Understanding The Magic of Middle Earth
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2022
- In this video, I give the broadest explanation of how the magical system within Tolkien's world works. Unlike Harry Potter and other worlds where there are simply words of power, the magic of middle earth relies on deistic commands like gods in religion. The main example used is the fight Between Gandalf and the Balrog, specifically Gandalf saying, "You shall not pass!"
I absolutely love talking about Tolkien, Middle Earth, The Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings, and all that good stuff, so if you enjoy the video, please give it a like and a subscribe! There will be a video on Amazon's Rings of Power soon.
The particular musical arrangement in the video is a makeup of tunes written by Howard Shore and can be found at the below link. The clips that I used were all scenes from Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings Trilogy.
Music:
• Lord of the Rings | Mi...
A quick clarification about my word choice here. I’ve noticed a lot of comments correctly saying that the Maiar and the Valar are more akin to angels than gods. This is certainly true, especially for the Maiar, and I appreciate the feedback! However, I chose to say “gods” in an effort to keep the video simple for those not as familiar with the lore. My argument of deistic power and authority works just as well by referring to them as angels, but the term “gods” makes it a bit easier to understand for the average viewer who has not read The Silmarillion.
Also, the magic is somewhat different for the Children of Iluvatar, the elves, men, and dwarves. It is my opinion that their magic is still based on authority, but rather than being deistic decrees, it is more rooted in the residual enchantment from their awakening. This explains the occasional use of the word “spell.” Honestly, this concept warrants its own video, so I’ll not describe it in too much detail here. Keep an eye out for it though, and I think it will plug some of the counterarguments that I am seeing.
Finally, thank you all for the fun discussions here. I absolutely love it. I’m seeing some really interesting examples that pop up!
I like this idea, but I think it's incomplete without a discussion about the relationship magic has to "conservation of energy." We read that Melkor became smaller as a consequence of pouring his magic into the earth itself, making it corrupt. It could be that he also used his authority to 'decree' how the world is to be, and so it became -- but as a result he also himself poured his magic (which was in the form of 'potential') into... actuality. Magic materializes into actuality when a 'decree' is made, so that the valar/maiar make a part of their soul into the words and decrees they make. And this is because they cannot make something from nothing, so they must use themselves.
This also explains why magic 'fades' with time in Middle-earth, and yet... from another angle, all the magic is still 'there', but just in the form of the decreed effects that all valar/maiar have made upon the earth.
This is also compatible with the idea that the Valar themselves "shaped" the earth, tasked by Eru to do so, and much of their own energy was invested directly into the earth's final shape/form. They became, in a way, forces of nature by the transformation of themselves into decrees/physical-laws.
Bible says: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
...exactly this kinda thing, its all a matter of authority, Tolkien mirrored this I think.
Nice Job!
Tolkien write a mythology that is pre-Christian, so I don`t think gods is a faulty term, there really is no difference between gods and angels, angels are just a title referred to spiritual beings of whom they are seen in traditional catholic theology as among the lowest rank, in the old testament these spiritual beings are also refereed to as elohim, often translated as gods. Which can both denote the Supreme Deity or lesser spiritual beings.
The only difference that makes angels more accurate than gods is that Catholic Theology is difference from the worldview of the pagans who had an animistic cosmology. But this is more grasping at straws given that Classical and Hellenic philosophy would later deny such a cosmology and be adapted by Christianity.
Just before this passage Gandalf describes his first encounter with the Balrog. Says he spoke a Word of Command to shut the door and that nearly killed him because what was on the other side was as powerful.
You also failed to describe Gandalf's own account of his power, "There are many powers in this world, for Good or for Evil. Some are greater than I am. And against some I have not yet been tested."
Goliath laughed at David, but David responded that even though Goliath had a sword and spear, he came in the name of the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel.
There is also the scene where the Witch King tries to enter Minas Tirith. In the movies, he manages to beat Gandalf but is eventually distracted and flies away. In the book, Gandalf tells the Witch King "You cannot enter here" and indeed he cannot. It does not come to a fight between them but nevertheless the Witch King does not enter the city (because he can't).
Much later even Frodo gets into the action, telling Gollum that he will fall in the fires of Mount Doom if he ever lays hands on Frodo again. There is a whole bit about Frodo clasping the Ring as he says this, implying that he is drawing on it's power to make the statement true. Later on, Gollum does touch Frodo and falls into the fire.
You are absolutely right. I very nearly included that scene in Minas Tirith in this video. The only reason I didn’t was because I was really nit-picking the script for way too long and was shooting for utter simplicity and ease of understanding, so I did not add it. The scene with Gollum is a great example though. I remember it vividly now that you say it, but it did not cross my mind. That would have been a worthy addition to the video!
Whooo hooray for cursing your enemy
@Royalty Free and what if eru allowed frodo to make that decree? Or made frodos threat into reality.
Techinally eru tripped gollom but did he do so on his own accord, or did he do so because frodo asked essentially
@Royalty Free "because he is god" isnt a good answer.
@@royaltyfree9607 Even in Judeo-Christian tradition we see men influencing the actions of God. Abraham tried to talk God out of destroying the righteous with the wicked in Sodom, saying “If 50 righteous are found will you spare the city?” and God consents, Abraham proceeding to talk him down to just 10 righteous, which wasn’t enough because only Lot was found righteous.
Its also worth mentioning that the wizards were forbid of using their powers openly. So we did not got to see gandalf in his prime, he was there to help the free folk with his knowledge. He used the bare minimum and it was in the end enough.
The world was literally created trough songs. Its why i loved scene in fellowship where saruman sings on top of isengard to summon storm to take mountain down on the group.
Magic was influenced by words and songs of the spirits.
I love Tolkien and his portrayal of world.. Trully great mind
Yes! And also I think Gandalf was sent because Sauron was there so it was kinda unfair for the good side to have no counterpart, but they still wanted the humans and elves to win the fight by themselves instead of relying on the Maiars.
damn, now I'm thinking about a heavy metal bard... now that would be a sight.
Wanna hear something cool? Our world was created by song too.
@@jerryknuckles736 how so?
@@czechultimatestyle you should read your bible sirs.
I tried to tell people that the magic is the spoken word of language both in his fiction and in real life. those things Tolkien describes and puts in a language that others can automatically interpret into the most beautiful and moving art of all time. a language that can bring you to tears in the most minor of conversations within the text. the power of creation starts with the utterance.
Maybe the most correct interpretation is simply the most beautiful one. I've been playing around with that idea for a while in my head, but the right counterargument might turn it into a hot take. I'm moved to tears on every read-through of The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings. Maybe I'm just a big ol' baby though. Glad you're at least in the same boat haha.
@@bloodofnumenor I forgot to say totally agree with your assessment about the magic.
@@Peedarb the 'magic' is simply a response to literary celtic prose when he was a linguist written when druids and catholicism which was prevalent with celts/the druidic class he was studying at the time, less so anglo-saxons, aragorn is basically king arthur 'the hidden king', hobbits, elves, goblins and dwarfs are the twylith teg, gandalf is a rip off of merlin/emrys/ambrosious, the elves (elwen) get their influence from the cornish saints who fled to set up shop in brittany, so yeah of course they mimic biblical authority, it was literally what was happening in the era in question.
So true
The magical duel between Sauron and Finrod is a great example of this and helped shape my understanding of magic in Arda. Words have great power in this world and to speak them into being creates magical duels between the greater of orators. Of course, Finrod failed when he tried to invoke the power of the Elves and Valinor leaving an opening for Sauron to exploit with the Kinslaying at Alqualonde.
Finrod is honestly one of my favorite characters in the whole story.
Who doesn’t love some blood spilling between cousins ? Its all good
I wish you'd mentioned the distinction between the movie version, "You shall not pass", and the book version, "You cannot pass"; the first is conditional, the latter is a statement of fact. Magic in Middle Earth is all about someone's ability to exert their will upon their environment others. Regardless of whether they are Men, Elves, Ainur, whatever. The stronger ones will is, the stronger their power is. Elves are better at exerting their wills upon the world than Men because their spirits are bound and connected to it. The Ainur are best at it because their will literally shaped the world. But even Men can do magic in Middle Earth.
Omg I was thinking about this, when he was explaining the movie version, I thought that with that analysis, wouldn't "you cannot pass" make more sense. And it shows, that in the book it's written "as you cannot pass". Interesting take for sure.
Lotr is one piece?
He says both, though.
@@nickolas.vicente he says both. Go and check.
@@nickolas.vicente that's the book. In the film he says "you cannot pass" first and ends with "You shall not pass". Just check, man.
There are a few mentions of human sorcerers and “black magic” in the books, most notably the ongoing assumption that the Necromancer in Mirkwood was a mortal man for quite a while until Gandalf discovered it was Sauron. However, we never actually meet a human sorcerer, or learn anything specific about them.
Yeah, that is a separate issue. Take a look at my pinned comment. I addressed this there but should have in the video.
But we do meet the Ring Wraiths and especially the Witch King. Granted, they carry the Nine, but Tolkien says that the men who got these had been Kings and Sorcerers.
"What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think."
Basically it seemed like they are equal in power, and the door just gave up and burst into pieces, with both of them muttering spells and counter spells. I guess it is the same thing that happened to the bridge. Balrog wanted to move forward while Gandalf wanted him to stop. Bridge couldn't handle that shit and just destroyed itself.
I wish he had included this scene in the video. One of the most stark differences between the book Balrog and the film version. Really goes a long way towards showing that Gandalf and the Balrog really are from the same celestial order.
This is a great explanation for the contest between Saruman and Gandalf when the former possessed Theoden. Each was trying to write reality as they spoke it, with Gandalf eventually succeeding due to greater authority. Well stated!
Maybe its impossible to write this kind of magic into a game system, but if you did, then I sort of feel like the limitations on how often Gandalf can use his magic should be even higher than the most restrictive spells-per-day limit of any D&D magic user.
I mean, can you imagine how chaotic battles would be if the wizard player could freestyle rewrite reality multiple times a day?
Notice how tired Gandalf would be after using such magic.
Well in the world of darkness that´s exactly what mages do they shape reality with theyre thoughts and believes and Reality itself acts upon it if the mage for example opens a lock with magic nothing bad will happen to him since locks are made to be open but if he let´s say lifts a mountain in to the air reality will punish him maybe crushing the mage with it´s own spell or turn him completly mad and locked away in a bubble of his own mind outside the common reality they rewrite reality all the time but they always have to face the consequences
That's why after the great wars where the Valar were involved or Eru. Reality was ripped apart. Sunken, or the shape of the world changed.
Have a look at the video game "Baba is you". Closest thing I can think of.
Its like the only spell, that exists is Wish
I actually love this concept so much! It makes me think of the power of authority, in some worlds great beings are incapable of doing battle with greater beings not because they are weaker, but because they do not posses authority over that level of creation, which would make sense here as when Gandalf was the Grey he could not break Sarumans staff, but returned as the white with greater authority, he indeed can.
Authority is of supreme importance. Authority is why Aragorn was able to wrench control of the palantir from Sauron even though, as a being, Sauron was stronger.
@@bloodofnumenor ya exactly! That's such a cool concept!
@Mauri Font bruh, that's how EVERY story is written. Think of it like this, Eru (God) IS Tolkien, not a creation of him but just what he called himself within the text, Just like Stan Lee with the One Above All, it's thier self insert as a character into the story. Tolkien/Eru is the only being that can create life in middle earth, and no matter what happens he is the surpreme being, Melkor, no matter HOW strong he becomes within this world is still just a creation on the page, no more power against Eru than an orc, or a blade of grass near Gonder. Of course they won because "God wanted them to win" its tolkiens story, if he wanted them to lose they would have.
@@bloodofnumenor'I have looked in the Stone of Orthanc, my friends.'
'You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!' exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. 'Did you say aught to - him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.'
'You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted. 'What do you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Nay, Gimli, I am the lawful master of the Stone, and I had both the right and the strength to use it, or so I judged. The right cannot be doubted. The strength was enough - barely'
I think there are different kinds of magic overall in the Tolkien mythos. So yes - manifestation of expressions of the will of powerful beings, as you describe in the video - thats just one kind of magic, but its not the only kind. And its also not always the most powerful. Other kinds of magic do involve actual spells and rituals and the forging of magical items, etc. And some of those magically created things can be more powerful than the creative will alone. For example the one ring itself, the doors of moria, and similar things. That kind of magic cant be just simply changed, broken, etc. by the creative will. Instead a ritual procedure must be followed through, even by powerful beings, at least to some degree. I do think base power level of a being is always a factor, and so is creative will in directing power, but any limitations would trickle down from the base power level of a being. So for example Gandalf, as powerful a being as he is, could not by his creative will alone, break through the magical doors of moria, nor destroy the one ring, instead even he has to follow the rules of the magical created thing itself. But perhaps a Valar could, or Eru Iluvatar, if they so chose, because their base power is much stronger to create change.
I actually completely agree with this. My oversimplification was primarily to appeal to the broadest audience, and I would argue that it is the root of most if not all of the magic. The residual enchantment of the awakening of the Children of Iluvatar is another source.
so LOTR's magic system can be classified into 2 categories:
miracles and magecraft
sorry if i sound d^mb. i am just about to read the books...
is it a bad idea to start with "silmarion"?
Ummm. Tough call. In a way, yes. I read silmarilion after the other r3 books. Then I reread the first book (which seems to have more second and first age beleriand references in it.
@@btchiaintkidding7837
I would start with the Lord of the Rings trilogy or The Hobbit.
If you really like them then I would go for The Silmarillion but not everyone liked it (even hardcore fans of LOTR)
With the one ring I feel that though there was some ritual involved most of the magic comes from the fact that Sauron engraved the message upon the ring and gave will to the ring (for it to carry out its engraving) through imparting part of his soul onto it
This is why I always saw the book’s phrase “You CANNOT pass!” as more powerful than the film’s “You shall not pass.”
He says both in the film, though, I see that comment a lot, have people forgotten that?
@@Senny_V
I was thinking the same thing. In this video even shows Gandalf saying both 😂
There is also a moment in Fellowship, during the journey in the dark, before we meet Durin's Bane properly, when Gandalf, who has hung back to secure the Room of Mazarbul, rejoins the Fellowship and says that he has lain 'a Word of Power' on the door, but there is some power on the other side that may undo or.
This is such a cool description of a tricky concept! Thanks for the awesome video!
I've always had trouble understanding the magic of middle earth but this helped me quite a bit! Thanks friend!
A beautiful description, and very akin to the power that God bestows on those whom He loves, to cast out demons and heal the sick in His Son’s name. The power to declare.
This was interesting. I love how you described the magic of Middle Earth.
I would love an hour long video on more!
Thanks! More to come!
And in this incredible mess, Gandalf did not lose Narya, the elves' ring of Fire!
While Sauron lost it even when he was easily winning.
@@damasek219 Sauron lost the maintain one, not Narya, didn't he?
@@giovannicorno1247 right you are.
@@giovannicorno1247 he would have liked to have possession of the elve's rings as well though so that he could create more Ring Raiths.
@@justbecause3187 ah ok!
Fantastic video and explanation of this topic. I wholeheartedly agree with your statements. It’s a great way to view ‘magic’ in this universe.
Wow, this is an awesome video! Thank you! What an intriguing conception of magic and power. This helps me think about it in a new way! Awesome!
This was great stuff, I really hope you have lots more for us! 👏🏾🌟
This finally helped me understand the nature of magick in Lord of the Rings. Thank you.
Riveting take. Never heard it explained in such a way. You should make more videos! Your POV is worthwhile.
I appreciate it! I certainly plan to make more soon. Finally have the time and some neat ideas.
This is always how I viewed it! Very good! LOVE the Silmarillian!!!
This was great. I'm doing some research on magic systems for my own book and really needed this, thank you! Would love to hear more from you on these sorts of topics.
Great video and great assessment! I love this interpretation of how the magic works in Middle Earth! Great job!
Thank you kindly!
This is the best video on this topic. Well done.
Thank you!
this is a really good explanation i love the ideas you proposed
Thank you!
Excellent video! I sometimes roll my eyes at when casual fans talk about 'magic' in LOTR and "why can't Gandalf just shoot fireballs"
For real haha
Omg. Please do more videos like these.
I absolutely love these gems !!!?
Awesome video! Thanks for sharing your understanding.
Very well made video. Excellent quality, and very entertaining. Well met, brother.
Thank you; I appreciate it!
This is a very very good interpretation.
To add to this I also think they are constrained to the vision of Eru Iluvatar (or well, his song) so they cannot deviate from it.
It's also why I think Eru destroyed the Numenoreans when they tried to sail into Valinor, because them doing that was definitely NOT what Eru was planning for them haha.
Outstanding interpretation brother!
Thanks!
Really solid video dude! Your narration is fantastic
I love this. Thank you!
This gave me goosebumps.
You earned a sub, good work mate
Thank you!
This video is so good - well done ! 🙏
Excelente video. Can't wait for more
Thanks!
I always likes how magic is portrait in middle earth. It‘s less spell casting and laserbeam shooting and more on an emotional level. Like gandalf is in fact an angel who leads the good people of middle earth while Saruman is kind of a demon (fallen angel) who works with fear and so on
I like this interpretation! In a way it reminds me of Wheel of Time's Tel'a'ran'riod (world of dreams) where strength of wills and understanding of manipulating the world before you to said will is key. Only in Tolkien's world, these things are happening in the physical world as opposed to just the world of dreams. Very cool!
Glad you liked it! And wheel of time is great!
Great video! A very clear explanation. Highly interesting!!
Thanks!
Excellent video and explanation!
Thank you!
I loved this video. It explained so much. One note to that could help. I had trouble reading the text that was quoted. I get that it is in style. Just do you know. Thanks again for sharing
I’m glad you liked it! And yeah I think will be switching fonts for future videos
This was an incredible video
I always wondered what the idea behind the wizards was. Certainly I could see they were powerful in pivotal moments, but also they didn't seem terribly useful in a regular basis. Perhaps not as actively wielding combat spells as I expect from video games and other films. Your explanation of them was brilliant and immediately understandable.
This fits in well with the crossing of caradhras as well. Gandalf and Saruman are both calling out how the mountain should be, in a battle of wills.
Well done sir. You have earned another subscriber.
Thank you!
@@bloodofnumenor No, thank you my dude. Please keep up the videos. You have an nack for it, and I appreciate the insights and the delivery 🤙
Well done! The Ainur and Maiar retained a connection to the Music that created Arda, so they are capable of foretelling what is in a way destined to happen. I suspect the evil maiar who adopted Melkor’s beliefs could not attune themselves to the Music in this way because Melkor refused to believe what Eru told him - namely that anything he (Melkor) did would already be a part of Eru’s own intention. Melkor, and hence Sauron, believe they can overcome the Music of Eru and impose their will. Sauron (also a Maia) and the balrog do not believe in Eru’s infinite power or in the Secret Fire that is the source of creative power. Gandalf does have this faith.
Amazed, instant sub
Thanks!
Great video thanks!
This was really well done. It also makes me appreciate the Jackson movies even more that they pretty much nailed this scene in it's entirety.
For sure, Jackson did a great job.
Quick addendum: there is certainly actual spell-casting in the world of Eä. Some characters build more complex effects using the same force that created the world, namely the song Eru Illuvitar sang with the Ainur. It's an effect you see often in the Silmarillion from characters like Finrod, who sang a spell to hide his and his companions' appearances from the orcs and Sauron.
Cool explanation bro
Hey man. This was a really good explanation. I always thought as the different beings of the same level, i.e. Maiar vs Maiar and Valar vs Valar as kind of like a poler game- the hand you are holding determines your innate power compared to others of your same level, but when two of the same go at it it is then a battle of wills, kind of like the betting phase of poker. So even someone with a lesser hand can still beat someone with a higher hand if they have the cajones and skill in the betting.
I don't think it's necessarily so clear-cut. Feanor, Luthien, Galadriel, Glorfindel and Aragorn, for example, all seem to be on par with Gandalf in terms of skill/wisdom/strength etc.
When I say they're on par, I don't necessarily mean in terms of 'spell casting' or anything like that. Magic in Tolkien's works is more a representation of spirit and affinity with the natural world rather than being some type of rigid system. It's more like real world mythology and mysticism.
@@JJJ111JJJ my analogy doesn’t prohibit what you are saying. I agree about them. They’re kind of like heroes or demigods in Greek and Nordic myths- so powerful they can take on even some of the gods. But I still like to think of the battle between all of these higher beings more of as a test of wills more than mere test of physical or innate strength.
Thanks! I To acknowledge the discussion taking place, I'd say that the magic of the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men, etc.), is different. It is based on the residual enchantment from their awakening. It is possible that some of the early elves, specifically of the house if Finwe would have dueled well against someone like Gandalf. However, this was in the dawning of their power, when the enchantment of creation lay strong upon them. Aragorn, my favorite character, could have maybe proven himself a better swordsman than Gandalf, but could never have defeated him in battle.
I like your interpretation, but I should point out that when the Fellowship was trying to enter Moria, Gandalf himself said that he once know every spell that could open doors in many tongues (my paraphrase). So I conclude that there is actual spellcasting as well as the 'laws of physics' being declared that you explained.
and just before the bridge of Khazad Dum, Gandalf puts a shutting spell on the door in the Chamber of Marzarbul, and even states that the counter-spell was terrible.
Your take makes a lot of sense. Tolkien was a phylologist after all, so words and speech for him are very important aspects of our world. It's only natural that true power in his stories comes from them. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, everything created by Eru and the Ainur comes from songs and melodies, so again, we have words and speech manifesting magical effects on the universe. That one cool way to implement magic if you ask me.
Something only a person of JUdeoChristian faith, Scientific curiosity, AND a Tolkien nerd can draw together is how the Ainulindale music, String Theory, and the "Language of heaven'creation" are all tied to SOUND.
String Theory as propounded in the early 2000s draws a picture wherein each subatomic particle (quark neutrino, et al) is composed of those tiny tiny "cosmic string loops", each of which vibrates sonically in different resonance, and thus behaves in a different fashion. For me it all tied up brilliantly in my long-held belief that sound, especially the structured form of it that is Music, is the very foundation of existence. The ancient saying about music hath charms to sooth the savage beast" relates to this, as does the power of different forms of music to affect a human beings actual nervous system. Thus the old comment about 'that music/voice/sound" makes my teeth hurt".
Good interpretation. Consistent with D&D laws of magic, willpower and words of power. I furthermore think bridge destroyed as a result of the clashing willpower of two Maiar. We can assume the Balrog has similar powers and when he forces his will against Gandalf's word of power, the physical reality around them destroyed, in that case the bridge. In the book, similar thing happened before they reached the bridge, when Gandalf tried to stop Balrog and locking a door. Gandalf spell-locked it, Balrog used his will to pass and door was destroyed.
I made this point in another video, about Gandalf's level of power. He invokes Iluvatar, then forbids the Balrog from crossing. I also noted that his declaration seems to immediately work on the Orcs.
beautiful
Great video and a really interesting perspective. i thought your example of the Gandalf authorising the breaking of Saruman's staff was a really good one.
A quibble I have is that the Maiar aren't so much lesser gods as angelic beings, of notably lower rank than the Valar.
I'm glad you quoted from the book re Gandalf and the Balrog, as the movie now has too many folk thinking the words were "you Shall not pass"
"Cannot pass" supports your perspective and suggests a higher authority that Gandalf is representing.
You're absolutely right about them being angelic figures as opposed to lesser gods. That's better phrasing and more in line with Tolkien's Catholicism. However, I think the phrase "lesser gods" did help convey my point more concisely, especially to someone not deeply versed in the lore.
Agreed. It's a statement of fact, not of intent. In the book Gandalf just states it - no exclamation marks, no flying spittle. Just no. Like a parent setting boundaries for a child in tantrum.
Very perceptive.
@@bloodofnumenor or Catholicism.
The change worked so well for the movie. Instead of sounding more like the hall monitor and telling the fire demon "FYI passing here is against the rules just so you know. Don't shoot the messenger, I didn't make the rules"
Gandalf now seems to take it all on himself in the moment standing up to the Balrog. "I warn you: I'm a servant of the secret fire you sickening, degenerate flame of Udun. So you should heed my demand. You shall not pass! Bc I said so. If you want to test me it'll be the last thing you do"
My friend…… Let me tell you….I’m not even finished with this video! Yet I’m looking at that subscribe button REAL hard!
The spoken word as an expression of the will of the speaker, whose will is sufficiently powerful to reshape reality.
I would like to suggest using "deific" instead of "deistic" to describe the power of the Ainur. "Deistic" relates to "deism," which holds that deities do not interfere in the natural order of things.
Didn't make this connection before but now that it's explained this way, it's pretty clear paolini drew inspiration from this magic system to design the magic in the world of eragon. By speaking in the ancient language, in which one cannot lie, and drawing on reservoirs of energy to exert forces on the world, they're not so much casting spells as they are forcing something to become true because they said so.
My friend…… We still have not finished this video… But you have my subscription!… Yes my friend I am here doing chores do you have my attention! My left eye 😂 no my right eye!! it sees you!!!!
Nice video, I always looked at the Valar as more of Arch Angels not gods. With the Maia being lesser angels, and Eru Ilúvatar being god above all.
Thinking back to the scenes in The Two Towers (book) when Gandalf interacts with Saruman and the Trio and his very voice (or rather the will he conveys with it) seems to compel them to do as he wishes, this explanation is brilliant 👏 Well done.
Thank you!
I feel the same. its not about spells - its about declaring new truths
A cool thought is that there are multiple wills at play here.
The balrog who wants to pass. The dwarves who probably put some magic on the bridge. The ring that wants to be reclaimed and frodo resisting it.
Are there more occasions through out the history of Middle Earth showing how the magic works?
Very interesting video and interpretation. Never really understood why Gandalf was called a wizard. As mentioned by you in the comments angelic being fits him very well.
Yes, and perhaps I shall make a video on those. Most other examples come from The Silmarillion though. In the Silmarillion, there are a great number of decrees by the powers that I think support my point. Even the Doom of Mandos could be viewed this way. However, the elves, men, and dwarves are not deistic or near-deistic beings, so their magic is different somewhat.
@@bloodofnumenor Didn't Gandalf when he before sealed the door from the Balrog name this type of magic? Something like "I had to use a word of power".
He also uses other kinds of magic though, like casting lightning (orc cave in the hobbit) or columns of light (against the nazgul), I think these are completely different, lesser kinds of magic that may be accessible to other beings like elf's or humans.
Sauron battles one of Galadriel’s brothers in a straight up Singing contest in the first age and wins.
Imo the singing magic of Tolkien is the fusion of biblical word of God and the singing magic in Finnish Kalevala (in the Kalevala the heroes often battle each other by singing)
@@Ianassa91 yes! Gandalf was influenced by Väinämöinen. I’ve only read a bit of Kalevala, but it’s very cool.
It was a long time ago when I read these books. The movie is a bit fresher so Ill use it. Gandalf says do not take me for a conjurer of cheap tricks. Because he meant it wasnt just magic tricks.
A great video, but we should remember that there are “magic spells” in Arda. Gandald says he knows many words of power, but this form of magic is less miraculous and more a kind of knowledge.
I'm glad you liked it!. Take a look at my pinned comment. I addressed your point.
I love your idea of laws happen. It makes sense. It's like affecting that space and time to do the spell that's needed. And it makes sense. Since when gandalf fight off wolf type things he uses fire but worked with elements in the air. But most of all spells can't just happen anywhere there are rules and logic behind them. Like gandalf can't summon water out out of nothing. I think Tolkien would like dark souls miracles in which a story is told to do the miracle magic. Micheal moorcock also has neat magic in Elric he calls upon paterons. Demons do what they want and may not help. And some animal gods that created the first animals or insects may come to aid. And you have god of earth and sea too. I think these magic systems are way better than just flick a wand and you got fire bolts or water. More interesting and means every engagement needs to be thought of.
With Rings of Power coming out I hope more people come and subscribe so they can understand the show more..
I proclaim thee a worthy Tolkienian.. may your reign be long and unchallenged
Imagine going to fight someone and they literally create a new law physics to prevent you from passing them and getting their friends.
It's pretty cool
Another great example of LOTR magic is tithe before the scene given as an example... The one where they both try to open and close a door respectively and it shatters.
I see, interesting. This sounds like what David Eddings based his magic system, “the Will and the Word”, in the Belgariad on.
I like the idea of weaving the laws of the universe to stop the Balarog more that a 3000 year old grandpa tapping a bridge to make a creature with wings fall while he can leap or glide to the other end,, Love your view on it
Thanks! I appreciate it!
A common area of contention is whether Balrogs have wings or not. A key detail is that Tolkien writes that "the shadow about it reached out LIKE two vast wings".
@@paolos22 I get the controversy, but personally I like the wings.
@@paolos22 as a Maiar whether it had actual physical wings is irrelevant. If it chooses to have wings, or just decided to fly by rewriting the law of gravity, flying was within its power.
@@capnbilll2913 ah! It could choose to have wings or fly? That why it fell several thousand feet. Thanks lol
Very cool. I never gave this topic much thought. Will you go deeper into the subject with other examples?
Also, so Balrogs DO have wings???
Yep! I certainly will. And as for the wings, I see both sides. I like how they did it in the movies.
@@bloodofnumenor So I have a follow up question to your video. What or better yet, how do you explain the "contest of wills" when Gandalf and company are going over the mountain pass prior to Moriah when Legolas says he hears a foul voice on the wind? In the movie it's portrayed as the 2 wizards yelling spells at each other. Hope my question is clear, I've been up for nearly 24 hours.
I like that the book implied that Gandalf parried, rather than whatever ball force field we got in the movie.
Damn I didn't know that's how it worked.
I have an abandonned book project where the magic works similarly that except instead of decrees it works with one's perception of reality and imagination and it's a lot less controled so it tend to create catastrophes. As a result people who have this abilities are forced into a life as dull as possible not allowed to read fiction and develop their imagination.
I had a scene written where a character has intrusive thoughts that ends up swallowing parts of the areas around them and hurting them before they snap out of it.
And there were like, basically witch hunters (to simplify) who are specialized in fightiing them and they do that by denying their perception of the world treating it like an illusion which stops the magic from having effect but only if there are no witnesses other than them and the target because that would create a witness rendering it real.
I never been very far into that project but I find the notion of magic based on things like language and perception rather than law to be fascinating ideas. Magic that truely changes reality at a base level rather than just being a different way reality operates.
dude that sounds like a sick book please write it
Thanks a lot for the video! I might have heard a different explanation in The Prancing Pony Podcast. I learned Gandalf was actually decreeing that the Balrog had no power to get passed him; as he was doing Eru's will. Maybe in a way that's the same as what you're saying. Just a thought.
References to this moment make me more confused about the "do Balrogs have wings?" Conversation
They reference the Balrog wing question on the Prancing Pony podcast almost every episode. Love it.
Good vid
Just gotta take a super nerdy tangent for anyone who’s read the wheel of time books. Does this kind of magic take place in the very last chapter possibly the epilogue? That idea hit me listening to this and I am amazed.
1:35 because Tolkien wanted characters to not be pushing the occult like Harry Potter. Tolkien was a more traditional minded Catholic. Therefore he wanted people to use there arms to fight and not be using spells
Gandalf's "You cannot pass" was simply a statement, a cry of his willing this to take place. There was no magic. The only "magic" was the fact that he felt empowered with the Secret Fire (which Tolkien told us was the Catholic Holy Spirit - an element of God and the Blessed Trinity which both creates and empowers one with grace to fight, good against evil). Gandalf is the servant of God, of Eru, of the Secret Flame, of Tom Bombadil - the manifestation on Arda of the Holy Spirit. Tolkien's "magic" is a mix of Catholic grace and empowerment with medieval sorcery, viz. the ring of power, Gandalf's staff, Bombadil's song (a continuation of the music of the Anur), etc. The Balrog was, like Gandalf, a maiar. He therefore could pass, but was stopped only through the physical destruction of the bridge by the "magic" (a power blast) of Gandalf's staff.
I agree with a great deal of what you say as it relates to Catholicism, but there are many examples, other than Gandalf, of the powers decreeing and their decrees being law. As their power was spent, specifically Melkor’s, the world took form and was harder to change. I view the decrees of Gandalf as mentioned in the video as continuations of the worlds creation. He willed it to be. Yes, he was of similar might to the Balrog, but clearly Gandalf was stronger.
@@bloodofnumenor Whilst Gandalf eventually killed the Balrog, in fact, the Balrog also "killed" him, as he died due to their battle. A moot point, I know.
@@bloodofnumenor Gandalf did not have the power of creation. Only Eru had that power.
@@tombombadill22 If we look to the Silmarillion we can very clearly see that the Valar had power of creation and it was not "exclusive" to Eru. What was exclusive to Eru was "life". Consciousness. Will. The things in modern psychology that are not explainable and in modern biology cannot be answered. The "why".
@@kooldudematt1 Tom brought the 3 hobbits back to life in the barrow-wight cavern. Only Eru could do that. With the song 'Wake now my merry lads ... Warm now be heart and limb ....' Tom spends his days "creating." He is "master", "fatherless" like no other being in Arda, in Ea. He was there before all other things.
I not convinced by your reasoning. 1) Every race in Middle-earth, not only the Istari, possess a certain possibility to bend the reality with something that the narrator of the LOTR, Frodo Baggins, think to be some sort of magic (I'm referring in particular to the conversation with Galadriel).
2) When Gandalf try to open the Doors of Durin stay there a lot of time trying every spell of every race in every tongue before remember the right password. So exist magic formulas in Middle-earth, simply, unlike HP, "magic" is not really a "thing", but a mysterious (for a normal being) ability to bend reality that some individuals of every race can use.
I would argue that the magic of the races, as opposed to the powers, is based more on the waning enchantment of their creation and authority over their respective realms. Yes, there are spells and magic, and some of the powers may use these but it is somewhat a difference in kind. The deistic power that I described does not extend to the magic of elves or men.
@@bloodofnumenor I see, but in your description weren't clear the distinctions that can exist between the different kinds of magic
@@CalogeroPeritore You are absolutely right. I should have made that more clear.
Yes! Great take. There's another part here about the witch king and how it is declared that they cannot be killed by any man, which is the middle earth equivalent of a major buff lol.
I had interpreted the part about the secret fire to be the ring he holds from cirdan - narya the elf ring of fire. It's invisible most of the time. I had heard another UA-camr talk about how the power of that ring was to light the fire inside of men, which is why he is always talking people up and inspiring them vs grima who does the opposite to great effect.
I love what you said about writing the future in a moment - changing the rules as you go. In the movies, there is choral music throughout.i just noticed in my last watching, that this music swells after big events. Obviously a movie thing but also that these are the big events of the age as sung by the valar in the first days
I’m glad you enjoyed! The secret fire is not the ring of fire though. For Gandalf would not be a servant of a Ring. The secret fire is the flame imperishable from The Silmarillion. To your second point, I too love the use of music in the films. At the end of the third movie, at the Black Gate, Aragorn says “For Frodo,” and charges. When he does this a strong choir arises singing the Fellowship theme. The words being sung are elvish for “If by my life or death I can protect you, I will.” - Aragorns oath from Fellowship.
I agree with mos of your theory. I would add the nature manipulation to it, nature as the world it self, of course Gandalf and the others weren't allowed to use this at it full extend, you could say using the lightning to strike the Balrog was cheating, but it was the only way ;)
Very good! They were Maiar, "Ishatari" I believe they were called..?
Why am I crying after listening to this?
I certainly cried when it clicked for me during a read-through of The Fellowship of the Ring (this was prior to my first reading of The Silmarillion). It’s one of those thematic elements that fills the heart when one can finally articulate it in the mind. Or maybe I’m just a pretentious ass HAHA! Either way, I’m glad you enjoyed it!
@@bloodofnumenor loved it! thank you.
I think anoteworthy mention here would also be the various oaths that play a role. In the world of tolkien a spoken oath is an actual magical pact that can have dire consequences if you break it, and even humans are capable of this simpel form of magic.
In finnish mythology there are words "väki" and "haltija" or "haltioituminen". Väki kinda refers to personal or magical power - there are different types of väki. I think closest term would be mana. For example a person (smith, shaman, king) usually has väki but also objects and natural phenomena can have väki. Haltija ("possessor") is close haltia (elf). Also word hallita (to control, to possess) derives from that word.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haltija
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4ki
In my opinion magic in tolkienverse is very similar to concept of väki
The more I delve into LOTR and its mythology, the less it sounds like a magical adventure of quirky characters, wizards, and monsters and more like biblical fan fiction. Once you see Gandalf as an angel, the balrog as a demon, and Morgoth/Sauron as Lucifer, it can't be unseen.
There are certainly similarities and inspirations, but Tolkien disliked allegory. So its not one to one, but I definitely take your point.
@@bloodofnumenor that's not an allegory, nor did talking hate using real world things as basis for his world
I agree with the foundation of the five wizards powers as you said in the video, but what about the other magic users of middle earth?
Yeah, the races of middle earth are separate. I did not clarify that. There is a brief description of that in the pinned comment.
also from the two towers we learned he dosent need his staff to do magic because he said from afar people saw lightning strike the mountain the leaped back