The best snipers today are the Canadians, who work in 4 man teams. No.1 is the sniper, No.2 is the spotter. No.3 and No.4 sweep the air in front of the bullet.
Donald Thankyou you have taken my tactical thinking to the next level The Maxim machine gun introduced over the horizon fire that my GPMG could do with ease as they thoughtfully supplied a sight But to be able to snipe over the horizon WOW WHAT A
The individual most responsible for improving the quality of British sniping during WW1 was Hesketh Prichard, who also made a name for himself as an explorer, author, big game hunter, and cricketer. He also invented the sliding loophole for snipers, and set up the British sniping school, both mentioned here.
I inherited my Grandpa's M1917(R) in 30-06 with matching Bayonet. Whenever I take it to the range, military collectors never fail to try buying it. Lol, in great shape with an almost unissued bore. They shoot like a dream and destroy the 1903 Springfield everytime!
A decent 1903 shoots sub moa.....like the one made in 1912 that my dad got in 1957 for 35 bucks. I have a 1917 as well and it's been through hell but still shoots clover leaf groups too. Any good shooter can shoot either well.
When my grandad did his basic training with the Cheshire Regiment the P14 was just being introduced. At first nobody liked it but he did so well with it that he was promoted from boy bugler to sniper. He served until the armistice.
@@liampaterson3424 My understanding is that sniper training had fallen out of favour in the Army, but came back with a bang in the 2000's for obvious reasons, so while the RM's had a sniper school throughout, the Army had to restart a full training program.
I have a 1917 .30-06. And, I really enjoy comparing and contrasting other WW1 rifles. Thank you for the opportunity to view another wonderful example of firearms history.
Needed a mechanism that didn't need rezeroing each time. Not like you get a couple of fouling shots in battle and an opportunity to re-zero on paper. Lets be honest though, minute of german head was probably good enough.
You are a great history teacher! Patiently explaining intricate mechanisms while also giving a very thorough background to these mechanical marvels. Your passion for this field is contagious.
Remington built a lot of model 30, 30S, and 720 sporting rifles using the left over receivers of M1917's after the war. One of my friends has one in 30 06. Gorgeous rifle, the metal finish, bluing, and stock work make any 700 I've ever seen look like an el cheapo.
I can't wait for the day they finally bury that platform, it's an embarrasment to us, sure the newest iteration has worked the kinks out but it's inherently inferior to other platforms, just give up on the supposed need for a bullpup i say.
Bullpups have many advantages to standard designs though. not just longer barrel with a shorter overall length, but its easier to maneuver due to the weight being closer to your chest. sure there are downsides like slightly clumsy trigger pull but i would by no means call it inferior or superior, just different. most of its faults can be fixed whilst its pros are inherit to its bullpup design.
One of the first guns I built when I started gunsmithing was based on a Remington 1917 action with a surplus Eddystone 2 groove barrel left in it's native 30-06 chambering. Fitted into a much modified Anshutz 22lr stock it became my first hunting rifle and with 165gr Sierra Game Kings and a 4x Leupold scope, it to this day, will regularly put 3 shots into less than an inch at 100yds. It also took my my first elk. A most excellent basis for the British needs!
In 1965 Service Armament ran ads in several US gun magazines offering "P-14 sniping rifles plus scope and case, vg,$89.95, good $79.95. Oh, for a time machine and some old cash.
Excellent rifle action to use in custom builds. I built a 458 Winchester on the P14 and both a 25/06 Wildcat 30 Gibbs on American P17s. The super strong actions were able to be polished up to work like a dream and the accuracy was perfect.
Fascinating. My grandfather survived being a British WW1 sniper for 6 months when the average life expectancy of a sniper was 6 weeks. I would love to have a go with one of these to see how it handles against a modern hunting rifle.
When I was in the British army I did shoot alot being part of the shooting team I must say lee Enfield mk3 with a x8 mag scope was fun to shot the action was so smooth recoil was very easy but the range was amazing we were zeroing to 300m with 40mm group and hitting targets up to 1300m we did the same thing with most ww1 and ww2 era rifles
At the moment I am reading about sniper during the first world . You video has given me a far better insight into the riles used. So thank you . I hope one day to be able to hold one
I really appreciate that Ian points out that the standards expected in marksmanship in 1917 were completely different from today's, with our high tech manufacturing that makes a 1.5moa laughable. It is easily forgotten that there was no computer guided machines that produced these rifles. All were manufactured and fitted by hand.
I've read an article that said that the rifle was considered to have poor balance (top-heavy) to be used as a battle rifle, but was ideally suited for its role as a sniper.
Ian, thank you for the videos. My home is currently underwater from hurricane Harvey, my mother and grandmother in a shelter, and I'm barracked in a 911 operations center on a radio while we attempt rescue. The familiarity and enjoyment I find in your videos is a comfort right now believe it or not. Even some of our officers who are off are watching with me. Thank you for what you do!
I have a M1917. It was a lend-lease rifle that eventually made its way to Denmark where it got the orange "30-06" orange band and a "M53/17" range card on the stock. It's an awesome rifle.
I love my era p-14. Never took a shot out further than 400 yards, but was always able to do fairly decent groups with just the iron sights and ammo I had built for it .
I think it’s been over-polished. I suspect that telescopic sight was painted black in service. The last thing a sniper wants is the sun reflecting off a shiny brass surface. 😬😂
As a Brit Army qualified marksman I am in awe of the First guy was a member if my memory serves me correctly of the 60th or 96th Rifles My memory lets me down I just remember the inspiration
Another great vid... I've attended Appleseed project shoots.. Love that you're talking MOA and how hard it is to achieve it in battle... I encourage everyone to attend an Appleseed shooting project... Lots of neat shooting info to make you a better shot. Plus some American history to go along with sharpshooting..... keep the good vids coming...
If you watch more u will understand more. Happend to me so, I am not obsessed with guns. I really like to know how something is build or how it functions. + there are often a cool story to tell.
The Lone Wanderer as if we have a few dozen thousand dollars to spare for something that worths half that. Auctions are only for those that want something reeeeelly much
Slugger Stark, jealous, would love that rifle, or the P14. One of the reasons the P17/14 is fast vs the Mauser 98 or the Springfield 03 is the dogleg bolt knob, even though it is a magnum length action. Putting the bolt knob back means your hand moves a lot less to grab the bolt, and a lot less to reacquire the trigger, virtually eliminating two gross movements when cycling. The SMLE is very fast because of the rearward bolt handle, shorter throw, sixty degree unlocking instead of ninety. Great rifles. One of my Steyr SSGs(PIIK) has a swept back oversized bolt knob to achieve the same advantage...decades later. Definitely faster. Steyr didn't do this with my other one(P69 aka PI), took them a while to remember the lessons of WWI lol:). Stay safe.
TGuy (about my age (68 now) about 10 years ago, brought one of these to ouir monthly collectors club meeting here in Lake Worth Florida....he said that at the time (most likely in the early 80s it almost caused a dee-vorce...he paid 10K for it...he also had the numbered can for the scope...
To help the sniper,or any soldier, with iron sighted range estimation,the front sight was engineered so that a standing man at 400 yards appeared to be the same height as the front sight blade when viewed through the rear aperture. The designers at Enfield Lock didn't miss any details when designing the P13/P14. The same sighting arrangement applies to the M1917 US .30-06 rifles,and was carried over by the British in their No4Mk1 service rifle.
The side/lateral scope mounting was, I believe, quite deliberate. The school I was at, back in the 1970/80s, was founded by ex-servicemen from WW2. I remember a teacher who took us on scout activities (he had seen service in the jungles of asia) telling us how you would squeeze forward with your rifle sideways to keep your profile as low as possible. I seem to remember him mentioning scopes laterally mounted but I can't remember any details other than remembering that it made perfect sense to do so. However, from what you are saying about effective range capabilities of optics/rifles in WW1 a low-as-possible profile would surely have to have been a necessity in flat trench warfare with nothing to hide behind.
I got a sporterized p14 handed down from a friend that passed away and man what a well built rifle and kicks like a horse. One thing he was planning on doing to this rifle was having it rechammbered in 338 lupla
I have a M1 Garand that I have a non permanent side mount scope on it and have shot it out to 750 yards and have found that the offset doesn't affect that POI to any noticeable degree. Using a 12x50 Simmons I have found that with a 200 yard zero, at 750 yards that offset causes the POI to be less than 2 moa shift. I did notice a much bigger change using a 100 yard zero to the tune of around 4 to 5 moa.
I have a Husqvarna in 9.3x57 Mauser with an offset scope. I did exactly what many British soldiers did. I zeroed the scope with a couple inches of offset so that the windage would always remain the same at any distance.
Original left-mounted scopes for the SMLE are rare, as the mounting tended to be thrown away post-WW1 when armourers salvaged the scope for Army stores. I was offered a well provenanced Mk 3 SMLE with such a scope, back in 2012 for £3500, a silly price then, but a missed investment as I've recently seen examples in the UK changing hands for around £8000.
I have owned two P14s... they were both accurate to about 1.5 MoA with decent handloads. Both of them liked the Hornady 150gr spire point in front of about 47gr of BL-C2 powder giving a bit over 2700fps. Deadly on deer sized targets.... Wish I still had them!...
I reckon you would get tighter grouping if you measured your chamber... only draw back bullet heads might not be seated deep enough to fit in the mag... thats assuming you didn’t already do that.. would be a very interesting rifle to load for.. big respect to you.
The P14 Enfields and the P17's [in .30-06] are considered by many gun gurus to be the best bolt action rifles fielded in World War I. They are actually a product improved M98 Mauser. The aperature rear sight makes them more accurate then the SMLE, the 98 Mauser, or the 03 Springfield. Also another advantage they had was that you didn't have to forge the bolt handle downward when converting it to a sniper rifle with a 12 o'clock scope mount as you do with a Mauser or Springfield.
Hi Ian, I live in Krugersdorp in South Africa and inherited a P14, not the sniper edition, from my late father. My late father was in business in a little town in the Western Transvaal named Sannieshof just after the WW2. A guy owed my father some money, which he could not pay and instead gave him the P14 in lieu of payment. Unfortunately, at the time there was a "movement" to make military rifles "sporting" by removing some of the original wood and other funny feeble gunsmithing attempts. Unfortunately this P14 was subjected to, luckily only removal of some wood and a sissy pad added on the stock. I did some research and found it was manufactured by Winchester as the serial number on the rifle starts with a W. It was interesting however to have noted no British markings on this rifle, but clearly stamped by the manufacturer on 2 places ( as far as I can remember as it is in the gun safe and I do not want to take it out now) the following: NOT ENGLISH MAKE. I have found that very strange. It would have been logical that it should be British surplus, as we were a British colony at the time of WW1 and WW2. I have tried to contact Winchester Rifle Coy several times, but have had no success. I would appreciate it if you have the knowledge to advise me the reason for the stamps, but really do not expect you to go out of your way to find out, if you do not know offhand. My son shot his first Warthog at 92 metres in 2006 with the open sight P14.. He was 16 at the time. The rifle still renders very accurate shooting. Love your channel and thanks.
It may have been an American production, post WWI. If it's a 30-06, that's definitely the American run. Up near the front site there should be a W and a MM-YY stamped. That'll help you figure exactly where and when it was made. But mainly the caliber will barrow it down tremendously
Ian might like a trip to the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House Museum when next visiting The Royal Armoury in Leeds. Also we have the Webley & Scott Factory on the border with West Bromwich . But not certain if it has a museum attached.
Hello Ian, this is an old video, so im not sure youll see this, but I love your videos and your mission. whenever i get a new rifle, I check to see if youve done a video in it. I recently came into, you guessed it, a 1917. Its very interesting as ive never seen the quick detach scope it has on it, made by Oigee, Berlin. At any rate, Ive never had one in my hands before, and I was hoping, maybe, even though I will have sorted it out, and youre busy Im sure, you could possibly follow up with a 1917 complete disassembly? Its my favorite part of every video, and Im always impressed with some of the firearms youve figured out how to break down on your own. Thank you for your dedication.
If you look after them, they are a good investment - If you can -part with them when you need the coin. I look at some of the rifles I have owned, what I paid for them, and what they would be worth now if I still owned them and it depresses the hell out of me that I don't own them any more. You might be broke now but your rifles could be the best investment you ever make.
I own a Periscope Prism SMLE with the standard offset PPCo mount. As soon as you pick up the rifle and start using it, it is immediately apparent why the scope is offset - and it has absolutely nothing (IMHO) to do with charger loading. The problem with all of the scopes available in WW1 - German as well as Allied - is that the scopes have an extremely narrow field of view. In practice, what this means is that it is very hard to seek and acquire targets using the scope itself. In the WW1 sniping environment, they usually describe only having a split second to aim and take a shot. Even if you can see the target with the naked eye, it is difficult to switch to the narrow FOV in the scope. If you shoot on a military range with military targets - e.g. British No14 "Huns' Heads", against a sandy backdrop - you can see just how hard it is to acquire the target using the scope alone, especially if the targets appear at random locations. With an offset scope such as the PPCo No1, the scope is positioned parallel to and "eyes width" away from the iron sights. Thus what you can do is use the right eye and iron sights to come up on target as with a normal snap shot, and then switch focus to the left eye to take the shot through the scope. In practice, this is a very, very, fast and accurate method of snap-sniping. To add credence to this view, its worth remembering that No3(T)s with offset scopes in Alex Martin mounts were being ordered by the War Office as late as 1938: thus there had to be a valid operational reason why these rifles were desired in preference to the standard over-bore No3(T).
Britain have quite usually been paving the way in regards to sniping: first wide spread issue of rifles, training in skirmishing and sharp shooting, general sniping standards etc.
Interesting comment about the British introducing the two man teams. Billy Sing who was called the sniper of Gallipoli usually was part of a two man team.
Thanks, Ian, for another interesting video. Keep it up! If I may add. It's correct a left-of-axis scope mount was disliked by snipers as awkward for shooting out of vertical loopholes. - A left scope mount would however not have posed a practical sighting-in problem on a left-hand twist rifle like a .303 SMLE. After the first 100yds .303 bullets would deviate left by 1" every 100yds. By 300yds, a 2" left deviation neatly converges with the offset scope's lateral axis. - Fast, sustained, aimed fire was part of the sniper's job description, e.g. suppressing enemy machinegun posts during advances, so hanging on to stripper clip use was a responsible tactic. A big question lingers: why did someone not just redesign (or simply left tilt) the loophole steel plates?
After Dunkirk, America shipped England a bunch of Pattern 17s (the 30-06 version of the pattern 14). They were used mostly in the "Home Guard" and had a red band painted around the stock so as to reduce the likelihood that someone would try to load .303 into them. I see these occasionally at gun shows. Alvin York actually used a p17 (and 1911) in spite of Gary Cooper using a 1903 Springfield in the movie. I once talked to a guy that said he used a P17 as a sniper rifle in Korea. He said it was "A very good rifle out to 1000 yds."
Good quality Pattern 17's in original military configuration (somewhat) hard to come by. The receiver was one of the strongest ever built, and a lot of them were cut up to make heavy caliber custom rifles when you could buy them for $10 ea.
WOW!!! A M1917 rifle still being used during the Korean War! I am impressed. I would have thought they would have all been surplused to the civilian market or disposed of by World War II lend lease. I had a 1917, and I thought it was a fine rifle. I felt that the 17 was sturdier than the 03.
My first full-bore rifle was a Winchester made P14, re-barreled for 7.62mm Nato with aperture sights and it was reasonably accurate up to 1000 yards, but I replaced it with a Lee-Enfield No.4 and I found that much better, but it is all down to the user's preference. I was disappointed with the weakness of the P14 extractor spring
Basically the rifle you see in "Dad's Army". It was issued to the Home Guard issued in both .303 and .0-06 calibres . I believe the latter had red bands painted on the butts to identify that they did not fire standard British standard ammunition.
You mentioned the Bannerman, family and I was curious if you may do a video on them and the castle in upstate NY. I grew up in that area and know some of the stories as well as the famous fire and explosion of his armory. I would love to know more.
Kinda makes you wonder, some of the best snipers in the world made excellent kills with 2-3 MOA rifles. MOdern PSR shooters get upset when their 5000 dollar + rifle doesn't shoot sub .75 MOA inch groups. I bought my rifle from a guy who was not happy with his .6 MOA groups he was getting with tight handloads. I told him that he is right but I am concerned about it also so ill offer you half of what you paid. lol
Very nice rifle. The scope mount looks solid and repeatable. With the 2 claws etc, it should return to zero. I can see why this would be preferred over left mounted scopes. I love my US M1917 with a very low serial number. It's a great rifle with better iron sights than anything else of the period. I haven't shot it much, but i have shot it enough to know how good it is. Sounds like the British made very good decisions in how to "kit out" these rifles. 1.5 MOA was pretty darn good back then. An exceptional iron sighted service rifle back then would give 2-3 MOA on average, with a very rare one (usually an M1903) doing a little better. Great video as always. Thank you
It's funny, if the M1917 had the same fine-adjustment rear sight as this sniper model of the Pattern 14, it might well have replaced the M1903 as the standard-issue rifle. The fact that it lacked such fine adjustments was something that the brass thought was important, since they seemed to not grasp that war is not the same as shooting competitions. We probably also would've ended up with 6-round stripper clips being made had that been the case, since there's room for a 6th round in the 1917's mag.
Interestingly to me anyway, the character Charlie in this summer's Wonder Woman movie carried a M1917 (after watching this it may have been a P1914) sniper rifle. At the time I thought it was neat his character had a M1917 so hearing Ian with the rest of the story was pretty cool.
The P-14 sniper was the standard Australian issue sniper rifle well into WW2. They were most notably used in the bitter"guerilla" operations against the Japanese in Timor. The weak link in the system was the Patt 18 scope. This is a "lift" of a German design from before WW1. As can be seen, the scope had to be disassembled to be fitted with the rings. No dry nitrogen or other such Gucci features there. The problem with the P-14 in active service in WW2, was that NOBODY had made spare parts (especially interchangeable spares) for the P-14 since early 1917. Towards the end of WW2, Oz went on to sort-of adopt a No1 Mk 3-based sniper rig , still mounting the dreadful Patt 18 optic in yet another couple of variations of the German-style mounting system seen on the P-14. In a wonderfully bizarre and somewhat dismaying twist, the Australian No1 Mk 3 (T) units were STILL the (limited) issue sniper kit right through the 1960s and into the 1970's. The latest official repair and maintenance documentation I have seen for them is dated 1976. in 1979, the Parker Hale M-82 was introduced. This was essentially the same rifle adopted by Canada as the C2 sniper. A least it was finally a rifle that used 7.62 NATO ammunition and had the optically and mechanically excellent Kahles ZF69 on top.
Anyone interested in British sniping in WW1 should read "Sniping in France"| by Major Hesketh-Pritchard DSO MC. He started the concept of training schools or British soldiers in WW1and his book is still required reading for all arms of the British arm forces sniper candidates.
Ian has been selling blood regularly to buy this after he first saw it. I wonder if they blackened the brass in the field? Then again back then I can see some officer making him shine it every time he got back.
on the no. 8 rifle that brass disk on the stock is used to signify a barrel bulge, i have a feeling this will carry over to this rifle, it would be interesting to see down the bore to confirm.
I love my P14 sporter and it's shockingly accurate. It's an Eddystone, so the reputation isn't that good, but fuck, it laces its shots into one hole. The guy I bought it from was using it as a varmint rifle with irons, and using it to hit richardson's ground squirrels in open prairie. Color me impressed.
Francis Pegahmagabow used a Ross, which just goes to show that it takes more than a great rifle to make a great sniper. I wonder if he ever got his hands on one of these bad boys
I bought two P-14's back in the 90's. Both are Winchesters one in 303 British the other in 30-06. The 303 rifle has it's scope, the other does not, I'm still looking for one with it claw mounts, the bases are on the rifle. They are excellent rifles and they were cheap back then, I gave $70 for each of them
Hmm ..... I had a 1917 in 30-06 that was set up as a match rifle by some unknown gun smith with that same rear sight. Used it for two years in DCM competition back in the late 80s. As much as I wish I still had those guns but even more so I wish I had the eye sight I had back then.
In Britain post WW2 it was the favored rifle for modification to target shooting, and rebarreling to 7.62 when it was adopted, with vernier sights it was a great rifle.
Interesting that this had a scope with 3 X magnification for ww1 and in ww2 the mosin nagant had the pe scope with the same magnicication but still achieved good results in the hands of people like Lyudmila Pavlichenko
The best snipers today are the Canadians, who work in 4 man teams. No.1 is the sniper, No.2 is the spotter. No.3 and No.4 sweep the air in front of the bullet.
Donald Thankyou you have taken my tactical thinking to the next level The Maxim machine gun introduced over the horizon fire that my GPMG could do with ease as they thoughtfully supplied a sight But to be able to snipe over the horizon WOW WHAT A
Okayyyy...🙄
hahaha
You made a gun joke out of a curling joke.
Bravo, good sir. Bravo.
Explains why they're so good. Also, when they hit targets they all say "Sarry!"
The individual most responsible for improving the quality of British sniping during WW1 was Hesketh Prichard, who also made a name for himself as an explorer, author, big game hunter, and cricketer. He also invented the sliding loophole for snipers, and set up the British sniping school, both mentioned here.
I think he also made the Pritchard bayonet for the webley mk4 revolver
I inherited my Grandpa's M1917(R) in 30-06 with matching Bayonet. Whenever I take it to the range, military collectors never fail to try buying it. Lol, in great shape with an almost unissued bore. They shoot like a dream and destroy the 1903 Springfield everytime!
A decent 1903 shoots sub moa.....like the one made in 1912 that my dad got in 1957 for 35 bucks. I have a 1917 as well and it's been through hell but still shoots clover leaf groups too. Any good shooter can shoot either well.
Mine was re-chambered to .300 H&H mag; should have took it on out to .300 Weatherby.
Man what a treasure you have. I hope you pass it down through the family, it will only become more priceless.
Cool story bro……total bullsheet…but cool story 😂
@@smyers820gm I'd be more likely to believe him then you at this rate
When my grandad did his basic training with the Cheshire Regiment the P14 was just being introduced. At first nobody liked it but he did so well with it that he was promoted from boy bugler to sniper. He served until the armistice.
Never touched a gun in my life but theses videos are so interesting to watch
I dont like guns but I like mechanic and history so i'm enjoying this
jjohnston94 more like what's wrong with the uk, gotta jump through hoops to get a 22 never mind a proper gun 🤕
Joshie Doom maybe one day I'll have enough money to move out there, here's to hoping
Jacob Evans
Agreed..........
Jacob Evans ditto
Great video, and made me chuckle at the thought of some poor sniper getting "really close up view of the steel rifle plate"
The British sniper training program became the model for most modern day western sniping programs
I think the main training unit for all UK armed forces sniping was the Royal Marines, at least it was in the 1980s.
@@liampaterson3424 My understanding is that sniper training had fallen out of favour in the Army, but came back with a bang in the 2000's for obvious reasons, so while the RM's had a sniper school throughout, the Army had to restart a full training program.
The best American shooters started in the early teens
@@george5156 the 20 teens
I have a 1917 .30-06. And, I really enjoy comparing and contrasting other WW1 rifles. Thank you for the opportunity to view another wonderful example of firearms history.
Jesus christ that scope is a work of art.
And the way it comes off? Ohhhhhhh!
Needed a mechanism that didn't need rezeroing each time. Not like you get a couple of fouling shots in battle and an opportunity to re-zero on paper.
Lets be honest though, minute of german head was probably good enough.
You are a great history teacher! Patiently explaining intricate mechanisms while also giving a very thorough background to these mechanical marvels. Your passion for this field is contagious.
Remington built a lot of model 30, 30S, and 720 sporting rifles using the left over receivers of M1917's after the war. One of my friends has one in 30 06. Gorgeous rifle, the metal finish, bluing, and stock work make any 700 I've ever seen look like an el cheapo.
Ah, British weaponry always makes me feel patriotic, truly our army marches with the best gea-
*Suddenly, L85s.*
Avensis Astari Well it's time to switch back to the number 4.
I can't wait for the day they finally bury that platform, it's an embarrasment to us, sure the newest iteration has worked the kinks out but it's inherently inferior to other platforms, just give up on the supposed need for a bullpup i say.
Or get an aug a3
Bullpups have many advantages to standard designs though. not just longer barrel with a shorter overall length, but its easier to maneuver due to the weight being closer to your chest. sure there are downsides like slightly clumsy trigger pull but i would by no means call it inferior or superior, just different. most of its faults can be fixed whilst its pros are inherit to its bullpup design.
*FAM-ass
One of the first guns I built when I started gunsmithing was based on a Remington 1917 action with a surplus Eddystone 2 groove barrel left in it's native 30-06 chambering. Fitted into a much modified Anshutz 22lr stock it became my first hunting rifle and with 165gr Sierra Game Kings and a 4x Leupold scope, it to this day, will regularly put 3 shots into less than an inch at 100yds. It also took my my first elk. A most excellent basis for the British needs!
In 1965 Service Armament ran ads in several US gun magazines offering "P-14 sniping rifles plus scope and case, vg,$89.95, good $79.95. Oh, for a time machine and some old cash.
Excellent rifle action to use in custom builds. I built a 458 Winchester on the P14 and both a 25/06 Wildcat 30 Gibbs on American P17s. The super strong actions were able to be polished up to work like a dream and the accuracy was perfect.
Lol that's depressing.
My local Gunsmith built a 416 Rigby on a P14. It is a work of art
Fascinating. My grandfather survived being a British WW1 sniper for 6 months when the average life expectancy of a sniper was 6 weeks. I would love to have a go with one of these to see how it handles against a modern hunting rifle.
When I was in the British army I did shoot alot being part of the shooting team I must say lee Enfield mk3 with a x8 mag scope was fun to shot the action was so smooth recoil was very easy but the range was amazing we were zeroing to 300m with 40mm group and hitting targets up to 1300m we did the same thing with most ww1 and ww2 era rifles
The action on those rifles is so smooth
At the moment I am reading about sniper during the first world . You video has given me a far better insight into the riles used. So thank you . I hope one day to be able to hold one
I really appreciate that Ian points out that the standards expected in marksmanship in 1917 were completely different from today's, with our high tech manufacturing that makes a 1.5moa laughable. It is easily forgotten that there was no computer guided machines that produced these rifles. All were manufactured and fitted by hand.
CAD/CAM makes the extreme ends of the range between best and worst a lot less, but best accuracy today still requires a lot of hand work.
I've read an article that said that the rifle was considered to have poor balance (top-heavy) to be used as a battle rifle, but was ideally suited for its role as a sniper.
P14, best looking bolt action rifle imo
On a minor side note, apparently they did make a few Pedersen devices for the .30-06 version.
The Gewehr 98 would like a word with you.
Pz.Kpfw.VI Ausf.B Tiger II man that massive ugly railroad rear sight is not very aesthetic
It's not ugly :V
MrPanos2000 does that matter if it works? A good looking rifle is a nice thing, but I'd rather choose function over form.
Rifle No.4 might object as well...
Ian, thank you for the videos. My home is currently underwater from hurricane Harvey, my mother and grandmother in a shelter, and I'm barracked in a 911 operations center on a radio while we attempt rescue.
The familiarity and enjoyment I find in your videos is a comfort right now believe it or not. Even some of our officers who are off are watching with me. Thank you for what you do!
I wonder if gun jesus blesses every rifle that's auctioned off.
Only the ones that have been forgotten, for the lambs that have strayed from the flock would need guidance from their shepherd.
+5 holy damage
You really think he is overselling one of the best rifles of WW1?
"In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost Gun, Amen"
Gun Jesus- haha
I have a M1917. It was a lend-lease rifle that eventually made its way to Denmark where it got the orange "30-06" orange band and a "M53/17" range card on the stock. It's an awesome rifle.
Love my Eddystone P14 Enfield. I have the Trench bayonet for it too. Awesome rifle
Brilliant scope mount. Quick detach back in the day.
Thanks for the upload, I enjoy the knowledge
Would love to see more on sniping, great stuff
I love my era p-14. Never took a shot out further than 400 yards, but was always able to do fairly decent groups with just the iron sights and ammo I had built for it .
I love brass on guns. It just looks at home.
I think it’s been over-polished. I suspect that telescopic sight was painted black in service. The last thing a sniper wants is the sun reflecting off a shiny brass surface. 😬😂
A real piece of history, and in such fantastic condition. I want it badly.
I've really been enjoying the sniper rifles on your channel. From this, to the PSG and WA2000 and FR-1. All pretty cool.
Great video!! thank you very much!!!
Thank you Ian. Great video as always
As a Brit Army qualified marksman I am in awe of the First guy was a member if my memory serves me correctly of the 60th or 96th Rifles My memory lets me down I just remember the inspiration
Another great vid... I've attended Appleseed project shoots.. Love that you're talking MOA and how hard it is to achieve it in battle... I encourage everyone to attend an Appleseed shooting project... Lots of neat shooting info to make you a better shot. Plus some American history to go along with sharpshooting..... keep the good vids coming...
Beautiful rifle and in great condition! A true piece of art and history!
A friend of mine has a sporterized P14. Nice balance, very simple action and safety.
Very interesting and informative video's, thanks
In the United States competition, M1917 was often installed BAR rear sights so they had more adjustment.
Amazing high quality content.
I learn more from these videos than any school or college lesson Ive ever had
If you watch more u will understand more.
Happend to me so, I am not obsessed with guns.
I really like to know how something is build or how it functions.
+ there are often a cool story to tell.
Skengis Khan If Ian was my teacher in high school, I may have actually learned something.
to be fair, why would school be teaching you about guns? Or college, unless it was a specific military history/ gunsmithing course?
If Carlsberg did schools, they would be teaching you about guns:).
Probably should have paid more attention at school then. Only yourself to blame.
This is truly an amazing rifle, and I want one so badly hahaha. Love your vids man, keep up the good work :)
Dale Egberr well it's going to be at an auction in September
The Lone Wanderer as if we have a few dozen thousand dollars to spare for something that worths half that. Auctions are only for those that want something reeeeelly much
Get one. I have an m17....the American .30-06 version. Very accurate and dang near as quick to operate as the SMLE.
MrPanos2000 thank You! Your attitude allows me to buy items inexpensively at auction!
Slugger Stark, jealous, would love that rifle, or the P14. One of the reasons the P17/14 is fast vs the Mauser 98 or the Springfield 03 is the dogleg bolt knob, even though it is a magnum length action. Putting the bolt knob back means your hand moves a lot less to grab the bolt, and a lot less to reacquire the trigger, virtually eliminating two gross movements when cycling. The SMLE is very fast because of the rearward bolt handle, shorter throw, sixty degree unlocking instead of ninety. Great rifles. One of my Steyr SSGs(PIIK) has a swept back oversized bolt knob to achieve the same advantage...decades later. Definitely faster. Steyr didn't do this with my other one(P69 aka PI), took them a while to remember the lessons of WWI lol:). Stay safe.
Thank you for the info it is very interesting as a ww2 re-enactor
TGuy (about my age (68 now) about 10 years ago, brought one of these to ouir monthly collectors club meeting here in Lake Worth Florida....he said that at the time (most likely in the early 80s it almost caused a dee-vorce...he paid 10K for it...he also had the numbered can for the scope...
To help the sniper,or any soldier, with iron sighted range estimation,the front sight was engineered so that a standing man at 400 yards appeared to be the same height as the front sight blade when viewed through the rear aperture. The designers at Enfield Lock didn't miss any details when designing the P13/P14. The same sighting arrangement applies to the M1917 US .30-06 rifles,and was carried over by the British in their No4Mk1 service rifle.
The side/lateral scope mounting was, I believe, quite deliberate. The school I was at, back in the 1970/80s, was founded by ex-servicemen from WW2. I remember a teacher who took us on scout activities (he had seen service in the jungles of asia) telling us how you would squeeze forward with your rifle sideways to keep your profile as low as possible. I seem to remember him mentioning scopes laterally mounted but I can't remember any details other than remembering that it made perfect sense to do so. However, from what you are saying about effective range capabilities of optics/rifles in WW1 a low-as-possible profile would surely have to have been a necessity in flat trench warfare with nothing to hide behind.
I got a sporterized p14 handed down from a friend that passed away and man what a well built rifle and kicks like a horse. One thing he was planning on doing to this rifle was having it rechammbered in 338 lupla
I had one of these. It was by Remington and had been sporterized and had a modern scope.
I have a M1 Garand that I have a non permanent side mount scope on it and have shot it out to 750 yards and have found that the offset doesn't affect that POI to any noticeable degree. Using a 12x50 Simmons I have found that with a 200 yard zero, at 750 yards that offset causes the POI to be less than 2 moa shift. I did notice a much bigger change using a 100 yard zero to the tune of around 4 to 5 moa.
I have a Husqvarna in 9.3x57 Mauser with an offset scope. I did exactly what many British soldiers did. I zeroed the scope with a couple inches of offset so that the windage would always remain the same at any distance.
Your videos are awesome
Original left-mounted scopes for the SMLE are rare, as the mounting tended to be thrown away post-WW1 when armourers salvaged the scope for Army stores. I was offered a well provenanced Mk 3 SMLE with such a scope, back in 2012 for £3500, a silly price then, but a missed investment as I've recently seen examples in the UK changing hands for around £8000.
I have owned two P14s... they were both accurate to about 1.5 MoA with decent handloads. Both of them liked the Hornady 150gr spire point in front of about 47gr of BL-C2 powder giving a bit over 2700fps. Deadly on deer sized targets.... Wish I still had them!...
I reckon you would get tighter grouping if you measured your chamber... only draw back bullet heads might not be seated deep enough to fit in the mag... thats assuming you didn’t already do that.. would be a very interesting rifle to load for.. big respect to you.
The P14 Enfields and the P17's [in .30-06] are considered by many gun gurus to be the best bolt action rifles fielded in World War I. They are actually a product improved M98 Mauser. The aperature rear sight makes them more accurate then the SMLE, the 98 Mauser, or the 03 Springfield. Also another advantage they had was that you didn't have to forge the bolt handle downward when converting it to a sniper rifle with a 12 o'clock scope mount as you do with a Mauser or Springfield.
Hi Ian, I live in Krugersdorp in South Africa and inherited a P14, not the sniper edition, from my late father. My late father was in business in a little town in the Western Transvaal named Sannieshof just after the WW2. A guy owed my father some money, which he could not pay and instead gave him the P14 in lieu of payment. Unfortunately, at the time there was a "movement" to make military rifles "sporting" by removing some of the original wood and other funny feeble gunsmithing attempts. Unfortunately this P14 was subjected to, luckily only removal of some wood and a sissy pad added on the stock. I did some research and found it was manufactured by Winchester as the serial number on the rifle starts with a W. It was interesting however to have noted no British markings on this rifle, but clearly stamped by the manufacturer on 2 places ( as far as I can remember as it is in the gun safe and I do not want to take it out now) the following: NOT ENGLISH MAKE. I have found that very strange. It would have been logical that it should be British surplus, as we were a British colony at the time of WW1 and WW2. I have tried to contact Winchester Rifle Coy several times, but have had no success. I would appreciate it if you have the knowledge to advise me the reason for the stamps, but really do not expect you to go out of your way to find out, if you do not know offhand. My son shot his first Warthog at 92 metres in 2006 with the open sight P14.. He was 16 at the time. The rifle still renders very accurate shooting. Love your channel and thanks.
It may have been an American production, post WWI. If it's a 30-06, that's definitely the American run. Up near the front site there should be a W and a MM-YY stamped. That'll help you figure exactly where and when it was made. But mainly the caliber will barrow it down tremendously
@@tripoliwarrior3238 It is a. 303 and furter investigations revealed it is a late WW 1 rifle.
Ian might like a trip to the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House Museum when next visiting The Royal Armoury in Leeds. Also we have the Webley & Scott Factory on the border with West Bromwich . But not certain if it has a museum attached.
Hello Ian, this is an old video, so im not sure youll see this, but I love your videos and your mission. whenever i get a new rifle, I check to see if youve done a video in it. I recently came into, you guessed it, a 1917. Its very interesting as ive never seen the quick detach scope it has on it, made by Oigee, Berlin. At any rate, Ive never had one in my hands before, and I was hoping, maybe, even though I will have sorted it out, and youre busy Im sure, you could possibly follow up with a 1917 complete disassembly? Its my favorite part of every video, and Im always impressed with some of the firearms youve figured out how to break down on your own. Thank you for your dedication.
Very cool!
this channel needs to be renamed to" this is why I'm broke."
For me: 'Reasons you live on the wrong side of the pond'
If you look after them, they are a good investment - If you can -part with them when you need the coin. I look at some of the rifles I have owned, what I paid for them, and what they would be worth now if I still owned them and it depresses the hell out of me that I don't own them any more. You might be broke now but your rifles could be the best investment you ever make.
It's more like "this is how I spent my lottery winnings" assuming I first played the lottery and second won a substantial sum of money.
Tyler Gordon so very true, me too
Tyler Gordon no
I own a Periscope Prism SMLE with the standard offset PPCo mount.
As soon as you pick up the rifle and start using it, it is immediately apparent why the scope is offset - and it has absolutely nothing (IMHO) to do with charger loading.
The problem with all of the scopes available in WW1 - German as well as Allied - is that the scopes have an extremely narrow field of view. In practice, what this means is that it is very hard to seek and acquire targets using the scope itself. In the WW1 sniping environment, they usually describe only having a split second to aim and take a shot. Even if you can see the target with the naked eye, it is difficult to switch to the narrow FOV in the scope.
If you shoot on a military range with military targets - e.g. British No14 "Huns' Heads", against a sandy backdrop - you can see just how hard it is to acquire the target using the scope alone, especially if the targets appear at random locations.
With an offset scope such as the PPCo No1, the scope is positioned parallel to and "eyes width" away from the iron sights. Thus what you can do is use the right eye and iron sights to come up on target as with a normal snap shot, and then switch focus to the left eye to take the shot through the scope. In practice, this is a very, very, fast and accurate method of snap-sniping.
To add credence to this view, its worth remembering that No3(T)s with offset scopes in Alex Martin mounts were being ordered by the War Office as late as 1938: thus there had to be a valid operational reason why these rifles were desired in preference to the standard over-bore No3(T).
I would agree with Ian. This was the best sniper rifle of WW1 and kudos to the Brits who learned quickly.
Britain have quite usually been paving the way in regards to sniping: first wide spread issue of rifles, training in skirmishing and sharp shooting, general sniping standards etc.
Interesting comment about the British introducing the two man teams. Billy Sing who was called the sniper of Gallipoli usually was part of a two man team.
Thanks, Ian, for another interesting video. Keep it up!
If I may add. It's correct a left-of-axis scope mount was disliked by snipers as awkward for shooting out of vertical loopholes.
- A left scope mount would however not have posed a practical sighting-in problem on a left-hand twist rifle like a .303 SMLE. After the first 100yds .303 bullets would deviate left by 1" every 100yds. By 300yds, a 2" left deviation neatly converges with the offset scope's lateral axis.
- Fast, sustained, aimed fire was part of the sniper's job description, e.g. suppressing enemy machinegun posts during advances, so hanging on to stripper clip use was a responsible tactic.
A big question lingers: why did someone not just redesign (or simply left tilt) the loophole steel plates?
I would expect that the loophole plates were concreted in place.
I'll take 2, please. Ian is a international treasure. 🍀
After Dunkirk, America shipped England a bunch of Pattern 17s (the 30-06 version of the pattern 14). They were used mostly in the "Home Guard" and had a red band painted around the stock so as to reduce the likelihood that someone would try to load .303 into them. I see these occasionally at gun shows.
Alvin York actually used a p17 (and 1911) in spite of Gary Cooper using a 1903 Springfield in the movie.
I once talked to a guy that said he used a P17 as a sniper rifle in Korea. He said it was "A very good rifle out to 1000 yds."
Good quality Pattern 17's in original military configuration (somewhat) hard to come by. The receiver was one of the strongest ever built, and a lot of them were cut up to make heavy caliber custom rifles when you could buy them for $10 ea.
WOW!!! A M1917 rifle still being used during the Korean War! I am impressed. I would have thought they would have all been surplused to the civilian market or disposed of by World War II lend lease. I had a 1917, and I thought it was a fine rifle. I felt that the 17 was sturdier than the 03.
My first full-bore rifle was a Winchester made P14, re-barreled for 7.62mm Nato with aperture sights and it was reasonably accurate up to 1000 yards, but I replaced it with a Lee-Enfield No.4 and I found that much better, but it is all down to the user's preference. I was disappointed with the weakness of the P14 extractor spring
Basically the rifle you see in "Dad's Army". It was issued to the Home Guard issued in both .303 and .0-06 calibres . I believe the latter had red bands painted on the butts to identify that they did not fire standard British standard ammunition.
very interesting to watch i got a P 14 which i use for hunting in very good shape
That scope looks so much like the Hensoldt Weltzar dialyt 3x!
This and a WWI German sniper rifle are my dream guns.
You mentioned the Bannerman, family and I was curious if you may do a video on them and the castle in upstate NY. I grew up in that area and know some of the stories as well as the famous fire and explosion of his armory. I would love to know more.
Very Cool!
"You just have a really close view of the metal in front of you" that made me laugh more than it should
Ian, thanks for the video!
Any further info on those books by British snipers?
I'm totally biased towards the Mauser rifles, but the P14 is a fine piece of WWI tech.
I just picked up a Winchester model of 1917 sporter for $25 cant wait to finish my build with it
Kinda makes you wonder, some of the best snipers in the world made excellent kills with 2-3 MOA rifles. MOdern PSR shooters get upset when their 5000 dollar + rifle doesn't shoot sub .75 MOA inch groups. I bought my rifle from a guy who was not happy with his .6 MOA groups he was getting with tight handloads. I told him that he is right but I am concerned about it also so ill offer you half of what you paid. lol
It probably never occurred to him HE was the problem xD
No amount of money can buy skill.
probably because most of their kills were made within 200 yards
2-3 moa becomes a problem at extreme ranges, if your shooting 3 moa at 100 then at a mile your really bracket firing
@@IPusers most people don't have targets to hit 1 mile or more out.
i bought one of these in Australia in 1981 for $80,they used a 303 cartridge
shane moore them jungle carbines and Swedish mausers couldn’t give them away lol
Beatifull!!!
I have owned two P14s...both shot to about 1.5 MoA with good ammo. Wish I still have the second one which was in full military trim...
Very nice rifle. The scope mount looks solid and repeatable. With the 2 claws etc, it should return to zero. I can see why this would be preferred over left mounted scopes. I love my US M1917 with a very low serial number. It's a great rifle with better iron sights than anything else of the period. I haven't shot it much, but i have shot it enough to know how good it is. Sounds like the British made very good decisions in how to "kit out" these rifles. 1.5 MOA was pretty darn good back then. An exceptional iron sighted service rifle back then would give 2-3 MOA on average, with a very rare one (usually an M1903) doing a little better. Great video as always. Thank you
Troy Ortega I love my M17 as well!
It's funny, if the M1917 had the same fine-adjustment rear sight as this sniper model of the Pattern 14, it might well have replaced the M1903 as the standard-issue rifle. The fact that it lacked such fine adjustments was something that the brass thought was important, since they seemed to not grasp that war is not the same as shooting competitions. We probably also would've ended up with 6-round stripper clips being made had that been the case, since there's room for a 6th round in the 1917's mag.
Interestingly to me anyway, the character Charlie in this summer's Wonder Woman movie carried a M1917 (after watching this it may have been a P1914) sniper rifle. At the time I thought it was neat his character had a M1917 so hearing Ian with the rest of the story was pretty cool.
The P-14 sniper was the standard Australian issue sniper rifle well into WW2. They were most notably used in the bitter"guerilla" operations against the Japanese in Timor.
The weak link in the system was the Patt 18 scope. This is a "lift" of a German design from before WW1. As can be seen, the scope had to be disassembled to be fitted with the rings. No dry nitrogen or other such Gucci features there.
The problem with the P-14 in active service in WW2, was that NOBODY had made spare parts (especially interchangeable spares) for the P-14 since early 1917.
Towards the end of WW2, Oz went on to sort-of adopt a No1 Mk 3-based sniper rig , still mounting the dreadful Patt 18 optic in yet another couple of variations of the German-style mounting system seen on the P-14.
In a wonderfully bizarre and somewhat dismaying twist, the Australian No1 Mk 3 (T) units were STILL the (limited) issue sniper kit right through the 1960s and into the 1970's. The latest official repair and maintenance documentation I have seen for them is dated 1976. in 1979, the Parker Hale M-82 was introduced. This was essentially the same rifle adopted by Canada as the C2 sniper. A least it was finally a rifle that used 7.62 NATO ammunition and had the optically and mechanically excellent Kahles ZF69 on top.
Anyone interested in British sniping in WW1 should read "Sniping in France"| by Major Hesketh-Pritchard DSO MC. He started the concept of training schools or British soldiers in WW1and his book is still required reading for all arms of the British arm forces sniper candidates.
Gosh! That's a fine looking gun!
Salokin Sekwah very nice to shoot too. alot smoother and because a little heavier than a smle alot more gentle
Ian has been selling blood regularly to buy this after he first saw it. I wonder if they blackened the brass in the field? Then again back then I can see some officer making him shine it every time he got back.
on the no. 8 rifle that brass disk on the stock is used to signify a barrel bulge, i have a feeling this will carry over to this rifle, it would be interesting to see down the bore to confirm.
Nice mount
Ian, I would love to see a dedicated video on a no. 4 mk. 1(t) if you happen to find one.
nice looking rifle.
I second Ian's opinion on it being the best Sniper rifle of the war.
Whoa~~~COOL!
I love my P14 sporter and it's shockingly accurate. It's an Eddystone, so the reputation isn't that good, but fuck, it laces its shots into one hole. The guy I bought it from was using it as a varmint rifle with irons, and using it to hit richardson's ground squirrels in open prairie. Color me impressed.
Francis Pegahmagabow used a Ross, which just goes to show that it takes more than a great rifle to make a great sniper. I wonder if he ever got his hands on one of these bad boys
I bought two P-14's back in the 90's. Both are Winchesters one in 303 British the other in 30-06. The 303 rifle has it's scope, the other does not, I'm still looking for one with it claw mounts, the bases are on the rifle. They are excellent rifles and they were cheap back then, I gave $70 for each of them
Lol what a time to be alive I saw someone say this one sold for 10k at auction
Hmm ..... I had a 1917 in 30-06 that was set up as a match rifle by some unknown gun smith with that same rear sight. Used it for two years in DCM competition back in the late 80s. As much as I wish I still had those guns but even more so I wish I had the eye sight I had back then.
In Britain post WW2 it was the favored rifle for modification to target shooting, and rebarreling to 7.62 when it was adopted, with vernier sights it was a great rifle.
Interesting that this had a scope with 3 X magnification for ww1 and in ww2 the mosin nagant had the pe scope with the same magnicication but still achieved good results in the hands of people like Lyudmila Pavlichenko
I love your stuff but I wish you would discuss and show the diff cartridges that were used in these military variants. ya I know this is years old