For folks curious about how the Punisher is willing to kill even litterers here, this link details all of Punisher's guest appearances which helps put it into context. Basically, here in 1983 he was written as having finally gone crazy. This was retconned three years later in Punisher's first limited series by writer Steven Grant and artist Mike Zeck: www.therobotspajamas.com/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-punisher-opposing-daredevil-spider-man-and-other-marvel-heroes/
darth g0ldaR Ha! While my crackpot conspiracy theory about how Donald Trump has a clone because he has mentioned talking to Puerto Ricos president, and another time mentioning talking to ”number 1” as himself in third person. Atleast the second thing you get when googling ”Barron Trump clone” isnt an article debunking it.
darth g0ldaR Dude, while I havent seen the video. The second thing that comes up is claiming that the rumor is literally coming from a satire site. While Barron Trump being a clone is a dumb idea I atleast didnt get it from the Onion.
"Hi, I'm Captain America and I approve this massage. I once was a small and weak kid until the government gave me a secret serum which gave me big muscles. So Remember kids, you can archive anything by just working hard enough“
Lol the Punisher trying to kill someone for throwing a newspaper away, and then trying to kill a Guy passing a red light while saying "another crime!" immediately after is absolutely hilarious. I have no words to describe how dumb and farsical it is to reduce the Punisher to an intolerant lunatic.
Cloak and Dagger's powers had some serious downsides as well. Yes, they were derived from illicit drugs, but the characters were never shown as beneficiaries of having been exposed to those drugs. They continued to be victims, even as they were able to draw something useful from what had been done to them. Cloak and Dagger were cursed and found a way to live with it. The drug use was never portrayed as a positive influence, so I don't understand why anyone would have moral qualms about it.
That is a good point. Cloak in particular does have a type of curse. But I don't think Dagger is presented that way most of the time. My issue is with the execution of the idea. I think it can work but hasn't been written carefully enough.
Wrath Oranos Well, it seems that some people think that any mention of drugs, even if negative, somehow glorifies them. I guess they prefer to be an ostrich with its head in the sand on this subject.
CorbCorbin Yes, he could, making the two even more entwined. And interestingly, Tyrone's need to feed on the "light" of living beings took on an almost addiction-like quality. That's what I love about these two characters, they are very deep and complex.
@@truefanforum3273 watch a few of his vids and it is obvious that he is the typical leftist do gooder yall yanks have plenty of, and I myself would classify me slightly on the left kinda funny that he is this trope critique guy but he himself fills the trope of fedora tipping nice guy to a T everything remotely dark or edgy is too much for this man child
I like how the TV show for Cloak & Dagger changes their origins slightly. Instead of the drug storyline (eventhough Tandy is seen doing drugs), they get their powers from a chemical spill at Roxxon. They also change the location from New York to New Orleans. I actually kinda like the TV show origin better than the comic one. I'm interested in seeing how they handle their costumes in season 2.
@@slothbaby2104 The Punisher misses doesn't he? You would think no ones heard of warning shots from a, what is that a H&K 33? Anyway warning shots from an assault rifle for littering is perfectly reasonable, happens all the time and that's why no one litters anymore. Look at his skill as he literally shoots circles around them. I am more concerned with the cabie who seeing someone open fire in the street ahead decides to drive towards him instead of turning at the light.
Great episode! Appreciate your shout out to Bill Mantlo and his contributions to comics. I'm interested to watch the new Cloak and Dagger series and see what direction they take on updating that story to apply today.
"Cloak and Dagger" were my favorite super hero team back in the 90's. I absolutely loved them. It's a crime that they never caught on or got a fan base beyond a cult following. I think the problem was that Marvel used them a lot as a "PSA comic". "Don't do drugs kids!", etc.. and I think that turned a lot of potential readers off in the era of "The Punisher" who was, "Kill everyone who gets in my way!!!!". I remember reading that someone was working on making a Cloak and Dagger TV show sometime in the 90's, during that time when Xena, Hercules, and Mutant X was on TV, but it dropped off the radar, falling into development hell. I think that these characters, especially NOW would be the perfect characters to make a big comeback into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They're a huge untapped gem.
Yeah, they did sort of become an anti-drug PSA type of comic in the 90s which is weird since they're clearly stone-cold killers in the 80s. Their new live action show, ostensibly part of the MCU, debuts on Freeform on June 7th.
C&D was born out of Nancy Reagan's "Just Say NO" era of the '80's. It was common to see posters and the "program" of "Just Say No" at school. It was one of the first programs to not just say "drugs are bad", but also, "clean is cool." So, I guess Marvel jumped in to ride the wave? The timing was perfect, though.
I love Bill Mantlo's work. He was just fantastic with a wonderfully lyrical style. It is such a shame what happened to him. Thankfully, IDW puts an add for his foundation in ROM and the Micronauts comics. And actually, ROM and the Micronauts are not that hard to find. The two comic shops I frequent have plenty of back issues of both. Such great reads.
Patrick Owens And he deserves to be applauded for the care he gives his brother. It's sad, but some people will basically abandon their relatives when they are severely hurt or grow ill. Or dump them in some sort of home. He is an example of a good brother.
True Fan Forum Absolutely. There are good people out there and what Michael does for his brother proves it. Bill was responsible for developing a ton of good characters. He is a legend.
Your videos are always so informative when it comes to the history of comics, you present a lot of behind the scenes and/or otherwise obscure facts that are always pertinent or interesting, and presented in a professional manner. I appreciate your efforts and always look forward to your new videos and enjoy looking through your archived videos.
I loved Cloak & Dagger. I loved the spiritual elements of their powers. I loved the bond they shared. And I hated how every male character they met was obsessed with Dagger and wanted to get her away from Cloak. This was what ruined their solo comic. Then joining Strange Tales, they became mystical and ruined their powers. The mutant misfit misadventures, I was there for it all. The problem was Cloak. Tyrone had no incentive to become normal again. As Cloak, he was powerful, couldn't be hurt (most of the time), super strong, and could teleport anywhere he wanted. But because he couldn't control the hunger for spiritual light, he needed Dagger to sate his hunger or risk killing people. Tyrone has a speech impediment, his studder, which makes it hard to communicate or demonstrate his intelligence. So Tyrone doesn't want to go back, but Tandy does. Her rich white girl world is almost ideal and it was only a misunderstanding that caused her to runaway. She only stays with Cloak out of obligation because if their shared origin. They should have given her a negative consequence for overflowing with light energy. Make her only feel "normal" when with Cloak, because he absorbs her excess energy. But early on, they fixated on making every guy a creeper and wanted Dagger for themselves. This pushed Cloak to expand their mission just to keep her close. That was the best part of these stories. These two kids were abducted and poisoned and ultimately cursed with Superpowers that created a dependence between them, like the drugs they were shot up with. They took it upon themselves to fight against the types of criminals that did this to them to save others from a terrible fate. The sex trade, drugs, kidnappers, soul stealers, and corrupters of children. It's not due to a lack of material. Just a lack of ideas. If they had just given Dagger a dependence on Cloak, then when people tried to break them up, it wouldn't work. Then they could have focused on better plots. I thought a plot where Dagger shows Cloak the brighter side of life, i.e. children playing, fields of flowers, puppies, etc. It was always a one way street with Cloak trying to keep Dagger with him, because he needed her. And that's why it ultimately failed.
It’s currently 5 AM for me and I should be asleep since I’ve only had 4 hours of sleep... But there’s a new Comic Tropes episode and those always make me feel good.
Their story in comic book was better than 90% of Iron man F4 and Xmen comics and 90%better than Batman,wonderwoman,Arrow,Green Latern and 100% better story than superman
Punisher and Cloak and Dagger were definitely results of the massive crime rate in the 70s and early 80s. Absolutely out of control crime, drugs, and utter lawlessness led to a lot of media that was either revenge fantasies like Punisher, the Dark Knight Returns, and the Death Wish movies, or gangland stories like The Warriors, Escape from New York, and Cloak and Dagger. In the 21st century, the world those stories live in is thankfully hard to imagine. As an aside, I think that crime rate in our childhood is why we Gen Xers have been a generation of terrified parents, bubble wrapping our kids, tracking their every move, and letting them be indoor kids where we don’t have to worry so much while Gen Z turns into a depressed, isolated, anxious generation with no in person social skills (to the extant that this is true, it is our [Gen X] fault for failing as parents. The economy is our parents fault, sneeze on them.)
Always wondered where Cloak and Dagger came from. Interesting. Actually if I were Dagger I'd do random acts of kindness rather than open a drug rehab centre - it would be too suspicious if she overtly cured people by the hundreds. I think getting powers from drugs can work with the right angle. It's ironic at best so that's always an interesting discussion, but since it's happened already, using their powers with gratitude and a mission of rectitude makes sense - after all, they were given an inexplicable gift of not only life, but superpowers, instead of death. They are kind of a pair of shamans who have cheated death and so gain new life and insight, and should no longer fear death the same way. Oh, I wouldn't call C&D dumb - they have lacked a great headline story, but in themselves they look good and they definitely have a story that could be fleshed out. Thanks for telling us more about them.
I've always been a fan of Cloak & Dagger. They have great looks, powers, and personalities. I hope the TV show works out because they deserve a bigger fan base and attention.
Give them a read. _Definitely_ worth it if you like weird sci-fi inspired stuff and the artwork was pretty darn good, too, with Michael Golden (among others) on Micronauts and Sal Buscema on ROM respectively.
Oddly enough I am currently reading the Cloak and Dagger Shadows and Light graphic novel which has all the stories you've just mentioned. I've actually always been a fan of them but I do agree they don't have any of those epic remarkable story arcs. I tried to think of them as mutants that had latent powers that came about because of the synthetic drugs in their systems and that's why they survived. But I've never read anything to support my theory....
I'm pretty sure there's a Cloak and Dagger story in the 90s that explicitly states the drugs activated their latent mutant powers. The covers of their book began to carry the slogan: "The Mutant Misadventures of:" above the title.
twigstudios No problem, just agreeing with Skunkape. I've always enjoyed Cloak and Dagger, and I'm always happy to see them, and share them with others. I think they were members around the time of Utopia, possibly Siege and that era, but I can't be certain. Thank goodness for Google and Yahoo.
This is hilarious! And totally spot on! I'm so delighted to have found your channel, and just subscribed. :D My brother had the Punisher armory comic and the Cloak & Dagger, Punisher and Spidey crossover when we were kids. (We read and collected a ton of comics in the 90s growing up!) He was obsessed with the Armory one showcasing all those guns, and showed it to any cousin or friend who would come over. As for the C&D crossover, we could see there were things that were off with Punisher's behavior and the overly campy writing even though we were only 10 and 11. So funny to hear someone else talk about it after so many years! Also heard you mention your anxiety and depression in another vid, and wanted to just let you know you are awesome, and hope things feel better for you soon. I suffer from chronic health issues and they have given me some anxiety and depression, and while it never goes away for me, it can be managed on a day to day basis. My own cozy channel has let me have a distracting outlet, and I think what you are doing with your channel is rare and informative and funny and special, so I hope to see you thrive in every way! (And I'd love to do a collab vid with you if you are ever interested, since I grew up with many of the comic books you discuss.) wishing you much joy, health, and epic art adventures, hajra
Another cool vid, Chris! I'm a fan of Cloak and Dagger and have been ever since I read their first appearance in Spectacular Spider-Man and their Limited Series. I was fan of Leonardi and Austin's interpretation of the characters. I was pumped for the TV show but I'm kind of losing steam on the show. I'm saddened to hear of Bill Mantlo's health as he wrote a lot of the titles I read in the 80's and was a huge part of my childhood comicbook entertainment. That was some cool fan art this week! Thanks for posting!
One possible take on Cloak & Dagger could be that they were mutants and those specific synthetic drugs or the stress they the caused in their bodies essentially activated those mutant genes that gave Tandy and Tyrone their powers.
Bill Mantlo was a visionary. His writing, along with the artwork of Herb Trimpe *(RIP)* & Sal Buscema, made *The Incredible Hulk* comic one of the top sellers in the 70s and 80s. He took one tacky looking toy and created *Rom: Spaceknight,* again with Buscema. Same with *Micronauts.* So sad when I heard what happened to him when he almost died from a hit and run in 1992.
I've always thought C&D had enormous popular potential. I don't know what they've done with them in the recent tv series, but of all the Marvel characters, they're the ones I'd most like to take a shot at writing. I was under the impression that in a retcon they explain that they are mutants (like everyone in the Marvel Universe) and their powers were triggered by the drug experiment, not caused by it. Either way though, what I think is really the core of the characters' dynamic is the relationship they have and Cloak's dependency on Dagger's light.
Don't even joke Chris! Stay above the influence...of high fructose corn syrup. P.s I just turned 25 and this was the first video I clicked. Keep up the good work, I love your videos. Your channel teaches me so much about comic book writers. Thanks.
I know this is an old video, but hasn't their origin been retconned to the drugs just activating their latent mutant abilities? I love your channel Chris. Keep it up, sir.
Great video! Thank you! I always wondered why Cloak & Dagger never made it, even though I loved the characters right from the beginning, since I discovered them on the pages of Spider-Man. I remember having this teenage infatuation with Dagger. Probably had something to do with her costume. Anyway, thank you again.
Been going on a total Miles Morales trip recently and while I've never read a 616 C&D story, I really like the ultimate tie ins in Miles' stories. How they designed their relationship is quite well designed and I actually really like their origin which compared to 616 comics I think made a lot more sense in a comic book science kinda way. Was sad to see they didn't get a mention.
While I certainly cannot argue that Cloak and Dagger have had any great stories, they are still a personal favorite of mine. Just the name alone caught my attention when I first got into comics in the early 80's. It's very kick ass name which also makes for a conveniently great title. Then the actual design of their characters always looked way cool to me. And I actually liked the idea of the origin. It was a bit dark and street centered. Which was why I ended up liking mostly Marvel first. Along with the likes of Punisher, Daredevil, Ghost Rider, X-men, Hulk and others like them. I always preferred the darker anti-hero initially. And while I can now enjoy just about any type of super hero story, the "anti-hero" quality in many of Marvels characters got me into liking the whole super hero genre altogether. Cloak and Dagger fit quite nicely in that category to me, so while they may forever be c-listers I always have a soft spot for their characters. They would make for perfect Marvel Knight/Max material. They may not have had the greatest of stories, but there is a blueprint for potential.
Oh and I finally got a complete run of ROM. I have a bunch of issues I need for Micronauts, but I'm pretty close to finishing it if I get back to working on that.
Your videos are always so well research and fun! Huge respect! I was listening to a podcast about pop culture the other day and get angry at how bad it was. During the podcast it kind of seemed like they were reading the most basic information from a random site and didn't necessarily see the original work at all because they kept making mistakes and they didn't correct each other:/. When I watch YOUR videos I always learn something new! Cheers!
Although they have got around the Space Knight hurdle without referencing the Rom license, Marvel never mentions that Rom was the one who convinced Rogue to take another path instead of being a villain. I love Bill Mantlo's run, I have every issue of Rom in storage somewhere. Great X-Men crossover in issues #17 & 18 with art by Sal Buscema & Al Milgrom with covers by Frank Miller. The Rogue hero turn are in issues #31 and 32.
I'm not a toy collector, but I do have every issue of ROM. I still think it's great! The cyborg origin, the battle against the dire wraiths, the tragedy of him being misunderstood on Earth while steadily fighting for humanity.. excellent writing. A shame about Mantlo. He is highly underrated.
I really like your channel and I just wanted to put it out in the universe that I would enjoy a comic troupes for Booster Gold and talk about how Dan Jurgens how different the interpretations of Booster are.
Cloak and Dagger was never something I was interested in till I got the app. I ended up going on a deep dive and I feel like there was a lot they could have done with them it was super interesting!
My pride and joy from when I was a kid was my complete run of Rom Spaceknight comic books. The first one I ever had was the haunted house one with Dr.Strange and I was just hooked on the character. A friend of mine even gave me his Rom Spaceknight action figure doll because I was such a big Rom fan.
This Punisher almost out crazies The Question, Mr. A, AND Rorschach. Talk about a coffee klatch from hell. Also, thanks for the Bill Mantlo profile. It's amazing how many comics I remember from childhood had his name on them (child of the 70s-80s here.)
Very late to the comments on this one, but I'll post anyway . . . In regards to the origin story. I think it's good in that it very neatly combines C&Ds origins, their powers, and their motivations. It's narratively efficient, which is good when introducing characters who weren't promised much exposure. I think the issue is more the mixed message that comes with gaining their superpowers from drugs. Even dangerous drugs that were forced on them. Like, the nearest parallel is probably the way that Captain America skirts the Super Soldier Serum being analagous to steroids. But in Captain Roger's case, being a soldier who volunteered in order to serve his country, and given the origins of the Serum, it was much easier to recast his empowering as a medical procedure.
I really like Cloak and Dagger, but I understand the issues involved in their origin story. I would retconned a few things, like, 'the King Pin wanted to create some substance that would grant superpowers to a person so he could use it in his business or sell it to the highest bidder, but the test subjects always died. Then, he decided to test on individuals with latent mutant genes, and this had the success he wanted, but the two test subjects(Cloak and Dagger) escaped'. With something like this, it would spare the whole issue and still would fit their story without changing much. I hope I can see more stories with them.
Coincidentally, the Cloak & Dagger run in Strange Adventures and later in their solo cloak and dagger (the full one, not the mini series) was one of the things that first comics that got me into the genre. I liked it, and think it holds up better than the original spider man appearences and the mini series
I’d love to hear/ watch your thoughts on Marvel’s New Universe from the late 80s. So much potential, so many great story hooks, cut short too soon. I loved DP7 (if you google it you should probably include words like Comic and New Universe - the name has not aged well!) and the approach to a version of Earth that was just getting Superpowers instead of having them for a century or more.
I've always had a soft spot for Cloak and Dagger because they appeared in Spider-Man and Venom: Maximum Carnage for the SNES, one of my earliest childhood memories that actually got me into reading more comics.
I always find it funny that Marvel comics never accurately portray one aspect of Kingpin’s character: everyone is probably better off, if Kingpin is left in place. The power vacuum left in his wake would surely start a gang war on the streets of NYC. Yes, Fisk is despicable, but he’s almost certainly better than the alternative.
I owned this one (I think I gave it to my little cousin). I liked them and was always surprised to barely see them in other stories, since they were quite powerful (at least potentially).
1. Bill Mantlo absolutely had the right idea about the Punisher. The execution might have been lacking, but yeah the Punisher _should_ be portrayed as a maniac whose actions cause more damage than they help anything. It actually tracks pretty well with how things work in the real world. 2. Spider-Man should just wipe the floor with the Kingpin. It's funny how Spidey has a ton of enemies that should be really easy for him to beat in a fight (Doc Ock shouldn't be able to take a Spider-Man punch; heck, even guys like Rhino and Scorpion, whose powers come entirely from their costume, should go down with a punch to the jaw. Add the Vulture, etc). I guess he holds back so much that he ends up handicapping himself to an extreme degree.
For me, if I had to write them and make them interesting I would first explain that their powers aren't from the drugs but that the drugs activated their power due to the deadly side effects of it. That way its not a "You got powers from street drugs" thing but a "Your powers saved you from dying" thing. I would then make them intelligent in the use of their powers both in combat and outside it, taking your idea where Dagger could easily cure people of their addictions so she'd actually do that and Cloak would use his powers in some way to also help, likely teleporting people in danger to safety instantly, quickly removing people in record speed and other smart stuff. I would still have them go after drug dealers as well and basically just make them very proactive in stopping drug abuse and crime on top of regular crime. I'd also explore the concept of their powers since they get it from alternate dimensions so I would actually go into what that meant and why these dimensions exist and why they can tap into it for their powers. Basically just alter the origin a bit, make them incredibly intelligent and helpful with their powers and make their goals align with their established motives in a realistic way that makes them heroic in various fronts while adding interesting lore to their characters that also expand the Marvel Universe since other characters use the Lightforce and Darkforce themselves. You have cool looking characters with cool looking and op powers and given the current trend of overly political comics, these two would actually make sense for a comic talking about drug abuse so it seems like the best time to start using them.
" ... But they've never really had a great story. " They've had a few good/great stories ... but they seem best-suited for guest appearances and a mini-series or a standalone graphic novel. Nothing wrong with that. A character doesn't have to star in 20 different comics every month to be "good" ...
My understanding was that they had dormant super powers that saved them from dying upon taking the drugs. The other ones did not die--because they did not have super powers that were never set off. Think of it like a mixture of what happened with The Hulk (as it seems it was not the Gamma Rays that gave him that form--that form was always in him, and came out to protect him from the Gamma Rays)... and the Killbrew project.
I picked my knife out at Ranger Joe's after graduating Airborne School at Fort Benning Georgia with help from the Punishers Armory...2? Cold Steel Recon Tonto. All black.
I remember in the late 80s one of his special issues a scene where Castle had been playing with weapons that the writer was considering for including in Punishers kit, and it was the springblade knives and Castle had punched holes through the guys computer and broke other things on the guys desk. And at the time i didnt know exactly that they were a real thing, and funny that in the 90s (or 2000s?)there was the special forces type fiction books series called Springblade i think and the good Punisher movie they had Castle using a springblade knife to save himself from getting shot by the assassin after Castle crashed his car. Which i thought was a cool call-back to that comicbook panel.
I'm glad the show altered the origins and applications of their powers the way they did, while still touching on some of the themes of their comic origins.
ROM and Micronauts were utterly bizarre and delightful. I deeply hope marvel can regain the rights to Bug (a Micronaut and occasional Guardian of the Galaxy) for future GOTG movies. Those titles seemed like they were so unsupervised that the stories could go completely sideways. Some of the artwork was great, and some of the concepts rivaled the weirdness of Dr. Strange.
Somebody probably already mentioned this but... The Punisher was attacking people who litter or run the red light in the mentioned issue because he was also under the influence of a drug and his judgement was messy.
Or for an even closer analogue, the Super Soldier Serum - which only works right on a very few people, and kills or at least has serious side effects on most.
When were they in 1602? I don't remember them being in the Gaiman story, was it one of the sequels? I'd really like to know, I'm a bit of a Cloak and Dagger completionist and collect all their stories.
Oh sweet! I actually own the paperback collection of the Angela series because it was on a discount at a local comic con. I haven't read it yet, awesome to know I already have this Cloak and Dagger appearance without even realizing it haha
I know this is out of your purview, but man would I love to hear your thoughts on the Cloak and Dagger tv show. I really feel like they fixed their origin story and added depth to their powers.
Spot on. I like the characters, but I never bought into the drugs as the source of their powers - and yes - Dagger would be better if she opened a medical clinic to use her powers to free people of their addiction. Thanks for sating what everyone is thinking.
Wow dude just gotta say I used heroin for about 5 years and it absolutely destroyed my life and I’ll never repair I understand that normal people don’t really feel the gravity of seeing a fit being swung around but coming to watch my favourite comic channel and seeing that at the very start sort of shook me.. and I feel for anyone else that’s in my shoes that has that same experience. obviously you wouldn’t do it again but perhaps something to think about.
Man oh man, if i was a comic writer, I would love to do a Cloak and Dagger ongoing leveling up their characters to be actual secret agents and make a Spiral like organization. Well, maybe, i just love Cloaks design, dagger i feel is a mixed bag but they would make some cool spies, cloak with a black striped pin stripe tuxedo and dagger rocking a white female suit. But hey, maybe one day someone will run with my idea.
Part of this is going to sound horrible, given modern sensibilities, but I was a kid and still reading comics when Cloak and Dagger first came out (1982), and my friends and I immediately chalked the whole idea up to shock value. PLEASE remember it was 1982, okay, but it was this black street kid involved with shootings getting involved with a 16 year old white girl through drugs. We all saw this sort of subconscious racism to it and waited for them to have some sort of romantic involvement so all the parents would roll their eyes in their head and have seizures of Pentecostal Fire and demand the book be pulled. For its time, it seemed to be walking a razor's edge on a lot of fronts. The creators seemed to be embracing social changes with a back-handed, subconscious warning. That was how the late 70s/early 80s still was.
Cloak and Dagger's were initially supposed to be supernatural in that they died and came back to life to wreak vengeance on evil. I HAD the comic when they first appeared as kids and when ever they would teleport you could clearly see a cross. Dagger represented light and angels, Cloak represented darkness and demons. Marvel later made them mutants, but the supernatural explains their very specifc powers better and why Dagger's powers would cure addiction.
although i've liked a lot of Bill Mantlo's work such as ROM and The Micronuats i've never much been into Cloak and Dagger they're fine as supporting characters such as in the pages of Spider Man but their solo stories even when written by Mantlo just have never really grabbed me. good job on this video it's very insightful and comprehensive.
For folks curious about how the Punisher is willing to kill even litterers here, this link details all of Punisher's guest appearances which helps put it into context. Basically, here in 1983 he was written as having finally gone crazy. This was retconned three years later in Punisher's first limited series by writer Steven Grant and artist Mike Zeck:
www.therobotspajamas.com/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-punisher-opposing-daredevil-spider-man-and-other-marvel-heroes/
darth g0ldaR BARRON TRUMP IS JUST A CLONE OF DONALD.
darth g0ldaR Probably more than you have for Obamas marriage and kids being fake.
darth g0ldaR Ha! While my crackpot conspiracy theory about how Donald Trump has a clone because he has mentioned talking to Puerto Ricos president, and another time mentioning talking to ”number 1” as himself in third person. Atleast the second thing you get when googling ”Barron Trump clone” isnt an article debunking it.
darth g0ldaR Oh wait, this all came from a satire website. Missed that.
But then you can ride along with the clone theory cant you? Atleast as a joke?
darth g0ldaR Dude, while I havent seen the video. The second thing that comes up is claiming that the rumor is literally coming from a satire site. While Barron Trump being a clone is a dumb idea I atleast didnt get it from the Onion.
"Hi, kids! We're Cloak and Dagger! We got our powers through drugs! So... don't do drugs!"
"Hi, I'm Captain America and I approve this massage. I once was a small and weak kid until the government gave me a secret serum which gave me big muscles. So Remember kids, you can archive anything by just working hard enough“
@@cavareenvius7886 "I also did meth that one time but ignore that."
Does that make them EcstaC-listers?
@@cavareenvius7886 massage and archive 🤣 I knew what you meant..but still made for a good laugh
💀💀💀💀💀
Lol the Punisher trying to kill someone for throwing a newspaper away, and then trying to kill a Guy passing a red light while saying "another crime!" immediately after is absolutely hilarious.
I have no words to describe how dumb and farsical it is to reduce the Punisher to an intolerant lunatic.
It's more like Judge Death.
himode nah he'd nuke the city. Three strike's and we gotta start from scratch 😂😂
@@pickedceasar1216 the ole' yahweh method of judging the guilty..
J P Frank Castle is one of the many heads of YHWH 😂
Punisher himself is a criminal. He should shoot himself.
Cloak and Dagger's powers had some serious downsides as well. Yes, they were derived from illicit drugs, but the characters were never shown as beneficiaries of having been exposed to those drugs. They continued to be victims, even as they were able to draw something useful from what had been done to them. Cloak and Dagger were cursed and found a way to live with it. The drug use was never portrayed as a positive influence, so I don't understand why anyone would have moral qualms about it.
That is a good point. Cloak in particular does have a type of curse. But I don't think Dagger is presented that way most of the time. My issue is with the execution of the idea. I think it can work but hasn't been written carefully enough.
Wrath Oranos Well, it seems that some people think that any mention of drugs, even if negative, somehow glorifies them. I guess they prefer to be an ostrich with its head in the sand on this subject.
I thought at one point Tyron could feed the dark energy with Dagger's light.
CorbCorbin Yes, he could, making the two even more entwined. And interestingly, Tyrone's need to feed on the "light" of living beings took on an almost addiction-like quality. That's what I love about these two characters, they are very deep and complex.
@@truefanforum3273 watch a few of his vids and it is obvious that he is the typical leftist do gooder yall yanks have plenty of, and I myself would classify me slightly on the left
kinda funny that he is this trope critique guy but he himself fills the trope of fedora tipping nice guy to a T
everything remotely dark or edgy is too much for this man child
I like how the TV show for Cloak & Dagger changes their origins slightly. Instead of the drug storyline (eventhough Tandy is seen doing drugs), they get their powers from a chemical spill at Roxxon. They also change the location from New York to New Orleans. I actually kinda like the TV show origin better than the comic one. I'm interested in seeing how they handle their costumes in season 2.
The Punisher shooting at people for littering reminds me of that scene in RoboCop 2 when he shot around a guy who was smoking.
It's more like Judge Death.
At lest Robo Cop was not trying to kill the smoking guy
@@slothbaby2104 that's still reckless endangerment and assault on his part.
@@jacobstaten2366 yeah
@@slothbaby2104 The Punisher misses doesn't he? You would think no ones heard of warning shots from a, what is that a H&K 33? Anyway warning shots from an assault rifle for littering is perfectly reasonable, happens all the time and that's why no one litters anymore. Look at his skill as he literally shoots circles around them. I am more concerned with the cabie who seeing someone open fire in the street ahead decides to drive towards him instead of turning at the light.
Oh hi there! You caught me watching a 4 year old episode and loving it. Cloak and Dagger are actually some of my favorite characters ever.
Great episode! Appreciate your shout out to Bill Mantlo and his contributions to comics. I'm interested to watch the new Cloak and Dagger series and see what direction they take on updating that story to apply today.
"Cloak and Dagger" were my favorite super hero team back in the 90's. I absolutely loved them. It's a crime that they never caught on or got a fan base beyond a cult following. I think the problem was that Marvel used them a lot as a "PSA comic". "Don't do drugs kids!", etc.. and I think that turned a lot of potential readers off in the era of "The Punisher" who was, "Kill everyone who gets in my way!!!!". I remember reading that someone was working on making a Cloak and Dagger TV show sometime in the 90's, during that time when Xena, Hercules, and Mutant X was on TV, but it dropped off the radar, falling into development hell. I think that these characters, especially NOW would be the perfect characters to make a big comeback into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They're a huge untapped gem.
Yeah, they did sort of become an anti-drug PSA type of comic in the 90s which is weird since they're clearly stone-cold killers in the 80s. Their new live action show, ostensibly part of the MCU, debuts on Freeform on June 7th.
There is a Cloak and Dagger TV show
C&D was born out of Nancy Reagan's "Just Say NO" era of the '80's. It was common to see posters and the "program" of "Just Say No" at school. It was one of the first programs to not just say "drugs are bad", but also, "clean is cool." So, I guess Marvel jumped in to ride the wave? The timing was perfect, though.
I love Bill Mantlo's work. He was just fantastic with a wonderfully lyrical style. It is such a shame what happened to him. Thankfully, IDW puts an add for his foundation in ROM and the Micronauts comics. And actually, ROM and the Micronauts are not that hard to find. The two comic shops I frequent have plenty of back issues of both. Such great reads.
True Fan Forum Yes very tragic, but his brother really goes to bat for him.
Patrick Owens And he deserves to be applauded for the care he gives his brother. It's sad, but some people will basically abandon their relatives when they are severely hurt or grow ill. Or dump them in some sort of home. He is an example of a good brother.
True Fan Forum Absolutely. There are good people out there and what Michael does for his brother proves it. Bill was responsible for developing a ton of good characters. He is a legend.
Patrick Owens I agree. Every time I see a story written by Mantlo I instantly perk up. Absolutely fantastic talent.
Your videos are always so informative when it comes to the history of comics, you present a lot of behind the scenes and/or otherwise obscure facts that are always pertinent or interesting, and presented in a professional manner. I appreciate your efforts and always look forward to your new videos and enjoy looking through your archived videos.
I loved Cloak & Dagger. I loved the spiritual elements of their powers. I loved the bond they shared. And I hated how every male character they met was obsessed with Dagger and wanted to get her away from Cloak. This was what ruined their solo comic. Then joining Strange Tales, they became mystical and ruined their powers. The mutant misfit misadventures, I was there for it all. The problem was Cloak. Tyrone had no incentive to become normal again. As Cloak, he was powerful, couldn't be hurt (most of the time), super strong, and could teleport anywhere he wanted. But because he couldn't control the hunger for spiritual light, he needed Dagger to sate his hunger or risk killing people. Tyrone has a speech impediment, his studder, which makes it hard to communicate or demonstrate his intelligence. So Tyrone doesn't want to go back, but Tandy does. Her rich white girl world is almost ideal and it was only a misunderstanding that caused her to runaway. She only stays with Cloak out of obligation because if their shared origin. They should have given her a negative consequence for overflowing with light energy. Make her only feel "normal" when with Cloak, because he absorbs her excess energy. But early on, they fixated on making every guy a creeper and wanted Dagger for themselves. This pushed Cloak to expand their mission just to keep her close. That was the best part of these stories. These two kids were abducted and poisoned and ultimately cursed with Superpowers that created a dependence between them, like the drugs they were shot up with. They took it upon themselves to fight against the types of criminals that did this to them to save others from a terrible fate. The sex trade, drugs, kidnappers, soul stealers, and corrupters of children. It's not due to a lack of material. Just a lack of ideas. If they had just given Dagger a dependence on Cloak, then when people tried to break them up, it wouldn't work. Then they could have focused on better plots. I thought a plot where Dagger shows Cloak the brighter side of life, i.e. children playing, fields of flowers, puppies, etc. It was always a one way street with Cloak trying to keep Dagger with him, because he needed her. And that's why it ultimately failed.
It’s currently 5 AM for me and I should be asleep since I’ve only had 4 hours of sleep...
But there’s a new Comic Tropes episode and those always make me feel good.
Don't do drugs kids
Unless it gives you superpowers, in that case, use plenty of drugs!
i agree cloak and dagger are good characters but it's like you said they don't really have good stories
Their story in comic book was better than 90% of Iron man F4 and Xmen comics and 90%better than Batman,wonderwoman,Arrow,Green Latern and 100% better story than superman
Go watch the cloak and dagger tv show
@@ChrisAtheist
Lol what are you even talking about?
Punisher and Cloak and Dagger were definitely results of the massive crime rate in the 70s and early 80s. Absolutely out of control crime, drugs, and utter lawlessness led to a lot of media that was either revenge fantasies like Punisher, the Dark Knight Returns, and the Death Wish movies, or gangland stories like The Warriors, Escape from New York, and Cloak and Dagger. In the 21st century, the world those stories live in is thankfully hard to imagine.
As an aside, I think that crime rate in our childhood is why we Gen Xers have been a generation of terrified parents, bubble wrapping our kids, tracking their every move, and letting them be indoor kids where we don’t have to worry so much while Gen Z turns into a depressed, isolated, anxious generation with no in person social skills (to the extant that this is true, it is our [Gen X] fault for failing as parents. The economy is our parents fault, sneeze on them.)
Always wondered where Cloak and Dagger came from. Interesting. Actually if I were Dagger I'd do random acts of kindness rather than open a drug rehab centre - it would be too suspicious if she overtly cured people by the hundreds. I think getting powers from drugs can work with the right angle. It's ironic at best so that's always an interesting discussion, but since it's happened already, using their powers with gratitude and a mission of rectitude makes sense - after all, they were given an inexplicable gift of not only life, but superpowers, instead of death. They are kind of a pair of shamans who have cheated death and so gain new life and insight, and should no longer fear death the same way.
Oh, I wouldn't call C&D dumb - they have lacked a great headline story, but in themselves they look good and they definitely have a story that could be fleshed out. Thanks for telling us more about them.
I mainly remember Cloak & Dagger from the snes game Maximum Carnage, always wondered why I never saw much of them since then
I've always been a fan of Cloak & Dagger. They have great looks, powers, and personalities. I hope the TV show works out because they deserve a bigger fan base and attention.
Cancelled
Cloak and Dagger always looked cooler than they actually were. I just don't like all the drugs and religious stuff that's in all their solo books.
Your sarcasm has earned a sub from me. great stuff my man
I ALWAYS see ROM and Micronauts in the back issue bins.
Joshua Kolling Buy ‘em.
I think I will. The covers great. I always think "WTF is this stuff. Where is Spiderman and Wolverine?"
Give them a read. _Definitely_ worth it if you like weird sci-fi inspired stuff and the artwork was pretty darn good, too, with Michael Golden (among others) on Micronauts and Sal Buscema on ROM respectively.
Joshua Kolling I had the original run of both, they're great, wish I still had them.
skunkape they both deserve to be collected in trades, the Marvel runs and IDW both.
Nice shout out for Bill's wellbeing. Will donate when I can. Keep up the good work mate.
Oddly enough I am currently reading the Cloak and Dagger Shadows and Light graphic novel which has all the stories you've just mentioned. I've actually always been a fan of them but I do agree they don't have any of those epic remarkable story arcs. I tried to think of them as mutants that had latent powers that came about because of the synthetic drugs in their systems and that's why they survived. But I've never read anything to support my theory....
I'm pretty sure there's a Cloak and Dagger story in the 90s that explicitly states the drugs activated their latent mutant powers. The covers of their book began to carry the slogan: "The Mutant Misadventures of:" above the title.
Thanks I'll check that out...more for me to read
twigstudios I agree with Skunkape, they were made latent mutants at some point. They even joined the X-Men, which pretty much cinches it.
True Fan Forum thanks for the info... I have to catch up on my reading
twigstudios No problem, just agreeing with Skunkape. I've always enjoyed Cloak and Dagger, and I'm always happy to see them, and share them with others. I think they were members around the time of Utopia, possibly Siege and that era, but I can't be certain. Thank goodness for Google and Yahoo.
This is hilarious! And totally spot on! I'm so delighted to have found your channel, and just subscribed. :D My brother had the Punisher armory comic and the Cloak & Dagger, Punisher and Spidey crossover when we were kids. (We read and collected a ton of comics in the 90s growing up!) He was obsessed with the Armory one showcasing all those guns, and showed it to any cousin or friend who would come over. As for the C&D crossover, we could see there were things that were off with Punisher's behavior and the overly campy writing even though we were only 10 and 11. So funny to hear someone else talk about it after so many years! Also heard you mention your anxiety and depression in another vid, and wanted to just let you know you are awesome, and hope things feel better for you soon. I suffer from chronic health issues and they have given me some anxiety and depression, and while it never goes away for me, it can be managed on a day to day basis. My own cozy channel has let me have a distracting outlet, and I think what you are doing with your channel is rare and informative and funny and special, so I hope to see you thrive in every way! (And I'd love to do a collab vid with you if you are ever interested, since I grew up with many of the comic books you discuss.) wishing you much joy, health, and epic art adventures, hajra
nice art m8
Another cool vid, Chris! I'm a fan of Cloak and Dagger and have been ever since I read their first appearance in Spectacular Spider-Man and their Limited Series. I was fan of Leonardi and Austin's interpretation of the characters. I was pumped for the TV show but I'm kind of losing steam on the show. I'm saddened to hear of Bill Mantlo's health as he wrote a lot of the titles I read in the 80's and was a huge part of my childhood comicbook entertainment. That was some cool fan art this week! Thanks for posting!
....The punisher went a little cray here
Just a bit.
Judge Death.lol
I just found your channel and I LOVE the way you present the information on the subjects you cover.
One possible take on Cloak & Dagger could be that they were mutants and those specific synthetic drugs or the stress they the caused in their bodies essentially activated those mutant genes that gave Tandy and Tyrone their powers.
I love Bill Mantlo.
i think the show did a great job of altering the backstories. such a great show
Bill Mantlo was a visionary. His writing, along with the artwork of Herb Trimpe *(RIP)* & Sal Buscema, made *The Incredible Hulk* comic one of the top sellers in the 70s and 80s. He took one tacky looking toy and created *Rom: Spaceknight,* again with Buscema. Same with *Micronauts.* So sad when I heard what happened to him when he almost died from a hit and run in 1992.
You never cease to entertain. 😃
I've always thought C&D had enormous popular potential. I don't know what they've done with them in the recent tv series, but of all the Marvel characters, they're the ones I'd most like to take a shot at writing. I was under the impression that in a retcon they explain that they are mutants (like everyone in the Marvel Universe) and their powers were triggered by the drug experiment, not caused by it. Either way though, what I think is really the core of the characters' dynamic is the relationship they have and Cloak's dependency on Dagger's light.
Don't even joke Chris! Stay above the influence...of high fructose corn syrup. P.s I just turned 25 and this was the first video I clicked. Keep up the good work, I love your videos. Your channel teaches me so much about comic book writers. Thanks.
HetLedie Happy birthday.
skunkape thanks man. You rock.
I know this is an old video, but hasn't their origin been retconned to the drugs just activating their latent mutant abilities? I love your channel Chris. Keep it up, sir.
To me they were always epic because of their involvement in Maximum Carnage back in my formative years
Great video. Really enjoying them, been a collector of comics for 44 years now.
Great video! Thank you! I always wondered why Cloak & Dagger never made it, even though I loved the characters right from the beginning, since I discovered them on the pages of Spider-Man. I remember having this teenage infatuation with Dagger. Probably had something to do with her costume. Anyway, thank you again.
Kudos on the effort to get support for Mantlo.
Been going on a total Miles Morales trip recently and while I've never read a 616 C&D story, I really like the ultimate tie ins in Miles' stories. How they designed their relationship is quite well designed and I actually really like their origin which compared to 616 comics I think made a lot more sense in a comic book science kinda way. Was sad to see they didn't get a mention.
While I certainly cannot argue that Cloak and Dagger have had any great stories, they are still a personal favorite of mine. Just the name alone caught my attention when I first got into comics in the early 80's. It's very kick ass name which also makes for a conveniently great title. Then the actual design of their characters always looked way cool to me. And I actually liked the idea of the origin. It was a bit dark and street centered. Which was why I ended up liking mostly Marvel first. Along with the likes of Punisher, Daredevil, Ghost Rider, X-men, Hulk and others like them. I always preferred the darker anti-hero initially. And while I can now enjoy just about any type of super hero story, the "anti-hero" quality in many of Marvels characters got me into liking the whole super hero genre altogether. Cloak and Dagger fit quite nicely in that category to me, so while they may forever be c-listers I always have a soft spot for their characters. They would make for perfect Marvel Knight/Max material. They may not have had the greatest of stories, but there is a blueprint for potential.
I remember 1st got introduced to Clock and Dagger from the Maximum Carnage storyline and video game
Saw this video before but had to watch it again because i love these characters in concept but still haven't read a title yet!!!
Terry Austin wrote some nice Cloak and Dagger stories back on the late 80
Oh and I finally got a complete run of ROM. I have a bunch of issues I need for Micronauts, but I'm pretty close to finishing it if I get back to working on that.
RobotsPajamas That’s awesome! I know you’ve been working to complete ROM for a while now.
romspaceknightart.blogspot.com/ congrats on completing your collection.
I remember Cloak from Ultimate Alliance 2
Rom was quite popular in Brazil in the 1980s. We didn't actually know that it was a licensed character.
Your videos are always so well research and fun! Huge respect! I was listening to a podcast about pop culture the other day and get angry at how bad it was. During the podcast it kind of seemed like they were reading the most basic information from a random site and didn't necessarily see the original work at all because they kept making mistakes and they didn't correct each other:/. When I watch YOUR videos I always learn something new! Cheers!
Although they have got around the Space Knight hurdle without referencing the Rom license, Marvel never mentions that Rom was the one who convinced Rogue to take another path instead of being a villain. I love Bill Mantlo's run, I have every issue of Rom in storage somewhere. Great X-Men crossover in issues #17 & 18 with art by Sal Buscema & Al Milgrom with covers by Frank Miller. The Rogue hero turn are in issues #31 and 32.
I'm not a toy collector, but I do have every issue of ROM. I still think it's great! The cyborg origin, the battle against the dire wraiths, the tragedy of him being misunderstood on Earth while steadily fighting for humanity.. excellent writing. A shame about Mantlo. He is highly underrated.
I really like your channel and I just wanted to put it out in the universe that I would enjoy a comic troupes for Booster Gold and talk about how Dan Jurgens how different the interpretations of Booster are.
Okay, I'll put that in the idea file. Thanks for watching.
Cloak and Dagger was never something I was interested in till I got the app. I ended up going on a deep dive and I feel like there was a lot they could have done with them it was super interesting!
My pride and joy from when I was a kid was my complete run of Rom Spaceknight comic books. The first one I ever had was the haunted house one with Dr.Strange and I was just hooked on the character. A friend of mine even gave me his Rom Spaceknight action figure doll because I was such a big Rom fan.
This Punisher almost out crazies The Question, Mr. A, AND Rorschach. Talk about a coffee klatch from hell.
Also, thanks for the Bill Mantlo profile. It's amazing how many comics I remember from childhood had his name on them (child of the 70s-80s here.)
Best intro so far.
Very late to the comments on this one, but I'll post anyway . . .
In regards to the origin story. I think it's good in that it very neatly combines C&Ds origins, their powers, and their motivations. It's narratively efficient, which is good when introducing characters who weren't promised much exposure.
I think the issue is more the mixed message that comes with gaining their superpowers from drugs. Even dangerous drugs that were forced on them.
Like, the nearest parallel is probably the way that Captain America skirts the Super Soldier Serum being analagous to steroids. But in Captain Roger's case, being a soldier who volunteered in order to serve his country, and given the origins of the Serum, it was much easier to recast his empowering as a medical procedure.
I really like Cloak and Dagger, but I understand the issues involved in their origin story. I would retconned a few things, like, 'the King Pin wanted to create some substance that would grant superpowers to a person so he could use it in his business or sell it to the highest bidder, but the test subjects always died. Then, he decided to test on individuals with latent mutant genes, and this had the success he wanted, but the two test subjects(Cloak and Dagger) escaped'. With something like this, it would spare the whole issue and still would fit their story without changing much. I hope I can see more stories with them.
Coincidentally, the Cloak & Dagger run in Strange Adventures and later in their solo cloak and dagger (the full one, not the mini series) was one of the things that first comics that got me into the genre. I liked it, and think it holds up better than the original spider man appearences and the mini series
I’d love to hear/ watch your thoughts on Marvel’s New Universe from the late 80s. So much potential, so many great story hooks, cut short too soon. I loved DP7 (if you google it you should probably include words like Comic and New Universe - the name has not aged well!) and the approach to a version of Earth that was just getting Superpowers instead of having them for a century or more.
I've always had a soft spot for Cloak and Dagger because they appeared in Spider-Man and Venom: Maximum Carnage for the SNES, one of my earliest childhood memories that actually got me into reading more comics.
I love your video you deserve more sub and more view thank you and plz keep the good work
I used to think their tandem was pretty cool when i was a kid. Too bad they never really took off. ☺️💕🇵🇭
I always find it funny that Marvel comics never accurately portray one aspect of Kingpin’s character: everyone is probably better off, if Kingpin is left in place. The power vacuum left in his wake would surely start a gang war on the streets of NYC. Yes, Fisk is despicable, but he’s almost certainly better than the alternative.
I owned this one (I think I gave it to my little cousin). I liked them and was always surprised to barely see them in other stories, since they were quite powerful (at least potentially).
1. Bill Mantlo absolutely had the right idea about the Punisher. The execution might have been lacking, but yeah the Punisher _should_ be portrayed as a maniac whose actions cause more damage than they help anything. It actually tracks pretty well with how things work in the real world.
2. Spider-Man should just wipe the floor with the Kingpin. It's funny how Spidey has a ton of enemies that should be really easy for him to beat in a fight (Doc Ock shouldn't be able to take a Spider-Man punch; heck, even guys like Rhino and Scorpion, whose powers come entirely from their costume, should go down with a punch to the jaw. Add the Vulture, etc). I guess he holds back so much that he ends up handicapping himself to an extreme degree.
Great video! Thank you...Very inspiring
Hoping for a blessed TV life. Tyrone's mind is affected by the darkness power.
I remember reading power pack where both made guest appearances on that too
I really enjoyed this series Back during the 1980s when I was a Young Teenage!😉☮️
4:20 the rain-drops hitting the newspaper from above would be very loud for people below it, so maybe it did.
I'm glad Marvel stepped up and gave Mantlo his due. Quite a decent way to go about things.
Great videos!
For me, if I had to write them and make them interesting I would first explain that their powers aren't from the drugs but that the drugs activated their power due to the deadly side effects of it. That way its not a "You got powers from street drugs" thing but a "Your powers saved you from dying" thing. I would then make them intelligent in the use of their powers both in combat and outside it, taking your idea where Dagger could easily cure people of their addictions so she'd actually do that and Cloak would use his powers in some way to also help, likely teleporting people in danger to safety instantly, quickly removing people in record speed and other smart stuff. I would still have them go after drug dealers as well and basically just make them very proactive in stopping drug abuse and crime on top of regular crime. I'd also explore the concept of their powers since they get it from alternate dimensions so I would actually go into what that meant and why these dimensions exist and why they can tap into it for their powers. Basically just alter the origin a bit, make them incredibly intelligent and helpful with their powers and make their goals align with their established motives in a realistic way that makes them heroic in various fronts while adding interesting lore to their characters that also expand the Marvel Universe since other characters use the Lightforce and Darkforce themselves. You have cool looking characters with cool looking and op powers and given the current trend of overly political comics, these two would actually make sense for a comic talking about drug abuse so it seems like the best time to start using them.
" ... But they've never really had a great story. "
They've had a few good/great stories ... but they seem best-suited for guest appearances and a mini-series or a standalone graphic novel. Nothing wrong with that. A character doesn't have to star in 20 different comics every month to be "good" ...
6:36 so true! That's always bugged me.
My understanding was that they had dormant super powers that saved them from dying upon taking the drugs. The other ones did not die--because they did not have super powers that were never set off.
Think of it like a mixture of what happened with The Hulk (as it seems it was not the Gamma Rays that gave him that form--that form was always in him, and came out to protect him from the Gamma Rays)... and the Killbrew project.
I started at around the same age as you did, basically with The Punisher and Marvel Tales runs.
Bill Mantlo...Wow! This guy's good! Omg! Thank you for turning me on to him
Your videos are fun. I gave comics up long ago, but this is a decent substitute.
I picked my knife out at Ranger Joe's after graduating Airborne School at Fort Benning Georgia with help from the Punishers Armory...2? Cold Steel Recon Tonto. All black.
I remember in the late 80s one of his special issues a scene where Castle had been playing with weapons that the writer was considering for including in Punishers kit, and it was the springblade knives and Castle had punched holes through the guys computer and broke other things on the guys desk.
And at the time i didnt know exactly that they were a real thing, and funny that in the 90s (or 2000s?)there was the special forces type fiction books series called Springblade i think and the good Punisher movie they had Castle using a springblade knife to save himself from getting shot by the assassin after Castle crashed his car.
Which i thought was a cool call-back to that comicbook panel.
Awesome show!
I'm glad the show altered the origins and applications of their powers the way they did, while still touching on some of the themes of their comic origins.
I have always thought this IP was AMAZING and hasn't gotten enough love to be given attention!!!
ROM and Micronauts were utterly bizarre and delightful. I deeply hope marvel can regain the rights to Bug (a Micronaut and occasional Guardian of the Galaxy) for future GOTG movies.
Those titles seemed like they were so unsupervised that the stories could go completely sideways. Some of the artwork was great, and some of the concepts rivaled the weirdness of Dr. Strange.
Somebody probably already mentioned this but... The Punisher was attacking people who litter or run the red light in the mentioned issue because he was also under the influence of a drug and his judgement was messy.
Good video. Just was curious what's the difference between Cloak and Dagger and their experiment and what happened in the Weapon X program?
Or for an even closer analogue, the Super Soldier Serum - which only works right on a very few people, and kills or at least has serious side effects on most.
The cloak and dagger tv show is 100x better than their comic book appearances!!!
I like the Marvel 1602 Cloak and Dagger story, but that's just a new origin, really.
When were they in 1602? I don't remember them being in the Gaiman story, was it one of the sequels? I'd really like to know, I'm a bit of a Cloak and Dagger completionist and collect all their stories.
Jamin Elvers They show up in Marguerite Bennett's Angela, Witch Hunter series. Issue #2 or #3.
Oh sweet! I actually own the paperback collection of the Angela series because it was on a discount at a local comic con. I haven't read it yet, awesome to know I already have this Cloak and Dagger appearance without even realizing it haha
I know this is out of your purview, but man would I love to hear your thoughts on the Cloak and Dagger tv show. I really feel like they fixed their origin story and added depth to their powers.
Spot on. I like the characters, but I never bought into the drugs as the source of their powers - and yes - Dagger would be better if she opened a medical clinic to use her powers to free people of their addiction. Thanks for sating what everyone is thinking.
When I was a kid, I asked my dad to pick me up a couple random Spider-Man comics from the grocery store. He brought home Spec Spidey 64 and 65.
Wow dude just gotta say I used heroin for about 5 years and it absolutely destroyed my life and I’ll never repair I understand that normal people don’t really feel the gravity of seeing a fit being swung around but coming to watch my favourite comic channel and seeing that at the very start sort of shook me.. and I feel for anyone else that’s in my shoes that has that same experience. obviously you wouldn’t do it again but perhaps something to think about.
Skunkape: @9:40? - Natural Selection (evolution) makes it work...(Cloak & Dagger origin question)
Man oh man, if i was a comic writer, I would love to do a Cloak and Dagger ongoing leveling up their characters to be actual secret agents and make a Spiral like organization. Well, maybe, i just love Cloaks design, dagger i feel is a mixed bag but they would make some cool spies, cloak with a black striped pin stripe tuxedo and dagger rocking a white female suit. But hey, maybe one day someone will run with my idea.
Part of this is going to sound horrible, given modern sensibilities, but I was a kid and still reading comics when Cloak and Dagger first came out (1982), and my friends and I immediately chalked the whole idea up to shock value. PLEASE remember it was 1982, okay, but it was this black street kid involved with shootings getting involved with a 16 year old white girl through drugs. We all saw this sort of subconscious racism to it and waited for them to have some sort of romantic involvement so all the parents would roll their eyes in their head and have seizures of Pentecostal Fire and demand the book be pulled. For its time, it seemed to be walking a razor's edge on a lot of fronts. The creators seemed to be embracing social changes with a back-handed, subconscious warning. That was how the late 70s/early 80s still was.
I really wanna see more of this version of the Punisher.
Cloak and Dagger's were initially supposed to be supernatural in that they died and came back to life to wreak vengeance on evil. I HAD the comic when they first appeared as kids and when ever they would teleport you could clearly see a cross. Dagger represented light and angels, Cloak represented darkness and demons. Marvel later made them mutants, but the supernatural explains their very specifc powers better and why Dagger's powers would cure addiction.
This might be my fav intro
although i've liked a lot of Bill Mantlo's work such as ROM and The Micronuats i've never much been into Cloak and Dagger they're fine as supporting characters such as in the pages of Spider Man but their solo stories even when written by Mantlo just have never really grabbed me. good job on this video it's very insightful and comprehensive.