A very interesting discussion which really made me see from the real, Orthodox, perspective. I was way too much influenced by the western point of view of hell. I love these videos.
...this is great!...this is what they teach at the St Tikhon Diaconate Extension classes at St Stephen Orthodox Cathedral at Phila.....can't wait to see the movie....
@allsaintsmonastery Thank you. Both of those make quite a lot of sense. I remember as a young man reading Revelations, particular about this group of "virgin" men, and thinking that it seemed oddly out of place.
Is the screenwriter in this discussion --Kevin Miller-- the same person as Kevin Lee Miller? Kevin Lee Miller wrote the scrrenplays for 'Recreating the Eighth Wonder: The Making of 'King Kong' (video documentary, 2006) --for which her served as co-producer, too, as well as 'J.R.R. Tolkien: The Legacy of Middle-Earth' (video documentary short released in 2004)...and some 30+ more films dating back to 1986.
@genwye Someone asked me what the "second" Gnostic phrase was in the Book of Revelation: it is the closing paragraphy with threats against anyone who adds or detracts from the book. Protestants, or course, think that the author is referring to the whole Bible, with is ludicrous. However, the statement is a classic Gnostic ending to Gnostic apocalypses.
@E3Harrison It is possible, I suppose. We do try to get three perspectives on these Symposia: Orthodox, Anglican and Evangelical. That it was a symposium is about.
Someone asked me what the "second" Gnostic phrase was in the Book of Revelation: it is the closing paragraphy with threats against anyone who adds or detracts from the book. Protestants, or course, think that the author is referring to the whole Bible, with is ludicrous. However, the statement is a classic Gnostic ending to Gnostic apocalypses.
@Millstone99 From the great Azerbaidjani Prophet Zoroaster (Zarathustra) via the Gnostics. Even in Russia, the distorted and non-Orthodox view of hell came through Gnostic writings that had become especially popular in 19th Century Russia (pseudo-epigraphica and Gnostic writings were very popular in 19th century Russia).
@allsaintsmonastery Agreed, I think some concept came into existence when they were in Babylon. That is when some came into contact with the Zoroastrian's.
I actually watched a History Channel documentary the other day that made exactly the same connection between the Latin/Protestant view and Zoroastrianism.
@MapleAnglican The words about men who have not been defiled with women, and the closing "warning" about neither adding to nor detracting from..... are both classic Gnostic formulae. It is strange that Sectarians think the closing statement in the Apocalypse is talking about the entire Bible and do not know that it is referring only to the Apocalypse (Revelation).
exists in energy. Matter is simply energy in a stored form. There is nothing but created energy in our universe, in either the form of matter (stored energy) or "volitile" energy. God's energy is uncreated. Time is a product of being. Time and space came into being together; matter arose from energy being stored.
Define energy? Action? Effort? Or an eternal force i.e., God. Is God pure energy? Was energy created--was there a time when energy didn't exist? Or is energy and God synonymous? Did energy become flesh and walk among us?
@greglee20 It is certainly questionable. There are good reasons to doubt that the Evangelist was the author, but that in itself does not matter, since the Council did finally choose to include it in the New Testament. The real danger is for those who want to interpret it. The metaphor is quite explosive, and too many would like to make literal interpretations of the metaphore, or speculate too wildly about it.
@MsSSnow I am not sure where it originated in the form so often portrayed. Certainly the Zoroastrians has a sense of a punitive hell, but other early systems had varying forms of it: often just a dark, gloomy presence. The Hebrew Scripture has no such concept as "hell," and not even "hades." Sheol is more like the grave itself. Doubtless after Hellenistic times began, some concepts like "hades" must have drifted in, but the notion of hell in the Latin/Protestant sense is more Zoroastrian
Christ on the Cross says to one being crucified with Him will come with him to His Father's Kingdom not the other. So, where is the other one going to? We can't deny His words, that's heresy?
@bigboy45454545 BB, balming. Better to bomb, shoot, imprison and kill that to do anything logical, reasonable and humane about "moral" issues, eh? People too poor to afford health care or any kind of insurance? Let the bloody layabouts die in their hovels; not governments job to look after the citizens of the nation. Prostitutes? Lock em up. Not government's job to get at root causes and use commonsense and rational means to help solve the issues. How 'bout an Atheist crusade to do some good?
I understand that matter is stored energy. I understand our universe is full of energy stored in matter or otherwise existing. You say, "God's energy is uncreated." Is energy therefore eternal i.e., if God has energy then it must have existed forever. How would you define energy prior to creation?
@bigboy45454545 BB, if we could convince people to stop moralising their situation, provide free maintenance doses for genuine addicts, and help the through the process of re-entering life. The problem is that (a) addiction has been moralised, so we cannot do anything useful and intelligent about helping people and (b) the narcotics trade is too big a portion of the GNP in the U.S. for good capitalists to want to take org. crime out of business. Besides, the business of America is bombing not
Of course, if you were an Orthodox Christian, you would know the answer to all this. Paul uses the word "energy" 26 times in his Epistles (though the Sectarian translators throw the word out from ignorance). We do not know the essence of God, only that he communicates with us through His energies (Grace), not His essence. Christ Jesus is the incarnation of God, so that we could see Him face to face in the flesh and understand the co-suffering love of God with man. Nevertheless, everything that
@bigboy45454545 BB, you ALMOST made it through without any vulgarity. So I send you my ALMOST congratulations.. Now learn to use a fork when you eat, instead of using a tablespoon and a metal pie plate, and you will be on your way to social graces. But as to "hell," people create it for themselves, and both create and experience it right now, in this life. Ask any heroin addict who must prostitute his or her self in order to feed the habit. Of course, we could free them from most of that hell
A very interesting discussion which really made me see from the real, Orthodox, perspective. I was way too much influenced by the western point of view of hell. I love these videos.
Thank you for these videos.
...this is great!...this is what they teach at the St Tikhon Diaconate Extension classes at St Stephen Orthodox Cathedral at Phila.....can't wait to see the movie....
Vladika: Submitted a video along the same theme. In a new series, it was difficult to explain accurately. Please correct my mistakes.
@allsaintsmonastery Thank you. Both of those make quite a lot of sense. I remember as a young man reading Revelations, particular about this group of "virgin" men, and thinking that it seemed oddly out of place.
@ioannismiami no, this is Kevin Miller, co-writer of Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.
Is the screenwriter in this discussion --Kevin Miller-- the same person as Kevin Lee Miller? Kevin Lee Miller wrote the scrrenplays for 'Recreating the Eighth Wonder: The Making of 'King Kong' (video documentary, 2006) --for which her served as co-producer, too, as well as 'J.R.R. Tolkien: The Legacy of Middle-Earth' (video documentary short released in 2004)...and some 30+ more films dating back to 1986.
@genwye Someone asked me what the "second" Gnostic phrase was in the Book of Revelation: it is the closing paragraphy with threats against anyone who adds or detracts from the book. Protestants, or course, think that the author is referring to the whole Bible, with is ludicrous. However, the statement is a classic Gnostic ending to Gnostic apocalypses.
@E3Harrison It is possible, I suppose. We do try to get three perspectives on these Symposia: Orthodox, Anglican and Evangelical. That it was a symposium is about.
Someone asked me what the "second" Gnostic phrase was in the Book of Revelation: it is the closing paragraphy with threats against anyone who adds or detracts from the book. Protestants, or course, think that the author is referring to the whole Bible, with is ludicrous. However, the statement is a classic Gnostic ending to Gnostic apocalypses.
@Millstone99 From the great Azerbaidjani Prophet Zoroaster (Zarathustra) via the Gnostics. Even in Russia, the distorted and non-Orthodox view of hell came through Gnostic writings that had become especially popular in 19th Century Russia (pseudo-epigraphica and Gnostic writings were very popular in 19th century Russia).
@allsaintsmonastery Agreed, I think some concept came into existence when they were in Babylon. That is when some came into contact with the Zoroastrian's.
I actually watched a History Channel documentary the other day that made exactly the same connection between the Latin/Protestant view and Zoroastrianism.
Vladika: What phrases in Revelations were considered Gnostic?
@Millstone99 Thanks.
So is eternity happening right now?
@MapleAnglican The words about men who have not been defiled with women, and the closing "warning" about neither adding to nor detracting from..... are both classic Gnostic formulae. It is strange that Sectarians think the closing statement in the Apocalypse is talking about the entire Bible and do not know that it is referring only to the Apocalypse (Revelation).
exists in energy. Matter is simply energy in a stored form. There is nothing but created energy in our universe, in either the form of matter (stored energy) or "volitile" energy. God's energy is uncreated. Time is a product of being. Time and space came into being together; matter arose from energy being stored.
@bigboy45454545 perhaps you'd like to be interviewed for hellbound. You seem to have a lot on your mind.
@allsaintsmonastery Amen Father, agreed my sentiments exactly.
Define energy? Action? Effort? Or an eternal force i.e., God. Is God pure energy? Was energy created--was there a time when energy didn't exist? Or is energy and God synonymous? Did energy become flesh and walk among us?
@greglee20 It is certainly questionable. There are good reasons to doubt that the Evangelist was the author, but that in itself does not matter, since the Council did finally choose to include it in the New Testament. The real danger is for those who want to interpret it. The metaphor is quite explosive, and too many would like to make literal interpretations of the metaphore, or speculate too wildly about it.
@MsSSnow I am not sure where it originated in the form so often portrayed. Certainly the Zoroastrians has a sense of a punitive hell, but other early systems had varying forms of it: often just a dark, gloomy presence. The Hebrew Scripture has no such concept as "hell," and not even "hades." Sheol is more like the grave itself. Doubtless after Hellenistic times began, some concepts like "hades" must have drifted in, but the notion of hell in the Latin/Protestant sense is more Zoroastrian
Christ on the Cross says to one being crucified with Him will come with him to His Father's Kingdom not the other. So, where is the other one going to? We can't deny His words, that's heresy?
@allsaintsmonastery
Is hell not separation from God?
Jos Lutgens God is omnipresent
@bigboy45454545 BB, balming. Better to bomb, shoot, imprison and kill that to do anything logical, reasonable and humane about "moral" issues, eh? People too poor to afford health care or any kind of insurance? Let the bloody layabouts die in their hovels; not governments job to look after the citizens of the nation. Prostitutes? Lock em up. Not government's job to get at root causes and use commonsense and rational means to help solve the issues. How 'bout an Atheist crusade to do some good?
I understand that matter is stored energy. I understand our universe is full of energy stored in matter or otherwise existing. You say, "God's energy is uncreated." Is energy therefore eternal i.e., if God has energy then it must have existed forever. How would you define energy prior to creation?
@bigboy45454545 BB, if we could convince people to stop moralising their situation, provide free maintenance doses for genuine addicts, and help the through the process of re-entering life. The problem is that (a) addiction has been moralised, so we cannot do anything useful and intelligent about helping people and (b) the narcotics trade is too big a portion of the GNP in the U.S. for good capitalists to want to take org. crime out of business. Besides, the business of America is bombing not
Didnt the first concept of hell come from the zoroastrians?
Of course, if you were an Orthodox Christian, you would know the answer to all this. Paul uses the word "energy" 26 times in his Epistles (though the Sectarian translators throw the word out from ignorance). We do not know the essence of God, only that he communicates with us through His energies (Grace), not His essence. Christ Jesus is the incarnation of God, so that we could see Him face to face in the flesh and understand the co-suffering love of God with man. Nevertheless, everything that
@bigboy45454545 BB, you ALMOST made it through without any vulgarity. So I send you my ALMOST congratulations.. Now learn to use a fork when you eat, instead of using a tablespoon and a metal pie plate, and you will be on your way to social graces. But as to "hell," people create it for themselves, and both create and experience it right now, in this life. Ask any heroin addict who must prostitute his or her self in order to feed the habit. Of course, we could free them from most of that hell
i dont even think this protestant guy even is sure about what he is talking about.
Jesus died to deal with sin and Death. Where does it say he died to deal with a pagan Nordic word “Hell”.