After getting a 15cm stand to get my bookshelf speaker just the right height relative to my head, i noticed quite a significant improvement to the overall sound. Im honestly quite surprised
Great information! I have always found that speakers at head level provide better sound. I did this with a digital jukebox I built but standing up and sounds awesome. It fills out the room so much better and I am usually up around the house anyway.
The concentric drivers of my Pioneer and Elac speakers really help in timing and details between high and mid-range frequencies, and I typically toe them in.
Adjust speakers until the height of the singer is right...you will notice changes of height (during playback with the speakers fixed) if you do it right.
It's all about axis !! It's a well known fact that all dome type tweeters are highly directional. It's obvious when you consider the geometry of a dome that moves in and out ( albeit only a few microns ) because there is only one small part of the surface that actually pushes and pulls the air and that part is the centre . The rest of the dome area is 'slicing ' the air and causes turbulence . There is only one tweeter I can think of that is a dome and NOT directional and that is the Dynaudio Esotar.... a very expensive driver and this works on a completely different principle . The elliptical shaped dome is elastic and it relies on internal pressure modulation to move the external air ! This way ensures almost 180 degree constant dispersion.
How does the 'Tweeters at Ear level' Philosophy apply to the giant Infinity IRS V Speakers in PS Audio Room, with Umpteen Tweeters from Ground level all the way to the top of the Seven feet high Speakers ?
I got used Legacy Focus speakers when I put them tilted toward me, my wife wasn't too happy, said its not centered right, needs to look even. So I did make it even. Later while she was not there I turned them back toward my listening position (which makes big difference audio wise) so far it has been 2 weeks like that, no complaints. hehe
I believer all sound has harmonics that come from the primary frequency. The points at which a midrange crosses over to a tweeter and possibly a mid woofer or just a woofer -- these harmonics affect the sound, and the references you get to your ears give you points of reference the help with many other factors also. Even a double-bass has harmonics that are augmented by the tweeter . . . so it is my opinion that time alignment and positioning of the drivers do make a difference to the overall performance of the speakers.
You are absolutely correct! Nearly all sounds consist of the fundamental frequency plus harmonics. The ONLY exceptions to this are sine waves. Sine waves can only be produced by electronic test equipment (such as oscilloscopes) and synthesizers. This is the reason that different instruments (or different people) sound different even when they are producing the exact same pitch. When Paul mentions (at 1:07 in the video) that the human voice comes from the mid range, he is omitting the fact that the voice has overtone/harmonics that are integral to the sound. These overtones/harmonics extend well into the range of the tweeter.
Driver size in relation to the frequencies it's being asked to reproduce affects beaming and that affects the overall response of the system in regards to off axis listening. tweeters should always be toed-in to direct signal directly at the listening position and at ear level for the best high to mid frequency response and overall speaker response. some systems are designed with more focus on off axis listening so the effects of off axis response are reduced. if your speaker should be placed directly forward and off axis to reduce high frequency response for a better listening experience, it's probably not designed properly.
Tweeters at ear level,ok,but generally speaking can speakers be to far out from the back wall before they start to collapse something,imagining soundstage etc?? Mine are about 12" and the manufacturer say min. Of 8"
Paul, Mission put the tweeter in their speakers below the bass driver and therefore would normally be positioned below ear height for most listeners. Based on what you are saying about the short wavelengths for treble frequencies you would not therefore expect to hear any treble frequencies which does not make sense.
The wavelength of ALL components of audio are orders of magnitude longer than the dimensions of anything in the listening environment including the room itself. The thing that does remain critical is how the speakers disperse the sound evenly across the band (not gonna happen) and how the room reacts with and distorts the dispersion pattern. I have placed speakers in a way that essentially muted everything above midrange to the seated listener whereas the same setup in a different room works just fine. The heresy that I'm eluding to is that speaker dispersion specs to some extent go out the window the moment that speaker leaves the anechoic chamber.
I some sharp speakers hooked to my Sony stereo for my tv sound they play way lower than there specs say . My klipsch forte 3s still walk all over them regardless of what I hook them to I have a old five Watt per channel juilliette stereo just for playing 8 track tapes with just five Watts those forte 3s can summon the cops easily hooked to those five watts. I usually have them hooked to my McIntosh amp
That got me thinking of the early 80's when I installed jvc ribbon tweeters in the doors of my '74 Audi. They were as high as they could be, about elbow height, seated. The dispersion was such that I could hear left and right equally, instead of the one side or the other, as with dome tweeters.
High frequencies disperse less than lower frequencies. Bass frequencies can be heard several hundred years away if amplified enough. But tweeter can't.
Because the tweet is heard the weakest (and the most unclear) in most cases, if it is not at the level and height of the ears... but as always, despite recommendations, try the position.
I don't like that kind of speaker when listener ears must the same level from the tweeter, it's like your speaker told you where you must sit, just my personal preference. Because when I listen to music, I never sit in the same position all the time. I like the speaker that sounds good no matter what position I'm listening to it.
Thanks Paul; this answers a question/argument I have had with car auido. I have always thought that midrange should; for lack of a better word some what "bounce off" things up high to give the lower mids to have time to "get there". Yea I'm a bit of a "try hard". Keep up the great work, I look forward to hearing the new music rooms when I can get out of the east coast.
@@DQSpider Then you would also be talking about uneven toe, uneven rake, uneven wall distance and maybe even rotational angle (tweeter placement vs the woofer.) Some speakers have moveable tweeters That said, DSP based auto setup routines could work wonders if used in reverse where the system showed you what you're getting through moving the speakers and room objects instead of signal parameters which rob headroom and dynamics.
@@catsbyondrepair You obviously came here with such a closed mind that you couldn't even read the comment. DSP is useful but everybody's doing it backwards. They are missusing it to to correct for a proper signal reaching a faulty room/speaker package instead of using it to reveal problems that can possibly be solved mechanically.
@@taiefmiah stay away from eq on the master sound, move the speakers forward/ backward to tweak your bass on the 'sweet spot' , move them sideways to adjust to perfect centre(width),then tilt the speakers to get the singer to the correct height (most singers are standing up during performance).
A 20 khz frequency is above 40.000 feet wavelength.. Next?! (according to www.procato.com/calculator-wavelength-frequency/) Not to discount the idea of speakers and , generally, tweeters being ear level is a good thing but the argument that you make is not relevant.
The calculator you used is not correct for audible waves. A 20 kHz wave is about half an inch. 0.66 inches (or 17mm) to be exact. Here's the data: For sound waves in air, the speed of sound is 343 m/s (at room temperature and atmospheric pressure). The wavelengths of sound frequencies audible to the human ear (20 Hz-20 kHz) are thus between approximately 17 m and 17 mm, respectively.
After getting a 15cm stand to get my bookshelf speaker just the right height relative to my head, i noticed quite a significant improvement to the overall sound. Im honestly quite surprised
Great information! I have always found that speakers at head level provide better sound. I did this with a digital jukebox I built but standing up and sounds awesome. It fills out the room so much better and I am usually up around the house anyway.
The concentric drivers of my Pioneer and Elac speakers really help in timing and details between high and mid-range frequencies, and I typically toe them in.
Adjust speakers until the height of the singer is right...you will notice changes of height (during playback with the speakers fixed) if you do it right.
It's all about axis !!
It's a well known fact that all dome type tweeters are highly directional. It's obvious when you consider the geometry of a dome that moves in and out ( albeit only a few microns ) because there is only one small part of the surface that actually pushes and pulls the air and that part is the centre . The rest of the dome area is 'slicing ' the air and causes turbulence .
There is only one tweeter I can think of that is a dome and NOT directional and that is the Dynaudio Esotar.... a very expensive driver and this works on a completely different principle . The elliptical shaped dome is elastic and it relies on internal pressure modulation to move the external air ! This way ensures almost 180 degree constant dispersion.
I do like the way you honor the designers in the names of your BHK and the new AN series.
How does the 'Tweeters at Ear level' Philosophy apply to the giant Infinity IRS V Speakers in PS Audio Room, with Umpteen Tweeters from Ground level all the way to the top of the Seven feet high Speakers ?
I got used Legacy Focus speakers when I put them tilted toward me, my wife wasn't too happy, said its not centered right, needs to look even. So I did make it even. Later while she was not there I turned them back toward my listening position (which makes big difference audio wise) so far it has been 2 weeks like that, no complaints. hehe
Thats why I like coaxial speakers. I know that KEF and ELAC both make excellence coaxial speakers.
Also, most crossovers are designed at the tweeter level, so you’ll get large suckouts when not on vertical axis due to phase misalignments.
I believer all sound has harmonics that come from the primary frequency. The points at which a midrange crosses over to a tweeter and possibly a mid woofer or just a woofer -- these harmonics affect the sound, and the references you get to your ears give you points of reference the help with many other factors also. Even a double-bass has harmonics that are augmented by the tweeter . . . so it is my opinion that time alignment and positioning of the drivers do make a difference to the overall performance of the speakers.
You are absolutely correct! Nearly all sounds consist of the fundamental frequency plus harmonics. The ONLY exceptions to this are sine waves. Sine waves can only be produced by electronic test equipment (such as oscilloscopes) and synthesizers. This is the reason that different instruments (or different people) sound different even when they are producing the exact same pitch. When Paul mentions (at 1:07 in the video) that the human voice comes from the mid range, he is omitting the fact that the voice has overtone/harmonics that are integral to the sound. These overtones/harmonics extend well into the range of the tweeter.
I hear better overall imaging, sound staging when I am positioned in the sweet spot at ear level.
Hello, which speakers are those on your desk ?
Driver size in relation to the frequencies it's being asked to reproduce affects beaming and that affects the overall response of the system in regards to off axis listening. tweeters should always be toed-in to direct signal directly at the listening position and at ear level for the best high to mid frequency response and overall speaker response. some systems are designed with more focus on off axis listening so the effects of off axis response are reduced. if your speaker should be placed directly forward and off axis to reduce high frequency response for a better listening experience, it's probably not designed properly.
Tweeters at ear level,ok,but generally speaking can speakers be to far out from the back wall before they start to collapse something,imagining soundstage etc?? Mine are about 12" and the manufacturer say min. Of 8"
Paul, Mission put the tweeter in their speakers below the bass driver and therefore would normally be positioned below ear height for most listeners. Based on what you are saying about the short wavelengths for treble frequencies you would not therefore expect to hear any treble frequencies which does not make sense.
What mic are you using if you don't mind my asking?
You want the high frequencies to get to you first. If you hear lower frequencies before the high ones then it sounds wrong.
The wavelength of ALL components of audio are orders of magnitude longer than the dimensions of anything in the listening environment including the room itself. The thing that does remain critical is how the speakers disperse the sound evenly across the band (not gonna happen) and how the room reacts with and distorts the dispersion pattern. I have placed speakers in a way that essentially muted everything above midrange to the seated listener whereas the same setup in a different room works just fine. The heresy that I'm eluding to is that speaker dispersion specs to some extent go out the window the moment that speaker leaves the anechoic chamber.
My thoughts exactly.
Sorry that’s not right. Speed of sound is around 1100 feet per second. So at 1100Hz the wavelength is one foot.
@@luomoalto Minor oversight the speed of sound vs. light.😯
And that depends on you ear level, whether you you are standing or sitting.
Paul? yes, good question :)
I some sharp speakers hooked to my Sony stereo for my tv sound they play way lower than there specs say . My klipsch forte 3s still walk all over them regardless of what I hook them to I have a old five Watt per channel juilliette stereo just for playing 8 track tapes with just five Watts those forte 3s can summon the cops easily hooked to those five watts. I usually have them hooked to my McIntosh amp
That got me thinking of the early 80's when I installed jvc ribbon tweeters in the doors of my '74 Audi.
They were as high as they could be, about elbow height, seated. The dispersion was such that I could hear left and right equally, instead of the one side or the other, as with dome tweeters.
High frequencies disperse less than lower frequencies. Bass frequencies can be heard several hundred years away if amplified enough. But tweeter can't.
Someday he's going to open with the question and just say "beats the heck out of me" (que outro).
Because the tweet is heard the weakest (and the most unclear) in most cases, if it is not at the level and height of the ears... but as always, despite recommendations, try the position.
I don't like that kind of speaker when listener ears must the same level from the tweeter, it's like your speaker told you where you must sit, just my personal preference. Because when I listen to music, I never sit in the same position all the time. I like the speaker that sounds good no matter what position I'm listening to it.
Thanks Paul; this answers a question/argument I have had with car auido. I have always thought that midrange should; for lack of a better word some what "bounce off" things up high to give the lower mids to have time to "get there". Yea I'm a bit of a "try hard".
Keep up the great work, I look forward to hearing the new music rooms when I can get out of the east coast.
Right speaker higher than the left. What is this blasphemy!
@@DQSpider Then you would also be talking about uneven toe, uneven rake, uneven wall distance and maybe even rotational angle (tweeter placement vs the woofer.) Some speakers have moveable tweeters That said, DSP based auto setup routines could work wonders if used in reverse where the system showed you what you're getting through moving the speakers and room objects instead of signal parameters which rob headroom and dynamics.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind dsp is fake ass sound go somewhere else Bose fan.
@@catsbyondrepair You obviously came here with such a closed mind that you couldn't even read the comment. DSP is useful but everybody's doing it backwards. They are missusing it to to correct for a proper signal reaching a faulty room/speaker package instead of using it to reveal problems that can possibly be solved mechanically.
@@catsbyondrepair parametric EQ is a pretty useful tool
@@taiefmiah stay away from eq on the master sound, move the speakers forward/ backward to tweak your bass on the 'sweet spot' , move them sideways to adjust to perfect centre(width),then tilt the speakers to get the singer to the correct height (most singers are standing up during performance).
Put the damn tweeter in the middle of the woofer problem solved.
Isn't that a coaxial? KEF and ELAC both make excellence coaxial speakers.
LIL PEEP post-it on monitor. maybe the one next to it says Lil Baby? Whoever works at that desk......
Or just do like Paul, Tweeters from the floor to the ceilings.
5:48 "The horizontal dimension..." *flaps his hands like a goose in despair*
Your talkative gestures are so funny :)
A 20 khz frequency is above 40.000 feet wavelength.. Next?! (according to www.procato.com/calculator-wavelength-frequency/)
Not to discount the idea of speakers and , generally, tweeters being ear level is a good thing but the argument that you make is not relevant.
The calculator you used is not correct for audible waves. A 20 kHz wave is about half an inch. 0.66 inches (or 17mm) to be exact.
Here's the data:
For sound waves in air, the speed of sound is 343 m/s (at room temperature and atmospheric pressure). The wavelengths of sound frequencies audible to the human ear (20 Hz-20 kHz) are thus between approximately 17 m and 17 mm, respectively.
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio It's really not right. My apologies. Had a bad night when I made the comment.
This is why KEF put the tweeter right in the middle of the woofer
Magneplanar 3.7i. Problem solved.