TOXIC TRADITIONALISM: A Survivor's Story
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- A cradle Catholic who moved through various Traditionalist groups throughout his life, a man - now in the evening of life - shares his story of how the SSPX destroyed his family, offers hope for victims of sexual abuse, and insight into the dangers and pitfalls of Traditionalism.
Please say a prayer for our guest, Kurt! He is willing and able to help abuse victims who need counsel or encouragement. Please reach out to me at the email address on my channel's "About" page so I can connect you.
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I went to a Byzantine church for 2 years. It was a great experience. Most of the Catholics there were Latin rites Catholics from NO parishes. We had a great experience. Sad to here your guest had a terrible experience.
Both priest we had there were married and raised in the new mass before switching rites.
I do love the married priesthood. I found the married priest to be more available then the celibate priest.
Wow, who thinks being a gay teen means you want to be raped??!!
I noticed the same thing about the music in both the SSPX and the FSSP. This past Easter morning there was NO music and a rapidly said low Mass (FSSP). I do feel I’m in a strange gloomy dungeon. Not sure I’ll stay there.
@@eremiasranwolf3513 Same here
So if attrition really is 80% in the SSPX that would mean they are little to no better than the rest of the Church at retention. That's quite quite a devastating blew since the whole reason for existence is the belief that the Church is falling because of the New Mass and the big three issues of Ecumenism, Religious Liberty, and Collegiality aren't the sources of all woe in Church and State.
I can weigh in on those statistics. All kids in one family were raised mostly in an SSPX parish and school, with a couple of interludes at our Novus Ordo parish. The oldest 2 have remained Catholic and are raising big families in one of our diocesan TLMs and will not attend SSPX in the same town. One will attend NO masses, the other will miss Mass when they are available, while traveling! That has caused tension between the siblings if children from the first are vacationing with the other!
Then there are the younger kids. 4 have left the Faith, most living with someone leading to later marriage for 2 that ended in divorce, one a lesbian, children out of wedlock and the youngest turns up at some feast day masses like Christmas, in my experience. Their dad blames the time at the NO! The same Masses where we raised all 7 of our kids!
Not to say kids at our parish do not leave the church, but all 7 of ours have stayed, married good Catholics and are raising Catholic kids. All 28 of our grandkids are staying Catholic so far. Oldest is 22! The NO is not what is completely responsible for making kids go astray! I am not sure what happened right for us, we are nothing special; God's grace primarily, I'm sure. I just shared this to say you can end up with good Catholic kids in a reverent, truly Catholic NO parish! 2 of our 4 priests here say the TLM as well, plus a Novus Ordo Latin Mass. One priest is an Episcopalian, very Catholic convert, that is married! The choir we sing in has a great director that always liberally includes Latin Mass parts and Polyphony. We also get to sing many traditional hymns and some modern pieces, having made it a very balanced experience for our family! I hope this can encourage someone!
Thank you for that, Leslie!!
@@mrshappycatholic You are most welcome! Thank you for alll you are doing! I really appreciate it!
If I was smarter back then I would've left my NO parish because of the toxic people. I learned that the people aren't the entirety of the church but it matters. Frankly I find the TLM much more suited to me and I love ad orientum. But yes some "trads" are larpers and hardly traditional.
Thank you Laura! Eye opening. I see that my diocesan TLM could eventually cause division in my parish. After seeing all of this unhealthy , unholy behavior in the SSPX, I worry for the church communities that are bringing the TLM into their diocese . I can see it a mile away. The Church is alive and full of so many good and holy devotions and people. I will pray for Kurt! God bless you. This is a great YT channel😇
Thank you, Christine! It's sad to say, but I agree with Kurt that in charity and good conscience I could not now recommend anyone to get involved with 1962 Missal Masses/communities. Since that is gradually being suppressed by the Church, to encourage someone to form an attachment to it at this point only creates opportunities for their trust in the Church to be further tried by resentment or becoming entangled in their own preferences or judgments about which form is better, etc. It's a schism in the make, no matter how much "in the Church" people say they are right now.
In our diocese, after the bishop removed the 1962, we saw more good fruit than bad, but there was a vociferous and violent outcry from some people against him, and a campaign to "lobby it back in". A priest friend of mine from the chancery said, "The Trads certainly showed their true colors once their idol was taken away." Their treatment of the bishop was very hurtful and disappointing, but showed what attitudes lay most prevalent beneath the surface.
This attitude of liturgical consumerism that Trads often develop is very harmful to the family nature of the Church. If you're interested, I really recommend listening to my interview with Father Gilbaugh where he talks about this and some other fascinating things regarding the reform of the rite (we'll finish up with part 2 this tuesday): ua-cam.com/video/Hu0PxixldFg/v-deo.html
As always, thank you for your comments!
@@mrshappycatholic Thank you, yes I listened to it and will welcome part 2. I agree with you and hope my family will use this time at the diocesean TLM to slowly transition back into a united liturgy. I pray that all in authority take a firm stand. Our Bishop is working closely with the local SSPX and I'm sorry to say just fanning their arrogant egotistical flame. Christ have mercy on us all.❤🩹
Yes, there seems to be that "We are better than you!" attitude at all the TLMs we have attended. I had not thought of that happening across the board.
@@mrshappycatholic You do realise you are being complicit to the persecution of other Catholics I figured I'd warn you now, this will be something you'll have to answer for in your particular judgment
as a former sede, I understand these stories completely
I think what you bring up near the 1:43:00 marker is something many people who currently attend the TLM would be fine with, that is, "tradding up" the Novus Ordo Mass, for a lack of better terms (ad orientem, Latin, etc. in the OF Mass). However, I do think a valid concern some TLM attendees have, at least in my experience, is that there are also a lot of bishops who make it clear Ad Orientem is prohibited in their diocese for the TLM, amongst other more traditional practices (that's probably the main reason why I currently attend the TLM, that and the priest is phenomenal and it's convenient for me based on time and location). I think, then, this makes trads in those dioceses more concerned about Traditiones Custodes. Like, honestly, I'd probably be the happiest in an Ordinariate community or a community where the NO Mass is offered like what you see on EWTN, for the most part. However, Masses like those are few and far between, hence why I feel a lot get drawn into the TLM (plus the fact that in the pandemic, many dioceses forced Communion in the hand, which is probably what also drove a lot to the TLM). If we could just have a super-reverent Novus Ordo liturgy be the norm, I could honestly be fine without the TLM. Hopefully, we can see a trend in the next few decades of bringing back more traditional practices within the Novus Ordo rather than having this TLM/NO segregation we see today.
Your view that you would be fine without TLM I can honestly not understand . The TLM is not some ideology or belief system. It is the mass of all ages and will not go away.
21:42 I've been listening to a lot of sspx resistance sermons lately and yes they are almost always 1 hour long and always talk about rejecting Vatican 2
God bless Kurt.
You seem like a decent woman. I appreciate you having this man speak on your show. It reflects integrity and courage to confront the bad that occurs within the Catholic Church.
I am a convert to Orthodox Christianity and experienced narcissistic abuse at my previous parish. The consequences of spiritual abuse can be catastrophic.
Thank you for your comment, Mark! I'm truly sorry for what you've been through. The Church is full of sinners and we hurt each other so terribly sometimes. Thank goodness God is bigger than our mistakes and still helps us find our way to Him. I'm praying for you! :D
Communion kneeling was instituted after standing, but it was in order to underscore proper reverence. There is something to be said for that!!!
Hey Laura,
When I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy I had previously been a traditional Catholic. I had converted to that from atheism, and before I was atheist from Lutheranism. Is there a way I could get in contact with you? Maybe you could help me.
Hi Mark! I'd love to do whatever I can for you!! We also have a great community over at TradRecovery.com I encourage you to acquaint yourself with (we're doing monthly video conferences, and there's a forum for questions and discussion, and a resources page, lots of good stuff)! :D my email address is in the video description above (and on most of my other videos as well). Sometimes when I put it in a comment UA-cam deletes it :{
Looking forward to hearing from you! :D
Much of what Kurt has said here is certainly disturbing and shocking. I think I've seen some of his comments on Logos Project videos. I would be interested in hearing more of what he has to say about Cardinal Burke and Bishop Schneider. Laura, I would highly recommend maybe interviewing Roman Krasnitsky of the Archangel Foundation (or anyone from that group) about the abuse crisis. Last time I heard, Roman is a practicing Catholic and his foundation does work helping abuse survivors through different means (legal, media outreach, etc).
I am no supporter of the SSPX, but the claim that they have an 80% attrition rate would have to be substantiated.
Well, my friend, you're welcome to do some research yourself; Kurt already has. I would start with the staff of their schools and ask how many of the graduates still practice their faith. Another ex-SSPXer I know who has done so found the exact same statistic to be true. Kurt is hoping people will investigate his claims, because they will find he is telling the truth about the way things are. So please go right ahead! :D
@@mrshappycatholic Those making the claim provide the evidence. "Another ex-SSPXer I know who has done so found the exact same statistic to be true." Where can I find this?
@@littlerock5256 What I'm referring was from a private conversation I had with that individual, but I told you that they interviewed the staff of SSPX schools and the number they were given was that at least 80% of the students that graduated from those schools in most cases completely left any practice of Catholicism, or defected to Protestantism. I think it's lazy not to do your own investigating to corroborate this now that you've even been told where exactly to start looking.
@Credo in Unum Deum It's not a wash. It's an extreme departure. Another example is that the SSPX has ordained 1400 priests, and has less than 700 still serving. The burnout on their priests is incredible, and that's not incidental.
@@mrshappycatholic My family and I spent 5 years attending the SSPX, with a child in one of their high schools for 3 years, and we did not see anything near an 80% attrition rate. That was 10 years ago now, maybe things have changed, and, of course, we ourselves left the SSPX. Even if the attrition rate is higher now, it is more than being offset by the influx. This is a common comment one can find, and is corroborated by the growth in the SSPX that I know is going on in my state:
"Concerning the recent growth of the SSPX, the chapel where I attend just added 2 more mass times and is planning to expand the chapel now b/c the diocese where it is located and the diocese next door recently restricted their diocesan parish TLMs and there are no FSSP or ICKSP within 2 hours or more driving time for many in these areas. Most of these people are not returning to the N.O."
With the anticipated further restrictions to the 1962 missal it is fully expected that this departure to the SSPX will continue, and people freely say it. As their numbers swell, the SSPX will find themselves in need of more bishops and back where they were in 1988.
Lord have mercy!