49. Train Controller and the Database with the Operations Manager at McKinley Railway.
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2021
- The Operations Manager uses both Train Controller and the Database linked together, to provide intricate control of train operations at McKinley Railway.
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I love that you say this is going to be a little nerdy, the whole thing is nerdy! This is why we enjoy your channel ha.
All the best
Glad you enjoy the channel! I was excited about getting this video released and the comments are great.
Lovely to see you have a junction named Fakenham - i grew up there!
I'm also running Train Controller on a small layout in my home office - the automation is so satisfying.
Not putting model railway operators out of work... Keep them in play! That's what you're doing. That's wonderful! What an awesome *family of railroading. You're also (almost) building the future of real-life operations.
Wow... baffling impressed. John British Columbia, Canada
*Hi, Charlie!
David, as per usual, love your work. Great fun for sure.
Thank you Mark, We appreciate your support.
David
@@dattouk David it is we, the people watching all around the world on UA-cam are thankful to you and your team for stretching modelling into excellent innovation. It’s a privilege to be seeing what your doing.
Great to see some clilps of the layout as cutaways in this one. I imagine this was quite a hard explanation to shoot - but you did it nicely and it all makes sense - well done to you and to Charlie.
The explanation of how you bring together semi-live asset tracking, a standardised iconography and integration of those into train controller was especially interesting. As you said, these foundational things are pretty essential to retaining overall control when you have so much model infrastructure and multiple control points. My hat is off to you!
Thank you Alan, It sometimes feels like that film a Bridge too far, System integration is never easy, but bit by bit things come together.
@@dattouk Fully appreciate that problem - most of my career has been in system integration and documentation production so I know the difficulties all too well. As you say, keep on keeping on and you get there eventually!
Awesome work
Fantastic, I love it keep the videos coming
Thanks, will do!
What an incredible set up you have there. It must have taken a monumental amount of man hours to program all that into your systems. I just hope that you have a fail-safe computer back-up system on there!
Hello Kevin,
You are right. The investment in man-hours has been huge. Both in the physical and logical. The digital world is backed up. We have safe copies on the cloud. The computers are standard PCs running on Windows 10. and Mac Min-Servers. We might lose a day or 3 to restore the world, but we should be able to get the world back in a week.
David
Great video, very helpful to me as am about to start making a modular layout with my continental German n gauge stock and was somewhat unsure whether to use train controller or one of the other many systems currently available. The track detection is very important to me and I have to get this right from the off otherwise it could be a mare. Thing is I have over 150 locos and that's why I feel TC will benefit me with it's data base but I will have so much to learn from the off hope I can grasp it all lol.
Don't think anyone appreciates the amount of investment and work that goes into making a large automated layout. I have been buying bits every week to get where I am now and am only now about to plan track layout and systems needed. Lucky you have a team of willing nerds to help you, where as I am a one man band.
I started off like you - In retrospect I call this Lone Wolf mode. I have one important suggestion: Make friends quickly and share the journey. It is more fun with others along for the ride.
Good luck...
@@dattouk Thanks for the advise it's much appreciated. Sadly most of my modelling friend are in Germany and since Brexit I have had to improvise already and not many into Euro rail side of thing in the UK. But that has not and will not deter me.
David, The timetable. Do you use actual time or a form of speeded up clock to run to? I suspect when you have an operating session you continue on from where you stopped the last session. So in real time at your house it's 7.30 p.m. but on McKinley it's 11 a.m. when the layout re-starts for this evening's session. Or do you all start with a cup of tea before getting trains running. I once belonged to a Railway Club where we used to raise money for club funds by recycling aliminium cans. We only drank beer. Never saw a cup of tea. When we took the layout to exhibitions the first item to go in the hall was the beer fridge. As you can see this was serious fund raising. Cheers, Chris Perry.
Hello Ainsley,
We use actual time because the shunting movements around the stations take time to execute. In fact we have real time, 1/2 time and 1/4 time depending on how well the operators are performing - sometimes it is important to slow things down. I can't envisage using accelerated time. We start and stop the clock and continue from where we left off and yes McKinley time is different to UK time. We always start with a cup of tea but the clock is paused when we do. Beer is banned while operating for now. It clogs the brain. However, it sounds like your railway club was more adventurous than ours.
David
Fascinating layout, I’ve been following for a while and really enjoy all of the nerdy technical detail.
How do your existing stations interface with train controller? (By which I mean, what is actually happened when the red buttons are pressed on the control panels?)
This is done courtesy of the DTM30 Control panel boards - They have an interlock feature which sends out a user defined sensor message to TrainController (TC) when the operator presses one of the interlock buttons . TC attempts to set a route as an action associated with that sensor (we add this sensor into TC). If TC doesn't already have a conflicting route set (because it has a train programmed to enter that area), it will execute/set that route. We define in TrainController that a unique switch address is set to Thrown when that route is set. That switch instruction is sent over loconet which the DTM30 sees and interprets from that designated switch message, confirmation that it's request for a route has been executed by TC. This means that TC will not (cannot) attempt to set a conflicting route in that area (typically a station throat) and hence we have that area of the layout covered by the route under user control. Any number of points button/switches on the control panel can be associated with an specific interlock so that they only work if the interlock for that area is ON. When the station operator has finished moving trains in that area he presses that interlock button again. This sends the corresponding sensor OFF message to TrainController. Train Controller is programmed to release the designated route. As part of the route being turned OFF it sends out a closed message for the previously designated switch. The panel sees that, turns off the interlock and disallows the associated push buttons. It is a bit involved to set up initially, but works flawlessly once implemented. If you would like to understand more, download the DTM30 manual from the SignaTrak web site below.
www.signatrak.co.uk/product-support/docs
Regards David
@@dattouk thanks for the detailed reply. Theres some clever stuff going on on your layout, for sure!
@@dattouk now that's what I call nerdy. Lovely stuff
Hi Dave.
An excellent system that is extremely well organised. Boris Johnson should offer you a position in government as Minister for Transport. 👍
Golly I wouldn't want that job for all the tea in china.
2 questions-
What if it's nessesary to introduce an Extra train that's not part of the anticipated schedule? Would the train need to have a route & schedule created on the fly since operators don't follow individual trains? How does that work?
How do you keep such a large layout clean? I would think you could have one person full time on cleaning just to avoid having a layer of dust on everything.
Hello Frank,
I took inspiration from the real railways looking at the web sites Realtimetrains and TrakSY. We have designed the software to have broadly the same three kinds of timetable entries they use. The first is the Working timetable WTT which is the core system we plan to develop for the stations and operators (This is actually fiendishly difficult to design). The second is the VAR which is there in the schedule, but triggered on demand and is primarily for freight flows to and from these yards. The last one is an STP (Short term plan), where we have to move stock at short notice. So yes, we will be introducing entries into the system to trigger movements at short notice.
Out of interest, I managed to purchase some original timetable path planning sheet (used) for the section of track between York and Northallerton in the early 1950s. They were based on a 12 hour clock printed on each side (12h each side) with the track sections down the vertical line and time across the page. It appears they drew one of these sheets every day and 95% of the movements were hand drawn in coloured pencils. The only paths that were printed and therefore cast in stone were the Flying Scotsman and a couple of others from Newcastle to Liverpool. Truly fascinating material.
The second point about cleaning is interesting. We produced a video Number 34. Have a peek and come back if you have more questions.
David
This is fascinating! I am using Digitrax, RFID and Train Controller Gold. How are you taking the RFID reading and creating a transponding message from it?
The database integration software send it out when the Ops Manager wants the train to be loaded into a specific block. It then sends out a Transponding ID associated with the relevant stock out on locoNet. We have to engage with Freiwald to add the functionality we need Namely: Train Orientation and Loco direction . More on that when we get somewhere. regards David
@@dattouk What a HELPFUL excellent response! I use Train Controller Gold but use Digitrax transponding. It is very unreliable: sometimes assigns trains to the wrong blocks, and often gets the orientation wrong. I’ve seen a lot of comments from users on the TC forum who have asked if a user might be able to cause a button to place a train in a block and the request is always denied. My RFID OTOH is extremely accurate and reliable. So, you are somehow having your software generate a transponding message in loconet and TC sees that as a typical loconet message and thus places the train into the correct block: is that the basics of it? Very clever. I’m surprised though that TC, given that information, doesn’t simply place the train into the block. Maybe because I don’t believe Loconet transponding message don’t include orientation/direction? If that’s the issue, have you considered RailCom messages? As I understand it, those do include direction and even speed.
My layout has one similarity to the McKinley: human operators build and switch trains, but when they leave the modeled portion of the layout, TC takes over and runs the train into staging. But since humans are building the trains, TC’s train tracking doesn’t work reliably (a especially if the train switches In route). What sort of modification is Herr Freinwald going to make? Will it be custom for McKinley, or will it be in a public release?
Hello Dave,
Congratulations for the whole layout ! I am particularly interested in the software/database part of your project. Is there any way to have access to the FMInterface that you have developped ?
Best, Francois.
I'll ask Steve. We keep it on GitHub, but its not accessible at the moment.
My mind might not be entirely blown, but it's in pre-ignition stage.
What happens if there's a problem (derailment, coupling failure, mug of tea on track, loco just giving up, etc) with a scenic train or indeed a regular train while under computer control? (Maybe there's another video in the wings on just that...)
Hello Andrew,
Here's a provocative statement: Computer controlled trains are probably safer than manually driven ones as the computer never gets distracted. It is also a good idea for a video. Thank you...
The most important thing to know is that TrainController (TC) is sensitive to blockages on the line. If a train derails, normally some of the wagons/coaches are still left on the track. Their presence is detected by the occupancy system. TrainController (as programmed on McKinley) never drives the next train into an occupied block. The same goes for train separations. Train Controller see's the section of train left behind as a blockage and will stop the next train at the preceding signal.
One common problem is when trains over-run a signal block by say 10 cm (SPADS) when instructed to stop at the signal. As a consequence the leading vehicle triggers the next block's occupancy. TC doesn't know there has been a SPAD, but won't restart the train because the block ahead is occupied.
The Operations Manager's (OM) job is a bit like Air Traffic Control. His job is to watch the 5 to 10 moving trains in TC and check on their progress. If he sees a train hasn't moved as planned, he has to investigate.
Generally these things are the exception to a normal operating session, but it does make for an interesting 5-minutes when it does.
Thanks for the video hint. We'll try and cover all the bases in that then.
Regards David
@@dattouk Thanks for the reply. I presume occupancy detection relies on all rolling stock drawing a current/creating a circuit. No need to answer now - I'll wait for the video! You've just reminded me of the time when a train didn't come out of a hidden section on my dad's layout: investigation revealed it had hit a dead mouse on the line.
you should have a wall to wall screen for the Train Controller display
We plan to do better than that. Its in the research phase at the moment but we want to give the Ops Manager the ability to see any of the five levels of the extension at a glance with embedded videos showing real-time video of whats happening.. Thats a subject for a future video when we have fleshed out the art of the possible.
So you have a web browser base mimic of your layout? It would be nice to show the world the moments of your trains. Something I could help you with by tapping into the database.
Hi,
Thanks a kind offer. Whats your brackground?
@@dattouk I focus on remote control within industrial situations. www.4ir.uk based in Bournemouth. This would be a nice side project as it would be something I would like to learn myself. Use the contact address on that site and then we can talk in-person.
I know a lot of hard work and time has been put into McKinley, but what is going to happen to the layout in the distant future?.
How far ahead are you thinking? In the far off future it will be scrapped. Most railways go that way. Up until that point we will enjoy it as much as possible and invent new bits to make the operations of trains even more interesting.
Seriously though, in 20 years time, the stock, the chips and the DCC equipment will be between 20 and 40 years old. Even now, most locos that have had 20 years use on mcKinley have had to be retired. They break down and we cannot get the parts.
Anyway, its the here and now that is the fun bit. Carpe the frizbee.
David
@14:16 you are explaining how the databases log what the train is doing and you gave us a detailed explanation on the screen at what the database was doing but we still didn't see the trains actually carrying out the commands. When will we see the trains operating the schedules.
Hello Glenn,
I replied to you a few minutes ago about running trains on the railway.
David
@@dattouk I last asked about seeing trains running three months ago. I understand the complexities in writing a database for the railway and your explanation of how far you have come with the project. If you could have demonstrated, not only how the train is tracked on the database, but the train actually carrying out that instruction on the railway itself it would have been so much more interesting and understandable.
Thats a really good idea.. I'll get that done for you. Thank you for taking the time to explain in your reply.
A very thorough explanation. Will we see the Railway actually operating soon? Thanks
Hi David,
We are still building the 5th level for Wakefield and Halifax. We are designing the Freight Manager screens for those sections and hope to start testing the extension in isolation of the existing layout in within the next 6 months. I'd like to say yes to your question, but the answer is to soon is probably "not yet".
David
@@dattouk I would enjoy seeing you video the construction phase. Because once the construction is done, if there’s no video history, then you can’t go back and re-record.
Also, is there a way that you can make any past video footage that wasn’t included in past processed videos available ?
The hobby has certainly come a long way from the simple oval with one controller , to what you and your team are producing . I would assume you get as much pleasure from the setting up of the systems , as you do from using your layout.
Evening Eric,
And more. The design of the timetables and thinking up interesting movements is a great challenge. Its a fantastic journey.
David
I approve of nerdy!
Question: if this database integration makes the operations manager's job easier, does he/she have to make the tea in the downtime?
Most excellent idea. Actually I think that role is the most stressful. Its a bit like Air Traffic Control, with cats being the pilots. The models have a mind of their own some weeks. We can run a train with the same loco for weeks at a time and then suddenly something goes wrong. and the OM is always the first to see it.
@@dattouk It would be very interesting to see a video about a typical operating session and how each individual contributes to the system.
We have done them. Scan back through the last 50. There are some there. The system is moving on inch by inch and so pieces become outdated, but the principles remain the same.
Great stuff. Nothing wrong with nerdy. The way you explain the integration works very well. Lost me slightly with the transponding that you say you don't use but are using. I guess if I understood everything that DCC could do I'd get it. I assume you are using functionality that would be possible if there was some additional hardware at trackside, but you are "fooling" train controller by sending the message from the database rather than from trackside detectors.
Yes, I got a little lost there too, and reached the same conclusion.
Hi Lee, yep your deductions are correct Dr. Watson.
Transponding comes in two parts. The hardware and chips that detect trains as supplied by Digitrax and once it has done that, the device sends a Transponding message over LocoNet. We are using RFID to detect locomotives, coaches and wagons. and then sending out our own version of the Transponding message over LocoNet.
regards
David
So David your using the transponding capabilities of the loconet signalling capabilities to send a “new” extended pieces of data for of backwards location information for both locomotives and guards vans by using rfid to detect those locational information.
Mark, I'm not quite sure I follow you. We use transponding message in LocoNet to try and persuade TrainController to put the stock in the block. At this point in time, TrainController doesn't oblige us and we don't know why. Once we have a bit of space I will be contacting Freiwald to persuade him to implement it as per the LocoNet Spec. This has nothing to do with signalling or anything in reverse or backwards. Its done to try and get TrainController with the programme. Wish me luck.
David
@@dattouk Good luck with that David
A train derails; between stations, or in a station, or .... Now what?
Hello Ray,
The software detects that the track isn't clear and the world waits until we clear the problem. I gave a full reply to Andrew Stevenson below. Have a read.
Regards
David
Way over my pay scale but 👍 anyway!