Very nicely explained, also in Romania the AFDD becomes mandatory from July 12 in residential sleeping spaces This provision must be approved by all EU member states, especially Italy and France 😂
So how does that work when it comes to the UK? Have we left yet or are we still a member of the EU? 🤷🏻♂️ I am one of the many millions who should of done a little bit more research before voting because I voted to leave and little did we know. It was a grave mistake for everyone. If they gave us the opportunity to vote again then I bet it'll be WELL OVER 90% that'll want to stay in. We were all lied to which doesn't surprise me one bit because MP are the BEST when it comes to their OWN agenda via back handers. Duck the government and duck all the $h!t €ûñt lying MPs who couldn't give a flying duck about the general public 😡 Rant over.
Don't tell people what regulations are in Romania because 99.9% of cases they don’t follow the law. Tell them what electricians are there, what tools they are using and so on and so forth.
Most AFDD nuisance tripping is mainly due to extension leads and appliances, not the main fixed wiring. The prime reasons are: *1)* Flexes undersized; *2)* Poor quality flex leads; *3)* kinking of flex leads. So, only using _quality_ flexible cables, not cheapo stuff, and that are _big enough_ to take the current, is the prime solution in eliminating nuisance tripping. This is something manufacturers have to bare in mind.
On my recent niceic visit, we discussed these devices, and the inspector said these devices are causing that many problems they are considering taking them out of the regulations.
The AFDD regs came in one year ago _mandatory_ for high-rise, care homes, etc. It is not retrospect. *_Sockets-outlets_* *not exceeding 32A.* It says *_"socket-outlets_* _with a rated current not exceeding 32 A"._ Note: Socket-outlet not circuit. A double socket is rated at 20 amp combing the two, a single is 13 amp. So they are both inside the regs'. A single 13A socket can be on a cooker circuit protected by a 40 amp disconnector at the consumer unit (they are on some cooker isolation switches). So this must be on an AFDD, as the _socket-outlet_ is less than 32 amps. In short it is saying that irrespective of the rating of the consumer unit disconnector (MCB, etc), it could be 6A, 16A, 32A, 40A circuits, if a socket is on it rated under 32 A an AFDD *has* to be fitted. This is even if a 15A round pin (they are legal) or 13A square pin socket is fitted. A washing machine radial with one socket supplying the washing machine? An AFDD has to be fitted unless the washing machine is hard wired in. So, a lighting circuit with 5A round pin sockets serving a few table lamps needs an AFDD. The regs *do not* discriminate between lighting or power circuits. The guidance on the _meaning_ of the words in BS7671 (regs) - AFDDs are *recommended,* on *all* circuits with _socket-outlets._ That is in *all* homes. _Recommended_ means _should._ This is they _should_ be fitted unless there is another alternative to arc fault detection.
In the USA, we have CAFCI “Combination Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter” devices. They detect both series (within a single conductor) and parallel (between two conductors) arc faults. We also have Dual Function circuit interrupters that combine a CAFCI and GFCI in a single circuit breaker package. The 2023 edition of our National Electrical Code (NEC) calls for widespread use of these. Whether they will actually be required depends on what edition of “the code” the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) has adopted, along with any modifications (additions or deletions) they have made.
@@brucefay5126 we have the jewel function ones too however the UK technology and the European ones act a lot better as they have small computer shipped running whilst the American and Canadian models do that they have discrete circuitry which means they can have slight issues
Is there such a thing as a whole-premises AFDD? Like the whole-premises SPDs? It feels like paying around £150 per circuit feels like a lot, but say £200 for a single one in a board is a much easier sell.
@@UKsystems hah I never thought I'd get an answer to this. I still feel like selectivity is kind of redundant for arc faults... Like, if an AFDD only cost twice as much as an RCBO it would probably be worth it for the convenience of not having the whole house go dark when an arc was detected... But are intermittent arcs really that common that it wouldn't be possible to diagnose which circuit it was on by testing each in turn with their individual RCBO to see which triggered the AFDD? I'm just an enthusiastic consumer wondering why anybody would spend £1500+ on multiple AFDDs ...
@@DevAnubis they are also probably an investment split load. AFD may be an option as Hager have great options but the main issue is you don’t want the whole house to be punched into darkness because your kettle trips and then you get burnt. That’s what the regulations want to avoid it’s also things like people may have important equipment so that it’s designed. It is definitely worth adding some circuits to an AFD so you minimise cost.
@@UKsystems oh so would the current regulations allow for example AFDDs for groups of circuits with RCBOs below them for individual circuits? E.g. to separate lighting and important circuits from general sockets?
@@DevAnubis you wouldn’t want to separate the important circuits you would always want to have for instance a split load RCD board but instead with AFD and RCBO that would be a more measure approach but you probably want three or four AFD to a maximum three RCBO each
This will be interesting to see how stable this proves in use. ARC protection has been around since😅 the 1990s for overhead 1kV to 33kV medium voltage lines. Stability has been.the main reason that few power utilities have adopted their use.
The technology in place now used in Europe and the UK has microcontrollers actually processing the signals to detect it whilst the high voltage ones and the ones used in North America don’t use a computer they use circuitry too which means it can’t differentiate between an ark that happens because of switching an ark that happens due to a fault
I had a Hagar AFDD installed on the main socket ring for my flat. To switch on my TV, Sound bar and associated equipment I use a Hue Smart Button to operate three Hue Smart Plugs at the same time. The AFDD trips about 5% of the times we use the Smart Button to turn the TV on. This is a little irritating.
Are there some examples of the waveforms for the "spark" situations (motor, light switch, etc) that its programmed to ignore. Would be nice to see the difference. I guess it ignores the light switch situation, because its so short, it will ignore because the "arc" or "spark" must be sustained for a time before it trips. And also thats why its programmed to also not react on a load less than 2.5 A. But a drill or hair drier or communotated fan that creates constant sparks/arcs during normal operation, how is that different from a damaged wiring? Is it the rotation of the rotor that creates different arc lengths which will be visible in the signature?
Motors give off sparks during normal operation, this is different to the sustained arcs produced by damaged or faulty wiring. The AFDDs can tell the difference.
Hi can you please advise 421.1.7 note I am sure it mentioned buildings with irreplaceable items such as museums require affd is this still the case Many thanks
Question, what would cause random spikes of over a 1000W for less than 0.1-1 second when no device is in use. and any device that might or would cause it is FULLY unplugged. I have these Rare/random spikes when I read the data of my smart-meter, that randomly happen for less than 1 second. It might just be a FALSE positive from the data that I pull directly from my smartmeter using a Consumer port it has. At least I think its a False positive as when I have a large load on, and I get a spike the total consumption is much higher than the rated Amperage main fuse for my home. I only have solid core wire in my home, so arcs should not be the cause of it. ----- Another question I would have is: Do you have any suggestions for ZIGBEE smart breakers, {I want to use one as a SUB-breaker, that sits behind the main breaker for a group/area} combined with a lower rated non-smart-breaker of 220V/10A This is so I can have a MAIN control for my yard-shed, that I can turn off when I am not present there.
The main issue is that the North American ones work off discrete circuit tree that will decide to trip the UK and European ones actually have a small computer that works at winter trip so the issues that people are bringing up have been known to happen in North America but the programming should hopefully avoid it
The differences here it’s intended and it comes out of the transformer so the fixed wiring systems protective devices can only measure the primary side of the transformer. I don’t think that will do anything due to transformers smooth the high frequency of it.
Electron mass detectors next, any picogram discrepancies in a megajoule of consumed power it trips and initiates a callout, great but every time the dog farts in the kitchen an alarm goes off at Sizewell B.
These devices will never be effective. The reason is not that there is no good software. Do not hope that the device will be improved over time, and it will become as reliable as circuit breakers. The reason is in the principle of action. The device is tested when sparking on a graphite electrode or through specially charred insulation. There is neither one nor the other in electrical installations. The arc between the metal conductors burns in the same way as the arc in a conventional switch. It is impossible to distinguish these types of sparking by electrical interference. However, any sparking is very easy to notice by identifying the circuit interruption using a conventional differential current device and an additional resistor. The same can be done with a voltage relay installed at the end of the circuit. Plus, I note that the most reliable sign of bad contact is not sparking, but an increase in temperature. With poor contact, most often there is no sparking, and there is heating and fire danger. Therefore, the future belongs to the control of non-electrical indicators. If you are interested, I suggest about 30 films on this topic on my channel.
Actually you failed to realise that the ones in North America and ones for use and high voltage powerlines used discrete circuitry but the issue was they missed out. Certain types of arts at the software ones can detect so the software ones are a lot better than the other type is really important to know. Yes it could be a bug but not in the way you were thinking.
It is impossible to discover something that does not exist. We looked at thousands of waveforms and made up spectra, there is no difference in the operation of a serviceable switch and a bad contact.
Another overpriced gimmick. I've seen these tested many times, they do not do what they claim to do. They are creating a false sence of safety, and are a phantom load to the grid. Good luck getting a client to pay for a board full of AFDDs too...
I've seen those tests too, however the software inside will be ugraded overtime to recognise more or other type of arc defects. This is just the beginning. In the next 10 years, we may have digital boards with PEN fault or IR monitoring...
@@UKsystems Big difference is RCDs actually work, and do what they say they do.... There are many many channels showing AFDDs being tested, and they do not work / do not trip / unreliable protection. John ward and dave savery being 2 that come to mind. Why would anyone pay £100 + ( each) for unreliable essentially to * beta test * a technology that still doesn't work properly.
@@arcadia1701e how weather is worth knowing with the Ark foot protection would you rather have some protection against arts or no protection against arts if you think about it? That way it’s not great that they don’t always work but it’s better than nothing.
Very nicely explained, also in Romania the AFDD becomes mandatory from July 12 in residential sleeping spaces This provision must be approved by all EU member states, especially Italy and France 😂
Good to know, thanks very much. 😊
So how does that work when it comes to the UK? Have we left yet or are we still a member of the EU? 🤷🏻♂️
I am one of the many millions who should of done a little bit more research before voting because I voted to leave and little did we know. It was a grave mistake for everyone.
If they gave us the opportunity to vote again then I bet it'll be WELL OVER 90% that'll want to stay in.
We were all lied to which doesn't surprise me one bit because MP are the BEST when it comes to their OWN agenda via back handers.
Duck the government and duck all the $h!t €ûñt lying MPs who couldn't give a flying duck about the general public 😡
Rant over.
Don't tell people what regulations are in Romania because 99.9% of cases they don’t follow the law. Tell them what electricians are there, what tools they are using and so on and so forth.
Most AFDD nuisance tripping is mainly due to extension leads and appliances, not the main fixed wiring.
The prime reasons are:
*1)* Flexes undersized;
*2)* Poor quality flex leads;
*3)* kinking of flex leads.
So, only using _quality_ flexible cables, not cheapo stuff, and that are _big enough_ to take the current, is the prime solution in eliminating nuisance tripping. This is something manufacturers have to bare in mind.
How does an undersized wire affect the voltage or current waveform and change it to cause the AFDD to trip?
@@deang5622
gaps can occur causing an arc to jump the gap.
On my recent niceic visit, we discussed these devices, and the inspector said these devices are causing that many problems they are considering taking them out of the regulations.
It'll be interesting to see how that pans out. We'll keep you posted. 😊
How was these devices? Have a little computer in so they could be reprogrammed on the new ones to fix certain issues?
just completed the course. thank you :-)
The AFDD regs came in one year ago _mandatory_ for high-rise, care homes, etc. It is not retrospect.
*_Sockets-outlets_* *not exceeding 32A.*
It says *_"socket-outlets_* _with a rated current not exceeding 32 A"._ Note: Socket-outlet not circuit. A double socket is rated at 20 amp combing the two, a single is 13 amp. So they are both inside the regs'.
A single 13A socket can be on a cooker circuit protected by a 40 amp disconnector at the consumer unit (they are on some cooker isolation switches). So this must be on an AFDD, as the _socket-outlet_ is less than 32 amps.
In short it is saying that irrespective of the rating of the consumer unit disconnector (MCB, etc), it could be 6A, 16A, 32A, 40A circuits, if a socket is on it rated under 32 A an AFDD *has* to be fitted. This is even if a 15A round pin (they are legal) or 13A square pin socket is fitted.
A washing machine radial with one socket supplying the washing machine? An AFDD has to be fitted unless the washing machine is hard wired in.
So, a lighting circuit with 5A round pin sockets serving a few table lamps needs an AFDD. The regs *do not* discriminate between lighting or power circuits.
The guidance on the _meaning_ of the words in BS7671 (regs) - AFDDs are *recommended,* on *all* circuits with _socket-outlets._ That is in *all* homes. _Recommended_ means _should._ This is they _should_ be fitted unless there is another alternative to arc fault detection.
In Canada we call it an AFCI arc fault circuit interrupter
Good to know, thank you! 😃
In the USA, we have CAFCI “Combination Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter” devices. They detect both series (within a single conductor) and parallel (between two conductors) arc faults. We also have Dual Function circuit interrupters that combine a CAFCI and GFCI in a single circuit breaker package. The 2023 edition of our National Electrical Code (NEC) calls for widespread use of these. Whether they will actually be required depends on what edition of “the code” the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) has adopted, along with any modifications (additions or deletions) they have made.
@@brucefay5126 we have the jewel function ones too however the UK technology and the European ones act a lot better as they have small computer shipped running whilst the American and Canadian models do that they have discrete circuitry which means they can have slight issues
Is there such a thing as a whole-premises AFDD? Like the whole-premises SPDs?
It feels like paying around £150 per circuit feels like a lot, but say £200 for a single one in a board is a much easier sell.
Hagar does do some split load AFD boards you could potentially do whole property but the issue is there is no selectivity
@@UKsystems hah I never thought I'd get an answer to this.
I still feel like selectivity is kind of redundant for arc faults... Like, if an AFDD only cost twice as much as an RCBO it would probably be worth it for the convenience of not having the whole house go dark when an arc was detected... But are intermittent arcs really that common that it wouldn't be possible to diagnose which circuit it was on by testing each in turn with their individual RCBO to see which triggered the AFDD?
I'm just an enthusiastic consumer wondering why anybody would spend £1500+ on multiple AFDDs ...
@@DevAnubis they are also probably an investment split load. AFD may be an option as Hager have great options but the main issue is you don’t want the whole house to be punched into darkness because your kettle trips and then you get burnt. That’s what the regulations want to avoid it’s also things like people may have important equipment so that it’s designed. It is definitely worth adding some circuits to an AFD so you minimise cost.
@@UKsystems oh so would the current regulations allow for example AFDDs for groups of circuits with RCBOs below them for individual circuits? E.g. to separate lighting and important circuits from general sockets?
@@DevAnubis you wouldn’t want to separate the important circuits you would always want to have for instance a split load RCD board but instead with AFD and RCBO that would be a more measure approach but you probably want three or four AFD to a maximum three RCBO each
This will be interesting to see how stable this proves in use. ARC protection has been around since😅 the 1990s for overhead 1kV to 33kV medium voltage lines. Stability has been.the main reason that few power utilities have adopted their use.
Yur, there'll be a period of testing, adjustment and settling in no doubt. 🤔
The technology in place now used in Europe and the UK has microcontrollers actually processing the signals to detect it whilst the high voltage ones and the ones used in North America don’t use a computer they use circuitry too which means it can’t differentiate between an ark that happens because of switching an ark that happens due to a fault
I had a Hagar AFDD installed on the main socket ring for my flat. To switch on my TV, Sound bar and associated equipment I use a Hue Smart Button to operate three Hue Smart Plugs at the same time. The AFDD trips about 5% of the times we use the Smart Button to turn the TV on. This is a little irritating.
In that case is smart plugs are not suitable they have a relay in doing switching that has arcing
Are there some examples of the waveforms for the "spark" situations (motor, light switch, etc) that its programmed to ignore. Would be nice to see the difference. I guess it ignores the light switch situation, because its so short, it will ignore because the "arc" or "spark" must be sustained for a time before it trips. And also thats why its programmed to also not react on a load less than 2.5 A. But a drill or hair drier or communotated fan that creates constant sparks/arcs during normal operation, how is that different from a damaged wiring?
Is it the rotation of the rotor that creates different arc lengths which will be visible in the signature?
Motors give off sparks during normal operation, this is different to the sustained arcs produced by damaged or faulty wiring. The AFDDs can tell the difference.
Any chance you can up the mic output - its really low.
Hm, sorry about that, can't change it for this video but we'll keep it in mind for future content. 👍
Clever piece of kit.
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how they affect safety in the coming years.
good video, audio is low tho?
Hi can you please advise
421.1.7 note I am sure it mentioned buildings with irreplaceable items such as museums require affd is this still the case
Many thanks
Question, what would cause random spikes of over a 1000W for less than 0.1-1 second when no device is in use. and any device that might or would cause it is FULLY unplugged.
I have these Rare/random spikes when I read the data of my smart-meter, that randomly happen for less than 1 second.
It might just be a FALSE positive from the data that I pull directly from my smartmeter using a Consumer port it has.
At least I think its a False positive as when I have a large load on, and I get a spike the total consumption is much higher than the rated Amperage main fuse for my home.
I only have solid core wire in my home, so arcs should not be the cause of it.
-----
Another question I would have is: Do you have any suggestions for ZIGBEE smart breakers, {I want to use one as a SUB-breaker, that sits behind the main breaker for a group/area} combined with a lower rated non-smart-breaker of 220V/10A
This is so I can have a MAIN control for my yard-shed, that I can turn off when I am not present there.
The main issue is that the North American ones work off discrete circuit tree that will decide to trip the UK and European ones actually have a small computer that works at winter trip so the issues that people are bringing up have been known to happen in North America but the programming should hopefully avoid it
On an EIC what BS EN number are people putting for an AFDD?
Rippin Gateway
What about arc welding?
🤔
The differences here it’s intended and it comes out of the transformer so the fixed wiring systems protective devices can only measure the primary side of the transformer. I don’t think that will do anything due to transformers smooth the high frequency of it.
Electron mass detectors next, any picogram discrepancies in a megajoule of consumed power it trips and initiates a callout, great but every time the dog farts in the kitchen an alarm goes off at Sizewell B.
421.1.7 note 2 suggests a non CU placement is acceptable. So..............interesting
These devices will never be effective.
The reason is not that there is no good software.
Do not hope that the device will be improved over time, and it will become as reliable as circuit breakers.
The reason is in the principle of action.
The device is tested when sparking on a graphite electrode or through specially charred insulation.
There is neither one nor the other in electrical installations.
The arc between the metal conductors burns in the same way as the arc in a conventional switch.
It is impossible to distinguish these types of sparking by electrical interference.
However, any sparking is very easy to notice by identifying the circuit interruption using a conventional differential current device and an additional resistor.
The same can be done with a voltage relay installed at the end of the circuit.
Plus, I note that the most reliable sign of bad contact is not sparking, but an increase in temperature.
With poor contact, most often there is no sparking, and there is heating and fire danger.
Therefore, the future belongs to the control of non-electrical indicators.
If you are interested, I suggest about 30 films on this topic on my channel.
Actually you failed to realise that the ones in North America and ones for use and high voltage powerlines used discrete circuitry but the issue was they missed out. Certain types of arts at the software ones can detect so the software ones are a lot better than the other type is really important to know. Yes it could be a bug but not in the way you were thinking.
It is impossible to discover something that does not exist. We looked at thousands of waveforms and made up spectra, there is no difference in the operation of a serviceable switch and a bad contact.
Roob Burgs
Another overpriced gimmick. I've seen these tested many times, they do not do what they claim to do. They are creating a false sence of safety, and are a phantom load to the grid. Good luck getting a client to pay for a board full of AFDDs too...
I've seen those tests too, however the software inside will be ugraded overtime to recognise more or other type of arc defects. This is just the beginning. In the next 10 years, we may have digital boards with PEN fault or IR monitoring...
It's all very reminiscent of when the regs changed on RCD protection. The price of these will come down no doubt, just as they did with RCBOs.
Is this what you think about RCD because the same kind of skeptic was around them until they are commonly accepted?
@@UKsystems Big difference is RCDs actually work, and do what they say they do.... There are many many channels showing AFDDs being tested, and they do not work / do not trip / unreliable protection. John ward and dave savery being 2 that come to mind. Why would anyone pay £100 + ( each) for unreliable essentially to * beta test * a technology that still doesn't work properly.
@@arcadia1701e how weather is worth knowing with the Ark foot protection would you rather have some protection against arts or no protection against arts if you think about it? That way it’s not great that they don’t always work but it’s better than nothing.
tasp j'ai jamais bricoler electricité ni eau ni meuble ni visse vie
your voice is too low