I quit general aviation as an A&P because I couldn't support my family on $15 an hour. I now make $135 an hour as an electrical contractor. If you want to attract talent and keep the people you train, you have to pay them something.
I've been in aviation for 45 years. I'll talk about what no one else is willing to say. I have see the unjustifiable increases in insurance, parts, and training for years now. Younger generations cannot afford it. There are no younger folks joining aviation because greedy corporations changed aviation -- only for the wealthy now. The greed and profit expectations have reached unattainable levels, and this behavior has destroyed the industry. It pushed the average family from enjoying flight...just like many family events. Have you seen the price of MLB Baseball tickets ($65 per ticket). You cannot even enjoy a baseball game with your grandkids or child anymore. The average family cannot afford it anymore...sad.
If you pay higher pay to mechanics then you have to pass the cost on to customers and some of them will take their aircraft to Mexico where rates are cheaper
I just got my A&P and I'm really enjoying working on aircraft, I am working in a small GA shop because I vastly prefer recips to turbines. The problem, as Mike says, is that for a lot of my peers the pay is terrible. GA shops want experience but they're only paying $22-$28/hr in an area with a very high cost of living. I don't blame people for finding other professions that pay more for work that is less strenuous and which require less attention to detail. Mechs love the work, but the truth is that GA simply doesn't pay. Sadly out of the class of 19 students I graduated with. I'm guessing that only three to four of us will even get our certifications. GA will suffer as good mechanics will continue to gravitate to airlines and commercial shops where the pay and benefits are better.
John: Your story is true exactly. However, get the A&P tests, if you already know, the FAA plastic card is indefinite, same as a pilot license. Good as a degree, not as hi pay, instructor, qual inspector, AC systems are always in change. I'm retired A&PIA, line up to get the IA, Inspection Authorization ticket, added 40 hours school, learn FAR/AMT regulations. Renewal needed, every 2 years, IA required to complete FAA Annual Inspections for AC to stay in service. NASA employed with the Space Shuttle until it's retirement, A&P. look into Lycoming or Piper, building new turbo models. I get A&P offers weekly, gave my tool box to my Grandson, help my son his 17 cessna. If you can, may require moving. Work in some helicopter experience. Aviation has retired me. Good luck.
It's been like this for YEARS!!!! The pay have been absolute trash for the knowledge, liabilities, and sacrifice. I am a helicopter mechanic (20 years, twin turbine) owners have been scraping profits off our backs for years. I stopped complaining. . . 2 more months and I'm completely done with aviation maintenance. I'm opening a clothing brand.
Spot on! I am a certificate holder, A and P. And private pilot. Do not work on aircraft anymore. I make $95k repairing cement mixers. Rather work on aircraft, just can not take the pay cut.
I’m a member of AOPA since 1997 and read your article concerning this in the Sept 2020 AOPA Pilot magazine. I’m an automobile mechanic by trade. I’ve worked at the dealership level, at the independent shop level and I’ve worked a tele-diagnostic hotline for 10 years for Delphi, General Motors parts group. I’ve been out of work since March 24 of this year due to COVID cause the owner of the small independent shop I was employed at decided to close. When I saw your article I thought maybe I could try something different in the repair field such as this but the pay and time requirements to even achieve A&P status caused me to rethink this route.
I am an A&P and IA, and pilot. I also hold 4 ASE Master certifications. I work for a public transit agency. Pay approaches $34 an hour, with a state run defined benefit pension, health insurance, sick and vacation pay added on top. I don't love the job, like I love aviation, but I can't see how I can work full time in aviation until I retire. I do some avionics work and maintain a couple of friends planes to stay current. That being said I recommend the 120 hour light sport repairman maintenance course as outlined in this weeks AOPA magazine. This is absolutely the best path for you. You will be able to self supervise for 30 months, then take the A&P exam. You can be building Light Sport Aircraft in the process, and include that time toward the A&P license. Your automotive experience will be valuable. Many A&P mechanics have difficulty with electrical systems. The biggest issue is all the wires are white!
I am an A&P and an ATP. Worked in aviation for 30 years, but mostly as a Military Contractor. That paid well. Other Aviation jobs do not. I’m enrolled in a School of Health Care Sciences Program at the moment. I need to make a little more $$ before I retire.
As an A&P/IA working for a repair station I wish I could specialize in a single brand; but it’s just not sustainable for the RS. Maybe in the future if business stays good. I went from doing an annual on a 2019 SR20 to an annual on a 1955 PA-22-150. I definitely get the balance of the shop rates-lots of owners are unwilling to pay more per hour than work done on their car. Maybe it’s Mary’s preference or necessity to pay for billable hours only, but I would find a different job at that point. Not saying I am a slacker but if you expect me to show up at 8 AM and be there until 4:30 PM better pay me; Get that times can be tough but the non-billable hours should be worked into your shop rate. Our shop aims for at least 80% billable a day and I try very hard to do so.
This is a result of an overregulated industry. An underperforming and basic Cessna 172 being worth more than a supercar when new from the factory, when a far better homebuilt can be built for a fraction of the price? Cost of improvements and upgrades through STCs, when homebuilts can do it no problem? Low pay for high standards and responsibilities for mechanics? High barriers to entry? Noncompetitive pricing? The FAA is killing aviation. How long does A&P enrollment have to drop, and A&P mechanics leave for other industries before the FAA figures out they messed up?
They won't figure out they messed up, because killing GA is exactly what they're trying to do. They will think of it as having succeeded. What other agenda than "get the bicycles off the interstate" would the airline executives who run the FAA have?
About 25 years ago I was finally working on getting my private pilot license after spending many years flying with my father in one of his airplanes, and I was at that point a professional automotive mechanic with four masters certificates and some additional certificates as well. I had worked on air cooled Volkswagen engines back in the 70s, and I thought I was a pretty sharp guy when it came to diagnostics…. so one day I decided to stop by a maintenance hanger near one of my local airports, and I told the fella that ran the place what I did on a normal daily basis with engines and transmissions and control systems…and I asked him if it would be worth my while to look into getting my A and P certificate….and he looked at me like I had just asked him if I should cover myself with honey and roll around on a mound of fire ants. He looked at me with that look that said, “what are you, crazy?” Now… if he felt that way, there is no surprise that people don’t want to become airplane mechanics.
I wish there was more videos and help out there for studying mechanics im in school for A&P and have a hard time finding any videos I mean this is complex stuff to be able to picture in your mind with just words
I have my A&P but am looking for part time work only. I would love to eventually get enough experience to be able to get my IA and open a shop doing fabric coverings and annuals.
I’m 65 and a retiree, and started training for my PPL in 2017. Covid, Special Issuance complications, and all the nightmares of CFIs moving on before they solo you or just not having the discipline to use a syllabus or the courage to solo a student, all of these issues have slowed down my progress. It was my love for twin engine props that I decided to go to school for the next two and a half years to learn the trade and get my certifications. As far as insurance is concerned, all a shop owner will have to give me is enough to cover my Medicare B, G and Extras. No need to pay me for vacations, just allow me about a month or more unpaid time off for travel. Salary won’t have to be more than he can fairly afford. I think a lot of retirees should consider this trade, and shop owners should encourage it.
Army is having difficulty, now paying $20k for people to enlist in aircraft maintenance. Got my A&P on my own while in the military. Not an easy process but achievable.
I guess I'm done. 62 years old. A&P since 1977. Ex Air Force then 30 years at McDonnel Douglas/Boeing, job shopped around the country for a while. Last job was as a Quality Auditor for a small regional. Fun and paid decent, flew all over the country auditing contract maintenance and fuel suppliers. But then Covid came along and the regional went belly up. Now I can't find a job to save my life. At least not in my area. JS FIRM has jobs but none near me and I'm tired of traveling. Maybe I'll try for Walmart greeter.
The Freightliner dealership where I buy parts from has a hourly shop rate of 125 to 150 per hour... I have my a and p but I couldn't say no to 50 an hoúr to work on semi trucks ... We charge 100 an hour and are 100 percent mobile
@@fomocotech I have already served for 5 years in the coast guard. Getting into the avionics or aviation maintenance areas of the coast guard are extremely challenging. I ended up being a firearms instructor/weapons maintenance guy and got out in 09
@@fomocotech I kinda wish the FAA would offer a GA only a&p rating which can be accomplished for folks who do their own maint already on a regular basis within the scope of the regulation. I have 0 desire to learn about jets and jet engines...
A problem that is actually overdue. Offering pay that is competitive with Amazon warehouse jobs is a good way of saying that A&Ps are not very valuable to employers. Exactly as valuable as those warehouse workers, in fact.
I agree, allow owners an opportunity to do repairs. Break certification into smaller chunks.... Piston engine, Fabric, Aluminum, Composites, Wood, fuel, hydraulics electronics....and let people get approved to work on the aspects relevant to them.
I would say maybe create two different A&P programs, one that is geared more for GA work and a different path that is geared more for larger transport category aircraft. Those want to do GA will do recip only and those with airline aspirations can skip the piston engine classes.
$92 hour a shop hour is ridiculously low. If you can't afford to pay benefits and a competitive wage, you can't afford to run a shop. And if aircraft owners don't want to/can't pay the increased maintenance costs, they can get out of aviation.
Most shops, even automotive pay 1/3 of the shop hourly rate to the mechanic. The rest have to go to shop overhead and insurance. So, $25-ish for GA is pretty typical.
Exactly the reason I left aviation, did 20 years, specialised in engine and component overhaul and repair, but also vastly experienced in all aspects of airframe, the only things I haven’t worked on is avionics and fuel systems They tell me I’m worth $15-20 an hour less than what my mates that are builders and sparkies so I told them to stick it up the arse To be fair general aviation isn’t looking great to recover from COVID
It is sad because when I was 21 years old I worked as a diesel tech no experience no training I start 5 dollars more per hour than what my local airline hires A&Ps to work on CRJs
Only having my A&P 3 years, I can tell you unless you have a "insider" with Delta, UPS, and FedEx, Good luck finding any job above 20 bucks an Hour right out of school.. Hell I can't get training at the place I work at now because I'm only a 3 year mech here, Hell I work my ass off to make sure the planes are safe to fly and some are to fat and lazy to do real work. I would have loved to find an GA shop that would have paid me 20 bucks an hour close to my home, 3 years ago.
I was thinking about A&P for my second career. With the 'Green new deal' and global warming scare, I don't know if I should invest in schooling only to see aviation demand continue to slide. What are your thoughts? I am a Private Pilot, but I am discouraged with spending $$$ to go commercial + ratings and flight hours.
@jato72 - I'm an older gent who got interested in 'is aviation GA mechanics still a viable way to make a living'. There's a guy on the internet who - sells a book about it - claims a person can work on airplanes without having to first obtain the A&P certification. Apparently you work for a company on airplanes under 'supervision' . It's the supervisor who signs off your work. He was working on large jet interiors & claimed 'some' co-workers prefer not to get certified. After some OJT - the company can refer you so you can test for the certification without the need for A&P school. He worked with a large commercial outfit - I believe he implied this can work with GA as well. Any how - hold off on committing the bucks for A&P school in case this is actually as I described. (See & reread the video graphics above @ 19:09 & 19:20 minutes & listen carefully to the audio of this vid @ 24:36 & 26:00 minutes to the points Mike makes!!) As a way of encouragement - don't be disheartened by the news of aviation companies being destroyed. Many businesses have recently suffered - BUT - will be resurrected because the economy will come back - even tho somewhat slow at first. Also - on a different topic - I was interested in starting a build project on an RV-7. Ten or so years ago many engine re-build shops existed around the country & offered great deals on 'new noncertified' Lycoming type engines for homebuilders. Many of the shops have gone out of business - even before Covid-19. So now there's less competition in that market and available engines direct from the major manufacturers are priced somewhat higher by $6 - 12K. I'm maintaining hope that these same rebuild shops will arise.
@@jato72 When I was in AMT school there was one student pilot in my AMT class and there was another one that had already had his private pilots license. Both wanted to get their A&P so they would have another job and could work on their own aircraft at the same time, But keep in mind they cannot do all "IA" things on their own aircraft, also do to the FAR, But it would help a lot to get it. I have always been into aircraft at all levels from the first time I was able to see the first man on the moon when I was 2 years old. I had made some wrong choices, or went down a different road and got away from aviation for like 20 years. What got me back into it was I met a guy that was playing in a small band I was doing sound for, found out he had a Cessna 150. He took me for a ride in and had let me fly it and I was hook on flying again. I had helped him do some owner maintenance on this plane, I looked for a job that had an apprenticeship program but none could be found where I was at at the time. By this time I had like 25 years working on anything from chain saws up to 35 ton dump trucks, computers and radio repairs and had even worked at a gun shop doing remanufacture of ammo and refinishing some fire arms for the owner of the gun shop. I had thought about getting my pilot license, as I flew in my friends C150 after every maintenance job I was involved on his plane, but I knew the cost of getting to the private level was much higher than me just getting the A&P. I'm 53 now and I took on the A&P side. I really wanted the GA side of aviation but as I stated there was no jobs that was open for someone like me right out of school. I ended up in heavy maintenance working on B757-200 and B767-200 & 300 freighters with some passengers aircraft mixed in. Now I work for the same company as a line maintenance tech for 3 different air carriers moving freight. The job it tough and always have tons of work to do in a 4 our turn with 3 or 4 aircraft but I still don't make the money that they say can be made doing this work. And as I stated about the very few that do pay well, it's very hard to get a job with them now. I do like my job but it's hard to be away from my home and asking my kids to keep an eye on my place and look after it while I'm gone.
The GOM's have retired. I am an Air Force A&PIA, 1952, the school was 20 months at most. ballons, fab covering, wood structure repair, welding, sheet metal of repair and fab new parts , electrical, engine systems, landing gear, airframe , etc, etc. no Aviononics , FCC certify for work. My FAA ticket is issued " indefinite " by tests of airframe, props, powerplant, systems. Every aircraft HAS a "log Book" signed by the A&P for work completed and " Return To Service ", ( ok to fly). $95/ hour is a good figure, however, maintenance repair work requires " approved " parts replacement, not O'Reiley's for repair. Owners have an "High Maintenance" $$$ + vehicle " Chen ", we don't "learn " on your aircraft, discrepancies are/may be typically known of your model AC. Wait, the A&P wage is only app 10% of the $95. If the airplane crashes, FAA, not responsible, A&P, signed to flight. End my sermon.
The requirements for aircraft avionics technician, required FCC certificate to remove avionics, test, repair, install in and for all aircraft types. A&P Chuck.
I have no problem with paying a specialty shop that is familiar with my aircraft a higher shop rate. I'm not ok with paying even $95/hour to a shop to have their A&P learn on my dime on how to work on my aircraft.
@@747lcfmxcontroller5 I think you may have misunderstood my statement. I don't care if a shop is using my plane to teach newcomers. I just don't think it should be me footing the bill if that means a job that should have taken 1 hour to complete now takes 4 hours.
@@brianchen3093 if the shop is competent they won’t bill the extra hours for training, I know our shop doesn’t. IE an oil change takes 1.5 hours, we aren’t gonna bill any more than that if the new guy takes longer.
I think the solution here is what he discussed, provide a limited rating for private owners to work on their own aircraft. This would give the appropriate training for those of us who are capable and are facing the issues he addressed.
I was never afraid of working on USAF F-15s and after getting my A&P at embry-riddle and worked for Beechcraft on Super King Air B200s (US Army). After Bush's peace dividend ended that I worked on Saudi F-15s in KSA, never had problems. After that contract ended, worked at a local FBO, upon observing an owenr working under the cowl of his plane right after the 100 hour I did on it I determined that was just too risky. Changed careers in to computer technology soon after that.
Let’s all be honest here, the reason there is a mechanic shortage is because the pay is crap, the reason the pay is crap is because owners have gorse in their wallets and think we should maintain their aircraft for the love of it, I wish I had become a electrician instead of going into aviation I could be charging $90 per hour here in NZ
From what you said, I can get time to get current on my A&P certificates by helping others working or building on their experimental aircraft or my building my own aircraft? I am asking this here as on the webinars my questions don't ever get asked! Thanks again.
Last year, the FAA changed its policy on this, and no longer allows any time spent “manufacturing” an E-AB aircraft to be credited against the experience requirements for the mechanic certificate. Time spent maintaining an E-AB aircraft once it is built does count. I don’t know what motivated the FAA to make this change, which I consider quite unfortunate. -Mike
@@savvyaviation Maybe if you get a meeting you can bring this issue up. It almost sounds as though they do not have everything in black and white and the FAA field offices seem to do what they want. Back in school we were told that a FAA field person knew a lot of the pilots on the airports and who was working on their own planes. We were told of an incident where a pilot was pulling the cylinders on his twin. The FAA came by as the hanger door was open and saw what was going on. The FAA personal came in and told him to at least keep the door closed when doing that. Then the FAA person told the pilot that he had done so much work on his aircraft in the past that he knew about, that if he went to the office and filled out the papers, that he would sign the pilot's mechanic hours off towards A&P certificates!!!! Now they say that I can not go back to school to get re-current and I cannot build or help someone build a plane and take the time towards recurrency. The only way to get hours, it seems, is to get a full time job (lets not kid ourselves no one wants to waste time training an older person that might not stay long). It does not seem fair. I can go to school and read AD's and read the books in class, and read the books to do the rebuilds, but the FAA said no reading time will be counted towards re-currency. I was told that they would not count the 6 months time unless it was 40 hours a week. I don't see any way to get this done. In the past I was asked to fly a kit built plane by a company. They asked me to fly it to San Diego as the Riverside FAA office would not sign off the planes in Riverside. They had flown some down to San Diego and they were licensed. I went to a meeting at Riverside, while getting my certificates. The FAA field person said, when asked about building experimental aircraft and how many a person can build, that he would not license more then 2 aircraft built by the same person as he would be building them as a business as far as he was concerned. He proudly said that the builder would, at that point, be stuck with an aircraft that could not be licensed!!!!! Where is that written?! This may sound sarcastic, and it is meant to be, but I feel that his attitude was that he was the final authority and his decisions do not have to be based on anything other than his personal judgement. Thanks
Owner maintenance is extremely limited. I doubt FAA will change that for certificated aircraft. I don’t have time to go to school for 2 years to get an A&P license.
I’ve seen the result of poor owner performed maintenance, even above and beyond what the regulations allow. Untrained owners, at least the ones who are not skilled will kill people. then again, I’ve seen similar work out of mechanics.
@@TheReadBaron91 Yep. A mechanic who had multiples years experience put bolts that were too short in the horizontal stabilizer lower rear attachment of my 150. This mistake was caught by a different mechanic during a separate annual.
I have worked Avionics Logistics for years and want to switch over to be a mechanic. I am not exactly mechanically inclined, but have a high drive to learn and am very competitive. My question goes; is it required to have a strong mechanical background or can I pick this up along the way of becoming an A&P either through school or on the job experience?
A&P mechanics are excepted to work on very expensive aircraft with very expensive parts buy thousands of dollars in tools with very high legal liability for minimal pay .
You are dreaming that young people go into it for the love of aircraft That hasn’t happened since I started my apprenticeship in 1990, those guys are dead or retired now When I did my apprenticeship there would have been 50 of us on the airfield you wouldn’t find 5 now
In the airliner world, in conjunction with the majors the EU / EASA developed the A, B and C licensing system (which Australia adopted a decade ago) which gave enough privileges to the "cheaper" less experienced A licensed mechanic that you didn't need as many "costly" B licensed mechanics. Great system for lowering wage overheads hey? All the thought went into that but none into the impact of artificially lowering wages and reducing earning potential. And in the piloting world at large, post Covid how many people are going to be assessing their goal against the cost to qualify, the risk of industry collapse, and the pool of currently idle experience they'll be competing against to get their first job? The whole thing is itching for a hard reset.
I see it happening now. I agreed to take a job with an outfit for $22/hour (slave wages) working 12 hour shifts away from home. But then another company called and picked me up for more. So I left, the owner of the previous company threatened to sue me because he said he couldn't find anyone else due to the shortage and that I had an agreement with him to work for the fire season. . . .Some of these owners kill the industry by scraping profits off of their employee's backs.
@@PatrickJWenzel I had to consult a lawyer to find out if there was any basis to his papers. Fortunately, there is a law that allows him to file a claim based on my verbal agreement if it affected him getting a contract (which he was, with the DOI/USFS), but my lawyer said that he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. Honestly, just after a divorce and being ripped to shreds from courts I almost left the higher paying position to satisfy the other guy because I couldn't afford another financial hit.
I remember that airport as Orange County Airport. I flew a Piper Tripacer out of there to North Carolina that fall. Sure has changed and the Santa Anna Marine Corps Air Facility is gone now too.
Once COVID is well behind us and the airlines recover they are basically going to be poaching every single student from school by luring them in with good pay scales and the awesome benefits, that and airliners like the 737 or 787 are also more interesting for the average student than say a C172 or a Piper. When our instructor asked who wants to go into the airlines and who wants to do GA all but one person raised their hands for airline work and the lone student raised his hand for GA work. Even some of the regional airlines are starting off their mechanics higher than a typical GA shop.
I have been a pilot and aircraft owner for 30 years and A&P for 5 and FAA goons ( they used to be mostly helpful now they are just percussionist ) looking to get brownie points by destroying people. I am selling my airplane and never going back to the airport.
I strongly disagree with this viewpoint about factory trained service. I don’t work on airplanes, but used to work on cars my experience after working at several dealers and a few independent shops is the exact opposite, the dealerships due quick poor quality work and I would never take a car to a dealership for service. The whole system is setup to do the worst quality work possible because they pay flat rate which encourages you to cut corners to make more money every minute you can save on a job is more money in your pocket I am not saying that they are going to leave bolts out but I have seen it done before but simple things like cleaning and greasing a brake caliper bracket during a brake job is never going to get done things you would be fired for at an Independent shop are common place. It might be different in aviation but every independent shop I worked at was hourly pay and did high quality work. I am sure there are some good dealers somewhere and believe me there are some horrible independent shops. The fact is that flat rate pay rewards bad work.
Which is why if aviation ever goes flat rate industry wide, I’m leaving. You can make good money if you are good, but I’ve seen the manufacture flat rates for Cirrus and diamond and you will have to be a magician to make money, as well as the already shady mechanics out there would become even more so in order to make those rates.
FAR/AMT Part43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventative , ETC. See, (g) details the preventative maintenance . See, Appendix A to Part 43. paragraph (e) Preventative Maintenance, and limited operations, ( no complex disassemble of systems). See : (1) thru (30). only by a Holder of a certificated private pilot. Read further on. Signed, A&P retired IA. Regards Mike, info +++++. 40 years late. Why did military aircraft have fabric covered control surfaces ? Bullet holes were easier to cover. Thanks. Army Air Force, B-29, recips, and grease rag holder.
Am I the only one not a fan of mike Busch? He’s a big proponent of owner maintenance but he really should read (so should pilots) part 43 appendix A paragraph 30 about preventative maintenance. In fact I’ll paste it on here- The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type certificate or supplemental type certificate holder's approved special inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary category aircraft provided: (i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under § 147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training program approved under § 21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and
Don’t spend $5000 training a college grad when, it’s a given they will leave when a better opportunity comes. We had the same issues in hiring when giving overqualified people jobs. Our best retention came from high school grads, and even better with drop outs who had no other options than to build up experience on their resume.
Knowledge of the aircraft systems, are specialized, and now an A&P is complex Airframe or Powerplant defined. Systems are going hi tech. Trouble shoot with your I phone. Ford model A A&P on call. A&P seems not romantic any more. Electric A&P !
So the jist of it all is that general aviation is going the way of the homebuilt movement... no two ways about it. In the future, fliers will have to be builders/mechanic just like it was in the beginning. Sounds good to me... safety first, specially when my ass is in the airplane.
Until they start killing occupants and innocent ground dwellers and hurts GA. Not a good idea. Can't people just appreciate the miracle of the whole thing called aviation and GA and do what it necessary to keep the gears moving? Become a mechanic, crowdfund a maintenance shop, flight clubs. Etc.
I disagree with the segregating of A&P school subjects. No, I will never dope a plane, but its a good right off passage that also teaches you cause and effect of materials. I do mostly business jet maintenance and had no intention of touching a piston plane, but I do and am glad I did that part of the powerplant course. Not only that, but mechanics should have the ability to shift easily to a different work setting. It sounds good to say we should only study what we think we will work on, but the application is limiting and would be hard to implement
Sorry to say I read a lot of pissing and moaning in many of the responses. I have been in aviation for over 40-years now and learned a skill that has served me well. I learned early in my aviation career you can be a wrench turner or rivet pounder as long as you want for a certain wage. I chose to gain additional education and move up the career ladder. I have never been unemployed and always moved for a better position and promotion climbing the career ladder. Not everyone will do this and piss and moan because they are not moving up in their aviation career. If you want to move up educate yourself more and learn new or different skills. Skilled labor is in demand as a current A&P/IA and DME there are positions if you are willing to relocate and get out of your confront zone. Just one mechanics opinion.
This isn't just about careers though. It's also about owner maintenance for those of us sufficiently skilled. I'm a Mechanical Engineer (day job) and a CFII (used to be my day job). Why can't I work on my own airplane? Why is the experimental avenue to me becoming an A&P now closed? What happens when there aren't enough mechanics around to get annuals done on-time? Why does everything (avionics, engines...) cost so much more for certified aircraft, when it came off the same assembly line as the experimental components? I design supercomputers. Our computer rack structures is primarily all riveted sheet metal. Electronics, cable harnesses, and circuits are a big part of the job. Knowledge of engine design are a core ME competency area (bearings, lubrication, gears, cams, springs, thermodynamics....). Anything I don't know how to do, I can reach out to the EAA and a few local mechanics to learn (if they are willing to), read the books and manuals, watch videos, practice on scrap material...
@@SoloRenegade The simple reason you cannot work on your own airplane is simple it is limitations in the Federal Code of Regulations that protect people on the ground from improper repairs and maintenance from non-certificate Airframe and Powerplant mechanics. The same reasoning is why I am not allowed to design structural bridges, even engineers have limitations to what they can design and put their name on. Appendix A of part 43 provides limitations for owner maintenance. I happen to be a skilled A&P/IA and I refuse to perform annual inspections of aircraft that owners perform preventive maintenance and servicing beyond Appendix A for pilots. There is a huge risk for mechanics that do not fully inspect aircraft and find all the little things pilots have done outside their limitations. The cost of liability insurance for the mechanic has priced many IAs out of the business. Every accident or incident almost all pilots or the family members will sue the mechanic and manufacturer. Sue happy people is what has driven the cost of aircraft parts and maintenance through the ceiling. Many IAs like myself have a few select aircraft we perform annual inspections on ONLY because of the risk of owners not following Appendix lA imitations. If owners want to do their own maintenance they should attend an A&P school and learn the skill of aviation maintenance and drop the ego.
@@dennypollard8004 Yes, but most such regulations apply to commercial operations, and designing bridges for Hire. I can perform maintenance on my car, on my house and such because I'm not being paid to do it, and it is my personal property. Attending an A&P school is an unreasonable ask for most people. One, you have to have one local, and you have to have the time to do it. My training as an engineer allows me to Design the parts and aircraft in its entirety. I am fully trained, educated, and experienced enough to do the kind of work I wish to do. In fact, i would argue that as a mechanical engineer I am more qualified. It's one thing to repair/replace things, another thing entirely to design all the parts and systems the mechanics are working on. Don't worry, I'm well aware of what people think of engineers, as I share the sentiment. But I came up from working with my hands in racing, farming, models, military...before i became a pilot/engineer. But how do you determine if a mechanic is skilled enough? I am more skilled and qualified than most mechanics I've met. I've designed things that went into outer space even, and hand built much of them myself since it was a one-off design. Experimental owners perform their own maintenance all the time and have an comparable accident rate to certified aircraft, with pilot error still being the major cause of accidents. Your arguments seem to stem from an idea that nobody is smarter than a mechanic, and nobody is qualified to use basic tools unless they did it in a specific building for a certain arbitrary time limit. Kids can rivet panels, turn a screwdriver, learn safety wire. I have college interns do Weight & Balance calculations for our computers (which weigh as much as 5000lbs) with no prior experience. The math is so simple a elementary/middle school kid can do it easily. If you need specialized training spread over 2yrs to do these things...
@@SoloRenegade Title 14 part 43.3 says you can work under the supervision of an A&P that holds the rating. I am okay with that. There is more to turning wrenches to be an A&P mechanic and block 5 on your aircraft Standard Airworthiness Certificate is a major limitation. All Standard category aircraft MUST meet both of the requirements below to be considered airworthy. If only one item is meet the aircraft would be considered “unairworthy”. 1. The aircraft must conform to its type certificate (TC) (design). This is attained when the aircraft configuration and the engine, propeller, and articles installed are consistent with the drawings, specifications, and other data that are part of the TC. This includes any Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) and repairs and alterations incorporated into the aircraft. 2. The aircraft must be in a condition for safe operation. This refers to the condition of the aircraft relative to wear and deterioration (e.g., skin corrosion, window delamination/crazing, fluid leaks, and tire wear). (Refer to Order 8130.2, chapter 2.) A&P mechanics are trained in determining how an aircraft meets it type design most owners have no idea what this means of that the weight and balance report the A&P provides and being 100% correct comes from the up to date equipment list. If the equipment list is not current the weight and balance is incorrect. Removing wheel fairing changes the weight and balance C.G. and rarely show as removed on the equipment list. This goes for all kinds of avionic equipment installed by part number and serial number the arm and weight are seldom or never revised by the owners. Owners is not allowed to fill out FAA Form 337s for major alterations or repair and will just slap an STC part on the aircraft and never update the AFM/POH, revise the W/B, or update the equipment list. Even to perform preventive maintenance Title 14 part 32 section 43.13 requires the owner to have current data and required calibrated tools the same as the A&P. Be honest here how many owners do this? Experimental aircraft are totally different as they are not built to any controlled standard. However, may have a TC engine and propeller that must be maintained to T/C and AD requirement as part of their limitations. Experimental owners have limitations attached to their Special Airworthiness Certificate but most never follow them. You sound like a common-sense kind of guy and I would recommend you attend an A&P School and get your A&P. I happen to be a Designated Mechanic Examiner (DME) and I test out of a part 147 school facility. The school happens to have a lot of pilots going through the process to obtain their A&P certificates and I test them. All of them are amazed at what they have learned even with their years as pilots and their professional backgrounds. I will say this for all A&P mechanics they all have to meet a 70% knowledge and skill level or “C” average to be qualified as an aircraft mechanic. Aircraft are built to standards and vehicles are not. Airplanes can’t park on clouds when things go wrong and A&P is held responsible for themaintenance they perform. The A&P certificate is our livelihood and the A&P is really a license to learn and keep learning. I think A&P is a special breed of only 1% of the workforce for good reason. No kids cannot figure out skin edge distance, prepare rivet holes, and drive rivets to 1.5 diameters for a correct shop head. Or can they install safety properly as most pilots can’t as well. Kids and pilots both pull safety wire “tight” and that is incorrect. Tight safety wire will break all safety wire should be taunt and depending on the wire diameter the twists per inch is different. Safety wire is a basic skill all A&P mechanics must master to pass the A&P test and we do by hand no safety wire pliers allowed so the wire is not nicked. There is a reason the A&P has to attend 1,900-hours of training just to be able to take the tests with me as a DME. There is a lot to know and that does make us special.
@@dennypollard8004 I'm well acquainted with the billboards and advertising. Again, no A&P schools near me, nor do I have that amount of time to spend 2yrs at it given my schedule. There is always more for anyone to learn, about any topic, at any stage of their life/career. That is not a valid argument for preventing owners from doing basic maintenance they are fully capable of doing. Perhaps if the A&P was divided up into subsections that owners could take, enabling them to do only the maintenance relevant to them, that would ease the ridiculous burden. And I comply with regulations, standards and such constantly at my job. I'm the one who designs the parts, makes the drawings, does the calculations, conducts testing... I'm fully capable of doing everything you describe, and more. I also own just about every single book on aircraft maintenance I can find, relevant to the aircraft I care about. I also have an exhaustive library of aerospace engineering books as well. Believe me, myself and others like me are Far more capable of doing the job than you want to believe. Mechanics are not special, they're important, but just mechanics, trained to follow procedures and processes. A wrench is a wrench, torque is torque, rivet is a rivet, a material is a material... Their properties and proper use doesn't change just because it's used on an airplane. You seem to miss the fact that it is people like Me who write the manuals you are required to comply with. This is like Afghanistan, when I collected intel on a mission and it ended up going to the pentagon. Next day we get a mission based on "classified" intel, which I was not permitted to see, even though it was me who had to conduct the mission. I took the report from them anyways, only to find that what I was not allowed to see was the intel I had provided, and which I still had the original copies of everything on my personal laptop. If I am qualified to design and dictate the specs and procedures you are required to follow, then I am qualified to follow them as well. Kids can learn, and do. We have multiple aviation education programs in my state. If they didn't learn it properly, it's because it wasn't taught properly, or they weren't given enough time to practice it. Have you ever even tried to teach a kid? I teach kids engineering, math, physics, electronics, aerodynamics, soldering.... I can even teach elementary kids algebra in less than an hour, and teach any age calculus 1 if they understand basic algebra. They are fully capable, the weak link is always the instructor. Perhaps if pilots were allowed and encouraged to do more, and to learn more, they would do things correctly. The current state of affairs in aviation results in undesirable outcomes. Make things needlessly expensive and restrictive, and people try to circumvent the rules. Make it accessible, but tell people they must do it according to standard procedures, and they would. If people were more free to do more, they'd more likely openly seek help and learn proper methods. but keeping basic skills under lock and key and inaccessible results in secret work being conducted. This is standard human behavior, and well understood to those who know history. The law of unintended consequences. Ever consider that weight and balance isn't done as much as it should be because they are not allowed to? Perhaps if they were allowed to, people would update their weight and balance far more often? You are approaching this from a biased viewpoint, and too readily dismiss valid concerns and arguments. Most mechanics are not very friendly, and are not willing to supervise owners. Far too many wont even allow the owners to be present during the annual. This is unacceptable and unprofessional behavior, but far too common. If mechanics wish to continue keeping owners in the dark, owners will continue making shoddy repairs in the dark as well. You insult ALL pilots, and unfairly assume they are all incompetent, yet expect pilots to respect mechanics. You need to learn how to take the win-win stance if you wish to win over people. The experimental community is proof that all this high and mighty attitude is not warranted. I've seen far more ratty certified aircraft in my days than among the experimental community. Poorly maintained aircraft will always exist in all segments. But restricting knowledge is not a way to reduce errors and encourage following rules.
I quit general aviation as an A&P because I couldn't support my family on $15 an hour. I now make $135 an hour as an electrical contractor. If you want to attract talent and keep the people you train, you have to pay them something.
Where were you working as a A&P Tech? Was the max you were able to make $15 straight out of school?
I've been in aviation for 45 years. I'll talk about what no one else is willing to say. I have see the unjustifiable increases in insurance, parts, and training for years now. Younger generations cannot afford it. There are no younger folks joining aviation because greedy corporations changed aviation -- only for the wealthy now. The greed and profit expectations have reached unattainable levels, and this behavior has destroyed the industry. It pushed the average family from enjoying flight...just like many family events. Have you seen the price of MLB Baseball tickets ($65 per ticket). You cannot even enjoy a baseball game with your grandkids or child anymore. The average family cannot afford it anymore...sad.
If you pay higher pay to mechanics then you have to pass the cost on to customers and some of them will take their aircraft to Mexico where rates are cheaper
I just got my A&P and I'm really enjoying working on aircraft, I am working in a small GA shop because I vastly prefer recips to turbines. The problem, as Mike says, is that for a lot of my peers the pay is terrible. GA shops want experience but they're only paying $22-$28/hr in an area with a very high cost of living. I don't blame people for finding other professions that pay more for work that is less strenuous and which require less attention to detail. Mechs love the work, but the truth is that GA simply doesn't pay.
Sadly out of the class of 19 students I graduated with. I'm guessing that only three to four of us will even get our certifications. GA will suffer as good mechanics will continue to gravitate to airlines and commercial shops where the pay and benefits are better.
John: Your story is true exactly. However, get the A&P tests, if you already know, the FAA plastic card is indefinite, same as a pilot license. Good as a degree, not as hi pay, instructor, qual inspector, AC systems are always in change. I'm retired A&PIA, line up to get the IA, Inspection Authorization ticket, added 40 hours school, learn FAR/AMT regulations. Renewal needed, every 2 years, IA required to complete FAA Annual Inspections for AC to stay in service. NASA employed with the Space Shuttle until it's retirement, A&P. look into Lycoming or Piper, building new turbo models. I get A&P offers weekly, gave my tool box to my Grandson, help my son his 17 cessna. If you can, may require moving. Work in some helicopter experience. Aviation has retired me. Good luck.
It's been like this for YEARS!!!! The pay have been absolute trash for the knowledge, liabilities, and sacrifice.
I am a helicopter mechanic (20 years, twin turbine) owners have been scraping profits off our backs for years.
I stopped complaining. . .
2 more months and I'm completely done with aviation maintenance. I'm opening a clothing brand.
Spot on!
I am a certificate holder, A and P. And private pilot. Do not work on aircraft anymore. I make $95k repairing cement mixers.
Rather work on aircraft, just can not take the pay cut.
Good , always need the cement for runways.
@@chuckhiggins15ok jocko, cool your jets pal …
I’m a member of AOPA since 1997 and read your article concerning this in the Sept 2020 AOPA Pilot magazine. I’m an automobile mechanic by trade. I’ve worked at the dealership level, at the independent shop level and I’ve worked a tele-diagnostic hotline for 10 years for Delphi, General Motors parts group. I’ve been out of work since March 24 of this year due to COVID cause the owner of the small independent shop I was employed at decided to close. When I saw your article I thought maybe I could try something different in the repair field such as this but the pay and time requirements to even achieve A&P status caused me to rethink this route.
The wages just aren't there
I am an A&P and IA, and pilot. I also hold 4 ASE Master certifications. I work for a public transit agency. Pay approaches $34 an hour, with a state run defined benefit pension, health insurance, sick and vacation pay added on top. I don't love the job, like I love aviation, but I can't see how I can work full time in aviation until I retire. I do some avionics work and maintain a couple of friends planes to stay current.
That being said I recommend the 120 hour light sport repairman maintenance course as outlined in this weeks AOPA magazine. This is absolutely the best path for you. You will be able to self supervise for 30 months, then take the A&P exam. You can be building Light Sport Aircraft in the process, and include that time toward the A&P license. Your automotive experience will be valuable. Many A&P mechanics have difficulty with electrical systems. The biggest issue is all the wires are white!
I am an A&P and an ATP. Worked in aviation for 30 years, but mostly as a Military Contractor. That paid well. Other Aviation jobs do not. I’m enrolled in a School of Health Care Sciences Program at the moment. I need to make a little more $$ before I retire.
As an A&P/IA working for a repair station I wish I could specialize in a single brand; but it’s just not sustainable for the RS. Maybe in the future if business stays good. I went from doing an annual on a 2019 SR20 to an annual on a 1955 PA-22-150.
I definitely get the balance of the shop rates-lots of owners are unwilling to pay more per hour than work done on their car.
Maybe it’s Mary’s preference or necessity to pay for billable hours only, but I would find a different job at that point. Not saying I am a slacker but if you expect me to show up at 8 AM and be there until 4:30 PM better pay me; Get that times can be tough but the non-billable hours should be worked into your shop rate. Our shop aims for at least 80% billable a day and I try very hard to do so.
This is a result of an overregulated industry. An underperforming and basic Cessna 172 being worth more than a supercar when new from the factory, when a far better homebuilt can be built for a fraction of the price? Cost of improvements and upgrades through STCs, when homebuilts can do it no problem? Low pay for high standards and responsibilities for mechanics? High barriers to entry? Noncompetitive pricing? The FAA is killing aviation.
How long does A&P enrollment have to drop, and A&P mechanics leave for other industries before the FAA figures out they messed up?
They won't figure out they messed up, because killing GA is exactly what they're trying to do. They will think of it as having succeeded. What other agenda than "get the bicycles off the interstate" would the airline executives who run the FAA have?
About 25 years ago I was finally working on getting my private pilot license after spending many years flying with my father in one of his airplanes, and I was at that point a professional automotive mechanic with four masters certificates and some additional certificates as well. I had worked on air cooled Volkswagen engines back in the 70s, and I thought I was a pretty sharp guy when it came to diagnostics…. so one day I decided to stop by a maintenance hanger near one of my local airports, and I told the fella that ran the place what I did on a normal daily basis with engines and transmissions and control systems…and I asked him if it would be worth my while to look into getting my A and P certificate….and he looked at me like I had just asked him if I should cover myself with honey and roll around on a mound of fire ants. He looked at me with that look that said, “what are you, crazy?” Now… if he felt that way, there is no surprise that people don’t want to become airplane mechanics.
Companies have been TOP HEAVY for years!!!! The gig is up. Pay me.
I heard that lol 😆, I want to become an aircraft mechanic and it's the pay and benefits of a major carrier for me
And want you to work days, nights, weekend holidays and pay on peanuts.
I wish there was more videos and help out there for studying mechanics im in school for A&P and have a hard time finding any videos I mean this is complex stuff to be able to picture in your mind with just words
I have my A&P but am looking for part time work only. I would love to eventually get enough experience to be able to get my IA and open a shop doing fabric coverings and annuals.
I’m 65 and a retiree, and started training for my PPL in 2017. Covid, Special Issuance complications, and all the nightmares of CFIs moving on before they solo you or just not having the discipline to use a syllabus or the courage to solo a student, all of these issues have slowed down my progress. It was my love for twin engine props that I decided to go to school for the next two and a half years to learn the trade and get my certifications. As far as insurance is concerned, all a shop owner will have to give me is enough to cover my Medicare B, G and Extras. No need to pay me for vacations, just allow me about a month or more unpaid time off for travel. Salary won’t have to be more than he can fairly afford. I think a lot of retirees should consider this trade, and shop owners should encourage it.
Army is having difficulty, now paying $20k for people to enlist in aircraft maintenance.
Got my A&P on my own while in the military. Not an easy process but achievable.
I guess I'm done. 62 years old. A&P since 1977. Ex Air Force then 30 years at McDonnel Douglas/Boeing, job shopped around the country for a while. Last job was as a Quality Auditor for a small regional. Fun and paid decent, flew all over the country auditing contract maintenance and fuel suppliers. But then Covid came along and the regional went belly up. Now I can't find a job to save my life. At least not in my area. JS FIRM has jobs but none near me and I'm tired of traveling. Maybe I'll try for Walmart greeter.
I'm sorry; like any occupation, you may have to be prepared to move to a different part of the country to find the right job. They are out there.
The Freightliner dealership where I buy parts from has a hourly shop rate of 125 to 150 per hour... I have my a and p but I couldn't say no to 50 an hoúr to work on semi trucks ... We charge 100 an hour and are 100 percent mobile
I would love to get an A&P rating but no schools around me and working full time plus kids makes it quite difficult
I was in a very similar situation. I joined the Army so it could help get me the access.
@@fomocotech I have already served for 5 years in the coast guard. Getting into the avionics or aviation maintenance areas of the coast guard are extremely challenging. I ended up being a firearms instructor/weapons maintenance guy and got out in 09
@@DanCoastie gotcha. I came from automotive to aviation and I have to say that minus being flat rate, automotive seems a lot better.
@@fomocotech I kinda wish the FAA would offer a GA only a&p rating which can be accomplished for folks who do their own maint already on a regular basis within the scope of the regulation. I have 0 desire to learn about jets and jet engines...
@@DanCoastie likewise I wish there was a transport category only A&P for those who have no desire to go into GA.
FAA created LSA for this specific reason, one can earn a LSA repairman cert in 16 days and start signing off Annuals or 100 hr inspection in any LSA.
but that applies to very few aircraft.
@@SoloRenegade You are right, there are about 18,000 172 in the US vs 350 Flight Design LSA.
A problem that is actually overdue. Offering pay that is competitive with Amazon warehouse jobs is a good way of saying that A&Ps are not very valuable to employers.
Exactly as valuable as those warehouse workers, in fact.
Another great video sir. Thank you.
Very welcome
I agree, allow owners an opportunity to do repairs. Break certification into smaller chunks.... Piston engine, Fabric, Aluminum, Composites, Wood, fuel, hydraulics electronics....and let people get approved to work on the aspects relevant to them.
I would say maybe create two different A&P programs, one that is geared more for GA work and a different path that is geared more for larger transport category aircraft. Those want to do GA will do recip only and those with airline aspirations can skip the piston engine classes.
It's basically like being a cell phone technician, but not being able to afford a cell phone 😂 plus it's a PITA job
$92 hour a shop hour is ridiculously low. If you can't afford to pay benefits and a competitive wage, you can't afford to run a shop. And if aircraft owners don't want to/can't pay the increased maintenance costs, they can get out of aviation.
Most shops, even automotive pay 1/3 of the shop hourly rate to the mechanic. The rest have to go to shop overhead and insurance. So, $25-ish for GA is pretty typical.
Yet your average automotive dealership is charging $120+/hour
Exactly the reason I left aviation, did 20 years, specialised in engine and component overhaul and repair, but also vastly experienced in all aspects of airframe, the only things I haven’t worked on is avionics and fuel systems
They tell me I’m worth $15-20 an hour less than what my mates that are builders and sparkies so I told them to stick it up the arse
To be fair general aviation isn’t looking great to recover from COVID
I am getting my A&P right now. I have the fall felt to go.
It is sad because when I was 21 years old I worked as a diesel tech no experience no training I start 5 dollars more per hour than what my local airline hires A&Ps to work on CRJs
Only having my A&P 3 years, I can tell you unless you have a "insider" with Delta, UPS, and FedEx, Good luck finding any job above 20 bucks an Hour right out of school.. Hell I can't get training at the place I work at now because I'm only a 3 year mech here, Hell I work my ass off to make sure the planes are safe to fly and some are to fat and lazy to do real work. I would have loved to find an GA shop that would have paid me 20 bucks an hour close to my home, 3 years ago.
I was thinking about A&P for my second career. With the 'Green new deal' and global warming scare, I don't know if I should invest in schooling only to see aviation demand continue to slide. What are your thoughts? I am a Private Pilot, but I am discouraged with spending $$$ to go commercial + ratings and flight hours.
@jato72 - I'm an older gent who got interested in 'is aviation GA mechanics still a viable way to make a living'. There's a guy on the internet who - sells a book about it - claims a person can work on airplanes without having to first obtain the A&P certification. Apparently you work for a company on airplanes under 'supervision' . It's the supervisor who signs off your work. He was working on large jet interiors & claimed 'some' co-workers prefer not to get certified. After some OJT - the company can refer you so you can test for the certification without the need for A&P school. He worked with a large commercial outfit - I believe he implied this can work with GA as well. Any how - hold off on committing the bucks for A&P school in case this is actually as I described. (See & reread the video graphics above @ 19:09 & 19:20 minutes & listen carefully to the audio of this vid @ 24:36 & 26:00 minutes to the points Mike makes!!)
As a way of encouragement - don't be disheartened by the news of aviation companies being destroyed. Many businesses have recently suffered - BUT - will be resurrected because the economy will come back - even tho somewhat slow at first.
Also - on a different topic - I was interested in starting a build project on an RV-7. Ten or so years ago many engine re-build shops existed around the country & offered great deals on 'new noncertified' Lycoming type engines for homebuilders. Many of the shops have gone out of business - even before Covid-19. So now there's less competition in that market and available engines direct from the major manufacturers are priced somewhat higher by $6 - 12K. I'm maintaining hope that these same rebuild shops will arise.
@@jato72 When I was in AMT school there was one student pilot in my AMT class and there was another one that had already had his private pilots license. Both wanted to get their A&P so they would have another job and could work on their own aircraft at the same time, But keep in mind they cannot do all "IA" things on their own aircraft, also do to the FAR, But it would help a lot to get it. I have always been into aircraft at all levels from the first time I was able to see the first man on the moon when I was 2 years old. I had made some wrong choices, or went down a different road and got away from aviation for like 20 years. What got me back into it was I met a guy that was playing in a small band I was doing sound for, found out he had a Cessna 150. He took me for a ride in and had let me fly it and I was hook on flying again. I had helped him do some owner maintenance on this plane, I looked for a job that had an apprenticeship program but none could be found where I was at at the time. By this time I had like 25 years working on anything from chain saws up to 35 ton dump trucks, computers and radio repairs and had even worked at a gun shop doing remanufacture of ammo and refinishing some fire arms for the owner of the gun shop. I had thought about getting my pilot license, as I flew in my friends C150 after every maintenance job I was involved on his plane, but I knew the cost of getting to the private level was much higher than me just getting the A&P. I'm 53 now and I took on the A&P side. I really wanted the GA side of aviation but as I stated there was no jobs that was open for someone like me right out of school. I ended up in heavy maintenance working on B757-200 and B767-200 & 300 freighters with some passengers aircraft mixed in. Now I work for the same company as a line maintenance tech for 3 different air carriers moving freight. The job it tough and always have tons of work to do in a 4 our turn with 3 or 4 aircraft but I still don't make the money that they say can be made doing this work. And as I stated about the very few that do pay well, it's very hard to get a job with them now. I do like my job but it's hard to be away from my home and asking my kids to keep an eye on my place and look after it while I'm gone.
The GOM's have retired. I am an Air Force A&PIA, 1952, the school was 20 months at most. ballons, fab covering, wood structure repair, welding, sheet metal of repair and fab new parts , electrical, engine systems, landing gear, airframe , etc, etc. no Aviononics , FCC certify for work. My FAA ticket is issued " indefinite " by tests of airframe, props, powerplant, systems. Every aircraft HAS a "log Book" signed by the A&P for work completed and " Return To Service ", ( ok to fly). $95/ hour is a good figure, however, maintenance repair work requires " approved " parts replacement, not O'Reiley's for repair. Owners have an "High Maintenance" $$$ + vehicle " Chen ", we don't "learn " on your aircraft, discrepancies are/may be typically known of your model AC. Wait, the A&P wage is only app 10% of the $95. If the airplane crashes, FAA, not responsible, A&P, signed to flight. End my sermon.
The requirements for aircraft avionics technician, required FCC certificate to remove avionics, test, repair, install in and for all aircraft types. A&P Chuck.
You can remove and install (even from new) as an A&P. Now breaking inside them, no.
@@TheReadBaron91 I don't understand your reply, however,. Yes, remove, but with an A&P assist ..Are you an A&P, read the FAR 43.3
I really like your ideas for reform.
I have no problem with paying a specialty shop that is familiar with my aircraft a higher shop rate. I'm not ok with paying even $95/hour to a shop to have their A&P learn on my dime on how to work on my aircraft.
your in a dream world if you think even a specialty shop is not teaching others to work on your plane.
@@747lcfmxcontroller5 I think you may have misunderstood my statement. I don't care if a shop is using my plane to teach newcomers. I just don't think it should be me footing the bill if that means a job that should have taken 1 hour to complete now takes 4 hours.
@@brianchen3093 if the shop is competent they won’t bill the extra hours for training, I know our shop doesn’t.
IE an oil change takes 1.5 hours, we aren’t gonna bill any more than that if the new guy takes longer.
All shops shall have IPC, maintenance manuals upon the aircraft models the shop lists for repair, all are not the same.
Well, then when your airplane breaks, you can just push it out to the edge of the field and let it rot there.
Owner performed maintenance?
Owners know just enough to scare me shitless
I think the solution here is what he discussed, provide a limited rating for private owners to work on their own aircraft. This would give the appropriate training for those of us who are capable and are facing the issues he addressed.
I was never afraid of working on USAF F-15s and after getting my A&P at embry-riddle and worked for Beechcraft on Super King Air B200s (US Army). After Bush's peace dividend ended that I worked on Saudi F-15s in KSA, never had problems. After that contract ended, worked at a local FBO, upon observing an owenr working under the cowl of his plane right after the 100 hour I did on it I determined that was just too risky. Changed careers in to computer technology soon after that.
Let’s all be honest here, the reason there is a mechanic shortage is because the pay is crap, the reason the pay is crap is because owners have gorse in their wallets and think we should maintain their aircraft for the love of it, I wish I had become a electrician instead of going into aviation I could be charging $90 per hour here in NZ
From what you said, I can get time to get current on my A&P certificates by helping others working or building on their experimental aircraft or my building my own aircraft? I am asking this here as on the webinars my questions don't ever get asked! Thanks again.
Last year, the FAA changed its policy on this, and no longer allows any time spent “manufacturing” an E-AB aircraft to be credited against the experience requirements for the mechanic certificate. Time spent maintaining an E-AB aircraft once it is built does count. I don’t know what motivated the FAA to make this change, which I consider quite unfortunate. -Mike
@@savvyaviation
Maybe if you get a meeting you can bring this issue up. It almost sounds as though they do not have everything in black and white and the FAA field offices seem to do what they want. Back in school we were told that a FAA field person knew a lot of the pilots on the airports and who was working on their own planes. We were told of an incident where a pilot was pulling the cylinders on his twin. The FAA came by as the hanger door was open and saw what was going on. The FAA personal came in and told him to at least keep the door closed when doing that. Then the FAA person told the pilot that he had done so much work on his aircraft in the past that he knew about, that if he went to the office and filled out the papers, that he would sign the pilot's mechanic hours off towards A&P certificates!!!! Now they say that I can not go back to school to get re-current and I cannot build or help someone build a plane and take the time towards recurrency. The only way to get hours, it seems, is to get a full time job (lets not kid ourselves no one wants to waste time training an older person that might not stay long). It does not seem fair. I can go to school and read AD's and read the books in class, and read the books to do the rebuilds, but the FAA said no reading time will be counted towards re-currency. I was told that they would not count the 6 months time unless it was 40 hours a week. I don't see any way to get this done.
In the past I was asked to fly a kit built plane by a company. They asked me to fly it to San Diego as the Riverside FAA office would not sign off the planes in Riverside. They had flown some down to San Diego and they were licensed. I went to a meeting at Riverside, while getting my certificates. The FAA field person said, when asked about building experimental aircraft and how many a person can build, that he would not license more then 2 aircraft built by the same person as he would be building them as a business as far as he was concerned. He proudly said that the builder would, at that point, be stuck with an aircraft that could not be licensed!!!!! Where is that written?! This may sound sarcastic, and it is meant to be, but I feel that his attitude was that he was the final authority and his decisions do not have to be based on anything other than his personal judgement. Thanks
Owner maintenance is extremely limited. I doubt FAA will change that for certificated aircraft. I don’t have time to go to school for 2 years to get an A&P license.
Well, eventually the FAA will be Forced to change something, otherwise they'll regulate themselves out of existence.
@@SoloRenegade Higher pay for A&P's
@@rolandoortega6649 That would help for sure, but so would a little updating the FAA regs for the modern age.
I’ve seen the result of poor owner performed maintenance, even above and beyond what the regulations allow. Untrained owners, at least the ones who are not skilled will kill people. then again, I’ve seen similar work out of mechanics.
@@TheReadBaron91 Yep. A mechanic who had multiples years experience put bolts that were too short in the horizontal stabilizer lower rear attachment of my 150. This mistake was caught by a different mechanic during a separate annual.
I have worked Avionics Logistics for years and want to switch over to be a mechanic. I am not exactly mechanically inclined, but have a high drive to learn and am very competitive. My question goes; is it required to have a strong mechanical background or can I pick this up along the way of becoming an A&P either through school or on the job experience?
A&P mechanics are excepted to work on very expensive aircraft with very expensive parts buy thousands of dollars in tools with very high legal liability for minimal pay .
Exactly, that's why I say "let these aviation companies fail, until they learn to come up off that money"
You are dreaming that young people go into it for the love of aircraft
That hasn’t happened since I started my apprenticeship in 1990, those guys are dead or retired now
When I did my apprenticeship there would have been 50 of us on the airfield you wouldn’t find 5 now
I ain't Dead yet. And I resemble that remark.
@@williamtaylor4024 you resemble that remark? Not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me
The secret is out that aviation isn't a good career.
I'm right here. I'm 25. And I'm cursing at my Colt right now lol. 😂
In the airliner world, in conjunction with the majors the EU / EASA developed the A, B and C licensing system (which Australia adopted a decade ago) which gave enough privileges to the "cheaper" less experienced A licensed mechanic that you didn't need as many "costly" B licensed mechanics. Great system for lowering wage overheads hey? All the thought went into that but none into the impact of artificially lowering wages and reducing earning potential.
And in the piloting world at large, post Covid how many people are going to be assessing their goal against the cost to qualify, the risk of industry collapse, and the pool of currently idle experience they'll be competing against to get their first job?
The whole thing is itching for a hard reset.
I see it happening now. I agreed to take a job with an outfit for $22/hour (slave wages) working 12 hour shifts away from home. But then another company called and picked me up for more. So I left, the owner of the previous company threatened to sue me because he said he couldn't find anyone else due to the shortage and that I had an agreement with him to work for the fire season. . . .Some of these owners kill the industry by scraping profits off of their employee's backs.
@@winstonsmith6204 Wow, threatening to sue you because you found a better deal. Is this in America? Is that even possible???
@@PatrickJWenzel I had to consult a lawyer to find out if there was any basis to his papers. Fortunately, there is a law that allows him to file a claim based on my verbal agreement if it affected him getting a contract (which he was, with the DOI/USFS), but my lawyer said that he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. Honestly, just after a divorce and being ripped to shreds from courts I almost left the higher paying position to satisfy the other guy because I couldn't afford another financial hit.
I remember that airport as Orange County Airport. I flew a Piper Tripacer out of there to North Carolina that fall. Sure has changed and the Santa Anna Marine Corps Air Facility is gone now too.
Once COVID is well behind us and the airlines recover they are basically going to be poaching every single student from school by luring them in with good pay scales and the awesome benefits, that and airliners like the 737 or 787 are also more interesting for the average student than say a C172 or a Piper. When our instructor asked who wants to go into the airlines and who wants to do GA all but one person raised their hands for airline work and the lone student raised his hand for GA work. Even some of the regional airlines are starting off their mechanics higher than a typical GA shop.
I have been a pilot and aircraft owner for 30 years and A&P for 5 and FAA goons ( they used to be mostly helpful now they are just percussionist ) looking to get brownie points by destroying people. I am selling my airplane and never going back to the airport.
the world is falling apart, quickly!!!
I strongly disagree with this viewpoint about factory trained service. I don’t work on airplanes, but used to work on cars my experience after working at several dealers and a few independent shops is the exact opposite, the dealerships due quick poor quality work and I would never take a car to a dealership for service. The whole system is setup to do the worst quality work possible because they pay flat rate which encourages you to cut corners to make more money every minute you can save on a job is more money in your pocket I am not saying that they are going to leave bolts out but I have seen it done before but simple things like cleaning and greasing a brake caliper bracket during a brake job is never going to get done things you would be fired for at an Independent shop are common place. It might be different in aviation but every independent shop I worked at was hourly pay and did high quality work. I am sure there are some good dealers somewhere and believe me there are some horrible independent shops. The fact is that flat rate pay rewards bad work.
Which is why if aviation ever goes flat rate industry wide, I’m leaving. You can make good money if you are good, but I’ve seen the manufacture flat rates for Cirrus and diamond and you will have to be a magician to make money, as well as the already shady mechanics out there would become even more so in order to make those rates.
FAR/AMT Part43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventative , ETC. See, (g) details the preventative maintenance . See, Appendix A to Part 43. paragraph (e) Preventative Maintenance, and limited operations, ( no complex disassemble of systems). See : (1) thru (30). only by a Holder of a certificated private pilot. Read further on. Signed, A&P retired IA. Regards Mike, info +++++. 40 years late. Why did military aircraft have fabric covered control surfaces ? Bullet holes were easier to cover. Thanks. Army Air Force, B-29, recips, and grease rag holder.
What if you don't want a Looming Mechanic?
The valley is wide but not deep.
Am I the only one not a fan of mike Busch? He’s a big proponent of owner maintenance but he really should read (so should pilots) part 43 appendix A paragraph 30 about preventative maintenance. In fact I’ll paste it on here-
The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type certificate or supplemental type certificate holder's approved special inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary category aircraft provided:
(i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under § 147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training program approved under § 21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and
Don’t spend $5000 training a college grad when, it’s a given they will leave when a better opportunity comes. We had the same issues in hiring when giving overqualified people jobs. Our best retention came from high school grads, and even better with drop outs who had no other options than to build up experience on their resume.
Anything to keep the doors open. Some will work on your lawnmower.
Knowledge of the aircraft systems, are specialized, and now an A&P is complex Airframe or Powerplant defined. Systems are going hi tech. Trouble shoot with your I phone. Ford model A A&P on call. A&P seems not romantic any more. Electric A&P !
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂This all I heard, A&P/IA. Oh, a life member of the EAA.
So the jist of it all is that general aviation is going the way of the homebuilt movement... no two ways about it. In the future, fliers will have to be builders/mechanic just like it was in the beginning. Sounds good to me... safety first, specially when my ass is in the airplane.
Maybe, half of the home builts around me I wouldn’t put my worst enemy in.
Until they start killing occupants and innocent ground dwellers and hurts GA. Not a good idea.
Can't people just appreciate the miracle of the whole thing called aviation and GA and do what it necessary to keep the gears moving? Become a mechanic, crowdfund a maintenance shop, flight clubs. Etc.
I disagree with the segregating of A&P school subjects. No, I will never dope a plane, but its a good right off passage that also teaches you cause and effect of materials. I do mostly business jet maintenance and had no intention of touching a piston plane, but I do and am glad I did that part of the powerplant course. Not only that, but mechanics should have the ability to shift easily to a different work setting. It sounds good to say we should only study what we think we will work on, but the application is limiting and would be hard to implement
So what you're saying is,an A&P mechanic could make a pretty penny fixing planes on a private runway and small shop🤔
Sorry to say I read a lot of pissing and moaning in many of the responses. I have been in aviation for over 40-years now and learned a skill that has served me well. I learned early in my aviation career you can be a wrench turner or rivet pounder as long as you want for a certain wage. I chose to gain additional education and move up the career ladder. I have never been unemployed and always moved for a better position and promotion climbing the career ladder. Not everyone will do this and piss and moan because they are not moving up in their aviation career. If you want to move up educate yourself more and learn new or different skills. Skilled labor is in demand as a current A&P/IA and DME there are positions if you are willing to relocate and get out of your confront zone. Just one mechanics opinion.
This isn't just about careers though. It's also about owner maintenance for those of us sufficiently skilled. I'm a Mechanical Engineer (day job) and a CFII (used to be my day job). Why can't I work on my own airplane? Why is the experimental avenue to me becoming an A&P now closed? What happens when there aren't enough mechanics around to get annuals done on-time? Why does everything (avionics, engines...) cost so much more for certified aircraft, when it came off the same assembly line as the experimental components?
I design supercomputers. Our computer rack structures is primarily all riveted sheet metal. Electronics, cable harnesses, and circuits are a big part of the job. Knowledge of engine design are a core ME competency area (bearings, lubrication, gears, cams, springs, thermodynamics....). Anything I don't know how to do, I can reach out to the EAA and a few local mechanics to learn (if they are willing to), read the books and manuals, watch videos, practice on scrap material...
@@SoloRenegade The simple reason you cannot work on your own airplane is simple it is limitations in the Federal Code of Regulations that protect people on the ground from improper repairs and maintenance from non-certificate Airframe and Powerplant mechanics. The same reasoning is why I am not allowed to design structural bridges, even engineers have limitations to what they can design and put their name on.
Appendix A of part 43 provides limitations for owner maintenance. I happen to be a skilled A&P/IA and I refuse to perform annual inspections of aircraft that owners perform preventive maintenance and servicing beyond Appendix A for pilots. There is a huge risk for mechanics that do not fully inspect aircraft and find all the little things pilots have done outside their limitations.
The cost of liability insurance for the mechanic has priced many IAs out of the business. Every accident or incident almost all pilots or the family members will sue the mechanic and manufacturer. Sue happy people is what has driven the cost of aircraft parts and maintenance through the ceiling.
Many IAs like myself have a few select aircraft we perform annual inspections on ONLY because of the risk of owners not following Appendix lA imitations.
If owners want to do their own maintenance they should attend an A&P school and learn the skill of aviation maintenance and drop the ego.
@@dennypollard8004 Yes, but most such regulations apply to commercial operations, and designing bridges for Hire. I can perform maintenance on my car, on my house and such because I'm not being paid to do it, and it is my personal property.
Attending an A&P school is an unreasonable ask for most people. One, you have to have one local, and you have to have the time to do it. My training as an engineer allows me to Design the parts and aircraft in its entirety. I am fully trained, educated, and experienced enough to do the kind of work I wish to do. In fact, i would argue that as a mechanical engineer I am more qualified. It's one thing to repair/replace things, another thing entirely to design all the parts and systems the mechanics are working on. Don't worry, I'm well aware of what people think of engineers, as I share the sentiment. But I came up from working with my hands in racing, farming, models, military...before i became a pilot/engineer. But how do you determine if a mechanic is skilled enough? I am more skilled and qualified than most mechanics I've met. I've designed things that went into outer space even, and hand built much of them myself since it was a one-off design.
Experimental owners perform their own maintenance all the time and have an comparable accident rate to certified aircraft, with pilot error still being the major cause of accidents.
Your arguments seem to stem from an idea that nobody is smarter than a mechanic, and nobody is qualified to use basic tools unless they did it in a specific building for a certain arbitrary time limit. Kids can rivet panels, turn a screwdriver, learn safety wire. I have college interns do Weight & Balance calculations for our computers (which weigh as much as 5000lbs) with no prior experience. The math is so simple a elementary/middle school kid can do it easily. If you need specialized training spread over 2yrs to do these things...
@@SoloRenegade Title 14 part 43.3 says you can work under the supervision of an A&P that holds the rating. I am okay with that. There is more to turning wrenches to be an A&P mechanic and block 5 on your aircraft Standard Airworthiness Certificate is a major limitation.
All Standard category aircraft MUST meet both of the requirements below to be considered airworthy. If only one item is meet the aircraft would be considered “unairworthy”.
1. The aircraft must conform to its type certificate (TC) (design). This is attained when the aircraft configuration and the engine, propeller, and articles installed are consistent with the drawings, specifications, and other data that are part of the TC. This includes any Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) and repairs and alterations incorporated into the aircraft.
2. The aircraft must be in a condition for safe operation. This refers to the condition of the aircraft relative to wear and deterioration (e.g., skin corrosion, window delamination/crazing, fluid leaks, and tire wear). (Refer to Order 8130.2, chapter 2.)
A&P mechanics are trained in determining how an aircraft meets it type design most owners have no idea what this means of that the weight and balance report the A&P provides and being 100% correct comes from the up to date equipment list. If the equipment list is not current the weight and balance is incorrect.
Removing wheel fairing changes the weight and balance C.G. and rarely show as removed on the equipment list. This goes for all kinds of avionic equipment installed by part number and serial number the arm and weight are seldom or never revised by the owners.
Owners is not allowed to fill out FAA Form 337s for major alterations or repair and will just slap an STC part on the aircraft and never update the AFM/POH, revise the W/B, or update the equipment list.
Even to perform preventive maintenance Title 14 part 32 section 43.13 requires the owner to have current data and required calibrated tools the same as the A&P. Be honest here how many owners do this?
Experimental aircraft are totally different as they are not built to any controlled standard. However, may have a TC engine and propeller that must be maintained to T/C and AD requirement as part of their limitations. Experimental owners have limitations attached to their Special Airworthiness Certificate but most never follow them.
You sound like a common-sense kind of guy and I would recommend you attend an A&P School and get your A&P. I happen to be a Designated Mechanic Examiner (DME) and I test out of a part 147 school facility. The school happens to have a lot of pilots going through the process to obtain their A&P certificates and I test them. All of them are amazed at what they have learned even with their years as pilots and their professional backgrounds.
I will say this for all A&P mechanics they all have to meet a 70% knowledge and skill level or “C” average to be qualified as an aircraft mechanic. Aircraft are built to standards and vehicles are not. Airplanes can’t park on clouds when things go wrong and A&P is held responsible for themaintenance they perform. The A&P certificate is our livelihood and the A&P is really a license to learn and keep learning. I think A&P is a special breed of only 1% of the workforce for good reason.
No kids cannot figure out skin edge distance, prepare rivet holes, and drive rivets to 1.5 diameters for a correct shop head. Or can they install safety properly as most pilots can’t as well. Kids and pilots both pull safety wire “tight” and that is incorrect. Tight safety wire will break all safety wire should be taunt and depending on the wire diameter the twists per inch is different. Safety wire is a basic skill all A&P mechanics must master to pass the A&P test and we do by hand no safety wire pliers allowed so the wire is not nicked. There is a reason the A&P has to attend 1,900-hours of training just to be able to take the tests with me as a DME. There is a lot to know and that does make us special.
@@dennypollard8004 I'm well acquainted with the billboards and advertising. Again, no A&P schools near me, nor do I have that amount of time to spend 2yrs at it given my schedule. There is always more for anyone to learn, about any topic, at any stage of their life/career. That is not a valid argument for preventing owners from doing basic maintenance they are fully capable of doing. Perhaps if the A&P was divided up into subsections that owners could take, enabling them to do only the maintenance relevant to them, that would ease the ridiculous burden. And I comply with regulations, standards and such constantly at my job. I'm the one who designs the parts, makes the drawings, does the calculations, conducts testing... I'm fully capable of doing everything you describe, and more. I also own just about every single book on aircraft maintenance I can find, relevant to the aircraft I care about. I also have an exhaustive library of aerospace engineering books as well. Believe me, myself and others like me are Far more capable of doing the job than you want to believe. Mechanics are not special, they're important, but just mechanics, trained to follow procedures and processes. A wrench is a wrench, torque is torque, rivet is a rivet, a material is a material... Their properties and proper use doesn't change just because it's used on an airplane. You seem to miss the fact that it is people like Me who write the manuals you are required to comply with. This is like Afghanistan, when I collected intel on a mission and it ended up going to the pentagon. Next day we get a mission based on "classified" intel, which I was not permitted to see, even though it was me who had to conduct the mission. I took the report from them anyways, only to find that what I was not allowed to see was the intel I had provided, and which I still had the original copies of everything on my personal laptop. If I am qualified to design and dictate the specs and procedures you are required to follow, then I am qualified to follow them as well.
Kids can learn, and do. We have multiple aviation education programs in my state. If they didn't learn it properly, it's because it wasn't taught properly, or they weren't given enough time to practice it. Have you ever even tried to teach a kid? I teach kids engineering, math, physics, electronics, aerodynamics, soldering.... I can even teach elementary kids algebra in less than an hour, and teach any age calculus 1 if they understand basic algebra. They are fully capable, the weak link is always the instructor.
Perhaps if pilots were allowed and encouraged to do more, and to learn more, they would do things correctly. The current state of affairs in aviation results in undesirable outcomes. Make things needlessly expensive and restrictive, and people try to circumvent the rules. Make it accessible, but tell people they must do it according to standard procedures, and they would. If people were more free to do more, they'd more likely openly seek help and learn proper methods. but keeping basic skills under lock and key and inaccessible results in secret work being conducted. This is standard human behavior, and well understood to those who know history. The law of unintended consequences. Ever consider that weight and balance isn't done as much as it should be because they are not allowed to? Perhaps if they were allowed to, people would update their weight and balance far more often? You are approaching this from a biased viewpoint, and too readily dismiss valid concerns and arguments. Most mechanics are not very friendly, and are not willing to supervise owners. Far too many wont even allow the owners to be present during the annual. This is unacceptable and unprofessional behavior, but far too common. If mechanics wish to continue keeping owners in the dark, owners will continue making shoddy repairs in the dark as well. You insult ALL pilots, and unfairly assume they are all incompetent, yet expect pilots to respect mechanics. You need to learn how to take the win-win stance if you wish to win over people.
The experimental community is proof that all this high and mighty attitude is not warranted. I've seen far more ratty certified aircraft in my days than among the experimental community. Poorly maintained aircraft will always exist in all segments. But restricting knowledge is not a way to reduce errors and encourage following rules.