The Win and In Podcast #3: The State of the CEDH Format with FreedomWaffle
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- Опубліковано 13 гру 2024
- #cedh #magicthegathering #commander
CEDH RC Member FreedomWaffle joins Max P for the State of the CEDH Format. They explore the recent developments in CEDH governance, the diversity and health of the meta, tournament logistics, and the impact of proxy use. Hear insights on the challenges of ensuring competitive balance, fostering a welcoming community, and promoting positive player experiences. Don’t miss this deep dive into the current and future landscape of competitive EDH!
CEDH RC Website:
www.cedhrc.com/
CEDH RC Discord:
/ discord
Win and In on Spotify:
open.spotify.c...
Win and In Discord:
/ discord
Max P on X/Twitter:
/ thepfef
00:14 Introduction and Special Guest Announcement
00:56 Overview of EDH and CEDH Governance
02:45 Formation of New CEDH Rules Committee
03:49 Discussion on Deck Diversity in CEDH
08:42 Tournament Logistics and Challenges
13:04 Issues with Draw Meta and Forced Draws
20:37 Debating Tournament Structures
23:02 Community Input and Experimentation
26:05 Fostering a Welcoming Environment
28:33 The Proxy Debate
32:39 Balancing Skill and Variance
35:56 Concluding Thoughts and Farewell
This is by far my favorite new podcast.
There's not a problem in CEDH, we're good. Leave it alone 😂
Max hinted on this @16:55 about cards like rhystic potentially being banned, making it hard to win from free interaction. This is less of a problem imo and really at it's core what makes cedh...cedh. Cards like rhystic enable these big colaborative interactions on the stack that you literally never see in other formats, something almost uniquely CEDH -WIZARD BATTLES.
@johnmark3977 personally I'm ok with CEDH being just really hard to win and draws being somewhat common. Like soccer, where the higher the level of play, the more rare scoring gets. That just raises the value of the wins you do manage to achieve. But I'm just one guy... many others disagree with me.
Draws are WACK play to win , loose with honor. A table colluding to draw is cowardly @WinandInCEDH
Slow " tough"matches play casual high power
I don't play blue and have won plenty through a rhystic. I don't see rhystic as the problem that needs to be banned. Especially if you are unbanning Leovold.
In my local area, we tested the cut to top 10 idea. We only had 20 players, but that buy to finals made people want to play. We found that for 64 or fewer people, it is great for the cut to top 10 cut.
I was at a 28 person that max was at with a top 10. I 0-4’d not sure who won but max clenched the bye before I droped. Top 10 is good for small tournaments but not for bigger ones
For me, the RC's stance on cedh is ideal. What jim said in his tweet, is exactly what i want to hear. I want minimal to nonexistent oversight for the format, ideally it never rotates. For me, i love cedh because i can build one deck. Bling it out. And just absolutely dig into it. Work on mastering every tiny corner case over a decade and never have to worry that my grixis pile is going to lose a major piece. For me, and the play group im in, that is fun. We have fun doing that and i dont want a cedh rc and dont want to see one develop. I am happy with how things are.
That said, i do think there is space to better manage the tourney scene and namely, how seat order works since yes, fourth seat is brutal. I dont think that needs a full, formal, cedh rc, just TOs
Yeah of course you don't care cause you're not competitive past your local pod. Why weigh in your opinion when you can rule 0 anything you need. Your comment is so devoid of care for the actual cedh format health. Of course you don't care cause you're removed from it. Really useless comment in my opinion
@@awesomezaka welp, id argue with you but no need--looks like the message made it loud and clear to the organization, now formally called, the cedh rc.
@dan_hahn ??? Nobody wanted topdeck to be an RC, it doesn't mean no one wants changes for the health of the format. My comment was directly pointed at your comment that you don't want to see an RC. Cause the health of the format is irrelevant to you lol. I dunno if you're being intentionally obtuse or not
Can this be a monthly video series checking in with waffle?(:
There’s been a lot of discussions on this topic this past week or so and this is easily the most insightful. Love the show!
Great show, really getting into the weeds of tournament cEDH. Also pleasantly surprised seeing my name scrolling across the bottom of the screen in the tournament recap! Nice feature!
@NybarMTG figured that would be a fun way to keep up with the Tournaments and people topping events. Glad you like it!
I agree. Biggest issue in cEDH is turn disparity, not banning/unbanning specific cards. I've only been to three tourneys, but my last one went 2nd seat, 4th seat, 3rd seat, 4th seat, 4th seat.
I'm bad so I probably wouldn't have won anyways but having such crappy turn order did not help 😂
Evan is such an awesome dude!
@@NickNicolay-ih4zi FreedomWaffle is the best waffle.
I can see a future where you guys sort all this out, and the community will be forever grateful.
I can also see, once you have done all the hard work, WoTC and LaPage coming in and taking all that hard work away from you and creating their own 'official' Cedh rules committee.
If this happens, I'll be getting the pitchfork out 🍻
I think a lot of people misinterpret what cedh is as a whole though. In my experience, it is more consistency, than it is a sped up way to play commander.
I like the idea of draws being worth something, but resulting from the state of the game arriving to a particular point, rather than decided at the outset. Drawing because we reach the time limit in the round or because the table finds themselves in a loaded gun situation is one thing, but ID'ing without attempting to play a match does feel a little cheap. Maybe a rule dictating when tables are even allowed to draw within round is a solution? Like compelling tables to play a minimum amount time within a round incentivizes people to physically play the game, and if someone is in a position where drawing is no longer optimum because they are ahead in the round, then the incentive becomes lower to ID at all, but if everyone finds themselves pointing win cons at each other after some minimum amount of time has passed, then the table can elect to ID.
Sometimes people just ID early to go get something to eat or leave earlier at end of day 1, which is valid considering how grueling the whole tourney run is. ID’ing if convenient and then get to stretch your legs, hit the vendors, etc earlier is a godsend.
@@impendio that's fair, but that's an issue in tournament structure/design. Like having a 30 minute break between the middle rounds would go a long way in alleviating that as logistically tough as that may be
Just bringing in some heat for episode 3, keep it up man!
Awesome pod, keep it up!
@@SpitePlays thanks Jesse!
I think, to disincentivize draws, an easy step is to tier prize support for top 8 vs. top 16. Take some prize pool from 9-16 and put towards 5-8 or something along those lines. Easier to get into top 16 with multiple draws than top 8
This is going to be good!
Thank you for the content
Do you think having the first player in SO draw their card for turn at the end of the turn instead of at the beginning? Just for the first turn then after that they draw normally, maybe help the players in the later seats.
Take the top 10 method for every 64 players guarantee seat 1&2 into last 2 pods as well as working way down scaling ?
Hi moose!
i hope this works out also i hope we get more web turnies for the people who can't travel around the country because the west coast has the smallest cedh turny scene also as a Ufarm player i dont want to see study go lol
When’s the next Colors are a Crutch episode dropping?
Brother. You might be waiting a long time
I've been saying it needs to be split for over a year.
And he we are.
The issue I see was the pre announcement buyout was shady af
Turn order: Players turn order determines how many free mulligans you get
Here’s my take on a fix for the buy problem. It will also make stats easier to follow and grock..
Cut to top 4 not 16.
Some events aren’t even 50 players and they play 4 rounds of Swiss. Then most of the result rests on just two more games (not sure I’m explaining well. Sorry.).
Have players play for the top 4 not the top 16 and use records to determine seating and that’s that. Problem solved. Why do we need a top 16?
Let’s play all our Swiss rounds to get the finalists. So your Swiss rounds mean a lot. They make you a finalist or not.
Your seating for the finals will mean a LOT right? Not 16 players making it to 4 pods.. if you earn that first seat it’s a VERY big deal.
I think this is the only way to solve the problem and I don’t see why this isn’t standard protocol.
🤷♂️
Thoughts?
Definitely worst games I’ve been in are when I need a win and in, while my opponents just need a draw, so they gang up on me. Makes me wish the software would have instead paired me up with a pod of people that also needed a win
Forcing a draw is scummy no way you try and put it.
no ban rhystic study..
The timing.
Unrelated anyone wanna buy a leovold?? 👉👈😁
Evan seems to have a really good head on his shoulders, thinks very well, and I’m happy to have him on the cEDH RC
Draw situation: Provide incentives where every player always gains an advantage if they win.
What if draw that actually go to time and are a true draw are worth a point but a ID is 0 points
26:50 unless you happen to play Tayam, in which case Max will bust out the exaggerated sighs, the unfair criticism and the pre-game politics
@Naren25 have we played together? I play against Tayam all the time. If you've had that experience with me I want to know about it.
Hey Max, you'll likely not even remember me, we played in a round one of Mox Masters last year, and we lost to Tevesh Kraum having only taken two turns between us, so it was a very short interaction! As soon as I revealed my commander it was really clear you weren't happy to be playing against my deck - but honestly, it's possible you were grumpy about being stuck in seat 4! I reviewed my recording, but I missed the very start so can't tell you exactly what you said about Tayam - I recall it wasn't positive, though.
It was actually my first ever game in a tournament, but I've gone on to play more tournaments since, so it hasn't put me off! I actually started watching your podcast after learning you were a UA-camr and even named my deck Abzan Trashcan in honour of the famous rant from "the other Max"
In short, no harm done! Was more surprised than offended, so it's all good 👍
@Naren25 ok fair enough. My disdain for Tayam is really more of a meme at this point. But point taken, i have to admit I sometimes get too whiney about stax in general. I will try to work on that. Back then, though, you're right about the pre-game politics. Tayam had so much brewers advantage my strategy was to try to mitigate that by trying to inform the table about how Tayam works. Hope we get a chance to play a real game at some point. Thanks for watching!
Yeah, that's fair. A guy I play locally does the same thing (to the extent of even being able to correctly guess what I've kept in any given hand, based on pod composition), and we maintain a friendly rivalry!
0 point draw would maybe need to go round robin still to prevent the issue. but it adds extra time and not time feasable... old mull rules, draw 7, then draw 6 no draw 7 put 1/2 back will slow us down too, new mull favors speed and the knowledge. hard to do things with player 4, like extra card or something is maybe an answer, but who knows. Proxy friendly is why im never buying a mtg card anymore lol. ready to throw that card cash into bitcoin after this crash!.
No more colors are a crutch?
im of the opinion that banlist decisions should not be made with tedh in mind. tournaments will always see homogenized decks. the best is the best and people will play that. im not sure its a problem at all. it is human nature to flock to the best decks, that is unavoidable.
@alanschellenberger9356 this is something Waffle clearly seemed to agree with you on. They want whatever changes happen to be beneficial to ALL of CEDH not just tournaments.
@@WinandInCEDH and i really appreciated hearing that coming from a member of the new rc!
@@WinandInCEDH what if seat 1 goes first, seat 2 and 3 each draw one card like normal, and seat 4 gets to scry 1 and draw? or is that too much
I kinda like it.
It is one of the most annoyingly rng based format. Hur dur throw strong cards and pray that no one has anymore answers.
Just take it away from EDH
Other max really fucked this max
I consume cEDH like it's food. I'm a new player (to the format, been playing mtg for a long time). A shakeup would be welcomed from a spectator's point of view. That point of view is also important for the growth of the format.
A seat order revamp could def be used.
Please no bans tho.
Start by basically unbanning everything that is not some Ante bullshit or power 9 . Give the format a tabula rasa start.
The fact that cards like Primeval Titan or Braids are banned is a fucking joke.
Unban d moxen
Ban Rog.
Ban Tymna.
Ban partners
I don’t think tymna is an issue. Rog maybe.
@@brendans1983 Preach brother.
To fix the issue of Player 1 having the best chance to win... make it where player 1 doesnt draw on their 1st turn
Then p2 is the new p1 and the cycle continues
@@impendio but then P1 can stop P2 from T1 winning or something along these lines
p1 draws at EOT?
@JpDubbed doesnt seem the worst. Atleast worth playtesting it and runnign stats