One doesn't become guitarist for Miles Davis by being conventional, unsurprising, and just having the technical ability to move his fingers really fast. At 80 years old, McLaughlin literally just finished his last tour a few days ago, and was just in the US reunited with Shakti, and still has incredible command of the guitar. Fluidity, speed, tone, and note choice all still incredible. I still vividly recall many looks of awe and surprise on the face of Jimmy Herring as he and McLaughlin traded licks on Mahavishnu material on their double bill tour in 2017, still one of the greatest nights of music in my life.
I was blessed to attend Shakti's two concerts in London. I've seen him in various shows over the last 20 years but will forever be grateful to have seen Shakti my favorite of John's incarnations. Two of the most powerful concerts I have ever experienced.
Thank you sir! I guess Zappa was dealing with how to articulate his envy without sounding envious. And Mclaughlin did not just play scales... he was such a sophisticated, articulate and expressive player.
I also caught one of those Shakti shows this summer it was undoubtedly one of the most amazing performances of my life. Unreal. And that most recent Shakti album is incredible.
@@jjmatashi I don't think Zappa is underestimating John McLaughlin. In fact, Zappa admitted several times his limitations as a guitar player. I think it's just that Zappa was not surprised by John McLaughlin's music, which is only a matter of musical taste.
@@ramonbermejo4525 To characterize any of McLaughlin's playing -- with, for instance, the Mahavishnu Orchestra -- as "unsurprising" is, at best, absurd and, at worst, dishonest. When "Birds of Fire" was released, there was nothing to compare with it. I owned all of the Mothers of Invention albums up to and including "Uncle Meat" and Zappa's "Lumpy Gravy," and I saw him perform with the Mothers in Central Park. The band was tight, as he was smart enough to surround himself with competent musicians, but there was nothing surprising or even particularly distinctive in Zappa's own guitar playing.
I don’t think the guy in the audience understood what John McLaughlin was doing. He’s one of the most innovative guitarists of all time. The fact that he plays lightning fast is irrelevant.
I know, he was fusing Indian with jazz and rock with odd time signatures. He was studying vina at the time as well. It was also about interplay or interacting with other musicians in a trinity of sounds
@@bb1111116 I know, and this is the same dude sitting on the carpet with three Indian musicians. Just understand the history of Britain and India, and John an Englishman humbling himself to learn & play with them. His humanity is incredible. Shakti was a total 360 right after Mahavishnu.
John McL gave a guitar seminar w/music faculty at UC Berkeley in this era. John ended up giving a talk on how to translate bewtween Indian ragas and Western classical harmony by reference to the book "20th Century Harmony". As a dumb guitar player, I couldn't follow what he was saying, until I studied theory and piano years later. So this commentator is off base.@@flame-sky7148
I think Zappa was corralled into an answer really. And he wasn't really agreeing with the slow brained creature who's perception of realit, probably couldn't keep up with either what either McLaughlin or Zappa was doing. The thing about the spirituality really smacks of that generation, that was being obediently corralled into tearing down European Civilisation, for no good reason, through mediums like Rock Music. Or at least the perceptions and labels thrown on top of that musical explosion which occurred at that time, thanks to new technologies which were available to our musical adepts.
I think zappa was right personally and I definitely know enough about music theory to understand both of them. Frank was SELF TAUGHT, john was a school boy.
Speed is just another tool in the toolbox, the same as vibrato, bending notes in tune, Flight of the Bumblebee can't be played slowly. Zappa had Steve Vai in his band so he obviously appreciated the ability to play fast when his music called for it.
@@bofad6074 I don't give damn what Fripp said. The reason I say Miles is because you can hear that the 5 albums playing with Miles had definitely effected his style. We know Miles and Coltrane played together. I have no knowledge of Coltrane ever playing with McLaughlin.
@@AMAR-ym7sz I just think fast and intricate is more coltrane then Miles thats all, both are rather valid comparisons. Sorry if that ruffled your feathers but leave my boy Robert alone! LOL
Frank Zappa was an exceptional man, of the highest order intellect. A review of McLaughlin, his musical career, and where he took his music, would lead me to believe someone stating that he simply moved his fingers fast did not comprehend the music he was listening to or the artist John McLaughlin.
@@monoped8437 LOL "Frenzied"? Guess you hate the Black Page then! And a bunch of Frank's other stuff Frank was a prolific composer (and comedian), but only an average+ guitarist, so probably he understandably felt a little intimidated by John, particularly during those Mahavishnu Orchestra years.. He apparently recognized it, because he went out and hired Vai to play lead. I mean, it's not even possible to envision Frank trading 4's (or 16's) with Paco, or trying to play breakneck odd times with hindustanis like Shakti Ruth Underwood was with him the first time they heard Mahavishnu Orchestra. She tells the story of how they walked in on their soundcheck, and said Frank was "visibly shaken" by what he heard and saw. Can't really blame him
How about that it was John who picked up L. Shankar and put him on the map? Then Frank wanted him it seems….if you want fast scales then practice. There are literally zero musicians that only play fast scales.
Frank was absolutely blown away by The Mahavishnu Orchestra, so let’s keep some perspective here. And indeed, their influence can be heard on certain Zappa albums. Zomby Woof, anyone?
That's a fact. According to his own musicians he used to refer to Mahavishnu Orchestra frequently - although mostly about velocity and playing lots of notes. Ruth Underwood said he hired Chester Thompson looking for a more powerful sound after having been exposed to Billy Cobham's playing. It's obvious he was checking them with precise attention.
@@rudytormento9753 I know zappa very well actually. Zappa always said that he didn’t listen to anything other than classical music and his old blues records.
@@blur5725 I understand you're making a confusion when it comes to listening to music - especially in those times. FZ - like most of the serious cats actually - would deal with the musicians and the music on a sociological basis. Notice that, in the debate he immediately identified the band Slade and I really don't think it was one of his favorite bands. You can also tell by the the diversity of the musicians he produced. Music was the number one means of popular expression back then and FZ used it in its full capacity. It has nothing to do with listening for sole appreciation like most of us do... Hence his serious checking of Mahavishnu Orchestra among others😉
Frank was a high level intellectual. He taught himself to read, write and orchestrate his ideas . He may never get the status as some but his output , originality and commitment to learn and grow , is unique.
Oh Frank was very loved..don't worry about that...We will love Frank and his music as long as we live to enjoy.There are some fantastic live sets .such a treat!!
Anyone can read, write or orchestrate musical ideas. It’s not difficult, I can. It doesn’t mean the ideas are any good or I’m an intellectual at any level. This is basically what he’s saying in the video, it’s about ideas not expertise or accrued technical capabilities.
I love Frank, but anyone who thinks he was a musical genius should be strapped down and forced to listen to nothing but FZ for a few hours. And I freaking hate how easily he slips into critiques of musicians not around to defend themselves. As for John M, does anyone think Frank could hold their own when playing with AL di Meola and Paco de Lucia, as John did when he toured with them?
So, why did Zappa (seemingly) use mostly or all well educated, super high level musicians to perform his music? Without even realizing, he contradicts his own statement just by that point alone. Since he was so confident, perhaps he should have used more mediocre players to demonstrate his arrogance and confidence.@@claymor8241
McLaughlin has technicality but his beauty is his taste on the instrument and reaching the inner soul. His guitar playing moves me and his tone has always been organic. Timeless.
Frank zappa would probably agree with you if he was still alive. He never saw himself as a guitarist he saw himself as a composer who played guitar and as far as composition goes, he's definitely in a league of his own
Besides his impressive skills, John McLaughlin is an amazing creative musician. I saw him live, many years ago (in the '80s), and I still remember how impressed I was by his guitar performance. I was watching him and listening to him, and my jaw was literally dropping, not just because of his technique, but mainly, because of his richly creative musical ideas. It was a fascinating concert (above and beyond "surprising"). Of course, I love John McLaughlin's studio albums; watching him live was even more impressive. Frank Zappa was a great musician, John McLaughlin is also a great musician. I have no intention to rank them (who's the better between them?). It's not needed; enjoying their music and recognizing their greatness is all that's needed.
We do often have a pointless obsession with trying to objectively rank subjective things. Which guitarist - McLaughlin or Zappa - could play the most scales the fastest can be measured, regardless of the usefulness of such a measurement. But what they wrote and played is, obviously, up to the preferences of the listener and purely subjective.
@@sledzeppelin Есть бесспорные гении, есть гении спорные, есть неплохие профессиональные исполнители, а есть чьи-то кумиры - любимцы фанатических групп. К первым относятся Zappa и Hammer, ко вторым - Goodman и Cobham, к третьим и четвёртым - John McLaughlin и тысячи, тысячи гитаристов, не слабее исполнительским уровнем. Бесспорные гитаристы-гении это Steve Hackett, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, Sylvain Luc, сам Frank Zappa и ещё десятка два, известных мне. Поверьте, это не моя вкусовщина. Хороший гитарист должен уметь в первую очередь сочинять свою собственную музыку, достойную Jan Hammer ;-)
Anyone that has never been surprised by john McLaughlin’s musical adventures, innovations, and accomplishments is probably not aware of how many times he has shifted gears during his career. From Georgie fame to zakir Hussein to miles to paco to Santana, Egberto gismonti, jack bruce, James Taylor, sting… the list is endless… Man I begin to quiver when I ponder it. I’m quiverin’ so hard
@@MrJadePinwheel I love Zappa's music and playing, but he wouldn't make it one bar on "Friday night in San Fransisco". Both technical and harmonically.
@@blackarrow9072fair, but he only knew John from live Mahavishnu Orchestra shows, and this was very early days of Mahavishnu, and Frank had barely started his solo career yet.. Point being, this was long before those shows, or Shakti, or any of the various other incredible things John did. I just think people need to bear that context in mind before they start getting too offended for John’s sake. (And anyway, Zappa never denied John being an incredible player.)
I saw that tour in Indianapolis. Mahavishnu was amazing and Zappa got booed. Apparently Zappa replaced Mahavishnu on that tour at a certain point. Zappa only had a trio with Sugar Cane Harris on violin (I forget who the drummer was). I'm a Zappa fan and I thought they sucked. I was very disappointed.
I saw the same bill at the Philadelphia Spectrum, I can't remember the date. I do remember thinking that I could have seen either one of them alone and felt that I got my money's worth.
@@juzek1958cool info! Jim Gordon or Ralph Humphrey on drums? That's pretty crazy that Sugarcane Harris was there. I thought Jean Luc Ponty was in the band at that time?
@@zirconencrustedtweezers Sugar Cane wasn't with Frank long, he had sobriety issues, but it was said he once showed up to gig pretty out of it , was using a bow on his violin with no string, and you couldn't even tell it had no string.
Zappa’s band mates have stated (as have other bands such as YES) that seeing Mahavishnu Orchestra live was revelatory for them and you can see that reflected in their writing. Albums like Close to the Edge clearly show the influence of Mahavishnu, who had opened some shows for Yes the year before.
@@TheKitchenerLeslie in interviews, the ones who appeal to the Internet fandom’s attention (like Ruth or Ralph Humpreys) but of course, Zappa’s retinue of band members lasts two or more decades, so only those in the window when the Zappa band actually played shows with Mahavishnu could legitimately have made that comment. I was friends in Seattle with Jeff Simmons who was clearly from the soul blues side of the Zappa musicians and he was gone before Mahavishnu appeared, so he would not have mentioned it.
Art is not a contest and critics are a dime a dozen there is no greatest of all time it is what it is let people like what they want it won't hurt you to be understanding. Peace
Been listening to John Mclaughlin & the Mahavishnu Orchestra since `Inner Mounting Flame` was released in 1971.Never felt as if he was preaching in any sense, just great rock/jazz fusion.
Frank never says anywhere her that John's playing is just moving fast and playing scales. He answers as to what pleases him in general about hearing guitar playing. Not a bad word about John here.
Not a bad word, or a good word either. His answers are entirely general, and reasonable as such. It rather sounds like he wasn't familiar McLaughlin yet.
Here is John McLaughlin 'returning the favor' to Frank (from Zappa's Wiki page): "Zappa's guitar style was not without its critics. English guitarist and bandleader John McLaughlin, whose band Mahavishnu Orchestra toured with the Mothers of Invention in 1973, opined that Zappa was "very interesting as a human being and a very interesting composer" and that he "was a very good musician but he was a dictator in his band," and that he "was taking very long guitar solos [when performing live]-10-15 minute guitar solos and really he should have taken two or three minute guitar solos, because they were a little bit boring." Meanwhile, Jeff Beck and Pat Matheny said JM was the best guitarist alive, and many other great guitarists cite JM as an important inspiration: McLaughlin has been cited as a major influence on many 1970s and 1980s guitarists, including prominent players such as Steve Morse,[22] Eric Johnson,[23] Mike Stern,[24] Al Di Meola,[25] Shawn Lane,[26] Scott Henderson,[27] and Trevor Rabin of Yes.[28] Other players who acknowledge his influence include Omar Rodríguez-López of The Mars Volta,[29] Paul Masvidal of Cynic,[30] and Ben Weinman of The Dillinger Escape Plan.[31] According to Pat Metheny, McLaughlin has changed the evolution of the guitar during several of his periods of playing.[32] McLaughlin is considered a major influence on composers in the fusion genre. In an interview with Downbeat, Chick Corea remarked that "what John McLaughlin did with the electric guitar set the world on its ear. No one ever heard an electric guitar played like that before, and it certainly inspired me. John's band, more than my experience with Miles, led me to want to turn the volume up and write music that was more dramatic and made your hair stand on end."
I have listened to many hundreds of Frank's solos, and I have not ever found anything at all boring - quite the opposite. But maybe thats because I'm a musician.
@@alanhaynes418 I have only recently heard any extended soloes from FZ. I like them a lot and found them surprising (since I mostly heard his studio work and never heard him jam like that). But I found at least some of them going on and on on one chord, without changes or dynamic variation, so, after a while, a bit of a soporific drone that lacked some interest (even though it was fairly amazing anyway). I think that's what JM referred to.
Frank was speaking in a broad sense. I believe he included John in that 'surprise' category seeing as he had played several times with Mahavishnu Orchestra and had repeatedly been on record admiring John's playing in Frank's stoic fashion.
This is from during one of Frank's happy periods, he always alternated between a happy "serious musician" and a deadly sarcastic ring master during his career.
McLaughlin is something mystically meditatively transcendental in the music of the 20th and 21st centuries! India and his Guru really breathed into him the energy of the evolutionary creative cosmic principle and he successfully implements it, delighting his listeners! this is my favorite musician of all!!! And in my opinion, there is no one more interesting, steeper, deeper and truly broader than his capabilities and there is unlikely to be anyone! he's the only one! and indeed, it’s unlikely that just anyone would become Miles’ guitarist. Zappa certainly wouldn't! Miles was very picky, demanding and a perfectionist.
A point that people often miss about virtuosity is that highly developed technique itself often imparts a very attractive sound to what might be quite simple ideas. So the application of technique per se has its own musical value in that sense. A very fast and accurate pentatonic passage, powerfully picked, with metronomic timing, for example, can have musical impact that it wouldn’t have if it was done with bluesy pull-offs and so on. Then again, on the other hand, imagine a 2-3 hour rock gig with someone insisting on strictly accurate alternate picking, involving economy of movement and metronomic time. It wouldn’t work in that context, the more musical player in that case might be the one who varies his attack, addresses each note on an ad hoc basis, and naturally plays with shifting time within phrases - that’s what shredders nowadays call sloppy but also what most non-playing listeners, free from ego-driven constraints, seem to prefer.
The thing that Zappa is shortsighted at here is that this is 1973, so up to that present date, John Mclaughlin had already released 'My Goals Beyond" an all acoustic east/west album in 1971. Also, was he playing as fast as he could on Miles Davis, In A Silent Way and Bitches Brew in 1969 or 1970? No, so when considering the Mahavishnu Orchestra people will look at Mclaughlin's fast playing, but the essence of Mclaughlin is the interplay with the other players like Cobham and Hammer. It was a group effort. That interactive play continued with Shakti. It's shortsighted when you don't have all the facts and the previous albums up to that point. I love Zappa but I think this was his only impression of him since they toured together in 1973.
I bought the Mahavishnu scores, and I was very surprised to see that Open Country Joy was mostly improvised. "Birds of fire" will never get old. I can understand some people don't like his music, but JML had some influence on a lot of younger musicians. All the great jazz musicians of the late 20th century came from the Miles Davis' bands. Except Pat Metheny, who developed his own universe. Another guitar player who doesn't just move his fingers fast.
Yea, Allan Holdsworth also created his own universe of playing. I was totally impressed by the compositional skills and the complexity of Zappa. But if we are talking about guitar virtuosity. Yea I mean Metheny, Holdsworth, Mclaughlin, Lane. And these guys can compose and play fast and slow with great ballads even acoustically.
I totally agree with FZ, I never felt any emotion from Maclaughlin, or Malmsteen or those guitar slingers, no need for tons of notes to touch people, one note is enough.. Santana, Hendrix or Satriani have SOUL, they make that guitar SING ! That's the most important ,
I saw Frank Zappa 8 ~ 9 times mostly at the Capitol theater in Passaic, NJ around Halloween. I also saw Frank in NYC shows. Zappa always had a great band, very tight. I always got great seats because back then people thought he was "weird". The only "clunker" Zappa performance I saw was the "Sleep dirt" tour. Frank walked out alone with just an acoustic guitar, sat on a chair said nothing and started playing guitar. As you can imagine the crowd started yelling out song titles "Dinah moe hum" etc. while he was playing. Frank played for maybe 40 minutes got up walked off stage and that was it. I also saw John McLaughlin's Birds of Fire tour at the Capitol theater. I recall his band came out and they all sat in front of the stage in crossed legged yoga positions and meditated for like 5 minutes. As you can imagine, the crowd got quite restless after a minute or two and got really vocal as the band just sat there. After a few minutes John got up, they all went to their instruments and all hell broke loose musically. Billy Cobham was incredible on the drums he blew me away and really drew my attention away from McLaughlin's guitar playing. I have wonderful memories of that show and all of the Frank Zappa shows I saw.
It’s 2023 and I’m 46. Im a massive Zappa fan and a big McLaughlin fan. I’ve listened to both since I was a teenager. At this time, Zappa is still the more interesting guitar player and musician. Maybe in the future I’ll feel differently, maybe I won’t.
Frank went on to say that Allan Holdsworth was his favorite guitarist for the very reason he mentioned in the beginning. He's not just running scales and what he's doing is interesting. When Frank Zappa says what you're doing is interesting, take note. I can't believe that his recognition of Allan Holdsworth doesn't get enough credit but there you go.
Anyone who says Mclaughlin is just running scales probable doesn't understand what he's doing. To me he and Holdsworth were the cream of the crop in the last century.
I am a lifelong fan of both guitar players. I don't think Frank was being unkind to John. He was just stating his opinion. But y'all need to be reasonable and look at the timeline. This was 1973. Shakti was just released. The flamenco trio, the new england digital synth, the ring modulator in Visions of Emerald Beyond, so much that John went on to do was still years, if note decades away.
Hey Y'all, Zappa doesn't speak of John McLaughlin, somebody else brings him up as an example and then Frank talks about the athletism of musicianship and that it has its own value whilst what he prefers is the much harder task to "surprise HIM out of his chair", the only one in this video who talks about McLaughlin is a young guy 1,25 min into the video. Frank Zappa replies NOT obout John.
You're absolutely right. I had to do quite a bit of scrolling down to find someone who understood this. The interviewer merely asked about guitarists who can play quickly, and gave McLaughlin as an example. Zappa responded to the actual question, not the example. It's unfortunate that only one person before me gave your comment a thumbs-up.
Just to somewhat, settle the above discussion. Simply seek out Ruth Underwood's comments on the impact The Mahavishnu Orchestra had on Zappa.. She, unlike any of us, was there to bear witness. She says that Zappa came under the spell of what the group were doing from the very first night when Mahavishnu opened for Zappa. She says she knew that the experience would lead to a change in direction, personnel and the energy that his group then could not convey. So for all the public comments he made against other musicians, he kept his real feelings private.. In fact, Zappa was at the earliest concerts of The Tony Williams Lifetime back in 1969 when John Mclaughlin first arrived in New York.. because Ruth was at that concert with her brother having attended the Garrick Theatre extended series.. and her brother introduced Zappa to Ruth..
@@slimturnpike Thanks for the acknowledgement.. but all credit to Ruth Underwood and others who, decades later, still remain the best sources from the inside; rather than the usual keyboard know-nothings, or to paraphrase Zappa, the failed dancers stumbling off (unfinished or shelled) buildings..
John M. was and is way more than a rock player who plays fast, ask Miles! A great innovator just like Frank. He came from flamenco then John Coltrane and maybe at that time the concept would be to carry that into a rock sound. Regardless, "The Inner Mounting Flame" was a true game changer album. A lot more than rock it was. And John M. is a master composer and music theorist. "Dance of the Maya" is a great example and this take on a blues shuffle and it inspired Miles. In fact John was a sideman with him and Miles told him it was time for him to lead his own band. Totally respect Frank too.
saw John Mclaughlin do the Mahavishnu Set few years ago he is killer also saw the shatki 50th (Amazing) Zappa was an incredible player and soloist and creator also. No need to compare as they both have shaped music history forever!!!
Its 73 folks im sure Zappa got mesmerized by John later on, as he left the BoF period, and headed into Shakti , with excursion back with Billy From time to time.
John McLaughlin was never one to just "make his fingers move fast" " just play scales up and down the neck" McLaughlin plays with more skill, intensity, sensitivity and knowledge than any guitar player I've seen live and sure surprised a lot of people with the amazing riffs. I've seen Zappa live too, when he had Napoleon Murphy Brock and Terry Bozio on drums. Great band, but truthfully, I though Zappa's guitar playing was boring. Maybe caught him on a bad night....
Obviously, you haven't listened to Allan Holdsworth, the GOAT (technically, musically, and compositionally) for any serious guitar player that has ever listened to him; or Matteo Mancuso, the 27-year-old Sicilian Sensation, whom every major guitarist in the world is praising to high heaven as approaching perfection in any style he plays. John is good, but he was also able to be unnervingly mediocre at times throughout his career. Let's drop idolatry and focus on musical reality.
@@jimdep6542 Your statement is an example of false equivalence and intellectual laziness. No, not all opinions are equally valid. Listeners like myself, with several years of music education, several years of playing in a band, a 25-year music radio host career in a major metro market, and both extensive programing and listening experience ranging from medieval motets to jazz-rock is certainly in a better position to rank musicians more objectively than an amateur listener. Let me repeat (and I'll type slowly): most major jazz-rock and prog-rock guitarists agree with me that Holdsworth remains the GOAT. McLaughlin's output, while worth listening, is uneven and sometimes painfully so. As far as idolizing "god", I find that hard to do with an imaginary supernatural entity that is supposed to be omniscient, all-powerful, all-merciful, and supremely just but has killed off billions of humans and other living beings as a result of natural disasters and terrible diseases. The Supreme Sadist would be a much better and more accurate designation for your idol.
@@deanronson6331 Life on earth is temporary. Everybody dies while belief and faith in Christ can give you eternity in God's Kingdom. Sorry to get you triggered. You know nothing of my professional career musical experience and your opinion is no more valid than mine. God bless.
@@billd9667 A pretty tune although I'm not sure why the need to put the jam in the middle. Thanks. It's me. I've tried, but other than Jack Johnson and the album with Santana, I just don't hear McClaughlin.
If you listen to the last part of "The Ocean is the Ultimate Solution" , Frank does a very McLaughlin-esque rendition of a solo on his more normally tuned guitar, and that is one of my favorite Zappa tunes of all time. Frank covered MANY different genre's of music, which you cannot say that John did.
It is worth watching a video on UA-cam where Gail Underwood describes Zappa's band touring with Mahavishnu. She mentions being caught in her tracks watching them rehearse before a joint gig and then realising that Frank was stood next to her in silence. Zappa often made caustic comments about McLaughlin but that's probably because there was someone who had a similar level of charisma but with a staggering virtuosity (and that is the correct word to describe McLaughlin) on the instrument and could express it musically without coming over as clever for the sake of it. Or deliberately controversial or obtuse.
Calm down...zappa was caught off guard by the question ,like the earlier comment he wasn't following Mclaughlin. Anyway, zappa is so much more than a guitarist, and so is Mclaughlin
I don't believe that Zappa was caught off guard by the question. He was given a question about "virtuoso" guitarists who can play quickly, and was given McLaughlin as an example. He responded to the question without referencing the example.
To be fair, Zappa was answering the specific question wherein he was asked about players who move quickly on the fret board. I don't think he was dissing McLaughlin when he answered. I believe he was talking about a certain kind of player in general.
Mahavishnu ticks the FZ box 1 and box 2. I regard Inner Mounting Flame as astonishing as hearing Are you Experienced ( Jimi Hendrix) and to a lesser extent Elvis Presley for the first time. Frank's guitar playing underwent a dramatic shift after exposure to the Doncaster legend.
John plays in interesting and challenging time signatures and modes. So does FZ. I could see how the Mahavishnu orchestra might get ur goat, both are great
I once saw John live. I round it too involved for my taste. I think Zappa was being reserved here. I think he too like me,I humbly suggest though, found something too exerted. On that gig I found John's playing one hundred miles per hour from start to finish. The reasons this question even arrises is because of this feature. For example Allan Holdsworth ,who equally played busily , wasn't a point of inquiry? The best way to understand this discussion is whether you love and enjoy John's playing or not. I love his early work but not later. You might disagree. Zappa here though was clearly evasive. If he loved it then he would have said so. Just his opinion though. Trust your own and not others, I saw John with Vinnie coliauta and my least fave thing was John that gig. Take that with a pinch of salt. Just know what you like and what moves you
Hmm. I had a different take on the Five Peace Band. I thought Vinnie simply wasn't listening to the melody line as much as he was just playing a solo all over the place. I am a die hard McLaughlin fan, and I loved everything he's done until the Trio he had with Trilok Gurtu. After that, JM kind of lost me. I still listen to it and some of it is sinking in. But I just prefer his playing and his tone, melodies and compositions from the Trio with Trilok and earlier. And of course, anything he does with Shakti and other incarnations. But his best guitar with Shakti is of course, the Shakti guitar, I don't know why he uses an Electric at all. I know his Shakti guitar got trashed when he loaned it out, but he did manage to get a replacement, I wish he'd use it. Such a beautiful instrument. Especially his bending using the scalloped fingerboard. Shakti with an Electric guitar just doesn't sound right since the other instruments are acoustic. John and Vinnie? I didn't care for it at all. I don't think Vinnie is suited for fusion music. He's got the chops, but his approach is just not something I care for. There is nothing I actually wanted to sit down and listen to over and over again or even learn how to play. I sat down and compared Vinnie and Ranjit playing the same song and I preferred Ranjit's playing over Vinnie. The main reason was Ranjit just breathed better and was more relaxed. I don't hear as much musicality from Vinnie as he seems to wander in his own little world and it doesn't include playing WITH the rest of the band, but rather separate. As far as which drummers I prefer playing with McLaughlin? Billy during the MO days. Narada, Tony Smith, Trilok Gurtu. So far, those are the best players that JM has ever played with that I enjoy. The rest of them simply don't float my boat in terms of meshing with McLaughlin. Allan Holdsworth? I only liked his playing/style/sound with Tony Williams for the two albums he did. I bought many Allan Holdsworth albums since he left the TWL, and none of them really interested me at all. I know Allan has die hard fans and all, but to be quite honest, none of it did a thing for me. It wasn't enjoyable to listen to, it didn't blow me away at all. As far as Chick Corea, I don't care for his synth playing. He has a tin ear when it comes to picking patches and he definitely doesn't know what he's doing with a Pitch wheel. I prefer Chick's piano and Rhodes playing. I've been that way for many years since RTF days. I much prefer Joe Zawinul, Jan Hammer and George Duke for synth players.
I read a qoute by Zappa years ago that went something to the effect that he'd rather listen to a kid in his garage strumming two chords on an out of tune guitar if he really means it than an accomplished musician just going through the motions.
Mc Laughlin is institution, but he reached his best in his life playing with Paco de Lucia who is, then again, concidered by many important figures in guitar and jazz world as the best gitar player of all time
The Mothers and the Mahavishnu O toured together in 1973 and where the latter would open for Zappa. Zappa would watch them and was impressed and influenced by McLaughlin. Theres a documentary that explores their influences upon one another on UA-cam.
Frank was the 1st one on the scene as well as the first to do and invent many other things in music,some of them if not all of franks works were works of a true musical genius!! Let's talk Frank shall we...anyone? Anyone??😮😮😮😮😮😊
I've been playing since I was 13, and now I'm 68. I have been proficient on many instruments over the decades, from Double Bass to Soprano Sax. I played Bebop and Hard Bop for 15 years in various bands. In my opinion, Frank is BY FAR the greatest guitarist that has ever existed. The man was a genius - and I almost NEVER call anyone that!
There's video on YT, where members in Frank's band (Ruth Underwood and maybe Ralph Humphreys?) at the time describe them going with Frank into a Mahavishnu soundcheck and hearing them for the first time. They all describe him to appear to have been "visibly shaken". Chester Thompson also talked about it, saying he was brought into the group specifically because of Cobham's sound in MO Frank was a VG guitarist, but nowhere close to the same league as McLaughlin. And Frank, while a great and prolific composer, did not come anywhere close to breaking the ground that McLaughlin did. He practically started "World Music" with Shakti, fused with Flamenco, brought odd, eastern time signatures into rock and jazz.
One of the really great Mystros of the 70s was Robert fripp from King Crimson and his fripptronics. Such a technical wizard. Then you get bill Bruford on drums and John wetton on bass wohoho watch out. It's easily one of the best rhythm sections you'll ever hear. Maybe besides patrick o'hearn and terry bozzio. Frank had the most incredible feel. That's what I love about him. I enjoy the hell out of Steve howe Alex lifeson Alan Holdsworth Al di meola John Scofield Larry Coryell Steve Hillage(ace) and McLaughlin. These guys are absolute professors of their craft. I still think Frank had better feel than any of them. His solos are absolutely legendary, especially around 75 to 82 If I had a picky year, it would be 1980 he was on fire on that beautiful fire burst les paul. And you can't forget Tony Iommi from Black Sabbath. He was an absolute Master as well and he had to Re learn his craft all over again because of an accident, he had where he lost part of his fingers. But Frank doesn't get enough credit for his guitar virtuoso. Incredibly underrated, At this point in my life, I don't think there's a better guitarist He will surprise you every time.. no one has more of an influence on me then FZ.
The interviewer asked Zappa if he was impressed with Mclauglins finger speed on the guitar and Zappa gave an honest answer to that specific question, the question was not about Mclauglins overall music ability.
But all this about John Mclaughlin is missing the point, he can play fast, as Zappa says, because he practices his scales. He played fast with Bond, Bruce and Baker in the early 60's. He played fast with Mahavishnu Orchestra and played fast on Love Devotion Surrender with. Carlos Santana. He can still play fast today at 80 something. But Miles chose him and Dave Holland because they were, first and foremost, musicians. There's no speed on 'In a silent way' just precision and accuracy - note perfect for Miles. One of the most influential recordings of the period.
Passion, Grace, and Fire is one of my greatest albums of all time ever...funnily enough though the only people I've heard praise John McLaughlin are his fans lol. This isn't the first interview I've heard with someone in the music business who's lukewarm to John McLaughlin hahaha. Sandy Pearlman told me that McLaughlin cut the best solo from Between Nothingness and Eternity just to spite the musician who played the solo. Pearlman was still bitter about that like 40 years later lol.
No one ever says this about Flight of the Bumblebee, Coltrane, Mozart, Rachmaninoff or Art Tatum do they? Or Gypsy Jazz and Flamenco It's just the sensitivities of their "less is more guitar hero" are threatened and they by extension feel threatened and equate technique with bad.
Lots of folks do not like jazz fusion or instrumental. They will look for something negative to say about it when the topic popsup. They love Jimmy Hendriks which is actually quite similar BUT HE SINGS THAT MAKES ALL GOOD..
One doesn't become guitarist for Miles Davis by being conventional, unsurprising, and just having the technical ability to move his fingers really fast. At 80 years old, McLaughlin literally just finished his last tour a few days ago, and was just in the US reunited with Shakti, and still has incredible command of the guitar. Fluidity, speed, tone, and note choice all still incredible. I still vividly recall many looks of awe and surprise on the face of Jimmy Herring as he and McLaughlin traded licks on Mahavishnu material on their double bill tour in 2017, still one of the greatest nights of music in my life.
I was blessed to attend Shakti's two concerts in London. I've seen him in various shows over the last 20 years but will forever be grateful to have seen Shakti my favorite of John's incarnations. Two of the most powerful concerts I have ever experienced.
Thank you sir! I guess Zappa was dealing with how to articulate his envy without sounding envious. And Mclaughlin did not just play scales... he was such a sophisticated, articulate and expressive player.
I also caught one of those Shakti shows this summer it was undoubtedly one of the most amazing performances of my life. Unreal. And that most recent Shakti album is incredible.
@@jjmatashi I don't think Zappa is underestimating John McLaughlin. In fact, Zappa admitted several times his limitations as a guitar player. I think it's just that Zappa was not surprised by John McLaughlin's music, which is only a matter of musical taste.
@@ramonbermejo4525 To characterize any of McLaughlin's playing -- with, for instance, the Mahavishnu Orchestra -- as "unsurprising" is, at best, absurd and, at worst, dishonest. When "Birds of Fire" was released, there was nothing to compare with it. I owned all of the Mothers of Invention albums up to and including "Uncle Meat" and Zappa's "Lumpy Gravy," and I saw him perform with the Mothers in Central Park. The band was tight, as he was smart enough to surround himself with competent musicians, but there was nothing surprising or even particularly distinctive in Zappa's own guitar playing.
I don’t think the guy in the audience understood what John McLaughlin was doing. He’s one of the most innovative guitarists of all time. The fact that he plays lightning fast is irrelevant.
I know, he was fusing Indian with jazz and rock with odd time signatures. He was studying vina at the time as well. It was also about interplay or interacting with other musicians in a trinity of sounds
@@flame-sky7148 And still going!
@@flame-sky7148; yes, John was doing all of that and added to his fusion list was flamenco (Paco de Lucía).
@@bb1111116 I know, and this is the same dude sitting on the carpet with three Indian musicians. Just understand the history of Britain and India, and John an Englishman humbling himself to learn & play with them. His humanity is incredible. Shakti was a total 360 right after Mahavishnu.
John McL gave a guitar seminar w/music faculty at UC Berkeley in this era. John ended up giving a talk on how to translate bewtween Indian ragas and Western classical harmony by reference to the book "20th Century Harmony". As a dumb guitar player, I couldn't follow what he was saying, until I studied theory and piano years later. So this commentator is off base.@@flame-sky7148
Funny to hear McLaughlin get thrown into the category of he just “moves his fingers fast.” He’s always incredibly musical!
Zappa was a die hard Holdsworth Fan boy
I think Zappa was corralled into an answer really. And he wasn't really agreeing with the slow brained creature who's perception of realit, probably couldn't keep up with either what either McLaughlin or Zappa was doing. The thing about the spirituality really smacks of that generation, that was being obediently corralled into tearing down European Civilisation, for no good reason, through mediums like Rock Music. Or at least the perceptions and labels thrown on top of that musical explosion which occurred at that time, thanks to new technologies which were available to our musical adepts.
I think zappa was right personally and I definitely know enough about music theory to understand both of them. Frank was SELF TAUGHT, john was a school boy.
@@Holden_Stuff snore
Speed is just another tool in the toolbox, the same as vibrato, bending notes in tune, Flight of the Bumblebee can't be played slowly. Zappa had Steve Vai in his band so he obviously appreciated the ability to play fast when his music called for it.
John McLaughlin doesn't just play fast or just scales. In his prime, he played intricate and fast. For me, he has been the Miles Davis of guitar.
in an interview with john, fripp called him the john coltrane of guitar which is more accurate imo then Miles
@@bofad6074 I don't give damn what Fripp said. The reason I say Miles is because you can hear that the 5 albums playing with Miles had definitely effected his style.
We know Miles and Coltrane played together. I have no knowledge of Coltrane ever playing with McLaughlin.
@@AMAR-ym7sz I just think fast and intricate is more coltrane then Miles thats all, both are rather valid comparisons. Sorry if that ruffled your feathers but leave my boy Robert alone! LOL
more like the Oscar Peterson of guitar
You don’t give a damn what Fripp says? Interesting.
Frank Zappa was an exceptional man, of the highest order intellect. A review of McLaughlin, his musical career, and where he took his music, would lead me to believe someone stating that he simply moved his fingers fast did not comprehend the music he was listening to or the artist John McLaughlin.
I think Frank understood it, but it was intended as a put-down. He was too proud to compliment McL
@@firstlast4874, "too proud to compliment McL"...? frank? oh please. i never cared for the frenzied fretboard work either.
@@monoped8437 LOL "Frenzied"? Guess you hate the Black Page then! And a bunch of Frank's other stuff
Frank was a prolific composer (and comedian), but only an average+ guitarist, so probably he understandably felt a little intimidated by John, particularly during those Mahavishnu Orchestra years.. He apparently recognized it, because he went out and hired Vai to play lead. I mean, it's not even possible to envision Frank trading 4's (or 16's) with Paco, or trying to play breakneck odd times with hindustanis like Shakti
Ruth Underwood was with him the first time they heard Mahavishnu Orchestra. She tells the story of how they walked in on their soundcheck, and said Frank was "visibly shaken" by what he heard and saw. Can't really blame him
Zappa was a very interesting guitar player. But it’s worth remembering he couldn’t solo over jazz changes.
How about that it was John who picked up L. Shankar and put him on the map? Then Frank wanted him it seems….if you want fast scales then practice. There are literally zero musicians that only play fast scales.
Frank was absolutely blown away by The Mahavishnu Orchestra, so let’s keep some perspective here. And indeed, their influence can be heard on certain Zappa albums. Zomby Woof, anyone?
That's a fact. According to his own musicians he used to refer to Mahavishnu Orchestra frequently - although mostly about velocity and playing lots of notes. Ruth Underwood said he hired Chester Thompson looking for a more powerful sound after having been exposed to Billy Cobham's playing. It's obvious he was checking them with precise attention.
@@rudytormento9753 he wasn’t precisely checking them. The mahavishnu toured with zappa in 1972. The mahavishnu were the opening show😄😄
@@blur5725 If you know Frank Zappa you know he was already on their case way before he got to tour with them😉
@@rudytormento9753 I know zappa very well actually. Zappa always said that he didn’t listen to anything other than classical music and his old blues records.
@@blur5725 I understand you're making a confusion when it comes to listening to music - especially in those times. FZ - like most of the serious cats actually - would deal with the musicians and the music on a sociological basis. Notice that, in the debate he immediately identified the band Slade and I really don't think it was one of his favorite bands. You can also tell by the the diversity of the musicians he produced. Music was the number one means of popular expression back then and FZ used it in its full capacity. It has nothing to do with listening for sole appreciation like most of us do... Hence his serious checking of Mahavishnu Orchestra among others😉
Frank was a high level intellectual. He taught himself to read, write and orchestrate his ideas . He may never get the status as some but his output , originality and commitment to learn and grow , is unique.
Oh Frank was very loved..don't worry about that...We will love Frank and his music as long as we live to enjoy.There are some fantastic live sets .such a treat!!
Anyone can read, write or orchestrate musical ideas. It’s not difficult, I can. It doesn’t mean the ideas are any good or I’m an intellectual at any level. This is basically what he’s saying in the video, it’s about ideas not expertise or accrued technical capabilities.
Yeah Frank was just so. very well spoken and very mindful of exactly what he was saying.
I love Frank, but anyone who thinks he was a musical genius should be strapped down and forced to listen to nothing but FZ for a few hours.
And I freaking hate how easily he slips into critiques of musicians not around to defend themselves.
As for John M, does anyone think Frank could hold their own when playing with AL di Meola and Paco de Lucia, as John did when he toured with them?
So, why did Zappa (seemingly) use mostly or all well educated, super high level musicians to perform his music? Without even realizing, he contradicts his own statement just by that point alone. Since he was so confident, perhaps he should have used more mediocre players to demonstrate his arrogance and confidence.@@claymor8241
McLaughlin has technicality but his beauty is his taste on the instrument and reaching the inner soul.
His guitar playing moves me and his tone has always been organic.
Timeless.
His sound got so good after picking up that PRS.
John McLaughlin hits all the changes. As much as I love Zappa, he was not in McLauhglin's league as a guitarist.
I get your point. ;)@@madcyril4135
I agree. As much as I love Zappa and love his guitar playing, he's not in the same league as McLaughlin as a guitarist.
Zappa now where near Mclaughlin.
Frank zappa would probably agree with you if he was still alive. He never saw himself as a guitarist he saw himself as a composer who played guitar and as far as composition goes, he's definitely in a league of his own
also F.Z. plays guitar so fast.
Besides his impressive skills, John McLaughlin is an amazing creative musician. I saw him live, many years ago (in the '80s), and I still remember how impressed I was by his guitar performance. I was watching him and listening to him, and my jaw was literally dropping, not just because of his technique, but mainly, because of his richly creative musical ideas. It was a fascinating concert (above and beyond "surprising"). Of course, I love John McLaughlin's studio albums; watching him live was even more impressive.
Frank Zappa was a great musician, John McLaughlin is also a great musician. I have no intention to rank them (who's the better between them?). It's not needed; enjoying their music and recognizing their greatness is all that's needed.
Extrapolation Grande album
Прицепите к любому посредственному гитаристу команду из Hammer/Cobham)Goodman и вы получите бесконечное множество Inner Mountin Flame & Birds of Fire.
We do often have a pointless obsession with trying to objectively rank subjective things. Which guitarist - McLaughlin or Zappa - could play the most scales the fastest can be measured, regardless of the usefulness of such a measurement. But what they wrote and played is, obviously, up to the preferences of the listener and purely subjective.
@@sledzeppelin Есть бесспорные гении, есть гении спорные, есть неплохие профессиональные исполнители, а есть чьи-то кумиры - любимцы фанатических групп. К первым относятся Zappa и Hammer, ко вторым - Goodman и Cobham, к третьим и четвёртым - John McLaughlin и тысячи, тысячи гитаристов, не слабее исполнительским уровнем. Бесспорные гитаристы-гении это Steve Hackett, Allan Holdsworth, Pat Metheny, Sylvain Luc, сам Frank Zappa и ещё десятка два, известных мне. Поверьте, это не моя вкусовщина. Хороший гитарист должен уметь в первую очередь сочинять свою собственную музыку, достойную Jan Hammer ;-)
For surprise factor, Zappa consistently tops the list. On a side note, Zappa was the most articulate rocker ever.
Articulate is the key word!!
And Ian Anderson.
Robert Fripp is also high on that list.
Fripp is an unique genius as Zappa is!!
Anyone that has never been surprised by john McLaughlin’s musical adventures, innovations, and accomplishments is probably not aware of how many times he has shifted gears during his career. From Georgie fame to zakir Hussein to miles to paco to Santana, Egberto gismonti, jack bruce, James Taylor, sting… the list is endless… Man I begin to quiver when I ponder it. I’m quiverin’ so hard
Frank didn’t keep his ear to every McLaughlin development. His impressions about his playing come from a short tour they did together
@@MrJadePinwheel true
@@MrJadePinwheel I love Zappa's music and playing, but he wouldn't make it one bar on "Friday night in San Fransisco". Both technical and harmonically.
@@blackarrow9072fair, but he only knew John from live Mahavishnu Orchestra shows, and this was very early days of Mahavishnu, and Frank had barely started his solo career yet.. Point being, this was long before those shows, or Shakti, or any of the various other incredible things John did. I just think people need to bear that context in mind before they start getting too offended for John’s sake. (And anyway, Zappa never denied John being an incredible player.)
@@blackarrow9072BALONEY…
I saw the both of them on a double bill in 73.Both were amazing both had killer bands, both had violins in the group.
I saw that tour in Indianapolis. Mahavishnu was amazing and Zappa got booed. Apparently Zappa replaced Mahavishnu on that tour at a certain point. Zappa only had a trio with Sugar Cane Harris on violin (I forget who the drummer was). I'm a Zappa fan and I thought they sucked. I was very disappointed.
I saw the same bill at the Philadelphia Spectrum, I can't remember the date. I do remember thinking that I could have seen either one of them alone and felt that I got my money's worth.
Amazing times . Mahavishnu John was riffing on BIRDS OF FIRE and Frank hit back with DONT EAT THE YELLOW SNOW -
@@juzek1958cool info! Jim Gordon or Ralph Humphrey on drums? That's pretty crazy that Sugarcane Harris was there. I thought Jean Luc Ponty was in the band at that time?
@@zirconencrustedtweezers Sugar Cane wasn't with Frank long, he had sobriety issues, but it was said he once showed up to gig pretty out of it , was using a bow on his violin with no string, and you couldn't even tell it had no string.
Zappa’s band mates have stated (as have other bands such as YES) that seeing Mahavishnu Orchestra live was revelatory for them and you can see that reflected in their writing.
Albums like Close to the Edge clearly show the influence of Mahavishnu, who had opened some shows for Yes the year before.
Bill Bruford was following Billy Cobham's style
@@IzunaSlapas was Phil Collins while we're at it
Zappa has had hundreds of people in his bands. All of them said this?
@@TheKitchenerLeslie in interviews, the ones who appeal to the Internet fandom’s attention (like Ruth or Ralph Humpreys) but of course, Zappa’s retinue of band members lasts two or more decades, so only those in the window when the Zappa band actually played shows with Mahavishnu could legitimately have made that comment.
I was friends in Seattle with Jeff Simmons who was clearly from the soul blues side of the Zappa musicians and he was gone before Mahavishnu appeared, so he would not have mentioned it.
@@t.seank.529 Neat. I had a friend who grew up with Simmons.
Art is not a contest and critics are a dime a dozen there is no greatest of all time it is what it is let people like what they want it won't hurt you to be understanding.
Peace
Been listening to John Mclaughlin & the Mahavishnu Orchestra since `Inner Mounting Flame` was released in 1971.Never felt as if he was preaching in any sense, just great rock/jazz fusion.
Frank never says anywhere her that John's playing is just moving fast and playing scales. He answers as to what pleases him in general about hearing guitar playing. Not a bad word about John here.
Not a bad word, or a good word either. His answers are entirely general, and reasonable as such. It rather sounds like he wasn't familiar McLaughlin yet.
@@GiglioFava yes, I hear it as "this interview is about myself an .my ideas and my music, let's not digress here...". Very focused, as Zappa can be.
My very first concert, 1972, was John opening for Frank, at Maple Leafs Gardens, Toronto.
Both were equally AMAZING!!!
While I admire Frank Zappa's guitar playing, he stands in the shadow of McLaughlin
McLaughlin got soul , feeling And beautiful compositions….he just does it with Perfect Turbo Speed….one of the best to play on planet earth…
No man can write rules into music, expression doesn't have boundaries without being burdened by constraints... Interpretation is unlimited
Sensible words from a great musician 😎👍👍
Here is John McLaughlin 'returning the favor' to Frank (from Zappa's Wiki page):
"Zappa's guitar style was not without its critics. English guitarist and bandleader John McLaughlin, whose band Mahavishnu Orchestra toured with the Mothers of Invention in 1973, opined that Zappa was "very interesting as a human being and a very interesting composer" and that he "was a very good musician but he was a dictator in his band," and that he "was taking very long guitar solos [when performing live]-10-15 minute guitar solos and really he should have taken two or three minute guitar solos, because they were a little bit boring."
Meanwhile, Jeff Beck and Pat Matheny said JM was the best guitarist alive, and many other great guitarists cite JM as an important inspiration:
McLaughlin has been cited as a major influence on many 1970s and 1980s guitarists, including prominent players such as Steve Morse,[22] Eric Johnson,[23] Mike Stern,[24] Al Di Meola,[25] Shawn Lane,[26] Scott Henderson,[27] and Trevor Rabin of Yes.[28] Other players who acknowledge his influence include Omar Rodríguez-López of The Mars Volta,[29] Paul Masvidal of Cynic,[30] and Ben Weinman of The Dillinger Escape Plan.[31] According to Pat Metheny, McLaughlin has changed the evolution of the guitar during several of his periods of playing.[32]
McLaughlin is considered a major influence on composers in the fusion genre. In an interview with Downbeat, Chick Corea remarked that "what John McLaughlin did with the electric guitar set the world on its ear. No one ever heard an electric guitar played like that before, and it certainly inspired me. John's band, more than my experience with Miles, led me to want to turn the volume up and write music that was more dramatic and made your hair stand on end."
I have listened to many hundreds of Frank's solos, and I have not ever found anything at all boring - quite the opposite.
But maybe thats because I'm a musician.
@@alanhaynes418 I have only recently heard any extended soloes from FZ. I like them a lot and found them surprising (since I mostly heard his studio work and never heard him jam like that). But I found at least some of them going on and on on one chord, without changes or dynamic variation, so, after a while, a bit of a soporific drone that lacked some interest (even though it was fairly amazing anyway).
I think that's what JM referred to.
So JM isn't a musician? And who are you again?@@alanhaynes418
John McLaughlin has never been playing scales up and down
Frank was speaking in a broad sense. I believe he included John in that 'surprise' category seeing as he had played several times with Mahavishnu Orchestra and had repeatedly been on record admiring John's playing in Frank's stoic fashion.
This is from during one of Frank's happy periods, he always alternated between a happy "serious musician" and a deadly sarcastic ring master during his career.
John tem tudo , técnica , sensibilidade , ousadia , coragem , versatilidade , domina várias linguagens musicais.
I understand and appreciate both expressions and all them surprise me. Surprise! 🎶 💜
McLaughlin is something mystically meditatively transcendental in the music of the 20th and 21st centuries! India and his Guru really breathed into him the energy of the evolutionary creative cosmic principle and he successfully implements it, delighting his listeners! this is my favorite musician of all!!! And in my opinion, there is no one more interesting, steeper, deeper and truly broader than his capabilities and there is unlikely to be anyone! he's the only one! and indeed, it’s unlikely that just anyone would become Miles’ guitarist. Zappa certainly wouldn't! Miles was very picky, demanding and a perfectionist.
Both are great, John plays with a lot of spirits, Frank sometimes with a Stink Foot:-)
😂
can you rinse it off? Do you suppose?
And Dental Floss.
"...Doe-dee-doe-doe, doe-doe..." 🦶👃🤢🚿
I'm moving to Montana soon...@@Oneness100
Frank's conceptual continuity I think for me, can make me smile when you hear motifs modified in different context
The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.....
Arf she said
A point that people often miss about virtuosity is that highly developed technique itself often imparts a very attractive sound to what might be quite simple ideas. So the application of technique per se has its own musical value in that sense. A very fast and accurate pentatonic passage, powerfully picked, with metronomic timing, for example, can have musical impact that it wouldn’t have if it was done with bluesy pull-offs and so on. Then again, on the other hand, imagine a 2-3 hour rock gig with someone insisting on strictly accurate alternate picking, involving economy of movement and metronomic time. It wouldn’t work in that context, the more musical player in that case might be the one who varies his attack, addresses each note on an ad hoc basis, and naturally plays with shifting time within phrases - that’s what shredders nowadays call sloppy but also what most non-playing listeners, free from ego-driven constraints, seem to prefer.
This.
The thing that Zappa is shortsighted at here is that this is 1973, so up to that present date, John Mclaughlin had already released 'My Goals Beyond" an all acoustic east/west album in 1971. Also, was he playing as fast as he could on Miles Davis, In A Silent Way and Bitches Brew in 1969 or 1970? No, so when considering the Mahavishnu Orchestra people will look at Mclaughlin's fast playing, but the essence of Mclaughlin is the interplay with the other players like Cobham and Hammer. It was a group effort. That interactive play continued with Shakti. It's shortsighted when you don't have all the facts and the previous albums up to that point. I love Zappa but I think this was his only impression of him since they toured together in 1973.
Is this slow enough for you: ua-cam.com/video/pcIaUUPTj5k/v-deo.html
I bought the Mahavishnu scores, and I was very surprised to see that Open Country Joy was mostly improvised.
"Birds of fire" will never get old. I can understand some people don't like his music, but JML had some influence on a lot of younger musicians. All the great jazz musicians of the late 20th century came from the Miles Davis' bands.
Except Pat Metheny, who developed his own universe. Another guitar player who doesn't just move his fingers fast.
Power of love ? I never get tired of Apocalypse. Jean-Luc Ponty is incredible, and Narada is... sympathetic.
Yea, Allan Holdsworth also created his own universe of playing. I was totally impressed by the compositional skills and the complexity of Zappa. But if we are talking about guitar virtuosity. Yea I mean Metheny, Holdsworth, Mclaughlin, Lane. And these guys can compose and play fast and slow with great ballads even acoustically.
@@ofdrumsandchords I know, it's a beauty.
My collection included LP s of both artists .... with an eclectic taste and broad appreciation music comes from everywhere....
Anyone who thinks that's all there is to McLaughlin isn't listening.
I totally agree with FZ, I never felt any emotion from Maclaughlin, or Malmsteen or those guitar slingers, no need for tons of notes to touch people, one note is enough.. Santana, Hendrix or Satriani have SOUL, they make that guitar SING ! That's the most important ,
I saw Frank Zappa 8 ~ 9 times mostly at the Capitol theater in Passaic, NJ around Halloween. I also saw Frank in NYC shows. Zappa always had a great band, very tight. I always got great seats because back then people thought he was "weird". The only "clunker" Zappa performance I saw was the "Sleep dirt" tour. Frank walked out alone with just an acoustic guitar, sat on a chair said nothing and started playing guitar. As you can imagine the crowd started yelling out song titles "Dinah moe hum" etc. while he was playing. Frank played for maybe 40 minutes got up walked off stage and that was it.
I also saw John McLaughlin's Birds of Fire tour at the Capitol theater. I recall his band came out and they all sat in front of the stage in crossed legged yoga positions and meditated for like 5 minutes. As you can imagine, the crowd got quite restless after a minute or two and got really vocal as the band just sat there. After a few minutes John got up, they all went to their instruments and all hell broke loose musically. Billy Cobham was incredible on the drums he blew me away and really drew my attention away from McLaughlin's guitar playing. I have wonderful memories of that show and all of the Frank Zappa shows I saw.
Pretty cool story.
Seeing Cobham back then lol that must of been beyond epiC!!
It’s 2023 and I’m 46. Im a massive Zappa fan and a big McLaughlin fan. I’ve listened to both since I was a teenager. At this time, Zappa is still the more interesting guitar player and musician. Maybe in the future I’ll feel differently, maybe I won’t.
it's always worth hearing what Frank had to say, but when he said this he had never heard Shakti.
Then interestingly produced L. Shankar.
I love both of them, McLaughlin and Zappa, for very different reasons.
Frank wrote compositions John's spiritual outlook gave him a different perspective 🙏
I've seen JM play three times. The surprise would be if he would ever play a melody. Same could be said for another great Al Di Meola
Zappa spoke more than he knew
Frank went on to say that Allan Holdsworth was his favorite guitarist for the very reason he mentioned in the beginning.
He's not just running scales and what he's doing is interesting.
When Frank Zappa says what you're doing is interesting, take note.
I can't believe that his recognition of Allan Holdsworth doesn't get enough credit but there you go.
Anyone who says Mclaughlin is just running scales probable doesn't understand what he's doing. To me he and Holdsworth were the cream of the crop in the last century.
@@jjmatashi Exactly. Mr. Legato and Mr. Stacato, although I have to say most of Allan's compositions were not that memorable
John McLaughlin's "Mediterranean Suite" is a beautiful composition.
Listen to Mahavishnu Orchestra's In My Life on the Inner Worlds album. Not just blazing scales, but deeply moving, emotional virtuosity.
I am a lifelong fan of both guitar players. I don't think Frank was being unkind to John. He was just stating his opinion. But y'all need to be reasonable and look at the timeline. This was 1973. Shakti was just released. The flamenco trio, the new england digital synth, the ring modulator in Visions of Emerald Beyond, so much that John went on to do was still years, if note decades away.
dude, bitches brew alone just puts him on god tier list. nothing particularly fast there either, just really good note choice and melodic mind.
there's more than moving finger fast, you also have to land the finger tips the correct way
Zappa described McLauglin's playing as "gnat notes" in other interviews back then.
Son basicamente diferentes, uno es amable, el otro no se preocupo por eso, pero ambos genios a su manera
I wonder if Zappa liked Erroll Garner? Garner always surprises me.
Seen them both. Multiple times. Frank apparently did not see or hear McLaughlin enough.
Absolutely incorrect !
Interesting, in light of the fact that in that year of 1973 I saw the Mahavishnu Orchestra open up during Zappa's Waka Jawaka tour.
Hey Y'all, Zappa doesn't speak of John McLaughlin, somebody else brings him up as an example and then Frank talks about the athletism of musicianship and that it has its own value whilst what he prefers is the much harder task to "surprise HIM out of his chair", the only one in this video who talks about McLaughlin is a young guy 1,25 min into the video. Frank Zappa replies NOT obout John.
You're absolutely right. I had to do quite a bit of scrolling down to find someone who understood this.
The interviewer merely asked about guitarists who can play quickly, and gave McLaughlin as an example. Zappa responded to the actual question, not the example.
It's unfortunate that only one person before me gave your comment a thumbs-up.
Just to somewhat, settle the above discussion.
Simply seek out Ruth Underwood's comments on the impact
The Mahavishnu Orchestra had on Zappa.. She, unlike any of us, was there to bear witness. She says that Zappa came under the spell of what the group were doing from the very first night when Mahavishnu opened for Zappa. She says she knew that the experience would lead to a change in direction, personnel and the energy that his group then could not convey. So for all the public comments he made against other musicians, he kept his real feelings private.. In fact, Zappa was at the earliest concerts of
The Tony Williams Lifetime back in 1969 when John Mclaughlin first arrived in New York.. because Ruth was at that concert with her brother having attended the Garrick Theatre extended series.. and her brother introduced Zappa to Ruth..
Nice insight thanks
@@slimturnpike
Thanks for the acknowledgement.. but all credit to Ruth Underwood and others who, decades later, still remain the best sources from the inside; rather than the usual keyboard know-nothings, or to paraphrase Zappa, the failed dancers stumbling off (unfinished or shelled) buildings..
There will never be another Frank Zappa that is for sure.
John M. was and is way more than a rock player who plays fast, ask Miles! A great innovator just like Frank. He came from flamenco then John Coltrane and maybe at that time the concept would be to carry that into a rock sound. Regardless, "The Inner Mounting Flame" was a true game changer album. A lot more than rock it was. And John M. is a master composer and music theorist. "Dance of the Maya" is a great example and this take on a blues shuffle and it inspired Miles. In fact John was a sideman with him and Miles told him it was time for him to lead his own band. Totally respect Frank too.
saw John Mclaughlin do the Mahavishnu Set few years ago he is killer also saw the shatki 50th (Amazing) Zappa was an incredible player and soloist and creator also. No need to compare as they both have shaped music history forever!!!
Its 73 folks im sure Zappa got mesmerized by John later on, as he left the BoF period, and headed into Shakti , with excursion back with Billy From time to time.
John McLaughlin was never one to just "make his fingers move fast" " just play scales up and down the neck" McLaughlin plays with more skill, intensity, sensitivity and knowledge than any guitar player I've seen live and sure surprised a lot of people with the amazing riffs. I've seen Zappa live too, when he had Napoleon Murphy Brock and Terry Bozio on drums. Great band, but truthfully, I though Zappa's guitar playing was boring. Maybe caught him on a bad night....
Obviously, you haven't listened to Allan Holdsworth, the GOAT (technically, musically, and compositionally) for any serious guitar player that has ever listened to him; or Matteo Mancuso, the 27-year-old Sicilian Sensation, whom every major guitarist in the world is praising to high heaven as approaching perfection in any style he plays. John is good, but he was also able to be unnervingly mediocre at times throughout his career. Let's drop idolatry and focus on musical reality.
@@deanronson6331 Your opinion is as valid as mine. It's mostly subjective. I don't idolize guitarists, just God.
@@jimdep6542 Your statement is an example of false equivalence and intellectual laziness. No, not all opinions are equally valid. Listeners like myself, with several years of music education, several years of playing in a band, a 25-year music radio host career in a major metro market, and both extensive programing and listening experience ranging from medieval motets to jazz-rock is certainly in a better position to rank musicians more objectively than an amateur listener. Let me repeat (and I'll type slowly): most major jazz-rock and prog-rock guitarists agree with me that Holdsworth remains the GOAT. McLaughlin's output, while worth listening, is uneven and sometimes painfully so. As far as idolizing "god", I find that hard to do with an imaginary supernatural entity that is supposed to be omniscient, all-powerful, all-merciful, and supremely just but has killed off billions of humans and other living beings as a result of natural disasters and terrible diseases. The Supreme Sadist would be a much better and more accurate designation for your idol.
@@deanronson6331 Life on earth is temporary. Everybody dies while belief and faith in Christ can give you eternity in God's Kingdom. Sorry to get you triggered. You know nothing of my professional career musical experience and your opinion is no more valid than mine. God bless.
do you have an opinion of Steve Morse?@@deanronson6331
I've always been more awe struck by McClaughlin's virtuosity than emotionally moved by anything he has played.
Use quick finger movements to rewatch the interview in this long video. 0:35
Listen to Dawn from Inner Mounting Flame, and Song to Joh Pt.2 on Stanley Clarke's Journey to Love, and Django on The Promise, among many others...
@@jjmatashi I'll lend them an ear. Thanks
Also Open Country Joy from Birds of Fire.
@@billd9667 A pretty tune although I'm not sure why the need to put the jam in the middle.
Thanks. It's me. I've tried, but other than Jack Johnson and the album with Santana, I just don't hear McClaughlin.
If you listen to the last part of "The Ocean is the Ultimate Solution" , Frank does a very McLaughlin-esque rendition of a solo on his more normally tuned guitar, and that is one of my favorite Zappa tunes of all time. Frank covered MANY different genre's of music, which you cannot say that John did.
What? Sarcasm?
It is worth watching a video on UA-cam where Gail Underwood describes Zappa's band touring with Mahavishnu. She mentions being caught in her tracks watching them rehearse before a joint gig and then realising that Frank was stood next to her in silence. Zappa often made caustic comments about McLaughlin but that's probably because there was someone who had a similar level of charisma but with a staggering virtuosity (and that is the correct word to describe McLaughlin) on the instrument and could express it musically without coming over as clever for the sake of it. Or deliberately controversial or obtuse.
It is fair.
Great statement from Frank Zappa!
Calm down...zappa was caught off guard by the question ,like the earlier comment he wasn't following Mclaughlin. Anyway, zappa is so much more than a guitarist, and so is Mclaughlin
I don't believe that Zappa was caught off guard by the question.
He was given a question about "virtuoso" guitarists who can play quickly, and was given McLaughlin as an example.
He responded to the question without referencing the example.
To be fair, Zappa was answering the specific question wherein he was asked about players who move quickly on the fret board. I don't think he was dissing McLaughlin when he answered. I believe he was talking about a certain kind of player in general.
Yes. He was asked a question, and was given an example. He responded to the question, not the example.
Albert Lee also plays ultra fast. And no matter how much you practise, 99.99 x 100 will never make it like him.
Frank it ouch. Too advanced for the madding crowd...😎👆
Mahavishnu ticks the FZ box 1 and box 2. I regard Inner Mounting Flame as astonishing as hearing Are you Experienced ( Jimi Hendrix) and to a lesser extent Elvis Presley for the first time. Frank's guitar playing underwent a dramatic shift after exposure to the Doncaster legend.
McLaughlin is ten times the guitarist that Zappa ever was.
McLaughlin is a master!
John plays in interesting and challenging time signatures and modes. So does FZ.
I could see how the
Mahavishnu orchestra might get ur goat,
both are great
I get the feeling that Zappa never listened to McLaughlin's music
Joe Pass just blows me away every time.
I once saw John live. I round it too involved for my taste. I think Zappa was being reserved here. I think he too like me,I humbly suggest though, found something too exerted. On that gig I found John's playing one hundred miles per hour from start to finish. The reasons this question even arrises is because of this feature. For example Allan Holdsworth ,who equally played busily , wasn't a point of inquiry? The best way to understand this discussion is whether you love and enjoy John's playing or not. I love his early work but not later. You might disagree. Zappa here though was clearly evasive. If he loved it then he would have said so. Just his opinion though. Trust your own and not others, I saw John with Vinnie coliauta and my least fave thing was John that gig. Take that with a pinch of salt. Just know what you like and what moves you
Hmm. I had a different take on the Five Peace Band. I thought Vinnie simply wasn't listening to the melody line as much as he was just playing a solo all over the place.
I am a die hard McLaughlin fan, and I loved everything he's done until the Trio he had with Trilok Gurtu. After that, JM kind of lost me. I still listen to it and some of it is sinking in. But I just prefer his playing and his tone, melodies and compositions from the Trio with Trilok and earlier. And of course, anything he does with Shakti and other incarnations. But his best guitar with Shakti is of course, the Shakti guitar, I don't know why he uses an Electric at all. I know his Shakti guitar got trashed when he loaned it out, but he did manage to get a replacement, I wish he'd use it. Such a beautiful instrument. Especially his bending using the scalloped fingerboard. Shakti with an Electric guitar just doesn't sound right since the other instruments are acoustic.
John and Vinnie? I didn't care for it at all. I don't think Vinnie is suited for fusion music. He's got the chops, but his approach is just not something I care for. There is nothing I actually wanted to sit down and listen to over and over again or even learn how to play. I sat down and compared Vinnie and Ranjit playing the same song and I preferred Ranjit's playing over Vinnie. The main reason was Ranjit just breathed better and was more relaxed. I don't hear as much musicality from Vinnie as he seems to wander in his own little world and it doesn't include playing WITH the rest of the band, but rather separate.
As far as which drummers I prefer playing with McLaughlin?
Billy during the MO days. Narada, Tony Smith, Trilok Gurtu. So far, those are the best players that JM has ever played with that I enjoy. The rest of them simply don't float my boat in terms of meshing with McLaughlin.
Allan Holdsworth? I only liked his playing/style/sound with Tony Williams for the two albums he did. I bought many Allan Holdsworth albums since he left the TWL, and none of them really interested me at all. I know Allan has die hard fans and all, but to be quite honest, none of it did a thing for me. It wasn't enjoyable to listen to, it didn't blow me away at all.
As far as Chick Corea, I don't care for his synth playing. He has a tin ear when it comes to picking patches and he definitely doesn't know what he's doing with a Pitch wheel. I prefer Chick's piano and Rhodes playing. I've been that way for many years since RTF days. I much prefer Joe Zawinul, Jan Hammer and George Duke for synth players.
Sure miss Frank Zappa!
So do I.
His personal experiences like that time he was going to move to Montana and raise dental floss or when he had that thing with Camarillo Brillo
I read a qoute by Zappa years ago that went something to the effect that he'd rather listen to a kid in his garage strumming two chords on an out of tune guitar if he really means it than an accomplished musician just going through the motions.
Frank HAS mentioned McLaughlin as one of his favorite guitarists.
The boy asking the silly question didn't play.
Anyone know where I can find more of this footage?
There you have it.
ua-cam.com/video/wTLOsoMMDuE/v-deo.html
@@rudytormento9753 Thankyou, kind sir
The audience member didn't get it. For John McLaughlin speed is just one tool he uses to achieve his main aim - blistering intensity.
Miles Davis wrote a song called, John McLaughlin. Did he write one for either of these guys? No.
Mc Laughlin is institution, but he reached his best in his life playing with Paco de Lucia who is, then again, concidered by many important figures in guitar and jazz world as the best gitar player of all time
I didn't know they were talking about fast guitarist back then. As opposed to boomer bends David buchannon ,BB king gillmoore. Laughin. T
Frank was always the smartest man in the room.
The Mothers and the Mahavishnu O toured together in 1973 and where the latter would open for Zappa. Zappa would watch them and was impressed and influenced by McLaughlin. Theres a documentary that explores their influences upon one another on UA-cam.
Go listen to John’s early work with Tony William’s Lifetime.. The man was groundbreaking…
Frank was the 1st one on the scene as well as the first to do and invent many other things in music,some of them if not all of franks works were works of a true musical genius!! Let's talk Frank shall we...anyone? Anyone??😮😮😮😮😮😊
I've been playing since I was 13, and now I'm 68.
I have been proficient on many instruments over the decades, from Double Bass to Soprano Sax.
I played Bebop and Hard Bop for 15 years in various bands.
In my opinion, Frank is BY FAR the greatest guitarist that has ever existed.
The man was a genius - and I almost NEVER call anyone that!
One of the few times I disagree with Frank.
There's video on YT, where members in Frank's band (Ruth Underwood and maybe Ralph Humphreys?) at the time describe them going with Frank into a Mahavishnu soundcheck and hearing them for the first time. They all describe him to appear to have been "visibly shaken". Chester Thompson also talked about it, saying he was brought into the group specifically because of Cobham's sound in MO
Frank was a VG guitarist, but nowhere close to the same league as McLaughlin. And Frank, while a great and prolific composer, did not come anywhere close to breaking the ground that McLaughlin did. He practically started "World Music" with Shakti, fused with Flamenco, brought odd, eastern time signatures into rock and jazz.
Smart answer.
One of the really great Mystros of the 70s was Robert fripp from King Crimson and his fripptronics. Such a technical wizard. Then you get bill Bruford on drums and John wetton on bass wohoho watch out. It's easily one of the best rhythm sections you'll ever hear. Maybe besides patrick o'hearn and terry bozzio. Frank had the most incredible feel. That's what I love about him. I enjoy the hell out of Steve howe Alex lifeson Alan Holdsworth Al di meola John Scofield Larry Coryell Steve Hillage(ace) and McLaughlin. These guys are absolute professors of their craft. I still think Frank had better feel than any of them. His solos are absolutely legendary, especially around 75 to 82 If I had a picky year, it would be 1980 he was on fire on that beautiful fire burst les paul. And you can't forget Tony Iommi from Black Sabbath. He was an absolute Master as well and he had to Re learn his craft all over again because of an accident, he had where he lost part of his fingers.
But Frank doesn't get enough credit for his guitar virtuoso. Incredibly underrated, At this point in my life, I don't think there's a better guitarist He will surprise you every time.. no one has more of an influence on me then FZ.
The interviewer asked Zappa if he was impressed with Mclauglins finger speed on the guitar and Zappa gave an honest answer to that specific question, the question was not about Mclauglins overall music ability.
But all this about John Mclaughlin is missing the point, he can play fast, as Zappa says, because he practices his scales.
He played fast with Bond, Bruce and Baker in the early 60's. He played fast with Mahavishnu Orchestra and played fast on Love Devotion Surrender with.
Carlos Santana.
He can still play fast today at 80 something.
But Miles chose him and Dave Holland because they were, first and foremost, musicians.
There's no speed on 'In a silent way' just precision and accuracy - note perfect for Miles.
One of the most influential recordings of the period.
Passion, Grace, and Fire is one of my greatest albums of all time ever...funnily enough though the only people I've heard praise John McLaughlin are his fans lol. This isn't the first interview I've heard with someone in the music business who's lukewarm to John McLaughlin hahaha.
Sandy Pearlman told me that McLaughlin cut the best solo from Between Nothingness and Eternity just to spite the musician who played the solo. Pearlman was still bitter about that like 40 years later lol.
No one ever says this about Flight of the Bumblebee, Coltrane, Mozart, Rachmaninoff or Art Tatum do they?
Or Gypsy Jazz and Flamenco
It's just the sensitivities of their "less is more guitar hero" are threatened and they by extension feel threatened and equate technique with bad.
mahavishnu ✌️🍀🌞
Lots of folks do not like jazz fusion or instrumental. They will look for something negative to say about it when the topic popsup. They love Jimmy Hendriks which is actually quite similar BUT HE SINGS THAT MAKES ALL GOOD..
Certainly there were times when listening to McLaughlin was akin to listening to the world's fastest typist.