Will Seattle's Streetcars Ever Connect?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Seattle has a pair of modern streetcars, and for some reason they've never linked them together. Instead, they serve two different goals in two different parts of the city. So why did they end up this way, and could they ever be unified as one system?
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Classy Whale - at-least-weekly misadventures with trains and transit!
The lack of courage to remove automobiles from the streetcar lanes really doomed it.
On the occasions where parts of the light rail network are down for planned or unplanned maintenance, the CapHill to International District streetcar would be really useful - if it weren’t getting stuck in traffic with everything else.
Also, the 1-line exists, and it connects Chinatown to Cap. I used to live in China town, and I would only take the stop shown at 3:00 a few times to get to the Cap. Hill QFC, which had a stop (somewhat) nearby. Otherwise buses were just so much more frequent, and convenient getting around Cap. Hill/Chinatown area.
How do you do that? These are street cars and cars are going to have to use those lanes at some point in the journey.
If your solution to something that doesn't work is to ban something that will never be banned then you should accept streetcars are obsolete. The subway killed the streetcar. Cars simply accelerated the demise of this outdated form of transit
@@SmallSpoonBrigadebig fines
@@SmallSpoonBrigadeIt amazes me how little people know about history. 🤷🏻♂️
As a person who lives in SLU without a car, I still never ride the nearby line. It's just too short to be useful. To get to the nearest stop, I'd have to walk 4-5 blocks, then wait for a streetcar to arrive. By the time that happens, I could have just walked directly to either end of the line. Meanwhile, the buses that run along Fairview and Westlake were full any time I looked at them at rush hour since they're the transit that actually brings people to/from Amazon's buildings going North.
I've been studying an alternate Streetcar Connector route mainly because operation (safety for motorists, transit patrons, pedestrians, cyclists) in the Left Lanes with Median stations is highly questionable accidents waiting to happen. So, I considered a 1st Ave/2nd Ave Streetcar couplet; uphill on 1st Ave in the right lane, turn east on Pike or Pine to 6th Ave then north to Westlake. From Westlake on Stewart to 2nd Ave then south to a Jackson Street "wye" (rail turns east & west on Jackson). Mainly the streetcar would return on 1st Ave instead of heading east to Capitol Hill.
The turn east on Pike to 6th Ave north would have a station for Convention Center patrons. A 2nd phase would add a streetcar loop from Westlake on John Street to a 5th Ave turn north and Thomas Street east and re-enter the line. Convention Center patrons get a direct route to Seattle Center Grounds, from there to So Lake Union, from there to near Pike Place Market on 2nd Ave, from there to Pioneer Square.
A 3rd phase of this streetcar connector system would extend the First Hill Streetcar line into this "Streetcar Circulator" on 1st Ave and then via Yesler to an Alaskan Way median to an Aquarium or cruise dock end of line. Heck, a streetcar line to Interbay may be possible. Anyway, the truth is, Seattle activists are very picky about who gets to say what's best for everyone. Seattle and Warshington State DOT agencies are pretty much dictatorial. I was sure glad Jay Inslee dropped out of the Presidential race.
A lot of the problem with the South Lake Union streetcar is that SLU is the type of neighborhood that there’s basically no reason to visit if you don’t work there, and there’s basically no reason to stay there after work. I worked at Amazon in SLU for about a year in 2012, and the whole entire neighborhood felt fake and contrived, nothing but offices and a few spaces for overpriced hipster bars that ultimately saw (and likely still see) very high turnover. The old pre-Amazon neighborhood was nothing to write home about, but basically everything that existed there has been gentrified into oblivion. The Amazon employees have their own shuttles to and from the major transit hubs so there’s basically no need for them to use the streetcar (which the ridership numbers seem to reflect.) on the couple of occasions when I used the streetcar I found it to be basically no faster than riding a bus along the same road, and probably no faster than walking if it was rush hour.
Westlake Center, as nondescript as it may be, may have the unique distinction of being one of the few places in the world to be home to not one, but two different gadgetbahns.
I live in Capitol Hill (work from home) and I go to SLU 2-3x a week... ride the streetcar most visits. I actually really like the vibe there and the buildings.
the only thing interesting about the area is the MOHAI, and if it the SLUT was better connected, i bet it would help the cruises and Kenmore Air as well as any outdoor outfitters renting paddle on the lake gear.
No. Paul Allen died - he was the driving force behind the Seattle Streetcar.
Sad that hwy 99 got a tunnel through downtown. that money should have gone to an Alaskan way waterfront streetcar.
@@BirbarianHomeGuard Or both in a more balanced approach to transportation funding...
@@BirbarianHomeGuard What was the alternative though? Surface street would never have worked due to how much traffic is involved with the highway and the ferries. And an elevated structure would have involved tearing down the old viaduct before even beginning to build a new one.
The tunnel itself was more or less the only viable option for moving that traffic past downtown.
As far as the streetcar goes, I miss it, but when the maintenance building got demolished to build the sculpture garden, there wasn't really any way of preserving it. Which was kind of a dumb move as it was one of the best things about the waterfront. You could hop on the trolley rather than walking the rather long distance between things on the waterfront. From what I understand, there are buses now, but that's just not the same.
“Let’s see Paul Allen’s streetcar” said the American Psycho, who did not live in Seattle
Seattle got two stadiums before the death trap that was the viaduct was removed.
That kind of tells you where priorities lie.
i mean, in busy downtowns, without dedicated transit lanes for most, if not all of their route, streetcars really do suffer and don't make sense. in a city with trollybusses, which do pretty much everything a streetcar already does (use electricity without being a gadgetbahn of an electric bus), streetcars don't make that much sense. put an articulated trollybus in and the only downside is rubber particulates.
+1. I never understood the upside of streetcars. A trolley bus can do everything a streetcar can
Unfortunately might not in the near future. There have been proposals, but all have failed. It seems like the best chance now is when there are new people on the st board but that woud take upwards of 20 years to plan and build. Especially since Seattle transit expansions are notorious for being delayed
I miss the waterfront streetcar 😔
Honestly the fact that 5000 riders per day for one of these lines is considered ok is baffling. In Denmark where I'm from, one of our 2 new tram systems, the Odense light rail, which is 14.5km long in a city of 182k residents, has around 18.000-20.000 passsengers per day and thats considered a failure, far below estimates, since the investment in the line was justified around a projected ridership of 35.000 passengers per day. Most of the cityhall in Odense thankfully seems interested in extending their system by a few kilometers with phase 2, creating a second line going to the northeast, with a proposal that has gotten government co-funding. Though many, especially loudmouths on social media, are heavily against the tram, claiming it to be the cause of reductions in welfare and bus service, and spouting urban planning conspiracies about how it takes lanes away from cars and is killing downtown.
Most modern streetcars in the usa, including those two are neoliberal gentrification projects, where actually transporting people is a complete afterthought
2:27 the white livery with the flowers on car 402 has been around since before the FHS line opened. I distinctly remember getting crapped on by a crow while waiting to take a photo of that vehicle passing Union Station during pre-revenue testing in November 2015.
Seattle streetcars are drier than waking the same distance, but rarely faster
I don't think there is more than a few places where the street car is better than a bus or the 1-line. I used to live in China town, and I would only take the stop shown at 3:00 a few times to get to the Cap. Hill QFC, which had a stop (somewhat) nearby. Otherwise buses were just so much more frequent, and convenient getting around Cap. Hill/Chinatown area. Anything further and buses and the 1-line were really the only option. Even going from 12th and Jackson to the Chinatown station I would just take a bus or walk to the 1-line station. There is like 3 or 4 buses that stop on the northwest corner, which is where I was coming from. As you addressed, buses aren't any slower due to traffic, and often they were considerably faster. If the stop is blocked for one reason or another, the street car has to wait. Buses just pull up further along, or you can ask to get off and most drivers don't care they aren't at a stop.
Funny thing, I actually tripped on the light rail track shown at 3:02 (Where the car turns at Yesler and Broadway) running down to the F-Line Buses by Pioneer Square station. Ate shit and skid across the street on the asphalt, removing a few layers of skin from my knee, still have a huge scar 2.5 years later. Not sure whether to blame the street car or myself.
I like the idea of street cars, but I just don't see them as much, if at all better than electric trolley buses. One massive complaint I have against them is their entrances. Buses have an exit or two and an entrance. While not all passengers follow as they should, it is more obvious what the flow of traffic should be. There is always a ton of congestion when more than about 5 people are waiting for the street car. I've been shoved to the ground by strangers (on purpose, like literally physical assault) twice, and I've probably ridden somewhere around 200x more buses in Seattle than street cars, and never had it happen there. I think street cars would make more sense in a city / part of a city where car traffic is restricted. If they could operate in an otherwise pedestrian path I think their usefulness would be so much greater. As it is right now, it takes an extremely specific usecase for the streetcar to always be the best option.
Brilliant video, shame it's not one unified system.
Sound Transit will be closing the entire South Lake Union Streetcar for Ballard Link Extension Construction around Denny for EIGHT years. This is a most concerning amount of time, however, we may rest assured that per the already approved Sound Transit project guideline, it *MUST* come back after construction.
That that's a question that needs to even be answered in writing to assuage citizens' fears of project dissolution (especially after the failure of the monorail project), let alone under a cover of a protracted transit construction project RELATED to it, that's pretty fucked up imo.
"We assure you that unlike last time we will not take the living room PC away for cleaning and reinstalling Windows and instead disassemble and sell it once we realize it doesn't support 11 or something"
@@arbayer2 there was no last time. The reason we ask this question and speculated was because the streetcar is basically useless, one of the lowest ridership in the country and was built to get from downtown to some tech headquarters, but for obvious reasons it’s not used very often nowadays, and so for a closure that long, we all just wanted to make sure that they weren’t going to be reevaluating the need for it and that it would come back no matter what, and, it will.
I just want this to be completed 😮💨
Hope you saw the Center for Wooden Boats at South Lake Union!
I missed it! There's always next time...
In addition to not connecting enough neighborhoods, the Seattle streetcars are way too slow. A typical able-bodied person can out-walk them. The slowness increases commute times for riders and holds up traffic for others. On top of that, the lack of seating on the streetcars make them not a great option for people who are not able-bodied. Sure, if you have a wheelchair, you bring your own chair that can strap in, but many people who are able to stand, can't stand for long periods or struggle to balance while in motion. I like the idea of the streetcar, but in terms of the ones we have, the bus lines are way more practical.
Unless you have lived in Seattle long enough to remember the TVM's on the Waterfront Streetcar, you are but an alcoholic party nerd.
This is the second most Seattle comment I've ever gotten
fixed rail transit is a dumb idea.
Why
If it's such a dumb idea, why does most of the developed world prefer and enjoy fixed rail transit?
@@ClassyWhale I think we should separate grade separated fixed rail transit from street cars. The former 2 are frequently a very good idea if you've properly planned the routes. Street cars though are pretty stupid in most cases as they still need the same streets as cars do and still compete for space and still cross each other. They have the added downside of not being able to get around blockages and being far more expensive if you want to change a route.
The 73 route is a good example, most days it travels south along University Way but on Saturdays it gets redirected onto 15th for a short stretch. There's also the snow routes that you can't really do with trains.
@@spydula1 Most of the world uses the metric system, that doesn't mean that it's a good idea for us to adopt it. Fixed rail transit can be a great idea, or it can be a horrible idea and a lot of that has to do with where you are in development and how good your models are for the growth patterns of the area. In Seattle, it's a particularly dumb idea to have street cars because the city has a lot of hills and trying to run street cars up and over hills is a logistical headache compared with just running other types of transit.
that being said, I think that subways and elevated rail would be an appropriate choice for expansion, at least for the broad cross town trips to transfer points to shorter shuttle bus routes. And I'd love to see a horseshoe shaped route that went from West Seattle to somewhere between Queen Anne and Magnolia to clear up the absolute worst part of the mass transit situation.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade I hear you. And I agree; the majority of streetcars implemented in North America are a disappointment.
However, I don't think the problem lies with streetcars themselves. What separates trams in Amsterdam from streetcars in Seattle?
The lack of dedicated Right of Way (ROW), dearth of signal priority, and low latent demand for transit along routes make for some of the most unused, traffic-ridden, slow-moving streetcars in the world. Coupled with low frequencies, and you have at best a vanity project... **cough cough** Atlanta Streetcar.
I don't think all is lost with the existing streetcars in North America. Signal priority is the lowest hanging fruit. Dedicated ROWs would reduce necessary stops. Pedestrianization and Transit Oriented Development (TOD) along routes could help induce demand.
Unfortunately, many of our streetcars are next to useless as they are now; but with the right advocacy, subsequent policy change, and augmentation to the system, we can and will have great streetcars in North America.
Most comments on this thread are woefully misinformed as to the history of mass transit in the US. 🤷🏻♂️
You're arguably one of the worst offenders.
Firstly, I don’t take the street car most of the time because it could take 15 minutes for a car to come by, and I could have walked to my destination by then. Second off, not at least extending the First Hill line down the new waterfront was a complete miss.
In the wake of the CCC being cancelled, some of us in the Seattle transit community have been toying with the idea of extending the First Hill line down to the waterfront and then Seattle Center, possibly even forming into a loop. The SLU line couldn't be extended to it though because of steep hills around Pike Place, so it would have to be extended in some other way, whether that's down 1st Ave to SODO or 5th Ave to the International District. The two lines could also be extended to connect in Eastlake, but business groups got a FHS extension to Roy St cancelled a while back and unsuccessfully tried to cancel the RapidRide J Line through Eastlake.
Another factor to consider is that the whole downtown is incredibly steep, so running something to 1st Ave or the waterfront where no transit currently exists is a matter of accessibility.
Lots of ideas being thrown around, possibly none of them ever being built, but people like the First Hill line so something could happen
We used to have cable cars going up those hills, Seattle tore them out. 🤷🏻♂️
It amazes me that making them one coherent line was considered as an afterthought and not like step 1 in a project to revive a larger network of streetcar lines around Seattle. Even Detroit has a downtown circulator and a battery operated tram. Too bad in that case though they AREN'T one in the same... Just two separate networks that do connect albeit awkwardly...
The only reason they were made in the first place was because Vulcan demanded it. There are a lot of issues with trolleys in Seattle. People forget that the street cars that San Francisco has are the descendants of the ones they traded their ferries for. As in we would still have the street cars if they made any sense. Ferries in WA make far more sense than the street cars did. And even today, people want better bike infrastructure, but the street car tracks themselves are just not compatible with bikes. So, you get a street car that nobody really wants, that interferes with both car and bike traffic, and people are surprised that there's so little interest in building it out.
@@SmallSpoonBrigade the "streetcars" the bay area traded their ferries for were actually interurbans run by the Key System (unaffiliated with SFMTA) and are long gone. San Francisco never completely got rid of their local street railways, and current Muni Metro services run on surviving trackage. Not sure what the ferry comparison is for, as there was never any rail service to Bainbridge island or the Olympic peninsula that directly competed with the state ferries. The main reason for the original Seattle streetcar network's demise was the advent of the trolleybus (which are amazing, but suffer from the same higher operator-to-passenger ratio as any other bus). I've also personally never had an issue riding a bike over street trackage- you just need to cross as perpendicularly as possible- some cities plan for this, such as Portland, San Francisico and Minneapolis.
Making light rail connect to the freaking airport was an afterthought that thankfully got adopted!
@@FerryTerminal68 That was always somewhat vague. Anyways, the point is that ferries make sense here, street cars make far more sense there where they can actually be used year round.
The First Hill streetcar having a special wrap for the Asian community that honors the three ethnic neighborhoods with three different flowers is a nice touch! Love that the Turkish Airlines wrap of the First Hill streetcar promotes Cappadocia! Cappadocia is such a cool place, not only are they famous for their hot-air balloons, but the iconic fairy chimney terrain and subterranean cities are incredible! Cappadocia's rock formations emerged due to a geological process that began millions of years ago. Ancient volcanic eruptions blanketed the region in thick ash, which later solidified into a soft rock called ‘tuff’. When the natural forces of wind and water (erosion) did their work, only the harder elements were left behind to form the ‘fairy chimneys’ that can be seen today. It is believed that the underground cities of Cappadocia were initially built during the eighth and seventh centuries BCE by the Phrygians, who carved their living spaces into the region’s soft volcanic rock. It was also human ingenuity that has given Cappadocia its magical aesthetic. During the Roman period, persecuted Christians fled to Cappadocia, and soon came to the realization that tuff was a useful, malleable material.
The inhabitants set about building a network of handmade caves, living quarters, churches, stables, and storehouses, all dug into the soft rock. Underground cities also had to be built due to the possibility of hostile forces discovering their refuge. Almost 10-storeys deep and connected by narrow passages, these subterranean cities could hide as many as 20,000 people (like Derinkuyu) at a time! Ventilation shafts were disguised as wells, while large rolling stone doors were put in place to protect entrances. In contrast to the underground cities are rock castles or castle mountains, such as Uçhisar and Ortahisar. These are 60-to-90-metre-high rock outcrops that are crisscrossed by a tangle of passageways and rooms. The castles also served as refuges from danger and could be sealed with door-stones similar to those in the underground cities. They could accommodate around 1,000 people. In addition, collections of residences and other rooms are carved into cliff faces. The largest of these is Zelve and the best-known is Göreme, but whole cities of these cliff buildings can also be seen at Soğanlı valley, Gülşehir, and Güzelyurt.
The following is a message from Sydney: Seattle should copy George Street and use a pedestrian transit mall to connect the two streetcar lines with those important downtown destinations you mentioned. Similar to Sydney, emergency vehicles would be allowed, giving quicker emergency response times without the noise of sirens, along with delivery vehicles if needed at select points to access selected garages or loading bays only accessible off the pedestrianized street.
We actually already have some tunnels between buildings downtown! I think this would work well.
I have been on both of the streetcars when waiting for the 2 Line opening. And the thing about the rider ship gap between the two was confirmed with my one ride of the First Hill having more people on than South Lake Union had, especially during a Saturday in the early morning.
Dear Jeff Bezos,
You want to regain some goodwill towards Amazon? Put that money towards fully connecting the streetcar lines.
You're one of the wealthiest men on the planet - however much it'd cost to build that Cultural Connection, you'd probably make it all back by the end of the month, at LATEST.
SLU cost $32 per rider to maintain, not counting construction cost! Luxary limos would be cheaper.
Love all the trolleybuses you showed in the background! It's great when places like Philly, Dayton, San Francisco, many Russian cities, Pyongyang, Vancouver, and Seattle have trolleybuses! The first trolleybus to operate on Seattle's streets was in 1937. It was brought to the city for a demonstration to gain public support for a plan to replace the debt-ridden streetcar and cable car system with a "trackless trolley" system. While a successful demonstration, Seattle voters rejected it in March 1937. In 1939, Seattle received a federal loan that allowed the city to retire the debts from the streetcar and cable car system. Management of the system was turned over to an independent commission, renamed the STS or Seattle Transit System. The commission immediately began construction on overhead wire and ordered many trolleybuses, with the first in revenue service in April 1940.
The Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel used to have special dual-mode trolleybuses, but as the tunnel was futureproofed for light-rail, the overhead wire for them was replaced for the light-rail, and so hybrid electric buses were used in the tunnel instead. When the light-rail opened in 2009, the tunnel had shared bus and light-rail operations until March 2019 when tunnel bus service finally ceased after Convention Place station was closed in 2018 for expansion of the Washington State Convention Center.
I live in downtown Toronto, I have 4 24hr streetcar routes 501, 504, 505, 506, they’re less than 500 meters way from my house. We also have a bus running north south between all 3 streetcar routes. Nights and early mornings are the best no traffic so they run fast. If Seattle linked the 2 they have more people would ride.
The problem though is that these are rail cars in a city with many steep hills and they're routed with that in mind. These weren't projects that the people demanded, they were demanded by developers. They go where they do for a reason and increasing them makes no sense when we're already trying to build up a bunch of bike infrastructure. It would make far more sense to dig a horseshoe shaped line around much of the city and just give the stupid street cars a pass.
I don't think that anyboy is actually requesting an expansion of the streetcars. We've already got buses that cover the route. And, practically nothing runs at night here.
First Hill is the most convenient way for me to get to Cap Hill without a car, and aside from the medical campus I exclusively go to Cap Hill for socializing, so it not being the fastest isn't a problem for me. For residents along Rainier that take advantage of the couple of quieter neighborhoods with free parking before Cap Hill taking the streetcar is a no-brainer imo, I've never not been on a packed tram going to and from the area. What's fascinating to me is that when I went to Seattle Center for pride, the monorail was *the* option for transit from Westlake - which would mean for someone coming from like, my neighborhood who didn't want to drive to Beacon or Mount Baker they'd need to take First Hill -> 1 Line -> Monorail. It makes sense in theory, but I'd honestly love for an interconnected system to avoid that awkward transition and at least get people close to Seattle Center without the needed train change.
3:56 Whoa! Good comment about the shelter maintenance! Nice video summary about these two lines- and props for the overhead street views. The SLU line is obviously a vanity project, and if it went away no one would miss it. And, yes, it does get delayed in traffic: see Westlake Ave. and Denny Way, northbound, in front of Whole Foods during the evening rush, as the streetcar gets blocked by vehicles headed uphill on Denny.
Regarding connecting the two: you wouldn't ride it to get from Capitol Hill to SLU or even downtown, as the routing is too circuitous, and vice versa. The only real value would be from Pike Place to Pioneer Square (hello, tourists!), and a rubber-tired trolley could do that for a fraction of the cost.
Finally, it's a crime that Seattle didn't have the political courage to insist that the state DOT include a streetcar connection when the "Little Dig", aka the Alaskan Way viaduct removal-and-tunnel project was being designed. Now that I think about it, they should extend the First Hill line from its terminus at Pioneer Square down to the waterfront instead of up First Ave. How about it, SDOT?
Great job.!! Thanks for sharing this. Ugh about them not connecting, these are the kind of things that frustrate so much with transit in North America particularly the U.S.
Here in Australia we call streetcars and light rail “trams”, because they’re literally the same thing.
No they're not. Just like in the US, in Europe they call streetcars trams and light rail Stadtbahns, or tram-trains. Light rail and streetcars differ in everything from the vehicles used, to the stop spacings, to the average and top speeds, to the degree of grade separation, to the vastly different ridership numbers.
Just because you lot down undah' have the nomenclature wrong doesn't mean that the rest of the world should.
They would have the South Lake Union Tram, and you'd ride the SLUT 🤣
@@TohaBgood2 We have routes in Australia that have both on-street running, and closely-spaced stops, followed by sections that run in their own right of way, with higher speeds and more spaced-out stops, all served by the same vehicle. They're the same thing.
@@jdillon8360 No, they're not the same thing. You just call them the same name, thus confusing the riders about what he capabilities of the respective systems are and how they should be used. You also mix those two modes in Australia leading to very uneven performance. The same line can be both slow and fast depending on the section you're riding. It can average 5 mph or 35 mph, and you can't tell how long you'll get to your station by just looking at a map.
In the countries with a longer history of rail transit like those in Europe, or even in the US where half the country was built on streetcars (trams) and interurbans (old form of light rail), we different systems that aren't mixed and the need to differentiate between the two.
Streetcars are slow city center "rail busses". Light rail is a regional system that is almost commuter rail, like a pre-metro.
Well, I'm guessing that the difference between the two riderships is that the SLU Streetcar serves a large tech worker population, which, since the pandemic, has largely switched to teleworking, while the First Hill Streetcar serves a large hospital worker population - Swedish, Harborview, Providence, and PolyClinic - which doesn't telecommute.
Amazon has taken a hard line in demanding that their employees return to offices compared to a lot of other companies, so the workers should (theoretically) be there. Amazon has a significant network of their own private shuttle buses though, which largely makes it unnecessary for their workers to use the streetcar. Meta and Google (which also have significant presence in the area now) have an even larger network, including their own commuter buses.
Pretty sure the "broken old sign" at 3:50 is a new-ish sign. 🤣
Short answer, No
Long answer Noooooo.
But seriously I was just taking about how this is a shame
Of course not, that would just make too much sense
The Waterfront line was supposed to come back after the viaduct came down, but obviously it didnt. So the idea that the SLU line won't survive Ballard Link is sadly a real possibility
No, it wasn't. I was part of the team that did the initial clean up on part of what became the Olympic Sculpture garden nearly 25 years ago. This was at least a year before they even started to evaluate the viaduct replacement options.
The reason why the waterfront line was discontinued was because the land that the maintenance sheds was located was included in the sculpture park.
FTA and Rogoff found this out...
Good video, well-written
Seattle has a long history of taking decades to decide that they are going to do something, another decade or two to plan and finally a decade to build.. We have a bike /walking trail called the Burke Gilman trail that runs for 20 miles through the city. It stops abruptly in the Ballard neighborhood for 1.4 miles until it resumes again in the Fremont neighborhood. The so called "missing link" has been under study since 1990 and now some 34 years later the plan is 30% complete. So at the same pace the plan will be 100% complete by 2103. Who knows how long will will take to build.
I thought that was insane to have that gap over a few construction/industrial companies complaining about road access...I just crossed the river and biked into downtown Seattle when I first rode the BG trail as a visitor.
Admittedly I don't know much about the light rail in Seattle in particular, but it would be great if people in North America would stop using the expressions "light rail" and "street cars" and just use the word tram. That way it would be more obvious that the same vehicles can be used both on fast grade separated dedicated right of ways and also street running, either with dedicated lanes or even in mixed traffic.
Ignoring that I don't know that the light rail infrastructure looks like (except the pictures on Wikipedia...), the street car lines could connect to the light rail at Westlake, Capitol Hill and Intl Dist/Chinatown and/or Pioneer Square. That way you could for example have a service running South Lake Union - Pioneer Square, a service running Uni of Washington - Stadium via the street car line, and whatnot.
I get that the light rail uses longer trains, but as long as the infrastructure isn't at capacity it's possible to mix shorter and longer trains.
Also the 750/1500V voltage difference isn't a big problem. For example 10 of the class A32 trams used in Stockholm, Sweden, spent their initial life running on a dutch railway with 1500V DC electrification, and was later sold to Stockholm and at that time the additional equipment for 1500V DC was removed as Stockholm uses classic 750V DC tram electrification. (As a side track, in Germany there are trams that can run both on 750V DC and 16kV AC, and there are also trams that can run on 750V DC and diesel, used for various tram-train lines).
Not sure about the platform height though but the light rail trains seem to have a relatively low platform.
Btw, re cleaning the stops: You kind of have to observe a cycle between cleaning to tell if it's really the transit agency doing a bad work at keeping the stops clean, or if it's just some people "throwing eggs" at the stops. (I wouldn't want to pay the cost of replacing an LCD screen with a minor defect as long as it doesn't seriously impair readability. Those will fail every now and then and not replacing it immediately mostly lowers the maintenance cost. Also it seems like a better investment to have multiple screens, visible from different parts of the stop/shelter. Don't know about Seattle in particular but in general this is a good idea as it makes it easier to avoid other passengers that behave annoyingly, has a repelling smell or whatnot).
The issue there is that it's pointless, one of the street cars comes to a block away from the light rail stop and the other crosses over the top. Trying to get them closer would have been prohibitively expensive.
The bigger issue is that these lines have no reason to exist. The areas that they cover would better be covered by other options.
Sadly I don’t expect they will. I know many of my fellow transit advocates in the city don’t the street care in general. And I get it it’s slow. But we get a lot of tourists who I’ve noticed really like the SLU line. The First Hill Line while slow its for sure useful and was created to supplement the inability to make a Light rail station in First Hill.
Anyway I think if anything has to happen the SLU Line could be sacrificed. The First HIll Line needs to stay. The areas it covers are far more dense then SLU. A lot of the building near the SLU line are just office spaces. The First Hill line has lots of density and apartments around it and the College and the medical centers. It should get more improvements and maybe try to push again for it to go a bit more up Broadway at least to E Roy Street.
These street cars are pretty much the dumbest thing ever. There's a reason why it took nearly 40 years to get a new street car after the old ones were discontinued and why the specific route along the waterfront was chosen.The trolleybuses that replaced them are still used in some parts of the system because they're a much better solution. They have the traction to climb hills. If one breaks down it can be towed out of the way, and they have the necessary reach to go around a single lane of traffic if something breaks down in their path.
I remember working downtown and on the weekends when the tunnel wasn't in operation for my route, I'd see basically nobody riding. As in they were running the train knowing that nobody was riding it.
The whole deal with the first hill line being hybrid to some extent is quite intriguing, from an operation standpoint.
Also 8:17 NCTM cameo 👀👀
Great vid! I'm confused by the Palm Desert ad wrap on a train in Washington...
there were plans, then the downtown bus tunnel and later the light rail line linked the two areas, removing the need for both streetcars to be physically connected/combined into one system
They probably do clean the stations. But the homelessness problem is so bad in the city that the cleanliness can be ruined in a single day. I've seen it with my own eyes; one place clean then extremely dirty the next day after people set up shop there. I'm sympathetic to the homeless but the problem definitely impacts the area
Do the homeless sleep on the roof of the little shelters? Not sure how all that dirt can be chalked up to one problem...
@@ClassyWhale The roof I don't have an explanation for; I'm also not trying to attribute everything to that single problem. But managing the impact of homelessness is a constant topic in Seattle, and the rest of the infrastructure being dirty (including the trams/busses) is at least partially attributable to the homelessness crisis. I don't have a political agenda in bringing this up; I'm sympathetic to the problem and realize it's hard to solve.
Lived in Seattle for 25 years and have approved and pushed for virtually every transit option that has been floated around the region since the late 90's...with the major exception of the SLU street car. Back when it was proposed, I could not see how that route would ever draw ridership, even if business revitalization happened. The revitalization and development happened, but the people who work in those spaces don't have problems moving that 1.3 miles in a way that a street car makes sense. I knew it would be a failure 20 years ago, and nothing that happened since has proven me wrong. The First Hill line, on the other hand, made perfect sense, and the citizens in those neighborhoods agree.
YAY
“bike ways” 😃
wait i predicted what the video said what
WHAT
You can connect to both via the Link Light Rail.
I’m thankful I got to ride both lines on my first and only visit to Seattle. It’s a great little network and it would be a serious shame if the citizens of Seattle give this up. Connecting the two lines seems like a no brainer and should be at the forefront of projects for the city.
We didn't give it up, we never wanted it in the first place. We wanted a monorail system and after several successful votes, the opponents were eventually able to have a vote to withdraw the permits. We did eventually get a basic light rail system that should be going from beyond the southern city limit to the northern city limits later this month. But, the light rail was purely put in because a local developer demanded it, not because it filled a role that couldn't be more appropriately filled with buses.
It makes literally no sense to add street cars in a city with so many hills while also trying to make the streets safer for bikes as part of our plans to reduce carbon emissions.
You do not live here. Transit is mainly for locals. The trillies are slower than walking.
It seems pretty obvious why they'll never connect - what rides would the connection serve? Streetcar is too slow for the longer trips the connection would enable. My "better" pet project is extending South Lake Union Tram up Eastlake to UW/U-District Light Rail stop.
Yes, Either above the ground or below the ground, having street cars literally in the street causes so many issues. The street car that used to operate along the waterfront was a pretty good exception as it was off the street and just had to cross a few times. As a way of ferrying people back and forth along the waterfront it made a lot of sense.
The current street cars make no sense at all, and connecting them would be an absolute mess. Best to leave them as is, or better replace them with something that does make sense.
The connection would be pointless end-to-end, but it would provide plenty of service for local trips along 1st Ave (which currently has no bus service), especially for people arriving at either King Street or Westlake. Even though it's parallel to the subway, it would help prevent the need to trek further uphill from the waterfront (direct access to Pike Place alone is worth the extension IMO). A U-District extension would be awesome, but likely won't happen until the University Bridge is replaced or seismically retrofit.
@@FerryTerminal68 people arriving either location should be taking light rail. They can then walk to 1st Ave.
@@manzell walking downhill from 3rd is easy for most people- it's the walk back uphill that becomes challenging, especially for the elderly and/or disabled. Getting down to the subway level takes more time than a street-level stop. 1st Ave has four thru lanes, plus parking- there is more than enough room to make the streetcar ROW a transit-only lane if built.
@@FerryTerminal68 point to point service is not a reasonable objective. We've got scarce resources and need to maximize them.
I have yet to hear why they can’t just put a bus down first that would serve the same purpose. We’ve already got electric lines overhead on first.
Streetcars are the ultimate in political handout graft. More expensive and less reliable than a bus, with the same service and use case. Streetcars were torn out in the 50s for a reason: cars and buses were simply more competitive for the same trips. Now streetcar routes get built up in tourist corridors as a carrot for developers without any long-term thinking on transit effectiveness against the bus routes they replaced.
Once again, somebody who knows HALF of the history chimes in. Streetcars DID have right-of-way and cars did NOT. Laws were changed in cities to make streetcars SHARE r-o-w with cars. Then, it was all over. So, read a little before commenting.
@@vipermad358 Never mentioned ROW. Streetcars were, by definition, substantially at-grade, and shared ROW with pedestrians, equestrians, and carriages. Railway is expensive to maintain and route, which is why buses became popular alternatives as soon as they became cheap enough for municipalities to use. It was pointless to use a fixed-route streetcar when buses could traverse steeper grades and change routes at will without having to spend capital to tear up or lay tracks.
@@vipermad358 How is that applicable? The line that starts out on Capital Hill literally shares lanes with car traffic at points due to the streets not having the space to add the necessary 2 lanes for the street cars and space for a loading platform. Whether they've got the ROW or not is not relevant to just how horribly ill-conceived of they are.
The one spot where they made any sense doesn't have them, and likely never will again, due to the sculpture garden taking away the maintenance building for the ones that used to run up and down the waterfront.