@randommadness1021 he also negates to talk about the fact Argentina have a picture of a Scotsman in there football hall of fame, they worship him as tge man that gave them football
Something you completely overlooked is the rules of the game. The rules by which we play the game today are the Glasgow rules. Very little has changed in the rules since the 1870's. So it can still be argued that Scotland has given the world the modern game.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Bullshit for a start there is no mention.of a goal keeper in the English rules we have evidence of goal keeping for 1636 in Aberdeen in the Wedderburn book
Correct. Jimmy Lang & Peter Andrews both came down to Sheffield in 1876 to play. Jimmy Lang was indirectly paid to play for The Wednesday so the first professional. Also, yes McGregor was key to setting up the football league in 1888 but all these individuals combined significantly developed the modern game, they did not invent it. Would you agree?
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball the truth of who invented the modern game ,must be whittled down to committees, as the real inventors were probably kids on a street somewhere. Anyway,our football has not developed at all,and to see native Scots English Welsh Northern Irish being overlooked in favour of imports is destroying the game.
what does invented mean and what is football? In early days football was quite similar to rugby. These kind of discussions can be difficult because it's all semantics. If a group of lads used to meet up to play a casual football in a park from 1850, then in 1880 it becomes so popular that these people form an official club and become a pro football club, then did the club start in 1850 or 1880 and if a stadium was built inside the park in 1900, then could they claim to have the oldest ever stadium because they could correctly say football has been played on that site from 1850.
@@patsanters2741Scotland was one of many countries that had a form of football China seems to be the oldest. But when we talk about who invented football we tend to be talking about today’s game ( Association Football. ) And the strongest claims to that does belong to Sheffield.
Yes that is correct but it was't association football or anything that had any influence on association footballs development. You might as well claim the 1824 Edinburgh club was the inspiration for rugby, Australian Rules, US football, Canadian football, hockey, Irish rules etc.. To do so would be ridiculous so why do it for association football?
As I always understood it, there were two sets of rules that developed at the same time, the Scottish rules and the English rules. And they were very different sets of rules. And as I understand, the rules that we play now are an evolution of the Scottish rules, the English game went extinct. It’s a bit like the English claim that they invented Baseball, just because they invented rounders. In saying that, I stand to be wrong. I haven’t done the research you have done here (although I don’t have a UA-cam channel name that influences my opinion either). But the aggregate of what I have seen and read suggests that Association Football is the Scottish game that Queens Park played, and the game that Sheffield used to play went extinct when that rule set died out.
Very interesting viewpoints, and even if I don't agree with it all, thanks for coming to Scotland to see for yourself. Surprised that you say just two players from the Vale of Leven area went south as professionals before 1890, there were actually quite a few. Of the Scotland internationalists, ie better quality players, you could mention Sandy McLintock, Johnny Forbes, Jimmy Cowan and John Murray (all Vale of Leven); George Dewar, Alex Latta, John Madden and Peter Miller (all Dumbarton); Bob Kelso, Andy Hannah, John Lindsay and Duncan McLean (all Renton).
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Here you go: Sandy McLintock 1884 (Vale of Leven to Burnley), Johnny Forbes 1888 (Vale of Leven to Blackburn Rovers), Jimmy Cowan (Vale of Leven to Aston Villa 1889), John Murray (Vale of Leven to Sunderland 1890), George Dewar (Dumbarton to Blackburn Rovers 1889), Alex Latta (Dumbarton to Everton 1889), John Madden (Dumbarton to Gainsborough Trinity 1887), Peter Miller (Dumbarton to West Hartlepool NER 1889), Bob Kelso (Renton to Newcastle West End 1888), Andy Hannah (Renton to Everton 1889), John Lindsay (Renton to Accrington 1889), Duncan McLean (Renton to Everton 1890). These are just the internationalists - all detailed in my Scotland Who's Who - but there were others too, eg Burnley had four ex-Vale of Leven players in 1884.
Thanks Andy, so it seems from 1884 onwards Vale of Leven players did come south in numbers. This does make sense considering the strength of the football in the vale. It's an important statistic that needs noting but it still does seem to have happened just after Jack Hunter's spreading of Sheffield's game had impacted on Blackburn Olympic's success in 1883. Would you agree?@@andymitchell9706
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball No, I don't agree. I don't see how you can take Vale of Leven players in isolation, when there were plenty of other Scots who came to Lancashire before them, and long before Jack Hunter arrived at Olympic in the summer of 1882. A few prominent names to mention include Jimmy Love (1878 Darwen), Fergus Suter (1878 Darwen then Blackburn Rovers) and his brother Edward Suter (1879 Darwen), Hugh McIntyre (1879 Blackburn Rovers), Peter Campbell (1879 Blackburn Rovers), Jimmy Douglas (1880 Blackburn Rovers), William Struthers (1881 Bolton Wanderers). There were others. While I don't deny that Hunter was a top player and influential in Olympic's cup success, he was just one man - so if the Sheffield passing game was so important in changing the way football was played why did he, and the East Lancashire clubs in general, not recruit more Sheffield players? Instead, the clubs recruited time after time from Scotland, and in recognition of these Scottish players' impact on Lancashire football, the term 'Scotch Professor' had already been coined before Hunter moved from Sheffield to Blackburn. Fundamentally, however, it is all about influence, and loads of people from different backgrounds had an influence on the way football developed in the pioneering years. The idea that anyone can claim to have 'invented' football, or that any single place is the one-and-only 'home of football' is patently ridiculous. So in that respect I agree with you that Scotland did not invent football - but nor did Sheffield, Cambridge or London.
Every single player in Liverpool FCs first side where Scots, they were known as "the team of macs" also almost every major club in England had several Scots in their teams a situation that continued right through the 1920s and 1930s indeed Scottish players were so different and exotic they were regarded as indispensable. Sorry but Sheffield rules had players catching the ball with their hands (Gaelic Football) and the Scots stopped that, throw ins were invented here and the modern passing game stop being so ungrateful.
Waw! The holes in your argument that Sheffield invented modern-day football. Sounded a bit desperate and almost panicky! You are making assumptions about why some Scottish players went south. While others (the players from QueensPark and the 3 vale team's) never went south. Without mentioning that perhaps the best players stayed in Scotland simply because that is where the best team's and best competition was. And, of course, completely neglected to mention the fact that football in some form was played in the west of Scotland for at least 150 years before Queen's Park was even conceived! And was probably taken south of the border and played by Scottish migrant workers way before the inception of any Sheffield team. Making football a Scottish game! Glossing over and outright, ignoring hard facts, does not win an argument, my friend. Try doing this video again without the biased opinions of your upbringing, please! You may get to the truth (not necessarily the one you set out to find) of the matter!
Everyone can argue but onw thing is sure scotland is the heartland of the game. The whole of England dose not revolve around football but scotland dose the whole county the culture in every class is centered in the game.
It means so much to Scotland that they've let the same two teams win the top tier of their league for the past 38 years and not give a shit about the rest!
Brilliant video. The West of Scotland has a massive Scots-Italian Community. Playing a positive role in the game. Including having fish and chip wagons at grounds a century ago. Many of these families come from Tuscany. Scotland only changed the game. Football goes back to the Greeks. A form of game still played today in Firenze is "Calcio storici fiorentino". One of it's most famous players was Pope Clement VII. This means wee Phil at Ibrox isnae the first Clement to be famous in football. Of course this point also highlights the problems Scotland has brought to the game. This will bring a good source of banter to Celtic fans who follow our club motto of "know your history". For some it will mean banter of "God Bless Pope Phil Clement VIII - the orange heathen"
Forget all this passing and tactical criteria, I never based it off of that as I agree it’s not really relevant, I always based it off of the simple fact before any official FA or rules were ever formed there were games played in Glasgow& WOS that we would now all recognise as football… that’s in my opinion the invention claim, the fact it was spread and later officially made into rules and an FA in England first might mean the credit goes elsewhere on paper but the roots started in Scotland
The first 15 internationals between Scotland and England, aka The Auld Enemy, the skill, tactics and artistry of the Scottish players were such that England only won twice, and they were both played at home. For a long time the Scottish game was copied, but not matched! Taken from the book I have: "100 years of Scottish Football" by John Rafferty 1973
I have a mountain of very recent research Corby that shows this is incorrect I'm afraid. Much more so since I made this video working alongside other historians. We have published some of our findings recently at The International Football Historians Conference this year and are preparing an academic paper to publish all our current up to date findings. It's nothing to do with the results of international games. If you went back in time to witness Sheffield football in the mid 1860's (likely as early as at least 1861) you would see a game of formations, passing, through balls, long balls, crosses, balls wide, short passing .. in short, modern football. We know this form of the game influenced other towns & regions in the north of England, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire for example so it either influenced football in Glasgow or football in Glasgow developed in a similar way but 10 years later than in Sheffield. Trains did exist then. Sheffield football had real impact. You play by Sheffield rules today and individuals like Jack Hunter led clubs like Blackburn Olympic to real historical success using Sheffield football tactics. Jack Hunter NOT Fergus Suter!
Yes and No. England invented the modern football rules, but Scotland invented passing and the way the game is played these days. Both countries are responsible for the game we all know and love.
was my grampa, who was a heelander that told me. So, I just took it from him that it was true. Was probably his da and his da before him etc. so no evidence other than I had no reason to disbelieve him. Maybe not the most compelling, but I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere. Told me that those games were the only times the clans got together and didnae tear lumps out of each other. After the game it was back to business as usual
@@Roybatty443 OK. Not saying your answers are misinformed but I assume that to make claims like Scotland Invented Modern Football we do need more than just family stores handed down?
It;s home is Sheffield Corby. Come and visit. We have walking tours, new blue plaques, coming statues and an a free to enter exhibition on at the Town hall all summer. It's not going anywhere.
Football in Scotland Football was played in Scotland in the early Middle Ages. Scotland seems to be the first country in the world to encourage women to play football. In the 18th century football was linked to local marriage customs in the Highlands. Single women would play football games against married women. Single men would watch these games and use the evidence of their footballing ability to help them select prospective brides. Charles W. Alcock, the secretary of the Football Association, arranged the first international football game to be played on the 30th November, 1872. Alcock took a team of English born players to play against a team from Scotland. The match, played in Glasgow, ended in a 0-0 draw. The main objective was to publicize the game of football in Scotland. It had the desired effect and the following year the Scottish Football Association was formed and the England-Scotland match became an annual fixture. Initially, the Scottish Football Association comprised of eight clubs, 3rd Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteers, Clydesdale, Dumbreck, Eastern, Granville, Kilmarnock, Queen's Park and Vale of Leven. The SFA established a challenge cup and this was won by Queen's Park in its first year. Queen's Park, who dominated early Scottish football, also won it for the next two years.
I've watched a couple of other video's that claimed crossbars,corner flags and half time originated in Scotland. Was expecting that to be debunked as well.
We did invent football, I truly believe but just like the King Arthur legend who was Scottish too, it was an idea stolen by the Ebglish. You might have the oldest formulated clubs but the oldest football dating back to 1540 can be found in Stirling and cost King Jame's IV two shillings but we were playing it long before that when King James actually felt the need to outlaw the game through an Act of Parliament called the Football Act 1424. This stupid law forbid Scots from participating in the game we invented at the risk of a 4 pence fine until it was eventually repelled in 1906. We invented it, England perfected it and created structure and rules, as they.do in the process of thieving it.
Wedderburn’s rule book lists throw ins and corner kicks as part of the Scottish game. England were still to invent their national game during the early 19th century at Rugby College.
The public schoolboys of England may have codified the game (they certainly didn't invent it) "Scotland, once essentially the land of football" Charles Alcock 1872
@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball So angry aren't you that we have the ordasity to say we created the modern game in Scotland Never mind the Scotch professor's but just look at the Countries and clubs Scits gave created and leagues works wide not just the football league And this isn't even in doubt
The oldest known football was found in her bed chamber at Stirling Castle Dianel but she is unlikely to have played modern association football with it despite later spending most of her life in Sheffield.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball with her having the first ever football could the sport have originated in France 🇫🇷 since that’s where she was sent as a little girl to grow up and she did marrie king Frances of France
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Several times Mary had to be moved to places of greater safety and stricter control. On 28 November 1570 she was taken to the Earl of Shrewsbury's castle at Tutbury, where, apart from a few breaks at Chatsworth and Buxton, and more regular visits to Sheffield and the Manor House, she remained for 14 years. She grew in France after being put to France 🇫🇷 by her father that was Scottish 🏴 she was placed in France 🇫🇷 to protect her from the English 🏴 she arrived back to her homeland Scotland after her husband passed away. She was there to protect Scotland from the English 🏴 married her husband died in a fire 🔥 she received the blame for his death. She had a boy who later became king of England 🏴 and of Scotland. 🏴 that’s how the first ever butchers apron developed. Elizabeth took Mary she was frightened of Mary becoming the new queen of England 🏴 and Scotland 🏴. She was taken and imprisoned deceived to believe she was going to be safe. England just take everything that Scotland 🏴 created invented or discovered then call it British. 🇬🇧 then try and take that off Scotland like the oil and gas and move the goalposts to make out they did it instead. Like the royal family that are not English but descendant’s of Scotland’s royals and European royals. The English-just receive the profits . Several times Mary had to be moved to places of greater safety and stricter control. On 28 November 1570 she was taken to the Earl of Shrewsbury's castle at Tutbury, where, apart from a few breaks at Chatsworth and Buxton, and more regular visits to Sheffield and the Manor House, she remained for 14 years.
@@DianeLittle-dd6ej I think that's a stretch Diane. A game with a ball maybe but not what we call association football. She spent 15 years in Sheffield but the game as we know it didn't start there intill 1855 at the earliest.
You did your best to discredit the Scottish side of the discussion but as my dad (a Yorkshire man would always say) there two sides to an argument and the truth is in the middle somewhere there's so much you never mentioned as well but hay so what a mentione of Andrew Watsons story would have been great but look it up your self its very interesting.
Thanks for your comment Dave. I agree, Andrew Watson's story is very interesting & I am aware of him but there is only so much you can put into a video. I have actually done a lot more research since I made the video. I am speaking next weekend at the International Football Historians conference in Cardiff this year with other historians. A focus is the nature of the early game of football in Sheffield. The truth isn't in the middle. Passing, combined tactical play, in short the embryonic features of modern football came from the game that developed first in Sheffield, certainly from 1865 and most likely as early as 1861. Most likely, a similar development happened in Glasgow with Queens Park, the international side and representative teams 11 to 13 years later. The lack of offside was key in both locations. Modern football came from Sheffield not Scotland. It's more than my opinion and can be proven with a lot of hard historical evidence.
I'll tell you this for nowt: if we Scots did invent the game, it's pretty evident on tonight's debacle in Munich, that we've completely forgotten how to play it!
Great set of comments guys, really enjoyed reading them all. Thank you. At the end of the day you have to take the view that nobody completely invented modern football. We can of course discount anything not related to the modern form of the game we call association football, but understand that game we love had various influences. Early rules being spread by Cambridge students, innovators in London & Glasgow and pioneers of the professional league system in the midlands and north east of England. What I believe we can argue is that many of the parts of the game we now call modern association football did originate from one northern town that had by 1875 48% of all the clubs in the world at that point (178), multiple world firsts (clubs, matches, grounds, tournaments, passing reports, rules etc..) but only 1% of the population of the country. This concentration of footballing activity makes Sheffield the only place that can actually make the claim to be the 'home of football' 'the first city of football'. This is NOT a ridiculous claim. Football was not completely invented in Sheffield or anywhere for that matter, but it is the city, the place on the planet that had the biggest influence on the games development and if you now your history, you will know that the game of association football would not even exist today without Sheffield's influence, especially during the 1860's (look up William Chesterman). The rules your team plays by today are an amalgamation of both FA & Sheffield rules dating back to actual full codification in 1877. Yes Sheffield had an early fair catch rule but its lack of offside made it the closet game of all the early rules (FA's included) to today's game. Gaelic football it certainly was not. This game had passing from at least 1861. Your team, whoever they are owes at least a small nod to Sheffield no matter how hard some try to resit bending their necks. Go on, try it. Nod.
Ruined by the council planting trees and replacing the old concrete barriers. Well worth a visit tho. It has an aura about it, standing on 120yrs old banked terracing sensing the souls who roared on their shirted favourites.
Just looked up the first season of the football league. No mention of Sheffield. How many touch downs did Sheffield score. The so called Sheffield rules seem to be a form of rugby.
Hi Maurice, yes Sheffield Rules did have a rouge scoring system but a match played in Sheffield in the very earliest days of football would have looked very similar to a match played today other thanks this. The game played in London was actually more like "rugby with feet" in the first 20 years of the game. The game in Sheffield was a passing and formational tactical game from as early as definately 1865 & likely earlier. All to be very soon published in an academic paper for analysis.
Hi Michael, the medal you are referring to was not a tournament trophy played for by a number of competing clubs. Just 2 groups of players (not clubs) & the losing team buying the medal for the winners some time after as some sort of reward. So not a trophy or tournament as we understand it today. The Youdan Cup was the first competitive tournament.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Edinburgh and Glasgow influenced football (to become the modern game) more than any English cities (Because the Anglo version was more like rugby.) Let’s not forget that the English, Spanish, Argentinian and Scottish football leagues were all founded by Scotsmen
China invented a sport involving kicking a ball, England were fast to monetise it and adopt innovations, and as above, Scotland made what football is today. If you spectated John hopes 1824 football club and compared to Sheffield’s style, you would recognise the Scottish game more Scottish managers in the modern era … England had their good few, but throughout time there seems to be a trend of Scot’s constantly innovating… And about player (professors)… Queen’s Park paid their first ever fee for a player in 2021 and have had an amateur status almost all of its existence Lisbon lions… enough said… Rangers 1972… all Scottish Aberdeen 1983… all Scottish.. World championship 1895… Hearts vs Sunderland… all 22 players playing were Scottish
Hi, thanks for your comment. Unfortunately that narrative misses out the massive contribution one town, Sheffield made to early modern football development (including passing). China had nothing to do with the emergence of association football. It may help to view my series 'Who Invented Football?'
Of course .. like golf, bowls, curling and just about everything else useful to humanity. Indeed an American academic recently wrote a book claiming that Scotland invented the modern world. Not much left for any other nation to boast about then .. ? 🤣
My understanding is 12 individuals were involved as players during the first season, 6 were Scots, 5 were English & 1 was Welsh. Hope that helps? Please let me know if you know of different accounts.
This English man is determined to make sure England bring it home 😂 as in keeping the English believe they actually did invent the sport but it doesn’t matter why because they haven’t a clue on sportsmanship or friendly games or how to actually be a human being
We'll just forget queens park had the first season tickets or the first black international player played for us or Brazil or even Argentina who say Scotland invented the game. Typical cherry pick, so called facts from a English man who's source literally is the English fa book of facts. So called British history is full of it like Scotland is older than England. We also have scara brey which is older than stone henge. Go on and buy a book on british history apparently we don't have any until England came along.
Scotland has many significant football firsts Ryan. My video does not deny that. I'm not cherry picking. I'm spent a whole week in Scotland filming and doing research and speaking to people like Lindsey who are experts on Scotland's football history. Before my visit I did extensive research and have continued it since. I cannot conclude based on what evidence I have found that Scotland invented modern football. Contributed yes (I say this in the video), invented NO! For the record I am English but grew up & first experienced football in Zambia. I am also originally from Manchester, not Sheffield.
Queens Park fc original ground is situated at the bowling club across from the recreation ground just to the south of the entrance of the main road at the railway bridge
100% Scotland invented football everyone in world football knows it. The first football is in Stirling castle and the clans were playing it before Sheffield was even thought of.
OK but they weren't playing association football were they? They might have been kicking a ball about in Stirling or the Scottish hills but the Chinese did that 3000 years ago so did they invent football? Do you see my point?
I'm sorry to say but if you actually do some research you'll. Find out. Ancient china. Invented football, It's amazing the things you can learn by actually researching. Isn't it, And before anybody starts. I did a video about it ancient china invented football it's called cuju
Actually the oldest football was played in the north east of Scotland in the 13th century. Two teams passed the ball between team members and scored goals. But yer English so of course that will not be valid either.
Hi Mark, This club sound very interesting so do you have a name and more info? .... but its not because I'm English that I might say this club aren't part of our debate its because this club aren't part of any link to the development of modern association football. We'll be saying China invented football next.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Oh it isn't really part of your debate. It waqs simply a game that was played at that time. In the 13th century I don't even know if the concept of club existed. You want to debate a very specific idea of what football is probably because it's the only way to show football originated in England. All I am saying is a form of football existed long before that. I don't mean that in a nasty way. I understand you want the outcome you want so you phrase the question in such a way as to give the answer you want. I cannot show that the game you say originated in England was in any way influenced by events elsewhere but it would be quite a coincidence if it didn't.
@@madmark1957 No.perhaps about it and it should be recognised by FIFA like Edinburgh foot ball club should be regarded as the oldest team but there to scared to upset the English
Modern association football, the formational passing game the world loves & plays today comes from Sheffield user. Not England or Scotland however Sheffield is in England if you want to be "picky". If you play, you are playing Sheffield rules still today, crossbar, corners, throw ins, free kicks, penalties, referees, heading, formations, passing of various forms, tournaments, trophies, 11 a side, 90 mins, ball size, floodlights, etc.. all from Sheffield rules football as early as 9th October 1858. This is all evidenced and documented historically so shouldn't really be challenged other than by new solid historical evidence. Drama's like The English Game are great to view, BBC documentaries about Scottish football make feel good viewing north of the border but you cannot argue with solid historical evidence. Don't believe the HYPE!!
There’s no evidence that any form Sheffield came up to Scotland to introduce the passing game. There are several examples of Scots going to England to play their passing game though. So to say that it was Sheffield that invented the passing game is one hell of a straw man argument.
Passing and formations started to develop in Sheffield football during the 1860's Lewis. The same way of playing the game may have developed separately in Glasgow a few years later but people did travel between the 2 cities during this period so the circumstantial evidence suggests the knowledge got transferred by rail. Either way, passing in modern association football started in Sheffield first from 1861 onwards. I actually put some of the evidence in the video for you to see so why the debate?
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball I did watch the video it was really good I don’t remember you mentioning people from Sheffield coming up to Glasgow to teach the passing game. But I could obviously be wrong.
@@lewismcdonald9691 No I didn't Lewis. I do however list 4 sources referencing passing in Sheffield during the 1860's. I have about 50 of these all pre passing references for Glasgow if you need more convincing? As I said, passing may have evolved separately in both locations but it seems unlikely considering the communications that were available at the time.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball But you have no evidence of how the passing game in Sheffield got to Glasgow. Where as there is evidence in your video of Scottish footballers brought passing to lots of areas in England and thought the world actually.
@@lewismcdonald9691 Well Lewis yes as there is a lot of evidence that the passing game from Sheffield went to places like Nottingham, Lincoln, Leeds, Manchester, Blackburn etc mostly before the mid 1870's. The way these players & teams travelled? The railways!
@@rolandsausage Hi, just wondered if you had any evidence. There does exist a lot of original source evidence showing that football in Sheffield was a passing game and an expansive formational game from at least the early 1860's. This indicates that passing in the sport of association football didn't start in Scotland as you seem to suggest.
@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball third lanark had 3 grounds the first at govanhill park the second at boyd street cathcart road then hampden park the new catkin park you were in
IT WAS A NEW GAME from an English perspective!!!!! Jesus read a bit further than your English bias will you. The English did not pass - end of discussion. They played 1 guy on the ball that ran towards the opposition surrounded by a protective shield of players. They protected the ball and player till they got to the opposite end. It was all about ego. The English (not short on ego) would not like to be seen to loose face and do something as cowardly as pass the ball!! The Scots however were a far more pragmatic bunch and despite being much smaller and lighter, showed the English that their game was nowhere near good enough. Until the English adopted (and bought) the Scottish style of play, we beat you fairly easily. Just had a thought, it never occurred to me - is Sheffield in England? Oh and.... Football is never coming home because Scotland have no chance of winning either tournament :)
Hi, if you send me your email I will pass on all the references I have to show that football in Sheffield in at least 1865 (likely earlier) was a passing game & not a 'pack / dribbling' style played by London clubs in the way you describe in your comment. Happy to pass on the historical data for you to analyse yourself. Are you open to that?
The modern rules are held at Aberdeen University invented by Scots in the 16th century, including throw ins and corner kicks, while in England they carried the ball in their hands. England invented Rugby. King James V banned the playing of football to stop the Scots from neglecting archery practice.
The only problem with this claim unfortunately is there is no evidence that anything that happened anywhere in the world prior to the mid 1850's influenced how the modern rules of the game came to be formed other than the influence that came from places like Cambridge, London & Sheffield. If there is influence from Scotland on how the modern rules of association football emerged I would to see it please. China played a game with a round ball thousands of years ago but there is no evidence this directly influenced the rules of modern football. I hope that makes sense? Thanks for the comment.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Aberdeen University Library has the historical document that proves the rules of the modern game were invented in Scotland. Next you’ll be claiming that golf was also invented by an Englishman and that the Scots did not give birth to William Wallace who was the real legendary Robin Hood and King Arthur written of in the 7th century Scottish chronicles . Is it any wonder that we get pissed off with Englands false claims.
@@AnthonyCooper-f8t Dutch invented GOLF/KOLF Scoatish just claimed credit for it, Royal Engineers/Cambridge UNI are the inventors of Association Football, Scoatish typically rewriting history to claim credit for others achievements.
As if we didn't contribute enough inventions.. TV telephone penicillin etc razor gangs.. the list goes on & don't forget, I invented shaggin! I was 15 - circa 1994 and hadn't even had a hand shandy yet.. Great Times (not my words) lol. And aye we invented fitbaw yaassss dammed sassanachs right roon yaes
Happy to send you all the multiple historical evidence we have. Just ask please. Passing originated in the modern game in Sheffield as early as 1865 and likely 1861. The first actual reference to named players passing a ball in Scottish football I have found is 1874 in a match played against Sheffield at Bramall Lane in Sheffield during the second half. If you have anything different please let me know.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball As are all the ones you can get online. I mean have you watched either of the Sheffield clubs... passing game, a total mystery to them, as is playing anything remotely close to football.
Hi John, yes very rattled. I don't understand why the history of association football seems to have so many intelligent people who study it but so many misconceptions and basically "lies" surrounding it when there is now so much evidence to look at to understand how our modern game came into being. Just yesterday there was an article in the Daily Mail titled "Actually, we Scots invented football". In January this year the BBC spent a lot of tax payers money producing a documentary about how association football originated in Scotland and a couple of years ago Netflix produced The English Game that has convinced a whole town (Blackburn) to spent money renovating & celebrating the wrong grave in it's cemetery. All deliberate inaccuracies that are attempting to rewrite history in favour of one country and city, specifically Glasgow.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball it depends on the definition of "football". Many places throughout these Isles played a variety of ba' games, from Orkney in the north to Duns in the south, centuries before the adoption of combination/association football.
Yes, correct. But these 'games with a ball' have been played all over the world for centuries & were not anything to do with football as we know it today.@@cnoc500
You missed the Scotsman who took the "modern" game to Brazil.
@randommadness1021 he also negates to talk about the fact Argentina have a picture of a Scotsman in there football hall of fame, they worship him as tge man that gave them football
@graemedouglas3859 Aye, there's a couple of "McGregors", "Campbells" etc... still playing in south America to this day.
Something you completely overlooked is the rules of the game. The rules by which we play the game today are the Glasgow rules. Very little has changed in the rules since the 1870's. So it can still be argued that Scotland has given the world the modern game.
The rules e play by today Scott are the 1877 amalgamation the FA & Sheffield rules.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Wrong, but you stand by your belief, mate.
No probs Scott but you might want to look up the date when the rules were completely amalgamated.@@scottw.3258
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootballTake a look at the rules you never even used goalkeepers we did
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Bullshit for a start there is no mention.of a goal keeper in the English rules we have evidence of goal keeping for 1636 in Aberdeen in the Wedderburn book
A lot of Scots started clubs in England, clubs including Aston Villa and Arsenal etal
It was a Scotsman who started the Football League. William McGregor
It was. But that wasn't when modern association football was invented Maurice.
Ah love seeing my hometown Balloch randomly 😂
The Vale has important sporting heritage.
William Mcgregor created the first professional league in England,a Scot.
The first professionally paid player was a Glaswegian.
Correct. Jimmy Lang & Peter Andrews both came down to Sheffield in 1876 to play. Jimmy Lang was indirectly paid to play for The Wednesday so the first professional. Also, yes McGregor was key to setting up the football league in 1888 but all these individuals combined significantly developed the modern game, they did not invent it. Would you agree?
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball the truth of who invented the modern game ,must be whittled down to committees, as the real inventors were probably kids on a street somewhere.
Anyway,our football has not developed at all,and to see native Scots English Welsh Northern Irish being overlooked in favour of imports is destroying the game.
Scotland invented Football although in England they say they did but again they would not say different . Was invented in Scotland .
Thanks Pat. Please view the evidence in the video and let me know your thoughts.
what does invented mean and what is football? In early days football was quite similar to rugby. These kind of discussions can be difficult because it's all semantics. If a group of lads used to meet up to play a casual football in a park from 1850, then in 1880 it becomes so popular that these people form an official club and become a pro football club, then did the club start in 1850 or 1880 and if a stadium was built inside the park in 1900, then could they claim to have the oldest ever stadium because they could correctly say football has been played on that site from 1850.
England try claim everything in font of Scotland,
If it's true, yes Alex.@@alexmcintyre6353
@@patsanters2741Scotland was one of many countries that had a form of football China seems to be the oldest.
But when we talk about who invented football we tend to be talking about today’s game ( Association Football. ) And the strongest claims to that does belong to Sheffield.
The Foot Ball Club of Edinburgh was founded as the first club to play any type of organized football.
Yes that is correct but it was't association football or anything that had any influence on association footballs development. You might as well claim the 1824 Edinburgh club was the inspiration for rugby, Australian Rules, US football, Canadian football, hockey, Irish rules etc.. To do so would be ridiculous so why do it for association football?
As a Scot, I don’t believe WE invented football. But we did take it worldwide.
As I always understood it, there were two sets of rules that developed at the same time, the Scottish rules and the English rules. And they were very different sets of rules.
And as I understand, the rules that we play now are an evolution of the Scottish rules, the English game went extinct.
It’s a bit like the English claim that they invented Baseball, just because they invented rounders.
In saying that, I stand to be wrong. I haven’t done the research you have done here (although I don’t have a UA-cam channel name that influences my opinion either). But the aggregate of what I have seen and read suggests that Association Football is the Scottish game that Queens Park played, and the game that Sheffield used to play went extinct when that rule set died out.
The English claim everything! Rounders was actually invented by the Irish.
Very interesting viewpoints, and even if I don't agree with it all, thanks for coming to Scotland to see for yourself. Surprised that you say just two players from the Vale of Leven area went south as professionals before 1890, there were actually quite a few. Of the Scotland internationalists, ie better quality players, you could mention Sandy McLintock, Johnny Forbes, Jimmy Cowan and John Murray (all Vale of Leven); George Dewar, Alex Latta, John Madden and Peter Miller (all Dumbarton); Bob Kelso, Andy Hannah, John Lindsay and Duncan McLean (all Renton).
That's interesting Andy. Sorry I couldn't find these. What years did they move the English clubs please?
Also, is this Andy Mitchell mentioned by Westby? (& others of course)
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Here you go: Sandy McLintock 1884 (Vale of Leven to Burnley), Johnny Forbes 1888 (Vale of Leven to Blackburn Rovers), Jimmy Cowan (Vale of Leven to Aston Villa 1889), John Murray (Vale of Leven to Sunderland 1890), George Dewar (Dumbarton to Blackburn Rovers 1889), Alex Latta (Dumbarton to Everton 1889), John Madden (Dumbarton to Gainsborough Trinity 1887), Peter Miller (Dumbarton to West Hartlepool NER 1889), Bob Kelso (Renton to Newcastle West End 1888), Andy Hannah (Renton to Everton 1889), John Lindsay (Renton to Accrington 1889), Duncan McLean (Renton to Everton 1890). These are just the internationalists - all detailed in my Scotland Who's Who - but there were others too, eg Burnley had four ex-Vale of Leven players in 1884.
Thanks Andy, so it seems from 1884 onwards Vale of Leven players did come south in numbers. This does make sense considering the strength of the football in the vale. It's an important statistic that needs noting but it still does seem to have happened just after Jack Hunter's spreading of Sheffield's game had impacted on Blackburn Olympic's success in 1883. Would you agree?@@andymitchell9706
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball No, I don't agree. I don't see how you can take Vale of Leven players in isolation, when there were plenty of other Scots who came to Lancashire before them, and long before Jack Hunter arrived at Olympic in the summer of 1882. A few prominent names to mention include Jimmy Love (1878 Darwen), Fergus Suter (1878 Darwen then Blackburn Rovers) and his brother Edward Suter (1879 Darwen), Hugh McIntyre (1879 Blackburn Rovers), Peter Campbell (1879 Blackburn Rovers), Jimmy Douglas (1880 Blackburn Rovers), William Struthers (1881 Bolton Wanderers). There were others. While I don't deny that Hunter was a top player and influential in Olympic's cup success, he was just one man - so if the Sheffield passing game was so important in changing the way football was played why did he, and the East Lancashire clubs in general, not recruit more Sheffield players? Instead, the clubs recruited time after time from Scotland, and in recognition of these Scottish players' impact on Lancashire football, the term 'Scotch Professor' had already been coined before Hunter moved from Sheffield to Blackburn. Fundamentally, however, it is all about influence, and loads of people from different backgrounds had an influence on the way football developed in the pioneering years. The idea that anyone can claim to have 'invented' football, or that any single place is the one-and-only 'home of football' is patently ridiculous. So in that respect I agree with you that Scotland did not invent football - but nor did Sheffield, Cambridge or London.
It's called the Andy Murray syndrome! When he loses a game of tennis he's Scottish but when he wins he's British 😂
Hay!! Good luck tomorrow!!
Every single player in Liverpool FCs first side where Scots, they were known as "the team of macs" also almost every major club in England had several Scots in their teams a situation that continued right through the 1920s and 1930s indeed Scottish players were so different and exotic they were regarded as indispensable. Sorry but Sheffield rules had players catching the ball with their hands (Gaelic Football) and the Scots stopped that, throw ins were invented here and the modern passing game stop being so ungrateful.
We play by the Glasgow rules in the modern game. The only thing to have changed is offside. Scotland is the birth of the modern game.
Waw! The holes in your argument that Sheffield invented modern-day football. Sounded a bit desperate and almost panicky!
You are making assumptions about why some Scottish players went south. While others (the players from QueensPark and the 3 vale team's) never went south.
Without mentioning that perhaps the best players stayed in Scotland simply because that is where the best team's and best competition was.
And, of course, completely neglected to mention the fact that football in some form was played in the west of Scotland for at least 150 years before Queen's Park was even conceived! And was probably taken south of the border and played by Scottish migrant workers way before the inception of any Sheffield team. Making football a Scottish game!
Glossing over and outright, ignoring hard facts, does not win an argument, my friend. Try doing this video again without the biased opinions of your upbringing, please! You may get to the truth (not necessarily the one you set out to find) of the matter!
Everyone can argue but onw thing is sure scotland is the heartland of the game. The whole of England dose not revolve around football but scotland dose the whole county the culture in every class is centered in the game.
It means so much to Scotland that they've let the same two teams win the top tier of their league for the past 38 years and not give a shit about the rest!
@@tomdonler2363 It’s also worth noting the teams that win year on year ad nauseum don’t even represent the country.
Brilliant video. The West of Scotland has a massive Scots-Italian Community. Playing a positive role in the game. Including having fish and chip wagons at grounds a century ago. Many of these families come from Tuscany. Scotland only changed the game. Football goes back to the Greeks. A form of game still played today in Firenze is "Calcio storici fiorentino". One of it's most famous players was Pope Clement VII. This means wee Phil at Ibrox isnae the first Clement to be famous in football. Of course this point also highlights the problems Scotland has brought to the game. This will bring a good source of banter to Celtic fans who follow our club motto of "know your history". For some it will mean banter of "God Bless Pope Phil Clement VIII - the orange heathen"
You do know the pope and king billy were allied. The pope payed for his army
Forget all this passing and tactical criteria, I never based it off of that as I agree it’s not really relevant, I always based it off of the simple fact before any official FA or rules were ever formed there were games played in Glasgow& WOS that we would now all recognise as football… that’s in my opinion the invention claim, the fact it was spread and later officially made into rules and an FA in England first might mean the credit goes elsewhere on paper but the roots started in Scotland
As a football history nerd i really appreciate this channel
The first 15 internationals between Scotland and England, aka The Auld Enemy, the skill, tactics and artistry of the Scottish players were such that England only won twice, and they were both played at home. For a long time the Scottish game was copied, but not matched! Taken from the book I have: "100 years of Scottish Football" by John Rafferty 1973
I have a mountain of very recent research Corby that shows this is incorrect I'm afraid. Much more so since I made this video working alongside other historians. We have published some of our findings recently at The International Football Historians Conference this year and are preparing an academic paper to publish all our current up to date findings. It's nothing to do with the results of international games. If you went back in time to witness Sheffield football in the mid 1860's (likely as early as at least 1861) you would see a game of formations, passing, through balls, long balls, crosses, balls wide, short passing .. in short, modern football. We know this form of the game influenced other towns & regions in the north of England, Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire for example so it either influenced football in Glasgow or football in Glasgow developed in a similar way but 10 years later than in Sheffield. Trains did exist then. Sheffield football had real impact. You play by Sheffield rules today and individuals like Jack Hunter led clubs like Blackburn Olympic to real historical success using Sheffield football tactics. Jack Hunter NOT Fergus Suter!
Yes and No. England invented the modern football rules, but Scotland invented passing and the way the game is played these days. Both countries are responsible for the game we all know and love.
Thanks Robert. What do you think about the many match reports commenting on passing in the Sheffield game from 1861 onwards? I show some in the video.
Another interesting video! It would be good to see a whole video just on that Netflix show to see what is accurate and what is fiction!!
It's still on Netflix Rosie but just be aware of what is truth & what is fiction.
It was the highland clans that used to play each other. Invented the passing game well before the 1800s
Hi, I would love to see the documentary evidence for this to put in my next video. Can you forward it to me please. Many thanks!!
was my grampa, who was a heelander that told me. So, I just took it from him that it was true. Was probably his da and his da before him etc. so no evidence other than I had no reason to disbelieve him. Maybe not the most compelling, but I’m sure it’s in the archives somewhere. Told me that those games were the only times the clans got together and didnae tear lumps out of each other. After the game it was back to business as usual
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball the book 'Border Reivers' mentions handba and fitba as border games in the 1600s. Well worth a read
@@Roybatty443 OK. Not saying your answers are misinformed but I assume that to make claims like Scotland Invented Modern Football we do need more than just family stores handed down?
@@aaron234567890987643 Hi Aaron. That sounds fascinating but handba & fitba aren't modern football, 11 a side, 90 mins etc are they?
Given that the site calls itself 'Sheffield the home of football' I think someone is having a larf. 😊😊
Whoever invented the modern game, Scotland or England, ITS NEVER COMING HOME, not in our lifetimes! Peace!
It;s home is Sheffield Corby. Come and visit. We have walking tours, new blue plaques, coming statues and an a free to enter exhibition on at the Town hall all summer. It's not going anywhere.
You also forgot to mention that the oldest football in the world is in Stirling castle, It was used by Mary queen of Scot’s in the 16th century
Hi Richard yes & others have mentioned it if you look at the comments but thanks.
Football in Scotland
Football was played in Scotland in the early Middle Ages. Scotland seems to be the first country in the world to encourage women to play football. In the 18th century football was linked to local marriage customs in the Highlands. Single women would play football games against married women. Single men would watch these games and use the evidence of their footballing ability to help them select prospective brides.
Charles W. Alcock, the secretary of the Football Association, arranged the first international football game to be played on the 30th November, 1872. Alcock took a team of English born players to play against a team from Scotland. The match, played in Glasgow, ended in a 0-0 draw. The main objective was to publicize the game of football in Scotland. It had the desired effect and the following year the Scottish Football Association was formed and the England-Scotland match became an annual fixture.
Initially, the Scottish Football Association comprised of eight clubs, 3rd Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteers, Clydesdale, Dumbreck, Eastern, Granville, Kilmarnock, Queen's Park and Vale of Leven. The SFA established a challenge cup and this was won by Queen's Park in its first year. Queen's Park, who dominated early Scottish football, also won it for the next two years.
Yes Diane but all this doesn't mean that modern association football was invented in Scotland.
Royal Engineers/Cambridge UNI team are responsible for modern Football, Scoatish just typically rewriting history to claim achievements of others.
Everyone knows Scotland invented football as well as everything else in the modern world.
BS, just typical Scoatish chauvinism/narcissism/conceit.
I've watched a couple of other video's that claimed crossbars,corner flags and half time originated in Scotland. Was expecting that to be debunked as well.
All true.
First dug out
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. When it comes to history it usually is.
We did invent football, I truly believe but just like the King Arthur legend who was Scottish too, it was an idea stolen by the Ebglish. You might have the oldest formulated clubs but the oldest football dating back to 1540 can be found in Stirling and cost King Jame's IV two shillings but we were playing it long before that when King James actually felt the need to outlaw the game through an Act of Parliament called the Football Act 1424. This stupid law forbid Scots from participating in the game we invented at the risk of a 4 pence fine until it was eventually repelled in 1906. We invented it, England perfected it and created structure and rules, as they.do in the process of thieving it.
David Wedderburns book to is older than anything they have which has rules 1636 think it is from a Aberdonian school teacher
Wedderburn’s rule book lists throw ins and corner kicks as part of the Scottish game. England were still to invent their national game during the early 19th century at Rugby College.
LOL AH typical romanticized Scoatish BS
The public schoolboys of England may have codified the game (they certainly didn't invent it)
"Scotland, once essentially the land of football" Charles Alcock 1872
Are you aware of Sheffield's involvement? Modern football did not originate from public schools. Please view the video and let me know your thoughts.
John hope, first ever rules of football, 1833 Edinburgh football club. Pre dates Sheffield by 25 years.
Hi David, it was actually 1824, but unfortunately did not influence how modern football developed so not related to our story.@@davidforman6191
@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball So angry aren't you that we have the ordasity to say we created the modern game in Scotland
Never mind the Scotch professor's but just look at the Countries and clubs Scits gave created and leagues works wide not just the football league
And this isn't even in doubt
Mary queen of Scotland had the first ever football
The oldest known football was found in her bed chamber at Stirling Castle Dianel but she is unlikely to have played modern association football with it despite later spending most of her life in Sheffield.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball with her having the first ever football could the sport have originated in France 🇫🇷 since that’s where she was sent as a little girl to grow up and she did marrie king Frances of France
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball she didn’t spend her life in Sheffield she was imprisoned she was kept locked away before finally executed
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball
Several times Mary had to be moved to places of greater safety and stricter control. On 28 November 1570 she was taken to the Earl of Shrewsbury's castle at Tutbury, where, apart from a few breaks at Chatsworth and Buxton, and more regular visits to Sheffield and the Manor House, she remained for 14 years. She grew in France after being put to France 🇫🇷 by her father that was Scottish 🏴 she was placed in France 🇫🇷 to protect her from the English 🏴 she arrived back to her homeland Scotland after her husband passed away. She was there to protect Scotland from the English 🏴 married her husband died in a fire 🔥 she received the blame for his death. She had a boy who later became king of England 🏴 and of Scotland. 🏴 that’s how the first ever butchers apron developed. Elizabeth took Mary she was frightened of Mary becoming the new queen of England 🏴 and Scotland 🏴.
She was taken and imprisoned deceived to believe she was going to be safe.
England just take everything that Scotland 🏴 created invented or discovered then call it British. 🇬🇧 then try and take that off Scotland like the oil and gas and move the goalposts to make out they did it instead. Like the royal family that are not English but descendant’s of Scotland’s royals and European royals. The English-just receive the profits .
Several times Mary had to be moved to places of greater safety and stricter control. On 28 November 1570 she was taken to the Earl of Shrewsbury's castle at Tutbury, where, apart from a few breaks at Chatsworth and Buxton, and more regular visits to Sheffield and the Manor House, she remained for 14 years.
@@DianeLittle-dd6ej I think that's a stretch Diane. A game with a ball maybe but not what we call association football. She spent 15 years in Sheffield but the game as we know it didn't start there intill 1855 at the earliest.
You did your best to discredit the Scottish side of the discussion but as my dad (a Yorkshire man would always say) there two sides to an argument and the truth is in the middle somewhere there's so much you never mentioned as well but hay so what a mentione of Andrew Watsons story would have been great but look it up your self its very interesting.
Thanks for your comment Dave. I agree, Andrew Watson's story is very interesting & I am aware of him but there is only so much you can put into a video. I have actually done a lot more research since I made the video. I am speaking next weekend at the International Football Historians conference in Cardiff this year with other historians. A focus is the nature of the early game of football in Sheffield. The truth isn't in the middle. Passing, combined tactical play, in short the embryonic features of modern football came from the game that developed first in Sheffield, certainly from 1865 and most likely as early as 1861. Most likely, a similar development happened in Glasgow with Queens Park, the international side and representative teams 11 to 13 years later. The lack of offside was key in both locations. Modern football came from Sheffield not Scotland. It's more than my opinion and can be proven with a lot of hard historical evidence.
I'll tell you this for nowt: if we Scots did invent the game, it's pretty evident on tonight's debacle in Munich, that we've completely forgotten how to play it!
Colin I'm so sorry but I did laugh at your comment. Hope things improve next week!!
Scotland invented hockey too. But the Canadians made it their craft and pastime
And basketball.
And golf
Scotland 🏴 are the creators of the modern world
YES of course
Think the real question is who invented Kirby
Nice! I think that's went extinct now but, shame...
Great set of comments guys, really enjoyed reading them all. Thank you. At the end of the day you have to take the view that nobody completely invented modern football. We can of course discount anything not related to the modern form of the game we call association football, but understand that game we love had various influences. Early rules being spread by Cambridge students, innovators in London & Glasgow and pioneers of the professional league system in the midlands and north east of England.
What I believe we can argue is that many of the parts of the game we now call modern association football did originate from one northern town that had by 1875 48% of all the clubs in the world at that point (178), multiple world firsts (clubs, matches, grounds, tournaments, passing reports, rules etc..) but only 1% of the population of the country. This concentration of footballing activity makes Sheffield the only place that can actually make the claim to be the 'home of football' 'the first city of football'. This is NOT a ridiculous claim.
Football was not completely invented in Sheffield or anywhere for that matter, but it is the city, the place on the planet that had the biggest influence on the games development and if you now your history, you will know that the game of association football would not even exist today without Sheffield's influence, especially during the 1860's (look up William Chesterman). The rules your team plays by today are an amalgamation of both FA & Sheffield rules dating back to actual full codification in 1877. Yes Sheffield had an early fair catch rule but its lack of offside made it the closet game of all the early rules (FA's included) to today's game. Gaelic football it certainly was not. This game had passing from at least 1861. Your team, whoever they are owes at least a small nod to Sheffield no matter how hard some try to resit bending their necks. Go on, try it. Nod.
2nd Hampden amazing.
It's a great abandoned stadium!!
Ruined by the council planting trees and replacing the old concrete barriers.
Well worth a visit tho. It has an aura about it, standing on 120yrs old banked terracing sensing the souls who roared on their shirted favourites.
Just looked up the first season of the football league. No mention of Sheffield. How many touch downs did Sheffield score. The so called Sheffield rules seem to be a form of rugby.
Hi Maurice, yes Sheffield Rules did have a rouge scoring system but a match played in Sheffield in the very earliest days of football would have looked very similar to a match played today other thanks this. The game played in London was actually more like "rugby with feet" in the first 20 years of the game. The game in Sheffield was a passing and formational tactical game from as early as definately 1865 & likely earlier. All to be very soon published in an academic paper for analysis.
The Scottish Cup is the oldest trophy in all of sport, not just football. Enough said!
Hi Michael, the medal you are referring to was not a tournament trophy played for by a number of competing clubs. Just 2 groups of players (not clubs) & the losing team buying the medal for the winners some time after as some sort of reward. So not a trophy or tournament as we understand it today. The Youdan Cup was the first competitive tournament.
Yes Scotland invented the modern game via Queens Park the early English Football was a kind of Rugby.
Hi Paul, thanks for the comment. Yes FA football was like rugby with feet very early on but not in 1872 & certain never in Sheffield well before 1867.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball
Edinburgh and Glasgow influenced football (to become the modern game) more than any English cities (Because the Anglo version was more like rugby.)
Let’s not forget that the English, Spanish, Argentinian and Scottish football leagues were all founded by Scotsmen
China invented a sport involving kicking a ball, England were fast to monetise it and adopt innovations, and as above, Scotland made what football is today.
If you spectated John hopes 1824 football club and compared to Sheffield’s style, you would recognise the Scottish game more
Scottish managers in the modern era … England had their good few, but throughout time there seems to be a trend of Scot’s constantly innovating…
And about player (professors)…
Queen’s Park paid their first ever fee for a player in 2021 and have had an amateur status almost all of its existence
Lisbon lions… enough said…
Rangers 1972… all Scottish
Aberdeen 1983… all Scottish..
World championship 1895… Hearts vs Sunderland… all 22 players playing were Scottish
Thanks for your comment Matthew. Was Sheffield football like rugby? @@MwB987
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball
Sheffield rules allowed the ball to be “pushed”, “hit” or caught (fair catch) so yes??
The Chinese. Then England invented the modern game with the first FA.
Hi, thanks for your comment. Unfortunately that narrative misses out the massive contribution one town, Sheffield made to early modern football development (including passing). China had nothing to do with the emergence of association football. It may help to view my series 'Who Invented Football?'
NAW lad a Scot also set up the Chinese league John Prentice think it was
@@legandrydirkThe invention of football you dummy. That's why China was mentioned. England is still the the first FA whether you like it or not.
Reading the comments it seems like a fairly divisive topic 😂
Yes
Thanks John, but view the video please.
I did, my response is the same@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball
Yes it was Scotland
Thanks for the comment Liz. Have you watched the video?
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball yes I have
OK much appreciated!@@elizabethmcintyre8529
We invented it and longshanks banned it . Enter Sir William Wallace Guardian of Scotland 😅
Scotland 5 England 1
Of course .. like golf, bowls, curling and just about everything else useful to humanity. Indeed an American academic recently wrote a book claiming that Scotland invented the modern world. Not much left for any other nation to boast about then .. ? 🤣
I do like a dram of whisky Gez. Don't forget that.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball 👍
How can half of Preston be Scots and the other halves be English and Welsh ?
My understanding is 12 individuals were involved as players during the first season, 6 were Scots, 5 were English & 1 was Welsh. Hope that helps? Please let me know if you know of different accounts.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball there are only 2 halves ,not 3 unless that's a new English adaptation of logic as well?
😅@@yesenochwasRIGHT
This English man is determined to make sure England bring it home 😂 as in keeping the English believe they actually did invent the sport but it doesn’t matter why because they haven’t a clue on sportsmanship or friendly games or how to actually be a human being
Scotland also created Ice Hockey,
a far better sport.
I think the author of this video doth protest too much. Just another in a long line of Englishman trying to rewrite history.
Rewriting History is what Scoatish/Scoatland are masters of.
We'll just forget queens park had the first season tickets or the first black international player played for us or Brazil or even Argentina who say Scotland invented the game. Typical cherry pick, so called facts from a English man who's source literally is the English fa book of facts. So called British history is full of it like Scotland is older than England. We also have scara brey which is older than stone henge. Go on and buy a book on british history apparently we don't have any until England came along.
Scotland has many significant football firsts Ryan. My video does not deny that. I'm not cherry picking. I'm spent a whole week in Scotland filming and doing research and speaking to people like Lindsey who are experts on Scotland's football history. Before my visit I did extensive research and have continued it since. I cannot conclude based on what evidence I have found that Scotland invented modern football. Contributed yes (I say this in the video), invented NO! For the record I am English but grew up & first experienced football in Zambia. I am also originally from Manchester, not Sheffield.
Queens Park fc original ground is situated at the bowling club across from the recreation ground just to the south of the entrance of the main road at the railway bridge
i hope not
Watch the video and find out?
100% Scotland invented football everyone in world football knows it.
The first football is in Stirling castle and the clans were playing it before Sheffield was even thought of.
OK but they weren't playing association football were they? They might have been kicking a ball about in Stirling or the Scottish hills but the Chinese did that 3000 years ago so did they invent football? Do you see my point?
I'm sorry to say but if you actually do some research you'll. Find out. Ancient china. Invented football,
It's amazing the things you can learn by actually researching. Isn't it,
And before anybody starts. I did a video about it ancient china invented football it's called cuju
Hi, China may have invented a game with a ball but I'm afraid it wasn't association football.
engerland invents everything before anyone! engerlish are the best at everything! Freedom!!!
Actually the oldest football was played in the north east of Scotland in the 13th century. Two teams passed the ball between team members and scored goals. But yer English so of course that will not be valid either.
Hi Mark, This club sound very interesting so do you have a name and more info? .... but its not because I'm English that I might say this club aren't part of our debate its because this club aren't part of any link to the development of modern association football. We'll be saying China invented football next.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Oh it isn't really part of your debate. It waqs simply a game that was played at that time. In the 13th century I don't even know if the concept of club existed. You want to debate a very specific idea of what football is probably because it's the only way to show football originated in England. All I am saying is a form of football existed long before that. I don't mean that in a nasty way. I understand you want the outcome you want so you phrase the question in such a way as to give the answer you want. I cannot show that the game you say originated in England was in any way influenced by events elsewhere but it would be quite a coincidence if it didn't.
Oldest game was against the French in Stirling Castle the English shouldn't even be co founders or a main rival 😉😉
@@legandrydirk First international perhaps.
@@madmark1957 No.perhaps about it and it should be recognised by FIFA like Edinburgh foot ball club should be regarded as the oldest team but there to scared to upset the English
The pump up the park more like,
Which ironically was created by an Englishman.
@toph8298 that's what I meant
Scotland invented football but baddiel and skinner created a song saying England did ... Bloody typical.
Modern association football, the formational passing game the world loves & plays today comes from Sheffield user. Not England or Scotland however Sheffield is in England if you want to be "picky". If you play, you are playing Sheffield rules still today, crossbar, corners, throw ins, free kicks, penalties, referees, heading, formations, passing of various forms, tournaments, trophies, 11 a side, 90 mins, ball size, floodlights, etc.. all from Sheffield rules football as early as 9th October 1858. This is all evidenced and documented historically so shouldn't really be challenged other than by new solid historical evidence. Drama's like The English Game are great to view, BBC documentaries about Scottish football make feel good viewing north of the border but you cannot argue with solid historical evidence. Don't believe the HYPE!!
There’s no evidence that any form Sheffield came up to Scotland to introduce the passing game. There are several examples of Scots going to England to play their passing game though. So to say that it was Sheffield that invented the passing game is one hell of a straw man argument.
Passing and formations started to develop in Sheffield football during the 1860's Lewis. The same way of playing the game may have developed separately in Glasgow a few years later but people did travel between the 2 cities during this period so the circumstantial evidence suggests the knowledge got transferred by rail. Either way, passing in modern association football started in Sheffield first from 1861 onwards. I actually put some of the evidence in the video for you to see so why the debate?
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball I did watch the video it was really good I don’t remember you mentioning people from Sheffield coming up to Glasgow to teach the passing game. But I could obviously be wrong.
@@lewismcdonald9691 No I didn't Lewis. I do however list 4 sources referencing passing in Sheffield during the 1860's. I have about 50 of these all pre passing references for Glasgow if you need more convincing? As I said, passing may have evolved separately in both locations but it seems unlikely considering the communications that were available at the time.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball But you have no evidence of how the passing game in Sheffield got to Glasgow. Where as there is evidence in your video of Scottish footballers brought passing to lots of areas in England and thought the world actually.
@@lewismcdonald9691 Well Lewis yes as there is a lot of evidence that the passing game from Sheffield went to places like Nottingham, Lincoln, Leeds, Manchester, Blackburn etc mostly before the mid 1870's. The way these players & teams travelled? The railways!
We might have invented it but we are not very good at it
Scotland also invented the Boomerang .
Why not ,we invented everything else 😂
The Scottish invented everything… just ask them.
Well, the Scotts do punch above their weight regarding inventing things I have to admit that but modern association football shouldn't be on the list.
No they didn't.
No they didn’t…..Ireland did!……..😂🇨🇮✌🏻
The modern passing game we now know definitely was invented by Scots
How do we know that Roland? Definitely is a very definite word.
@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball it definitely is isn't it 😁
@@rolandsausage Hi, just wondered if you had any evidence. There does exist a lot of original source evidence showing that football in Sheffield was a passing game and an expansive formational game from at least the early 1860's. This indicates that passing in the sport of association football didn't start in Scotland as you seem to suggest.
@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball third lanark had 3 grounds the first at govanhill park the second at boyd street cathcart road then hampden park the new catkin park you were in
@@wboyle9721 Yes I going to visit them in a few weeks time. Many thanks!!
IT WAS A NEW GAME from an English perspective!!!!! Jesus read a bit further than your English bias will you. The English did not pass - end of discussion. They played 1 guy on the ball that ran towards the opposition surrounded by a protective shield of players. They protected the ball and player till they got to the opposite end. It was all about ego. The English (not short on ego) would not like to be seen to loose face and do something as cowardly as pass the ball!! The Scots however were a far more pragmatic bunch and despite being much smaller and lighter, showed the English that their game was nowhere near good enough. Until the English adopted (and bought) the Scottish style of play, we beat you fairly easily.
Just had a thought, it never occurred to me - is Sheffield in England? Oh and.... Football is never coming home because Scotland have no chance of winning either tournament :)
Hi, if you send me your email I will pass on all the references I have to show that football in Sheffield in at least 1865 (likely earlier) was a passing game & not a 'pack / dribbling' style played by London clubs in the way you describe in your comment. Happy to pass on the historical data for you to analyse yourself. Are you open to that?
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Sheffield is pretty close to Scotland so obviously you were influenced by the game here.
The modern rules are held at Aberdeen University invented by Scots in the 16th century, including throw ins and corner kicks, while in England they carried the ball in their hands. England invented Rugby. King James V banned the playing of football to stop the Scots from neglecting archery practice.
The only problem with this claim unfortunately is there is no evidence that anything that happened anywhere in the world prior to the mid 1850's influenced how the modern rules of the game came to be formed other than the influence that came from places like Cambridge, London & Sheffield. If there is influence from Scotland on how the modern rules of association football emerged I would to see it please. China played a game with a round ball thousands of years ago but there is no evidence this directly influenced the rules of modern football. I hope that makes sense? Thanks for the comment.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Aberdeen University Library has the historical document that proves the rules of the modern game were invented in Scotland. Next you’ll be claiming that golf was also invented by an Englishman and that the Scots did not give birth to William Wallace who was the real legendary Robin Hood and King Arthur written of in the 7th century Scottish chronicles . Is it any wonder that we get pissed off with Englands false claims.
@@AnthonyCooper-f8t Dutch invented GOLF/KOLF Scoatish just claimed credit for it, Royal Engineers/Cambridge UNI are the inventors of Association Football, Scoatish typically rewriting history to claim credit for others achievements.
@ What year did the Dutch , part of the Spanish Empire, invent Golf. You must give me a date.
@@AnthonyCooper-f8t 1200's at earliest, but well established in early 18th century.
Bloody Jocks! They'll be claiming the invention of that mystical brew Henderson's Relish next... or might that be the Chinese?
Bloody Morris dancers, always resentful!
Back in your box mate
Bloody Jocks? You mean Scots of course. Let's not be racist. I know you're angry but hold it in and suck it up
As if we didn't contribute enough inventions.. TV telephone penicillin etc razor gangs.. the list goes on & don't forget, I invented shaggin! I was 15 - circa 1994 and hadn't even had a hand shandy yet.. Great Times (not my words) lol. And aye we invented fitbaw yaassss dammed sassanachs right roon yaes
Scotland invented england monetised
A bit odd considering Scots developed professionalism.
Your arse that was the case. Sheffield discovered the passing game?! You saft in the head? The Scots had invented the passing game years ago.
Happy to send you all the multiple historical evidence we have. Just ask please. Passing originated in the modern game in Sheffield as early as 1865 and likely 1861. The first actual reference to named players passing a ball in Scottish football I have found is 1874 in a match played against Sheffield at Bramall Lane in Sheffield during the second half. If you have anything different please let me know.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball Yes, I am sure you could - remarkable what you can buy on the internet.
@@Theagchm Up to you they are original sources.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball As are all the ones you can get online. I mean have you watched either of the Sheffield clubs... passing game, a total mystery to them, as is playing anything remotely close to football.
Bollocks. Scotland invested modern football, because Scotland invented the telly. End of, pal! See ye later.
No. England did. It’s an indisputable FACT!
Exactly the Scots have watched Braveheart too much and basically become facts to them 😆
You seem rattled mate.
Hi John, yes very rattled. I don't understand why the history of association football seems to have so many intelligent people who study it but so many misconceptions and basically "lies" surrounding it when there is now so much evidence to look at to understand how our modern game came into being. Just yesterday there was an article in the Daily Mail titled "Actually, we Scots invented football". In January this year the BBC spent a lot of tax payers money producing a documentary about how association football originated in Scotland and a couple of years ago Netflix produced The English Game that has convinced a whole town (Blackburn) to spent money renovating & celebrating the wrong grave in it's cemetery. All deliberate inaccuracies that are attempting to rewrite history in favour of one country and city, specifically Glasgow.
Scoatish are the ones rattled, why are they so desperate to rewrite history and claim credit for others achievements as they typically do eh.
So the answer is Britain 🎉
Correct, but not initially in Scotland.
@@SheffieldTheHomeofFootball it depends on the definition of "football". Many places throughout these Isles played a variety of ba' games, from Orkney in the north to Duns in the south, centuries before the adoption of combination/association football.
Yes, correct. But these 'games with a ball' have been played all over the world for centuries & were not anything to do with football as we know it today.@@cnoc500
naw ya maddy scotland