Can't believe I didn't mention in the video 🤦🏾♂️ 30% is the max +/- the car can adjust. If you hit that wall then you run the risk of leaning out or running too rich.
@@kern417 its all good no worries, I was thinking it would eventually go lean but didn’t know what the max trims were. I’m new to closed loop fueling under wot, I’m used to dealing with open loop under wot so thanks for the clarification 👍
Hello Kern. I've been doing Water meth injection over 10 years and have run it on several cars of my own, and tons of customer cars. So I'm sorta qualified to share some experience here. I'm really opposed to running 100% water before the intercooler. For the majority of users out there some methanol in the mix is recommended. The reason for the meth is not for fuelling or "octane", but for distribution. Let me explain why. Pure water tends to flash to steam right off the turbo but then condensates into larger droplets by the time it exits the intercooler. This is because the intercooler is still doing its job and cools anything that passes through it. These larger droplets have increased "inertia", and find it harder to distribute equally into the manifold runners. If exit temps at the intercooler is about 45C, for instance, at sea level pressures water will boil at 100C, but will start to vaporize/evaporate at much cooler temps. The 45C would be ok but there is boost in these pipes so it is harder to vaporize as is expected with an increase in pressure ( Raoult's Law ). Volute injection (of the turbo) works lovely when the mixture has a high methanol percentage, even if there is an intercooler. The W/Meth droplets are smaller and are distributed more evenly into each runner. There is however 1 exception. For systems with intercoolers like the B58 the runners are spread out over the intercooler and as such distribution is less of a concern. Also, I'd be comfortable running methanol if the fuel trims are working correctly. It's actually doing what it supposed to do I believe - Pulling fuel for the decreased detected lambda. The best approach for this, of course, is to get it custom tuned, or, run just enough meth to stay at 25% trims. Also, please join our fb WM group at called "water methanol injection". We welcome anyone with experience to share and debate setups/experiments.
Thanks, I learned something new about meth today, started following you a few months back and I have to say great content. Can confirm in Europe ethanol is really hard to get and is not common at all and most prefer using large quantities of meth which ends up blowing their engines. I drive an n54 can't wait to get my hands on a b58
Thanks soooo much for being you cuz you're awesome!! I live in a cold climate (colorado) so i'm pretty sure i'm gonna hafta have some methanol in it or else it's gonna be a solid block of ice... what's the lowest amount of methanol you recommend so it's as close to just water for the cooling effect?? will that low amount affect the fuel delivery in an adverse way?? thanks again man!! truly 'preciate ya!!
Awesome channel I’ve learned a lot. However, I have a much older chassis. lots of your information is effective in the newer vehicles. Currently my street car is an SUV. I own a e70 X5, N55. I’ve been running a PS2 turbo, air to air Wagner intercooler, precision Race works coil packs for a couple of years now with Stock high-pressure and low pressure fuel pumps (I have no desire to run port injection due to complexity, I’m interested in keeping it simple ) I’ve known for quite some time Water injection is affective. commonly used in the 80s in the 90s turbo cars….yes im that old lol. I thought about water / methanol in the past but have not been motivated to move forward on it. Until watching your informative Episode (you cannot only spray methanol). The way you presented the information is fantastic. Now I’m motivated to do water injection. not because I have a desire to run an incredible amount of boost. I want to improve reliability And longevity. what’s your opinion on using water injection on early n55. Any information would be greatly appreciated Thank you.
You have a unique opportunity, because you have an intercooler doing a lot of the work. Then there is a long charge pipe where you can spray water to futher cool down the air. This is the best of both worlds. On the B58, the intercooler is mounted directly on the cylinder head so the best you can do is spray some water to "pre-cool" IATs so the intercooler has less work to do. I also have an E70 but it's an earlier N52. Definitely jealous of your torque. The car is quite a slouch without it.
I was wondering if i’m running about 450hp on my 340i xdrive would pistons be a concern? i’m new to the platform. I been watching your videos for about a week now and I don’t regret stumbling across your channel.
What about running 50/50 meth water for a stock n/a coyote 5.0 motor, solely for the purpose of keeping the valves clean? Running e85 gunked up my valves real bad. Edit: awesome video and great job explaining everything!
Here is an old corvette forum and Julio from Alky controls explains 100% meth vs water meth. Personally I use 100% meth and would never use water. Here is the explanation: The first is temperature. Water has a flash of 180 df. methanol flashes at 70 df(degree's farenheit) So if the air coming across the nozzle does not have enough temperature to flash the liquid, the liquid being shot it is carried to the back of the intake manifold and uneven distribution is what happens next. Meaning the rear cylinders get liquid and the fronts dont. The analogy I use is brake cleaner. If you get a hot rotor and shoot brake cleaner on it.. it disappears immediately. If you shoot water.. it stays wet. So every PSI is approx 11 df. at 10 PSi your at 110+ambient. If its 30 degree's outside, you run 10 PSI=140.. enough for 50/50 mix to work. Not enough temp for water as it needs 180 df. Now what happens is you have 50/50 mix.. and run an IC.. now you spray into air that has been cooled.. doesnt disperse correctly.. and whalla.. tuning problem. Problem magnifies itself as you crank up the volume shot in. So this is why straight meth is typically used.. as its easy to make 70 degree's.. and keeps from distribution problems. Next problem.. as the water volume increases, the nozzles go down in size, and the pressure goes up. As the liquid has to be broken up as finely as possible. So it has a chance of disbursing into the air properly. So nozzles used with water injection are like M1=1 gph at 100 PSI, nozzles used with meth M15=15 GPH as you can crank it in and get results. Water injection works.. as does water/methanol.. as does straight methanol. A lot has to do with the strategy of what your working with temperature wise and what your goals are. For just cooling.. use straight water, mix, straight meth. But understand the IAT the engine is dealing with to choose your fluid. Lastly.. water leans out the motor as it takes up space in the combustion chamber. meth richens it out. Mix still richens.. but then we get the flip flop of temp and goal. Vette's in the grand scheme of things run lower IAT's becuase of boost pressures run. Some start running out of fuel system.. some have bad octane like Cali 91.. some dont like constantly retuning becuase outside air temps changed.. This is why straight meth rocks on them. The only down side to straight meth is that its harder on the pump and the system has to be setup for it.
Hey kern, I have a f90 I’m currently building. And I’m looking into some type of injection. Looking for more boost gains, hoping cooling will come with upgraded intercoolers. I’ve been stuck on this for awhile to go wmi or not
Hey @kern417 I have a f90 I’m currently building. And I’m looking into some type of injection. Looking for more boost gains, hoping cooling will come with upgraded intercoolers. Live in upstate ny summers can be hot and cold lol I’ve been stuck on this for awhile to go wmi or not
Is there any benefit to running cpi wmi with the JB4? Same goal, cooling not fueling. Have the whole kit just been iffy about routing thru the jb4 only for a better tuning solution to release for post 6/20.
Quick question. Let say i run E50 mixed and i use like OTS bootmod3 and if i want to switch back to like a 91 octane ots. At what point of E50 level in the tank that i can top it off with 91 and safety use the 91 octane ots. Thanks
Run the tank down to below 50mi to empty, fill up with 91, then flash the 91 tune. It should drop ethanol content after the first few miles of driving.
I agree with 95% of this video except for the running 100% water. Based on my testing on boosted ford stuff (different platform I know but ecu trims fuel the same) you want to target roughly 10-15% of total fuel needed at wot for your water/meth injection. I've found that this % provides the benefits of the cooling and increased octane of the fuel being burned while bring a low enough % that the ECU can still trim fuel to target lambda AFR. In my testing I saw a 20hp Increase with a 70/30 meth/water injection with no additional timing. So I think spraying a 50/50 or 70/30 mixture is great as long as the nozzle is appropriately size for the fuel consumption demands of the setup.
You just said that the car needs to adjust trims for the additional fuel, which means exactly what I said is true. If you only want cooling then you spray water.
@kern417 I was commenting more so on spaying a mix in general. The ecu will trim for all change in conditions. If you go make a hit in really cold air the ecu will add more fuel for better air. You absolutely can spay water meth for only cooling purposes. If you aren't relying on the meth for fueling shortages or to force more timing into the map, then spraying the water/meth is solely for the cooling. Even if you just sprayed water the ecu would have to trim more fuel in from the denser air.
@@TeViiNz the video title states you cannot just spray meth for cooling, and as I said you can't. It will always affect fueling, and if you have a manifold like what's described in the video it can cause uneven fuel distribution that causes lean cylinders that can fail. If you only want to add cooling without changing fueling, the only viable option is water injection. Period.
@@TeViiNz and the DME has baseline fueling based on fuel mass calculated from intake temperatures. Water injection cooling IATs is not the same as unmetered fuel coming in from meth nozzles that aren't accounted for in the tune.
@kern417 yes dme calculates fuel needs based on air mass. Spraying just water lowers air Temps which increase air mass. If water is sprayed post maf sensor as it should then the maf is metering X mass of air however the engine is actually ingesting Y mass of air due to the cooler temps which would require more fueling from the DI injectors which the dme would adjust for. Spraying anything through the intake track will cause changes in fueling. Secondly if you have a properly sized and placed nozzle for your setup, the injected liquid would be fully atomized prior to entering the intake manifold. If you get to the point to where you are having drastically unequal fueling mixtures across cylinders from meth injection you are spraying too much from a single nozzle for your setup. I'm not arguing that spraying meth won't change fueling demands as it will. Simply stating that as long as your tune isn't dependent on the additional fuel or additional fuel quality for the timing requested, then you definitely can run a small water/meth mixture for cooling purposes.
Hey bro I have the BMS chargepipe with built in ports for WMI. I am planning to go HPFP and turbo route rather than port. Since data shows heat exchanger upgrade doesn’t improve IATs much, I’d rather spend that money on something more efficient. Do you think solely water injection is the best bet for my M340 (that will be controlled by a HOBB switch.) I already have intake upgrade as well. So water injection instead of heat exchanger? Or is heat exchanger not really worth it lol. Just want your input brotha
@@kern417 So is there a risk to the sensors spraying water pre sensor? I'm planning on using the fuel it charge pipe spacer to make sure I have the least risk possible of getting water into the engine
Nice video, you couldn’t be more up to date with my built👍 Would a good custom tune works with CP WMI or i should stay with water only? Thanks for that subject🙌
@@kern417 gotcha so I should only consider water for cooling. I found it interesting ESS sells their new g1 kits "meth ready" but dont tune for it and your video confirms my assumptions
@@andrewrossnagel9433 yes if you want to tune for it, at least i recommend running the tune slightly rich so even the leanest cylinder is running at a safe afr
Hey Kern, is it possible to use port injection for 100% meth and CPI for water injection to help cooling together ? Have you seen both systems run together with a custom tune ?
You have it backwards. Methanol does the majority of charge air cooling because it evaporates more easily. Water does the cooling in the combustion chamber. It takes the higher heat of the combustion chamber to change the state of water from liquid to gas. The change of state absorbs the heat.
I run meth. Have NEVER tuned to it ever..... Make a 1000 whp on 93 octane with meth with my Turbo Mustang. With E85 its just dumb cause E85 cools the fuel even more.
What’s the downside of the negative fuel trims if your going to stick to meth and water mix for every day use?
Can't believe I didn't mention in the video 🤦🏾♂️
30% is the max +/- the car can adjust. If you hit that wall then you run the risk of leaning out or running too rich.
@@kern417 its all good no worries, I was thinking it would eventually go lean but didn’t know what the max trims were. I’m new to closed loop fueling under wot, I’m used to dealing with open loop under wot so thanks for the clarification 👍
Hello Kern.
I've been doing Water meth injection over 10 years and have run it on several cars of my own, and tons of customer cars. So I'm sorta qualified to share some experience here.
I'm really opposed to running 100% water before the intercooler.
For the majority of users out there some methanol in the mix is recommended. The reason for the meth is not for fuelling or "octane", but for distribution. Let me explain why.
Pure water tends to flash to steam right off the turbo but then condensates into larger droplets by the time it exits the intercooler. This is because the intercooler is still doing its job and cools anything that passes through it. These larger droplets have increased "inertia", and find it harder to distribute equally into the manifold runners.
If exit temps at the intercooler is about 45C, for instance, at sea level pressures water will boil at 100C, but will start to vaporize/evaporate at much cooler temps. The 45C would be ok but there is boost in these pipes so it is harder to vaporize as is expected with an increase in pressure ( Raoult's Law ).
Volute injection (of the turbo) works lovely when the mixture has a high methanol percentage, even if there is an intercooler. The W/Meth droplets are smaller and are distributed more evenly into each runner.
There is however 1 exception. For systems with intercoolers like the B58 the runners are spread out over the intercooler and as such distribution is less of a concern.
Also, I'd be comfortable running methanol if the fuel trims are working correctly. It's actually doing what it supposed to do I believe - Pulling fuel for the decreased detected lambda.
The best approach for this, of course, is to get it custom tuned, or, run just enough meth to stay at 25% trims.
Also, please join our fb WM group at called "water methanol injection". We welcome anyone with experience to share and debate setups/experiments.
Thanks, I learned something new about meth today, started following you a few months back and I have to say great content. Can confirm in Europe ethanol is really hard to get and is not common at all and most prefer using large quantities of meth which ends up blowing their engines. I drive an n54 can't wait to get my hands on a b58
Thank you. The best video for me so far.
Good video great advice appreciate it
Tittles accurate and I haven’t even watched the video
This comment 1000x better than people that say I'm wrong without watching the video 😅
Thanks soooo much for being you cuz you're awesome!! I live in a cold climate (colorado) so i'm pretty sure i'm gonna hafta have some methanol in it or else it's gonna be a solid block of ice... what's the lowest amount of methanol you recommend so it's as close to just water for the cooling effect?? will that low amount affect the fuel delivery in an adverse way?? thanks again man!! truly 'preciate ya!!
Awesome channel I’ve learned a lot. However, I have a much older chassis. lots of your information is effective in the newer vehicles. Currently my street car is an SUV. I own a e70 X5, N55. I’ve been running a PS2 turbo, air to air Wagner intercooler, precision Race works coil packs for a couple of years now with Stock high-pressure and low pressure fuel pumps (I have no desire to run port injection due to complexity, I’m interested in keeping it simple ) I’ve known for quite some time Water injection is affective. commonly used in the 80s in the 90s turbo cars….yes im that old lol. I thought about water / methanol in the past but have not been motivated to move forward on it. Until watching your informative Episode (you cannot only spray methanol). The way you presented the information is fantastic. Now I’m motivated to do water injection. not because I have a desire to run an incredible amount of boost. I want to improve reliability And longevity. what’s your opinion on using water injection on early n55. Any information would be greatly appreciated Thank you.
You have a unique opportunity, because you have an intercooler doing a lot of the work. Then there is a long charge pipe where you can spray water to futher cool down the air. This is the best of both worlds.
On the B58, the intercooler is mounted directly on the cylinder head so the best you can do is spray some water to "pre-cool" IATs so the intercooler has less work to do.
I also have an E70 but it's an earlier N52. Definitely jealous of your torque. The car is quite a slouch without it.
Hi Kern, what water only injection kit do you recomend? The BMS one sprays at the throttle plate I was hoping to spray before that!
I was wondering if i’m running about 450hp on my 340i xdrive would pistons be a concern? i’m new to the platform. I been watching your videos for about a week now and I don’t regret stumbling across your channel.
No
Cant wait to get my b58 😊
What about running 50/50 meth water for a stock n/a coyote 5.0 motor, solely for the purpose of keeping the valves clean? Running e85 gunked up my valves real bad.
Edit: awesome video and great job explaining everything!
Bad tuner get lund tuned
Don’t go with prometh’s solid stainless lines they leak, boils the mix, and will need to be removed if you need room to wrench.
I’ve been using water meth and I’m tuned by Steven at wedge. Im also at a hot place so that’s why I went with water/meth
What about a turbo car thats runing 12 afr and you want to lower it to the 11 or 11.5 with the meth injection with different nozzle sizes?
Here is an old corvette forum and Julio from Alky controls explains 100% meth vs water meth. Personally I use 100% meth and would never use water. Here is the explanation:
The first is temperature. Water has a flash of 180 df. methanol flashes at 70 df(degree's farenheit) So if the air coming across the nozzle does not have enough temperature to flash the liquid, the liquid being shot it is carried to the back of the intake manifold and uneven distribution is what happens next. Meaning the rear cylinders get liquid and the fronts dont.
The analogy I use is brake cleaner. If you get a hot rotor and shoot brake cleaner on it.. it disappears immediately. If you shoot water.. it stays wet.
So every PSI is approx 11 df. at 10 PSi your at 110+ambient. If its 30 degree's outside, you run 10 PSI=140.. enough for 50/50 mix to work. Not enough temp for water as it needs 180 df.
Now what happens is you have 50/50 mix.. and run an IC.. now you spray into air that has been cooled.. doesnt disperse correctly.. and whalla.. tuning problem. Problem magnifies itself as you crank up the volume shot in.
So this is why straight meth is typically used.. as its easy to make 70 degree's.. and keeps from distribution problems.
Next problem.. as the water volume increases, the nozzles go down in size, and the pressure goes up. As the liquid has to be broken up as finely as possible. So it has a chance of disbursing into the air properly.
So nozzles used with water injection are like M1=1 gph at 100 PSI, nozzles used with meth M15=15 GPH as you can crank it in and get results.
Water injection works.. as does water/methanol.. as does straight methanol. A lot has to do with the strategy of what your working with temperature wise and what your goals are. For just cooling.. use straight water, mix, straight meth. But understand the IAT the engine is dealing with to choose your fluid.
Lastly.. water leans out the motor as it takes up space in the combustion chamber. meth richens it out. Mix still richens.. but then we get the flip flop of temp and goal.
Vette's in the grand scheme of things run lower IAT's becuase of boost pressures run. Some start running out of fuel system.. some have bad octane like Cali 91.. some dont like constantly retuning becuase outside air temps changed.. This is why straight meth rocks on them. The only down side to straight meth is that its harder on the pump and the system has to be setup for it.
I literally installed my meth kit on my ms3 1 week ago using 30-40%meth and the rest water so this is going to be helpful
Hey kern, I have a f90 I’m currently building. And I’m looking into some type of injection. Looking for more boost gains, hoping cooling will come with upgraded intercoolers. I’ve been stuck on this for awhile to go wmi or not
Hey @kern417 I have a f90 I’m currently building. And I’m looking into some type of injection. Looking for more boost gains, hoping cooling will come with upgraded intercoolers. Live in upstate ny summers can be hot and cold lol I’ve been stuck on this for awhile to go wmi or not
Is there any benefit to running cpi wmi with the JB4? Same goal, cooling not fueling. Have the whole kit just been iffy about routing thru the jb4 only for a better tuning solution to release for post 6/20.
Chose your goal first, then build the car around your goals
Quick question. Let say i run E50 mixed and i use like OTS bootmod3 and if i want to switch back to like a 91 octane ots. At what point of E50 level in the tank that i can top it off with 91 and safety use the 91 octane ots. Thanks
Run the tank down to below 50mi to empty, fill up with 91, then flash the 91 tune. It should drop ethanol content after the first few miles of driving.
Isn’t there issues associated with cylinder 6 using charge pipe meth? Cylinder 6 getting the weakest amount of draw and possibly leaning out?
Yes
Is there a kit that exists for water injection primarily?
Someone could label a kit for "water" it's going to be the same a pump, tank, hoses, and nozzle, maybe map controller if it's fancy.
Super interesting
I agree with 95% of this video except for the running 100% water. Based on my testing on boosted ford stuff (different platform I know but ecu trims fuel the same) you want to target roughly 10-15% of total fuel needed at wot for your water/meth injection. I've found that this % provides the benefits of the cooling and increased octane of the fuel being burned while bring a low enough % that the ECU can still trim fuel to target lambda AFR. In my testing I saw a 20hp Increase with a 70/30 meth/water injection with no additional timing. So I think spraying a 50/50 or 70/30 mixture is great as long as the nozzle is appropriately size for the fuel consumption demands of the setup.
You just said that the car needs to adjust trims for the additional fuel, which means exactly what I said is true. If you only want cooling then you spray water.
@kern417 I was commenting more so on spaying a mix in general. The ecu will trim for all change in conditions. If you go make a hit in really cold air the ecu will add more fuel for better air. You absolutely can spay water meth for only cooling purposes. If you aren't relying on the meth for fueling shortages or to force more timing into the map, then spraying the water/meth is solely for the cooling. Even if you just sprayed water the ecu would have to trim more fuel in from the denser air.
@@TeViiNz the video title states you cannot just spray meth for cooling, and as I said you can't. It will always affect fueling, and if you have a manifold like what's described in the video it can cause uneven fuel distribution that causes lean cylinders that can fail. If you only want to add cooling without changing fueling, the only viable option is water injection. Period.
@@TeViiNz and the DME has baseline fueling based on fuel mass calculated from intake temperatures. Water injection cooling IATs is not the same as unmetered fuel coming in from meth nozzles that aren't accounted for in the tune.
@kern417 yes dme calculates fuel needs based on air mass. Spraying just water lowers air Temps which increase air mass. If water is sprayed post maf sensor as it should then the maf is metering X mass of air however the engine is actually ingesting Y mass of air due to the cooler temps which would require more fueling from the DI injectors which the dme would adjust for. Spraying anything through the intake track will cause changes in fueling. Secondly if you have a properly sized and placed nozzle for your setup, the injected liquid would be fully atomized prior to entering the intake manifold. If you get to the point to where you are having drastically unequal fueling mixtures across cylinders from meth injection you are spraying too much from a single nozzle for your setup. I'm not arguing that spraying meth won't change fueling demands as it will. Simply stating that as long as your tune isn't dependent on the additional fuel or additional fuel quality for the timing requested, then you definitely can run a small water/meth mixture for cooling purposes.
Expensive but i spray nos 12" away from pre-turbo
Not to mention the octane rating of straight H20. can’t compress it….therefore you can’t have predetonation 😉
🤯
I would think that with the meth injection, your fuel mapping should be adjusted to ensure proper afr.
almost sounds like what the guy in the video said.
Can you do a video about Port meth injection
Hi mate, im in the UK methanol is half the price of ethanol here .can i mix methanol and petrol in the tank and put an E30 tune on the motor?
No it doesn't perform the same
Hey bro I have the BMS chargepipe with built in ports for WMI. I am planning to go HPFP and turbo route rather than port. Since data shows heat exchanger upgrade doesn’t improve IATs much, I’d rather spend that money on something more efficient. Do you think solely water injection is the best bet for my M340 (that will be controlled by a HOBB switch.) I already have intake upgrade as well. So water injection instead of heat exchanger? Or is heat exchanger not really worth it lol. Just want your input brotha
If you're not having issues with heat then i wouldn't worry about it
@@kern417 I live in central cali the summer days are well over 90-100s heat soak gets pretty noticeable after few pulls on a hot day haha
then a heat exchanger is your best bet. but stock cooling doesn't really heat soak on stock turbo.
If i can run direct port wmi mixture methanol water 50/50 is safe? Or i only using with water charge pipe water?
personally for port injection i'd run straight meth
@5:55 Is there a charge pipe with inlet for water injection close to the turbo in the market?
Most spray after the sensors so it won't risk Messing up the readings
@@kern417 So is there a risk to the sensors spraying water pre sensor? I'm planning on using the fuel it charge pipe spacer to make sure I have the least risk possible of getting water into the engine
Nice video, you couldn’t be more up to date with my built👍
Would a good custom tune works with CP WMI or i should stay with water only?
Thanks for that subject🙌
I would only run it with a custom tune that runs slightly richer to make sure that even the leanest cylinder is running at a safe AFR.
@@kern417 i’ll ask gently mister Yeahia😜
Thanks 👍
@@kern417 what meth kit would you suggest will suit the application of just cooling iat's in the b58 ...
What about on a car with a supercharger like the Z06? I can't get any answers on my harrop supercharged e92 m3
Everything i said applies to any modern engine with electronic fuel control
@@kern417 gotcha so I should only consider water for cooling. I found it interesting ESS sells their new g1 kits "meth ready" but dont tune for it and your video confirms my assumptions
@@andrewrossnagel9433 yes if you want to tune for it, at least i recommend running the tune slightly rich so even the leanest cylinder is running at a safe afr
How would 50/50 help perform on a N/A engine?
Same as any other high octane gas. More timing.
Hey Kern, is it possible to use port injection for 100% meth and CPI for water injection to help cooling together ? Have you seen both systems run together with a custom tune ?
In theory yes but i have not seen both systems used simultaneously.
"if youre planning on using meth" lmao
You have it backwards. Methanol does the majority of charge air cooling because it evaporates more easily. Water does the cooling in the combustion chamber. It takes the higher heat of the combustion chamber to change the state of water from liquid to gas. The change of state absorbs the heat.
Incorrect
You R the "Meth Whisperer"... (that may have not been the best choice of words:). Thank you for the video. You RoCk
I run meth. Have NEVER tuned to it ever..... Make a 1000 whp on 93 octane with meth with my Turbo Mustang. With E85 its just dumb cause E85 cools the fuel even more.