The Frieren Problem

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  • Опубліковано 10 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 106

  • @Espiritu_Analysis
    @Espiritu_Analysis  11 днів тому +9

    Minor Fix! I was reminded that Rheas Goblin Slayer trainer, is not a goblin, even though he kind of looks like one! Been a while since I read the LN's so minor mistake there, but all the points still stand haha!

  • @gunsmithcat7542
    @gunsmithcat7542 11 днів тому +36

    Imagine seeing a demon in Frieren and instantly thinking: THAT'S A JEW!
    I guess that says more about you than whoever wrote Frieren.

    • @tripesoup4404
      @tripesoup4404 11 днів тому +5

      What's wrong with that? Both demons and the "small hats" are sociopaths.

    • @aa-yt7wo
      @aa-yt7wo 11 днів тому

      Skaven from Warhammer Fantasy are a better comparison really

    • @gunsmithcat7542
      @gunsmithcat7542 11 днів тому

      @ yeah but I had to phrase it like that for the sake of the argument.

  • @chrisschultz8598
    @chrisschultz8598 11 днів тому +18

    It was refreshing to come across your perspective on the Frieren "problem.". I've always been frustrated by critics who get so involved in a piece of art that they start projecting things into the work that don't belong there. You've put your finger directly on that situation. Frieren is about learning to love and understand others and coming to terms with regret. The demons are there as adversaries to create conflict and move the story forward (and to appeal to the action anime audience.) That's it. If you want to analyze the demons' actions, they're psychopathic/sociopathic predators in the purest sense, lacking empathy, morality, or any other positive emotional trait. I doubt they even hate. They're just hungry opportunistic hunters. Why? Because that's what the writers needed to move their story forward. Thank you for this analysis. It was needed.

    • @thomaslacroix6011
      @thomaslacroix6011 11 днів тому +3

      I think it's also an exaggeration of a real world problem: there are nearly no humans that are as sociopathic as demons in your life. However, there are going to be humans so close to demons that you have to act as if they were. That sort of conflict does exist in real life.

  • @otakubullfrog1665
    @otakubullfrog1665 9 днів тому +3

    I think it probably doesn't help that so many other anime with human-looking demons just set them up as a misunderstood rival race that learns to coexist with humanity once they need to unite against a common threat or once the demon lord falls for a human girl who warms his heart or whatnot. That presentation of demons was probably meant to put a spin on the traditional idea of the pure evil demon, but has become as or more common than the trope it was intended to subvert.

  • @crunchyfrog1709
    @crunchyfrog1709 12 днів тому +22

    The demons are a society of sociopaths, basically.

    • @Espiritu_Analysis
      @Espiritu_Analysis  12 днів тому +6

      I say that about my X as well!

    • @edi9892
      @edi9892 11 днів тому +2

      Most sociopaths are functional members of society. The degree of their ability and desire to contribute to it vary, just as their degree of empathy. There are people who can't feel empathy, but still care about others to some degree. There are people who can only care about a select few they trust and have emotionally embraced into their tribe, so to speak. There's a huge spectrum

    • @marodonthemorone
      @marodonthemorone 11 днів тому +4

      no, they are a metaphor for biological determinism in the universe, you cannot grow wings no matter how much you want to, but in case of demons those are just particular emotions.

    • @NevisYsbryd
      @NevisYsbryd 11 днів тому +1

      What a horrible mischaracterization of antisocial personality disorder.

  • @damonsteine1185
    @damonsteine1185 11 днів тому +5

    I cant remember Frieren or Flamme seeing demons as evil: cunning predators, yes, evil...nah.

  • @AmirDarkOne
    @AmirDarkOne 12 днів тому +24

    unpopular opinion.
    goblins are just shota version of "ugly bastard"

  • @axiematches8897
    @axiematches8897 11 днів тому +5

    They can hate as much as they want but if an anime is really good, then the anime will gain more enjoyers than haters.

  • @chaossin7425
    @chaossin7425 12 днів тому +30

    Goblin Slayer was not trained by a goblin, his teacher was specifically stated to be a Rhea, the halfing/hobbit like species. Though he might be literally wearing a goblin skin mask to fuck with him.

    • @Espiritu_Analysis
      @Espiritu_Analysis  12 днів тому +4

      Been 6 years since I read the LN's, I just remember he worked with a half goblin thing, but still more of a joke at the fact goblins and demons and never seeing these same videos for Goblin Slayer haha

    • @zotaninoron3548
      @zotaninoron3548 11 днів тому

      @@Espiritu_Analysis Those videos existed at the time. Questioning the implications of Goblin Slayer's genocide and what it represents narratively. Of course Goblin Slayer also has/had less audience because its first episode was deeply alienating to many. So there were less people interested in dissecting the aspect of the show regarding incompatible existences.
      I would take exception to calling the demons inherently evil. At least anymore than a farmer is inherently evil to livestock. This isn't to justify them, though. They are incompatible and Freiren is properly entrusted to defend herself, her friends and her society from them. This also doesn't make the demons simple. They are complex creatures with multifaceted motives. Just not really empathy. With regard to the anime, the big question lingers about why demons are the way they are. There is obviously an unspoken agenda to yet reveal about their existence.

    • @Espiritu_Analysis
      @Espiritu_Analysis  11 днів тому +1

      zotaninoron3548 ur doing the very thing I said in the video, ur trying to make an analysis on something that does not need it.
      "I would take exception to calling the demons inherently evil. At least anymore than a farmer is inherently evil to livestock"
      This proves it, ur clearly trying to link Demons to Humans when it comes to live stock with animals... Which makes 0 sense, and does the very point I said.

    • @zotaninoron3548
      @zotaninoron3548 11 днів тому

      @@Espiritu_Analysis There is more in the heaven's and earth than is dreamt of by your philosophy.
      Thinking about about the nuances of character depth is not a flaw when it comes to Frieren. Demons in Frieren are not human. But there are comparable relationships you can draw. Humans to Demons are food whose suffering is sometimes deliberate and sometimes incidental. But they suffer all the same. Just like a livestock creature are for humans.
      Your insistence in being reductive is your own flaw. Not others.
      A lamb to the slaughter cannot reason with its killer.

    • @zotaninoron3548
      @zotaninoron3548 8 днів тому

      @@Espiritu_Analysis Would you also rebuke Flamme for describing Demons using the mantle of mana to display status the way humans use the mantle of wealth?
      A farmer's lamb cannot reason with the farmer any more than a human with a demon.
      To live freely one cannot be yoked by such an existential danger. In the world of Frieren, Demons are more akin to a force of nature. Calling them evil is reductive.

  • @Sgt_SealCluber
    @Sgt_SealCluber 11 днів тому +9

    I think it goes to show how good the story is, that people watching/reading it can be tricked into thinking there is more to the demons or they can be redeemed or at least coexisted with.
    For a moment watching the anime, I too was like "just maybe" even though Frieren and even the demons themselves were telling me otherwise.

  • @mestreweeaboo425
    @mestreweeaboo425 11 днів тому +7

    An analysis that was actually good is that the devils in Frieren are just simply natural predators with no concept of good or right, and they instead slughter humans out of pure instict or even weirder reasons like trying to understand other emotions and principles beside survival=good strength=good.
    Also, it was not a goblin that trained goblin slayer but a old rhea man with the appearence of a goblin

  • @markvicferrer
    @markvicferrer 11 днів тому +5

    Yes! The situation is just like Goblin Slayer. Let some things be evil for evil's sake. Not every enemy needs a backstory as how they became that way. Every series handles demons differently & the anime hammers it home twice in the same episode.

  • @LittleBabyBlue777
    @LittleBabyBlue777 11 днів тому +7

    The constant villain sympathy is concerning, tbh. We've gotten to a point where people try way too hard to justify a villain's awful deeds. You can pick out a lot of stuff that really started it...Many love to give all the credit to Joker, but I actually don't think he takes the credit for this mentality today. I actually feel like Breaking Bad is what helped to spawn this villain sympathizer mentality. It comes from people living too long in a negative atmosphere and while I understand you can't blame fiction/games for this, you CAN blame the people watching/playing it. Yes you can.
    Just look at how many people sympathized with Thanos, an actual psychopath playing God with the Infinity Stones and even straight-up wanting to commit full genocide of the whole universe simply because people, naturally, disagree with his psycho idea of 'making everyone more thankful'.....By destroying half of all life. Sure, Mr. Barney. Sure. I've yet to see a villain be written to really tackle this sort of just....Awful mentality where the villain's deemed 'heroic' all because people keep projecting their own personal misery into all works of art. It's really rather sick.
    The lengths people will go to to sympathize with ANY villain is worrying on its own but when it's THIS many people? Though, let's just be honest, this is the internet...I think people just have a fetish for watching a train crash and burn for their own petty amusement. This actually brings me back to the whole 'Corrupt the Cutie' trope, where people have developed a weird fetish for watching an adorable character be completely and utterly ripped apart mentally and physically. I guess you could just straight-up call all of it 'misery porn' at this point.
    Frieren's out here trying to deliver a hopeful message about moving on from grief and loss and people just keep trying to say she's a 'villain' for taking down a clearly malicious and incurable breed of monster that has one simple goal and that's to kill and destroy. It's like everyone's suddenly the Batman and thinks that killing's bad no matter what, even if the villain being killed off is a massive existential threat to every innocent person out there. This is why I've always been more of a Superman guy myself. Dude never said he'd never kill...He just simply prefers not to. If he has to, he will.
    TL;DR - People online need to quit acting like they've got a million degrees in psychology and apparently know the subject down to the very root when they're really just a clown dancing for the lols.
    I've only just recently gotten into this anime but thanks for talking like a normal human being and not another algorithm farming drone on UA-cam.

    • @justifiably_stupid4998
      @justifiably_stupid4998 11 днів тому

      To personify dolls, animals, and forces of nature is human nature.
      It was the weakness of humans in the story just as it is irl. We project ourselves onto everything around us.

  • @casidelbowen2675
    @casidelbowen2675 11 днів тому +7

    I like how you compared them to mimics. Although, Frieren likes mimics but she's obsessed with both.
    I find that an intriguing little character dynamic. And I think there really is more to talk about with Freiren, it's just that so many people like to make these profound sweeping statements all the time when the power of this anime in particular is discovered in the little moments and flashbacks and such. It's kinda frustrating...

  • @MagnumForce51
    @MagnumForce51 10 днів тому +3

    Another good comparison is Doomslayer from the Doom series. The demons shown there don't have much personality and are depicted as monsters and it's easy for everyone to understand that demons == bad == having to kill them all. Doomslayer certainly understands and spares no symphony and rips and tears and shows no mercy. Frieren is very much the Doomslayer of her world. Shows no mercy to any demons she lays eyes on. Though unlike Doomslayer she still able to interact with humans and such normally. Doomslayer isn't known for having much in the way of conversations and such. He's even more hyperfocused on killing demons then Frieren is. :P
    But I guess because the demons take on a human appearance and make an effort to pretend to be human like, that people start to start a fuss over it. Y'all realize that's exactly why the demons in Frieren pretend to act human and understand humans? So folks like you can come to the same delusion that some of them are good or could be taught how to be good? They take advantage of that. They do this precisely so there's discord and they can sneak in and prey on them while their guard is down. The "I can fix her" folks would be the first group they target. They wouldn't last very long in the Frieren world I would say. ;P
    There was one episode that clearly demonstrates this. I would guess half the folks complaining about this never watched the show and are just group think people who just like to join in with a group of people they feel are on the right side of the argument. No one capable of thinking for themselves these days. :(

    • @btchiaintkidding7837
      @btchiaintkidding7837 8 днів тому

      Frieren does kinda act less sad&stic.
      she offered qual a painless d&&th
      Offered Aura to back off and not proceed towards the city
      she even in a sense warned Draht that she was strong and that she was way outta Draht's league.
      it is not like she enjoys staring at their eyes as their soul leave their body and stuff etc. She could have easily w0ped the floor with Lugner and Linie by herself while reveking in its but she didnt do that rather just left upon Fern/Stark to do the job as she went for their leader which makes logical sense. So honestly in a sense she just sees these as pest control if anything and doesnt claim some grandiose moral superiority while doing so... etc

  • @jalbers3150
    @jalbers3150 9 днів тому +2

    This weird sympathy and compassion for evil is a symptom of the times we live in.
    People desperately want to believe everything is morally gray but at the same time deep down everyone is good, it’s just a matter of perspective is all.
    The reality is usually the opposite. Most things are pretty black and white. Good and evil exist.

  • @theboneman7379
    @theboneman7379 11 днів тому +4

    ive watched one of the videos you referenced here and id say thatt its not the points he brings up that are the problem. it's his attitude and tone both in and out of the video. and really that tends to be the problem with those types of videos to begin with. Their ego is usually the problem.

  • @hulmhochberg8129
    @hulmhochberg8129 10 днів тому +3

    I think people making this dumb analysis is the perfect example of why it makes evolutionary sense for demons to look like humans.
    For all we know the Looks and the ability to speak, (not even the baseline intelligence) is the difference between Lügner and the solar dragon Stark faced.
    But one is regarded as a monster, while the other is "misunderstood".

  • @Volnas97
    @Volnas97 9 днів тому +1

    I think it's pretty refreshing to have pure evil race/species. Not that I don't enjoy moraly complex villains, but sometimes simple is the way to go. The closest Demons in Frieren came to caring about each other was when Lugner was shocked that Linnie died, but even that was pretty shallow. Demons evolved from creatures, that learnt to mimic human cries for help to hunt them and I guess, that the creatures in one episode, that were using illusion magic to hunt their prey (I think it ws the one where they met Stark) are another of their ancestors, so they were always just hunters and destroyers, that use tricks to hunt their prey and the only reason there even is (or maybe was) demon "society" is that their prey became too powerful.
    Also I find it kinda funny, how people are defending demons and demonising Frieren, because those demons are using these exact methods to make people lower their guard around them, like that demon child, that was taken in by that nice family. It just shows, that those methods would and do actually work.

  • @E1337N3SS
    @E1337N3SS 11 днів тому +2

    I don't know if it's THE issue, but one issue people seem to lock in on is the fact that most characters in the story don't ever entertain the thought that the demons might not be purely emotionless monsters, because we as viewers clearly see them display emotions. I think its important to highlight that the capacity for emotion does not necessarily imply the capacity for ALL emotions, or more specifically empathy for other species. Plenty of predators love and raise their young, fear death and pain, and get frustrated at complexities and obstacles. This doesn't stop the lion from eating the gazelle. As far as the gazelle is concerned, that's the entire reason the lion even exists.
    We as an omnipresent entity outside the story see more information than any individual in the story, and must be careful to not impose our common sense upon the worlds we witness.

  • @mrm0nty550
    @mrm0nty550 10 днів тому +1

    I hate how all of these pseuds' brand of analysis is always "element in the story must be analogous to something irl", that's the most midwit type of literary analysis ever

  • @Sgt_SealCluber
    @Sgt_SealCluber 11 днів тому +2

    "There will be no manga spoilers." Shots Fired!!

  • @sagittariusseiya8310
    @sagittariusseiya8310 12 днів тому +4

    Frieren is a great character.

  • @warlordhax5995
    @warlordhax5995 12 днів тому +6

    Why you say feyren when its FRieren (ik its my prob but im losing your point when i get distracted and pulled away to just how wrong it sounds

    • @warlordhax5995
      @warlordhax5995 12 днів тому

      Plz understand anyone not hating im askin because there have been MANY name i was saying wrong without knowing so if this is the case again then ik moving forward ect

    • @Espiritu_Analysis
      @Espiritu_Analysis  12 днів тому +3

      Yah And people say the same thing when I say it that way, legit can't win...
      Next video I'll say it how u want and I'll get the same comment "OMG U said it wrong the whole time"...
      Welcome to been a youtuber haha.

    • @Espiritu_Analysis
      @Espiritu_Analysis  12 днів тому +1

      And DW I don't take it as hate, just funny because last video I said it that way, and I got the same comment from 2 people haha

    • @warlordhax5995
      @warlordhax5995 12 днів тому

      @Espiritu_Analysis figures 🤦‍♂️ yea you guys definitely don't get it easy with Fandoms period no matter what you say it'll piss off half the audience appreciate the response only leaving it up because more comments still helps last I heard

    • @Espiritu_Analysis
      @Espiritu_Analysis  12 днів тому

      Some times I would say it both ways, but it drops out the video more if I'm saying two names all the time after each other haha

  • @justifiably_stupid4998
    @justifiably_stupid4998 11 днів тому

    They didn't say explicitly in the story, but the reason why the demon king started a war against the humans is because he foresaw his own death and wanted to avoid it.
    He had access to every conceivable future, but never perceived Frieren in order to confront her. She remained invisible to him for 900 years, until they were face-to-face. I wouldn't call that pure evil, just survival instincts. His hunting parties targeted elven villages and heroes which is also why Frieren succeeded. She was partied with a fake hero, after all.

  • @SolracNexus
    @SolracNexus 9 днів тому +1

    I just find it funny that a guy from discord attacked frieren for demonizing "jews". But after israel went to war with hamas, the dude literally attacked jews and calling them demons 😂

  • @nathanmcclung3564
    @nathanmcclung3564 11 днів тому +2

    My main problem is that people try to say that frieren's hatred for demons is somewhat related to racism. It is a stupid stance for some political nonsense. That said I feel like a lot of these people are not just doing it for clicks but more on the field of I want to be the guy or girl that finds some hidden message in the show. I have noticed some are way to pushy for the "Oh if you notice in this scene she does this or that" and tries to point out that it was do to something else when well hey are taking a small detail and running way too far with it.

  • @broodo1
    @broodo1 11 днів тому +1

    When you said "content creators will make the video around the title, instead of the title around the video" I immediately thought of (ABD) Anime Balls Deep & AnimeUproar. Their titles are strictly clickbait & I personally have gotten so fed up with them I unsubscribed last year.
    I have no idea if they cover Frieren, but that of your really resonated with me.

  • @spacedoohicky
    @spacedoohicky 10 днів тому

    Maybe this is just another way of saying that bad thinkers make bad analysis. The same is true of critics. Siskel, and Ebert made a dumb review of The Thing, and some years later Ebert changed his mind. Not much has changed since then regarding analysis.

  • @TheArtoriusBx
    @TheArtoriusBx 11 днів тому

    Just a friendly correction. Goblin Slayer's master is a Rheas. But he is old and ugly, it is easy to confuse him.

  • @Marcus-rg7bg
    @Marcus-rg7bg 11 днів тому

    Its a collar. That cross. I wont wear it. They trained us. Mad at them rn. And bothered those pure girls.

  • @fanboy4382
    @fanboy4382 11 днів тому

    I love Frieren elves. They finally break the Tolkien sterotype.

    • @jacobpousland8046
      @jacobpousland8046 11 днів тому +5

      They absolutely do not. If anything, they're a return to form, hearkening back to what Tolkien's elves are actually like without decades of pop culture built around them.

    • @Yurinkin
      @Yurinkin 11 днів тому

      Yup 👍

    • @fanboy4382
      @fanboy4382 11 днів тому +1

      @@jacobpousland8046 Serie, Frieren, and Krafter are all elves that are willing to interact with humans and don't view themsleves as superior simply because of their race. Frieren herself who waa razed by an elfen village, didn't judge her master the first time them met simply because she was human. Contrast this with elves in Danmatchi, who are isolationish and view themselves as superior to human.

    • @yucinalo
      @yucinalo 11 днів тому +2

      @@fanboy4382 Serie was extremely skeptical about teaching humans, and only did it occasionally on a "whim" until very recently in the story. She assumed most humans are too talentless to be worth teaching magic to. She did however recognize that humanity would propel forward over time. Frieren practically lived in isolation for a thousand years. She didn't understand nor know how to interact with humans. Kraft has statues of him everywhere, yet no one recognizes his statues, which would imply that he very rarely interacts with humans and almost never tells anyone who he is, otherwise at the very least people would recognize the statues as "the elf that wanders around". The remaining few elves are kinda forced to interact with humans occasionally because... well there's no one else, from what we can tell all the elves except few are dead. Hard to view your society as superior when your society has been dead and buried for a thousand years.

  • @Marcus-rg7bg
    @Marcus-rg7bg 11 днів тому

    Take what ive learned from them and move on. Knowing more of what i am now. And what they are. Back to bushes. Leave me alone. I feel shes ok. Dont shave my butt.

  • @zarkeh3013
    @zarkeh3013 11 днів тому

    huh, I thought "Frieren the Slayer" was enough to say She is like them in a way. Like Goblin Slayer is a Slayer of... . What is important is uhm, the morals. the why. For Co-Op vs PvP modes. For the Self or For the Greater Good. Evil vs Good.

  • @MarcHarder
    @MarcHarder 11 днів тому +1

    free ren, not fray ren

  • @eddir4530
    @eddir4530 10 днів тому +2

    you can say that the demon's are just evil but it is hard to ignore when the writer tries to say that there could be more to them but then pull back and say no they are just evil but then hint again that they could be more.
    just so annoying, stop trying to hint at something deeper if they are just evil and nothing more.

  • @juanescobedo6156
    @juanescobedo6156 11 днів тому

    no new shield hero season 4 and i like frieren

  • @RobinFromAshes
    @RobinFromAshes 11 днів тому

    I have an issue with this video: the way you are pronouncing Frieren I keep hearing Faerun...

  • @Neuviletteiudexofmemes
    @Neuviletteiudexofmemes 11 днів тому +3

    Demons are clearly supposed to be a narrative contrast to Frieren (who herself represents people on the spectrum.)
    Frieren is externally emotionally challenged, and has difficulty understanding the emotions of those around her, but inside she strongly loves and cares for others even if she shows it in atypical ways.
    Demons in contrast are the reverse. They are able to put up the front that she cannot, demonstrating outward emotion, and reading human emotions accurately, but inside there’s nothing there.
    Now the author made the mistake of giving them a sense of arrogance and pride, which fundamentally a person cannot have developed unless they have some form potential for moral grounding, but that’s more a misunderstanding on how brains work then a true error in the writing.

    • @snowfox94
      @snowfox94 11 днів тому +1

      Lmfao did Kanehito Yamada claim she's supposed to represent people on the spectrum?

    • @solarydays
      @solarydays 11 днів тому +1

      immoral people can't be arrogant and proud? lol the less empathy you have the more arrogant you will be

    • @Neuviletteiudexofmemes
      @Neuviletteiudexofmemes 11 днів тому

      @@solarydays Indeed, but the development of arrogance suggests a species has the capability of developing a moral grounding and empathy. They come from the same internal instinct within the brain; The Brain’s constant need to self validate and “be correct”.
      “Arrogance” is just a malformed result of that same fundamental instinct, so if a species can be arrogant, it could also be raised to be moral and empathetic.

    • @Neuviletteiudexofmemes
      @Neuviletteiudexofmemes 11 днів тому

      @@snowfox94 Not that I’m aware of, but the coding and themes seemed obvious. If it’s NOT intentional, the traits themselves still make for a clear and well constructed thematic contrast, though.
      At the very least I would be surprised to find that they created such a splendid metaphor for the experience of being on the spectrum by sheer coincidence, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

    • @solarydays
      @solarydays 11 днів тому +1

      @@Neuviletteiudexofmemes let me guess, you learned socializing through the internet

  • @danielellis6327
    @danielellis6327 12 днів тому +2

    the demon writing is just plain ass like in the forest in the flashback it's said that demons have a lot of pride in themselves, but we see later on that demon child who was killed by Frieren just telling her the nature of the demons when there is no possible reason for it, she should not be telling her anything as she dies

    • @Yurinkin
      @Yurinkin 11 днів тому

      Yeah

    • @plantcrone9662
      @plantcrone9662 11 днів тому

      bad example, it's not like demons are born with pride.

    • @danielellis6327
      @danielellis6327 10 днів тому

      ​@@plantcrone9662 fair enough

    • @trixter018
      @trixter018 9 днів тому +1

      It's only pride with their magic.Lugner in episode 9 and Flamme in episode 10, explained this somehow. Outside of that, it's just part of their nature to deceive and manipulate humans.