Zach once generously coached me on Twitch, and it got me fixed on my lane positioning, which got me from being a hardstuck ancient offlaner to a divine player. Love your work man. Easily digestible Dota information.
I feel like conceptual videos like these improve the dota community as a whole and I hope more people watch your videos. It should help support players for obvious reasons, but also core players too - those who are forced to play support when grinding role queue games/lower mmr core players made to play support in classic mode will lower their likelihood to unintentionally grief due to lack of familiarility with the support position. It should also improve team play during the laning phase as carries can understand how to better enable their supports or help their supports better enable them. For lower mmr players, this also helps player understand what good support positioning looks like, and may lead to carries blaming supports less for lost lanes, if they are playing according to the framework in the video and be more introspective of their own mistakes when lanes are lost despite supports playing in the right area.
I'm ngl man your youtube videos are unmatched on youtube. I think you make the best dota content out there and i really appreciate all of your vids. They're so helpful. Thanks for being an amazing creator!
This reminds me a lot of Merlini's content, in how it is extremely well presented. Glad to see someone living in his legacy (whether intentional or not), as I think this kind of effort has been lacking since he left.
I'm playing less games overall but I like to watch your videos when I'm driving to "practice" ahead of the nightly 2-3 games. I've seen a definite improvement from videos like this and noticed, especially last night several conscious choices to reposition myself. I play pos 5 85% of the time and It's so important to position well.... Keep it up Zach! :)
As someone who is a beginner in Dota, this video is absolutely helpful for me. I often confuse to position myself when doing particular things, such as harassing or pulling. This makes me difficult to give an impact in early game as pos 5. Thank you Quixotix!
I have watched videos for awhile, and my friends said I've been improving especially my cores friends experiencing better laning stage. Thank you Zach!
Much useful stuff...we already know all these things... But listening to this creates awareness about our micro movements and actions... Ty so much for providing such content for free bro
How do you only have 16k subs? Really polished presentation, info dense but easily understandable, and you are enthusiastic throughout the whole thing.
Ive started watching your videos a few months ago and I feel like they're improving so much compared to some of your earlier videos. I really think your fits a very nice niche that isn't covered enough by other creators!
Yeah, my early videos are poop in terms of production lol. Content wise I think they were alright, but the presentation could have been so much better. I think about redoing some of them to be more concise and updated
@@ZQuixotix Really? That could be cool. I personally found the way you explained concepts and communicated also improved as well, but maybe that could just be me. While I have your attention though, is there any chance you can play an Earth Spirit game, or do an Earth Spirit replay analysis? I feel like the hero is kinda nutty with certain aspects (potential 2.6s stun on a 4s cd in the lategame) but also prone to feeding a lot if you dont play him well. A lot of the guides for Earth Spirit are quite old as well (more than 1 year or 2).
This is insanely detailed and insanely useful. I generally play 1, but these concepts are still applicable. And, I still have to play lots of 4/5 for role queue, so this is still valuable. I really appreciate these kinds of videos and tutorials that are universal concepts, not necessarily mmr, hero, or mechanically dependent. Cheers.
Needed this, heard similar, e.g. create 2v1 situations, seems to follow, avoid getting 2v1'd, hence logic. Thanks! Just an addition regarding pro positioning and typical "safe zones", I actually learned of the safe zones via DuBu when he was playing Pugna vs OG on one of Stockholm final games - he just didn't stay there for long, only a wave to trade with Taiga as Rubick
Yeah, there will be a lot of moving around through the zones, I feel like maybe I could have gone in even more detail for that. But maybe that's for a future video!
Thanks for these videos! getting back into playing Dota for some variety after 5 years. Went to play offlane solo and was confused seeing the support follow me LOL. Watched your position video and it all made sense!
both you and BSJ gave us invaluable information about dota.. I learn alot from the support perspective down to pos1 role (BSJ).. I started from guardian IV and reached ARchon III in just less than 3 weeks because of these concepts.. (Side Note: I went back to crusader 5 because of the lag and power interruptions 🤣🤣🤣🤣) but i am happy i bump on your videos.. Thank you THANK YOU VERY MUCH
Oh, so that's why sometimes I dominate the lane. I play support, usually 5, and I always tend to stand in the trees, harassing enemy support. I always tend to attack 3-4 times before I even get trades back. The moment they retaliate, I already did some damage. I just need consistency so that I can win more lanes. Thank you!
Great video thanks! A follow up video on how to work out if you want to trade from first principles or your ac, damage/ lane partner would be great. Even a few things to look for
Thank you for putting in the time to make these excellent diagrams! It really helps me, even more than the gameplay clips because those have a lot of stuff going on and interacting. Question: Would you ever buy a quelling blade on a support to cut these critical trees yourself? I’m just thinking blade=3 tangos so if you can cut more than three trees with the blade it might be worth it. (guardian)
Actually I have an old video about starting with a Quelling Blade as a support! I almost always do it if I think I'm against a Treant Protector, and if I'm very scared of certain melee 4's that like to hide in the trees, I will also start QB. Though if the carry has one, you can just ask them to cut the trees.
Great video Zquixotix! Thanks for your content. Just sharing an observation based on my experience and general dota 2 matches in low mmr... The laning stage shenanigans don't really affect the overall outcome of the games bcoz we noobs just don't have any sense of taking advantage of a strong lane. So AFAIK having great laning, creep control, positioning, pulling etc mostly doesn't result in considerable outcomes. Can you please make a guide that fits the above scenario! I am sure you don't see that scenario at your level but trust me its too common down here :)
just notice i have more MMR than you but i still watch your videos and think they are amazing because alot of things i do automatic witthout thinking, amazing video BTW
3:04 "Can Slardar now run over and help out?" Mentally, I call those moments a "forced disengage". If Slardar disappears into the fog, Ogre must retreat. If there's a ward, you may see that he hasn't come to 2v1 but instead is in the trees soaking XP. Then you aren't forced to disengage. Watch for Slardar's micromovements and be sure to feign as though you don't have a ward watching him. Ogre can bait Lina to over-trade if she thinks he'll soon back out due to the threat of Slardar. Disclaimer: I'm herald so I'm usually wrong.
This is great, i like that you talked about strong support / weak; gap close and kill threat and how this affect positioning. I would have like to see if any hero significantly changes those principles because of their strength or playstyle (timber in the offlane ?, treant ? Viper (offlane support) razor / Ursa carry ? ) Thanks in advance
The principles would be the same, but the zones might shift around. Like Treant for example would put more danger around tree lines and certain cut off angles for the slow. Pudge Hook means open spaces are dangerous and you want to keep creeps between you. I'd have to think more about other heroes, but that could be an interesting follow up, thanks for the idea!
I feel like this doesn't need to be labelled 7.31d, even though this is recorded during that patch. What you explained has been relevant for like the past 10 years of dota. Unless you know, patch 8.x or even 7.33 HOPIUM.
Love your videos about support and have watched them thoroughly. However, I've heard that support isn't recommended for new players. Would you agree with that? I mean new as in not even ranked yet lol. About myself, I naturally tend to the supporting/play making role which seems like that's a 4 and 5 position?
if your personality fits the role, play it get good at it and don't give up. The learning curve for every role in dota is steep, have fun by learning mechanics, positioning, power spikes, timings, itemization etc..... Enjoy the grind! Support for the win!
Welcome to Dota! I have some videos about roles for new players. Whatever you want to play, you can play and be good at. Neither role is strictly "harder" than the other, but in my opinion, the objectives of a core role are easier and more objective than support roles. This can make it difficult for new players who are trying to do subtle things they don't fully understand. If you're watching my videos, you're probably better off than the average new player in terms of understanding support though. Go ahead and play support! I would recommend at least a couple core games here and there though to understand those roles a bit too (and how you can help them as a support)
@@ZQuixotix Thanks! Yeah I've been watching your videos for a while. I'll go back and watch that roles breakdown again since you detail out the roles and then even the specific nuances within each role. I think if someone has the instinct to be able to see plays happening or feel the momentum of that game that's a good indicator of being a support player.
This is awesome, amazing content One question. You made it clear how a ranged support should think about positioning, but what about melee supports that don't have 1000 EHP? e.g. what if I'm playing Marci 5 vs jakiro 4. Or maybe an earth spirit 4 vs bane 5. I feel like treant and ogre are kind of unique because they trade so insanely well. Most melee supports feel a lot worse and I often find I'm just sitting around either feeding, getting hit by creeps or sapping xp.
Yeah, even strong laners have to be careful approaching weak laners. In fact, this is one of the reasons high level players can lose against lower level players in lane. Not respecting the enemy and going beyond what Lv 1-3 hero can do thinking they can't be punished because they're supposed to be better
I don’t want to be that guy but being your friendly neighborhood herald 4, I just have to say yeah no my positioning is perfect all the time it’s my carry they just feed and feed and no matter how many times I steal farm or kills. I can’t win Even though I deserve immortal I swear it’s my carry bro. I’m out farming him in lane what’s going he must suck at last hitting and position I swear it’s not me. End scene! Thanks for the positioning video hopefully I’ll not feed as much
Zach once generously coached me on Twitch, and it got me fixed on my lane positioning, which got me from being a hardstuck ancient offlaner to a divine player. Love your work man. Easily digestible Dota information.
Congrats on getting to Divine!
I feel like conceptual videos like these improve the dota community as a whole and I hope more people watch your videos.
It should help support players for obvious reasons, but also core players too - those who are forced to play support when grinding role queue games/lower mmr core players made to play support in classic mode will lower their likelihood to unintentionally grief due to lack of familiarility with the support position.
It should also improve team play during the laning phase as carries can understand how to better enable their supports or help their supports better enable them.
For lower mmr players, this also helps player understand what good support positioning looks like, and may lead to carries blaming supports less for lost lanes, if they are playing according to the framework in the video and be more introspective of their own mistakes when lanes are lost despite supports playing in the right area.
I'm ngl man your youtube videos are unmatched on youtube. I think you make the best dota content out there and i really appreciate all of your vids. They're so helpful. Thanks for being an amazing creator!
This reminds me a lot of Merlini's content, in how it is extremely well presented. Glad to see someone living in his legacy (whether intentional or not), as I think this kind of effort has been lacking since he left.
I'm playing less games overall but I like to watch your videos when I'm driving to "practice" ahead of the nightly 2-3 games. I've seen a definite improvement from videos like this and noticed, especially last night several conscious choices to reposition myself. I play pos 5 85% of the time and It's so important to position well.... Keep it up Zach! :)
As someone who is a beginner in Dota, this video is absolutely helpful for me. I often confuse to position myself when doing particular things, such as harassing or pulling. This makes me difficult to give an impact in early game as pos 5. Thank you Quixotix!
I have watched videos for awhile, and my friends said I've been improving especially my cores friends experiencing better laning stage. Thank you Zach!
Much useful stuff...we already know all these things... But listening to this creates awareness about our micro movements and actions... Ty so much for providing such content for free bro
How do you only have 16k subs? Really polished presentation, info dense but easily understandable, and you are enthusiastic throughout the whole thing.
Ive started watching your videos a few months ago and I feel like they're improving so much compared to some of your earlier videos. I really think your fits a very nice niche that isn't covered enough by other creators!
Yeah, my early videos are poop in terms of production lol. Content wise I think they were alright, but the presentation could have been so much better. I think about redoing some of them to be more concise and updated
@@ZQuixotix Really? That could be cool. I personally found the way you explained concepts and communicated also improved as well, but maybe that could just be me.
While I have your attention though, is there any chance you can play an Earth Spirit game, or do an Earth Spirit replay analysis? I feel like the hero is kinda nutty with certain aspects (potential 2.6s stun on a 4s cd in the lategame) but also prone to feeding a lot if you dont play him well. A lot of the guides for Earth Spirit are quite old as well (more than 1 year or 2).
This is insanely detailed and insanely useful. I generally play 1, but these concepts are still applicable. And, I still have to play lots of 4/5 for role queue, so this is still valuable. I really appreciate these kinds of videos and tutorials that are universal concepts, not necessarily mmr, hero, or mechanically dependent. Cheers.
YEEEESSSSS THANK YOU SO MUCH
Every time I see these types of videos produced I see a notable improvement in my and my rando teammates play
I have no idea if I actually contribute to the average Dota player improving, but that's definitely something I hope for! Thanks for watching!
Needed this, heard similar, e.g. create 2v1 situations, seems to follow, avoid getting 2v1'd, hence logic. Thanks!
Just an addition regarding pro positioning and typical "safe zones", I actually learned of the safe zones via DuBu when he was playing Pugna vs OG on one of Stockholm final games - he just didn't stay there for long, only a wave to trade with Taiga as Rubick
Yeah, there will be a lot of moving around through the zones, I feel like maybe I could have gone in even more detail for that. But maybe that's for a future video!
@@ZQuixotix Love your content man, thanks again
Finally a content creator that actually does teaching in an effective way!!!
Thanks for these videos! getting back into playing Dota for some variety after 5 years. Went to play offlane solo and was confused seeing the support follow me LOL. Watched your position video and it all made sense!
both you and BSJ gave us invaluable information about dota.. I learn alot from the support perspective down to pos1 role (BSJ).. I started from guardian IV and reached ARchon III in just less than 3 weeks because of these concepts.. (Side Note: I went back to crusader 5 because of the lag and power interruptions 🤣🤣🤣🤣) but i am happy i bump on your videos.. Thank you THANK YOU VERY MUCH
it was quite a pain to get used to not aggro-ing creeps as a support, but once i got used to it my lanes are much more stable
Yeah, it's a very important skill that really helps your laning
You are really helping the dota community! Keep it up! I really enjoy your tutorial videos! Waiting for the replay analysis.
Thanks, I'll keep doing my best!
Oh, so that's why sometimes I dominate the lane. I play support, usually 5, and I always tend to stand in the trees, harassing enemy support. I always tend to attack 3-4 times before I even get trades back. The moment they retaliate, I already did some damage. I just need consistency so that I can win more lanes. Thank you!
Great video thanks! A follow up video on how to work out if you want to trade from first principles or your ac, damage/ lane partner would be great. Even a few things to look for
Great idea!
Thank you for putting in the time to make these excellent diagrams! It really helps me, even more than the gameplay clips because those have a lot of stuff going on and interacting.
Question: Would you ever buy a quelling blade on a support to cut these critical trees yourself? I’m just thinking blade=3 tangos so if you can cut more than three trees with the blade it might be worth it. (guardian)
Actually I have an old video about starting with a Quelling Blade as a support! I almost always do it if I think I'm against a Treant Protector, and if I'm very scared of certain melee 4's that like to hide in the trees, I will also start QB. Though if the carry has one, you can just ask them to cut the trees.
Great video Zquixotix! Thanks for your content. Just sharing an observation based on my experience and general dota 2 matches in low mmr... The laning stage shenanigans don't really affect the overall outcome of the games bcoz we noobs just don't have any sense of taking advantage of a strong lane. So AFAIK having great laning, creep control, positioning, pulling etc mostly doesn't result in considerable outcomes.
Can you please make a guide that fits the above scenario! I am sure you don't see that scenario at your level but trust me its too common down here :)
just notice i have more MMR than you but i still watch your videos and think they are amazing because alot of things i do automatic witthout thinking, amazing video BTW
Can we get an updated version on 7.33
3:04 "Can Slardar now run over and help out?" Mentally, I call those moments a "forced disengage". If Slardar disappears into the fog, Ogre must retreat. If there's a ward, you may see that he hasn't come to 2v1 but instead is in the trees soaking XP. Then you aren't forced to disengage. Watch for Slardar's micromovements and be sure to feign as though you don't have a ward watching him. Ogre can bait Lina to over-trade if she thinks he'll soon back out due to the threat of Slardar. Disclaimer: I'm herald so I'm usually wrong.
This is great, i like that you talked about strong support / weak; gap close and kill threat and how this affect positioning.
I would have like to see if any hero significantly changes those principles because of their strength or playstyle (timber in the offlane ?, treant ? Viper (offlane support) razor / Ursa carry ? )
Thanks in advance
The principles would be the same, but the zones might shift around. Like Treant for example would put more danger around tree lines and certain cut off angles for the slow. Pudge Hook means open spaces are dangerous and you want to keep creeps between you. I'd have to think more about other heroes, but that could be an interesting follow up, thanks for the idea!
Mega appreciate this vid my guy
I know this is old but i'd love to see more about positioning, especially in team fights.
I remember talking about this concept in one of our coaching sessions. Very useful information 👌
Good to hear from you!
@@ZQuixotix you'll be pleased to know i lost 1300mmr in the past 3 weeks
@@jackalker6384 git gud
@@nltiro3387 ive gone up 580mmr since my last comment 👍
Hey friend! I feed in the lane all the time! Huge thanks for this video
I feel like this doesn't need to be labelled 7.31d, even though this is recorded during that patch. What you explained has been relevant for like the past 10 years of dota. Unless you know, patch 8.x or even 7.33 HOPIUM.
Good point!
Love your videos about support and have watched them thoroughly. However, I've heard that support isn't recommended for new players. Would you agree with that? I mean new as in not even ranked yet lol. About myself, I naturally tend to the supporting/play making role which seems like that's a 4 and 5 position?
if your personality fits the role, play it get good at it and don't give up. The learning curve for every role in dota is steep, have fun by learning mechanics, positioning, power spikes, timings, itemization etc..... Enjoy the grind! Support for the win!
Welcome to Dota! I have some videos about roles for new players. Whatever you want to play, you can play and be good at. Neither role is strictly "harder" than the other, but in my opinion, the objectives of a core role are easier and more objective than support roles. This can make it difficult for new players who are trying to do subtle things they don't fully understand. If you're watching my videos, you're probably better off than the average new player in terms of understanding support though. Go ahead and play support! I would recommend at least a couple core games here and there though to understand those roles a bit too (and how you can help them as a support)
@@ZQuixotix Thanks! Yeah I've been watching your videos for a while. I'll go back and watch that roles breakdown again since you detail out the roles and then even the specific nuances within each role. I think if someone has the instinct to be able to see plays happening or feel the momentum of that game that's a good indicator of being a support player.
Can you do a video on tree paths? I think it would be interesting as a newer player
lets get them algorithms going
THIS IS AWESOME
Thank you for the great content!
Thanks for watching!
Great channel
Great video 😊
This is awesome, amazing content
One question. You made it clear how a ranged support should think about positioning, but what about melee supports that don't have 1000 EHP? e.g. what if I'm playing Marci 5 vs jakiro 4. Or maybe an earth spirit 4 vs bane 5. I feel like treant and ogre are kind of unique because they trade so insanely well. Most melee supports feel a lot worse and I often find I'm just sitting around either feeding, getting hit by creeps or sapping xp.
that 1st 5mins explain why i lose when i viper losing from rubick am, because i underestimate the 2v1
Yeah, even strong laners have to be careful approaching weak laners. In fact, this is one of the reasons high level players can lose against lower level players in lane. Not respecting the enemy and going beyond what Lv 1-3 hero can do thinking they can't be punished because they're supposed to be better
Thank you so much
great video!
Thanks!
Thank you so much ❤️
Thank YOU!
I don’t want to be that guy but being your friendly neighborhood herald 4, I just have to say yeah no my positioning is perfect all the time it’s my carry they just feed and feed and no matter how many times I steal farm or kills. I can’t win Even though I deserve immortal I swear it’s my carry bro. I’m out farming him in lane what’s going he must suck at last hitting and position I swear it’s not me.
End scene!
Thanks for the positioning video hopefully I’ll not feed as much
Carries that can't even outlast hit their own supports smh
@@ZQuixotix I know it’s a sad life
still a great vid
start from 1:03 and it's the most sus thing.
same video for 7.33 please.
hi men I'm from the future, can U redo some videos like this, the map has changed a lot
👍🏾
Thanks a lot..
Thank you..
I wanna be coached by youuuuu :/