Subtle Spell is like... one of the "required" metamagics. Its not just social situations, it makes your spellcasting immune to counterspell. It makes your counterspells immune to counterspell. Take Subtle spell!
It's sad that everybody forgets that draconic sorcerers get to had twice their proficiency bonus when interacting with dragons wich, lets be honest, is the negociations you do not want to mess up...
Rarely comes up, so not very useful as it is too circumstantial. Just dip into 1 lvl of rogue and get persuasion and deception expertise and you're set against ALL creatures.
Once all these role ranking videos are done, I’d love to see a side-by-side comparison of all classes and all roles. Because I’m seeing some trends about which classes are high in everything and which are low in everything but don’t have time to pull up every video.
Yep. Final lists: bard, wizard, cleric, druid always good to great. Artificer, paladin, rogue, barbarian, fighter, ranger, situationally good to great. Sorcerer: below average to good. Monk and warlock: always bad.
@@kaynadinstilleverge3843 Maybe with this approach yeah although Sorcerer and Warlock are probably higher. I think Treantmonk's final subclass ranking is probably the closest to a true tier list. Top tier: Wizard, Bard, Paladin. Super Good: Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer. Decent: Ranger, Fighter, Warlock. Meh: Artificer, Rogue, Barb. Trash: Monk.
I've been keeping a spreadsheet. As of this video, Bards are strongly in the lead, followed by Druids. Fighters and Barbarians are at the bottom, barely beating out the Monk for last place. But keep in mind, this isn't measuring class power. It's measuring class *diversity*
The whole barbarian with good charisma is a cool idea, why don't we have something like a "path of the war chief" barbarian that could have battle master maneuvers that is tied to their cha score or something
You could make a gladiator subclass for them and it would fit perfectly for a charisma-based barbarian. Showing off while being big & muscley is their whole thing.
Just make a hexbarian, then you can pump charisma and have it be your attack stat. You're a couple points weaker on damage from losing out on rage damage but that isn't that big of a buff in the first place. You get a curse to put on things, and it only takes a couple of levels dip to get invocations for that massive social boost. The normal weakness of the warlock being not able to cast many spells a day kinda goes with the normal weakness of the barbarian not having much of a non-rage window to cast them in, so that's not even the problem most casters have being combined with the barbarian. Strength need never go beyond 13.
Rogue as a negotiatior is heavily underrated due to the fact that you're a *Rogue* - you only need one stat to be effective. The secondary stat, while many say it should be CON, can be anything due to the playstyle of Rogues being reliant on *not* attracting attention and being hit. After all, you don't need HP if you're never under fire (and you shouldn't be). Any Rogue subclass except Thief and Scout lends itself to negotiations. Assassin helps with disguises naturally and mimicry. Inquisitive is unfailing at Insight. Mastermind gets proficiencies in tools that can give leverage in negotiations and even look into the mental capabilities of your target. Soulknife gets self-inspiration so they never fail a check. Phantom can pick up skills on the fly when necessary and use the information of the dead as leverage. Arcane Trickster has enchantment as mainline spells. Swashbuckler relies on CHA as a secondary stat for multiple things. When you think about it, Rogue's features are universally *geared* towards "supporting those skills", which Monty said Rogues don't have.
It’s one of the weird things about this rating system. You don’t get the highest rating if you need to build for it. But I’m always considering rogue if there’s something I’m building for.
Meanwhile, in my Drakkenheim campaign, a bad sneak roll lead to the Barbarian at my table needing to be an investigator and a negotiator, both of which she kept nailing high rolls on while the other 2 snuck around. Barbarian S Tier right there.
28:51 Fey Wanderers are the exception, adding wisdom to all charisma checks with extra prof. in persuasion or deception, charm person in their spell list and Beguiling twist with the option to counter charm a creature or turn a frightened condition into a charm condition to another creature
I also feel it can be noted that they can sub Natural Explorer with Deft Explorer, granting you an additional 2 free languages (which I personally feel can be a great benefit with the right DM... then again, I am on a ranger with 4 extra languages outside of Common, so...)
Don't forget Jack of All Trades for Bards. Even if they don't pick all 4 charisma skills, they're still likely going to have the highest modifier in the party for the ones they don't pick.
A Druidic Warrior/Polearm Master Fey Wanderer who has even middling charisma and uses Canny to get expertise in Persuasion will be an S-tier negotiator while still being a dangerous melee fighter and better than most other Rangers at wisdom skills and spellcasting
I have a Level 20 Druid-14, Ranger-5, Rouge-1 Fey Wonderer that rocks, with Proficiency, and a +13 Bonus on Deception and Persuasion, with Advantage from Enhance Ability Spell on each. And his CHA was dumped and is only 12 CHA +1, lol. Definitely an S-Tier in my book.
One thing for the artificer and by extension the forge cleric is that they can barter and triad a service This may fall under roll play but not a lot of classes can say “I am an expert and can do this for you” outside of theft and combat
Right, they don’t but those classes can make and trade things with supported class features it’s not perfect but I have seen artificers trade there inventions and services to There social capitol I know all classes can do this but artificers are on of the few classes that make stuff and put a lot on crafting Any PC could do it but an Artificer can do it with out focusing on it That’s why I don’t think it should be D but a C
I actually used my Artificer's expertise in tools to help barter against merchants. They can't get past high investigation checks and tool expertise when my Artificer would argue "Hey, I know exactly what X is, I know how to make them, and they are NOT this expensive! Also, your magic Y is actually not magical at all. You will NOT be able to swindle me on this."
@@benhamilton3009 All PC's can do this with a bit of downtime and creativity or by finding the thing to give to them. Most characters have some tool proficiencies from backgrounds that they can use to provide a service with.
The one thing I wish was discussed more is how to make negotiation / social interaction more than just a Charisma skill exchange: contests of strength, knowledge share for intelligence, and acrobatics or slight of hand to impress people, a drinking contest with constitution, gaining followers via sharing wisdom... Also, some people don't like the Charisma-type social manipulators, so being clever with words might be a detriment. I realize, that takes a really great DM, but I love making the social pillar as exciting as combat for everyone.
The Barbarian is the passionate counter point to the logical character. Bard: "We've negotiated the great cease fire in the war." Barbarian: "No... they must leave or die." Bard (fails intimidation save): "ok, I'll be right back."
Y’all sleeping on the artificer. Again, it’s a prepared caster. This was build up quite a bit for the cleric and not for the artificer. Artificer has ritual casting. You get access to the guidance cantrip which is probably going to be chosen regardless of if your building to be a “face” substitute. Flash of genius lets you add your intelligence to your checks or saves as a reaction. This is used after you know you’ve already failed, and so it’s less likely to be wasted. You can very easily choose enhance ability to be your 2nd level spell choice for your spell storing item feature. 8 to 10 extra castings of enhance ability can go a long way with almost universal advantage on checks available. Base class artificer with no invocations or charisma attribute investment can be better than a paladin.
I feel the same way, but what you said is way more thought out then what I said though. Long story short you can essentially have expertise in persuasion checks involving alcohol starting at 6th level, and that's in addition to everything you said
If the DM is even little bit lenient, strength/intimidation is one of the most common examples of using the variant rule of skills with different abilities, it's even listed in PHB. This plays into hands of barbarians, fighters, and other meat shields - they can intimidate enemies to do (or not do) something with a display of raw beefiness.
I'm playing a barbarian in our campaign, and I actually am the negotiator. My other 2 party member are a wizard and a druid, neither with a good CHA score or proficiency in Persuasion, meanwhile I have 14 CHA (highest in the party), and are proficient in Persuasion and Intimidation.
S - Bard: glibness/detect thoughts/suggestion/enhance ability + expertise with core skill A - Rogue: reliable talent, expertise Fey Wanderer ranger is amazing a social skills, it class as a whole is not that great. Can get expertise with Canny!
true, but the dudes have said that one subclass having really good abilities in a party role such as negotiator does not have give a class the A or S tier. Overall, the Ranger isn't a great negotiator
With the Ranger you can build it - but the base class really is not great for that. Even if the best battle speech in LotR was by the quintessential Ranger, rangers very often are party leaders - in 5e they are not negotiators. And I love Rangers.
Not really fey wanderer is one subclass and they actually explained their reasoning with rogue. You actually need to build your rogue for that since not all of the rogues choose expertise on their social skills or have high charisma scores. Also reliable talent comes at level 11 and that is actually pretty late most campaigns don't last that long.
This series works as a pretty good measure of which classes are the most and least versatile. If you look at the highest ranked classes its Bard, Druid, and Wizard in descending order, which makes sense from a versatility standpoint.
My gaming group just finished a short campaign that was an all-Bard party. This sort of thing is an interesting way to examine these party roles, as it behooves the player during creation mode to get specific in their builds. In this vein, an all-Barbarian party (which isn’t a crazy notion - that’s what their society is, right) is going to be sorely lacking in a number of party-roles (particularly according to you fellas). It got me thinking: is that what makes them Barbarians? A lack of negotiation, investigation, and “party face”….?
@@Fektthis To a degree negotiatian, can also be done through torture. A barbarian would certainly be able to hurt the person, so it would influence the ranking a little bit, barbarians can't heal so what if they go to far? The healer feat can be a good aid, but it's not really their style. Compare to cleric, ranger (and fey wanderer would be even better), druid, artificer and paladin would all probably get a more significant boost to their ranking. (bards get healing, but they don't need the boost as they are already leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else) Even the specific subclasses of Mercy, divine soul and celestial would be in a better position than for example a fighter. What do you think a torturer tier list would look like?
I wouldn’t say the barbarian CLASS is the same as a barbarian SOCIETY. You can have a barbarian society where there are shamans and trackers and craftsmen. People who use bows and slings and magic. An all barbarian CLASS party isn’t really representing a barbarian society as a whole. It’s just showing the biggest strongest ones that have that lust or drive or fighting spirit that aligns with the rage mechanic.
I wanted to drop by on this video to say that I've recently been looking to start some campaigns of my own, and I wanted to tell you just how much I'm loving your channel, and how well you go through every aspect of D&D in such a way that a first-time newb like myself can grasp. I've gained so much knowledge from watching you guys, and I can't thank you enough for having this channel up! Please continue to keep up the amazing work!
I would love to see the Dungeon Dude's rate the subclasses from the Kobold Press books: Tome of Hero's, Midgard Hero's Handbook, Southlands Hero's Handbook, and Deep Magic. They have a few Barbarian subclasses that are made for leadership style characters, it's so freaking cool.
I feel like tools are underrated. With all the tool proficiencies you can get as artificer, you can easily grab proficiency with the brewer's supplies, and at 6th level you would have situational expertise in persuasion (only when alcohol is involved), combined with enhance ability for advantage. That should make you at least above average at being the negotiator without really sacrificing anything
personally I think between the Samurai, battle master, and technically champion (any fighter can get superior technique and the champion can get two fighting styles so they benefit even more from it) giving fighters pretty sizeable buffs to persuasion they at least deserve a C, a samurai with the superior technique could without struggling too much get a ridiculously high persuasion modifier (obviously this role is about more than just persuasion but it is an important factor)
They also forgot to mention Eldritch Knights can bring spells with them to assist in negotiations as they access the Wizard spell list, and the fact that Echo Knights can literally conduct an entire negotiation without ever needing to actually be in harm's way.
@@TheHandgunhero Eldritch Knights must take spell from evocation and abjuration list, save for one at 3rd, 8th, 14th, 20th level. So an Eldrich Knights without extra feats could only now 4 spells that aren't evocation or abjuration (and two only very late in level).
@@fabiovarra3698 This is still enough to pick up some basic intrigue spells. Keep in mind, you don't need many spells to augment your combat as an Eldritch Knight because your martial characteristics are already covered by virtue of playing a Fighter. It's not amazing, but it still does more for negotiations than other D ranked classes offer.
Been waiting for this one! Charisma classes are my favorite, but i can definitely guess that the bard is gonna take home the crown. Still cant wait to see how my warlock ranks tho!
Yea warlock’s my favourite class hands down and, while doing pretty average, I feel like they got shafted in some of these. But yea, no one’s arguing that bard wins this… easily
My character, Dr. Devil, is a Tiefling Artificer Artillerist / Celestial Warlock. I use the protector cannon to give Temp HP to my team and use my pact of the chain IMP familiar, named Mini Me, to carry it while flying invisibly. The cannon being a magical object then too become invisible. The character is a devil, uses infernal contraptions, and indeed the devil is in the details. Dr. Devil's charisma score is 20 and is good at negotiations.
so what you're saying is a bard with the Metamagic Adept feat to get subtle spell? as someone who loves mixing and matching abilities and skills, I think there's more flexibility. I'll give that Barbarian Strength (Intimidation) or that Cleric Wisdom (Persuasion) if the players make a case for it. A creature with a high INT score maybe more inclined to listen to the wizard's logic - Intelligence (Persuasion) - than the bard's emotional appeal. The only drawback I've found is a lot of my games are online and that isn't as conducive to creativity.
I really like this use of the "Skills with Different Abilities" mechanic (PHB p. 175), and I'd like to see it implemented in more VTTs, even though it's pretty easy to do the math.
Listened to the first part of this yesterday, finished it today. Monty had me screaming in my car when he talked about a "Skald." I want that so desperately but rage and spells don't like each other. I'm pretty sure Pathfinder 1E has hybrid classes, with Skald being one of them. The hybrid classes in Pathfinder are cool (like Bloodrager i think, Barb/Sorcerer) but they're basically just the counterpart to multiclassing in 5e
Let's go, dudes. Artificer- High C. You are an expert in what you do, but usually that's not talking. Barbarian-I disagree heavily here, and give the Barbarian a C. If you go into skills at all, Barbarians want to intimidate. Cha checks, then, are flavorful to start with, and though the typical interaction is 'Do you really wanna mess with me?' that's still a negotiation. They aren't experts, by far, but exactly on point for them. Bard-S. No contest. This is, hands down, their thing. Cleric-B. Flexible spellcasting helps, and Guidance/Bless can make anything work. Driud-C. Druids don't necessarily need to dump Cha, but with nothing to boost it... Fighter-Low C. Much like Barbarians, they can act as a deterrent negotiator too. They have enough to help, but are far from the face. Monk-D. Unlike Fighter and Barbarian, your dependence on Wisdom means you can't really focus Cha in any way. They are too MAD. Paladin-High B. They can use the Fighter and Barb tactic, while adding a few spells to boost the opposite. Expertise holds it back, plus being only a half caster, so... Ranger- Much like the monk, this is too MAD to help, and the spell list hurts. D. Rogue-A. Expertise matters, and Rogues need a way, when they get caught sneaking, to live. Cha matters then, and many Rogues use it. It does wonders. Sorcerer-Low A. Subtle spell matters. Warlock-High B. The flavor of this class is negotiating their power to begin with. Not leaning into it hurts a hair. Their lack of slots hurts, and lacking expertise matters too, but they can easily be a face. Wizard-Low B. As a master of spells, they can buff, but Cha is typically lower since they use Int.
If there is one thing I have learned from watching these party role tier list videos, is that you could honestly just make a group of all bards, have each member fill the roles, and simply win D&D.
36:50 if I can get 2 metamagics, subtle spell is not a choice to me. As a sorcerer you don't get an awful lot of spells, so I want to either build towards heightened spell targets, twinned spell targets, take quickened spell if don't have a focus and just want an extra cantrip, and always the second slot going to subtle spell. You ARE going to encounter a situation where you either can't or don't want to visibly cast a spell. In those situations subtle spell is a life saver.
@@Miggy19779 exactly, subtle spell is a great anticaster. I have a character concept where I have an "anti wizard" sorcerer gnome. That specific gnome subrace gives the silence spell, and subtle spell silence just obliterates enemy magic users. When it's subtle spell, it's likely that the enemy caster doesn't notice what happened, so it will waste its turn casting a spell that won't launch.
@@Miggy19779 Lol I just saw that some dude had replied "twinned spell is the worst metamagic" to me, then removed that comment over the last day. I am assuming he has found enough reason to debunk himself as... surprise twinned single target concentration spells are amazing... It is amazing to get that kind of W against dumb comments without trying 😂
@@Olav_Hansen facepalm. Twinned, subtle, quickened, all amazing. There's even niche uses for distant spell to surprise casters with 120 ft counterspell if you want to troll, and the metamagic adept is a great addition, TWO extra metamagic and 2 sorcery points? Hell yeah. I even give this feat to all my wizard characters for emergency subtle spell.
Kelly twisting the knife in the Purple Dragon Knight, oooof.😵 I am currently playing one (my 1st character with this group) in a long running campaign, but just made plans with the DM to have them change subclasses.👍
Artificer's Flash of Genius should have counted for enough to lift them to C. It's not a spell that would give them away and it can be used plenty. It's at a somewhat higher level, but the spell storing item can disguise the whole party or provide a healthy enhance ability bank. Finally, they have tons of practical ability to negotiate trades in kind.
It's funny when going over Sorcerer that Clockwork Soul got mentioned but not Aberrant Mind. With their expanded spell list getting Enchantment spells you can easily stack up on those spells that would best benefit for negotiation without counting against your spells known.
Cha>Dex Bard-Fighter face, no instrument but is a skjald-type a'capella sprechgesang with a dash of juggling. He can use the balls or knives as weapons as needed alongside the mace he keeps at his side - As a bounty hunter, he collects information while peacocking in the taverns or town square. Think of Thom Merrilin from WOT but without the harp/flute and a touch of Wit from Stormlight. He's gone from a mumbling homeless dude to a catering waiter to a dashing courtier in ~3min
I think the enchantment wizard is an interesting negotiator, since they rely on their intelligence and spells more than charisma. I'm sure they cover it in the video, but I haven't gotten to that part yet.
So, another victory for the bard, best class in general So far, the bard get straight A's and S's with the exception of the frontliner, which can have an A on the right build
Kelly and Monty I've been loving your class role rankings. My question, from you guys experience and talking with others, what is the hardest role to fill in a party most of the time?
Eloquence Bard with a dip into Rogue for the extra expertise. Also a little extra damage if you literally stab someone in the back after lulling them into a false sense of security. Also the Courtier background to crush your enemies with the power of municipal bureaucracy.
Agree 100% about Bard being S ranking. I want to point out that the things they say about it "being casually good" and how it could possibly be an A ranking is exactly why I thought Rogue was S tier investigator and why Wizard was B tier investigator, a few videos back. With bard, it is totally possible to go out of your way to make them someone who isn't the face of the party, if that is the concept you want to explore! But you will likely still have passive skills just because of your CHA score.
This again has me thinking about the 4e warlord. I really think 5e could benefit from a cha/int based martial support class. This also being because int is so under represented.
They lack good defensive spells and in combat often struggle to do reliable damage...fun to play though and imho with magic items (bards have some awesome ones)....defense and combat strength can be fixed.
I think you’re underselling the Artificer. Negotiation is a role that relies heavily on skill checks. With Guidance, Enhance Ability and Flash of Genius, even an Artificer with a +2 Cha can be rolling +11+1d4 with advantage by 9th level, without any specific build choices except proficiency in Persuasion. And with the way they prepare spells, they can choose Enhance Ability, Disguise Self, etc. and switch them out when they head into the dungeon. Add in Infusions like Eyes of Charming, Helm of Telepathy and Medallion of Thoughts, which again can be switched out for combat days, and I think you really have something. If you want to build just a little for it, you can throw in Skill Expert and your average roll by level 9 could be around 30, while still having +5 Int and +3 Con so you’re not falling behind anywhere else. Edit 2: Seriously? A- for a Paladin and C- for an Artificer? To me, that’s wild. The only thing they have over Artificers is an average of about 2-3 more Cha points, which Guidance alone can make up. Everything else about the Paladin is worse.
I DM for an eloquence bard and it presents a really interesting challenge for me. Luckily my other players are also very chatty but trying to reward her ridiculous persuasiveness in a balanced way is its own little DMing skill. I am coping just fine, but I would definitely like to see your thoughts on dealing with OP characters like this from a DM perspective at some point.
One more bonus for sorcerers: Magical Guidance at 5th level lets you spend a sorcery point to re-roll any ability check you fail. So when you brick that crucial Deception or Persuasion check, give yourself another shot!
On the topic of barbarian having more skill proficiencies and stuff, I do actually think I would love to add a homebrew ability to Barbarians, and possibly Fighters or Paladins that use certain subclasses, that lets them substitute Strength in place of Charisma for Intimidation rolls. In this way, not all classes could benefit from this, but classes that WOULD actually be intimidating can actually, statistically, game functionally, be good at intimidating. The big guy in armor with the sword shouldn't have a -1 to intimidation because Charimsa is his dump stat. The guy that looks like he drinks blood from a skull and carries an axe with a head bigger than a halfling absolutely should not have a negative in Intimidation. This would be specifically for certain classes. Barbarians in general, Vengeance Paladins, Champion Fighters, etc. I hardly think it would break the game or make them unbalanced, and it's so disappointing to make this big bulky fighter you view as this intimidating fellow, but because of game mechanics, nobody takes him seriously. And it's just for Intimidation, not all Charisma based checks in general.
completely agree - my DM has sometimes allowed me to do something cool in combat and they try and intimidate my foes using Strength rather than Charisma - and as Throkk is a half orc, he gets proficiency in Intimidation as well as his Strength bonus in this case!
I built a cleric that feels like a bard. 16CHA, entertainer background, expertise in Persuasion (Skill Expert feat). I did it so well that for several sessions, the other players kept thinking he was in fact a bard. Even after I revealed he was a cleric in the second session by using Channel divinity.
The Barbarian at my table is currently the main negotiator. He speaks two languages that nobody else in the party speaks and those are currently very relevant. Also, one boon of his goddess (it’s a Theros campaign) gives him advantage on persuasion checks while within a city.
Well I think this discussion missed out on a very important part of negotiations: insight. It's not just charisma but also wisdom to understand the other parties motivations and detect in these negotiations if there honest.
With my bard (13th level swords bard) I have expertise in arcana, deception, persuasion, and insight. It's really nice when I do the negotiating. Even though wisdom is a dump stat I still have a +8 to insight.
I like the rogue for S, I know the bard will get it but I feel that that is due to spell use, in mid to high level play at any important negotation there should be someone with detect magic on to keep the parties honest, here reliable talent is key, and bard losses out a little. Plus swahbuckler has a none magical charm person effect and is insentivised towards good charisma anyway.
I hope after they do all these roll tier lists they do conclusion videos for each class. Giving each roll and how it was ranked. Really show what classes are good at and what they are bad at, and maybe point out pain points in this and solutions to them.
It's funny just last night, my aberrant mind sorcerer talked his way through then entire dungeon lead by Ras-Nsi in tomb of annihilation without a single attack roll.
Going through Strahd right now, and my Grave Domain Cleric wound up being the party face, even with a Sorcerer in the party. I guess just thematically it made sense with my subclass and backstory
I know it was not brought up, but if we did subclass specific, a fey wanderer ranger is probably an A as you get to add your wisdom to your charisma checks, and with druidic warrior, a d10 hit dice, shilelagh, half plate and a shield makes you a solid frontling character that can use polearm master via a quarterstaff, and is also very good at being the face via skills, and don't knock enhance ability too, granted it is the exception that proves the rule, but that build is probably a solid A rank Edit: if we add on the tasha's features, you can end up with 6-7 languages known and expertise in your face skill of choice, and fey touched and skill expert start to look really good too
a warlock is like your older brother’s box of legos. you have to build, and you can build just about anything from it, it’s just going to be a bit of work and might look kind of funny at the end. but you know, sometimes there’s just enough black bricks to have the front face look fine, as long as you don’t mind the rest of the set being all multi colored.
The Ranger is undervalued here. They get a seriously good subclass for this specific role in the Fey Wanderer which should earn them at least a C. Plus a good amount of Expertise from TCE and something you didn't mention at all, a huge number of languages which can also factor in negotiation.
The wild look on the face of the Apothecary class from the new kickstarter (Sebastian Crowe's Guide to Drakkenheim) makes me wonder how good she would be at interrogation.
Hey guys, loving the content as always. Super new to D&D but it's struck me as odd that intimidation is a charisma based skill rather than strength. Maybe there should be a feat that allows you to use your strength mod for intimidation instead of charisma. Lets be honest, there's not a lot more intimidating than having to stare up at 6' 3" meat shield. :o)
Generally that is covered under the PHB rules on 175 with variant skill attributes. They specifically call out the Strength intimidation option. You just have to get the DM to actually do it. Which shouldn't be hard since it is 100% RAW and makes sense like you said
Also, only one of Ranger's subclassess states Charisma as important, and that is the Fey Wanderer, but even then, only a small handful of abilities they get as a Fey Wanderer that specifically names Charisma as an important component.
The thing that helps paladins in negotiations is that the class often implies a social status that opens doors for interacting with people adventurers often need to negotiate with in good faith (and that often can't easily be enspelled or intimidated).
Artificers get access to both Guidance and Enhance Ability then later on Flash of Genius. Not to mention more niche options like getting access to Eyes of Charming as an infusion. They are clearly not the best but I would put them in the C tier at least.
I mean, the bard was a no brainer. Concerning the rogue often coming in much like the bard, the bard use to be a part od the rogue class so it makes sense
Some maths, assuming level 10 and reasonable builds, on a persuasion check: Bard: min 23, max 33, expected 28 - using 20CHA (+5), Expertise and level 10 (+8), College of Eloquence Silver Tongue (EV on a d20 becomes 12.75), Silver Tongue plus Friends (grants advantage on a d20, nothing lower than 10, EV is now 14.54). Paladin: min 14, max 33, expected 23.5 - using 18CHA (+4), proficiency at level 10 (+4), Oath of Redemption Emissary of peace (+5), no adjustment to d20 roll (min1, max 20, EV 10.5)
Assuming you don't have two bards, the best possible persuasion check at level 10 would be for a bard to use bardic inspiration on an Oath of Redemption Paladin, another caster to use Enhance Ability (Eagle's Grace), the paladin to burn a channel divinity to use Emissary of Peace, and all dice to roll at their max. Assuming an 18CHA Paladin... This would be a total of 43, and has a 0.975% chance of happening. Please feel free to check me on that.
There is the possibility of multiclassing and getting both Silver Tongue AND Emissary of Peace. That would be Bard 4, Paladin 4 (to get both ASIs to put 20CHA in play), plus 2 levels in anything else. Then stack expertise, level 10 proficiency (+8), 20CHA (+5), Emissary of Peace (+5), and Silver Tongue plus Friends (EV 14.54)... That gives you min 28, max 38, expected value of 33. To which if you have a full bard in the party to give you inspiration and you roll a ten... Theoretically, a 48 could happen, again at just slightly less than 1% probability.
I really like the Dungeon Dudes party roles videos but id like to see differentiation between which classes fill each role and also fall into dps or control.
One thing about the Wizard that may not be taken into account because it's not really a class feature, but in a negotiation context it is probably assumed by everyone present that the high-Int Wizard is aware of all possibilities and is a master strategist, which may cow all but the most shrewd of opponents. Just a thought! Playing my Wizard and just outsmarting everyone to force them into negotiations that are bad for them is great.
I think the best role for a cleric and wizard in negotiations is as an adviser, who can assist the negotiator by making Int and Wis skill checks to provide accurate info to the Bard via Telepathic Bond.
I've been playing a sorcerer in a campaign and am the face of the party. I LOVE using subtle spell detect thoughts! Makes conversing with NPCs very fun!
I'd say fighter has enough "ribbons" as they call them to warrant a C, if you are using the barbarian and Artificer as the basis of D ranking. With the extra ASIs to grab non-mandatory stats and feats and the many paths to little persuasion buffs (PDK, Samurai, battlemaster abilities, or even charm person on an eldritch knight), they at least rival druid
Yeah Fighter definitely has more going for it than the other D rankings. And yes, the options are baked into the subclasses, but the difference with Fighter is that SEVERAL subclasses actually give you options and not just 1 or 2. Battlemaster, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, Purple Dragon Knight, Rune Knight and Samurai all give you good options to fall back on in social encounters. They're not great by any means, but absolutely should get at least a C.
It's worth noting that Battlemaster has one of the few ways to find out meta knowledge about somebody you're negotiating with through Know Your Enemy which can give you useful insight into options, and Echo Knight has the unique ability to literally do entire negotiations without you ever needing to actually be in harm's way.
The difference is that requires a pretty significant investment of a feature in order to be ok at it and it takes until 6th level for that ASI. The other persuasion boosts you mentioned require you to take specific subclasses. So I think a D ranking is fair since the video is talking about what the base class offers. Compared to any artificer, all their subclasses can take Guidance and (later) Enhance Ability and taking both really isn't nearly the same degree of investment (since both offer a considerable degree of versatility beyond just being a negotiator). Not to mention potentially getting expertise in Disguise Kits at 6th level (which per Xanathars can be beneficial for intimidation, deception, and persuasion checks related to your use of the kit). Then there is Flash of Genius at 7th level (which isn't that far from the 6th level ASI fighters get). So even if you don't take any of the infusion items that help with persuasion I think artificers are better at it than fighters.
@@dnddetective that's fair, I'd still say the fighter fairs much better than barbarian, monk, and ranger (minus the fey wander), given that about half of their subclasses boast a decent way to be on par with a low cha paladin, without heavy investments. I'd argue that artificer is a C as well
On the note of having to choose subtle spell, you also have to choose deception or persuasion for your expertise. So it’s not more building then the rogue or bard.
Fey wanderer Ranger with the expertise from canny and the bonuses from both wisdom and charisma stacking makes an amazing negotiator. The subclass also gives you spells like charm person and the druidic warrior fighting style means you will still be effective at combat if you pump wisdom.
Just wanna shout out the BM Fighter, as being a convincing negotiator, they can outclass just about anyone and are on par with bards if they level Charisma with their extra ASIs, not to mention ANY class can take the Skill Expert FEAT, and Var. Humans (at 1st lvl), Half-Elves and Half-Orcs (at 4th lvl ASI) can take the Prodigy feat getting access to potentially 2 skills with Expertise. Doing the math real quick, a high lvl BM human fighter who's taken the Commanding Presence Maneuver (which by the way isn't a spell that needs to be cast beforehand or that can be seen in the midst of a hairy situation), has a 14 (+2) Charisma, and took the Skill Exp. or Prodigy Feat for Exp. on Persuasion, with a straight roll, they will hit an average of 29 (d8-d12, so 5-7 avg. on commanding presence, 11 avg on a d20, and prof. bonus 4-6 x2 with exp for 8-12, +2 Charisma; 6+11+10+2=29*). The most important part of negotiation is being a good Role-player and making a good argument to lower a DC, or even just pass straight up by telling the individual/people what they want to hear. Admittedly the BM fighter does not have access to spells like enhance ability, but that's the point of having a party and if the party has a BARD too... there's almost no way to fail that check if you're playing it purely mechanically. If you truly want a non-caster class that can a lot of the time out preform any casters in persuasion/intimidation while also not having any sort of innate magic abilities themselves, this is a go-to pick. I'm purely basing this of a Negotiator viewpoint, not a rounded face of the party, but this could also slide into that role as well. I think with the criteria, Fighters as a WHOLE don't make it to S tier by any means with the exception of the BM, BUT they are solidly C tier IMO due to the versatility with extra ASIs, FEATS, and sometimes fighter-oriented backgrounds that can help with negotiation scenarios. I guess with that said if any class REALLY wanted to they could attempt to do this as well, but simply do not have the innate flexibility to do so easily. Bard, Fighter, Warlock, Ranger, they're all not that different if you want to build them for the same purpose, of course the Bard is innately gonna have a better start just by playing the character as intended, but I really don't think it's THAT MASSIVE of a landslide's difference between them and the other classes in the overall arc of a campaign. Thanks for listening to my Ted-Talk lol
So I wrote a super long response and then closed my browser :(. It's late, so I'll try to summarize. I agree that a charismatic fighter battlemaster sounds rad as all hell and would be a lot of fun. Maybe also add the commander's strike maneuver for another kind of social power. I only took issue with your saying the classes aren't that different and I wanted to show that the bard truly is a landslide victory in negotiation. The math below is based on fifth level bard, with a bard of charisma of 18, who chose proficiency in persuasion and intimidation, and also received expertise in both when they reached 3rd level. Fighter: 1d20 (11) + 1d8(5) +cha (2) + exp (6) = 24 Bard: 1d20 (11) + cha (4) + exp (6) = 21 So it sounds like the fighter beats the bard. But wait, we haven't considered the spell list. Let's just keep it basic. One of their cantrips is friends, which gives advantage on charisma checks. Bard: Adv-1d20 (14) +cha (4) + exp (6) = 24 Ok, so they're tied. Without expending any spell slots, the bard has hit an average of 24. But that's without considering the much stronger spells such as disguise self, suggestion, charm person, or fast friends. Hell, imagine an NPC that's panicked and afraid that revealing information will lead their master to kill them. The bard could cast heroism on them to bolster their courage and reveal the information. DM-contingent, but you get the point. The bard's list is just so flexible, making them good negotiators whether they need to persuade, intimidate, or lie. And eventually the sixth level spell Mass Suggestion is arguably the strongest crowd control ability in the entire game. As for the problem of the hairy situation, it's arguable to a DM that gift of gab or modify memory can alter their memory of you casting a spell. Finally, we haven't considered the fact that our bard hasn't received a feat yet. Let's pick lucky, giving us three dice to roll on that creature we casted friends on. Bard: 2xAdv-1d20 (16) +cha (4) + exp (6) = 26 The bard hits an average of 26 when we account for feats and a cantrip. And if it is a hairy situation, where spell-casting is not viable, the bard could just use lucky over and over if it's a real serious situation. And unlike commander's presence, lucky can be done AFTER the roll, so the player can be far more strategic about using it. And that is all without considering the subclass at all. An eloquence bard will cause so much high math that I'm too tired to calculate right now. It's almost impossible for them to roll less than 20, meaning their minimum roll is 20 and that will get you through 96% of all persuasion checks. now obviously, you make a strong case that a fighter could be a negotiator. And I agree that a C-tier is plausible. But it has to build that class by impairing everything else it can do. The bard above is still going to be an A+ utility, and A+ support class whereas the BM fighter will become a B+ damage-dealer. Still a solid negotiator and could work in the right campaign. But the bard really is a landslide negotiator that are fundamentally unique from what any other class can do. That being said, I'm seriously considering rolling your battlemaster build. But only if there are no bards in the party. Sounds like a really fun character. I did enjoy your Ted Talk and thank you for attending mine :)
Hey Dungeon Dudes! Just wanted to pitch the next tier ranking series. Can you rank the different monster types into tiers? Make a series for the new DMs too, not just the players. 🙂
Soulknife at level 11 with any good amount of charisma is going to do Negotiator great too. PsiWhispers, Psi-bolstered Knack, reliable talent. Going to happen. But that proves a point that should be clear - Rogues are really good at skills masses party roles with the most minimum of work.
For the sorcerer and subtle spell - it's a VERY popular choice outside of the persuasion aspect as it's a great anti-mage spell. You can't counterspell something cast with subtle spell - including counterspell.
One thing in a wizard's favor is that they can, one day, be a good negotiator, and the next day a dedicated blaster. Because a wizard can change spells completely each day, they can be whatever they want on any single encounter. All the other classes have to be built for that specific role, and lock themselves into a narrow role, but a wizard can mix it upd whenever, and however, they want..
I think the ranger has just enough to put them at a low C mostly because of the Fey Wanderer and the fact that this is probably the one part of play that languages can actually be useful. They’re still a low C because of the reliance on that one subclass, but not quite a D because there are at least a few spells in the other subclasses that can help. Also they do get expertise in one skill, which can make them helpful as well, though it does kinda hamper what they’re good at a touch when you’re doing that.
I’ve personally been wanting to make a hyper charismatic character, loosely based on Arno form ACu, but I was expecting the most reliable build to come from the rogue, maybe 3 levels of gloom stalker Ranger for stealth utility. The rogue though having dex and Cha being the top 2 stats, grabbing expertise on Stealth, deception, acrobatics, intimidation Plus feats: Actor, skulker, Prodigy (half-elf), skill expert, and skilled. 14 skill proficiencies and 6 expertises (last two go to persuasion, and athletics or sleight of hand) 16 skill proficiencies if I swap skulker for Eldritch adept at an early enough level to ensure I can still get expertise from deception and persuasion I’d pick up from beguiling influence Eldritch invocation. Really this was meant to pick up as many of the skills as possible.
Subtle Spell is like... one of the "required" metamagics. Its not just social situations, it makes your spellcasting immune to counterspell. It makes your counterspells immune to counterspell. Take Subtle spell!
It's sad that everybody forgets that draconic sorcerers get to had twice their proficiency bonus when interacting with dragons wich, lets be honest, is the negociations you do not want to mess up...
Will that even come up more than once or twice in each campaign though?
@@alexanderwizardjar9540 as everything in dnd, there's a campaign for everything. Some dragons are really present, others barely
Rarely comes up, so not very useful as it is too circumstantial. Just dip into 1 lvl of rogue and get persuasion and deception expertise and you're set against ALL creatures.
@@alexanderwizardjar9540 the one time it came up for me, I managed to befriend a red dragon at level 2. One of the best moments in my dnd life
Ok...now compare that to a Rogue or Bard who can get twice their proficiency bonus when interacting with *anything* (including dragons).
Once all these role ranking videos are done, I’d love to see a side-by-side comparison of all classes and all roles. Because I’m seeing some trends about which classes are high in everything and which are low in everything but don’t have time to pull up every video.
I feel like bard is just good at all skills
Yep. Final lists: bard, wizard, cleric, druid always good to great. Artificer, paladin, rogue, barbarian, fighter, ranger, situationally good to great. Sorcerer: below average to good. Monk and warlock: always bad.
@@kaynadinstilleverge3843 Maybe with this approach yeah although Sorcerer and Warlock are probably higher. I think Treantmonk's final subclass ranking is probably the closest to a true tier list. Top tier: Wizard, Bard, Paladin. Super Good: Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer. Decent: Ranger, Fighter, Warlock. Meh: Artificer, Rogue, Barb. Trash: Monk.
I've been keeping a spreadsheet. As of this video, Bards are strongly in the lead, followed by Druids. Fighters and Barbarians are at the bottom, barely beating out the Monk for last place.
But keep in mind, this isn't measuring class power. It's measuring class *diversity*
Thats easy: Full spellcasters: Mostly high. Half-casters: Mixed. None-casters: Mostly low.
The whole barbarian with good charisma is a cool idea, why don't we have something like a "path of the war chief" barbarian that could have battle master maneuvers that is tied to their cha score or something
You could make a gladiator subclass for them and it would fit perfectly for a charisma-based barbarian. Showing off while being big & muscley is their whole thing.
Just make a hexbarian, then you can pump charisma and have it be your attack stat. You're a couple points weaker on damage from losing out on rage damage but that isn't that big of a buff in the first place. You get a curse to put on things, and it only takes a couple of levels dip to get invocations for that massive social boost. The normal weakness of the warlock being not able to cast many spells a day kinda goes with the normal weakness of the barbarian not having much of a non-rage window to cast them in, so that's not even the problem most casters have being combined with the barbarian. Strength need never go beyond 13.
Barbarian with good charisma might mean sacrificing a more relevant stat like strength or constitution.
Dope concept
As cool as it sounds barbarians are among the most MAD martial classes. They need good Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution already.
Rogue as a negotiatior is heavily underrated due to the fact that you're a *Rogue* - you only need one stat to be effective. The secondary stat, while many say it should be CON, can be anything due to the playstyle of Rogues being reliant on *not* attracting attention and being hit. After all, you don't need HP if you're never under fire (and you shouldn't be).
Any Rogue subclass except Thief and Scout lends itself to negotiations. Assassin helps with disguises naturally and mimicry. Inquisitive is unfailing at Insight. Mastermind gets proficiencies in tools that can give leverage in negotiations and even look into the mental capabilities of your target. Soulknife gets self-inspiration so they never fail a check. Phantom can pick up skills on the fly when necessary and use the information of the dead as leverage. Arcane Trickster has enchantment as mainline spells. Swashbuckler relies on CHA as a secondary stat for multiple things. When you think about it, Rogue's features are universally *geared* towards "supporting those skills", which Monty said Rogues don't have.
It’s one of the weird things about this rating system. You don’t get the highest rating if you need to build for it. But I’m always considering rogue if there’s something I’m building for.
Indeed, I've run a spy rogue with charisma as their second highest stat, using good deception and performance for infiltration and sabotage.
Magic is the only thing that metters to Spelldudes jk
@@irwingbrasil seems to be so, ues
@@skycastrum5803So rogue is quintessential B tier.
Meanwhile, in my Drakkenheim campaign, a bad sneak roll lead to the Barbarian at my table needing to be an investigator and a negotiator, both of which she kept nailing high rolls on while the other 2 snuck around. Barbarian S Tier right there.
28:51 Fey Wanderers are the exception, adding wisdom to all charisma checks with extra prof. in persuasion or deception, charm person in their spell list and Beguiling twist with the option to counter charm a creature or turn a frightened condition into a charm condition to another creature
I also feel it can be noted that they can sub Natural Explorer with Deft Explorer, granting you an additional 2 free languages (which I personally feel can be a great benefit with the right DM... then again, I am on a ranger with 4 extra languages outside of Common, so...)
Don't forget Jack of All Trades for Bards. Even if they don't pick all 4 charisma skills, they're still likely going to have the highest modifier in the party for the ones they don't pick.
And borrowed knowledge + enhance ability is available for instant mastery of any skill if needed.
The Fey Wanderer Ranger really has some stuff going on. That is THE subclass for a negotiator Ranger
A Druidic Warrior/Polearm Master Fey Wanderer who has even middling charisma and uses Canny to get expertise in Persuasion will be an S-tier negotiator while still being a dangerous melee fighter and better than most other Rangers at wisdom skills and spellcasting
They didn’t even mention Fey Wanderer. I was expecting a C tier.
Fey Wanderer also got that double summons going on. A real power package.
I have a Level 20 Druid-14, Ranger-5, Rouge-1 Fey Wonderer that rocks, with Proficiency, and a +13 Bonus on Deception and Persuasion, with Advantage from Enhance Ability Spell on each. And his CHA was dumped and is only 12 CHA +1, lol. Definitely an S-Tier in my book.
Gloomstalker also has Disguise Self on its spell list which goes a long way.
Calling it now, S tier is bard.
Has to be the barbarian, who’s gonna argue against someone that can crush skulls with their biceps
Literally no way you could be wrong
Ah, yes. "Negotiation."
Or a rogue
Don't forget Warlock
One thing for the artificer and by extension the forge cleric is that they can barter and triad a service
This may fall under roll play but not a lot of classes can say “I am an expert and can do this for you” outside of theft and combat
... but a lot of backgrounds can, and any class can have any of them.
@@Torthrodhel Agreed. Artificers and Forge Clerics don't have a monopoly on that.
Right, they don’t but those classes can make and trade things with supported class features it’s not perfect but I have seen artificers trade there inventions and services to There social capitol
I know all classes can do this but artificers are on of the few classes that make stuff and put a lot on crafting
Any PC could do it but an Artificer can do it with out focusing on it
That’s why I don’t think it should be D but a C
I actually used my Artificer's expertise in tools to help barter against merchants. They can't get past high investigation checks and tool expertise when my Artificer would argue "Hey, I know exactly what X is, I know how to make them, and they are NOT this expensive! Also, your magic Y is actually not magical at all. You will NOT be able to swindle me on this."
@@benhamilton3009 All PC's can do this with a bit of downtime and creativity or by finding the thing to give to them. Most characters have some tool proficiencies from backgrounds that they can use to provide a service with.
The one thing I wish was discussed more is how to make negotiation / social interaction more than just a Charisma skill exchange: contests of strength, knowledge share for intelligence, and acrobatics or slight of hand to impress people, a drinking contest with constitution, gaining followers via sharing wisdom...
Also, some people don't like the Charisma-type social manipulators, so being clever with words might be a detriment.
I realize, that takes a really great DM, but I love making the social pillar as exciting as combat for everyone.
In the right campaign the Druid could wild shape into The HypnoToad and be the ultimate negotiator.
The Barbarian is the passionate counter point to the logical character. Bard: "We've negotiated the great cease fire in the war." Barbarian: "No... they must leave or die." Bard (fails intimidation save): "ok, I'll be right back."
Y’all sleeping on the artificer.
Again, it’s a prepared caster. This was build up quite a bit for the cleric and not for the artificer.
Artificer has ritual casting.
You get access to the guidance cantrip which is probably going to be chosen regardless of if your building to be a “face” substitute.
Flash of genius lets you add your intelligence to your checks or saves as a reaction. This is used after you know you’ve already failed, and so it’s less likely to be wasted.
You can very easily choose enhance ability to be your 2nd level spell choice for your spell storing item feature. 8 to 10 extra castings of enhance ability can go a long way with almost universal advantage on checks available.
Base class artificer with no invocations or charisma attribute investment can be better than a paladin.
I feel the same way, but what you said is way more thought out then what I said though. Long story short you can essentially have expertise in persuasion checks involving alcohol starting at 6th level, and that's in addition to everything you said
If the DM is even little bit lenient, strength/intimidation is one of the most common examples of using the variant rule of skills with different abilities, it's even listed in PHB. This plays into hands of barbarians, fighters, and other meat shields - they can intimidate enemies to do (or not do) something with a display of raw beefiness.
I'm playing a barbarian in our campaign, and I actually am the negotiator. My other 2 party member are a wizard and a druid, neither with a good CHA score or proficiency in Persuasion, meanwhile I have 14 CHA (highest in the party), and are proficient in Persuasion and Intimidation.
Let me axe you a question.
@@isaacgraff8288 Unfortunately, I'm using a greatsword. But I do got 2 handaxes as well.
S - Bard: glibness/detect thoughts/suggestion/enhance ability + expertise with core skill
A - Rogue: reliable talent, expertise
Fey Wanderer ranger is amazing a social skills, it class as a whole is not that great. Can get expertise with Canny!
Agreed, this one slipped through the cracks a bit
true, but the dudes have said that one subclass having really good abilities in a party role such as negotiator does not have give a class the A or S tier. Overall, the Ranger isn't a great negotiator
With the Ranger you can build it - but the base class really is not great for that. Even if the best battle speech in LotR was by the quintessential Ranger, rangers very often are party leaders - in 5e they are not negotiators. And I love Rangers.
Not really fey wanderer is one subclass and they actually explained their reasoning with rogue. You actually need to build your rogue for that since not all of the rogues choose expertise on their social skills or have high charisma scores. Also reliable talent comes at level 11 and that is actually pretty late most campaigns don't last that long.
They would argue it's one class though
This series works as a pretty good measure of which classes are the most and least versatile. If you look at the highest ranked classes its Bard, Druid, and Wizard in descending order, which makes sense from a versatility standpoint.
My gaming group just finished a short campaign that was an all-Bard party. This sort of thing is an interesting way to examine these party roles, as it behooves the player during creation mode to get specific in their builds. In this vein, an all-Barbarian party (which isn’t a crazy notion - that’s what their society is, right) is going to be sorely lacking in a number of party-roles (particularly according to you fellas). It got me thinking: is that what makes them Barbarians? A lack of negotiation, investigation, and “party face”….?
an all barbarian party is going to miss more on utility and support
it's not a lack of negotiation that makes them a barbarian. it's using their axe when negotiating that makes them a barbarian.
I'd love to join that rage party.
@@Fektthis To a degree negotiatian, can also be done through torture. A barbarian would certainly be able to hurt the person, so it would influence the ranking a little bit, barbarians can't heal so what if they go to far? The healer feat can be a good aid, but it's not really their style. Compare to cleric, ranger (and fey wanderer would be even better), druid, artificer and paladin would all probably get a more significant boost to their ranking. (bards get healing, but they don't need the boost as they are already leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else) Even the specific subclasses of Mercy, divine soul and celestial would be in a better position than for example a fighter.
What do you think a torturer tier list would look like?
I wouldn’t say the barbarian CLASS is the same as a barbarian SOCIETY. You can have a barbarian society where there are shamans and trackers and craftsmen. People who use bows and slings and magic. An all barbarian CLASS party isn’t really representing a barbarian society as a whole. It’s just showing the biggest strongest ones that have that lust or drive or fighting spirit that aligns with the rage mechanic.
I love the idea of a charming Barbarian. A dashing swashbuckler whose rage is flavoured as getting absurdly lucky.
I wanted to drop by on this video to say that I've recently been looking to start some campaigns of my own, and I wanted to tell you just how much I'm loving your channel, and how well you go through every aspect of D&D in such a way that a first-time newb like myself can grasp. I've gained so much knowledge from watching you guys, and I can't thank you enough for having this channel up! Please continue to keep up the amazing work!
I would love to see the Dungeon Dude's rate the subclasses from the Kobold Press books: Tome of Hero's, Midgard Hero's Handbook, Southlands Hero's Handbook, and Deep Magic. They have a few Barbarian subclasses that are made for leadership style characters, it's so freaking cool.
I feel like tools are underrated. With all the tool proficiencies you can get as artificer, you can easily grab proficiency with the brewer's supplies, and at 6th level you would have situational expertise in persuasion (only when alcohol is involved), combined with enhance ability for advantage. That should make you at least above average at being the negotiator without really sacrificing anything
The artwork for your next book is absolutely amazing. Great work from the team on that.
personally I think between the Samurai, battle master, and technically champion (any fighter can get superior technique and the champion can get two fighting styles so they benefit even more from it) giving fighters pretty sizeable buffs to persuasion they at least deserve a C, a samurai with the superior technique could without struggling too much get a ridiculously high persuasion modifier (obviously this role is about more than just persuasion but it is an important factor)
Purple dragon knight fighter gets expertise in persuasion
@@PUNishment777 yeah but purple dragon knight sucks overall so... yeah
They also forgot to mention Eldritch Knights can bring spells with them to assist in negotiations as they access the Wizard spell list, and the fact that Echo Knights can literally conduct an entire negotiation without ever needing to actually be in harm's way.
@@TheHandgunhero Eldritch Knights must take spell from evocation and abjuration list, save for one at 3rd, 8th, 14th, 20th level. So an Eldrich Knights without extra feats could only now 4 spells that aren't evocation or abjuration (and two only very late in level).
@@fabiovarra3698 This is still enough to pick up some basic intrigue spells. Keep in mind, you don't need many spells to augment your combat as an Eldritch Knight because your martial characteristics are already covered by virtue of playing a Fighter. It's not amazing, but it still does more for negotiations than other D ranked classes offer.
Been waiting for this one! Charisma classes are my favorite, but i can definitely guess that the bard is gonna take home the crown. Still cant wait to see how my warlock ranks tho!
Yea warlock’s my favourite class hands down and, while doing pretty average, I feel like they got shafted in some of these.
But yea, no one’s arguing that bard wins this… easily
My character, Dr. Devil, is a Tiefling Artificer Artillerist / Celestial Warlock. I use the protector cannon to give Temp HP to my team and use my pact of the chain IMP familiar, named Mini Me, to carry it while flying invisibly. The cannon being a magical object then too become invisible.
The character is a devil, uses infernal contraptions, and indeed the devil is in the details. Dr. Devil's charisma score is 20 and is good at negotiations.
Did you take gift of the ever living ones?
@@benjaminkowal7310 At level 8 I haven't gained enough levels yet. I plan on taking it.
so what you're saying is a bard with the Metamagic Adept feat to get subtle spell?
as someone who loves mixing and matching abilities and skills, I think there's more flexibility. I'll give that Barbarian Strength (Intimidation) or that Cleric Wisdom (Persuasion) if the players make a case for it. A creature with a high INT score maybe more inclined to listen to the wizard's logic - Intelligence (Persuasion) - than the bard's emotional appeal. The only drawback I've found is a lot of my games are online and that isn't as conducive to creativity.
I really like this use of the "Skills with Different Abilities" mechanic (PHB p. 175), and I'd like to see it implemented in more VTTs, even though it's pretty easy to do the math.
Listened to the first part of this yesterday, finished it today. Monty had me screaming in my car when he talked about a "Skald." I want that so desperately but rage and spells don't like each other. I'm pretty sure Pathfinder 1E has hybrid classes, with Skald being one of them. The hybrid classes in Pathfinder are cool (like Bloodrager i think, Barb/Sorcerer) but they're basically just the counterpart to multiclassing in 5e
Let's go, dudes.
Artificer- High C. You are an expert in what you do, but usually that's not talking.
Barbarian-I disagree heavily here, and give the Barbarian a C. If you go into skills at all, Barbarians want to intimidate. Cha checks, then, are flavorful to start with, and though the typical interaction is 'Do you really wanna mess with me?' that's still a negotiation. They aren't experts, by far, but exactly on point for them.
Bard-S. No contest. This is, hands down, their thing.
Cleric-B. Flexible spellcasting helps, and Guidance/Bless can make anything work.
Driud-C. Druids don't necessarily need to dump Cha, but with nothing to boost it...
Fighter-Low C. Much like Barbarians, they can act as a deterrent negotiator too. They have enough to help, but are far from the face.
Monk-D. Unlike Fighter and Barbarian, your dependence on Wisdom means you can't really focus Cha in any way. They are too MAD.
Paladin-High B. They can use the Fighter and Barb tactic, while adding a few spells to boost the opposite. Expertise holds it back, plus being only a half caster, so...
Ranger- Much like the monk, this is too MAD to help, and the spell list hurts. D.
Rogue-A. Expertise matters, and Rogues need a way, when they get caught sneaking, to live. Cha matters then, and many Rogues use it. It does wonders.
Sorcerer-Low A. Subtle spell matters.
Warlock-High B. The flavor of this class is negotiating their power to begin with. Not leaning into it hurts a hair. Their lack of slots hurts, and lacking expertise matters too, but they can easily be a face.
Wizard-Low B. As a master of spells, they can buff, but Cha is typically lower since they use Int.
If there is one thing I have learned from watching these party role tier list videos, is that you could honestly just make a group of all bards, have each member fill the roles, and simply win D&D.
@@Wintermute909 sounds like you’ve had antagonistic DMs. Or you are one.
36:50 if I can get 2 metamagics, subtle spell is not a choice to me.
As a sorcerer you don't get an awful lot of spells, so I want to either build towards heightened spell targets, twinned spell targets, take quickened spell if don't have a focus and just want an extra cantrip, and always the second slot going to subtle spell. You ARE going to encounter a situation where you either can't or don't want to visibly cast a spell. In those situations subtle spell is a life saver.
In my games where enemy casters use counterpell a lot, subtle spell is essential!!
@@Miggy19779 exactly, subtle spell is a great anticaster.
I have a character concept where I have an "anti wizard" sorcerer gnome. That specific gnome subrace gives the silence spell, and subtle spell silence just obliterates enemy magic users. When it's subtle spell, it's likely that the enemy caster doesn't notice what happened, so it will waste its turn casting a spell that won't launch.
@@Miggy19779 Lol I just saw that some dude had replied "twinned spell is the worst metamagic" to me, then removed that comment over the last day. I am assuming he has found enough reason to debunk himself as... surprise twinned single target concentration spells are amazing... It is amazing to get that kind of W against dumb comments without trying 😂
@@Olav_Hansen facepalm. Twinned, subtle, quickened, all amazing. There's even niche uses for distant spell to surprise casters with 120 ft counterspell if you want to troll, and the metamagic adept is a great addition, TWO extra metamagic and 2 sorcery points? Hell yeah. I even give this feat to all my wizard characters for emergency subtle spell.
I miss the Thaneborn Barbarian from 4E. 5E needs something like that. Great analysis, guys!
Kelly twisting the knife in the Purple Dragon Knight, oooof.😵 I am currently playing one (my 1st character with this group) in a long running campaign, but just made plans with the DM to have them change subclasses.👍
Artificer's Flash of Genius should have counted for enough to lift them to C. It's not a spell that would give them away and it can be used plenty. It's at a somewhat higher level, but the spell storing item can disguise the whole party or provide a healthy enhance ability bank. Finally, they have tons of practical ability to negotiate trades in kind.
It's funny when going over Sorcerer that Clockwork Soul got mentioned but not Aberrant Mind. With their expanded spell list getting Enchantment spells you can easily stack up on those spells that would best benefit for negotiation without counting against your spells known.
Not to mention that their level 6 psionic sorcery feature has a subtle spell component baked into it.
@@jordanw2741 unlimited telepathy has to have some way to be used for it as well.
Monty: “I’m gonna play that Purple Dragon Knight.”
Kelly: *stares daggers directly into the camera
Cha>Dex Bard-Fighter face, no instrument but is a skjald-type a'capella sprechgesang with a dash of juggling.
He can use the balls or knives as weapons as needed alongside the mace he keeps at his side - As a bounty hunter, he collects information while peacocking in the taverns or town square. Think of Thom Merrilin from WOT but without the harp/flute and a touch of Wit from Stormlight. He's gone from a mumbling homeless dude to a catering waiter to a dashing courtier in ~3min
Fighter: The Rune Knight's most commonly used runes grant advantage on Insight and Deception, valuable negotiation skills.
Subtle spell is actually so good, not just for negotiations but also in a campaign with lots of Spellcasters to avoid counterspells
I think the enchantment wizard is an interesting negotiator, since they rely on their intelligence and spells more than charisma. I'm sure they cover it in the video, but I haven't gotten to that part yet.
If you had metamagic adept or levels in sorcerer and could get those spells off without showcasing it with subtle spell oh yeah.
So, another victory for the bard, best class in general
So far, the bard get straight A's and S's with the exception of the frontliner, which can have an A on the right build
Kelly and Monty I've been loving your class role rankings. My question, from you guys experience and talking with others, what is the hardest role to fill in a party most of the time?
Eloquence Bard with a dip into Rogue for the extra expertise. Also a little extra damage if you literally stab someone in the back after lulling them into a false sense of security.
Also the Courtier background to crush your enemies with the power of municipal bureaucracy.
Agree 100% about Bard being S ranking. I want to point out that the things they say about it "being casually good" and how it could possibly be an A ranking is exactly why I thought Rogue was S tier investigator and why Wizard was B tier investigator, a few videos back. With bard, it is totally possible to go out of your way to make them someone who isn't the face of the party, if that is the concept you want to explore! But you will likely still have passive skills just because of your CHA score.
This again has me thinking about the 4e warlord. I really think 5e could benefit from a cha/int based martial support class. This also being because int is so under represented.
One of the things that this video has taught me is that if you want to be good at (almost) everything, play a bard.
They lack good defensive spells and in combat often struggle to do reliable damage...fun to play though and imho with magic items (bards have some awesome ones)....defense and combat strength can be fixed.
Thank you for doing these videos, Dudes, they are fun, informative and well made :D
I think you’re underselling the Artificer. Negotiation is a role that relies heavily on skill checks. With Guidance, Enhance Ability and Flash of Genius, even an Artificer with a +2 Cha can be rolling +11+1d4 with advantage by 9th level, without any specific build choices except proficiency in Persuasion. And with the way they prepare spells, they can choose Enhance Ability, Disguise Self, etc. and switch them out when they head into the dungeon.
Add in Infusions like Eyes of Charming, Helm of Telepathy and Medallion of Thoughts, which again can be switched out for combat days, and I think you really have something.
If you want to build just a little for it, you can throw in Skill Expert and your average roll by level 9 could be around 30, while still having +5 Int and +3 Con so you’re not falling behind anywhere else.
Edit 2: Seriously? A- for a Paladin and C- for an Artificer? To me, that’s wild. The only thing they have over Artificers is an average of about 2-3 more Cha points, which Guidance alone can make up. Everything else about the Paladin is worse.
I DM for an eloquence bard and it presents a really interesting challenge for me. Luckily my other players are also very chatty but trying to reward her ridiculous persuasiveness in a balanced way is its own little DMing skill. I am coping just fine, but I would definitely like to see your thoughts on dealing with OP characters like this from a DM perspective at some point.
One more bonus for sorcerers: Magical Guidance at 5th level lets you spend a sorcery point to re-roll any ability check you fail. So when you brick that crucial Deception or Persuasion check, give yourself another shot!
On the topic of barbarian having more skill proficiencies and stuff, I do actually think I would love to add a homebrew ability to Barbarians, and possibly Fighters or Paladins that use certain subclasses, that lets them substitute Strength in place of Charisma for Intimidation rolls. In this way, not all classes could benefit from this, but classes that WOULD actually be intimidating can actually, statistically, game functionally, be good at intimidating. The big guy in armor with the sword shouldn't have a -1 to intimidation because Charimsa is his dump stat. The guy that looks like he drinks blood from a skull and carries an axe with a head bigger than a halfling absolutely should not have a negative in Intimidation.
This would be specifically for certain classes. Barbarians in general, Vengeance Paladins, Champion Fighters, etc. I hardly think it would break the game or make them unbalanced, and it's so disappointing to make this big bulky fighter you view as this intimidating fellow, but because of game mechanics, nobody takes him seriously. And it's just for Intimidation, not all Charisma based checks in general.
completely agree - my DM has sometimes allowed me to do something cool in combat and they try and intimidate my foes using Strength rather than Charisma - and as Throkk is a half orc, he gets proficiency in Intimidation as well as his Strength bonus in this case!
Vengeance paladins wouldn't have a negative in charisma though they would at least have a 13 in cha
Players Handbook does allow that.
Wow, you guys finally found one thing that you DON'T think a Sorcerer totally sucks at.
Color me amazed.
"Thats the biggest landslide ever" -Monty. His laugh while he said that made me so happy
I think the Artificer initiate feat should have just given some tool proficiencies and 1 artificer infusion of the players choice.
I built a cleric that feels like a bard. 16CHA, entertainer background, expertise in Persuasion (Skill Expert feat). I did it so well that for several sessions, the other players kept thinking he was in fact a bard. Even after I revealed he was a cleric in the second session by using Channel divinity.
The real tier list I'm waiting to see is on about Kelly's evolution of hair styles lol I love the content fellas
The Barbarian at my table is currently the main negotiator. He speaks two languages that nobody else in the party speaks and those are currently very relevant. Also, one boon of his goddess (it’s a Theros campaign) gives him advantage on persuasion checks while within a city.
There is a subclass on Drivethrurpg that can give you some charismatic Barbarian options called the Path of the gladiator.
Well I think this discussion missed out on a very important part of negotiations: insight. It's not just charisma but also wisdom to understand the other parties motivations and detect in these negotiations if there honest.
With my bard (13th level swords bard) I have expertise in arcana, deception, persuasion, and insight. It's really nice when I do the negotiating.
Even though wisdom is a dump stat I still have a +8 to insight.
I like the rogue for S, I know the bard will get it but I feel that that is due to spell use, in mid to high level play at any important negotation there should be someone with detect magic on to keep the parties honest, here reliable talent is key, and bard losses out a little.
Plus swahbuckler has a none magical charm person effect and is insentivised towards good charisma anyway.
I hope after they do all these roll tier lists they do conclusion videos for each class. Giving each roll and how it was ranked. Really show what classes are good at and what they are bad at, and maybe point out pain points in this and solutions to them.
It's funny just last night, my aberrant mind sorcerer talked his way through then entire dungeon lead by Ras-Nsi in tomb of annihilation without a single attack roll.
Going through Strahd right now, and my Grave Domain Cleric wound up being the party face, even with a Sorcerer in the party. I guess just thematically it made sense with my subclass and backstory
I know it was not brought up, but if we did subclass specific, a fey wanderer ranger is probably an A as you get to add your wisdom to your charisma checks, and with druidic warrior, a d10 hit dice, shilelagh, half plate and a shield makes you a solid frontling character that can use polearm master via a quarterstaff, and is also very good at being the face via skills, and don't knock enhance ability too, granted it is the exception that proves the rule, but that build is probably a solid A rank
Edit: if we add on the tasha's features, you can end up with 6-7 languages known and expertise in your face skill of choice, and fey touched and skill expert start to look really good too
a warlock is like your older brother’s box of legos. you have to build, and you can build just about anything from it, it’s just going to be a bit of work and might look kind of funny at the end. but you know, sometimes there’s just enough black bricks to have the front face look fine, as long as you don’t mind the rest of the set being all multi colored.
Cleric as Negotiator? One word; Empathy. Insight is a key to understand and relate to what is going on and from that make propositions.
The Ranger is undervalued here. They get a seriously good subclass for this specific role in the Fey Wanderer which should earn them at least a C. Plus a good amount of Expertise from TCE and something you didn't mention at all, a huge number of languages which can also factor in negotiation.
Totally, and they can have expertise and Enhance ability.
The wild look on the face of the Apothecary class from the new kickstarter (Sebastian Crowe's Guide to Drakkenheim) makes me wonder how good she would be at interrogation.
Hey guys, loving the content as always. Super new to D&D but it's struck me as odd that intimidation is a charisma based skill rather than strength. Maybe there should be a feat that allows you to use your strength mod for intimidation instead of charisma. Lets be honest, there's not a lot more intimidating than having to stare up at 6' 3" meat shield. :o)
Generally that is covered under the PHB rules on 175 with variant skill attributes. They specifically call out the Strength intimidation option. You just have to get the DM to actually do it. Which shouldn't be hard since it is 100% RAW and makes sense like you said
Also, only one of Ranger's subclassess states Charisma as important, and that is the Fey Wanderer, but even then, only a small handful of abilities they get as a Fey Wanderer that specifically names Charisma as an important component.
Thank you for acknowledging that barbarians can be stealthy! I love this video.
The thing that helps paladins in negotiations is that the class often implies a social status that opens doors for interacting with people adventurers often need to negotiate with in good faith (and that often can't easily be enspelled or intimidated).
Artificers get access to both Guidance and Enhance Ability then later on Flash of Genius. Not to mention more niche options like getting access to Eyes of Charming as an infusion. They are clearly not the best but I would put them in the C tier at least.
I mean, the bard was a no brainer. Concerning the rogue often coming in much like the bard, the bard use to be a part od the rogue class so it makes sense
Some maths, assuming level 10 and reasonable builds, on a persuasion check:
Bard: min 23, max 33, expected 28 - using 20CHA (+5), Expertise and level 10 (+8), College of Eloquence Silver Tongue (EV on a d20 becomes 12.75), Silver Tongue plus Friends (grants advantage on a d20, nothing lower than 10, EV is now 14.54).
Paladin: min 14, max 33, expected 23.5 - using 18CHA (+4), proficiency at level 10 (+4), Oath of Redemption Emissary of peace (+5), no adjustment to d20 roll (min1, max 20, EV 10.5)
Assuming you don't have two bards, the best possible persuasion check at level 10 would be for a bard to use bardic inspiration on an Oath of Redemption Paladin, another caster to use Enhance Ability (Eagle's Grace), the paladin to burn a channel divinity to use Emissary of Peace, and all dice to roll at their max. Assuming an 18CHA Paladin...
This would be a total of 43, and has a 0.975% chance of happening.
Please feel free to check me on that.
There is the possibility of multiclassing and getting both Silver Tongue AND Emissary of Peace. That would be Bard 4, Paladin 4 (to get both ASIs to put 20CHA in play), plus 2 levels in anything else.
Then stack expertise, level 10 proficiency (+8), 20CHA (+5), Emissary of Peace (+5), and Silver Tongue plus Friends (EV 14.54)...
That gives you min 28, max 38, expected value of 33.
To which if you have a full bard in the party to give you inspiration and you roll a ten...
Theoretically, a 48 could happen, again at just slightly less than 1% probability.
I really like the Dungeon Dudes party roles videos but id like to see differentiation between which classes fill each role and also fall into dps or control.
You guys just inspired me to make a barbarian leader subclass and I think I have just the thing.
My favorite moment was Kelly's face at 20:58 xD
One thing about the Wizard that may not be taken into account because it's not really a class feature, but in a negotiation context it is probably assumed by everyone present that the high-Int Wizard is aware of all possibilities and is a master strategist, which may cow all but the most shrewd of opponents. Just a thought! Playing my Wizard and just outsmarting everyone to force them into negotiations that are bad for them is great.
I think the best role for a cleric and wizard in negotiations is as an adviser, who can assist the negotiator by making Int and Wis skill checks to provide accurate info to the Bard via Telepathic Bond.
I've been playing a sorcerer in a campaign and am the face of the party. I LOVE using subtle spell detect thoughts! Makes conversing with NPCs very fun!
I'd say fighter has enough "ribbons" as they call them to warrant a C, if you are using the barbarian and Artificer as the basis of D ranking. With the extra ASIs to grab non-mandatory stats and feats and the many paths to little persuasion buffs (PDK, Samurai, battlemaster abilities, or even charm person on an eldritch knight), they at least rival druid
Yeah Fighter definitely has more going for it than the other D rankings. And yes, the options are baked into the subclasses, but the difference with Fighter is that SEVERAL subclasses actually give you options and not just 1 or 2. Battlemaster, Echo Knight, Eldritch Knight, Purple Dragon Knight, Rune Knight and Samurai all give you good options to fall back on in social encounters.
They're not great by any means, but absolutely should get at least a C.
It's worth noting that Battlemaster has one of the few ways to find out meta knowledge about somebody you're negotiating with through Know Your Enemy which can give you useful insight into options, and Echo Knight has the unique ability to literally do entire negotiations without you ever needing to actually be in harm's way.
The difference is that requires a pretty significant investment of a feature in order to be ok at it and it takes until 6th level for that ASI. The other persuasion boosts you mentioned require you to take specific subclasses. So I think a D ranking is fair since the video is talking about what the base class offers.
Compared to any artificer, all their subclasses can take Guidance and (later) Enhance Ability and taking both really isn't nearly the same degree of investment (since both offer a considerable degree of versatility beyond just being a negotiator). Not to mention potentially getting expertise in Disguise Kits at 6th level (which per Xanathars can be beneficial for intimidation, deception, and persuasion checks related to your use of the kit).
Then there is Flash of Genius at 7th level (which isn't that far from the 6th level ASI fighters get). So even if you don't take any of the infusion items that help with persuasion I think artificers are better at it than fighters.
@@dnddetective that's fair, I'd still say the fighter fairs much better than barbarian, monk, and ranger (minus the fey wander), given that about half of their subclasses boast a decent way to be on par with a low cha paladin, without heavy investments. I'd argue that artificer is a C as well
On the note of having to choose subtle spell, you also have to choose deception or persuasion for your expertise. So it’s not more building then the rogue or bard.
Fey wanderer Ranger with the expertise from canny and the bonuses from both wisdom and charisma stacking makes an amazing negotiator. The subclass also gives you spells like charm person and the druidic warrior fighting style means you will still be effective at combat if you pump wisdom.
Just wanna shout out the BM Fighter, as being a convincing negotiator, they can outclass just about anyone and are on par with bards if they level Charisma with their extra ASIs, not to mention ANY class can take the Skill Expert FEAT, and Var. Humans (at 1st lvl), Half-Elves and Half-Orcs (at 4th lvl ASI) can take the Prodigy feat getting access to potentially 2 skills with Expertise.
Doing the math real quick, a high lvl BM human fighter who's taken the Commanding Presence Maneuver (which by the way isn't a spell that needs to be cast beforehand or that can be seen in the midst of a hairy situation), has a 14 (+2) Charisma, and took the Skill Exp. or Prodigy Feat for Exp. on Persuasion, with a straight roll, they will hit an average of 29
(d8-d12, so 5-7 avg. on commanding presence, 11 avg on a d20, and prof. bonus 4-6 x2 with exp for 8-12, +2 Charisma; 6+11+10+2=29*).
The most important part of negotiation is being a good Role-player and making a good argument to lower a DC, or even just pass straight up by telling the individual/people what they want to hear. Admittedly the BM fighter does not have access to spells like enhance ability, but that's the point of having a party and if the party has a BARD too... there's almost no way to fail that check if you're playing it purely mechanically.
If you truly want a non-caster class that can a lot of the time out preform any casters in persuasion/intimidation while also not having any sort of innate magic abilities themselves, this is a go-to pick. I'm purely basing this of a Negotiator viewpoint, not a rounded face of the party, but this could also slide into that role as well. I think with the criteria, Fighters as a WHOLE don't make it to S tier by any means with the exception of the BM, BUT they are solidly C tier IMO due to the versatility with extra ASIs, FEATS, and sometimes fighter-oriented backgrounds that can help with negotiation scenarios. I guess with that said if any class REALLY wanted to they could attempt to do this as well, but simply do not have the innate flexibility to do so easily.
Bard, Fighter, Warlock, Ranger, they're all not that different if you want to build them for the same purpose, of course the Bard is innately gonna have a better start just by playing the character as intended, but I really don't think it's THAT MASSIVE of a landslide's difference between them and the other classes in the overall arc of a campaign.
Thanks for listening to my Ted-Talk lol
So I wrote a super long response and then closed my browser :(. It's late, so I'll try to summarize.
I agree that a charismatic fighter battlemaster sounds rad as all hell and would be a lot of fun. Maybe also add the commander's strike maneuver for another kind of social power. I only took issue with your saying the classes aren't that different and I wanted to show that the bard truly is a landslide victory in negotiation. The math below is based on fifth level bard, with a bard of charisma of 18, who chose proficiency in persuasion and intimidation, and also received expertise in both when they reached 3rd level.
Fighter: 1d20 (11) + 1d8(5) +cha (2) + exp (6) = 24
Bard: 1d20 (11) + cha (4) + exp (6) = 21
So it sounds like the fighter beats the bard. But wait, we haven't considered the spell list. Let's just keep it basic. One of their cantrips is friends, which gives advantage on charisma checks.
Bard: Adv-1d20 (14) +cha (4) + exp (6) = 24
Ok, so they're tied. Without expending any spell slots, the bard has hit an average of 24. But that's without considering the much stronger spells such as disguise self, suggestion, charm person, or fast friends. Hell, imagine an NPC that's panicked and afraid that revealing information will lead their master to kill them. The bard could cast heroism on them to bolster their courage and reveal the information. DM-contingent, but you get the point. The bard's list is just so flexible, making them good negotiators whether they need to persuade, intimidate, or lie. And eventually the sixth level spell Mass Suggestion is arguably the strongest crowd control ability in the entire game. As for the problem of the hairy situation, it's arguable to a DM that gift of gab or modify memory can alter their memory of you casting a spell.
Finally, we haven't considered the fact that our bard hasn't received a feat yet. Let's pick lucky, giving us three dice to roll on that creature we casted friends on.
Bard: 2xAdv-1d20 (16) +cha (4) + exp (6) = 26
The bard hits an average of 26 when we account for feats and a cantrip. And if it is a hairy situation, where spell-casting is not viable, the bard could just use lucky over and over if it's a real serious situation. And unlike commander's presence, lucky can be done AFTER the roll, so the player can be far more strategic about using it.
And that is all without considering the subclass at all. An eloquence bard will cause so much high math that I'm too tired to calculate right now. It's almost impossible for them to roll less than 20, meaning their minimum roll is 20 and that will get you through 96% of all persuasion checks.
now obviously, you make a strong case that a fighter could be a negotiator. And I agree that a C-tier is plausible. But it has to build that class by impairing everything else it can do. The bard above is still going to be an A+ utility, and A+ support class whereas the BM fighter will become a B+ damage-dealer. Still a solid negotiator and could work in the right campaign. But the bard really is a landslide negotiator that are fundamentally unique from what any other class can do.
That being said, I'm seriously considering rolling your battlemaster build. But only if there are no bards in the party. Sounds like a really fun character.
I did enjoy your Ted Talk and thank you for attending mine :)
Nice to hear one of Wilhelm’s rules being used in the reasoning.
Hey Dungeon Dudes! Just wanted to pitch the next tier ranking series. Can you rank the different monster types into tiers? Make a series for the new DMs too, not just the players. 🙂
All week ive been thinking of making a char of commerce and negotiation,and up pops this video lol thank you.
Soulknife at level 11 with any good amount of charisma is going to do Negotiator great too. PsiWhispers, Psi-bolstered Knack, reliable talent. Going to happen. But that proves a point that should be clear - Rogues are really good at skills masses party roles with the most minimum of work.
I just got my Drakkenheim lootbox last night and I am so thrilled with every little thing! The Rat Prince plushy is my wife's favorite!!!
*raspy cyborg voice*
Ah, yes. The Negotiator!
The Apothecary sounds so dope!
For the sorcerer and subtle spell - it's a VERY popular choice outside of the persuasion aspect as it's a great anti-mage spell. You can't counterspell something cast with subtle spell - including counterspell.
One thing in a wizard's favor is that they can, one day, be a good negotiator, and the next day a dedicated blaster. Because a wizard can change spells completely each day, they can be whatever they want on any single encounter. All the other classes have to be built for that specific role, and lock themselves into a narrow role, but a wizard can mix it upd whenever, and however, they want..
I think the ranger has just enough to put them at a low C mostly because of the Fey Wanderer and the fact that this is probably the one part of play that languages can actually be useful. They’re still a low C because of the reliance on that one subclass, but not quite a D because there are at least a few spells in the other subclasses that can help. Also they do get expertise in one skill, which can make them helpful as well, though it does kinda hamper what they’re good at a touch when you’re doing that.
Kelly: The votes are mostly in line with our viewpoints. . .
Monty: IT’S THE BIGGEST LANDSLIDE EVER!!!!!
The two of them are so different
"At 3rd level, you can use your STR modifier for intimidation checks." Why is this NOT a standard barbarian feature?
I’ve personally been wanting to make a hyper charismatic character, loosely based on Arno form ACu, but I was expecting the most reliable build to come from the rogue, maybe 3 levels of gloom stalker Ranger for stealth utility.
The rogue though having dex and Cha being the top 2 stats, grabbing expertise on Stealth, deception, acrobatics, intimidation
Plus feats: Actor, skulker, Prodigy (half-elf), skill expert, and skilled.
14 skill proficiencies and 6 expertises (last two go to persuasion, and athletics or sleight of hand) 16 skill proficiencies if I swap skulker for Eldritch adept at an early enough level to ensure I can still get expertise from deception and persuasion I’d pick up from beguiling influence Eldritch invocation. Really this was meant to pick up as many of the skills as possible.