a follower of Christ, to be absent from the body in death, is to be present with the Lord, not asleep.
Is hell annihilation or torment ??
Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate.
He also believes Christians are elected and therefore all who aren’t chosen - so have no ability whatsoever to repent will suffer for eternity. Gosh!! This isn’t the God I love & worship
Unbelievers can't be tormented forever because unbelievers aren't going to live forever.
✴ _I am the living bread that came down from heaven. _*_IF . . . IF . . . IF_*_ anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever._ (John 6: 51, ESV)
If there were no second chances after death for salvation, Paul would have condemned all baptisms for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29.
More second chances:
THE DEAD HEAR THE GOSPEL AND LIVE -- "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may *live in the spirit* according to the will of God" (1 Peter 4:6). (Also see Psalm 68:18, Zech. 9:11-12, Matt. 12:29, Eph. 4:8-10.)
THE FORGIVABLE SINS -- "Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not ... either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:31-32). The wording strongly suggests that all sins except one, including blasphemies against Christ, will be forgiven in the next age if they're not forgiven in this age. (For the unforgivable sin -- Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit -- compare Matt. 12:32 with Eph. 2:7.)
UNTIL -- "I tell you the truth, you will not get out *until* you have paid the last penny." (Matt. 5:26).
WHO IS THIRSTY? -- "The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come'. And let the one who hears say, 'Come'. And let the one who is *thirsty* come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Rev. 22:17) The setting of Rev. 22:17 is the Rev. 21-22 new heaven and new earth, since the "water of life" is also mentioned in Rev. 21:6 & 22:1, and it's the Rev. 21-22 "Bride" who is speaking -- not the "church" or the "lampstands." But who are the thirsty ones? Who else is there? The thirsty ones must be those in the Lake of Fire, located outside the city gates (Rev. 22:14-15), which never close (Rev. 21:25).
SODOM RESTORED -- "I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them ... And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before" (Ezek. 16:53,55). In verses 47-55, the pronouns "their" and "they" identify the restored individuals as being those who were destroyed in Gen. 19 because of their abominations (Ezek. 16:50) and for other reasons (Ezek. 16:49). (Sorry to have to discuss peoples' pronouns ... lol ... but _these_ pronouns are critical to _this_ argument.) The restored people of Sodom will first need to be punished and purified in God's symbolic and refining Lake of Fire. ( ua-cam.com/video/4lHWv4zM7iA/v-deo.html )
DRY BONES LIVE -- "Then he said to me, `Son of man, these bones are the *whole* house of Israel. Behold they say, "Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off."' Therefore prophesy, and say to them, `Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves, O my people... And you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves, O my people. And I will put my spirit within you, and you shall live'" (Ezek. 37:11-14a).
BLINDINGS -- God has either directly caused, or permitted, various groups of people to be blinded to the truth (e.g. Mark 4:10-12, Rom. 11:25, 2 Cor. 4:3-4). This would seem to require an unblinded opportunity in the afterlife.
DEAFENING SILENCE -- The first 2/3 of the Bible is completely silent about Hell, and the last 1/3 uses the ambiguous-at-best Greek word _aion_ and its derivatives to describe Hell's duration. This makes no sense if (a) God is love, (b) eternal torment is true & (c) there are no second chances. There would have been clear and dire warnings on almost every page. For instance, why did Noah infinitely understate the penalty when he warned his neighbors only of a worldwide flood and not of irreversible eternal conscious torment?
EVENTUAL UNIVERSAL SALVATION EXPLICITLY TAUGHT -- See John 12:32, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2,17c, Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3. These verses, and many others like them, imply second chances for salvation after death.
What a horribly weak argument this man makes. A straw man argument, really. Clearly the bible teaches hell is horrible and will go on for very long times for many, but it is not eternal consciousness torment--however joyfully these Calvinists are married to painting God as cruel. No, sinners we're not permitted to eat from the Tree of Life and therefore are not eternal souls. Augustine brought that in from Greek philosophy when he converted to Roman Catholicism. Clearly this topic is beyond this man's ability.
Im a 4 point calvinist and im 99% convinced of conditional immortality. Dont paint with such broad strokes.
John (Jean) Calvin after all was originally a Roman Catholic.
LOL so his argument that God DESTROYING both body and soul in hell, is to use the fact that Destroy also means KILL or Perish, or drowning, so therefore having your soul DESTROYED means you live for eternity?!
Funny, how he can't come up with a scripture where destroyed means eternal life, but just in a bad place.
He's normally a very intelligent man, that I deeply respect, but when you see the illogical hoops these people jump through defend such a satanic doctrine that isn't ONCE mentioned in the Bible is stunning!
ALL throughout the scripture, the fate of the wicked is described as destroyed, perished, consumed, burned up, no more, vanished even CEASE TO EXIST, and of course death. Not ONCE is immortality ascribed to the wicked.
The comparison is ALWAYS eternal life OR death(perish, destroyed etc).
The Bible is clear, to Christ ALONE belongs immortality (1 Tim 6:16) and He gives that to us at the resurrection at His return. (1 Cor 15:52-54)
The Lake of Fire IS the second death. Death and Hades are ALSO thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed.
And the fact that the fire is eternal has nothing to do with how long it would take to consume anything; anymore than the fact that the sun has 4 BILLION years left to burn, means it would take it 4 BILLION years to consume a person.
Just how deplorably immoral and just plain evil do you have to be to WANT people to be eternally tormented. This man has a deeply sick mind!
AGREED
I agree
If Hell is real, why does the human spirit writhe under the horror of wars and prison camps, torture chambers and dictators? How can we judge these things as wrong, if Hell is real? After all, Hell far eclipses these earthly torments which came from the most sinful and beastly part of humanity. We say God is grieved by man's violence and disregard for life, and yet believe that He Himself enforces the same principles for all eternity!
Malachi 4:1 tells us what will happen to the unbeliever. AND I QUOTE - "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." If you believe that that unsaved live somewhere forever - you must believe that our souls are immortal. BUT THEY ARE NOT IMMORTAL. And only the souls of the saved ever become immortal.
John MacArthur is a rich man. He made it "spreading the word". With levin? Wolf?
The Bible says the smoke of there torment goes up forever.
Read the Book of Jude where Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed by an "eternal fire." Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today in this eternal fire that literally destroyed them? That is like telling someone a true story that never happened! After these cities were destroyed, the cities were never to be ever again and that is true. The everlasting or eternal punishment for these cities is a destruction where they will never be again. Sodom and Gomorrah were never rebuilt and never will be like so many other cities liken to the San Francisco earthquake, and yet we rebuilt San Francisco. The book of Jude tells us that these cities "serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." It is an eternal punishment, not an eternal punishing.....These cities are non existent and never will be again!
Isaiah says that the smoke of Edom will go up forever. Edom was east of Israel. It never burned and it is still not burning. Eternal fire and smoke symbolizes extermination. God destroyed Edom.
The lake of fire and hell are two different places. Remember, Hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire and it's called the second death. So then, eternal life is only give to God's elect, those who He saved by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ. So, how does this make sense? I'm genuinely wanting to know, I'm not trying to be snarky. I'm an annihilationist who was recently confronted with revelation 14 and I'm genuinely seeking the truth.
Hell and death will be consumed and become no more. Their existence will never return. Similar to a building burnt to ash. That building can never be returned. We could build another, but it would be a different building. Think of yourself before being born and conscious. God wants us to live forever.
the lake of fire is the "final judgement" where death and hell are all consumed that's annihilationism. So, hell is not eternal, but the judgement is.
@@marcusmuse4787then why it says they will be tormented forever and ever?
@@yourwifesboyfriend5785
Revelation is full of symbolic imagery. Forever and ever is a reference from Old Testament. It means for a long time. Also the beast devil and prophet will be there. Not people.
MacArthur has never been poor. His biblical scholarship shows it.
Your problem..good bye
It's a false question when you say is help temporary or eternal the punishment is eternal which is death.
I, a nobody, can refute each of the arguments layed out in this video by John, a theologian, to the satisfaction of any Bible believing rational human adult.
Makes sense.
You shall not SURELY DIE.....
Macarthur is demonic.