Would it be possible to list the music used in your video description? And maybe the list of games? That way we can look up some of the games that look or sound really good. In particular, I'd like to know what music plays at 4:51
Step one: be Team Cherry Step two: Profit Step 3: don’t make enough profit to reach Kickstarter goal for a Hornet DLC Step 5: Make it anyway, but as a full game instead
I also have GBA video platform games, showing the games I liked the most, if you want to see it, just search my page (vlad segundo) or click on my icon, or search for "melhores jogos GBA plataforma vlad", thanks!
The best part about that specific ledge in Hollow Knight is that you actually can reach it early if you figure out that you can make a flying enemy nearby notice you, guide it to the ledge, and then bounce off it. Of course not many first-time players will do that, but it's the fact that this option exists for you that makes the world a bit more open.
One of the things that impressed me the most in Axiom Verge was the "stealth tease": A blocked-off path that you _don't_ recognize as a path because you don't even know that it can be unlocked with an ability, let alone how that ability works. And when you finally get that ability, those blocked-off paths seem obvious in retrospect.
That was one of my favorite parts about that game. The visual design of those little paths scream "use me" but if you don't know about that ability, the mystery is confounding. Getting the item is such a "Eureka!" moment that I really love about metroidvanias!
Axiom Verge also played a lot of tricks on one's expectations. The easy example is crawl spaces. Because it knows the person playing is probably familiar with the genre, it knows you're expecting a Morph Ball or something like that and you get the Remote Drone instead. It's like a triple treat. 1. Set up a tease that the player thinks they understand. 2. Subvert the tease by giving them something else instead. 3. Have that something else be a wildly creative way of solving the teased obstacle.
I know it's not technically part of what your saying but music plays a huge role in any game. A beautifully crafted metroidvania with horrible music is a game 99% of the time I wouldn't play. Music and atmosphere is a huge thing in these type of games. SoTN is a good example of a good game with excellent music etc.. It makes a difference. Hollow Knights music is good and the atmosphere is great. If both these games had horrible music and atmosphere I highly doubt they would be as regarded as they are. Just my opinion though.
This is so true to me as well. Sure, I'm a musician so it's normal that music plays a bigger role for me than for someone who's not as passionate about the subject, but I'm a firm believer that music can play as big a role in atmosphere as the art/level design does, sometimes even more so! Those two titles you cited are perfect examples of that, and they happen to be two of my favourite games ever.
The thing I love most about hollow knight in particular, is that the illusion of choice is sometimes actually choice, with all the ways you can go after greenpath it's insane, I've heard some people actually got the tram pass before even the mantis claw.
I didn't even know about the flukenest or the Weaver den until after I beat the traitor Lord, there are so many damn hidden areas to find even after completion that you may have missed, hell, I've seen people beat the dung defender on their first run before even fighting the mantis lords
@@hiddensinix2767 im playing the game rn and that's exactly what happened. I got scared thinking the Mantis Lords would be too hard, that I ended up exploring city of tears firsy. I actually used the defender crest when beating the lords.
On my first playthrough, after getting mantis claws I ignored Quirrell's warning not to fight the mantis lords until later, eventually beat them, then stumbled blindly through Deepnest, found the tram pass, and reached the Ancient Basin under the incorrect belief that I was still on the intended first-time player's critical path, since I was going "forward" the entire time and nothing was stopping me besides the sudden difficulty spike. By the time I reached Ancient Basin I was so disoriented that I died to the flying sentries, enemies I hadn't encountered before, in the room right before the vertical shaft that would've led me to the east side of City of Tears, near King's Station.
The cliff in Hollow Knight is actually a very good example as it shows that you actually can deliver the message without requiring the player to backtrack. Requiring much backtracking is generally considered to be a negative aspect of a Metroidvania; it can fun the breeze through parts to give them a feeling of how much more powerful/skilled they become, or to go "secret hunting", but requiring from the player to do the same part over and over again to advance the main quest is not good. Another cool detail about that cliff part is that it's actually possible to make that jump. You can kite a bug from below and use it as a platform to bounce off with a downward strike. Optional paths that can only be accessed by players who mastered the deep mechanics and giving them sense that they're somewhere where they're not "supposed to be" is also great design. Those are the kind of Metroidvania's that people can play over and over again and still learn/discover new things.
About Castlevania and Swords... there's a lot of unique weapons there. Greatswords with massive hit range but slow, spears that strike longer, knives that strike fast but short. And fists which have giant DPS but very short range. I defeated a lot of bosses using Holy Water and Fists/Baselard.
While the "just another missile expansion" fatigue eventually sets in for everyone in Metroid, the reason that there are so many missile expansions is so that you *don't* have to find them all. If you drastically reduce the number of missile expansions to make them more important, you end up making full exploration mandatory for all but the best players, and that will annoy more people than "just another" fatigue. That is a legitimate risk with exploration-based gameplay... Non-mandatory exploration means non-mandatory rewards for exploration, which can make the rewards for exploration eventually feel disappointing. But making the rewards more important makes full exploration mandatory. Many games even create a messy worst-of-both-worlds middle ground, where most rewards aren't big, but players feel they need to explore absolutely everything anyway because there *might* be things that are.
While I agree with that, I am also of the opinion that more dakka is good dakka and more missiles is good dakka. I also admit that I just finished Hornet’s fight in the second area while in Super Metroid I barely advanced because of pure initial paranoia (were is everyone?!) and other games that called my attention.
i know this comment is old but that's why there are 900 koroks in breath of the wild and like a million moons in mario odissey, which are definitely not metroidvanias but are games that reward exploration
Good Metroidvania Games not mentioned in the video for those looking for something to play (in no particular order and based upon personal opinion): - Ori and the Blind Forest (incredibly beautiful and fast paced) - Salt and Sanctuary (Dark and horrorish; nice aesthetics; Dark souls-ish difficulty with no map, no tutorial and lots of praying; humongous skilltree) - Axiom Verge (crazy arsenal of weapons and abilities; great secrets to find; lovely nod at retro gaming) - Metroid Zero Mission - Metroid Fusion - AM2R (Another Metroid 2 Remake)
@@kamikeserpentail3778 Yeah, I guess. They're sub-par. There's a ton of great Metroidvanias. These don't do anything spectacular. There are more solid MVanias or ones that excel in one area in particular. Metroid Zero Mission is a substitute to Fusion. Metroid Samus Returns to AM2R. ESA to Axiom Verge. Axiom Verge tries to be a Metroid but fails everywhere but where it tries to be something else. The tileset looks like garbage, the combat is a cheese-fest slog of boredom, and the exploration, song and atmosphere didn't grab my attention. It has some interesting ideas but they only appear afterwards in the game. You can play Valdis Story: Abyssal City, Dust: An Elysian Tail, ESA, La-Mulana, some DarkSouls-likes such as Salt & Sanctuary or Blasphemous, Hollow Knight, Castlevanias from the GBA and NDS (Igavanias) + SotN, Super Metroid...
@@Alojzist I absolutely loved Hollow Knight, but I couldn't be bothered to finish Ori and the blind forest. I agree with Valentin. HK is just too good. Especially for more hardcore metroidvania fans
Game maker's toolkit talked about that one critique you had on Hollow Knight, but actually had it a something the game did well. The "stumbling into something important" scenario was an important and purposeful piece of the game. In the video he explains that with the true open world of Hollow Knight, they simply scatter things everywhere, some unimportant, some integral. whenever you get a new ability or "key" of sorts there are many places you can go, a few will lead to charms, shells, or other non important items, but at least a couple are important and very little signposting is used to lead players to those important discoveries. This may sound bad but it only contributes to the (in my opinion) good feeling of stumbling. Team Cherry said that they trust their players to be smart enough to be able to explore on their own, the game already has committed to a it's high difficulty which does make it to hard for some players, but this game was made with more experienced players in mind who probably also have the game knowledge to play the game. (please watch Game Maker's Tool Kit's video on this, he explained it way better)
It's structure. That's the one essential part of any Metroidvania, because the genre is so tied up with exploration-based gameplay. Super Metroid does it so well that it practically substitutes for a story, by separating your experience into dramatic arcs defined by level design rather than plot progression. And yeah, the items you acquire to expand your horizons are closely associated with that, so having interesting ones (hopefully with more than one use per item) is a big deal. By the way, I appreciate your visual shout-out to Alwa's Awakening. I've never seen a gaming UA-camr cover it, but it's really a fun throwback to the older style of Metroidvania we don't see a lot these days.
I agree! Super metroid has best metroidvania level design. If you want talk about level design.. Then Super metroid is good example. It is both linear and open. Hollow knight level-design make people way too confusing and it wastes player time a lot when there are so many long way hallways that leads you death ends. Mix that with bad death system, bad map system and far way save points. You basically created frustration. Some people might like that but for me it was very frustration experience even tough Im big fan of metroidvania genre.
I personally would put Hollow Knight close to Super Metroid, and this is coming from someone who is a long time SM fan and who would consider it one of my top 3 favorite games. They are different, but not that different. Personally, I think that the lack of challenge in SM is one of the few flaws. I think HK is possibly just a bit too hard, but mostly it is the difficulty curve. SM has a perfect difficulty curve, but is overall too easy. HK's difficulty curve jumps too suddenly sometimes. I think that SM has the better area design, and it leads you almost perfectly through the areas, however it does have all the disappointing item finds like regular missile tanks, and since the game is fairly easy, if you find everything it makes it even easier and less threatening. HK has a great system for using items, and almost all items are useful and valuable, but the game does leave you guessing sometimes. Both have excellent ambience. I disagree with the claim that HK only has one horror themed area ad SM is all horror themed because that isn't even true. What SM has is suspense. Only a few places are kind of horror-ish. HK on the other hand has a very weighty, dreary but almost philosophical feel. I would say that HK is more legitimately scary, but it's because you feel more vulnerable. Details like getting hit and not being able to hear anything for a moment add to this.
Regarding what you said about Castlevania - Castlevania KINDA does something like that - in Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow. The Tactical Soul System is almost exactly like what you describe. Some souls are better than the other, but almost every soul is useful in some way (while also adapting the 'subweapon' Castlevania concept in an interesting way). You do find them by fighting enemies though, but because of the extreme enemy variety - some enemies even only appear in one room - it is still worth exploring the entire castle to find all the enemies. In fact, the game doesn't even track completion percentage of items, but it DOES track percentage of souls you have, so it's pretty obvious what was the priority among designers. And of course, Aria has an actually useful shop, so even when you find weak weapons, they're still useful as an extra source of gold. And some weapons are genuinely interesting and unique, like Positron Rifle, Silver Gun or Whip Sword.
Yes! I heard that comment about CastleVania being weak in that area in the video, and instantly thought, "this guy hasn't played a lot of CastleVania then. Although I also thought it was weird him referring to the first literal metroidvania, Symphony of the Night as a bad example of one. I follow his point and get what he's saying. Just, CastleVania is kind of why we have this term in the first place.
Dawn of Sorrow still is one if my alltime favorites. The soul-system is so amazing. You feel like such a badass in the late game. I hope it gets a switch port one day, because most ds emulators are trash.
@@peacockfilletsteak I mean, it's just the name. The genre is much older than SotN - and even than Metroid, the first Metroidvania was probably an obscure game called Brain Breaker from 1985 (or if you allow literal keys and not just abilities into definition, Montezuma's Revenge from 1984).
For some reason people love the soul system. In my opinion the system that used Juste Belmont was very good and underestimated (sub weapons+magic books)
I've recently played through Symphony of the Night and Hollow Knight finally. I have to say while SOTN's items aren't the most rewarding to collect , the secrets you discover are very worthwhile as you try to uncover the larger mystery at hand. When I switched over to Hollow Knight, I really appreciated that character progression was primarily through items (yeah you can save up geo for items, but you aren't leveling up your character with the game's currency like a certain other Metroidvania.) Where Hollow Knight shined for me, is that I found myself using almost every charm, item, or spell I found. So not only was I already desperately exploring for the next greatest item or potential secret, I was unintentionally solving a mystery I wasn't thinking of yet. Both SOTN and Hollow Knight feature more to discover than what you might think during your first playthrough. I believe SOTN's shortcoming for me is that the game was too much on the easy side. When items and upgrades begin feeling trivial, there's less of a reason to explore for secrets; however, the mystery that unfolds can be an even stronger motivator for exploring. So because I didn't care about getting stronger in SOTN, I had a very lackluster ending my first time (which I can safely assume was done intentionally and is not a complaint of the game). Hollow Knight however, I felt compelled to explore from beginning to end. At first it was to become stronger, but about halfway I felt more compelled to explore just to learn about the game's world and because of this had a very accomplished ending. So what makes a good Metroidvania? I believe you helped me get to this conclusion, that a sense of mystery is integral to a good Metroidvania and that the mystery can't exist if I don't feel compelled to explore. All that being said, I can't objectively rank these games as they're all special to me for their own reasons. Thank you very much for this video.
I agree with SOTN being too easy. If you play on 99 luck mode, however, the game becomes amazing. All of a sudden, every spell and item has significant tactical advantage, and you actually need to use consumables, familiars, and spells. As well as keep your armor and weapons upgraded. Until you get the best stuff 70% of the way through. Then it's back to being easy again. Highly recommend for people familiar with the game.
You should check out "An Untitled Story." It's a freeware metroidvania from 2007 by the guy who made Celeste. It's not as long as most commercial metroidvanias (~5-10 hours depending on completion), but it's one of the most impressively large freeware games I've ever played. (Surprisingly difficult, though.)
*"It's an illusion of choice conveyed through gameplay, rather than poorly written dialogue options."* My favourite line explaining why I love metroidvania games and why I don't enjoy "classic" RPG games too much.
I disagree slightly on the interpretation of "guided non-linearity". The example of a ledge that's a bit too high until you get a jumping ability that lets you get over it is not guided non-linearity by itself. Something you _could_ do, if only you had the ability to, is inherently linear, not non-linear. The guided non-linearity comes into play when you finally get the ability and _remember_ the ledge you couldn't get past before. the remembering part is the guide. The ledge forcing the player down a linear path is the guide that tells people that this is worth remembering and coming back to later. The act of forcing the player away from the ledge is not guided non-linearity, but the desire to come back to the ledge later is. A ledge you can't get past isn't a guide away from it. It's a guide over it. As a result, I think "guided non-linearity" + "ability-gating" is a really good definition. Because I honestly can't think of a way to make a game with those two components interacting that's not a metroidvania. A game can have these two components in a way that doesn't have them interact, and such a game would not be a metroidvania; which means it's the interaction between them specifically that causes a game to be a metroidvania. A major problem is the interpretation of these components. A key that opens doors is not an ability, but a gun that _also_ opens doors is. And the illusion of choice is not non-linearity, but the choice you make once the illusion disappears is.
"The guided non-linearity comes into play when you finally get the ability and remember the ledge you couldn't get past before. the remembering part is the guide. " It only becomes non-linear (in a non-optional sense) if you could either go back there later, or take another path entirely and still progress through the game.
Symphony of the night didn't only have swords it also had staves, rods and I think axes. They had different attributes and strengths other than the different swords, shields and different armor bits. And then there's always getting the different items that help push the story forward as well as the different spells and transformation upgrades and traversal upgrades.
Thanks for this video. I bought Hollow Knight during the Holliday sale & am enjoying the hell out it. It's my first metroidvania - I've just never played any before, but it inspired a love in me to want to explore this genre more after I've finished with it. That loop you explained was what made me fall in love as well. As for Hollow Knight's open-endedness I personally like it. I don't mind getting lost. Also Hollow Knight does allow you to purchase badges where you can mark interesting stuff which makes it a whole lot easier to remember. The only thing I would say against Hollow Knight is that the platforming can be a bit crap at times & there really should be more frequent save points, especially right before boss fights. But even though it's frustrating at times, I absolutely love it and am looking forward to exploring this genre after I finish. Thanks for the video.
@@11th_defender51 It does when you consider the Metroid part of Metroidvania, the atmosphere of the games are designed to almost make you feel oppressed and alone, like a "you against the world" situation, if you want someone to actually explain it better Video Game Animation Study (y'know, the guy who made the comment in the first place) has several videos on theming in the Metroid series
@@theenami I don't remember the context for which I said that. Maybe it's because he was saying that atmosphere and isolation were what make a good metroidvania, and I was thinking more about how good the game actually was. I think atmoshpere, power-ups and good exploration are what make a good metroid game, but for non-metroid metroidvania's it would be mainly the power-ups and exploration for me. I think it's because he was thinking in the context of just metroid. And I have watched those vids btw.
It's fun from the perspective of the challenge of finding, but they aren't all that useful. Most notably because SM isn't that hard. It's a minor flaw in a near perfect game, but once you've found everything it isn't that much fun to 100% it again unless you are speed running, and finding everything doesn't do anything else besides make an easy game easier.
Yeah i think that they should be understood as collectibles. They give you a small mechanical bonus, but it's actually finding them that is the true reward for the player. Like Riddler trophies or GTA pigeons. It's practically tradition for Metroid games to have an absurd maximum number of missiles
I played Super Metroid for the first time a few months ago after everyone kept recommending it to all metroidvania lovers. I was pretty disappointed, tbh. The controls and fights are extremely frustrating and outdated. It's all just a bit janky and I ended up resenting the game to a certain degree. I still had fun in the end, though.
Super Metroid it's a really good game, but let's be honest, even with how many things did the first, it hasn't aged exactly well, it's still enjoyable? Depends on who plays it. It stands as the best way to do a metroidvania today? I don't really think so
5 років тому+7
Super Metroid barely aged tbh. Yeah, the controls are a bit clunky but that's all.
One of my favorite parts of SOTN is having an inventory filled with garbage items because they each have their own charm, sometimes special moves to discover, and maybe even secrets! Gimme pizza, peanuts and omelets, knockoff heirloom shields, cursed swords that are useless and shoes that make me taller. Give them all to me!
For anyone who has exhausted every Metroidvania, loves Super Metroid, and loves the more hardcore exploration aspect, I recommend trying out some of the Super Metroid ROM Hacks. Hyper Metroid, Metroid Z-Factor, Super Metroid Redesign and Metroid Phazon Hack are 4 that I had a great time with. I used to search at length for new Metroidvanias I never played, but I got to a point where I played all of the best ones and these ROM Hacks were really refreshing.
Basically just make your player compelled to explore your world, in whatever way that may be. Offering relevant rewards is good, but also just making the world enticing, nice to be in. Make the player want to see what the world has to offer.
You should have used Super Metroid as a perfect example of memorization. That landmark at Kraid's lair for example,it shows you that an important area is around here,that you have to come back after you find a power up...or actually use hidden tecnhiques to reach that area before you even go to find the hi-jump boots : the wall jump and bomb jumping. In fact This is both a great example of memorization, but also about the game letting you create another possibilities even though it has an invisible hand.
While I see what you mean about Metroid eventually devolving into "find all the missile packs," Metroid still continues to be the only metroidvania that gets one thing right. Its mechanics allow for sequence breaks if you're skilled enough. That ledge you can't reach to get to kriad because you don't have hi jump boots? You don't ACTUALLY need them. You can get up both by wall jumping and bomb jumping. These aren't glitches or exploits, they're intended mechanics in the game. Even Metroid fusion, the most linear Metroid game, has a very complicated shine spark sequence that you can follow to get back to an early part of the level you "weren't supposed to be able to go back to," but once you get there, the game actually acknowledges exactly what you did to reach that point and you get an extra bit of dialogue from Adam. Metroid rewards you for paying attention and pushing samus's abilities to their limit.
The best part about Hollow Knight's design is that some of the areas are accessible even before the abilities it obviously intends you to have are obtained, by simply understanding its other mechanics. The Pogo Jump's utility usage is insane, not just because of how you can use it to access early areas (like the Hornet ledge mentioned in this video using the Vengefly beneath) but also one minor addition to it that actually amounts to a pretty substantial opening of other areas as well, which is making the nail's hitbox slightly wider than the Knight's body hitbox, allowing you to pogo jump up wall spikes by being just close enough to them not to hit them with your body. I used this to get to Brooding Mawlek early for example before having Mantis Claw for an early mask shard (tough fight though), and keep in mind this was my first, blind playthrough. The utility usage of this was so intuitive I thought a lot of accessing early stuff was by design as well, specifically due to the layouts of some of the rooms. For example, in Forgotten Crossroads there is another mask shard hidden in the Goam (giant spiked worm) room in the ceiling, the hole being just too high to reach without the double jump. But to the right of that hole, behind three Goams that burst from the ground, is a lone Vengefly that you can lead to the hole and pogo jump off of to get up there early. Thing is (and this is the room layout part I mentioned) the Goams can actually kill this vengefly, meaning you have to time when you get it to come after you to where it passes through the three Goams without getting killed, in order to then be able to pogo off of it. This turned early acquisition of this mask shard into a legitimate puzzle. I can only assume this sort of thing is by design - and if so, it's freaking brilliant because this sort of circumvention of the usual gated progression behind the acquisition of abilities is one of the most natural means to progress that game mechanic I have ever seen - and despite that, there is still no way to completely sequence break the game, so it still lends itself more to the exploration component by rewarding lateral thinking and the skill to perform these things, without coming off as exploitative or game-breaking - maintaining its overall structure but quite a bit more free.
I'd kinda like to hear your thoughts on Ori and the Blind Forest and Toki Tori. Toki Tori is a Metroidvania where instead of getting abilities you gain knowledge that helps you reach areas you couldn't reach before (which makes it somewhat unique in that aspect) and Ori and Blind Forest is simply extremely beautiful and feels great to play.
@@dinar8749 Your crazy! I must play hollow knight but I doubt it can beat Super Metroid. Super Metroid will forever be the greatest game ever. I dont really believe what others say about games. Many claim Axiom Verge was better than Super Metroid. I played it and honestly it wasn't even close, it was actually pretty bad... Sci fi is must favorite type of game & hollow knight is just too cutesy compared to Super Metroids dark, atmospheric, lonley world where you fight massive creepy bosses
Definitely on the side of liking how hollow knight does things in particular here. The feeling of getting lost in places is good as it makes the journey that much more memorable I feel and just the other day I ended up basically going to the city of tears only after surviving through three completely different areas that lead up to it and then finding out that it was where I was supposed to go anyway (and it was literally a few easy screens to get there had I gone the "Intended route) was a good discovery as it truly made me appreciate just how open the game is.
One of the things I would love to see more time given to that I've actually not seen yet. Is the discussion on Metroidvania enemies, and how they can assist or impede backtracking. What I mean by that is, take your average Metroid game, and the enemies are less "Actively hostile hunters" and more environmental pieces that lightly damage you on contact. They follow very simple fixed movement patterns. Moving left to right. Bouncing left to right. Moving around a platform. And they tend to die in one or two shots. I feel this is a very important point that makes backtracking in the Metroid series so smooth and quick compared to other Metroidvanias. With the enemies being set pieces, there's many rooms throughout every zone of the game that you can just completely ignore them and jump over them with no difficulty. So if you want to go from Crateria to Norfair quickly, it's not that difficult to you. And even if you do hit the enemies a few times, you take very little damage. In comparison, I recall Axiom Verge in particular to be exceptionally tedious to backtrack due to how to hard to kill so many of the enemies were and how much damage they dealt if they hit you. Those leaping zombie things were a nightmare to get past on multiple entries to a room, as they would chase you around, and they had high HP making them hard to kill even toward the end of the game. It made me unwilling to spend time exploring and backtracking as it took way way too long to fight all the enemies, taking all that damage, for such little reward. I've not seen any Metroidvania have such simple easy to avoid enemies like Metroid does. They all seem to fall into a pattern of heavily emphasising combat, and gearing the majority of upgrades toward combat, not mobility.
"Lowering the maximum amount of Ammo that you can discover" >Implying hard mode isn't a thing in Fusion and Zero Mission Seriously tho, that example where you cannot reach the ledge in Super is a horrible example since you can just bomb jump to get to Kraid early. Many of the charm of the Metroid series that puts it in above the other Metroidvanias is it's ability to make you feel like you're cheating and getting into an area early (Beating Ridley before Kraid, getting some upgrades early) Other games just add hard enemies for your current abilities just to make you feel like you're getting somewhere you shouldn't be early but that's just the cheap way to do it. Besides, getting all those missiles upgrades and energy tanks without detouring is crucial to make the game more replayable.
That attempted greentext is a poor counter point. Most of the metroid games give you an absurd amount of ammo if you search for it. It's practically traditional for completionist players to have about 5 times as many missiles and bombs as they could possibly need. I agree with the rest of your post though. That's one reason I dont consider Metroid Fusion as a true metroidvania; it's almost impossible to sequence break and truly impossible to sequence break in a meaningful way (i.e. early items). I think that Super Metroid is the quintessential metroidvania
The cliff in Greenpath isn't really an arbitrary lock because, if you're good enough at the game, you can actually reach it before obtaining the dash ability (by pogo-jumping off a flying bug if it's at the right position).
Hollowknight provides a solution for the complaint at 1400. And that is the ability to mark the map with interesting locations. This feature saved me a bunch of times.
One of the most memorable moments in Hollow Knight for me is when you find those pink bouncy things. You arent told how to use them but once you figure it out it comes as second nature. Not only that, it boosts the player's confidence and self-reliability. HK knows when to not hold your hand and when to reward the player.
...The only time I got stuck in the entire game is on the pink mushrooms. Assumed I needed another ability to progress, ended running in circles for a while, got enought money for lumafly lantern, got dreamnail, then I finally checked a guide. I think this particularly part was just plain bad design. They are no other point in the game where the HK doesn't tell you you have an ability.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 It took me a good 20 mins or so to figure it out. After running out of ideas I thought "what happens if I attack it?" When it sent me flying back I felt like a dumbass for not figuring it out earlier. I think we as players need to be more willing to try shit out.
I honestly think that people are only looking at the Metroid part of the term “Metroidvania” Castlevania has completely different design than Metroid. Linear levels with optional upgrades sprinkled in between. In that case, Cave Story is a perfect Metroidvania imo. It’s a fairly linear game with back tracking and though effective but optional upgrades. Heck! I’ve seen people beat the entire game with nothing but the polar star! Now hear me out, I freaking love Metroid! But if that’s the definition for a Metroidvania, might as well change the term to remove Castlevania altogether! Metroid-like would be a nice term.
Do you not know of SOTN or the GBA and DS Castlevania trilogies? They are non linear with utility upgrades, basically metroids with more gory enemeies and rpg elements.
Kuasocto do you know of the Pinball games and Ferderation Force? They have elements that would define them as a spin-off. So are the games your talking about.
@@MsQuote Those are not spin offs, they were the only castlevania games released for a long period of time. They're just another type of Castlevania. By your logic 3d mario games would also be only spin offs, only 2d being the "true" mario.
Kuasocto sorry I misread your reply! Yes those games exist and there’s no real “true” formula. However my point isn’t on the Castlevania series itself, but more on the ideology that linear game design suddenly prevents an indie game from being a Metroidvania. If you ask me, as long as you feel powerful by the end of your journey, by finding that one item, or trading a valuable item for a better one. To me, it’s a combination of atmosphere and design based around said atmosphere.
Honestly I've never gotten the term Metroidvania. Metroid established the formula first and from the start Castlevania just adopted it after several linear games. Like I love Castlevania but I don't think the genre deserves to be named after the series.
according to "sllypper" Axiom Verge is an awful MV... Axiom Verge? A bad Metroidvania? What? It's by far not perfect and it's easily exceeded by other games of that genre but damn, it's definitely still a good game. My favorite MV actually because it was the game that made me realise I love Metroidvanias. The way sllypper talks about AV sounds like it's factual and objective but I can assure that he has no idea what he's talking about, because literally everything he mentioned is the complete opposite for me. I love the tileset, even more so the music, the combat may be a little lackluster but the sheer size and diversity of the arsenal is astounding and brings creative uses into the game (the flamethrower is really op tho but still kinda fun) especially in corporation with the address disruptor. The game is filled to the brim with creative ideas and concepts that definitely make up for the somewhat bad story (not the lore, just the actual story) and potential lack of other attributes I can't think of right now. I think people also forget that Axiom Verge was a one man project _entirely_ and in every aspect that is honorable. sllypper knows shit about Axiom Verge! rant off
Okay I have to interject something here. When you made the comment about Castlevania Symphony of the Night and mentioned that one of the issues was that weapon upgrades always went from strong sword stronger sword strongest sword that isn't the truth that all there are doesn't of different weapons in the game many of them are side grades or down grades in strength but offer different ways to dispatch your foes. Such as nunchuck flail different types of throwing discs katanas and swords that offer a different style of slashing mechanic not to mention all the one use items. One of the coolest things in Symphony of the Night was after you play through the second playthrough in a row you were able to purchase an item call the duplicator which allowed you to replicate all the one you saw items in the game which gave you countless amounts of combinations in ways which you could kill your enemies
But that isn't really the point, you see. It's true that there are several unique weapons that have special effects or skills that aren't always obvious at first sight, but first of all, you would often have to press random inputs in order to find out whether these weapons had any special skills (unless you were reading a guide of some sort that told you what inputs to use). Secondly, even weapons with special skills were often found at a time when they no longer were useful (Sword of Dawn being such an example, those skeleton summons are hardly useful in the inverted castle). In reference to an item you mention, the nunchucks, by the time you actually collect them, they're effectively worthless as you would likely already have found weapons far more useful than that (and to collect them safely, you'd need a well-hidden item, Holy Relic, adding to the frustration). The novelty factor of weapons with special skills can be interesting, but outside of a few, such as Alucard Sword's warp slash, most of them are exactly that: novelty effects. As for the duplicator, it's certainly true that having an item like that can mix things up by giving you infinite consumable items, but as you stated, it's only available after the completion of the game. Now imagine if such an item existed in a game that didn't hold your interest... you would never have found out about it since the game wouldn't have held your interest long enough to even complete it. Now don't get me wrong, I love SotN as it's one of the games I grew up with, as well as being one of the few games I used to speedrun, but the point being made in the video is that sometimes the games we love have faults, and it's often a fault of SotN and other Castlevania Metroidvanias that give you items after they've ceased to be useful, and this can cause some frustration since it's typically the sensation of 'I explored to the dead end of this obscure area just to find a weapon that is objectively useless? Blarg!' TL;DR: While there are several weapons with special skills, they often are novelty effects where simple attacks can perform even better. Many weapons are found at a point in the game where they are likely out-classed by what you already possess, despite their special skills. The duplicator, though interesting, can only be bought in subsequent playthroughs as a 'Replay' item, but this point is moot since the game must have held your interest long enough first for you to complete it; otherwise, you would never have known about it.
Yep, like Ze Bug said. Think of it that way: WHAT IF in Castlevania, you would get different types of weapons like a sword and a flail and others, pretty soon in the game. And then what you find are damage upgrades to sword weapons (or even bonus strength upgrade so ALL weapons deal more damage, regardless of type). So, even if you find it at the beginning of a game or at the end of a game, it ALWAYS actually helps you get stronger. Wouldn't that be a lot better than just finding crappy weapons?
Often I found that even if you didn't mash buttons or looked it up different weapons still had versatility. Some had range over power or power over speed etc. This gave in a way a degree of difficulty you could apply to any given area. I found a few locations myself where I would drop to a so called weaker weapon either for the fun of it or because it was more effective for what I needed to do in the area. For over 80% of the game I thought the shield rod was a worthless item but by the time I finished the game and started replaying the final fight I put it in and then found out its ability.
Anyone else LOVE Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin? I feel like that game is really underappreciated. My favorite metroidvania. The story was better than most in the genre and the interplay of the two characters was novel. The painting levels also provided much environmental variety. Am I on my own island with this, or are there others who think this game has become a forgotten gem?.
in castlevania aria of sorrow, mid-lategame exploration rewards begin giving you swords of a bit more elemental nature; stronger against certain enemies, weaker against others. you've got a sword with holy damage that does less than a sword with ice damage but if you're fighting a tough boss with a weakness to holy damage it makes you think 'hmm i think ill try my holy weapon'
I disagree with you on Order of Ecclesia. The detached world still has secrets that you need to find, and I feel that it makes the world feel bigger, if not as interconnected.
Hollow knight is my favorite metroidvania, but not only that it's also my favorite game and the first game i ever 100% and the reason why it is all those things to me is because it never failed to suprise me with new bosses to fight, new location to explore, new enemies to master and new bugs to meet, all this together creates an amazing world, but the thing that made me never give up on it was that it never reached out its hand and made it easier for me and because of that when i found a new ability or i finaly defeated a hard boss felt extra rewarding and acomplishing!! And in my opinion hollow knight is perfect in every single way and when the hornet dlc comes out im gonna have to git gud again!! (still need to 112% lel)
I think that Hollow Knight's nonlinearity once you reach 1/3rd into the game, is something that I wouldn't understand people criticizing. Hollow Knight's nonlinearity means that there are multiple ways to reach areas (some being obvious, some requiring abilities, some require fighting a boss / mini-boss, and some requiring being more observant for hidden paths). This means that there are way fewer opportunities to get stuck, since you won't be immediately forced to look for one specific ability. As you unlock more of the map, you'll be naturally compelled to tread into the unexplored areas, which only unlocks more potential paths through familiar, and alien locations. Hollow Knight's exploration after the 1st - 3rd functions like an interconnected tree, rather than a series of linear soft locks until you get the next exploration-based ability.
I like how for hollow knight you can skip the double jump for a good long bit of the game if you just bounce of the enemy's head, or bounce off the breakable environment. my brother was speechless when I told him how I got past with out double jump.
I clicked so fast on this video! As always, good video! They are always so interesting and well made ☺️ (Also it's totally fine to talk about Hollow Knight a lot, it's a masterpiece)
Not to mention you can see just a little gap on the map in Hollow Knight what makes you remember there is a gap you cannot reach yet which leads you to an unknown area you cannot see on the map - brilliant !
My goodness, are we really at the point where "kids these days" think any 2-D side-scroller is a metriodvania? ((Hey, remember that classic metroidvania series from the '90s, Commander Keen? LOL! Not.)) Dead Cells is very clearly a rogue-alike. Great game. Great rogue-alike. Not a metroidvania at all. I've been enjoying the heck out of Hollow Knight, it reminds me of many of the elements I enjoyed in Bloodborne.
Diavo Voltaggio map to explore with ability upgrades to open up new paths and areas with weapons upgrades that you can buy for an individual run / permanent upgrades that you can buy for future runs. I’d argue that up until you beat the HotK boss the first time / get all the ability upgrades, it’s a Rogue-Metroidvania. Then after you have all the upgrades (20-40 hours into the game), it’s more of a Rogue-like.
@@systemafunk but Deadcells is barely a procedurally generated game, the areas of the game don't change in any real way, each time you play the enemies and traps are in different locations but specific things are always the same, and they can be found in about the same spot every time. But I will agree with the comment above that after you learn where everything is , it's just a rogue like.
Wario Land 3 was my first Metroidvania. Like Order of Ecclesia, it sections off each part of the game world into separate levels. However, unlike every other Metroidvania I've played since, the levels themselves change as you progress through the game. The idea of the game is to get keys in the level which unlocks chests containing a treasure. In the early game, there's a whole bunch of places in these levels you can't access yet. However, getting the right treasure will allow you to change the landscape of the area these levels are in. For instance: Finding an axe, which is used to cut down a tree and allows you to access the next level. There are also actual powerups as well, but that's to be expected. I recommend it.
Super Metroid isn't that fun to try and max out items on, except for the sheer challenge of finding everything, however what makes Super Metroid great and a great example of the "Metroidvania" is this: It leads you where you need to go extremely well without forcing you. It tells a story without a single word of in game text. The ambience is incredible. Possibly even better than Hollow Knight. The challenge curve is just right. Now, in my opinion the game could be more difficult overall, but the actual challenge progession is very natural. Castlevania: SotN is, in my opinion not as good as either SM or HK, however it is still very good. The main reason is because the game is just so much fun to play. It is fast paced with a lot of great memorable areas. Yes, there are lots of throw away items. However there are several classes of items and a good reason to at least have several go to weapons: A knife or fist weapon - not as powerful per hit or as long range, but good for slow moving enemies or powerful single enemies without tons of defense A medium range weapon like a staff or sword. Good at taking on multiple enemies at once due to the increased range and decent speed. A large two handed weapon - good at taking out flying enemies like bats or medusa heads, due to the wide range of swing Also, there are sharp weapons and blunt weapons. Sharp weapons are better at some enemies than others, and also cause them to bleed, which you can use to restore your life. Blunt weapons are better against skeletons and heavily armored enemies. Finally, there are different elements on some weapons. For example, the holy staff is extremely powerful due to it's range and the fact that it damages a lot of undead by a lot. SotN suffers from balance issues and there are still a lot of useless items, but there's a lot good going on with it still.
The "Vania" coming from the rpg-esque Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Lots of drone enemies. Large boss fights. Leveling up. Purchasing new weapons and tools, etc.
Have you ever played iconoclast? i feel like it is a little linear for a metroidvania but i think it makes up for it with a great story and puzzles.It has a limited amount of upgrades and weapons but because it i feel like the tools you do have get more use in more creative ways other than a item you use for one puzzle and throw away never to be used again later.
I started paying SOTN when it came out. This was a couple years before I got internet access and had the temptation to look up guides. When I by chance discovered that you could play the entire castle upside down it was literally one of the most rewarding experiences I ever had, and have never gotten that excited about a game since. I was 13 at the time as well so i'm sure oxytocin and dopamine had something to do with that.
This is a great video but I did not even know people were calling these other games Metroidvanias. That sort of surprises me that people were having trouble with that distinction. Great video but I am a little dissapointed at the lack of mention towards Ori and the Blind Forest/Will of the wisps. I know these other games just suited your points better I am just a tad disappointed my favourite Metroidvania was excluded.
Agreed. Ori is definitely the best metroidvanias I've played. I understand why he didn't include it, though, since Ori just barely skirts the line between what is and isn't a metroidvania. Personally, though, I think the fact that it skirts that line is its greatest strength. Ori recognizes that not everyone likes to explore and recognizes that not everyone who likes to explore has the *memory* or *time* to explore, so its solution is to make a strongly linear storyline with no exploration needed. Though it's not required, exploration is encouraged - to find upgrades, backstory, secrets, spirit wells, etc. Then, its map is perhaps one of the best that I've used. It's so powerful and informative that I have little trouble navigating and figuring out which things I haven't unlocked yet. This cuts down on the time needed to explore side paths, but on the other hand, the quality of that time spent is drastically higher (in comparison, exploration in Hollow Knight primarily just consists of wondering around in circles racking your brain to figure out which path you haven't taken yet). This design made 100%-ing Ori such a pleasure for me. That (coupled with its fantastic gameplay design) is why I consider Ori to be the best metroidvania I've played
One model i found interesting was in Tunic, where the reward for exploration was information. In Tunic, everything outside of a few lines of text is written in a cryptic indecipherable language, forcing you to learn the game as you go. An interesting result of this is that almost all of the game is available from the start - theres tons of hidden passageways from the starting area only discoverable from the other end, many essential items can be unlocked from the getgo, and even one of the endgame systems is only a fancy set of button combinations.
The Witness is a lot like this. I (perhaps unhelpfully) call these kinds of games "metroidbrainia", where the only thing that stops your progression is more player knowledge as opposed to mechanical roadblocks.
Have you ever played Castlevania: Circle of the Moon? I think it did a better job than the Castlevania games you mentioned, at least in regards to limiting item drops to make those drops feel rewarding; mostly from the fact that they don't have any additional weapons in the game, just the starting whip. Progression is enabled through a set of items to collect (allowing things like double jump and wall jump) and combat strength and versatility is largely enabled through a set of magic cards that drop from specific monsters that can be used to do new things in combat.
I agree with both of you. It is one of the more fluid map designs in the Castlevania franchise, even if the map is structurally made to be similar to symphony's. The difficulty is closer to classicvanias' difficulty which I appreciate a lot. Getting one of the ice cards breaks the game in many ways I enjoy.
it was a major studio game, made by a team of long time professionals with a decent budget. Most modern indy games especially in the Metroidvania genre are made by pretty small teams usually funded by a kickstarter. And the ones that aren't obviously look better in particular games like Ori which are made by Triple A developers under an "indy" banner.
@@drop0ut606 a few of the interviews with Iga i've seen kinda of contradict that though, from my understanding SoTN was a "Hail Mary" that had like 10 full time coders and a shit ton of revolving door helpers that would occasionally come in and add stuff until they eventually ran out of budget and time. Though to be fair most modern indies are made of teamsof like 3 people but the tech and development process is a loooot smoother now than the early 90's
The sprite animation is one of the biggest reasons for this, at least to me. The smoothness with which Alucard moves, along with the trailing ghost images, make it look more detailed than it is. Even older games, like Aladdin and Donkey Kong Country on the SNES, still look good today despite their low resolution because they really flow well. Super Metroid went so far as to have different sprites and animations for each side of Samus, as well as frontal and 3/4 frames to animate when she turned around. That was HUGE in the 16-bit era, literally, as I'm pretty sure it was the largest capacity game ever released for the SNES. Of course SotN also had excellently drawn backgrounds that used well shaded tiles, rather than heavily contrasting repeating blocks. It's those small details that make it stand out.
Hey IngeniousClown, love your analyses. I would like to know all of your favorite metroidvanias; a top # metroidvanias video would do well, but if that's not in the cards would you please share your list? I want the leading expert's opinion!
Great video! Thanks for posting and sharing your viewpoints. I do have some counterpoints to share specifically about Hollow Knight and the issues I've faced with it. I think my personal main issue for HK is the lack of clear identifiers for progress. -The impassable armored bug at 2:23 - an unbeatable monster that looks like you maybe could defeat it, although you probably die from it first. Aside from trying and dying, running back and picking up your drops, and trying and dying again, the only thing that pulls you away from it initially is that you have other areas to explore at this point. So the player is now left feeling punished and has to go through the slog of running back to find out its just a gated area, and might be wondering if they could defeat this creature or were they just doing something wrong, or perhaps need something else to defeat it. -The cliff that is referenced over and over, at 7:23 you show why the cliff is meaningful, but even based upon your own play you jump down as the characters on the ledge, you head to the right, and then back left and the character is gone. You should have seen the character. However, you may have seen it, you may have not. Now you have a ledge that looks like you should be able to make the jump, but instead of feeling like you need an upgrade to get there, just makes you feel like you're not doing the jump correctly as there are other platforms and obstacles that play part in this exact jump as you fall further down. -The switch at 8:34 that is hidden BEHIND UI elements. I really don't need to go into detail about why something that sorta blends into the environment that you need to hit being obstructed by the UI is a bad idea. These are basically the first three examples shared of gated exploration... and all three are a bit obtuse in design. They're not clear, they're not clean, they're not memorable. By comparison, the jump in Super Metroid at 2:21 is clear. There aren't other obstructions in the area or places to fall. Even though the jump is close, the environment leads you to believe that this area is something more than just a ledge on top of other ledges you cannot reach. Much in other ways there might be a small gap you need morph ball or a way to slide or shrink down to - it is obvious. This is important as Hollow Knight's artwork is so beautiful with design and layers that it needs way for those blockers to be more visible.. without breaking the immersion. This is why I can't simply praise Hollow Knight because after that, you're now doubting yourself as a player. In games of exploration you want that feeling of self-assurance as you turn around and walk away from that barrier. Thanks again for the video and hopefully it answers questions for a lot of people on what a Metroidvania is!
I'll give you the switch hiding behind UI is awkward, but your first two counter-points (the bug and the cliff) sound more like a combination of inexperience and stubbornness. If a game gives you paths to explore and you come across something you can't currently handle after giving it a REASONABLE try, the only logical response is to realize that it's not possible to pass yet and you should probably try to explore elsewhere. There's nothing punishing about that, it's teaching the player. There's no reason to die from that bug. There's no reason to think you actually can make that jump after trying a few times. Yes, the Super Metroid jump is clear, but not every gate can be presented like that otherwise you'd have a genre that would get very stale very quickly. Hell, I'd even argue that falling into a platform further down reinforces the fact that you can't make that jump yet. It's practically TELLING you to "try this way"!
@@ingeniousclown Experience tells me that not all games are created equal, and in so many games we have passageways surrounded by awkward platforming. Often these setups are to encourage players to learn new ways of adventuring, perhaps jumping while attacking to extend the jump distance, etc. So when HK sends you off you can either get up and try again... which at that stage is not stubbornness... its trying to learn. The other option is to move on. Moving on is fine, but if you're experienced with Metroidvanias, you may move on with doubt, and due to the lack of clarity rather than "I'm going to get stronger and come back"... you're kind of left wondering. As you mentioned, the NPC is a great indicator that is where you want to get to. It clearly looks like that is the place to be, not an indication of WHEN you should, so as helpful as it could be, it could also extend that doubt. I don't agree with less-obtuse gates getting stale, they held up in Castlevania (except.. maybe Simon's Quest... kneeling for a tornado? Come on! That's obtuse!), most of the post-SOTN's do well, including the DS games. Ultimately we may be splitting hairs here. We clearly disagree, and that is okay! I'm not saying Hollow Knight isn't a great game, there are however, definitely reasons why people seemingly fall off of Hollow Knight early, and this is exactly what happened to me. Thanks for the reply and discussion :)
I'll grant that Hollow Knight is harder to follow than something like Super Metroid, and that is a possible flaw, but it's really not that bad. Once you get used to the game, even the switch you were talking about is a no brainer. As far as seeing Hornet, well, if you are actually playing you will see her. If you forget, then that's just a fault in the person playing. "Searching for a way around" is a core part of all Metroid style games, and Super Metroid has similar elements. What happens when playing the game is that you see her and you either are able to progress in the slightly different direction (by going down), or if you can't, you go a different direction, get the required item, and then check back in the area to try to progress.
It’s kind of annoying how the way you describe improving the Castlevania sotn weapon system was actually implemented in aria and dawn. It’s like, are we a joke to you
"Utility Gated Progression" and "Guided Non-Linear Exploration"; such excellent descriptions. I am fairly confident the 5 stages (so far) that we have assembled and labeled as "Metroidvanias" live up to those terms. I watch videos, like this, to refine our craft.
Based on your definition of a metroidvania, Rain World could classify as one. Progression in the game comes in two forms: learning more about the game and seeing solutions to problems you simply didn't recognize before, and a few major character abilities acquired throughout the game. The interesting thing about the game is that the tools you acquire to access previously gated content can just as easily be lost through death. This adds a lot of weight to the gameplay and makes those tools that much more meaningful to the player. I have never seen another game capture the dread, wonder, and awe of exploration as well as Rain World does. The environments are so beautiful yet haunting, the enemies peaceful yet terrifying, the gameplay simple yet yields many options. Hollow Knight is a brilliant game that builds on other metroidvanias; Rain World is a beast of its own that is unlike any other game.
Imo metriodvania gatekeeping is stupid. Games like dead cells play like a metriodvania, feel like a metriodvania, feature 95% of the genre's tropes, but aren't considered one by some people because they don't exactly fit into the perfect metriodvania mold. We shouldn't want every game to fall into a perfect metriodvania mold though, innovation and exploration of the genre is what keeps the genre interesting and fresh. At it's heart, a metriodvania really is just any side-scroller that focuses on exploration and combat to some degree, where some mechanic or another, be it ability upgrades or other roadblocks such as gear or difficulty, roughly guides the player. Hell, dark souls captures the soul of a metriodvania without even being 2d. I really think the whole argument over whether this game or that game is a metriodvania or not is just so incredibly stupid. Psuedo-metriodvania or actual metriodvania, it doesn't actually matter as long as the game gives off the same thrill of exploration and combat as a metriodvania does. I actually bought rain-world on PC, but I haven't played it yet. I'll have to try it out.
@@jollygoodolgenderneutralin5152 Dead Cells doesn't play or feel like a metroidvania though, it's completely lacking in any sort of "oh I got a new thing to go reach that stuff I saw before!" backtracking due to every level being self-contained and what little exploration there is doesn't amount to much since the maps aren't actually that random and most of the dead ends don't have any rewards at all (you're just as likely to find a level up sitting out in the open as hidden in some out of the way passage). These are crucial aspects to what makes metroidvania games feel like metroidvania games, if you're going to throw those out the window then you might as well call every single platformer that ever allows you to move in more than one direction a metroidvania. You can go down pipes in Super Mario Bros, it must be a metroidvania! I get the point you're trying to make, people should just focus on what makes individual games interesting and unique. That's fair. However genres exist for a reason, if I'm looking to buy something like Symphony of the Night then why would I want to accidentally pick up a game that is nothing like it? That's not a hypothetical either, I've actually purchased games because of the metroidvania label that turned out to not at all be the type of game I was trying to buy simply because people don't know how to use words (including Dead Cells, but that wasn't too disappointing since it is just an awesome game anyway so I was already hooked by the time I realized people had no idea what they were talking about). Put yourself in that situation. Let's say you're feeling nostalgic for Street Fighter or something so you decide to buy a new fighting game... and you end up with a first person shooter. It has fighting, it must be the same thing right? Why are you disappointed?! Words have meaning and there's nothing wrong with clarifying that meaning in videos like this so that people can use words more accurately and thus better communicate information. There's literally no downside to being able to find the things you're looking for.
@@TheSquareOnes crucial flaw with you argument: dead cells literally has "aw I saw that before and now I can do it" moments because of the abilities you unlock that you can then use on a subsequent run to access a previously unaccessible area. The map always puts certian roadblocks in about the same location, allowing for you to quickly find something you previously couldn't do. Also you fail to understand the scale of things here. Metriodvania as ingenious or whatever his name is would define it is incredibly specific and limited. Too limited for innovation. Too limited for true variety. If everything strives to be exactly like super metriod, then everything becomes dull. Allowing games like dead cells, which mind you still shares a good 95% of the genre's traits, does not overload the genre and make it meaningless. Remember what I said , a metriodvania should be an exploration heavy side-scroller that features combat and some way to gate or guide the player organically. That's actually still incredibly specific, it's not going to make you mistake celeste for a metriodvania because it has levels that you can explore. Infact my definition still doesn't include rogue legacy, since it has no gating or organic guiding system. It has no "gotcha now I can do this" so it still doesn't fit in my apparently "over bloated" definition. All I'm saying is a genre where the requirements are so incredibly specific is doomed to repeat itself, Ori subverted metriodvania expectations by having no boss battles and focusing on platforming yet was amazing, dead cells is a roguelike but it still stays true to most other metriodvania mechanics, salt and sanctuary doesn't really have abilities but it has a metriodvania style world where you're instead gated by your gear, skill or by a boss, allowing for a similar backtracking "now I can do this" effect. Do you see what I mean? A slighter wider genre let's innovative titles thrive while keeping the genre limited a still incredibly specific gameplay loop.
@@jollygoodolgenderneutralin5152 No, it doesn't have that because it's a linear sequence of levels that are randomly generated every time. That sounds like nitpicking but it really isn't, you can never go back to do a thing you saw before because that thing was deleted from existence the instant you left. You do gain new abilities (although only two of them actually change how you play the game, the rest are just glorified keys) but you only use those to open up things that you'll find in the future, that's not backtracking it's just leveling up. Also as I said before the game really has next to no exploration, which seems like a pretty big flaw if you're trying to cast it as an exploration game. The levels all generate in roughly the same ways which you should quickly learn so that you can dash to the exit in as little time as possible, you'll note that they actually encourage this style of play by incorporating a speedrunning system into the core gameplay. If you do explore you'll find that most branches don't actually lead anywhere but to more enemies and that even if you take the time to hunt down every single level up you're often just breaking even with the reward you would have gotten from ignoring everything and reaching the exit in under the time limit. There's no real incentive for exploration and never any backtracking, you can either do a thing on this run or you can't. I've only got 33 hours on the game which is far from a lot but that really just demonstrates how little there is to see, I was done "exploring" somewhere between 5-10 hours. Minor spoilers for people that haven't played that much, also it's worth pointing out that while there are alternate levels that unlock as the game goes on there's really no reward for doing that either. You see some cool new mechanics and enemies, fight some new bosses, get some new keys that will make future runs more profitable and gain two new abilities. After you get those things there's really no reason to ever go back into those levels again unless you're hunting an item or just want to mix things up so after the brief "hey, I wonder what's over here" discovery the game goes back to being completely linear. None of this makes the game bad, in fact it's awesome. The most damning argument is that it plays nothing like metroidvania which is its main strength, it's a risk management game in which you try to rush through as quickly as possible and get as many upgrades as you kind while minimizing the resources lost in the process. It doesn't resemble the gameplay of a metroidvania in the slightest because it isn't trying to. I'm not sure why you'd even want to put it in the same box since the people who are trying to play exploration games won't get it here and the people who are trying to find intense, fast soulslike speedrunning aren't going to find it under the wrong label. Ok, so all of that was Dead Cells. Now regarding how narrow the definition is you've really shown for yourself that that is false by bringing up Ori. It's definitely possible to make a metroidvania that adheres to the old ability gated progression but does something totally different with it. Super Metroid plays differently from Aria of Sorrow, which is different from Ori, which is different from Super Panda Adventures, which is different from Valdis Story, which is different from Axiom Verge, which is different from Owlboy, which is different from The Messenger, which is different from Iconoclasts. Hell, Yoku's Island Express has proven that you can make a great metroidvania out of PINBALL! Nobody is saying all metroidvania games have to play the same. They have to include meaningful exploration, backtracking and ability upgrades that both change how the game is played and allow you to reach new areas. That's it and it isn't very limiting, is it? It doesn't say anything about how your character controls, what they can do, what their enemies can do, where any of this happening, what the upgrades are going to be, what other forms of progress there might be and so on. Metroidvania is a structural label more than a gameplay one, it describes what you're trying to do in the big picture but not what you're doing at each step of the way. As you can see from the list above people have already answered that question in a wide variety of ways and will probably continue to innovate upon the genre. None of which requires completely abandoning the fundamental component of exploration and backtracking with new abilities, something that Dead Cells objectively lacks.
Restarting a run and going to the exact same block you saw in a previous run, just in a different location, is essentially backtracking. It serves the same gameplay purpose. And it gives the same "aha" moment. The key gameplay mechanic of deadcells is still essentially exploration as well, I've played let's just say far more then 32 hours and speed running is often a choice that isn't even beneficial. They encourage it and help it along a bit but exploration is often just as important if you want to find your favorite weapon or want to collect more cells. Also by the stricter definition, some of the games you mentioned wouldn't even qualify as a metriodvania, by some who require boss battles Ori even doesn't, and although axiome verge is great and all, it's mostly the definition of attempting to be like metriod. I clearly can't convince you, and your arguments don't convince me at all, so I don't think this argument is really worth it at all at this point. I do want to add that you never addressed the fact that my slightly more lenient definition wouldn't muddy the meaning of metriodvania, you just kind of moved past that to the claim about innovation in the metriodvania genre. Even if there were bucketloads of metriodvania innovation, you still wouldn't have provided a solid reason for why not to widen the definition slightly. Arguing about what feels like a metriodvania is stupid because what "feels" like a metriodvania really is on a per person basis, to me dead cells feels like one but to you it doesn't. Anyway, as I was saying there's no real way you'll be convinced and probably no way I'll be convinced, so I'll probably be ending this conversation in a reply or so. Neither of us are getting much out of it.
The experience of watching this video was a 10/10 for me, thank you. Below, an explanation: 1) I am eager & excited to find helpful videos, as an aspiring amatuer Unity dev. 2) I watched another video about 2d Metroidvania advice, and it focused on Hook & Loop; my initial GDD didn't have any outstanding gimmicks though, it very much is a love letter to C2:SQ, and all the other classics, with a heavy addition of complex melee combos... which sounds a lot like Blasphemous, except my setting isn't a memoriable Grimdark, more traditional Fantasy, so I felt like I was already in trouble without a real Hook to set me apart...this video basically says "If your Loop is Golden, then that IS your Hook." So thanks for restoring my confidence. 3: Great Audio. Your voice is nice & clear, and it's all mixed down great. The indy-dev community (especially Unity tutes) are delightfully globally diverse, but that comes at a cost... opportunities abound for everyone to learn more Audio! 4) This last bit will sound petty & cynical. Oh well. I usually start new hobbies & tasks very humble, assuming my skills will take years to develop, and that there is a huge barrier to entry... but when I see comment sections so filled with people who are so confidently wrong, even people who have been doing this for years missing the point or struggling with what I thought was intuitive or common sense, I get a jolt of motivation: maybe I'm secretly really good at this, and just haven't discovered it yet. Maybe there's hope, and it's not crippling that I waited so long to dive into this. 5) If you stuck with me this far & read all this, you're one of the real ones! You're awesome & good luck! Maybe we'll meet someday on a Con pannel talking about our famous, successful, & beloved Metroidvanias!
I bet there are a million SOTN defenders in the comments, but I can't help myself. My experience with the game is that there is a progression of good to better weapons. that progression is not very smooth, however, and it peaks really early. The progression of armors and items is a lot better, with the best stuff hard to reach and only showing up late in the game. With the weapons, you have to adjust your expectations. they are designed to be unique and interesting, not actually valuable. Bombs, in particular, are just nifty little distractions. 9/10ths of the stuff you find is just junk to screw around with. Especially the food. that stuff is almost worthless, but it is funny finding a bag of peanuts in a massive, gothic castle. That said, I can see how this would be seen as a flaw. rooting around in the basement to find a sword that is actually worse than punching monsters with your bare hands is a pretty funny joke. rooting around and finding a sword that is just mediocre is infuriating.
Oh yeah the game has many flaws, the worst for me is how easy it is (fortunately there are some hacks that balances the game and makes it almost perfect for me), but the castlevanias that came after symphony improoved a lot on those things (specially the ds ones) You have to remember that it was the first time castlevania tried such game design back in 1997
10:48 I was just reflecting on this the other day. Exploration is always rewarded, be it via a more direct route or the scenic route, because there are *so many* things to discover but importantly also a vast *variety* of things to find. That way, they never become repetitive while always feel meaningful and useful. Even the tidbits of lore snuck away in places are worth it.
A friend of mine made a bet with some of his friends, they said that if he could get all the trophies from the ps4 version of hollow knight in 3 months they'll give him $300, but if he failed he'll have to give them a ps4 (they all work on a game shop) and he said yes....boy what a mistake After a week or so he was barely at 15% so he asked me for help (i've played all of the castlevania games and beaten most of them (stll need to beat both n64 games and all of the LoS) and all of the 2d metroids, also i love metroidvanias in general) and we started playing. I found the game really fun and challenging! Also the characters where interesting and the map was huge! But after finally getting that platinum i have to say that i'm f*cking done with hollow knight, God..f*cking....damit that game was so hard to 100% like what the f*ck??? Specially the god damn pantheons! It took me a full month of playing almost every day to get through all of that sh*t!! And i didn't had any problems with the platforming on the damn king's dream but ffs those boss rushes were so hard!
oscar. He’s talking about the pantheons not the coliseum. In the pantheons you have to fight multiple bosses in a row and in the last one you have to fight every boss in the game
The cool thing about hollow knight is that it genuinely is open ended, at least after gaining the mantis claw. You could go into the city of tears, deepnest and get the tram pass, crystal peak or resting grounds, and none of them is really the "correct" way to go.
Dissatisfaction with SotN’s reward model is actually how I landed on a rec for Hollow Knight. I felt that some of SotN’s weapons were memorable and unique enough to find and use, but the RPG mechanics created beef gates that urged you to let go of your darlings. If there were interesting weapons with opportunity costs, like the Holy Rod vs the Fist of Tulkas, or the Spike Breaker armor vs maybe another interesting armor (even scoot Relics into the armor or accessory slots!), rather than finding stat upgrades and downgrades, you’d find more and more equipment with unique uses, which would incentivize the main world to have more applications for those uses, as well as a tangle of challenging alternate paths for players with other equipment. (Compare the ubiquity of HK’s spikes with SotN’s, which are more compartmentalized.) This trade off dynamic is exactly why my friend recommended Hollow Knight’s badges. But I totally agree about Hollow Knight’s sometimes too-open memory challenge. I walked past the entrance to Hollownest so early on that by the time I gained the ability to go there, I forgot I’d ever seen it. I checked every extreme of every path I could find, fought swarms of enemies who each took seven hits from my old nail, wondered how much further below Deepnest I’d have to go to finally reach the city, concluded that I was stuck...then went ‘lmao oh right the entrance was back in zone 2.’
Ori is borderline a metroidvania, due to how linear the story is. I believe that linearity is one of the greatest strengths of the game, but tbf, it does push the limits of what really counts as a metroidvania.
No one talking about toki tori 2, that is a metroidvania where instead of getting different abilities to progress you gain knowledge of how to solve puzzles. One of the best that i feel tick all those boxes and add to the genre itself
the good thing about the greenpath ledge is that speed runners jump, turn around and use the vengeful spirit to clip the character slightly to the left (2 casts) onto the ledge.
That's because Hollow Knight is the perfection of 2d Platformer Metroidvanias. I don't know if anyone can best Hollow Knight and how perfect it is, but I welcome people to continue to try.
Metroid games literally give you the option to go to unreachable zones just by using enough skills like bomb jump, shine spark, and wall jump, these mechanics feel like cheating but are actually planned by developers and usually have a steep learning curve to perform rather than a single button press. For me, that is what makes a Metroidvania game, in fact, that's what makes it unique and rewarding. Hollow Knight while being a great game, doesn't even do half of what Metroid does in this aspect. I don't know if you even know about these skill-based abilities, let alone knowing about Metroidvania as a genre. This video was more of a let's swoon over Hollow Knight than a genuinely well-thought-out video. Sorry dude, but I think you missed out on the best part of Metroid games while trying to let us know how much you love Hollow Knight. You Might as well have said, "I love Hollow Knight" for 16 minutes straight and it still wouldn't have made any difference to this video.
I can't speak for Metroid apart from Metroid Fusion (which has only one skip like this that's really, really hard to do) but I will speak for Hollow Knight. You should see some of the Speedrunning/randomizer strategies in Hollow Knight. The any% speedrun grabs only 4 major items, fights 4 bosses, and skips a majority of the game because of inventive use of intended mechanics like the use of the Shade as a tool to pogo off of yourself to reach higher places. I mean, the ledge that ingeniousclown showed Hornet on he said you normally go around (which is true), but the speedrun strategy has you taking that path using Vengeful Spirit to access it and there is another way that new players might not figure out their first time but is absolutely available if you want to get into speedrunning but you haven't mastered the speedrun techniques yet. There's even a meme category called Great Hopper % that only works because of a very obscure shade skip that even the average Hollow Knight speedrunner won't know about. By contrast, the randomizer can practically give most major items in the Forgotten Crossroads because there's at least one way out with almost every item in every given direction thanks to the world design and speedrun techniques like the Shade Skip. There's so much room for randomizer design in Hollow Knight because of how free the movement mechanics are, even from the start of the game.
@@aruretheincomprehensible20 I guess you should check out Super Metroid in that case. Fusion is considered very linear and it deviates from the original formula. Super Metroid is literally keeps the game more open than you would think. Bomb Jump alone can get you to places you wouldn't even think of.
@@benhardy8747 I definitely do need to check it out considering how core to the metroidvania genre it is, especially since (from my limited understanding of Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night) most of the metroidvanias I've played take more inspiration from Super Metroid than SotN. That said, I don't like using emulators because to me, it feels like stealing, and I don't have a Super Nintendo (especially a controller) so I probably won't get the authentic Super Metroid experience anyways, especially on an emulator. I might make an exception for this one though, especially if Nintendo isn't going to rerelease it for the Switch.
@@benhardy8747 As someone who has watched plenty of speedruns and randomizers of both HK and SM...Yeah, you're wrong, HK has many times more skips and sequence breaks tricks than SM.
really great video, I have often been trying to find good metroidvanias, and when i then try them, I just sit and shout at the game, for not being a metroidvania, I think you nailed it perfectly. for me, the most important part of a good metroidvania, is to be able to plunge into a unknown world, and to conquer the world, not to mistaken with completing the game, but to conquer the world, by getting to the point, where it could be your second home. as you said, getting familiar with the world. which is one of the reasons I keep going back to super metroid. after plunging in to so many unkown worlds, sometime, I just have to go back home and relax, and see if there are some nucks and crannies that I haven't discovered yet. I have beaten the game more times than I can remember, but it never seizes to amaze me how intricate it is... it is one of the few games i can whole heartedly say that I have conquered.
I played Hollow knight for what seems like 5-10 hrs, got my nail upgrade, beat a boss arena, and got really bored with the game. There's two major issues I have with HK vs Metroid Dread. Firstly, the controls of HK feel obnoxiously clunky, mostly due to how small the hitbox is for your nail. It also feels like I'm in quicksand most of the time. Secondly, the story is just very uninteresting to me, to the point where I don't care about any of these weird looking creatures.
The game at 8:00 is The Messenger. I tried to put a label for every game I included in this video but I guess I missed one. Sorry!
Would it be possible to list the music used in your video description? And maybe the list of games? That way we can look up some of the games that look or sound really good.
In particular, I'd like to know what music plays at 4:51
What about the game at 4:35?
@@DarkEinherjar Elemental Station Alpha
Could you list the games in the description?
Thank you! I was wondering about exactly this!
Step one: be Team Cherry
Step two: Profit
Step 3: don’t make enough profit to reach Kickstarter goal for a Hornet DLC
Step 5: Make it anyway, but as a full game instead
They made funding goal for Hornet.
Step 6: Embrace Hollow Knight.
Step Four?
I also have GBA video platform games, showing the games I liked the most, if you want to see it, just search my page (vlad segundo) or click on my icon, or search for "melhores jogos GBA plataforma vlad", thanks!
they didnt reach colosseum of fools , but they put it in anyways
The best part about that specific ledge in Hollow Knight is that you actually can reach it early if you figure out that you can make a flying enemy nearby notice you, guide it to the ledge, and then bounce off it. Of course not many first-time players will do that, but it's the fact that this option exists for you that makes the world a bit more open.
Kanra Kiddler Or if you are a speed runner you can use a bug with your fireball to let you just get that tiny amount of height
It is not a bug, but an exploit. Bugs are errors in the code and an exploit is the unintended use of a game mechanic.
@@horstschlemmer9578 But what if the bug allows for the unintended use of game mechanics?
@@MangoInfinity1 Haha yeah i kept thinking about this. I've never tried the fireball trick myself...i wonder if its been patched out or still works?
Yeah i remember that vengefly bounce is what hooked me on hollow knight. It made me feel this "the game rewards skill" kinda feeling.
One of the things that impressed me the most in Axiom Verge was the "stealth tease": A blocked-off path that you _don't_ recognize as a path because you don't even know that it can be unlocked with an ability, let alone how that ability works. And when you finally get that ability, those blocked-off paths seem obvious in retrospect.
That was one of my favorite parts about that game. The visual design of those little paths scream "use me" but if you don't know about that ability, the mystery is confounding. Getting the item is such a "Eureka!" moment that I really love about metroidvanias!
Axiom Verge also played a lot of tricks on one's expectations. The easy example is crawl spaces. Because it knows the person playing is probably familiar with the genre, it knows you're expecting a Morph Ball or something like that and you get the Remote Drone instead. It's like a triple treat. 1. Set up a tease that the player thinks they understand. 2. Subvert the tease by giving them something else instead. 3. Have that something else be a wildly creative way of solving the teased obstacle.
such a big world!
You should try Xeo drifter. Very Axiom/Metroid inspired. You can see it. Much more of a fun snack one though.
Axion Verge is one of my favourite metroidvanias in recent memory. Excellent game
I know it's not technically part of what your saying but music plays a huge role in any game. A beautifully crafted metroidvania with horrible music is a game 99% of the time I wouldn't play. Music and atmosphere is a huge thing in these type of games. SoTN is a good example of a good game with excellent music etc.. It makes a difference. Hollow Knights music is good and the atmosphere is great. If both these games had horrible music and atmosphere I highly doubt they would be as regarded as they are. Just my opinion though.
This is so true to me as well. Sure, I'm a musician so it's normal that music plays a bigger role for me than for someone who's not as passionate about the subject, but I'm a firm believer that music can play as big a role in atmosphere as the art/level design does, sometimes even more so! Those two titles you cited are perfect examples of that, and they happen to be two of my favourite games ever.
I just would turn music off, hardly keep it up anyways.
A guy stating that music matters.... Yeah, that has to be said , because no one but him knows that. It is as if , Im hungry , Id better eat some food.
You could say that about any genre of game.
@@TheBestiaryCompendium3182 ok bud.
The thing I love most about hollow knight in particular, is that the illusion of choice is sometimes actually choice, with all the ways you can go after greenpath it's insane, I've heard some people actually got the tram pass before even the mantis claw.
I didn't even know about the flukenest or the Weaver den until after I beat the traitor Lord, there are so many damn hidden areas to find even after completion that you may have missed, hell, I've seen people beat the dung defender on their first run before even fighting the mantis lords
@@hiddensinix2767 im playing the game rn and that's exactly what happened. I got scared thinking the Mantis Lords would be too hard, that I ended up exploring city of tears firsy. I actually used the defender crest when beating the lords.
On my first playthrough, after getting mantis claws I ignored Quirrell's warning not to fight the mantis lords until later, eventually beat them, then stumbled blindly through Deepnest, found the tram pass, and reached the Ancient Basin under the incorrect belief that I was still on the intended first-time player's critical path, since I was going "forward" the entire time and nothing was stopping me besides the sudden difficulty spike. By the time I reached Ancient Basin I was so disoriented that I died to the flying sentries, enemies I hadn't encountered before, in the room right before the vertical shaft that would've led me to the east side of City of Tears, near King's Station.
The cliff in Hollow Knight is actually a very good example as it shows that you actually can deliver the message without requiring the player to backtrack. Requiring much backtracking is generally considered to be a negative aspect of a Metroidvania; it can fun the breeze through parts to give them a feeling of how much more powerful/skilled they become, or to go "secret hunting", but requiring from the player to do the same part over and over again to advance the main quest is not good.
Another cool detail about that cliff part is that it's actually possible to make that jump. You can kite a bug from below and use it as a platform to bounce off with a downward strike. Optional paths that can only be accessed by players who mastered the deep mechanics and giving them sense that they're somewhere where they're not "supposed to be" is also great design. Those are the kind of Metroidvania's that people can play over and over again and still learn/discover new things.
About Castlevania and Swords... there's a lot of unique weapons there. Greatswords with massive hit range but slow, spears that strike longer, knives that strike fast but short. And fists which have giant DPS but very short range. I defeated a lot of bosses using Holy Water and Fists/Baselard.
While the "just another missile expansion" fatigue eventually sets in for everyone in Metroid, the reason that there are so many missile expansions is so that you *don't* have to find them all. If you drastically reduce the number of missile expansions to make them more important, you end up making full exploration mandatory for all but the best players, and that will annoy more people than "just another" fatigue. That is a legitimate risk with exploration-based gameplay... Non-mandatory exploration means non-mandatory rewards for exploration, which can make the rewards for exploration eventually feel disappointing. But making the rewards more important makes full exploration mandatory. Many games even create a messy worst-of-both-worlds middle ground, where most rewards aren't big, but players feel they need to explore absolutely everything anyway because there *might* be things that are.
That's a good point
Yet Hollow knight got the best of two worlds. Not mandatory, but always exciting
While I agree with that, I am also of the opinion that more dakka is good dakka and more missiles is good dakka.
I also admit that I just finished Hornet’s fight in the second area while in Super Metroid I barely advanced because of pure initial paranoia (were is everyone?!) and other games that called my attention.
i know this comment is old but that's why there are 900 koroks in breath of the wild and like a million moons in mario odissey, which are definitely not metroidvanias but are games that reward exploration
Also it was ignored that there are non-mandatory itens in HK, like rancid eggs and the ones you sell like the wanderers journals.
Good Metroidvania Games not mentioned in the video for those looking for something to play (in no particular order and based upon personal opinion):
- Ori and the Blind Forest (incredibly beautiful and fast paced)
- Salt and Sanctuary (Dark and horrorish; nice aesthetics; Dark souls-ish difficulty with no map, no tutorial and lots of praying; humongous skilltree)
- Axiom Verge (crazy arsenal of weapons and abilities; great secrets to find; lovely nod at retro gaming)
- Metroid Zero Mission
- Metroid Fusion
- AM2R (Another Metroid 2 Remake)
Does Ori and blind forest even count as a Metroidvania? It is really linear.
Metroid Fusion, AM2R and Axiom Verge are pretty lackluster metroidvanias.
You should've added Environmental Station Alpha
@@Maldito011316 He said not in the video, and ESA is. ESA is incredible though.
@@Maldito011316 What? Those aren't lackluster at all.
@@kamikeserpentail3778 Yeah, I guess. They're sub-par. There's a ton of great Metroidvanias. These don't do anything spectacular. There are more solid MVanias or ones that excel in one area in particular.
Metroid Zero Mission is a substitute to Fusion.
Metroid Samus Returns to AM2R.
ESA to Axiom Verge.
Axiom Verge tries to be a Metroid but fails everywhere but where it tries to be something else. The tileset looks like garbage, the combat is a cheese-fest slog of boredom, and the exploration, song and atmosphere didn't grab my attention. It has some interesting ideas but they only appear afterwards in the game.
You can play Valdis Story: Abyssal City, Dust: An Elysian Tail, ESA, La-Mulana, some DarkSouls-likes such as Salt & Sanctuary or Blasphemous, Hollow Knight, Castlevanias from the GBA and NDS (Igavanias) + SotN, Super Metroid...
Hollow Knight ruined all metroidvanias for me, it's so good that playing any other game from the genre feels like a significant downgrade
Have you tried Ori?
@@Alojzist I absolutely loved Hollow Knight, but I couldn't be bothered to finish Ori and the blind forest. I agree with Valentin. HK is just too good. Especially for more hardcore metroidvania fans
I still havent finished Hollow Knight, but I consider Ori to be above it, specially in terms of fast movement
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Game maker's toolkit talked about that one critique you had on Hollow Knight, but actually had it a something the game did well. The "stumbling into something important" scenario was an important and purposeful piece of the game. In the video he explains that with the true open world of Hollow Knight, they simply scatter things everywhere, some unimportant, some integral. whenever you get a new ability or "key" of sorts there are many places you can go, a few will lead to charms, shells, or other non important items, but at least a couple are important and very little signposting is used to lead players to those important discoveries. This may sound bad but it only contributes to the (in my opinion) good feeling of stumbling. Team Cherry said that they trust their players to be smart enough to be able to explore on their own, the game already has committed to a it's high difficulty which does make it to hard for some players, but this game was made with more experienced players in mind who probably also have the game knowledge to play the game. (please watch Game Maker's Tool Kit's video on this, he explained it way better)
It's structure. That's the one essential part of any Metroidvania, because the genre is so tied up with exploration-based gameplay. Super Metroid does it so well that it practically substitutes for a story, by separating your experience into dramatic arcs defined by level design rather than plot progression. And yeah, the items you acquire to expand your horizons are closely associated with that, so having interesting ones (hopefully with more than one use per item) is a big deal.
By the way, I appreciate your visual shout-out to Alwa's Awakening. I've never seen a gaming UA-camr cover it, but it's really a fun throwback to the older style of Metroidvania we don't see a lot these days.
Will there ever be a game that even comes close to Super Metroid?
@@peterc504 Hollow Knight
I agree! Super metroid has best metroidvania level design. If you want talk about level design.. Then Super metroid is good example. It is both linear and open. Hollow knight level-design make people way too confusing and it wastes player time a lot when there are so many long way hallways that leads you death ends. Mix that with bad death system, bad map system and far way save points. You basically created frustration. Some people might like that but for me it was very frustration experience even tough Im big fan of metroidvania genre.
I personally would put Hollow Knight close to Super Metroid, and this is coming from someone who is a long time SM fan and who would consider it one of my top 3 favorite games.
They are different, but not that different. Personally, I think that the lack of challenge in SM is one of the few flaws. I think HK is possibly just a bit too hard, but mostly it is the difficulty curve. SM has a perfect difficulty curve, but is overall too easy. HK's difficulty curve jumps too suddenly sometimes. I think that SM has the better area design, and it leads you almost perfectly through the areas, however it does have all the disappointing item finds like regular missile tanks, and since the game is fairly easy, if you find everything it makes it even easier and less threatening. HK has a great system for using items, and almost all items are useful and valuable, but the game does leave you guessing sometimes. Both have excellent ambience. I disagree with the claim that HK only has one horror themed area ad SM is all horror themed because that isn't even true. What SM has is suspense. Only a few places are kind of horror-ish. HK on the other hand has a very weighty, dreary but almost philosophical feel. I would say that HK is more legitimately scary, but it's because you feel more vulnerable. Details like getting hit and not being able to hear anything for a moment add to this.
@@peterc504 Hyper Metroid?
Regarding what you said about Castlevania - Castlevania KINDA does something like that - in Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow. The Tactical Soul System is almost exactly like what you describe. Some souls are better than the other, but almost every soul is useful in some way (while also adapting the 'subweapon' Castlevania concept in an interesting way). You do find them by fighting enemies though, but because of the extreme enemy variety - some enemies even only appear in one room - it is still worth exploring the entire castle to find all the enemies. In fact, the game doesn't even track completion percentage of items, but it DOES track percentage of souls you have, so it's pretty obvious what was the priority among designers.
And of course, Aria has an actually useful shop, so even when you find weak weapons, they're still useful as an extra source of gold. And some weapons are genuinely interesting and unique, like Positron Rifle, Silver Gun or Whip Sword.
The soul system is still one of my favorite mechanics in any game. It's like pokemon and a metroidvania had a baby, brilliant!
Yes! I heard that comment about CastleVania being weak in that area in the video, and instantly thought, "this guy hasn't played a lot of CastleVania then.
Although I also thought it was weird him referring to the first literal metroidvania, Symphony of the Night as a bad example of one. I follow his point and get what he's saying. Just, CastleVania is kind of why we have this term in the first place.
Dawn of Sorrow still is one if my alltime favorites. The soul-system is so amazing. You feel like such a badass in the late game. I hope it gets a switch port one day, because most ds emulators are trash.
@@peacockfilletsteak I mean, it's just the name. The genre is much older than SotN - and even than Metroid, the first Metroidvania was probably an obscure game called Brain Breaker from 1985 (or if you allow literal keys and not just abilities into definition, Montezuma's Revenge from 1984).
For some reason people love the soul system. In my opinion the system that used Juste Belmont was very good and underestimated (sub weapons+magic books)
I've recently played through Symphony of the Night and Hollow Knight finally. I have to say while SOTN's items aren't the most rewarding to collect , the secrets you discover are very worthwhile as you try to uncover the larger mystery at hand.
When I switched over to Hollow Knight, I really appreciated that character progression was primarily through items (yeah you can save up geo for items, but you aren't leveling up your character with the game's currency like a certain other Metroidvania.) Where Hollow Knight shined for me, is that I found myself using almost every charm, item, or spell I found. So not only was I already desperately exploring for the next greatest item or potential secret, I was unintentionally solving a mystery I wasn't thinking of yet.
Both SOTN and Hollow Knight feature more to discover than what you might think during your first playthrough. I believe SOTN's shortcoming for me is that the game was too much on the easy side. When items and upgrades begin feeling trivial, there's less of a reason to explore for secrets; however, the mystery that unfolds can be an even stronger motivator for exploring. So because I didn't care about getting stronger in SOTN, I had a very lackluster ending my first time (which I can safely assume was done intentionally and is not a complaint of the game). Hollow Knight however, I felt compelled to explore from beginning to end. At first it was to become stronger, but about halfway I felt more compelled to explore just to learn about the game's world and because of this had a very accomplished ending.
So what makes a good Metroidvania? I believe you helped me get to this conclusion, that a sense of mystery is integral to a good Metroidvania and that the mystery can't exist if I don't feel compelled to explore. All that being said, I can't objectively rank these games as they're all special to me for their own reasons.
Thank you very much for this video.
SOTN and Hollow Knight are my favorite Metroidvanias, too!
Try the hard patched version of SOTN. Unbelievably hard and rewarding ;)
Try SOTN on luck mode
I agree with SOTN being too easy. If you play on 99 luck mode, however, the game becomes amazing. All of a sudden, every spell and item has significant tactical advantage, and you actually need to use consumables, familiars, and spells. As well as keep your armor and weapons upgraded. Until you get the best stuff 70% of the way through. Then it's back to being easy again.
Highly recommend for people familiar with the game.
You should play Order of Ecclesia!
I can't believe its not butte- *a metroidvania*!
wow
wow
wow
Wow
You should check out "An Untitled Story." It's a freeware metroidvania from 2007 by the guy who made Celeste. It's not as long as most commercial metroidvanias (~5-10 hours depending on completion), but it's one of the most impressively large freeware games I've ever played.
(Surprisingly difficult, though.)
was looking through the comment to see if anyone mentioned AUS. it's my favorite metroidvania.
*"It's an illusion of choice conveyed through gameplay, rather than poorly written dialogue options."*
My favourite line explaining why I love metroidvania games and why I don't enjoy "classic" RPG games too much.
I disagree slightly on the interpretation of "guided non-linearity". The example of a ledge that's a bit too high until you get a jumping ability that lets you get over it is not guided non-linearity by itself. Something you _could_ do, if only you had the ability to, is inherently linear, not non-linear.
The guided non-linearity comes into play when you finally get the ability and _remember_ the ledge you couldn't get past before. the remembering part is the guide.
The ledge forcing the player down a linear path is the guide that tells people that this is worth remembering and coming back to later.
The act of forcing the player away from the ledge is not guided non-linearity, but the desire to come back to the ledge later is.
A ledge you can't get past isn't a guide away from it. It's a guide over it.
As a result, I think "guided non-linearity" + "ability-gating" is a really good definition. Because I honestly can't think of a way to make a game with those two components interacting that's not a metroidvania. A game can have these two components in a way that doesn't have them interact, and such a game would not be a metroidvania; which means it's the interaction between them specifically that causes a game to be a metroidvania.
A major problem is the interpretation of these components. A key that opens doors is not an ability, but a gun that _also_ opens doors is. And the illusion of choice is not non-linearity, but the choice you make once the illusion disappears is.
"The guided non-linearity comes into play when you finally get the ability and remember the ledge you couldn't get past before. the remembering part is the guide.
"
It only becomes non-linear (in a non-optional sense) if you could either go back there later, or take another path entirely and still progress through the game.
Symphony of the night didn't only have swords it also had staves, rods and I think axes. They had different attributes and strengths other than the different swords, shields and different armor bits.
And then there's always getting the different items that help push the story forward as well as the different spells and transformation upgrades and traversal upgrades.
It's not rare that I have to pause your videos to open one of my game design document and add a few notes. Thanks for that!
I know you
Flash game devs
Hey, SoulGame, I was wondering: Will you be making a Rogue Soul 3?
@@phoenixc33 Yeah definitely! But we're not sure when ^^ Maybe our next game, maybe letter.
Let us Level Up , pple always like to feel a little more poweful with every enemy you take out.
Thanks for this video. I bought Hollow Knight during the Holliday sale & am enjoying the hell out it. It's my first metroidvania - I've just never played any before, but it inspired a love in me to want to explore this genre more after I've finished with it. That loop you explained was what made me fall in love as well. As for Hollow Knight's open-endedness I personally like it. I don't mind getting lost. Also Hollow Knight does allow you to purchase badges where you can mark interesting stuff which makes it a whole lot easier to remember. The only thing I would say against Hollow Knight is that the platforming can be a bit crap at times & there really should be more frequent save points, especially right before boss fights. But even though it's frustrating at times, I absolutely love it and am looking forward to exploring this genre after I finish. Thanks for the video.
For me, it’s the foreboding atmosphere and isolation.
that doesn't make any sense lol
@@11th_defender51 It does when you consider the Metroid part of Metroidvania, the atmosphere of the games are designed to almost make you feel oppressed and alone, like a "you against the world" situation, if you want someone to actually explain it better Video Game Animation Study (y'know, the guy who made the comment in the first place) has several videos on theming in the Metroid series
@@theenami I don't remember the context for which I said that. Maybe it's because he was saying that atmosphere and isolation were what make a good metroidvania, and I was thinking more about how good the game actually was. I think atmoshpere, power-ups and good exploration are what make a good metroid game, but for non-metroid metroidvania's it would be mainly the power-ups and exploration for me. I think it's because he was thinking in the context of just metroid. And I have watched those vids btw.
Try momodora reverie under the moonlight.
I love finding missile tanks in Metroid games. It scratches that collect-a-thon itch.
It's fun from the perspective of the challenge of finding, but they aren't all that useful. Most notably because SM isn't that hard. It's a minor flaw in a near perfect game, but once you've found everything it isn't that much fun to 100% it again unless you are speed running, and finding everything doesn't do anything else besides make an easy game easier.
@@systemafunk Yeah, I agree. But for me, finding them in the first place is enough.
Yeah i think that they should be understood as collectibles. They give you a small mechanical bonus, but it's actually finding them that is the true reward for the player. Like Riddler trophies or GTA pigeons. It's practically tradition for Metroid games to have an absurd maximum number of missiles
The answer is hollow knight. Hollow knight makes a good metroidvania
The answer is Super Metroid.
@@alaeriia01 Hollow Knight is superior to Super Metroid. Take off your nostalgia glasses!
I played Super Metroid for the first time a few months ago after everyone kept recommending it to all metroidvania lovers. I was pretty disappointed, tbh. The controls and fights are extremely frustrating and outdated. It's all just a bit janky and I ended up resenting the game to a certain degree. I still had fun in the end, though.
Super Metroid it's a really good game, but let's be honest, even with how many things did the first, it hasn't aged exactly well, it's still enjoyable? Depends on who plays it. It stands as the best way to do a metroidvania today? I don't really think so
Super Metroid barely aged tbh. Yeah, the controls are a bit clunky but that's all.
One of my favorite parts of SOTN is having an inventory filled with garbage items because they each have their own charm, sometimes special moves to discover, and maybe even secrets! Gimme pizza, peanuts and omelets, knockoff heirloom shields, cursed swords that are useless and shoes that make me taller. Give them all to me!
Wow
Your videos are some of the only ones i'm always excited for. And it baffles me that you have a job and can still make videos with such quality.
• rasmus • 9
For anyone who has exhausted every Metroidvania, loves Super Metroid, and loves the more hardcore exploration aspect, I recommend trying out some of the Super Metroid ROM Hacks. Hyper Metroid, Metroid Z-Factor, Super Metroid Redesign and Metroid Phazon Hack are 4 that I had a great time with. I used to search at length for new Metroidvanias I never played, but I got to a point where I played all of the best ones and these ROM Hacks were really refreshing.
Basically just make your player compelled to explore your world, in whatever way that may be. Offering relevant rewards is good, but also just making the world enticing, nice to be in. Make the player want to see what the world has to offer.
Sotn, is the first game I've ever played, and is still amazing in every aspect to me
You should have used Super Metroid as a perfect example of memorization.
That landmark at Kraid's lair for example,it shows you that an important area is around here,that you have to come back after you find a power up...or actually use hidden tecnhiques to reach that area before you even go to find the hi-jump boots : the wall jump and bomb jumping.
In fact
This is both a great example of memorization, but also about the game letting you create another possibilities even though it has an invisible hand.
"Dust: an Elysian Tail" is an often overlooked gem of a Metroidvania game. Highly recommended to the fans of the genre.
It`s a Hack `n Slash but if you dont mind that it`s a great game
While I see what you mean about Metroid eventually devolving into "find all the missile packs," Metroid still continues to be the only metroidvania that gets one thing right. Its mechanics allow for sequence breaks if you're skilled enough. That ledge you can't reach to get to kriad because you don't have hi jump boots? You don't ACTUALLY need them. You can get up both by wall jumping and bomb jumping. These aren't glitches or exploits, they're intended mechanics in the game. Even Metroid fusion, the most linear Metroid game, has a very complicated shine spark sequence that you can follow to get back to an early part of the level you "weren't supposed to be able to go back to," but once you get there, the game actually acknowledges exactly what you did to reach that point and you get an extra bit of dialogue from Adam. Metroid rewards you for paying attention and pushing samus's abilities to their limit.
The best part about Hollow Knight's design is that some of the areas are accessible even before the abilities it obviously intends you to have are obtained, by simply understanding its other mechanics. The Pogo Jump's utility usage is insane, not just because of how you can use it to access early areas (like the Hornet ledge mentioned in this video using the Vengefly beneath) but also one minor addition to it that actually amounts to a pretty substantial opening of other areas as well, which is making the nail's hitbox slightly wider than the Knight's body hitbox, allowing you to pogo jump up wall spikes by being just close enough to them not to hit them with your body. I used this to get to Brooding Mawlek early for example before having Mantis Claw for an early mask shard (tough fight though), and keep in mind this was my first, blind playthrough.
The utility usage of this was so intuitive I thought a lot of accessing early stuff was by design as well, specifically due to the layouts of some of the rooms. For example, in Forgotten Crossroads there is another mask shard hidden in the Goam (giant spiked worm) room in the ceiling, the hole being just too high to reach without the double jump. But to the right of that hole, behind three Goams that burst from the ground, is a lone Vengefly that you can lead to the hole and pogo jump off of to get up there early. Thing is (and this is the room layout part I mentioned) the Goams can actually kill this vengefly, meaning you have to time when you get it to come after you to where it passes through the three Goams without getting killed, in order to then be able to pogo off of it. This turned early acquisition of this mask shard into a legitimate puzzle.
I can only assume this sort of thing is by design - and if so, it's freaking brilliant because this sort of circumvention of the usual gated progression behind the acquisition of abilities is one of the most natural means to progress that game mechanic I have ever seen - and despite that, there is still no way to completely sequence break the game, so it still lends itself more to the exploration component by rewarding lateral thinking and the skill to perform these things, without coming off as exploitative or game-breaking - maintaining its overall structure but quite a bit more free.
I'd kinda like to hear your thoughts on Ori and the Blind Forest and Toki Tori.
Toki Tori is a Metroidvania where instead of getting abilities you gain knowledge that helps you reach areas you couldn't reach before (which makes it somewhat unique in that aspect) and Ori and Blind Forest is simply extremely beautiful and feels great to play.
Hollow knights brilliance knows no bounds
i find it too slow paced
Same. Hollow knight is literally one of my favourite games of all time, beating even super metroid imo.
@@LucolanYT yeha played it a bit more right know and got the walljump which made me discover a WHOLE lot more
@Burntfires22 Try guacamelee 2, best metroidvania I've ever played
@@dinar8749 Your crazy! I must play hollow knight but I doubt it can beat Super Metroid. Super Metroid will forever be the greatest game ever. I dont really believe what others say about games. Many claim Axiom Verge was better than Super Metroid. I played it and honestly it wasn't even close, it was actually pretty bad... Sci fi is must favorite type of game & hollow knight is just too cutesy compared to Super Metroids dark, atmospheric, lonley world where you fight massive creepy bosses
i was waiting for Chasm for too many years and was sadly disappointed when it finally arrives. Timespinner was the game that i hoped chasm to be .
I enjoyed Chasm for the most part, I am eagerly anticipating Heart Forth Alicia.
I was pleasantly surprised by Timespinners
Definitely on the side of liking how hollow knight does things in particular here. The feeling of getting lost in places is good as it makes the journey that much more memorable I feel and just the other day I ended up basically going to the city of tears only after surviving through three completely different areas that lead up to it and then finding out that it was where I was supposed to go anyway (and it was literally a few easy screens to get there had I gone the "Intended route) was a good discovery as it truly made me appreciate just how open the game is.
I specifically love how unguided and open Hollow Knight feels, but I can certainly see why it might not be that way for everyone.
One of the things I would love to see more time given to that I've actually not seen yet. Is the discussion on Metroidvania enemies, and how they can assist or impede backtracking.
What I mean by that is, take your average Metroid game, and the enemies are less "Actively hostile hunters" and more environmental pieces that lightly damage you on contact. They follow very simple fixed movement patterns. Moving left to right. Bouncing left to right. Moving around a platform. And they tend to die in one or two shots.
I feel this is a very important point that makes backtracking in the Metroid series so smooth and quick compared to other Metroidvanias. With the enemies being set pieces, there's many rooms throughout every zone of the game that you can just completely ignore them and jump over them with no difficulty. So if you want to go from Crateria to Norfair quickly, it's not that difficult to you. And even if you do hit the enemies a few times, you take very little damage.
In comparison, I recall Axiom Verge in particular to be exceptionally tedious to backtrack due to how to hard to kill so many of the enemies were and how much damage they dealt if they hit you. Those leaping zombie things were a nightmare to get past on multiple entries to a room, as they would chase you around, and they had high HP making them hard to kill even toward the end of the game. It made me unwilling to spend time exploring and backtracking as it took way way too long to fight all the enemies, taking all that damage, for such little reward.
I've not seen any Metroidvania have such simple easy to avoid enemies like Metroid does. They all seem to fall into a pattern of heavily emphasising combat, and gearing the majority of upgrades toward combat, not mobility.
"Lowering the maximum amount of Ammo that you can discover"
>Implying hard mode isn't a thing in Fusion and Zero Mission
Seriously tho, that example where you cannot reach the ledge in Super is a horrible example since you can just bomb jump to get to Kraid early.
Many of the charm of the Metroid series that puts it in above the other Metroidvanias is it's ability to make you feel like you're cheating and getting into an area early (Beating Ridley before Kraid, getting some upgrades early)
Other games just add hard enemies for your current abilities just to make you feel like you're getting somewhere you shouldn't be early but that's just the cheap way to do it. Besides, getting all those missiles upgrades and energy tanks without detouring is crucial to make the game more replayable.
That attempted greentext is a poor counter point. Most of the metroid games give you an absurd amount of ammo if you search for it. It's practically traditional for completionist players to have about 5 times as many missiles and bombs as they could possibly need.
I agree with the rest of your post though. That's one reason I dont consider Metroid Fusion as a true metroidvania; it's almost impossible to sequence break and truly impossible to sequence break in a meaningful way (i.e. early items). I think that Super Metroid is the quintessential metroidvania
The cliff in Greenpath isn't really an arbitrary lock because, if you're good enough at the game, you can actually reach it before obtaining the dash ability (by pogo-jumping off a flying bug if it's at the right position).
In conclution, Ori is awesome XD
True metroidvania game❤️
Hollowknight provides a solution for the complaint at 1400. And that is the ability to mark the map with interesting locations. This feature saved me a bunch of times.
One of the most memorable moments in Hollow Knight for me is when you find those pink bouncy things. You arent told how to use them but once you figure it out it comes as second nature.
Not only that, it boosts the player's confidence and self-reliability. HK knows when to not hold your hand and when to reward the player.
...The only time I got stuck in the entire game is on the pink mushrooms. Assumed I needed another ability to progress, ended running in circles for a while, got enought money for lumafly lantern, got dreamnail, then I finally checked a guide.
I think this particularly part was just plain bad design. They are no other point in the game where the HK doesn't tell you you have an ability.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 It took me a good 20 mins or so to figure it out. After running out of ideas I thought "what happens if I attack it?"
When it sent me flying back I felt like a dumbass for not figuring it out earlier. I think we as players need to be more willing to try shit out.
I honestly think that people are only looking at the Metroid part of the term “Metroidvania” Castlevania has completely different design than Metroid. Linear levels with optional upgrades sprinkled in between. In that case, Cave Story is a perfect Metroidvania imo. It’s a fairly linear game with back tracking and though effective but optional upgrades. Heck! I’ve seen people beat the entire game with nothing but the polar star! Now hear me out, I freaking love Metroid! But if that’s the definition for a Metroidvania, might as well change the term to remove Castlevania altogether! Metroid-like would be a nice term.
Do you not know of SOTN or the GBA and DS Castlevania trilogies? They are non linear with utility upgrades, basically metroids with more gory enemeies and rpg elements.
Kuasocto do you know of the Pinball games and Ferderation Force? They have elements that would define them as a spin-off. So are the games your talking about.
@@MsQuote Those are not spin offs, they were the only castlevania games released for a long period of time. They're just another type of Castlevania. By your logic 3d mario games would also be only spin offs, only 2d being the "true" mario.
Kuasocto sorry I misread your reply! Yes those games exist and there’s no real “true” formula. However my point isn’t on the Castlevania series itself, but more on the ideology that linear game design suddenly prevents an indie game from being a Metroidvania. If you ask me, as long as you feel powerful by the end of your journey, by finding that one item, or trading a valuable item for a better one. To me, it’s a combination of atmosphere and design based around said atmosphere.
Honestly I've never gotten the term Metroidvania. Metroid established the formula first and from the start Castlevania just adopted it after several linear games. Like I love Castlevania but I don't think the genre deserves to be named after the series.
no axiom verge?
according to "sllypper" Axiom Verge is an awful MV... Axiom Verge? A bad Metroidvania? What? It's by far not perfect and it's easily exceeded by other games of that genre but damn, it's definitely still a good game. My favorite MV actually because it was the game that made me realise I love Metroidvanias. The way sllypper talks about AV sounds like it's factual and objective but I can assure that he has no idea what he's talking about, because literally everything he mentioned is the complete opposite for me. I love the tileset, even more so the music, the combat may be a little lackluster but the sheer size and diversity of the arsenal is astounding and brings creative uses into the game (the flamethrower is really op tho but still kinda fun) especially in corporation with the address disruptor. The game is filled to the brim with creative ideas and concepts that definitely make up for the somewhat bad story (not the lore, just the actual story) and potential lack of other attributes I can't think of right now. I think people also forget that Axiom Verge was a one man project _entirely_ and in every aspect that is honorable. sllypper knows shit about Axiom Verge!
rant off
Thanks for sticking up for Axiom Verge: my go-to pandemic game in 2020...
Okay I have to interject something here. When you made the comment about Castlevania Symphony of the Night and mentioned that one of the issues was that weapon upgrades always went from strong sword stronger sword strongest sword that isn't the truth that all there are doesn't of different weapons in the game many of them are side grades or down grades in strength but offer different ways to dispatch your foes. Such as nunchuck flail different types of throwing discs katanas and swords that offer a different style of slashing mechanic not to mention all the one use items. One of the coolest things in Symphony of the Night was after you play through the second playthrough in a row you were able to purchase an item call the duplicator which allowed you to replicate all the one you saw items in the game which gave you countless amounts of combinations in ways which you could kill your enemies
But that isn't really the point, you see. It's true that there are several unique weapons that have special effects or skills that aren't always obvious at first sight, but first of all, you would often have to press random inputs in order to find out whether these weapons had any special skills (unless you were reading a guide of some sort that told you what inputs to use). Secondly, even weapons with special skills were often found at a time when they no longer were useful (Sword of Dawn being such an example, those skeleton summons are hardly useful in the inverted castle). In reference to an item you mention, the nunchucks, by the time you actually collect them, they're effectively worthless as you would likely already have found weapons far more useful than that (and to collect them safely, you'd need a well-hidden item, Holy Relic, adding to the frustration). The novelty factor of weapons with special skills can be interesting, but outside of a few, such as Alucard Sword's warp slash, most of them are exactly that: novelty effects.
As for the duplicator, it's certainly true that having an item like that can mix things up by giving you infinite consumable items, but as you stated, it's only available after the completion of the game. Now imagine if such an item existed in a game that didn't hold your interest... you would never have found out about it since the game wouldn't have held your interest long enough to even complete it.
Now don't get me wrong, I love SotN as it's one of the games I grew up with, as well as being one of the few games I used to speedrun, but the point being made in the video is that sometimes the games we love have faults, and it's often a fault of SotN and other Castlevania Metroidvanias that give you items after they've ceased to be useful, and this can cause some frustration since it's typically the sensation of 'I explored to the dead end of this obscure area just to find a weapon that is objectively useless? Blarg!'
TL;DR: While there are several weapons with special skills, they often are novelty effects where simple attacks can perform even better. Many weapons are found at a point in the game where they are likely out-classed by what you already possess, despite their special skills. The duplicator, though interesting, can only be bought in subsequent playthroughs as a 'Replay' item, but this point is moot since the game must have held your interest long enough first for you to complete it; otherwise, you would never have known about it.
Yep, like Ze Bug said.
Think of it that way: WHAT IF in Castlevania, you would get different types of weapons like a sword and a flail and others, pretty soon in the game. And then what you find are damage upgrades to sword weapons (or even bonus strength upgrade so ALL weapons deal more damage, regardless of type). So, even if you find it at the beginning of a game or at the end of a game, it ALWAYS actually helps you get stronger. Wouldn't that be a lot better than just finding crappy weapons?
Often I found that even if you didn't mash buttons or looked it up different weapons still had versatility. Some had range over power or power over speed etc. This gave in a way a degree of difficulty you could apply to any given area. I found a few locations myself where I would drop to a so called weaker weapon either for the fun of it or because it was more effective for what I needed to do in the area. For over 80% of the game I thought the shield rod was a worthless item but by the time I finished the game and started replaying the final fight I put it in and then found out its ability.
@@vincelaforest so Dawn of Sorrow then.
Anyone else LOVE Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin? I feel like that game is really underappreciated. My favorite metroidvania. The story was better than most in the genre and the interplay of the two characters was novel. The painting levels also provided much environmental variety. Am I on my own island with this, or are there others who think this game has become a forgotten gem?.
Cave Story music out of the start, nice.
in castlevania aria of sorrow, mid-lategame exploration rewards begin giving you swords of a bit more elemental nature; stronger against certain enemies, weaker against others. you've got a sword with holy damage that does less than a sword with ice damage but if you're fighting a tough boss with a weakness to holy damage it makes you think 'hmm i think ill try my holy weapon'
Until you find Claimh Solais, in that case, every weapon becomes obsolete, for me anyway.
I disagree with you on Order of Ecclesia. The detached world still has secrets that you need to find, and I feel that it makes the world feel bigger, if not as interconnected.
7:42 You don't need to find a new power up to get up there. You can just lure an enemy here and use pogo attack.
That cliff in Hollow Knight you kept referring to is easliy passable without any upgrades. Aggro that mosquito under the entrance and nailhop up there
Hollow knight is my favorite metroidvania, but not only that it's also my favorite game and the first game i ever 100% and the reason why it is all those things to me is because it never failed to suprise me with new bosses to fight, new location to explore, new enemies to master and new bugs to meet, all this together creates an amazing world, but the thing that made me never give up on it was that it never reached out its hand and made it easier for me and because of that when i found a new ability or i finaly defeated a hard boss felt extra rewarding and acomplishing!!
And in my opinion hollow knight is perfect in every single way and when the hornet dlc comes out im gonna have to git gud again!! (still need to 112% lel)
I think that Hollow Knight's nonlinearity once you reach 1/3rd into the game, is something that I wouldn't understand people criticizing. Hollow Knight's nonlinearity means that there are multiple ways to reach areas (some being obvious, some requiring abilities, some require fighting a boss / mini-boss, and some requiring being more observant for hidden paths). This means that there are way fewer opportunities to get stuck, since you won't be immediately forced to look for one specific ability. As you unlock more of the map, you'll be naturally compelled to tread into the unexplored areas, which only unlocks more potential paths through familiar, and alien locations. Hollow Knight's exploration after the 1st - 3rd functions like an interconnected tree, rather than a series of linear soft locks until you get the next exploration-based ability.
I like how for hollow knight you can skip the double jump for a good long bit of the game if you just bounce of the enemy's head, or bounce off the breakable environment. my brother was speechless when I told him how I got past with out double jump.
Seeing a video on Metroidvanias? Well... I'm instantly interested in this!!
I clicked so fast on this video! As always, good video! They are always so interesting and well made ☺️ (Also it's totally fine to talk about Hollow Knight a lot, it's a masterpiece)
Not to mention you can see just a little gap on the map in Hollow Knight what makes you remember there is a gap you cannot reach yet which leads you to an unknown area you cannot see on the map - brilliant !
When he said “Man, I wonder what’s in there” I got an ad saying “CONTENT MAY NOT BE APPROPRIATE FOR CHILDREN”. lmao
3:48 *laughs in abusing vengeful spirit pushback since vengeful spirit pushes you back a little*
My goodness, are we really at the point where "kids these days" think any 2-D side-scroller is a metriodvania? ((Hey, remember that classic metroidvania series from the '90s, Commander Keen? LOL! Not.))
Dead Cells is very clearly a rogue-alike. Great game. Great rogue-alike. Not a metroidvania at all.
I've been enjoying the heck out of Hollow Knight, it reminds me of many of the elements I enjoyed in Bloodborne.
Diavo Voltaggio map to explore with ability upgrades to open up new paths and areas with weapons upgrades that you can buy for an individual run / permanent upgrades that you can buy for future runs. I’d argue that up until you beat the HotK boss the first time / get all the ability upgrades, it’s a Rogue-Metroidvania. Then after you have all the upgrades (20-40 hours into the game), it’s more of a Rogue-like.
@@coreyyuhas6764 It's nearly impossible to be both procedurally generated and a metroidvania. Not all games that have item gates are metroidvanias.
@@systemafunk but Deadcells is barely a procedurally generated game, the areas of the game don't change in any real way, each time you play the enemies and traps are in different locations but specific things are always the same, and they can be found in about the same spot every time. But I will agree with the comment above that after you learn where everything is , it's just a rogue like.
Okay boomer
Wario Land 3 was my first Metroidvania. Like Order of Ecclesia, it sections off each part of the game world into separate levels. However, unlike every other Metroidvania I've played since, the levels themselves change as you progress through the game. The idea of the game is to get keys in the level which unlocks chests containing a treasure. In the early game, there's a whole bunch of places in these levels you can't access yet. However, getting the right treasure will allow you to change the landscape of the area these levels are in. For instance: Finding an axe, which is used to cut down a tree and allows you to access the next level. There are also actual powerups as well, but that's to be expected. I recommend it.
Wow. I can't believe someone is talking about Wario Land 3. I love that game.
Super Metroid isn't that fun to try and max out items on, except for the sheer challenge of finding everything, however what makes Super Metroid great and a great example of the "Metroidvania" is this:
It leads you where you need to go extremely well without forcing you.
It tells a story without a single word of in game text.
The ambience is incredible. Possibly even better than Hollow Knight.
The challenge curve is just right. Now, in my opinion the game could be more difficult overall, but the actual challenge progession is very natural.
Castlevania: SotN is, in my opinion not as good as either SM or HK, however it is still very good. The main reason is because the game is just so much fun to play. It is fast paced with a lot of great memorable areas. Yes, there are lots of throw away items. However there are several classes of items and a good reason to at least have several go to weapons:
A knife or fist weapon - not as powerful per hit or as long range, but good for slow moving enemies or powerful single enemies without tons of defense
A medium range weapon like a staff or sword. Good at taking on multiple enemies at once due to the increased range and decent speed.
A large two handed weapon - good at taking out flying enemies like bats or medusa heads, due to the wide range of swing
Also, there are sharp weapons and blunt weapons. Sharp weapons are better at some enemies than others, and also cause them to bleed, which you can use to restore your life. Blunt weapons are better against skeletons and heavily armored enemies.
Finally, there are different elements on some weapons. For example, the holy staff is extremely powerful due to it's range and the fact that it damages a lot of undead by a lot.
SotN suffers from balance issues and there are still a lot of useless items, but there's a lot good going on with it still.
The "Vania" coming from the rpg-esque Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Lots of drone enemies. Large boss fights. Leveling up. Purchasing new weapons and tools, etc.
DRUMAT!C Thanks for mentioning this. I feel like most “Metroidvanais” and more Metroid likes as they don’t have vania elements.
Have you ever played iconoclast? i feel like it is a little linear for a metroidvania but i think it makes up for it with a great story and puzzles.It has a limited amount of upgrades and weapons but because it i feel like the tools you do have get more use in more creative ways other than a item you use for one puzzle and throw away never to be used again later.
Isn’t it incredible that that wonderful game was made by just one person.
I started paying SOTN when it came out. This was a couple years before I got internet access and had the temptation to look up guides. When I by chance discovered that you could play the entire castle upside down it was literally one of the most rewarding experiences I ever had, and have never gotten that excited about a game since. I was 13 at the time as well so i'm sure oxytocin and dopamine had something to do with that.
This is a great video but I did not even know people were calling these other games Metroidvanias. That sort of surprises me that people were having trouble with that distinction. Great video but I am a little dissapointed at the lack of mention towards Ori and the Blind Forest/Will of the wisps. I know these other games just suited your points better I am just a tad disappointed my favourite Metroidvania was excluded.
Agreed. Ori is definitely the best metroidvanias I've played. I understand why he didn't include it, though, since Ori just barely skirts the line between what is and isn't a metroidvania. Personally, though, I think the fact that it skirts that line is its greatest strength. Ori recognizes that not everyone likes to explore and recognizes that not everyone who likes to explore has the *memory* or *time* to explore, so its solution is to make a strongly linear storyline with no exploration needed. Though it's not required, exploration is encouraged - to find upgrades, backstory, secrets, spirit wells, etc. Then, its map is perhaps one of the best that I've used. It's so powerful and informative that I have little trouble navigating and figuring out which things I haven't unlocked yet. This cuts down on the time needed to explore side paths, but on the other hand, the quality of that time spent is drastically higher (in comparison, exploration in Hollow Knight primarily just consists of wondering around in circles racking your brain to figure out which path you haven't taken yet). This design made 100%-ing Ori such a pleasure for me. That (coupled with its fantastic gameplay design) is why I consider Ori to be the best metroidvania I've played
Sees black egg temple.
Ingenious clown: I wonder what’s in there...
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You know in hollow knight you could use the mosquito to just skip the ledge
You know that he talked about that, and its not intended
One model i found interesting was in Tunic, where the reward for exploration was information. In Tunic, everything outside of a few lines of text is written in a cryptic indecipherable language, forcing you to learn the game as you go. An interesting result of this is that almost all of the game is available from the start - theres tons of hidden passageways from the starting area only discoverable from the other end, many essential items can be unlocked from the getgo, and even one of the endgame systems is only a fancy set of button combinations.
The Witness is a lot like this. I (perhaps unhelpfully) call these kinds of games "metroidbrainia", where the only thing that stops your progression is more player knowledge as opposed to mechanical roadblocks.
Have you ever played Castlevania: Circle of the Moon? I think it did a better job than the Castlevania games you mentioned, at least in regards to limiting item drops to make those drops feel rewarding; mostly from the fact that they don't have any additional weapons in the game, just the starting whip. Progression is enabled through a set of items to collect (allowing things like double jump and wall jump) and combat strength and versatility is largely enabled through a set of magic cards that drop from specific monsters that can be used to do new things in combat.
I'd say it's probably the best exploration style Castlevania (and most underrated). Also manages to feel tough like the classic style. Great game.
I agree with both of you. It is one of the more fluid map designs in the Castlevania franchise, even if the map is structurally made to be similar to symphony's. The difficulty is closer to classicvanias' difficulty which I appreciate a lot. Getting one of the ice cards breaks the game in many ways I enjoy.
Hollow knight secret ingrediant is the mix of horror, sheer beauty and deep mystery. This apealing strangeness grip me every time.
Its weird how Symphony of The Night still looks better then most modern indie games.
it was a major studio game, made by a team of long time professionals with a decent budget. Most modern indy games especially in the Metroidvania genre are made by pretty small teams usually funded by a kickstarter. And the ones that aren't obviously look better in particular games like Ori which are made by Triple A developers under an "indy" banner.
@@drop0ut606 a few of the interviews with Iga i've seen kinda of contradict that though, from my understanding SoTN was a "Hail Mary" that had like 10 full time coders and a shit ton of revolving door helpers that would occasionally come in and add stuff until they eventually ran out of budget and time.
Though to be fair most modern indies are made of teamsof like 3 people but the tech and development process is a loooot smoother now than the early 90's
The sprite animation is one of the biggest reasons for this, at least to me. The smoothness with which Alucard moves, along with the trailing ghost images, make it look more detailed than it is. Even older games, like Aladdin and Donkey Kong Country on the SNES, still look good today despite their low resolution because they really flow well. Super Metroid went so far as to have different sprites and animations for each side of Samus, as well as frontal and 3/4 frames to animate when she turned around. That was HUGE in the 16-bit era, literally, as I'm pretty sure it was the largest capacity game ever released for the SNES.
Of course SotN also had excellently drawn backgrounds that used well shaded tiles, rather than heavily contrasting repeating blocks. It's those small details that make it stand out.
SOTN is a timeless masterpiece
That is rather subjective.
Great video,i love the use of the Hollow Knight and Super Metroid soundtrack.
Hey IngeniousClown, love your analyses. I would like to know all of your favorite metroidvanias; a top # metroidvanias video would do well, but if that's not in the cards would you please share your list? I want the leading expert's opinion!
Great video! Thanks for posting and sharing your viewpoints. I do have some counterpoints to share specifically about Hollow Knight and the issues I've faced with it.
I think my personal main issue for HK is the lack of clear identifiers for progress.
-The impassable armored bug at 2:23 - an unbeatable monster that looks like you maybe could defeat it, although you probably die from it first. Aside from trying and dying, running back and picking up your drops, and trying and dying again, the only thing that pulls you away from it initially is that you have other areas to explore at this point. So the player is now left feeling punished and has to go through the slog of running back to find out its just a gated area, and might be wondering if they could defeat this creature or were they just doing something wrong, or perhaps need something else to defeat it.
-The cliff that is referenced over and over, at 7:23 you show why the cliff is meaningful, but even based upon your own play you jump down as the characters on the ledge, you head to the right, and then back left and the character is gone. You should have seen the character. However, you may have seen it, you may have not. Now you have a ledge that looks like you should be able to make the jump, but instead of feeling like you need an upgrade to get there, just makes you feel like you're not doing the jump correctly as there are other platforms and obstacles that play part in this exact jump as you fall further down.
-The switch at 8:34 that is hidden BEHIND UI elements. I really don't need to go into detail about why something that sorta blends into the environment that you need to hit being obstructed by the UI is a bad idea.
These are basically the first three examples shared of gated exploration... and all three are a bit obtuse in design.
They're not clear, they're not clean, they're not memorable.
By comparison, the jump in Super Metroid at 2:21 is clear. There aren't other obstructions in the area or places to fall. Even though the jump is close, the environment leads you to believe that this area is something more than just a ledge on top of other ledges you cannot reach. Much in other ways there might be a small gap you need morph ball or a way to slide or shrink down to - it is obvious. This is important as Hollow Knight's artwork is so beautiful with design and layers that it needs way for those blockers to be more visible.. without breaking the immersion.
This is why I can't simply praise Hollow Knight because after that, you're now doubting yourself as a player. In games of exploration you want that feeling of self-assurance as you turn around and walk away from that barrier.
Thanks again for the video and hopefully it answers questions for a lot of people on what a Metroidvania is!
I'll give you the switch hiding behind UI is awkward, but your first two counter-points (the bug and the cliff) sound more like a combination of inexperience and stubbornness. If a game gives you paths to explore and you come across something you can't currently handle after giving it a REASONABLE try, the only logical response is to realize that it's not possible to pass yet and you should probably try to explore elsewhere. There's nothing punishing about that, it's teaching the player. There's no reason to die from that bug. There's no reason to think you actually can make that jump after trying a few times.
Yes, the Super Metroid jump is clear, but not every gate can be presented like that otherwise you'd have a genre that would get very stale very quickly. Hell, I'd even argue that falling into a platform further down reinforces the fact that you can't make that jump yet. It's practically TELLING you to "try this way"!
@@ingeniousclown Experience tells me that not all games are created equal, and in so many games we have passageways surrounded by awkward platforming. Often these setups are to encourage players to learn new ways of adventuring, perhaps jumping while attacking to extend the jump distance, etc. So when HK sends you off you can either get up and try again... which at that stage is not stubbornness... its trying to learn. The other option is to move on.
Moving on is fine, but if you're experienced with Metroidvanias, you may move on with doubt, and due to the lack of clarity rather than "I'm going to get stronger and come back"... you're kind of left wondering. As you mentioned, the NPC is a great indicator that is where you want to get to. It clearly looks like that is the place to be, not an indication of WHEN you should, so as helpful as it could be, it could also extend that doubt.
I don't agree with less-obtuse gates getting stale, they held up in Castlevania (except.. maybe Simon's Quest... kneeling for a tornado? Come on! That's obtuse!), most of the post-SOTN's do well, including the DS games.
Ultimately we may be splitting hairs here. We clearly disagree, and that is okay! I'm not saying Hollow Knight isn't a great game, there are however, definitely reasons why people seemingly fall off of Hollow Knight early, and this is exactly what happened to me. Thanks for the reply and discussion :)
For me Hollow Knight is a pure masterpiece. I prefer this at Super Metroid
I'll grant that Hollow Knight is harder to follow than something like Super Metroid, and that is a possible flaw, but it's really not that bad. Once you get used to the game, even the switch you were talking about is a no brainer. As far as seeing Hornet, well, if you are actually playing you will see her. If you forget, then that's just a fault in the person playing. "Searching for a way around" is a core part of all Metroid style games, and Super Metroid has similar elements.
What happens when playing the game is that you see her and you either are able to progress in the slightly different direction (by going down), or if you can't, you go a different direction, get the required item, and then check back in the area to try to progress.
It’s kind of annoying how the way you describe improving the Castlevania sotn weapon system was actually implemented in aria and dawn. It’s like, are we a joke to you
Exactly!! Lets bash him please
(Also He talks way too much about Hollow knight, im sure his friend did not meant it as a compliment)
"Utility Gated Progression" and "Guided Non-Linear Exploration"; such excellent descriptions. I am fairly confident the 5 stages (so far) that we have assembled and labeled as "Metroidvanias" live up to those terms. I watch videos, like this, to refine our craft.
Based on your definition of a metroidvania, Rain World could classify as one. Progression in the game comes in two forms: learning more about the game and seeing solutions to problems you simply didn't recognize before, and a few major character abilities acquired throughout the game. The interesting thing about the game is that the tools you acquire to access previously gated content can just as easily be lost through death. This adds a lot of weight to the gameplay and makes those tools that much more meaningful to the player. I have never seen another game capture the dread, wonder, and awe of exploration as well as Rain World does. The environments are so beautiful yet haunting, the enemies peaceful yet terrifying, the gameplay simple yet yields many options. Hollow Knight is a brilliant game that builds on other metroidvanias; Rain World is a beast of its own that is unlike any other game.
Imo metriodvania gatekeeping is stupid. Games like dead cells play like a metriodvania, feel like a metriodvania, feature 95% of the genre's tropes, but aren't considered one by some people because they don't exactly fit into the perfect metriodvania mold. We shouldn't want every game to fall into a perfect metriodvania mold though, innovation and exploration of the genre is what keeps the genre interesting and fresh. At it's heart, a metriodvania really is just any side-scroller that focuses on exploration and combat to some degree, where some mechanic or another, be it ability upgrades or other roadblocks such as gear or difficulty, roughly guides the player. Hell, dark souls captures the soul of a metriodvania without even being 2d. I really think the whole argument over whether this game or that game is a metriodvania or not is just so incredibly stupid. Psuedo-metriodvania or actual metriodvania, it doesn't actually matter as long as the game gives off the same thrill of exploration and combat as a metriodvania does. I actually bought rain-world on PC, but I haven't played it yet. I'll have to try it out.
@@jollygoodolgenderneutralin5152 Dead Cells doesn't play or feel like a metroidvania though, it's completely lacking in any sort of "oh I got a new thing to go reach that stuff I saw before!" backtracking due to every level being self-contained and what little exploration there is doesn't amount to much since the maps aren't actually that random and most of the dead ends don't have any rewards at all (you're just as likely to find a level up sitting out in the open as hidden in some out of the way passage). These are crucial aspects to what makes metroidvania games feel like metroidvania games, if you're going to throw those out the window then you might as well call every single platformer that ever allows you to move in more than one direction a metroidvania. You can go down pipes in Super Mario Bros, it must be a metroidvania!
I get the point you're trying to make, people should just focus on what makes individual games interesting and unique. That's fair. However genres exist for a reason, if I'm looking to buy something like Symphony of the Night then why would I want to accidentally pick up a game that is nothing like it? That's not a hypothetical either, I've actually purchased games because of the metroidvania label that turned out to not at all be the type of game I was trying to buy simply because people don't know how to use words (including Dead Cells, but that wasn't too disappointing since it is just an awesome game anyway so I was already hooked by the time I realized people had no idea what they were talking about).
Put yourself in that situation. Let's say you're feeling nostalgic for Street Fighter or something so you decide to buy a new fighting game... and you end up with a first person shooter. It has fighting, it must be the same thing right? Why are you disappointed?! Words have meaning and there's nothing wrong with clarifying that meaning in videos like this so that people can use words more accurately and thus better communicate information. There's literally no downside to being able to find the things you're looking for.
@@TheSquareOnes crucial flaw with you argument: dead cells literally has "aw I saw that before and now I can do it" moments because of the abilities you unlock that you can then use on a subsequent run to access a previously unaccessible area. The map always puts certian roadblocks in about the same location, allowing for you to quickly find something you previously couldn't do. Also you fail to understand the scale of things here. Metriodvania as ingenious or whatever his name is would define it is incredibly specific and limited. Too limited for innovation. Too limited for true variety. If everything strives to be exactly like super metriod, then everything becomes dull. Allowing games like dead cells, which mind you still shares a good 95% of the genre's traits, does not overload the genre and make it meaningless. Remember what I said , a metriodvania should be an exploration heavy side-scroller that features combat and some way to gate or guide the player organically. That's actually still incredibly specific, it's not going to make you mistake celeste for a metriodvania because it has levels that you can explore. Infact my definition still doesn't include rogue legacy, since it has no gating or organic guiding system. It has no "gotcha now I can do this" so it still doesn't fit in my apparently "over bloated" definition. All I'm saying is a genre where the requirements are so incredibly specific is doomed to repeat itself, Ori subverted metriodvania expectations by having no boss battles and focusing on platforming yet was amazing, dead cells is a roguelike but it still stays true to most other metriodvania mechanics, salt and sanctuary doesn't really have abilities but it has a metriodvania style world where you're instead gated by your gear, skill or by a boss, allowing for a similar backtracking "now I can do this" effect. Do you see what I mean? A slighter wider genre let's innovative titles thrive while keeping the genre limited a still incredibly specific gameplay loop.
@@jollygoodolgenderneutralin5152 No, it doesn't have that because it's a linear sequence of levels that are randomly generated every time. That sounds like nitpicking but it really isn't, you can never go back to do a thing you saw before because that thing was deleted from existence the instant you left. You do gain new abilities (although only two of them actually change how you play the game, the rest are just glorified keys) but you only use those to open up things that you'll find in the future, that's not backtracking it's just leveling up.
Also as I said before the game really has next to no exploration, which seems like a pretty big flaw if you're trying to cast it as an exploration game. The levels all generate in roughly the same ways which you should quickly learn so that you can dash to the exit in as little time as possible, you'll note that they actually encourage this style of play by incorporating a speedrunning system into the core gameplay.
If you do explore you'll find that most branches don't actually lead anywhere but to more enemies and that even if you take the time to hunt down every single level up you're often just breaking even with the reward you would have gotten from ignoring everything and reaching the exit in under the time limit. There's no real incentive for exploration and never any backtracking, you can either do a thing on this run or you can't.
I've only got 33 hours on the game which is far from a lot but that really just demonstrates how little there is to see, I was done "exploring" somewhere between 5-10 hours. Minor spoilers for people that haven't played that much, also it's worth pointing out that while there are alternate levels that unlock as the game goes on there's really no reward for doing that either. You see some cool new mechanics and enemies, fight some new bosses, get some new keys that will make future runs more profitable and gain two new abilities. After you get those things there's really no reason to ever go back into those levels again unless you're hunting an item or just want to mix things up so after the brief "hey, I wonder what's over here" discovery the game goes back to being completely linear.
None of this makes the game bad, in fact it's awesome. The most damning argument is that it plays nothing like metroidvania which is its main strength, it's a risk management game in which you try to rush through as quickly as possible and get as many upgrades as you kind while minimizing the resources lost in the process. It doesn't resemble the gameplay of a metroidvania in the slightest because it isn't trying to. I'm not sure why you'd even want to put it in the same box since the people who are trying to play exploration games won't get it here and the people who are trying to find intense, fast soulslike speedrunning aren't going to find it under the wrong label.
Ok, so all of that was Dead Cells. Now regarding how narrow the definition is you've really shown for yourself that that is false by bringing up Ori. It's definitely possible to make a metroidvania that adheres to the old ability gated progression but does something totally different with it. Super Metroid plays differently from Aria of Sorrow, which is different from Ori, which is different from Super Panda Adventures, which is different from Valdis Story, which is different from Axiom Verge, which is different from Owlboy, which is different from The Messenger, which is different from Iconoclasts. Hell, Yoku's Island Express has proven that you can make a great metroidvania out of PINBALL!
Nobody is saying all metroidvania games have to play the same. They have to include meaningful exploration, backtracking and ability upgrades that both change how the game is played and allow you to reach new areas. That's it and it isn't very limiting, is it? It doesn't say anything about how your character controls, what they can do, what their enemies can do, where any of this happening, what the upgrades are going to be, what other forms of progress there might be and so on. Metroidvania is a structural label more than a gameplay one, it describes what you're trying to do in the big picture but not what you're doing at each step of the way.
As you can see from the list above people have already answered that question in a wide variety of ways and will probably continue to innovate upon the genre. None of which requires completely abandoning the fundamental component of exploration and backtracking with new abilities, something that Dead Cells objectively lacks.
Restarting a run and going to the exact same block you saw in a previous run, just in a different location, is essentially backtracking. It serves the same gameplay purpose. And it gives the same "aha" moment. The key gameplay mechanic of deadcells is still essentially exploration as well, I've played let's just say far more then 32 hours and speed running is often a choice that isn't even beneficial. They encourage it and help it along a bit but exploration is often just as important if you want to find your favorite weapon or want to collect more cells. Also by the stricter definition, some of the games you mentioned wouldn't even qualify as a metriodvania, by some who require boss battles Ori even doesn't, and although axiome verge is great and all, it's mostly the definition of attempting to be like metriod. I clearly can't convince you, and your arguments don't convince me at all, so I don't think this argument is really worth it at all at this point. I do want to add that you never addressed the fact that my slightly more lenient definition wouldn't muddy the meaning of metriodvania, you just kind of moved past that to the claim about innovation in the metriodvania genre. Even if there were bucketloads of metriodvania innovation, you still wouldn't have provided a solid reason for why not to widen the definition slightly. Arguing about what feels like a metriodvania is stupid because what "feels" like a metriodvania really is on a per person basis, to me dead cells feels like one but to you it doesn't. Anyway, as I was saying there's no real way you'll be convinced and probably no way I'll be convinced, so I'll probably be ending this conversation in a reply or so. Neither of us are getting much out of it.
The experience of watching this video was a 10/10 for me, thank you. Below, an explanation:
1) I am eager & excited to find helpful videos, as an aspiring amatuer Unity dev.
2) I watched another video about 2d Metroidvania advice, and it focused on Hook & Loop; my initial GDD didn't have any outstanding gimmicks though, it very much is a love letter to C2:SQ, and all the other classics, with a heavy addition of complex melee combos... which sounds a lot like Blasphemous, except my setting isn't a memoriable Grimdark, more traditional Fantasy, so I felt like I was already in trouble without a real Hook to set me apart...this video basically says "If your Loop is Golden, then that IS your Hook." So thanks for restoring my confidence.
3: Great Audio. Your voice is nice & clear, and it's all mixed down great. The indy-dev community (especially Unity tutes) are delightfully globally diverse, but that comes at a cost... opportunities abound for everyone to learn more Audio!
4) This last bit will sound petty & cynical. Oh well. I usually start new hobbies & tasks very humble, assuming my skills will take years to develop, and that there is a huge barrier to entry... but when I see comment sections so filled with people who are so confidently wrong, even people who have been doing this for years missing the point or struggling with what I thought was intuitive or common sense, I get a jolt of motivation: maybe I'm secretly really good at this, and just haven't discovered it yet. Maybe there's hope, and it's not crippling that I waited so long to dive into this.
5) If you stuck with me this far & read all this, you're one of the real ones! You're awesome & good luck! Maybe we'll meet someday on a Con pannel talking about our famous, successful, & beloved Metroidvanias!
I bet there are a million SOTN defenders in the comments, but I can't help myself. My experience with the game is that there is a progression of good to better weapons. that progression is not very smooth, however, and it peaks really early. The progression of armors and items is a lot better, with the best stuff hard to reach and only showing up late in the game. With the weapons, you have to adjust your expectations. they are designed to be unique and interesting, not actually valuable. Bombs, in particular, are just nifty little distractions. 9/10ths of the stuff you find is just junk to screw around with. Especially the food. that stuff is almost worthless, but it is funny finding a bag of peanuts in a massive, gothic castle.
That said, I can see how this would be seen as a flaw. rooting around in the basement to find a sword that is actually worse than punching monsters with your bare hands is a pretty funny joke. rooting around and finding a sword that is just mediocre is infuriating.
And by no means is it the best Castlevania game either.
Oh yeah the game has many flaws, the worst for me is how easy it is (fortunately there are some hacks that balances the game and makes it almost perfect for me), but the castlevanias that came after symphony improoved a lot on those things (specially the ds ones)
You have to remember that it was the first time castlevania tried such game design back in 1997
10:48 I was just reflecting on this the other day. Exploration is always rewarded, be it via a more direct route or the scenic route, because there are *so many* things to discover but importantly also a vast *variety* of things to find. That way, they never become repetitive while always feel meaningful and useful.
Even the tidbits of lore snuck away in places are worth it.
A friend of mine made a bet with some of his friends, they said that if he could get all the trophies from the ps4 version of hollow knight in 3 months they'll give him $300, but if he failed he'll have to give them a ps4 (they all work on a game shop) and he said yes....boy what a mistake
After a week or so he was barely at 15% so he asked me for help (i've played all of the castlevania games and beaten most of them (stll need to beat both n64 games and all of the LoS) and all of the 2d metroids, also i love metroidvanias in general) and we started playing.
I found the game really fun and challenging! Also the characters where interesting and the map was huge!
But after finally getting that platinum i have to say that i'm f*cking done with hollow knight, God..f*cking....damit that game was so hard to 100% like what the f*ck??? Specially the god damn pantheons!
It took me a full month of playing almost every day to get through all of that sh*t!!
And i didn't had any problems with the platforming on the damn king's dream but ffs those boss rushes were so hard!
Evelyn lmfao colosseum of the fools was hard but it was easy enough if you play patiently I got it after a couple days
oscar. He’s talking about the pantheons not the coliseum. In the pantheons you have to fight multiple bosses in a row and in the last one you have to fight every boss in the game
The cool thing about hollow knight is that it genuinely is open ended, at least after gaining the mantis claw. You could go into the city of tears, deepnest and get the tram pass, crystal peak or resting grounds, and none of them is really the "correct" way to go.
Hornet: 0%void
:100%waifu
@Brendan Lewis You don't like her?
@Brendan Lewis its a joke dude.
Dissatisfaction with SotN’s reward model is actually how I landed on a rec for Hollow Knight. I felt that some of SotN’s weapons were memorable and unique enough to find and use, but the RPG mechanics created beef gates that urged you to let go of your darlings. If there were interesting weapons with opportunity costs, like the Holy Rod vs the Fist of Tulkas, or the Spike Breaker armor vs maybe another interesting armor (even scoot Relics into the armor or accessory slots!), rather than finding stat upgrades and downgrades, you’d find more and more equipment with unique uses, which would incentivize the main world to have more applications for those uses, as well as a tangle of challenging alternate paths for players with other equipment. (Compare the ubiquity of HK’s spikes with SotN’s, which are more compartmentalized.) This trade off dynamic is exactly why my friend recommended Hollow Knight’s badges.
But I totally agree about Hollow Knight’s sometimes too-open memory challenge. I walked past the entrance to Hollownest so early on that by the time I gained the ability to go there, I forgot I’d ever seen it. I checked every extreme of every path I could find, fought swarms of enemies who each took seven hits from my old nail, wondered how much further below Deepnest I’d have to go to finally reach the city, concluded that I was stuck...then went ‘lmao oh right the entrance was back in zone 2.’
I take your Hollow Knight and raise you... Ori and the Blind Forrest...
Ori is borderline a metroidvania, due to how linear the story is. I believe that linearity is one of the greatest strengths of the game, but tbf, it does push the limits of what really counts as a metroidvania.
Glad you showed Environmental Station Alpha. Great, ultra-low budget Metroidvania. Pretty brutal difficulty.
No one talking about toki tori 2, that is a metroidvania where instead of getting different abilities to progress you gain knowledge of how to solve puzzles. One of the best that i feel tick all those boxes and add to the genre itself
the good thing about the greenpath ledge is that speed runners jump, turn around and use the vengeful spirit to clip the character slightly to the left (2 casts) onto the ledge.
That's because Hollow Knight is the perfection of 2d Platformer Metroidvanias. I don't know if anyone can best Hollow Knight and how perfect it is, but I welcome people to continue to try.
Ori. Nuff said.
I disagree. I don't think it's perfect. No games are.
@@jaretco6423 oki, but it's pretty damn close. I think about going back and playing it all the time and sometimes I do.
Eh. I don't even think it's that close. Personally, I think it's overrated.
@@jaretco6423 oh? Like what?
Also, what do you consider a close to perfect metroidvania?
Glad to hear the Brinstar theme playing throughout the video
Metroid games literally give you the option to go to unreachable zones just by using enough skills like bomb jump, shine spark, and wall jump, these mechanics feel like cheating but are actually planned by developers and usually have a steep learning curve to perform rather than a single button press. For me, that is what makes a Metroidvania game, in fact, that's what makes it unique and rewarding. Hollow Knight while being a great game, doesn't even do half of what Metroid does in this aspect. I don't know if you even know about these skill-based abilities, let alone knowing about Metroidvania as a genre. This video was more of a let's swoon over Hollow Knight than a genuinely well-thought-out video.
Sorry dude, but I think you missed out on the best part of Metroid games while trying to let us know how much you love Hollow Knight. You Might as well have said, "I love Hollow Knight" for 16 minutes straight and it still wouldn't have made any difference to this video.
I can't speak for Metroid apart from Metroid Fusion (which has only one skip like this that's really, really hard to do) but I will speak for Hollow Knight.
You should see some of the Speedrunning/randomizer strategies in Hollow Knight. The any% speedrun grabs only 4 major items, fights 4 bosses, and skips a majority of the game because of inventive use of intended mechanics like the use of the Shade as a tool to pogo off of yourself to reach higher places. I mean, the ledge that ingeniousclown showed Hornet on he said you normally go around (which is true), but the speedrun strategy has you taking that path using Vengeful Spirit to access it and there is another way that new players might not figure out their first time but is absolutely available if you want to get into speedrunning but you haven't mastered the speedrun techniques yet. There's even a meme category called Great Hopper % that only works because of a very obscure shade skip that even the average Hollow Knight speedrunner won't know about.
By contrast, the randomizer can practically give most major items in the Forgotten Crossroads because there's at least one way out with almost every item in every given direction thanks to the world design and speedrun techniques like the Shade Skip. There's so much room for randomizer design in Hollow Knight because of how free the movement mechanics are, even from the start of the game.
@@aruretheincomprehensible20 I guess you should check out Super Metroid in that case. Fusion is considered very linear and it deviates from the original formula. Super Metroid is literally keeps the game more open than you would think. Bomb Jump alone can get you to places you wouldn't even think of.
@@benhardy8747 I definitely do need to check it out considering how core to the metroidvania genre it is, especially since (from my limited understanding of Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night) most of the metroidvanias I've played take more inspiration from Super Metroid than SotN.
That said, I don't like using emulators because to me, it feels like stealing, and I don't have a Super Nintendo (especially a controller) so I probably won't get the authentic Super Metroid experience anyways, especially on an emulator. I might make an exception for this one though, especially if Nintendo isn't going to rerelease it for the Switch.
@@benhardy8747 As someone who has watched plenty of speedruns and randomizers of both HK and SM...Yeah, you're wrong, HK has many times more skips and sequence breaks tricks than SM.
really great video, I have often been trying to find good metroidvanias, and when i then try them, I just sit and shout at the game, for not being a metroidvania, I think you nailed it perfectly.
for me, the most important part of a good metroidvania, is to be able to plunge into a unknown world, and to conquer the world, not to mistaken with completing the game, but to conquer the world, by getting to the point, where it could be your second home. as you said, getting familiar with the world.
which is one of the reasons I keep going back to super metroid. after plunging in to so many unkown worlds, sometime, I just have to go back home and relax, and see if there are some nucks and crannies that I haven't discovered yet. I have beaten the game more times than I can remember, but it never seizes to amaze me how intricate it is... it is one of the few games i can whole heartedly say that I have conquered.
11:56 "da wae" really... am i just hearing that clown or did you do that frickin intentionally.... I SWEAR IF YOU DID THAT ITENTIONALLY
I'll never tell 😏
DAMN YOU CLOWN!!
The cliff in green path can be crossed early by nail-pogoing the squit or by using a speedrunning trick with vengeful spirit.
What is your favourite metroidvania? I like super Metroid the most.
It's the best 🙂
That would be Hollow Knight.
Ori and the Blind Forest. :)
Definitely Ori and the Blind Forest. It's probably my favorite game of all time. But we'll see about that when the sequel comes out. :)
Either Super Metroid or Metroid Prime 2. Or Axiom Verge.
I played Hollow knight for what seems like 5-10 hrs, got my nail upgrade, beat a boss arena, and got really bored with the game. There's two major issues I have with HK vs Metroid Dread. Firstly, the controls of HK feel obnoxiously clunky, mostly due to how small the hitbox is for your nail. It also feels like I'm in quicksand most of the time. Secondly, the story is just very uninteresting to me, to the point where I don't care about any of these weird looking creatures.
Equip longnail or mark of pride, the uninteresting design of the characters and the story is not Team Cherry's fault