Mark Dever's comment about paedobaptism was unkindly delivered. I grew up SBC and lived SBC for the first 30 years of my life. "Baptist" was all I knew. SBC, specifically. Thus, I believe my comments can be helpful to this discussion as a lay person who sought FOR YEARS to find a faithful church. One day, Dr. Sproul was mentioned. My whole world changed. FINALLY! Someone who would teach theology instead of pablum in a way that was totally accessible!! Finally, someone who would teach ALL of scripture, seeing the continuity of theology from Genesis to Revelation!! Our minds and hearts marveled at the coherency of scripture we were learning through this new hermeneutic of Covenant Theology. The difficult part was finding a church that actually taught these things properly. Most true reformed churches are small. When you grow up Baptist, you don't even know what they are called. Several years later, we found an URCNA -- and we have never looked back. We even had a few hiccups, one of them being in Mark's father-in-law's church, which was not the kind of church I am talking about. The USA Pres has gone off its rocker, though Mark's father-in-law was not one of them. We began to attend this historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church - it was an URCNA out of WSCAL mindset. I have never stopped thanking God for his faithfulness to me -- FINALLY, I could understand!! Here's what I've learned on this difficult personal journey. Baptists will die on the hill of credobaptism whether it's right or not. Their tradition is more important to them than actually going out and participating fully for a time in an historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church so they can actually understand the nuances of our faith. They would rather ridicule first because having a sound foundation and experience in a faithful church, like the URCNA one of which I speak. We discovered and were taught deeply the beautiful hermeneutic of Covenant Theology as a congregation. Surprise, surprise, now that "reformed" baptists seem to grasp that CT is actually a good thing, they made one version of their own. They can't just accept its historic beauty. They retwizzled it to fit their tradition and their preferred view of baptism. It totally takes away from the beauty and assurance of CT as a hermeneutic. I discovered in this historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church that we met many more congregational members who actually KNOW what they believe and WHY they believe it. The SBC has still, for the most part, remained the social club it's always been with a few people sprinkled in who want to know things more deeply. When I hear Mark respond the way he did in this video? I feel myself once again living in that suppressive SBC world in which I lived for so many years, craving deep teaching for decades before God finally led me to a place where it could be found. The SBC was full of opinions, but most had no real experience in the very thing they are criticizing How i wish I had understand the beauty of proper paedobaptism when I was a young mother. Instead, my kids were subjected to repetitious "altar calls" and there were worries about "when will my baby be saved!!!" "What if God doesn't save him/her?" Tears, tears, tears. Now, as I watch each beloved baby become baptized within our covenant body, I understand that some of those babies are those mentioned in Eph. 1 -- those whom God has known from before the foundation of the world to be his. I am assured that all of them will grow up in a faithful church where they will be catechized to actually understand sound theology (I never got that in the SBC). We continually pray for them to embrace the faith that they are studying, while understanding the sovereignty of God in regeneration and in all things. Mark's point, btw, makes no sense at all.......I guess it was ok for baptists to change their view, but not historic reformed folk? The peace given to me in the historic, confessional, conservative Reformed world has been amazing. I would NEVER go back to the SBC or any other baptistic church except for a brief visit. I am happy it is left behind, specifically because of the sound theology of the historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church. I'm also glad I left the SBC behind because they somehow can't see that little flaw -- that their view of baptism is still a "work" that "they" end up doing. They refuse to see the beauty of CT in its original form, understanding the promises of Abraham and those coming after him "I Will Be A God to You AND Your Children." Mark called hccReformed Christians crazy - in a public setting. Yet, in the hccr world I've come to love, I have seen constant kindness towards Baptists. They don't call you crazy. They don't tell others you are crazy. They walk their walk for the most part (knowing all of us fail). We, in the hccReformed world disagree with you, but I have never seen the outburst of emotion which you presented, Mark. Rather, their trust in the sovereignty of God is so strong that even the most difficult things in life are met with theological understanding, which is a great recipe for true peace. So for all of those frustrated Baptists out there? Those of you, who like me, were never taught to understand real theology in Baptist churches, there is a beautiful place you can find made up of peace and solid theology. Check out the URCNA, the OPC and some select PCAs. There are others in a union of churches called NAPARC that might be in your area. They have different practices, but the theology is very close to one another. Our churches are small -- you will have to hunt for them. There is no perfect church. Yes, you will have to get used to a new worship "style." Once you get used this change, you will sit in awe, understanding that the sacrament of holy communion is more than a simple memorial service -- that there is peace to be found in the proper view of Covenant theology as a hermeneutic, "I Will Be a God to You and Your Children." You will see the blessing of baptism of our children. You will understand why the worship service is crafted the way it is, much of it done so as to avoid the idolatry you see in other places of worship. Yes, I sadly lived in the megachurch world for a time playing keyboard up on the "stage" -- until I realized that it was pure idolatry - they were worshiping the band, not God. Here is a resource from a sound theologian at WSCAL about paedobaptism: Dr, R, Scott Clark: heidelblog.net/2018/08/heidelcast-series-i-will-be-a-god-to-you-and-to-your-children/ Just about anything you find on www.ligonier.org will inspire you to dig further to understand why the credobaptism view is really not the faithful view. This is a better place to start for newbies....then you will graduate to deeper theology. Ligon Duncan has a wonderful series on Subsplash on the proper view of Covenant Theology (though there is one point upon which I disagree with him). It's essential to understand the hermeneutic of CT properly. That's how you will understand scripture. I will never look back. There are many beautiful, wonderful people in the Baptist world. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I enjoy their friendship. But even more, I enjoy the friendship of the hccReformed world. Why? We actually talk theology together. We live it together as a covenant body of Christ. Our children stay with us in worship to learn these things, too, instead of putting them in Children's church, where they will never learn to sing hymns with us - people of all generations, as one body of Christ. They will never learn the things they would have picked up from the sermons. Once I tried to make a 'reformed baptist' church work. I discovered the culture was the same. Very few people in the congregation really knew what they believed and why they believed it. I love the catechization of the hccr churches. No, I will never look back. A brief word of caution to reformed newbies. Don't look at Doug Wilson and his crowd in Moscow, ID. THAT IS NOT what you are looking for - you'll get hurt in that world, too. He tries to tell you he is reformed, but his theology is messed up. He has NO seminary degree. He is a marketeer. God is indeed not only the God of adults, but of the babies they produce. After all, God's sovereignty and providence were involved in their birth. From Genesis to Revelation, we see ONE story of redemption, not many "dispensations" of how things have changed (that is so messed up). Abraham reminded us of this rich blessing and it is found all the way through scripture. Entire households were baptized in the New Testament. It is doubtful there were no babies at all in those households. Mark? I know you are passionate about your own preferred beliefs. Maybe tone it down?
Mark Dever's comment about paedobaptism was unkindly delivered. I grew up SBC and lived SBC for the first 30 years of my life. "Baptist" was all I knew. SBC, specifically. Thus, I believe my comments can be helpful to this discussion as a lay person who sought FOR YEARS to find a faithful church.
One day, Dr. Sproul was mentioned. My whole world changed. FINALLY! Someone who would teach theology instead of pablum in a way that was totally accessible!! Finally, someone who would teach ALL of scripture, seeing the continuity of theology from Genesis to Revelation!!
Our minds and hearts marveled at the coherency of scripture we were learning through this new hermeneutic of Covenant Theology. The difficult part was finding a church that actually taught these things properly. Most true reformed churches are small. When you grow up Baptist, you don't even know what they are called. Several years later, we found an URCNA -- and we have never looked back.
We even had a few hiccups, one of them being in Mark's father-in-law's church, which was not the kind of church I am talking about. The USA Pres has gone off its rocker, though Mark's father-in-law was not one of them.
We began to attend this historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church - it was an URCNA out of WSCAL mindset. I have never stopped thanking God for his faithfulness to me -- FINALLY, I could understand!!
Here's what I've learned on this difficult personal journey. Baptists will die on the hill of credobaptism whether it's right or not. Their tradition is more important to them than actually going out and participating fully for a time in an historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church so they can actually understand the nuances of our faith. They would rather ridicule first because having a sound foundation and experience in a faithful church, like the URCNA one of which I speak.
We discovered and were taught deeply the beautiful hermeneutic of Covenant Theology as a congregation. Surprise, surprise, now that "reformed" baptists seem to grasp that CT is actually a good thing, they made one version of their own. They can't just accept its historic beauty. They retwizzled it to fit their tradition and their preferred view of baptism. It totally takes away from the beauty and assurance of CT as a hermeneutic.
I discovered in this historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church that we met many more congregational members who actually KNOW what they believe and WHY they believe it. The SBC has still, for the most part, remained the social club it's always been with a few people sprinkled in who want to know things more deeply.
When I hear Mark respond the way he did in this video? I feel myself once again living in that suppressive SBC world in which I lived for so many years, craving deep teaching for decades before God finally led me to a place where it could be found. The SBC was full of opinions, but most had no real experience in the very thing they are criticizing
How i wish I had understand the beauty of proper paedobaptism when I was a young mother. Instead, my kids were subjected to repetitious "altar calls" and there were worries about "when will my baby be saved!!!" "What if God doesn't save him/her?" Tears, tears, tears.
Now, as I watch each beloved baby become baptized within our covenant body, I understand that some of those babies are those mentioned in Eph. 1 -- those whom God has known from before the foundation of the world to be his. I am assured that all of them will grow up in a faithful church where they will be catechized to actually understand sound theology (I never got that in the SBC). We continually pray for them to embrace the faith that they are studying, while understanding the sovereignty of God in regeneration and in all things. Mark's point, btw, makes no sense at all.......I guess it was ok for baptists to change their view, but not historic reformed folk?
The peace given to me in the historic, confessional, conservative Reformed world has been amazing. I would NEVER go back to the SBC or any other baptistic church except for a brief visit. I am happy it is left behind, specifically because of the sound theology of the historic, confessional, conservative Reformed church.
I'm also glad I left the SBC behind because they somehow can't see that little flaw -- that their view of baptism is still a "work" that "they" end up doing. They refuse to see the beauty of CT in its original form, understanding the promises of Abraham and those coming after him "I Will Be A God to You AND Your Children."
Mark called hccReformed Christians crazy - in a public setting. Yet, in the hccr world I've come to love, I have seen constant kindness towards Baptists. They don't call you crazy. They don't tell others you are crazy. They walk their walk for the most part (knowing all of us fail). We, in the hccReformed world disagree with you, but I have never seen the outburst of emotion which you presented, Mark. Rather, their trust in the sovereignty of God is so strong that even the most difficult things in life are met with theological understanding, which is a great recipe for true peace.
So for all of those frustrated Baptists out there? Those of you, who like me, were never taught to understand real theology in Baptist churches, there is a beautiful place you can find made up of peace and solid theology. Check out the URCNA, the OPC and some select PCAs. There are others in a union of churches called NAPARC that might be in your area. They have different practices, but the theology is very close to one another. Our churches are small -- you will have to hunt for them.
There is no perfect church. Yes, you will have to get used to a new worship "style." Once you get used this change, you will sit in awe, understanding that the sacrament of holy communion is more than a simple memorial service -- that there is peace to be found in the proper view of Covenant theology as a hermeneutic, "I Will Be a God to You and Your Children." You will see the blessing of baptism of our children. You will understand why the worship service is crafted the way it is, much of it done so as to avoid the idolatry you see in other places of worship. Yes, I sadly lived in the megachurch world for a time playing keyboard up on the "stage" -- until I realized that it was pure idolatry - they were worshiping the band, not God.
Here is a resource from a sound theologian at WSCAL about paedobaptism: Dr, R, Scott Clark: heidelblog.net/2018/08/heidelcast-series-i-will-be-a-god-to-you-and-to-your-children/
Just about anything you find on www.ligonier.org will inspire you to dig further to understand why the credobaptism view is really not the faithful view. This is a better place to start for newbies....then you will graduate to deeper theology.
Ligon Duncan has a wonderful series on Subsplash on the proper view of Covenant Theology (though there is one point upon which I disagree with him). It's essential to understand the hermeneutic of CT properly. That's how you will understand scripture.
I will never look back. There are many beautiful, wonderful people in the Baptist world. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I enjoy their friendship. But even more, I enjoy the friendship of the hccReformed world. Why? We actually talk theology together. We live it together as a covenant body of Christ. Our children stay with us in worship to learn these things, too, instead of putting them in Children's church, where they will never learn to sing hymns with us - people of all generations, as one body of Christ. They will never learn the things they would have picked up from the sermons.
Once I tried to make a 'reformed baptist' church work. I discovered the culture was the same. Very few people in the congregation really knew what they believed and why they believed it. I love the catechization of the hccr churches. No, I will never look back.
A brief word of caution to reformed newbies. Don't look at Doug Wilson and his crowd in Moscow, ID. THAT IS NOT what you are looking for - you'll get hurt in that world, too. He tries to tell you he is reformed, but his theology is messed up. He has NO seminary degree. He is a marketeer.
God is indeed not only the God of adults, but of the babies they produce. After all, God's sovereignty and providence were involved in their birth. From Genesis to Revelation, we see ONE story of redemption, not many "dispensations" of how things have changed (that is so messed up).
Abraham reminded us of this rich blessing and it is found all the way through scripture. Entire households were baptized in the New Testament. It is doubtful there were no babies at all in those households.
Mark? I know you are passionate about your own preferred beliefs. Maybe tone it down?
It was kindly delivered and true.