No one who isn’t a veteran can even tell what’s happening on the screen . It’s so incredibly overwhelming . People check the streams , see the gameplay in arena , and immediately say “yeahhhh no” .
No fr I came back to df with my old undead rogue main ready to play like the old wrath and cata days and said I’m gunna go all out and try to get into arena and pvp and I lasted like a month of trying man. Just was not worth trying when there were just hundreds of better pvp experience out there. I’ll play wow as a causal lol
Part of the problem is that blizzard believes each class needs similar cooldowns to each other when in reality, the joy of PVP was different classes bringing different things and making those comps to prevent your weaknesses.
the reason homogenization is so prevalent now is because of M+ design, every class needs everything or else the game mode needs to scrapped or redesigned from the ground up
Atp the game being 20 year old, i would not even care about such thing as class identity anymore tbh,, games too old you gotta learn to accept it as it is so you can enjoy it as much as you can or simply dont play if u cant accept it. Maybe some day Blizz could do alternate reality servers like Classic on the latest xpacs with " what if" playing it hardcore, no addons, perfect class identity, but the reality is this is retail nothing else
Solo shuffle was the worst experience I ever had. If you are the new kid on the playground the rest of the kids quickly take notice and you spend the whole time dead.
As a raider I definitely remember a time before M+ existed when after we cleared raid for the week you either logged out levelled an alt, or you pvp’d. We were a hardcore raid guild that just kinda started channeling that into a couple high rated battleground groups & 3v3 teams, just cause we wanted to play the game & there was nothing left to do PvE wise for a week. I’m also not saying it’s a good thing to rely on people having nothing else to do but PvP of course, but I remember most of the guild shifted to M+ pretty quickly & never really looked back.
This data shows number of games played AMONGST THE TOP 5000 PVP players. I don't think the top 5000 M+ players are doing anywhere near a million keys. This data isn't comparable...
Yall must be arena andies is fun but has to many problems no 1 wants to play and be Heals for some sweaty dps that goes in an gets wrecked by the other 2 dps cause they didn't wanna work together with the random it's ez to understand
The top 5000 players account for around 35% of the total playerbase. They are the most active and regular players, likely playing more games than a casual below the top 5000. The data is very comparable. Even if you wanted to double, triple, even *quadruple* the shuffle numbers, they are still a small fraction of Mythic+ activity. And that's completely disregarding raid activity. PvE dwarfs PvP, they aren't even in the same stratosphere.
@@Solaxeryou’d have to first and foremost take the same sample. Not top 5000 from one region vs all players worldwide. A more realistic number would be to take the top 5000 mythic players vs the top 5000 shuffle. And then you’d have to multiply the shuffle numbers by ~2.8 to account for queue times. So, in reality the numbers were looking at would be closer to 100k for shuffle vs 166k mythic keystones. The difference isn’t anywhere close to what the morons who made the original video make it out to be.
I miss gear upgrades. For me personally I quit after 2-3 months due to the lack of progression. I miss the days where you could push higher rating and get rewarded by upgrading your gear. I used to help a few PvE bro's in PvP, teaching them the mindset and the flow of battle, my higher PvP ilvl would help keep me alive to assist/help them enjoy the game mode. They would get so excited each time we hit a new rating, upgrade that gear, test it out, enjoy the extra dps and survivability. Now you basically max your conquest each week and log off to play other games. Once you are max conquest there's nothing more to do. You beat the game, wait until next season
Best time i ever had was in WOD on my mm Hunter. All you had to do is grind honor and conquest points. you just go to the vendor, buy any piece of pvp gear you wanted and you’re good to go. No rng bs. it could be quite the grind getting that conquest but it felt satisfying to earn it and spend it however you liked. I know most people hated ashran, but if you could get a great group going you could earn so much points and buy a bunch of gear quick. I ended up learning all the mechanics for ashran and would spend 8+ hours leading the raid to victory the entire time. I genuinely enjoyed it and I’m sure everyone appreciated my hard work making sure we won every fight And got every bit of conquest. Eventually my Hunter was fully geared with mastery, which was at the time a straight up damage buff. I had the talent where if you stand still for 3 seconds you gain another damage buff + lone wolf talent. Let’s just say my Hunter was extremely broken and i could get most players down to 40% hp before they even saw me coming. Barrage would melt everyone and chimera shot crits were huge. Let’s not forget kill shot to finish them off..
Yeah.. wod pvp was great for hunters.. that Draenor world buff from the Garrison that would spawn a glyph on the floor increasing crit in Ashran was sick aswell haha
I think wow pvp scratches a very specific itch that some people love - And no other game can really capture. But I also think 90% of people don't really enjoy that same unique thing about it - They are looking for something else in a pvp game that other games provide better. If Blizzard separated the PVP modes entirely from the rest of the game and treated it almost as a separate game - I think they could deliver on both extremely well tbh. P.S. I really enjoy watching you react to things and to hear your input. I feel like on most topics you provide a very unique, refreshing, and grounded take that I can't really get from other people I watch - Thanks for the content!
Half the reason people like wow PVP is because a game outside of it exists. I want to earn my glad mount and then be able to run around the world using that mount. Making wow PVP a separate thing where you sit in a lobby and queue up or whatever is going to kill it even faster.
Naw .... It use to, I quit EverQuest for WOW and got Gladiator during Wrath, I quit for a long time before returning to DF. WOW PVP is a shell of what it use to be, having no teams means anybody can play with anybody removing it's structure. Flavor of the Month and Bandwagons are out of control, way too many CCs, no more set up comps and the game is mashy like never before. The game lost what made it special, which is why people are leaving. I spent nearly 200 days on my Blood Elf Rogue to get Gladiator and I don't give a shit to do that anymore. Game needs to get fixed, it's so easy for a Rank 1 player to just hop on their alt whey they are bored to ruin the bracket. Back in the day, when you left a team, you would start off at 1500... which means if a Rank 1 got to around 2900 and wanted to smurf they would have to start off at 1500 again, work their way back up. This removes people playing on whatever random team they want to play on to fuck it all up. They are held with some accountability to stick to a team.
@@Kanoog The reason they removed arena teams is because you could boost people to rank1/glad by making a new team, playing the team up to the cutoff and then leaving / making a new team to boost the next person. The issue you are describing would be WORSE with arena teams.
@@PledgeBass Having cosmetic rewards in wow would make no sense if you had no place to show them off. Why do you think thousands of pvpers sit outside sw/org gates every single day? The wow pvp player base is split into people who like Arena, RBGs, World pvp, BGs and a mix of both pve and pvp. Wow PVP is not something non-wow players have any interest in. The way to make pvp popular is to simply make the actual game popular and create incentive for people to try PVP out. I myself got really into it from chasing elite sets in WoD s1 when the elite gear was completely separate from both the PVE gear and non-elite pvp, to me that alone made it worth grinding it out.
I'm a 19 year old dude(born in 2004) that has been playing WoW since I was 4 years old, as a die hard arena player I can say that to no one out of my friend group does wow Arena Sound appealing. I've shown them VODs of my gameplay and they all instantly have no idea what's going and have a thousand questions that you can't even answer without at least spending 6 months of playing the game first/
I dont necessarily think it would be a solution that would attract the biggest player base, but for us old pvp addicts a tournament realm in the style of the private server Arena-tournament (AT) with no addons, where the gear and classes are balanced around pvp would be desirable for me personally.
I like this idea. With ow Blizzard is trying out these new modes like MoP remix and Plunderstorm etc this could be something that could actually work. At least that's what I think.
Solo shuffle was an interesting experiment but some pretty large issues include: first person to die is likely to be the known easiest target to kill in the lobby... And because that player died in the first round may be focused and killed the rest of the rounds... And if they are focused and killed for a few early rounds they might leave early to waste everyone elses time. Then 3 dps that did ok in the shuffle and had a 30+ min queue get no rewards for their, effort it feels bad every time. 1.5hours of queue wait minimum shared for the lobby that didnt quit early is a huge problem. I stopped playing when 5 out of 8 consecutive shuffles ended early with no rewards. And I had already been telling people DO NOT ATTACK THE GUY THAT DIED THE MOST, because I didnt want them to rage quit, didnt work, they left early when their teammate died so no rewards. Such a waste of game time.
For arenas/solo shuffle, allow 2v2 dps to queue, keep the healer and 2 dps queues, significantly simplify the spells just like they did for plunderstorm. rogues class signature is stealth and go into stealth after 3 seconds of no damage taken or given. a subtlety rogue would have; 2 attack - backstab (a point generator) and sinister strike (a point spender). 2 utility - shadow step and shadow dance. 1 offensive - shadowblades. 1 defensive - vanish. 1 self heal - crimson vial. an assassination rogue would be a dot type architype have; 2 attack - mutilate and eviscerate. 2 utility - apply poisons and hemorrhage. 1 offensive. increase poison and bleeding damage. 1 defensive - vanish. 1 self heal - passive healing through bleeds and poisons. mage class signature is their casting ability every 3rd spell they cast it is a stronger version of the casted spell arcane mage 2 attack - arcane blast - arcane barrage. 2 utility. blink - apply slow to enemy. 1 offensive. no cooldowns or casting time for x amount of time. 1 defensive - mana bubble. 1 self heal - reverse time and with talents, the spells can be strengthened e.g backstab's damage can be increased by 10-15% or changed to gloomblade to deal shadow damage ignoring armor. or arcane barrage can slow them on hit, increased damage or is now a strong dot. i really do think they need to prune down the spells and have more options for queue to make pvp successful, if they can do plunderstorm, why not try something different for pvp. also, get rid of gear for pvp. it's just a dumb grind. look at plunderstorm, everyone just plays.
It's a mmorpg the whole game is based around gear and getting better the more you work on it.... everyone just needs to play a different game if you want plug and play
Ill tell you why i dont heal, its because SS mmr is completely fucked for healers. It took me nearly 300 rounds to hit 1800 on my disc priest in SS. It took me less than 50 rounds to hit 1800 on my rogue and boomkin. And it was my first time ever playing boomy. I had about 1000 rounds played total healing between disc and MW monk. I enjoy healing, instant queues are great, but the fact that so many games are 3-3 because of an 0-6 dps the rating gain is incredibly slow. SS is great, but no one wants to heal because rating gain is so much harder and blizz wont adjust it.
i often find it when im on the winning side of healing the other healer drops out and that leaves me with almost zero rewards for not completing all matches
@@silver2zilver true..i got 1800 as healer in one day..but around 2100 it was painful af..everyone was gettin big rating around my mmr and i was +0,+0,+0,-21,+3
It's still easier and way more fun to gain rating if you are a healer because you can always play the game, in 3s everyone takes you and in ss you have insta ques. Playing dps in wow pvp is not worth the time and effort
Im a pvx player. What i love about mmorpgs is that everything is connected. I wouldnt like seperated modes for pve and pvp. At the same time im stuck in a long queue. It just sucks on every end
Yeah I feel that. I loved BFA because of the raid incentive! Even if it was only mainly for weapons / trinkets. Fully enjoyed the cross content. Now I just arena after the aotc and KSM push (only takes two week)
then you got three paywalls having to purchase the game, buy expansions and pay a monthly fee something most kids are not going to do when there are 10-20 other top competitive games they can play for free.
Its already separate. PvP gearing makes it that way and its all the same crap but getting it gives you the illusion of playing an RPG but in reality everything is cookie cutter in the end
The arguement of splitting the playbase could be made the other way around too. Having an outdated and basicly dead format like 3v3 splits the playbase and draws healers away from solo shuffle and pushes up the queue-time. Half of 3v3 ladder is literally boosters and the other 12 people are the ones being boosted.
I don't think its really a fair argument either way. I don't know how you could track it, but I think a large portion of SS players wouldn't have played 3's either way. Its not splitting the player base if they had no intention to interact with it prior. I was also that way, I started doing SS just to farm elite sets. If anything SS brought me into the 2v2/3v3 scene.
I've said for years that competitive WoW PvP needs to be Its own game, similar to Plunderstorm. Basically "Warcraft Arena" with fewer, skill shot abilities, Its own balancing etc.
If you take everything I like about WoW and also everything I hate about WoW out of the game and then replace it with Fortnite mechanics, you get Plundetstorm. I've been playing for 16 years as a healer mostly and there is nothing for me in Plunderstorm.
For me MoP was the peak. I'd rot my brains playing WSG/Gilneas random BGs. It was magical. If they bring MoP "Classic" might try it. But I'm not interested in anything else after MoP/WoD.
I have played Dota 2 for 5k hours now, but I do not think WoW way to go is Plunderstorm as it takes away class identity (there are modes like that in dota that allows you to mix abillities), imagine having plunderstorm with classes (they can be simplified heavily), it would keep identity of classes, which is important in fantasy based PvP game. That's why I keep sitting queues for 30 minutes in retail instead of playing insta queue Plunderstorm.
What you said at 10:50-11 is right. I'm afraid I saw those issues coming down the pipe before Solo Shuffle was launched. I really couldn't see how it wouldn't take away from regular arena. I used to do arena skirmishes, have some good runs with people, queue as a team with them, and then we would switch to rated and climb. Was easy that way to meet others, get rank, and the queues pops were instant. But ever since Solo Shuffle came about, which everyone was excited about, there's been less of that. Actually none of that, really.
the learning curve for the arena is difficult too. recently I tried to play arena and I'm a PvE player. you get into a game through solo shuffle and everyone just talks so much crap even at low rating where you're trying to learn.
The monstrous mountain of addons (which, in a competitive sense, is 100% cheating) cause the barrier to entry and estrangement of veteran players (like me). Remove addons and you get more players. A LOT more players. Venruki has talked about this
not only the addons, also fix these bugs gladiators call "tricks" who sell it to players on 50-70$ per hour to new players. It takes decades to learn all this,there is a huge variety
people were hooked to pvp when there was a lot of fun to socialize, duel, goo bg's arena together, and make or just watch open world pvp movies like unmercey, neilyo, akrios...
i think its salvageable , you give every class a massive overhaul make them feel very unique and give them 10-15 buttons max you give UI a massive overhaul as well and ban addons , give incentives (major better ones than what is currently on retail) for raiding and pvping and that maybe gets you faster queues so players can come in and get that get in and get out type experience wich is much more doable for everyone
Xar talking about the drawbacks of solo shuffle while not mentioning the drawbacks of the previous system (which was inaccessible to the plebs), and ends up encountering the same parsing problem that SoD is currently facing.
yeah they are out of touch with reality since they have their friends on bnet and have r1 titles/viewers so they're spoon fed games. The average person actually looking to push has to be like 2200+ and after 1 game they disband.
I have to agree with you, Plunderstorm was a ton of fun. I am not a full time pvper, honestly I mostly stick to classic wow, but for a solid 2-3 weeks I couldn't stop queing up for Plunder. I think it's because of the homogeneity in gear and skills and the fact that if you just have a bad match it's over quick and nobody is bitching you out afterwards. Would I play wow only for that? No, but it reminded me of the good old days before arena where it was just battlegrounds and open world pvp. I tried to get my family to do arena with me several times and they just get smashed and depressed about it and quick before they can really even get into it. BG's are different, you can feel like you are making an impact without even really contributing that much. I don't know, i would like to see the meta shift back to that personally.
the bit around 26:00 relates to all blizzard games from the start. thats what i hope everyone will remember from blizz at the end of the day.. from legends playing warcraft pvp starcraft pvp diablo 2 pvp world of warcraft.. good stuff xar
I completely agree about plunderstorm I love it, what I like about it is it’s easy to pick up, only a few games in & u get used to the powers, in wow you have to know so many moves in order to counter well.
My relationship with wow is based on expansions. If I see something interesting I give it a try otherwise I stay out. I joined dragon flight, had fun with professions, raids, at certain point pvp with multiple classes and eventually the fun was no more and I quit. And it has been like that for a while now. If I ever had to complain about wow it would be: 1 - DH are way too op, fk them. 2 - Solo shuffle queue time is insanely high. I like the level of difficulty for PVE, and PvP you just need to be good.
The problem with WoW expansions is that people will play the first quarter when its new and exciting, then fall off towards the middle for a few months and take a break. Then once their interest has come back around you log in and are bombarbed with talking heads, new content like more areas, reputation grinds, factions, sub systems etc and a new expansion has been announced and is on the horizon. So you don't even bother. Not sure if you can even fix that issue
Oh man, that is just soooo fucking acurate! Now I am at the exact point when I feel like "do I want to do all the grind and shit, google how to use all the new mechanics and what else should I do or do I just call it over since new expansion is coming soon"? So yeah, I switched to other games. It is the same things all over again - veeery hard to catch up for a casual player
This is true, it is much harder to come back into retail after not playing for couple months.. And I think a big portion of current WoW players play games this ON/OFF way simply because we are older fukks and not teenagers anymore.
@@1fox3i disagree, even Teens do the same,i Know quite a few of them who think exactly the same as the older generation. WoW is a great game, but retail Destroyed it. Everyone has +10 characters and noone knows what to play or what to do. And gladiators don't even Care except for duelling at the front gates of each capital. WoW is in the wrong hands at this point
Plunder brought me back to wow in general after I reached 60 in HC and got bored. SoD is definitely heading in the direction most classic players feared. I haven't tried trios, but for duos and solos I have a very surprising insight: the team that works on plunderstorm is actually good and fixes issues. There were some huge problems with how much of a factor luck played, if you're not a lotto winner in terms of spawns you can kiss your first place chances goodbye. They for the most part from what I can see fixed levelling. I'm consistently getting to a competitive level even with bad spawns now.
For me its the CC atm. Just had a game against Warrior Rogue and Druid. SHuffle. I think i went from Cheap shot into a Gouge then a Stormbolt into fear into Blind and then a Cyclone and back to Kick then Cheap Shot. Glad i am a Shaman who has a lot of instants...... also yeah if you arer not a "Veteran" who played PvP in the past its just overwhelming what even goes on.... Just the things above with all the DRs they share or not share
Nice vid, Xar...great review ! The thing I dont like about Plunderstorm is it being "Classless". One thing I feel is that WoW is hard to balance around x2/x3 (even worst for duels), but its kinda well balanced around larger fights, eg.: Battlegrounds. Hope PvP findnd its way with Rated Blitz (possibly) coming in next Expansion. Pce out, m8 ! Gratz on the gr8 content !!!
Plunderstorm sucks. I want to be able to build a max level wow character and have access to everything available to me to use in regular wow pvp without playing the game. This would save WoW pvp. An awesome level playing field of real WoW pvp would be incredibly fun.
That's the point, it's not an mmo, it's a fast-paced game you can just jump into whenever with no real time committment. If you don't like that then fine, so that just means you prefer the mmo genre above Battle Royale genre. Other people enjoy Plunderstorm though.
Solo shuffles and solo rbgs needs to give people glad mounts, i can play 3 games of league a week and ill get gold and still get my victorious skin, but for wow i need to play for 8 hours a day to maybe get a glad mount
And the 3 games of league are instead ques, in wow you need to play around 10 SS a week to make some noticeable push, so this is about 5 hours just sitting in ques, which is self-harm imo
That's a weird thing to say. Your gold skin in league is like the equivalent of 1700 in WoW. Gladiator is more comparable to diamond.. you're not getting diamond rewards.
On point Xaryu, every product has a lifecycle and as they tap their customer base they must shift toward new markets to expand. You even see this in healthy companies, eg Xbox with game streaming or Apple with VR.
Not only are the queues 30 minutes for DPS, The lobbies are trash. I have a video of a solo queue session I did where three out of five games I played, someone left the game early. I have another video where after the q popped, the match ended instantly because it bugged out as we were joining. Sometimes you get an absolute gorilla brain warrior who as soon as the gates open will run 200 yd from the healer, either dying instantly or forcing the healer to walk into CC. It's not just one thing, everything about pvp is f****** trash right now. Cc is a massive problem. Burst damage is a problem. Every class being able to heal insane amounts is a problem. Blizzard straight up. Refusing to listen to players when they ask for things like 2v2 DPS only solo shuffle is a massive problem. If you could cue for solo as DPS and get an instant q for some 2v2s I feel like it would triple the amount of people who try PVP in wow, but blizzard absolutely refuses for claims that it might be unbalanced, as if the rest of their game works well. They're just making money off a famous IP. No decisions they've made recently have been good.
Id argue that no decisions they've made since at least MoP have been good. I was a HUGE PvPer in MoP. Just shy of 2k rated across the board as a Frost DK. Which at the time was a pretty big deal. Since I've left and checked back in every now and then, I've seen them make a bunch of dumbass decisions b2b2b2b2b. Removing profession perks, removing PvP power, removing prismatic gems, making it where there was no customisation to your own characters, including talent trees (up until recently), removing reforging gear, dummying down tf out of classes, making frost DKs dual wield, removing flight from new xpacs (until recently), this whole micro CC epidemic, i could name alot more.... I just started to play again and I have to say, dragonflight is a step in the right direction. I intend to get into PVP when I hit 70. But then I learn that solo shuffle is a thing and now I'm worried. 😅
@@kaiserstritz136 excuse me? 😂😂😂 Profession perks gave you an edge in PvP. Blacksmith/JC gave's extra slots that allowed you to use a blue gem that gave PvP power. PvP power is 100% PvP related. There were builds for PvE and PvP back in the day, and they made it where each character was baseline and had no way to allow for PvP builds. I think they even removed talents themselves at one point. Reforging was definitely used in PvP. Making FDKs go from 2H to DW unalived the class and made them "consistent damage" rather than burst damage. Which is where it shone. Removing flight just sucked for everyone. And yeah, micro CC is pretty PvP relevant.
@@Primal_Echo Flight is still there, reforging was ok but not fun in pve, profession perk I remember but didnt care at all. I know about pvp power and all that stuff but its been remove because pvp players were crying. Most of what has been remove in the game is because of PVP players. During MOP we had so many nice passive and spells and it was strong in pvp too but PVP nolifers were crying so they remove it
@@TreesPlease42what a weird take? I feel wow doesn’t change enough. Classes have been the same for over 15 years. And LoL is not the same kinda game at all so they update more frequent for balance around over 100 characters.
Honestly I'd love to see every spec trimmed down to around 6 iconic abilities with a mop -shadowlands style talent system for pvp. Keep the bg's, the arenas, battle royale and make it available as a stand alone free to play experience with battlepass/renown, xmogs and arguably mounts available for purchase. And you can que from ingame using your characters with all your hard earned collections. A lot of the tech is already in place with plunderstorm, renown, trading post, instancing and cross server. I'd bet you'd see a huge influx of new players coming from league, fortnite, valorant, apex etc. and some would naturally try WoW to pve, learn more about the world, get xmogs etc. Such a giga sweet low hanging fruit ripe for the taking. Pls Blizz, take the instant success!
Hopefully Plunderstorm will be some incentive for WoW to not give up on new modes to revitalize PvP. I've been hoping for a deep game mode that's 5v5 or 6v6 for a long time. They just don't have to seem have any willingness for innovation in PvP. There's been a serious void since GW1 died for a competitive team game mode that is both incentivized and engaging
Your discussion on League is really important - the game has immense amounts of depth despite not having a very high level of complexity on the surface. Despite having 4 abilities per character, there is so much depth to the game. WoW PvP requiring like 35 keybinds and addons to track enemy cooldowns, kicks, do mouseover macros etc. is just such a huge wall for anyone who hasn't already spent 20 years developing this set of knowledge. I think WoW should try to move towards using a limited action set - where talents and such give you more options, but not more overall bloat because you only pick like 10 abilities to have in your loadout at a time. Like idk if yall played Wildstar, it had its issues but its Limited Action Set system was so good - you had to balance whether you wanted to add extra damage abilities or CC & other utility. I think something like that for WoW could be great, because there's just too much bloat that nobody wants to bother learning when there are other games that are 10x easier to get into that still offer just as much depth. Having more buttons to press doesn't mean the gameplay is more interesting. It just means more people get carpal tunnel & burned out lmao
triple dps is such a meme and its defo not fun... maybe like sub 2k rating it would be good just to be able to farm up fast, or get some experience on a class.....then once your at 2k rating maybe it makes you play like it is now... its not a terrible idea, but its not a good idea... i just think one of the problems is, there isnt a really wonderful idea out there that fixes everything.
If plunderstorm is wow pvp, then warcraft rumble is wow pve. It can be successful, but that does not translate into more players or a better players experience in WoW.
Ngl they really failed with arena PvP on Classic. They should have actively balanced the game. Playing on the final patch from day 1 and only making changes for PvE logs is wild.
IMO if you wanted to save pvp it wouldn't be too hard. Step1) make a few plunderstorm esc BGs but have the rewards affect your in game characters (Example, a tinker themed BG where your character hires a Goblin to build them a mount but the goblin or gnomes take it to battle, you can customize it and ride it outside of the BG) Step2) bring back old pvp sets with utility based bonuses and different more brutal appearances Step 3) fix the mmr issue I haven't pvp'd since mop but I hear it needs fixing Step 4) re-work battle grounds with new goals/objectives and tasks Step 5) blizzard needs to invest in the game, keeping the content fresh and the esports scene going.
With Plunder everyone is basically the same. WOW retail PVP you have players with 30+ buffs, PVP gear and addons, new players can't keep up. One shot and dead.....
Rated solo arenas were a mistake in my humble opinion. It should be soloQ rated battlegrounds. Bgs are easier to understand because it has clear obectives, either control a base, or run with a cart or something. There was a brawl with shorter timed BGs and it was a great experience. Less people in each team, smaller scores to finish a game and that's it. I had so much fun with that
I enjoy plunderstorm myself and agree that a new pvp mode has more potential for growing wow than arena, but i just dont know if plunder is the mode to do that lol
Plunderstorm is not wow bro, we need a World of Warcraft arenas only mode, with its own balance, its own spells, its own updates and everything separated from the main game
Right! Like they did with Plunderstorm. Make separate servers for the Arena people. Rebalance their classes and make it PVP only. No random monsters running around, only players and PVP vendors. They can do WPVP as well. Give them dueling zones to practice where dueling players are protected from being attacked by other players while dueling. Then put the arenas scattered throughout the zone like dungeon and raid zones. Leave the current world as it is, but make separate servers just for the hardcore arena people. Continue to give them their rewards for their efforts, or maybe increase what they get from obtaining higher ranks? With the separate servers, us regular, job and/or family having players who aren’t playing WoW as a job can still queue into arenas, but against other players with similar lifestyles. Make the regular arenas disable all add ons and cooldown trackers so the players can just play without watching all that crap. Let the “Elite” players deal with those addons on their arena servers.
Definitely agree, plunderstorm is new but it is the way forward imo. Obviously they can't fix all the problems with old school arena... but pluderstorm is what the game needs to scale with the younger audience.
You are the first high end + credible WoW pvp person i have seen have these specific takes you are giving in this video. I have been saying some of these things for years, and the overwhelming response from the high end community has been "no we need more buttons, more CC". I think there are some very interesting discussions to be had regarding high end players selling boosts for Real Money, having the ear of a WoW Dev(s) at the same time and the implications of that. The game was steered in a very unhealthy direction for a very long time. The direction catered to high end players, and dismayed casual WoW pvpers. That is not to say that all high end players LIKED that direction, simply that they ultimately benefited from it, until WoW pvp in general become not beneficial by default. I believe PvP could have been "fixed" years ago if this direction was halted, but at this point it's too late and we need these other modes, such as plunderstorm, if there is to be a healthy WoW (adjacent) PvP community into the future. If you would ever want to chat about this I'm definitely open to it and could be completely private. I'd love to just share my thoughts with you since you seem so open to them from this video and perhaps even further your perspective.
IMO we should have 1. Separate game mode like PlunderStorm for Arena, BGs 2. a bit more than 5 abilities: 2 burst (e.g. Icy Veins, Ray of Frost), 2 CC (e.g. poly, counter spell), 1 mobility (e.g. blink), 2 filler (Frost Bolt, Flurry), 1 Save (e.g. Ice Block)... it is 8... ok maybe 10 spells in total will be fine (just to make class differences: some have more CC, some more mobility, but still 10 spells) 3. This game mode should have system where you get rewards just for participation 4. Rewards should be shareble between it and PvE WoW Who knows, maby few expantions later blizzard will do it and Plunderstorm was just test mode of it.
I think BG blitz once its rated will give the WoW PVP community a good pop , I'm an arena player but i prefer RBGS , but the task of getting a group together for half the people to no listen and go off and do their own thing is a pain. With solo que it will feel like you're queing a random bg with a rating attached. i just hope there's not a 200 - 500 rating point gap . I also hope they allow us to earn the RBG titles through blitz
I was someone who initally had no interest in doing vanilla again and thought there was some truth to the whole "you think you do but you don't" thing yet I've been blown away by how much I enjoy classic compared to retail, especially pvp. There's just something way nicer about that slower more tactical style it has. Way less mobility, much longer cooldowns, mana is precious, incredibly fun itemization. It doesn't even matter that classic is fundamentally unbalanced af. It's fun and even better its fun to watch.
@@EmpyreanDreamer yea I play warrior one of the most painful classes to play in pvp. But it feels so good when i go off on bg after getting pwned 1v1 all the time. Just rewarding as hell
What i hate about this idea of splintering pvp off is that it wouldn't feel like this persistent world, like my same character is having these adventures, enjoying open world shenanigans etc.
Remove gear ilvl shouldn’t matter for pvp, less abilities, less cc, being able to kill shouldn’t depend on how good you can cc but rather your positioning and healer. Make healer have actual healing cd where you can’t just keep healing until you run out of mana or maybe have mana delete faster so mana management is more strategic. I feel wow pvp is gotten into which class is stronger now instead of which team is more strategic
I mean honestly if you are not already good at pvp then its unfun to learn it. You level a character with WM on you dont get any actual practice until you do the bgs and then when you naturally suck you get flamed, or, you turn WM off and get ganked by people way over leveled/geared to grief you because so many people think "lol its world pvp scrub get gud" and on either option the barrier for entry is way to high and the pvp community did it to itself. People are willing to put the time in but barrier for entry for new players is too important if you are trying to bring in new blood 26:26-"New generation is not enjoying it"
I think we need to chill, Blizz takes time to do/realise these things, but they got Talby and some other smart people I'm sure they're listening and once they find a few solutions and the timing for timing for them, they'll make pvp better. Less abilities is something in some categories (probably most) is even something even the PvE people want.
I feel in pvp no one speaks about "casual pvp players".ofc you want to be in high elo in every game you play competitive but there is also a case like me that are ok in middle high elo in some games playing way less and being ok with that.
People nowadays are basically dopamine junkies and want to have fun quicker. We dont want to lvlup, get gear, get a team, etc in order to do pvp. We want a game with no real barrier of entry (no gear), a game that you can play with your folks anyday, anytime and just have fun.
The game was separate back in TBC, WOTLK and Cata all thanks to the Resilience... when Blizz removed it, the PvP went down hill... thats the facts and yet no one talks about that... Like for real ... PvE back then had theyr tier sets while the PvP players had resilience gear.... ( Players with PvE gear was getting easily killed if they aproach pvp with theyr raid gear and in raids the pve leaders was avoiding getting players with resilience gear) P.S. for those who dont know what Resilience is - "Resilience is a character attribute that reduces all damage taken from players and their pets or minions. The reduction has no effect on the damage taken from mobs." with decent pvp gear back then players reached like 50% damage reduction and it was stats only on PvP gear.
@@eldril1009 yeah but think it depends on the content too, like discussions for example can be abit echo chamber-like when it’s just 1 person forwarding there views at least this way there’s technically 3 different types of opinions from 3 backgrounds and you compare them with your own ect 😂
Any one who thinks WOW PVP isn't dead is just in denial it has gone down every expansion since Cata and has never gone back up and queue's became that long Blizz introduced Bots so people could get games faster when Bots are added in it is dead already.
12:50 this is only true in the current format of one healer per team, two DPS per team. If you allowed 2v2s that were DPS only, or if you allowed 3v3s between DPS only, or disregarded class and spec completely and put a random six players who might comprise of a healer and might not, you could get around queue times overnight.
Classic wow has this for bgs, obviously not arena but you can take a sample size and make an educated guess. What’s the first thing ppl type when they don’t have healers and other team does? “Gg next” arena is gonna be worse. No healer? Gg next
@@AdvancedGorilla what’s the point of 2v2 dps? You obviously aren’t thinking about rogue mage, rogue rogue, Hunter druid, double paladins, Paladin arms, etc. DPS only 2v2s are just who got the CC chain off first. Completely useless format lol. No one would outlive any opener burst without trading trinket and defensives
I reckon simplify the game regarding spells/abilities. Having like 30+ keybinds isnt exactly all that great. Make unique mount rewards for solo shuffle/ rbgs.
Cata was nuts for pvp as well, the entire foundation for the popularity of mop pvp was built there imo. Rekfuls 3000 rating video still lives rent free in my head, original and blazens 2v2 duo rogue stream is the still some of the most fun content i watched on twitch, esp considering how early days it was. Maybe wow pvp died with reckful.
My dream as someone thats hard into PVE Now but was big on PvP from BC to Cata sort of era....back when I was young and egotistical sure... But Id love to see Plunder mode go FTP and help FUNNEL towards the paid WoW experience for those that want to bridge that gap when they see fit. But in the meantime a plunderstorm mode be the primary directive for a PvP based experience of a competitive nature. It will get people used to the zones the lore all that good juicey stuff. If people came to play the PvE experience they would have that moment of clarity when they get to go explore the zones they love from Plunderstorm in a PvE aspect " OMG this is stranglethorn vale from season 3 Poggers" etc This also allows a potential opportunity for a PvP path to get transmog for the PvE game. In the meantime for those that still want pvp as a fun screw around in retail wow the actual pve experience? Remove all pvp gear remove vers as a stat remove competitive RBGS and competitive arena and JUST have solo shuffle or regular BGs....thats it. Go back to the wild fast paced nature of no pvp gear or resilience or dampening or anything like that. Make plunderstorm the competitive space for pvp experience.
Personally, I really like the concept of the Arena/BGs and I wouldn't want it to be gone, I don't think Plunderstorm per se should be the new experience to WoW's PvP, it's a different type of game but it does emphasize some concepts that can be introduced to WoW's PvP in order to improve it. WoW might not be the best PvP game but it does bring a unique PvP experience, especially the Arena so people should think how to evolve it as opposed to replace it with something else... I think it would be better to have each class/spec with its own unique but fixed abilities so all classes+specs would have their iconic abilities, no talents, no professions, no gear (outside to cosmetics), no addons, no macros, everyone share the exact same UI excluding spells that may vary from class/spec to antoher, position of frames, position of spells and keybinds, last but not least have more seasonal rewards comparable to Plunderstorm.
Plunder storm isn't traditional World of Warcraft Player verse Player but is a Fortnite with WoW skins tacked on. It's a totally separate game that needed to use the WoW client to launch into the game because they didn't want to invest resources on an official launch and have it bomb. They invested $50,000 on a create tournament as a way to cheap out on advertisement for the game mode. I played Plunder storm, got my 40 renown and left it within four days. It was toxic in the lobby with the barrel rolls and PvP telling the Player verse Environment people to shut up or "get gud". I would take normally WoW PvP over Plunder storm any day because it is also more friendly to people with hand disabilities and offers support classes that don't have the ability to maneuver like you need in hand-to-hand battle with controllers.
The chart is misleading due to the weekly Conquest Point cap on each character. A player can progress so much on their main character so, they work on an alt or 5 in the meantime until the aforementioned Conquest Point cap is lifted for the duration of the season.
TBH I think what made Plunderstorm popular is less buttons... I dont have to track 50 abilities of a Mage, Lock, Hunter, Priest, Paladin, Warrior, Rogue, Monk, Dragon, and more then track how these abilities react with one another PLUS track their CDs in my fuckin head while trying to remember my rotation and positioning before I die in one global.
PvP was already hanging on by a thread in Cata & MoP not sure what you mean. TBC arena participation was MASSIVE if you still have access to the old Arena Junkies spreadsheets about how many teams there were per season based on titles and percentages. By the end of S8 WOTLK it had halved, though I believe that was the best era due to class design hitting a sweet spot between fun (just enough homogenization without destroying everything) and high skillcap that gave you something to grow towards. By the end of Cata S11 there was again an ALMOST 50% reduction in PvP participation. Blizzard handled PvP very poorly in Cata (yes RBGs were a nice addition but there were a ton of problems with arenas), they basically shut down the tourney circuit in Cata I believe. That's why NAO showed up, players were trying desperately to salvage arenas. I wasted so much time spamming for arena teams in Cata and having to transfer characters to the more active realms and it was still a pain in the ass. In MoP, the community was so dead that I quit after being like R2 on my battlegroup because the queues were just awful. There were only like two other teams we could queue into on Vindication which used to be a large battlegroup, and I was never even really like a R1 player (maybe for a brief stint during Cata I could've played at that level with the right team and some practice). They had to finally merge the BGs in mid-MoP because of how low participation got. I am 100% convinced the ONLY reason people look back on MoP fondly is because of the final arena season. By then they had a lot of the balance insanity finally sorted, the numbers pacing (damage and healing) felt maybe the best it ever had, even though class design was silly and all over the place at this point in WoW's history (it basically started to feel like a private fun server, not a professionally designed MMO). Wrath was really it, but WoW is sort of not a "real" MMO these days, AND even if it were MMOs aren't "in". I think they need to seriously review WOTLK design from a class and combat pacing perspective, and combine that with modern QoL. The new UI customization is much better, the way loot works is fine now, but addons need to go. Classes need changed dramatically, solo shuffle could be great but the queues are terrible. They either need to fix SS, or dump it and focus on creating a much smoother system for helping players form real teams.
What would you think of a PvP revamp where we see each wow class represented, but pared down to their most basic elements? Make Pvp a fully separate and well supported form of content for WoW.
WoW as a whole needs to be as simple as Plunderstorm, reactive gameplay with 5-8 buttons but being able to spec into different spells - something like GW2 but even simpler in terms of specing into builds you want. As for PVP, I don't think BR is the way to go, you might attract kids but old WoW Playerbase wouldn't be for it, but something like Overwatch would work great with WoW, it would even solve the Tank/Healer/DPS ratio and the queues would be minimal. Man just thinking about it gets me hyped up, but it's probably never gonna happen, atleast not for the next 3 expansions that have already been announced, because it would probably have to be a standalone thing.
It's not about pulling girls Xar. When "hot girls" play young guys like the Idea that there's a possibility they could play with them. It also makes them feel less like a basement dweller.
I've played arenas with friends since mop, I love it but not very good because I only really get 100-150 games in a season. I really only got to 1600 each season and pushing 1800 a few times and felt good because I felt I was learning and getting better from season to season, and that was good enough for me. But in DF season 1 I never got to 1400 and it felt awful, I tried again in season 2 when it started and never got to 1400 again, so why would I play a game that I cant ever get to the low mediocre rating I was getting before. I switched to keys and each season I push my rating and have got close to 3k on multiple alts each season and season 4 I am going to try to get 3k on all three roles. I know I will get the obligatory "get good scrub" responses but I have a career, a family, a home and a side business so 1600-1800 was good enough for me and I got the mount each season.
No one who isn’t a veteran can even tell what’s happening on the screen . It’s so incredibly overwhelming . People check the streams , see the gameplay in arena , and immediately say “yeahhhh no” .
Ngl. It kinda looks boring too.
Right on the nail@@milo20060
No fr I came back to df with my old undead rogue main ready to play like the old wrath and cata days and said I’m gunna go all out and try to get into arena and pvp and I lasted like a month of trying man. Just was not worth trying when there were just hundreds of better pvp experience out there. I’ll play wow as a causal lol
even vets think the game has became too much over the years.
I've called rogue in bgs then get chain stunned and bg leader blames me for losing base, there is nothing certain classes can do against chain cc.
Part of the problem is that blizzard believes each class needs similar cooldowns to each other when in reality, the joy of PVP was different classes bringing different things and making those comps to prevent your weaknesses.
the reason homogenization is so prevalent now is because of M+ design, every class needs everything or else the game mode needs to scrapped or redesigned from the ground up
@@aic20ty skillcapped
@@Alan-uy1iq my man just copy pasted the script
@@RM-bg5cd Ahaha like legit word for word, absolute bot brain energy
Atp the game being 20 year old, i would not even care about such thing as class identity anymore tbh,, games too old you gotta learn to accept it as it is so you can enjoy it as much as you can or simply dont play if u cant accept it.
Maybe some day Blizz could do alternate reality servers like Classic on the latest xpacs with " what if" playing it hardcore, no addons, perfect class identity, but the reality is this is retail nothing else
Solo shuffle was the worst experience I ever had. If you are the new kid on the playground the rest of the kids quickly take notice and you spend the whole time dead.
A free kill is a free kill. No mmr system is terrible
This made me laugh way too hard because its the most truthful thing ever. "Oh that guy sucks target him every round" 😂😂😂
@@Freije38 See! Thanks for your honesty lol.
You very quickly get rated lower and lower until you aren't the worst player in the lobby.
I mean that’s the point you go down in rating until you get better lol
As a raider I definitely remember a time before M+ existed when after we cleared raid for the week you either logged out levelled an alt, or you pvp’d. We were a hardcore raid guild that just kinda started channeling that into a couple high rated battleground groups & 3v3 teams, just cause we wanted to play the game & there was nothing left to do PvE wise for a week. I’m also not saying it’s a good thing to rely on people having nothing else to do but PvP of course, but I remember most of the guild shifted to M+ pretty quickly & never really looked back.
This data shows number of games played AMONGST THE TOP 5000 PVP players. I don't think the top 5000 M+ players are doing anywhere near a million keys. This data isn't comparable...
Also it’s only NA shuffles in comparison to worldwide M+ keys . It’s so stupid
Yall must be arena andies is fun but has to many problems no 1 wants to play and be Heals for some sweaty dps that goes in an gets wrecked by the other 2 dps cause they didn't wanna work together with the random it's ez to understand
The top 5000 players account for around 35% of the total playerbase. They are the most active and regular players, likely playing more games than a casual below the top 5000. The data is very comparable. Even if you wanted to double, triple, even *quadruple* the shuffle numbers, they are still a small fraction of Mythic+ activity. And that's completely disregarding raid activity. PvE dwarfs PvP, they aren't even in the same stratosphere.
@@Solaxeryou’d have to first and foremost take the same sample. Not top 5000 from one region vs all players worldwide.
A more realistic number would be to take the top 5000 mythic players vs the top 5000 shuffle.
And then you’d have to multiply the shuffle numbers by ~2.8 to account for queue times.
So, in reality the numbers were looking at would be closer to 100k for shuffle vs 166k mythic keystones. The difference isn’t anywhere close to what the morons who made the original video make it out to be.
I miss gear upgrades. For me personally I quit after 2-3 months due to the lack of progression. I miss the days where you could push higher rating and get rewarded by upgrading your gear. I used to help a few PvE bro's in PvP, teaching them the mindset and the flow of battle, my higher PvP ilvl would help keep me alive to assist/help them enjoy the game mode. They would get so excited each time we hit a new rating, upgrade that gear, test it out, enjoy the extra dps and survivability.
Now you basically max your conquest each week and log off to play other games. Once you are max conquest there's nothing more to do. You beat the game, wait until next season
Best time i ever had was in WOD on my mm Hunter. All you had to do is grind honor and conquest points. you just go to the vendor, buy any piece of pvp gear you wanted and you’re good to go. No rng bs. it could be quite the grind getting that conquest but it felt satisfying to earn it and spend it however you liked. I know most people hated ashran, but if you could get a great group going you could earn so much points and buy a bunch of gear quick. I ended up learning all the mechanics for ashran and would spend 8+ hours leading the raid to victory the entire time. I genuinely enjoyed it and I’m sure everyone appreciated my hard work making sure we won every fight And got every bit of conquest.
Eventually my Hunter was fully geared with mastery, which was at the time a straight up damage buff. I had the talent where if you stand still for 3 seconds you gain another damage buff + lone wolf talent.
Let’s just say my Hunter was extremely broken and i could get most players down to 40% hp before they even saw me coming. Barrage would melt everyone and chimera shot crits were huge. Let’s not forget kill shot to finish them off..
Yeah.. wod pvp was great for hunters.. that Draenor world buff from the Garrison that would spawn a glyph on the floor increasing crit in Ashran was sick aswell haha
Wod PvP was fun
Move while cast Aimshot was huge too
I think wow pvp scratches a very specific itch that some people love - And no other game can really capture. But I also think 90% of people don't really enjoy that same unique thing about it - They are looking for something else in a pvp game that other games provide better.
If Blizzard separated the PVP modes entirely from the rest of the game and treated it almost as a separate game - I think they could deliver on both extremely well tbh.
P.S. I really enjoy watching you react to things and to hear your input. I feel like on most topics you provide a very unique, refreshing, and grounded take that I can't really get from other people I watch - Thanks for the content!
Half the reason people like wow PVP is because a game outside of it exists. I want to earn my glad mount and then be able to run around the world using that mount. Making wow PVP a separate thing where you sit in a lobby and queue up or whatever is going to kill it even faster.
@@hondaricer8528 most modern pvp-only games have cosmetic rewards to earn and showoff. It's not unique to WoW.
Naw .... It use to, I quit EverQuest for WOW and got Gladiator during Wrath, I quit for a long time before returning to DF. WOW PVP is a shell of what it use to be, having no teams means anybody can play with anybody removing it's structure. Flavor of the Month and Bandwagons are out of control, way too many CCs, no more set up comps and the game is mashy like never before. The game lost what made it special, which is why people are leaving. I spent nearly 200 days on my Blood Elf Rogue to get Gladiator and I don't give a shit to do that anymore. Game needs to get fixed, it's so easy for a Rank 1 player to just hop on their alt whey they are bored to ruin the bracket. Back in the day, when you left a team, you would start off at 1500... which means if a Rank 1 got to around 2900 and wanted to smurf they would have to start off at 1500 again, work their way back up. This removes people playing on whatever random team they want to play on to fuck it all up. They are held with some accountability to stick to a team.
@@Kanoog The reason they removed arena teams is because you could boost people to rank1/glad by making a new team, playing the team up to the cutoff and then leaving / making a new team to boost the next person. The issue you are describing would be WORSE with arena teams.
@@PledgeBass Having cosmetic rewards in wow would make no sense if you had no place to show them off. Why do you think thousands of pvpers sit outside sw/org gates every single day? The wow pvp player base is split into people who like Arena, RBGs, World pvp, BGs and a mix of both pve and pvp. Wow PVP is not something non-wow players have any interest in. The way to make pvp popular is to simply make the actual game popular and create incentive for people to try PVP out. I myself got really into it from chasing elite sets in WoD s1 when the elite gear was completely separate from both the PVE gear and non-elite pvp, to me that alone made it worth grinding it out.
I'm a 19 year old dude(born in 2004) that has been playing WoW since I was 4 years old, as a die hard arena player I can say that to no one out of my friend group does wow Arena Sound appealing. I've shown them VODs of my gameplay and they all instantly have no idea what's going and have a thousand questions that you can't even answer without at least spending 6 months of playing the game first/
That's because it's a mmo you build your way up and learn not all at once
PvP is basically the end game, at least the PvP your talking about.
I dont necessarily think it would be a solution that would attract the biggest player base, but for us old pvp addicts a tournament realm in the style of the private server Arena-tournament (AT) with no addons, where the gear and classes are balanced around pvp would be desirable for me personally.
They should try to have a simplified version of wow pvp as a separate game without gear, only cosmetics. About 10 spells per class, no addons
I like this idea. With ow Blizzard is trying out these new modes like MoP remix and Plunderstorm etc this could be something that could actually work. At least that's what I think.
That is the same as playing SOD or level 19 pvp. Both are very fun
no just wait for Mop
It struck me at the 20 minute mark that i'm a 28 year old watching 3 guys look at a graph
dude saaaame haha im like am I really watching a video of a person reacting to a video reacting to another video lol
This is trippin me out, how did we get so old
Solo shuffle was an interesting experiment but some pretty large issues include: first person to die is likely to be the known easiest target to kill in the lobby...
And because that player died in the first round may be focused and killed the rest of the rounds...
And if they are focused and killed for a few early rounds they might leave early to waste everyone elses time.
Then 3 dps that did ok in the shuffle and had a 30+ min queue get no rewards for their, effort it feels bad every time. 1.5hours of queue wait minimum shared for the lobby that didnt quit early is a huge problem. I stopped playing when 5 out of 8 consecutive shuffles ended early with no rewards. And I had already been telling people DO NOT ATTACK THE GUY THAT DIED THE MOST, because I didnt want them to rage quit, didnt work, they left early when their teammate died so no rewards. Such a waste of game time.
For arenas/solo shuffle, allow 2v2 dps to queue, keep the healer and 2 dps queues, significantly simplify the spells just like they did for plunderstorm.
rogues class signature is stealth and go into stealth after 3 seconds of no damage taken or given.
a subtlety rogue would have; 2 attack - backstab (a point generator) and sinister strike (a point spender). 2 utility - shadow step and shadow dance. 1 offensive - shadowblades. 1 defensive - vanish. 1 self heal - crimson vial.
an assassination rogue would be a dot type architype have; 2 attack - mutilate and eviscerate. 2 utility - apply poisons and hemorrhage. 1 offensive. increase poison and bleeding damage. 1 defensive - vanish. 1 self heal - passive healing through bleeds and poisons.
mage class signature is their casting ability every 3rd spell they cast it is a stronger version of the casted spell
arcane mage 2 attack - arcane blast - arcane barrage. 2 utility. blink - apply slow to enemy. 1 offensive. no cooldowns or casting time for x amount of time. 1 defensive - mana bubble. 1 self heal - reverse time
and with talents, the spells can be strengthened e.g backstab's damage can be increased by 10-15% or changed to gloomblade to deal shadow damage ignoring armor. or arcane barrage can slow them on hit, increased damage or is now a strong dot.
i really do think they need to prune down the spells and have more options for queue to make pvp successful, if they can do plunderstorm, why not try something different for pvp.
also, get rid of gear for pvp. it's just a dumb grind. look at plunderstorm, everyone just plays.
It's a mmorpg the whole game is based around gear and getting better the more you work on it.... everyone just needs to play a different game if you want plug and play
Ill tell you why i dont heal, its because SS mmr is completely fucked for healers. It took me nearly 300 rounds to hit 1800 on my disc priest in SS. It took me less than 50 rounds to hit 1800 on my rogue and boomkin. And it was my first time ever playing boomy. I had about 1000 rounds played total healing between disc and MW monk. I enjoy healing, instant queues are great, but the fact that so many games are 3-3 because of an 0-6 dps the rating gain is incredibly slow. SS is great, but no one wants to heal because rating gain is so much harder and blizz wont adjust it.
Yet I’ve known priests who did 60 games and got 1900, so your hot take is anicdotal
i often find it when im on the winning side of healing the other healer drops out and that leaves me with almost zero rewards for not completing all matches
@@silver2zilver true..i got 1800 as healer in one day..but around 2100 it was painful af..everyone was gettin big rating around my mmr and i was +0,+0,+0,-21,+3
It's still easier and way more fun to gain rating if you are a healer because you can always play the game, in 3s everyone takes you and in ss you have insta ques.
Playing dps in wow pvp is not worth the time and effort
same for me dude
Im a pvx player. What i love about mmorpgs is that everything is connected. I wouldnt like seperated modes for pve and pvp. At the same time im stuck in a long queue. It just sucks on every end
Yeah I feel that. I loved BFA because of the raid incentive! Even if it was only mainly for weapons / trinkets. Fully enjoyed the cross content. Now I just arena after the aotc and KSM push (only takes two week)
pvp will die if it continues, so while its nice to have everything connected, for the future of pvp, some change needs to be made
then you got three paywalls having to purchase the game, buy expansions and pay a monthly fee something most kids are not going to do when there are 10-20 other top competitive games they can play for free.
Its already separate. PvP gearing makes it that way and its all the same crap but getting it gives you the illusion of playing an RPG but in reality everything is cookie cutter in the end
@@1ll1c1t_one WoW is not an RPG. DnD is an RPG, in WoW you can't roleplay correctly.
The arguement of splitting the playbase could be made the other way around too. Having an outdated and basicly dead format like 3v3 splits the playbase and draws healers away from solo shuffle and pushes up the queue-time. Half of 3v3 ladder is literally boosters and the other 12 people are the ones being boosted.
I don't think its really a fair argument either way. I don't know how you could track it, but I think a large portion of SS players wouldn't have played 3's either way. Its not splitting the player base if they had no intention to interact with it prior. I was also that way, I started doing SS just to farm elite sets. If anything SS brought me into the 2v2/3v3 scene.
I've said for years that competitive WoW PvP needs to be Its own game, similar to Plunderstorm. Basically "Warcraft Arena" with fewer, skill shot abilities, Its own balancing etc.
If you take everything I like about WoW and also everything I hate about WoW out of the game and then replace it with Fortnite mechanics, you get Plundetstorm. I've been playing for 16 years as a healer mostly and there is nothing for me in Plunderstorm.
Good Luck finding a new game! Yours finally died!
For me MoP was the peak. I'd rot my brains playing WSG/Gilneas random BGs. It was magical. If they bring MoP "Classic" might try it. But I'm not interested in anything else after MoP/WoD.
I have played Dota 2 for 5k hours now, but I do not think WoW way to go is Plunderstorm as it takes away class identity (there are modes like that in dota that allows you to mix abillities), imagine having plunderstorm with classes (they can be simplified heavily), it would keep identity of classes, which is important in fantasy based PvP game. That's why I keep sitting queues for 30 minutes in retail instead of playing insta queue Plunderstorm.
What you said at 10:50-11 is right. I'm afraid I saw those issues coming down the pipe before Solo Shuffle was launched. I really couldn't see how it wouldn't take away from regular arena. I used to do arena skirmishes, have some good runs with people, queue as a team with them, and then we would switch to rated and climb. Was easy that way to meet others, get rank, and the queues pops were instant. But ever since Solo Shuffle came about, which everyone was excited about, there's been less of that. Actually none of that, really.
the learning curve for the arena is difficult too. recently I tried to play arena and I'm a PvE player. you get into a game through solo shuffle and everyone just talks so much crap even at low rating where you're trying to learn.
The monstrous mountain of addons (which, in a competitive sense, is 100% cheating) cause the barrier to entry and estrangement of veteran players (like me). Remove addons and you get more players. A LOT more players. Venruki has talked about this
not only the addons, also fix these bugs gladiators call "tricks" who sell it to players on 50-70$ per hour to new players. It takes decades to learn all this,there is a huge variety
people were hooked to pvp when there was a lot of fun to socialize, duel, goo bg's arena together, and make or just watch open world pvp movies like unmercey, neilyo, akrios...
it was very entertaining
i think its salvageable , you give every class a massive overhaul make them feel very unique and give them 10-15 buttons max you give UI a massive overhaul as well and ban addons , give incentives (major better ones than what is currently on retail) for raiding and pvping and that maybe gets you faster queues so players can come in and get that get in and get out type experience wich is much more doable for everyone
Xar talking about the drawbacks of solo shuffle while not mentioning the drawbacks of the previous system (which was inaccessible to the plebs), and ends up encountering the same parsing problem that SoD is currently facing.
yeah they are out of touch with reality since they have their friends on bnet and have r1 titles/viewers so they're spoon fed games. The average person actually looking to push has to be like 2200+ and after 1 game they disband.
I have to agree with you, Plunderstorm was a ton of fun. I am not a full time pvper, honestly I mostly stick to classic wow, but for a solid 2-3 weeks I couldn't stop queing up for Plunder. I think it's because of the homogeneity in gear and skills and the fact that if you just have a bad match it's over quick and nobody is bitching you out afterwards. Would I play wow only for that? No, but it reminded me of the good old days before arena where it was just battlegrounds and open world pvp. I tried to get my family to do arena with me several times and they just get smashed and depressed about it and quick before they can really even get into it. BG's are different, you can feel like you are making an impact without even really contributing that much. I don't know, i would like to see the meta shift back to that personally.
the bit around 26:00 relates to all blizzard games from the start. thats what i hope everyone will remember from blizz at the end of the day.. from legends playing warcraft pvp starcraft pvp diablo 2 pvp world of warcraft.. good stuff xar
If they made a new solo q 2s mode for only dps, would there be less dps to healers in 3s? maybe it could help both.
Nice
All you would see would be Rogue/Mage, Mage/Mage, or Rogue/Rogue.
Now all we need is a Belluar react to this and the circle is complete.
I completely agree about plunderstorm I love it, what I like about it is it’s easy to pick up, only a few games in & u get used to the powers, in wow you have to know so many moves in order to counter well.
My relationship with wow is based on expansions. If I see something interesting I give it a try otherwise I stay out. I joined dragon flight, had fun with professions, raids, at certain point pvp with multiple classes and eventually the fun was no more and I quit. And it has been like that for a while now. If I ever had to complain about wow it would be:
1 - DH are way too op, fk them.
2 - Solo shuffle queue time is insanely high.
I like the level of difficulty for PVE, and PvP you just need to be good.
The problem with WoW expansions is that people will play the first quarter when its new and exciting, then fall off towards the middle for a few months and take a break. Then once their interest has come back around you log in and are bombarbed with talking heads, new content like more areas, reputation grinds, factions, sub systems etc and a new expansion has been announced and is on the horizon. So you don't even bother. Not sure if you can even fix that issue
Oh man, that is just soooo fucking acurate! Now I am at the exact point when I feel like "do I want to do all the grind and shit, google how to use all the new mechanics and what else should I do or do I just call it over since new expansion is coming soon"? So yeah, I switched to other games. It is the same things all over again - veeery hard to catch up for a casual player
This is true, it is much harder to come back into retail after not playing for couple months.. And I think a big portion of current WoW players play games this ON/OFF way simply because we are older fukks and not teenagers anymore.
@@1fox3i disagree, even Teens do the same,i Know quite a few of them who think exactly the same as the older generation. WoW is a great game, but retail Destroyed it.
Everyone has +10 characters and noone knows what to play or what to do. And gladiators don't even Care except for duelling at the front gates of each capital. WoW is in the wrong hands at this point
Plunder brought me back to wow in general after I reached 60 in HC and got bored. SoD is definitely heading in the direction most classic players feared. I haven't tried trios, but for duos and solos I have a very surprising insight: the team that works on plunderstorm is actually good and fixes issues.
There were some huge problems with how much of a factor luck played, if you're not a lotto winner in terms of spawns you can kiss your first place chances goodbye. They for the most part from what I can see fixed levelling. I'm consistently getting to a competitive level even with bad spawns now.
love this content from xar!
For me its the CC atm. Just had a game against Warrior Rogue and Druid. SHuffle.
I think i went from Cheap shot into a Gouge then a Stormbolt into fear into Blind and then a Cyclone and back to Kick then Cheap Shot.
Glad i am a Shaman who has a lot of instants...... also yeah if you arer not a "Veteran" who played PvP in the past its just overwhelming what even goes on.... Just the things above with all the DRs they share or not share
Nice vid, Xar...great review ! The thing I dont like about Plunderstorm is it being "Classless". One thing I feel is that WoW is hard to balance around x2/x3 (even worst for duels), but its kinda well balanced around larger fights, eg.: Battlegrounds. Hope PvP findnd its way with Rated Blitz (possibly) coming in next Expansion. Pce out, m8 ! Gratz on the gr8 content !!!
Plunderstorm sucks. I want to be able to build a max level wow character and have access to everything available to me to use in regular wow pvp without playing the game. This would save WoW pvp. An awesome level playing field of real WoW pvp would be incredibly fun.
That's the point, it's not an mmo, it's a fast-paced game you can just jump into whenever with no real time committment. If you don't like that then fine, so that just means you prefer the mmo genre above Battle Royale genre. Other people enjoy Plunderstorm though.
Solo shuffles and solo rbgs needs to give people glad mounts, i can play 3 games of league a week and ill get gold and still get my victorious skin, but for wow i need to play for 8 hours a day to maybe get a glad mount
Exactly Ty. It won’t taint the mount reward because let’s be honest it’s already tainted by all the damn recov/RMT boosting there is in pvp.
And the 3 games of league are instead ques, in wow you need to play around 10 SS a week to make some noticeable push, so this is about 5 hours just sitting in ques, which is self-harm imo
Glad is not the equivalent of being gold in league though
why do you people care about mounts lmao
how much dopamine can that possibly provide you
they should make PVP more accessible and FUN
That's a weird thing to say. Your gold skin in league is like the equivalent of 1700 in WoW. Gladiator is more comparable to diamond.. you're not getting diamond rewards.
On point Xaryu, every product has a lifecycle and as they tap their customer base they must shift toward new markets to expand. You even see this in healthy companies, eg Xbox with game streaming or Apple with VR.
Not only are the queues 30 minutes for DPS, The lobbies are trash. I have a video of a solo queue session I did where three out of five games I played, someone left the game early. I have another video where after the q popped, the match ended instantly because it bugged out as we were joining. Sometimes you get an absolute gorilla brain warrior who as soon as the gates open will run 200 yd from the healer, either dying instantly or forcing the healer to walk into CC. It's not just one thing, everything about pvp is f****** trash right now. Cc is a massive problem. Burst damage is a problem. Every class being able to heal insane amounts is a problem. Blizzard straight up. Refusing to listen to players when they ask for things like 2v2 DPS only solo shuffle is a massive problem. If you could cue for solo as DPS and get an instant q for some 2v2s I feel like it would triple the amount of people who try PVP in wow, but blizzard absolutely refuses for claims that it might be unbalanced, as if the rest of their game works well. They're just making money off a famous IP. No decisions they've made recently have been good.
Burst dam is fooked. A blood dk 1 v 5 is shit as well. DH uptime is retarded. Chain cc is absolute bullshit.
Id argue that no decisions they've made since at least MoP have been good. I was a HUGE PvPer in MoP. Just shy of 2k rated across the board as a Frost DK. Which at the time was a pretty big deal. Since I've left and checked back in every now and then, I've seen them make a bunch of dumbass decisions b2b2b2b2b. Removing profession perks, removing PvP power, removing prismatic gems, making it where there was no customisation to your own characters, including talent trees (up until recently), removing reforging gear, dummying down tf out of classes, making frost DKs dual wield, removing flight from new xpacs (until recently), this whole micro CC epidemic, i could name alot more....
I just started to play again and I have to say, dragonflight is a step in the right direction. I intend to get into PVP when I hit 70. But then I learn that solo shuffle is a thing and now I'm worried. 😅
@@Primal_Echo Most of what you just said has nothing to do with pvp
@@kaiserstritz136 excuse me? 😂😂😂 Profession perks gave you an edge in PvP. Blacksmith/JC gave's extra slots that allowed you to use a blue gem that gave PvP power. PvP power is 100% PvP related. There were builds for PvE and PvP back in the day, and they made it where each character was baseline and had no way to allow for PvP builds. I think they even removed talents themselves at one point. Reforging was definitely used in PvP. Making FDKs go from 2H to DW unalived the class and made them "consistent damage" rather than burst damage. Which is where it shone. Removing flight just sucked for everyone. And yeah, micro CC is pretty PvP relevant.
@@Primal_Echo Flight is still there, reforging was ok but not fun in pve, profession perk I remember but didnt care at all. I know about pvp power and all that stuff but its been remove because pvp players were crying. Most of what has been remove in the game is because of PVP players. During MOP we had so many nice passive and spells and it was strong in pvp too but PVP nolifers were crying so they remove it
The fact I look up streams and unless I have put 300 hours into a class I have no idea what's going on lul
It also changes too frequently. WOW changes every year as much as LOL changes in 5 years or Valorant in 10 years
@@TreesPlease42valorant isn't even 5 yrs old lol
@@TreesPlease42what a weird take? I feel wow doesn’t change enough. Classes have been the same for over 15 years. And LoL is not the same kinda game at all so they update more frequent for balance around over 100 characters.
It's a shame everyone is giving up on PvP, I've never found the same feeling I got from Arenas in any other game
Honestly I'd love to see every spec trimmed down to around 6 iconic abilities with a mop -shadowlands style talent system for pvp. Keep the bg's, the arenas, battle royale and make it available as a stand alone free to play experience with battlepass/renown, xmogs and arguably mounts available for purchase. And you can que from ingame using your characters with all your hard earned collections.
A lot of the tech is already in place with plunderstorm, renown, trading post, instancing and cross server.
I'd bet you'd see a huge influx of new players coming from league, fortnite, valorant, apex etc. and some would naturally try WoW to pve, learn more about the world, get xmogs etc.
Such a giga sweet low hanging fruit ripe for the taking. Pls Blizz, take the instant success!
And for the people who loves current wow pvp for the MMORPG style pvp: Expand on world pvp because thats where MMO style pvp shines best.
@@freyrTV wpvp is bad. You get 2 nice fights and after that its mostly camping and 43569943 versus 1. No fun at all
Hopefully Plunderstorm will be some incentive for WoW to not give up on new modes to revitalize PvP. I've been hoping for a deep game mode that's 5v5 or 6v6 for a long time. They just don't have to seem have any willingness for innovation in PvP. There's been a serious void since GW1 died for a competitive team game mode that is both incentivized and engaging
Doing lvl 20s makgora its still alive 😂 best time roll playing and PvPing out there.
Your discussion on League is really important - the game has immense amounts of depth despite not having a very high level of complexity on the surface. Despite having 4 abilities per character, there is so much depth to the game. WoW PvP requiring like 35 keybinds and addons to track enemy cooldowns, kicks, do mouseover macros etc. is just such a huge wall for anyone who hasn't already spent 20 years developing this set of knowledge.
I think WoW should try to move towards using a limited action set - where talents and such give you more options, but not more overall bloat because you only pick like 10 abilities to have in your loadout at a time. Like idk if yall played Wildstar, it had its issues but its Limited Action Set system was so good - you had to balance whether you wanted to add extra damage abilities or CC & other utility. I think something like that for WoW could be great, because there's just too much bloat that nobody wants to bother learning when there are other games that are 10x easier to get into that still offer just as much depth.
Having more buttons to press doesn't mean the gameplay is more interesting. It just means more people get carpal tunnel & burned out lmao
Solo ques could be fixed by giving an opt in thing to have full dps lobbies to handle the overflow .
triple dps is such a meme and its defo not fun... maybe like sub 2k rating it would be good just to be able to farm up fast, or get some experience on a class.....then once your at 2k rating maybe it makes you play like it is now... its not a terrible idea, but its not a good idea... i just think one of the problems is, there isnt a really wonderful idea out there that fixes everything.
@warp9pk767 So you won't opt in.
If plunderstorm is wow pvp, then warcraft rumble is wow pve. It can be successful, but that does not translate into more players or a better players experience in WoW.
The PvP in Rumble is even more borked than retail! (P2W)
Yes exactly
Ngl they really failed with arena PvP on Classic. They should have actively balanced the game. Playing on the final patch from day 1 and only making changes for PvE logs is wild.
IMO if you wanted to save pvp it wouldn't be too hard.
Step1) make a few plunderstorm esc BGs but have the rewards affect your in game characters
(Example, a tinker themed BG where your character hires a Goblin to build them a mount but the goblin or gnomes take it to battle, you can customize it and ride it outside of the BG)
Step2) bring back old pvp sets with utility based bonuses and different more brutal appearances
Step 3) fix the mmr issue I haven't pvp'd since mop but I hear it needs fixing
Step 4) re-work battle grounds with new goals/objectives and tasks
Step 5) blizzard needs to invest in the game, keeping the content fresh and the esports scene going.
With Plunder everyone is basically the same. WOW retail PVP you have players with 30+ buffs, PVP gear and addons, new players can't keep up. One shot and dead.....
Rated solo arenas were a mistake in my humble opinion. It should be soloQ rated battlegrounds. Bgs are easier to understand because it has clear obectives, either control a base, or run with a cart or something. There was a brawl with shorter timed BGs and it was a great experience. Less people in each team, smaller scores to finish a game and that's it. I had so much fun with that
I enjoy plunderstorm myself and agree that a new pvp mode has more potential for growing wow than arena, but i just dont know if plunder is the mode to do that lol
Plunderstorm is not wow bro, we need a World of Warcraft arenas only mode, with its own balance, its own spells, its own updates and everything separated from the main game
Right! Like they did with Plunderstorm. Make separate servers for the Arena people. Rebalance their classes and make it PVP only. No random monsters running around, only players and PVP vendors. They can do WPVP as well. Give them dueling zones to practice where dueling players are protected from being attacked by other players while dueling. Then put the arenas scattered throughout the zone like dungeon and raid zones. Leave the current world as it is, but make separate servers just for the hardcore arena people. Continue to give them their rewards for their efforts, or maybe increase what they get from obtaining higher ranks? With the separate servers, us regular, job and/or family having players who aren’t playing WoW as a job can still queue into arenas, but against other players with similar lifestyles. Make the regular arenas disable all add ons and cooldown trackers so the players can just play without watching all that crap. Let the “Elite” players deal with those addons on their arena servers.
Definitely agree, plunderstorm is new but it is the way forward imo. Obviously they can't fix all the problems with old school arena... but pluderstorm is what the game needs to scale with the younger audience.
If solo and plunder is the future of pvp count me out
agreed
Xaryu came out with the best comments out of WoW content creators so far. I've watch 4 or 5 opinions on this already.
28 here and i recently just started playing wow i love arena but still trying to wrap my head around the game.
You are the first high end + credible WoW pvp person i have seen have these specific takes you are giving in this video. I have been saying some of these things for years, and the overwhelming response from the high end community has been "no we need more buttons, more CC".
I think there are some very interesting discussions to be had regarding high end players selling boosts for Real Money, having the ear of a WoW Dev(s) at the same time and the implications of that. The game was steered in a very unhealthy direction for a very long time. The direction catered to high end players, and dismayed casual WoW pvpers. That is not to say that all high end players LIKED that direction, simply that they ultimately benefited from it, until WoW pvp in general become not beneficial by default.
I believe PvP could have been "fixed" years ago if this direction was halted, but at this point it's too late and we need these other modes, such as plunderstorm, if there is to be a healthy WoW (adjacent) PvP community into the future. If you would ever want to chat about this I'm definitely open to it and could be completely private. I'd love to just share my thoughts with you since you seem so open to them from this video and perhaps even further your perspective.
IMO we should have
1. Separate game mode like PlunderStorm for Arena, BGs
2. a bit more than 5 abilities: 2 burst (e.g. Icy Veins, Ray of Frost), 2 CC (e.g. poly, counter spell), 1 mobility (e.g. blink), 2 filler (Frost Bolt, Flurry), 1 Save (e.g. Ice Block)... it is 8... ok maybe 10 spells in total will be fine (just to make class differences: some have more CC, some more mobility, but still 10 spells)
3. This game mode should have system where you get rewards just for participation
4. Rewards should be shareble between it and PvE WoW
Who knows, maby few expantions later blizzard will do it and Plunderstorm was just test mode of it.
I think BG blitz once its rated will give the WoW PVP community a good pop , I'm an arena player but i prefer RBGS , but the task of getting a group together for half the people to no listen and go off and do their own thing is a pain. With solo que it will feel like you're queing a random bg with a rating attached. i just hope there's not a 200 - 500 rating point gap . I also hope they allow us to earn the RBG titles through blitz
for some reason when i play classic or sod i tend to find people younger than me more often than on retail..
I’ve always liked classic PvP more than retail. Always never liked the changes they made past Bc
I was someone who initally had no interest in doing vanilla again and thought there was some truth to the whole "you think you do but you don't" thing yet I've been blown away by how much I enjoy classic compared to retail, especially pvp. There's just something way nicer about that slower more tactical style it has. Way less mobility, much longer cooldowns, mana is precious, incredibly fun itemization. It doesn't even matter that classic is fundamentally unbalanced af. It's fun and even better its fun to watch.
@@EmpyreanDreamer yea I play warrior one of the most painful classes to play in pvp. But it feels so good when i go off on bg after getting pwned 1v1 all the time. Just rewarding as hell
What i hate about this idea of splintering pvp off is that it wouldn't feel like this persistent world, like my same character is having these adventures, enjoying open world shenanigans etc.
Remove gear ilvl shouldn’t matter for pvp, less abilities, less cc, being able to kill shouldn’t depend on how good you can cc but rather your positioning and healer. Make healer have actual healing cd where you can’t just keep healing until you run out of mana or maybe have mana delete faster so mana management is more strategic. I feel wow pvp is gotten into which class is stronger now instead of which team is more strategic
You are totaly right about Plunderstorm! the only right direction for PVP^^
I mean honestly if you are not already good at pvp then its unfun to learn it. You level a character with WM on you dont get any actual practice until you do the bgs and then when you naturally suck you get flamed, or, you turn WM off and get ganked by people way over leveled/geared to grief you because so many people think "lol its world pvp scrub get gud" and on either option the barrier for entry is way to high and the pvp community did it to itself. People are willing to put the time in but barrier for entry for new players is too important if you are trying to bring in new blood 26:26-"New generation is not enjoying it"
We need to go deeper. Who is going to react to Xaryu's video?
me
"I'm so sick of him" first thing lmfao
I think we need to chill, Blizz takes time to do/realise these things, but they got Talby and some other smart people I'm sure they're listening and once they find a few solutions and the timing for timing for them, they'll make pvp better. Less abilities is something in some categories (probably most) is even something even the PvE people want.
they should probably ban burst spell that will balance the game a little bit and not have player dying in 3 sec on stun against some burst
I feel in pvp no one speaks about "casual pvp players".ofc you want to be in high elo in every game you play competitive but there is also a case like me that are ok in middle high elo in some games playing way less and being ok with that.
People nowadays are basically dopamine junkies and want to have fun quicker. We dont want to lvlup, get gear, get a team, etc in order to do pvp. We want a game with no real barrier of entry (no gear), a game that you can play with your folks anyday, anytime and just have fun.
I prefer a game where we have fun and play for fun than pvp shit where everything is serious and boring
The game was separate back in TBC, WOTLK and Cata all thanks to the Resilience... when Blizz removed it, the PvP went down hill... thats the facts and yet no one talks about that... Like for real ... PvE back then had theyr tier sets while the PvP players had resilience gear.... ( Players with PvE gear was getting easily killed if they aproach pvp with theyr raid gear and in raids the pve leaders was avoiding getting players with resilience gear)
P.S. for those who dont know what Resilience is - "Resilience is a character attribute that reduces all damage taken from players and their pets or minions. The reduction has no effect on the damage taken from mobs." with decent pvp gear back then players reached like 50% damage reduction and it was stats only on PvP gear.
react of a react 2 brain move
Think it’s great tbh multiple opinions in 1 video 😂don’t have to agree with everything but they make some good points :)
@@Lovetoskate good point having all the opignion in one place is nice it just feel like less and less ''creator'' make their own stuff
@@eldril1009 yeah but think it depends on the content too, like discussions for example can be abit echo chamber-like when it’s just 1 person forwarding there views at least this way there’s technically 3 different types of opinions from 3 backgrounds and you compare them with your own ect 😂
Any one who thinks WOW PVP isn't dead is just in denial it has gone down every expansion since Cata and has never gone back up and queue's became that long Blizz introduced Bots so people could get games faster when Bots are added in it is dead already.
Xar- 5% churn in a SaaS model is in fact quite bad. Most successful companies aim for 97%+ retention, anything lower is considered an issue lol
12:50 this is only true in the current format of one healer per team, two DPS per team. If you allowed 2v2s that were DPS only, or if you allowed 3v3s between DPS only, or disregarded class and spec completely and put a random six players who might comprise of a healer and might not, you could get around queue times overnight.
THIS
facts, and players have been telling them this and asking for the gamemode for 10+ years with no result
Classic wow has this for bgs, obviously not arena but you can take a sample size and make an educated guess. What’s the first thing ppl type when they don’t have healers and other team does? “Gg next” arena is gonna be worse. No healer? Gg next
@@Howdypartnerlol 2v2 dps only wont have healer on other team zzzzzzzzzz
@@AdvancedGorilla what’s the point of 2v2 dps? You obviously aren’t thinking about rogue mage, rogue rogue, Hunter druid, double paladins, Paladin arms, etc. DPS only 2v2s are just who got the CC chain off first. Completely useless format lol. No one would outlive any opener burst without trading trinket and defensives
imagine a mop era version of the game. i could just play arena without begin every year with 0 gold 0 gear and lvl 1 ...
I reckon simplify the game regarding spells/abilities. Having like 30+ keybinds isnt exactly all that great. Make unique mount rewards for solo shuffle/ rbgs.
Cata was nuts for pvp as well, the entire foundation for the popularity of mop pvp was built there imo. Rekfuls 3000 rating video still lives rent free in my head, original and blazens 2v2 duo rogue stream is the still some of the most fun content i watched on twitch, esp considering how early days it was. Maybe wow pvp died with reckful.
My dream as someone thats hard into PVE Now but was big on PvP from BC to Cata sort of era....back when I was young and egotistical sure...
But Id love to see Plunder mode go FTP and help FUNNEL towards the paid WoW experience for those that want to bridge that gap when they see fit.
But in the meantime a plunderstorm mode be the primary directive for a PvP based experience of a competitive nature.
It will get people used to the zones the lore all that good juicey stuff. If people came to play the PvE experience they would have that moment of clarity when they get to go explore the zones they love from Plunderstorm in a PvE aspect " OMG this is stranglethorn vale from season 3 Poggers" etc
This also allows a potential opportunity for a PvP path to get transmog for the PvE game. In the meantime for those that still want pvp as a fun screw around in retail wow the actual pve experience? Remove all pvp gear remove vers as a stat remove competitive RBGS and competitive arena and JUST have solo shuffle or regular BGs....thats it. Go back to the wild fast paced nature of no pvp gear or resilience or dampening or anything like that. Make plunderstorm the competitive space for pvp experience.
Personally, I really like the concept of the Arena/BGs and I wouldn't want it to be gone, I don't think Plunderstorm per se should be the new experience to WoW's PvP, it's a different type of game but it does emphasize some concepts that can be introduced to WoW's PvP in order to improve it. WoW might not be the best PvP game but it does bring a unique PvP experience, especially the Arena so people should think how to evolve it as opposed to replace it with something else... I think it would be better to have each class/spec with its own unique but fixed abilities so all classes+specs would have their iconic abilities, no talents, no professions, no gear (outside to cosmetics), no addons, no macros, everyone share the exact same UI excluding spells that may vary from class/spec to antoher, position of frames, position of spells and keybinds, last but not least have more seasonal rewards comparable to Plunderstorm.
Plunder storm isn't traditional World of Warcraft Player verse Player but is a Fortnite with WoW skins tacked on. It's a totally separate game that needed to use the WoW client to launch into the game because they didn't want to invest resources on an official launch and have it bomb. They invested $50,000 on a create tournament as a way to cheap out on advertisement for the game mode.
I played Plunder storm, got my 40 renown and left it within four days. It was toxic in the lobby with the barrel rolls and PvP telling the Player verse Environment people to shut up or "get gud". I would take normally WoW PvP over Plunder storm any day because it is also more friendly to people with hand disabilities and offers support classes that don't have the ability to maneuver like you need in hand-to-hand battle with controllers.
The chart is misleading due to the weekly Conquest Point cap on each character. A player can progress so much on their main character so, they work on an alt or 5 in the meantime until the aforementioned Conquest Point cap is lifted for the duration of the season.
TBH I think what made Plunderstorm popular is less buttons... I dont have to track 50 abilities of a Mage, Lock, Hunter, Priest, Paladin, Warrior, Rogue, Monk, Dragon, and more then track how these abilities react with one another PLUS track their CDs in my fuckin head while trying to remember my rotation and positioning before I die in one global.
Dude so true! Plunder needs it's own thing! It could be sick actually xD
Plunder storm is lower skill cap though so I have less interest in it
PvP was already hanging on by a thread in Cata & MoP not sure what you mean. TBC arena participation was MASSIVE if you still have access to the old Arena Junkies spreadsheets about how many teams there were per season based on titles and percentages. By the end of S8 WOTLK it had halved, though I believe that was the best era due to class design hitting a sweet spot between fun (just enough homogenization without destroying everything) and high skillcap that gave you something to grow towards.
By the end of Cata S11 there was again an ALMOST 50% reduction in PvP participation. Blizzard handled PvP very poorly in Cata (yes RBGs were a nice addition but there were a ton of problems with arenas), they basically shut down the tourney circuit in Cata I believe. That's why NAO showed up, players were trying desperately to salvage arenas. I wasted so much time spamming for arena teams in Cata and having to transfer characters to the more active realms and it was still a pain in the ass.
In MoP, the community was so dead that I quit after being like R2 on my battlegroup because the queues were just awful. There were only like two other teams we could queue into on Vindication which used to be a large battlegroup, and I was never even really like a R1 player (maybe for a brief stint during Cata I could've played at that level with the right team and some practice). They had to finally merge the BGs in mid-MoP because of how low participation got. I am 100% convinced the ONLY reason people look back on MoP fondly is because of the final arena season. By then they had a lot of the balance insanity finally sorted, the numbers pacing (damage and healing) felt maybe the best it ever had, even though class design was silly and all over the place at this point in WoW's history (it basically started to feel like a private fun server, not a professionally designed MMO).
Wrath was really it, but WoW is sort of not a "real" MMO these days, AND even if it were MMOs aren't "in". I think they need to seriously review WOTLK design from a class and combat pacing perspective, and combine that with modern QoL. The new UI customization is much better, the way loot works is fine now, but addons need to go. Classes need changed dramatically, solo shuffle could be great but the queues are terrible. They either need to fix SS, or dump it and focus on creating a much smoother system for helping players form real teams.
What would you think of a PvP revamp where we see each wow class represented, but pared down to their most basic elements? Make Pvp a fully separate and well supported form of content for WoW.
WoW needs a FFXIV style PVP system. Different game mode inside of the game that has its own skills, no gear, just PVP fun
healer disparage will always exist. no 1 is willing to play 1 in pvp cause dps are toxic towards healers.
WoW as a whole needs to be as simple as Plunderstorm, reactive gameplay with 5-8 buttons but being able to spec into different spells - something like GW2 but even simpler in terms of specing into builds you want. As for PVP, I don't think BR is the way to go, you might attract kids but old WoW Playerbase wouldn't be for it, but something like Overwatch would work great with WoW, it would even solve the Tank/Healer/DPS ratio and the queues would be minimal. Man just thinking about it gets me hyped up, but it's probably never gonna happen, atleast not for the next 3 expansions that have already been announced, because it would probably have to be a standalone thing.
It's not about pulling girls Xar. When "hot girls" play young guys like the Idea that there's a possibility they could play with them. It also makes them feel less like a basement dweller.
If they would make a arena style standalone game , thats what i would love.
They've got to disable addons on WoW
I've played arenas with friends since mop, I love it but not very good because I only really get 100-150 games in a season. I really only got to 1600 each season and pushing 1800 a few times and felt good because I felt I was learning and getting better from season to season, and that was good enough for me. But in DF season 1 I never got to 1400 and it felt awful, I tried again in season 2 when it started and never got to 1400 again, so why would I play a game that I cant ever get to the low mediocre rating I was getting before. I switched to keys and each season I push my rating and have got close to 3k on multiple alts each season and season 4 I am going to try to get 3k on all three roles. I know I will get the obligatory "get good scrub" responses but I have a career, a family, a home and a side business so 1600-1800 was good enough for me and I got the mount each season.
honestly if I want to play pvp, I don't play MMO games. I just play other PVP games. For me MMO is a PVE raiding game with friends. That's it.
I played pvp today it was fun I have a pve character and pvp character but I'm also returning after 8 years so it seems fresh