Is having speakers on the same surface as your turntable really THAT bad?
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- Let's investigate another common turntable-related meme that sounds believable at first glance, but is blown way out of proportion by people who never actually bothered to test it -- even including some turntable manufacturers.
#vinyl #turntable #speakers
Cargo-cult wisdom. "Don't do it! I don't know why, but everyone knows it's bad!"
Blanket advice given without context or rational thought is worse than useless. If this were a mass-scale critical issue, DJs at clubs with kilowatt sound systems would not be a thing. But they are, so.... maybe just use common sense and call it good.
Reminds me of the "distortion kills speakers" adage. It does not. Thermal overload kills speakers. Over-excursion kills speakers. If neither of those physical symptoms occurs, you can play square waves until you go deaf and the speakers will be just fine. Heaven help you if you argue that logic in an audio forum though.
Nick Wallette hi have you ever seen how they stet up the decks in the days of vinyl if they where pushing out that sort of power they used to suspend the decks with chances or place them on a thick bed of foam that’s how they and I overcame that problem
If all you are concerned about is being able to play loud music in a club, then no, no one is going to care. However, you are dead wrong to insinuate that the speakers are not affecting playback - because they are. If you pumped classical music, delicate acoustic guitar, or high quality vocals through those systems - at those decibels - AND you had a discerning, concert-going audience, it would be unlistenable . People dont go to clubs to LISTEN to the nuances of the music. They go there to drink, dance, and hook up. How is that for logic?
Pretty good! You got pretty close to rational thought there. Be careful - you'll get kicked out of the Golden Ears club if you keep that up.
In all seriousness, you're right - clubs aren't about nuanced listening. And I wouldn't dare insinuate (or even say out right) that there's no coupling at all between a loudspeaker and a nearby phono cartridge. Of course it affects playback. A farting frog down by the crick affects playback. The question is: to what degree?
All systems have resolution. If the coupling is below the noise floor, it doesn't have a *meaningful* impact. If that discerning, cork-sniffing, holier-than-thine-MP3-player crowd went to a club and asked the DJ to spin Concerto #5 at 112dBA, I would imagine the sheer SPL would trigger the reflexive closure of their eardrums, thus probably negating the minimal influence of the loudspeaker-cart loop up until the point where it was one falsetto short of equilibrium and into the sharp squeal of positive feedback. Does it add distortion? Yes. As much as a cheap Peavey IPR being pushed into the rails, a horn tweeter experiencing thermal compression losses, or a repurposed gymnasium generating an acoustic comb filter that would dazzle the Dollar Shave Club guy? Not likely.
For a REAL, above-the-noise-floor alteration of the signal through acoustic coupling, the impact of the speaker is going to have to be greater than the average level of the needle displacement by the record itself. Which insinuates that you've got the volume up there into "clubbin" territory. Which is a level to which no civilized listener would tread, right? It's up there in the "drink dance and get lucky" range.
A fellow above commented about foam isolation. When you have a row of 18" Black Widows moving half an inch peak to peak, you've got enough percussive excitation to make a measurable difference to the ability of a needle to track its groove - even if you had that deck hanging in free space. And yet it does, well enough that nobody notices the error. Let's not pretend that some yahoo in his pinstripe pajamas needs to worry about interference from a set of 8" bookshelf speakers turned up halfway on a 5W tube amp. It absolutely will couple. And of course nobody can tell you it doesn't matter because everyone's hearing is different and "YOU can tell!" Fine. Good for you.
All I'm saying is it's not the crime of the century for average Joe Listener, who just wants to listen to The Dark Side of the Moon. If a deck can COPE with Will I Am @ 6,000W in the same room, it can play near enough to perfect with 10W on the same occasion table.
M K hi there it’s very nice to read a comment from someone who knows what he is talking about my point is and was in a hifi set up we are trying to get a true reproduction of the music, most people don’t listen to music it’s just there in the background. I used to dj and yes all they wanted was loud and thumping they didn’t know that poor styles trying to stay in the groove was working over time but I always tried to make it sound as good as possible, at home it’s a different at least for me it’s the quality
of the music and not so much the volume. I listen eyes shut and chilled out
Happy new year 👍👍
M K yes you are right they don’t care but I always did and yes I know it caused distortion all I could do was try to minimise it
Damn, not Even Obama can save himself from audiophile hate
....and Obama had it on a marble surface that is highly unlikely to transmit vibration from one component to another anyway!
@@ukfmcbradioservicingTango21 Thought exactly that :)
Omg,, what if he had a crosley cruiser.... people’s heads would have literally exploded...
Ralph Hoskins LOL yeah totally
Imagine someone saying your setup "isn't expensive enough"
You probably can't hear how terrible it sounds because your ears aren't fine-tuned enough to hear the placebo effect.
I have this UA-cam video on Vinyl and it definitely makes a huge difference when he plays the music
Welp, time to avoid r/vinyl for the next 24-48 hours.
That or pop some popcorn and enjoy the show.
r/audiophile idiots are reporting this video
Louis Joke’s on them. Multiple false reports will get their accounts deleted on UA-cam.
Why do any of you even KNOW what they're talking about in the first place? I've seen the discussion and got bored in 3 seconds and never visited again. What I DO wonder about is (remember, I don't read the Reddit posts): why is this so specific for vinyl? And what's elitist about it? And yes, I've also met people who told me that a turntable setup that cost less than US$ 10.000 would sound even remotely good. Right....
the reddit user who advise everyone to avoid cheap turntables u/slavikcc deleted his account.
Ooh no, audiophile downvotes incoming.
wow your comment isn't even worth $1000 and you are clearly the president of Hyrule- does your opinion even count?!?! 😂
Hilarious
www.reddit.com/r/vinyl/comments/ab5t0x/is_having_speakers_on_the_same_surface_as_your/
Not even going to bother voting. This kind of testing, not hindered by any kind of knowledge, is just painful to watch.
@Oli K
My comment at least makes sense, as opposed to your angry gibberish; I haven't even expressed any kind of opinion with it.
Clearly the test is not valid, he was not using cable rises made of unobtanium that cancel out the gravitational pull on the electrons and didn't connect his speakers with an 192 karat gold wires with at least 100k hours burn in.
Obama's speakers looked just like the ones Techmoan bought for his 4-part series on how to assemble a budget Hi-Fi.
I think that's because they are :) Or very similar. They even are from the same brand :)
at least Obama has some tastes in his audio setup. Judging by his setup, he probably does not, or cannot have loud music anyway. LOL
grodenbarg Hm, if Techmoan is to be believed, those Kanto’s are pretty loud 😀
Hahahaha they did too
@@grodenbarg he watches techmoan
VWestlife DESTROYS audio geeks with FACTS and LOGIC
Also known as audiofools
No he hasn't. It really depends on the equipment. The more powerful the speakers, the bigger the issue it's going to create. You wouldn't put your turntables on the same surface as PA speakers for example, that would just be stupid.
@@SSJfraz Well, they sort of do with Technics SL-1200's in clubs. But they DO use cartridges especially designed for such an environment running a high tracking weight...
@@erwindewit4073 I've never witnessed a turntable DJ having their PA speakers on the same surface as the turntables themselves. Either the PA system is the clubs own system and usually mounted to the walls, or the DJ sets up his own PA system, with the speakers either on the ground, or on their own independent stands. Having a higher tracking force isn't going to make much difference at those levels. The resonance generated at these volumes is far too great to have the speakers on the same surface as the turntables.
@@SSJfraz You're right of course. The PA is very close. Close enough to cause serious vibrations on the platform the turntables are on. I used to be a DJ for a good while, and I was regularly surprised the turntables tracked at all! Let alone track without skipping.. Ever... But tracking force was usually set to 6-6,5 grams on Ortofon Concorde DJ cartridges. My Nagaoka MP-110 and vintage turntable wouldn't stand a chance. They probably would even play at all in an environment like that... Even with the speakers 'isolated' from the ground, the air pressure they produce, and the vibrations too are impressive :)
the reddit vinyl elitist are not going to be happy
I post my setup on r/vinyl and the main concern was "THE VIBRATIONS!!!"
Audiophiles: speakers and the turntable can’t be in the same room!!
I honestly don't understand the need to spend exorbitant amounts of money for the platter, turntable feet, dampening table, sound shield, etc when it all doesn't really matter at all. The amount of difference you 'might' get is so minuscule, it's absurd. You do not need to spend thousands of dollars to enjoy this hobby or get the 'audiophile' experience.
It's a diminishing return relationship between audio quality output and money spent. Most people wouldn't spend $9 per gallon of gas even if it promises to promises to improve gas mileage by 11%. Most will still go for the standard price gas. Some can afford it, but that doesn't give them any right to make anyone else feel bad about what they can afford.
I've practically spent $0 on my Acoustic Research turntable. Got it from Freecycle and didn't have to spend a fortune.
Most turntables are very much over engineered, I consider myself an"audiophile" and my LP120 was bought on sale for 230 bucks, and I heard Carly Simon's voice weaken once, never heard that before. Why capitalism is great, you want a 4,000 table help yourself, main thing is to enjoy, nothing quite like analog .
@@musicman8270 Yep, nothing is full of errors like analog. ;)
Yep,, lots of kick ass vintage decks around for a few bucks on eBay... get them back working and ya have a nice setup on the cheap... most of the reddit crowd seem to be overcompensating for something;)
It's so refreshing (and far too rare) to see someone not blindly accept whatever vague crap random strangers blurt out on the Internet and actually try to learn and understand the reasoning for it and do some tests to find the truth.
My only regret is that I have but one sub to give.
It should be noted that this video is accurate for the majority of music, the majority of entry-level turntables, and the majority of entry level speaker setups. If you have a high-end turntable with a very light tracking Force, and you have very large speakers with high bass response, and you listen to Hip Hop or other bass-heavy music at max volume, then it's probably pretty likely that your record will skip like crazy or you'll have some feedback issues.
DabneyCollins Yep, I have a P-mount cartridge with lighter than normal tracking force and with the addition of my HSU powered sub. I had to position my turntable on a separate table at least 8 feet away from my sub in order to keep the feedback from happening, and even then I took it a little bit further and created custom feet to eliminate as much contact space from the base to the table. Now I don’t have an issue. You can also get a noticeable hum that feeds through the power amp to the turntable if the components are too close. My turntable now sits on its own table like a spoiled brat but that’s what it takes to keep her happy. Btw, I like my music loud and clear!
My dad has his turntable on a steel shelf thats mounted to the solid brick wall of the house with 8 screws. No matter how loud the bass is, it doesn't vibrate or feed back at all. Maybe you should mount your turntable on a shelf on the wall.
Most 'hi end' turntables have a suspended sub-chassis, their suspension is generally tuned to below 5Hz so they are very difficult to excite through structure borne vibration from the speakers. Direct radiation will have some slight impact, Keep the lid closed. What makes them skip really bad - esp. if not damped - I mean bounce like a kangaroo - is if you have suspended wooden floors - as they also seem to be resonant at about 4 or 5Hz and many expensive tables will be bouncing uncontrollably when you walk over to change the record...Hence why they recommend a wall mounting shelf. EDIT: And then you could in all likelihood stick a big speaker next to it without any issue.
Solid plinth turntables rely on the material properties, mass and damping to minimise feedback, but they never can quite approach the isolation offered by a suspended deck - doesn't mean they don't sound as good, they often do. Lightweight plastic plinth models should be avoided - if you can, they are prone to sing along with the music as demonstrated here - inadvertently maybe. There are many other performance aspects too, that cheap plastic turntables don't do well.There are many solid old turntables about for less money.
Modifying old turntables to perform well is good fun, cheap and you can get the performance of a crazy priced chromed loony turntable for maybe 200 pounds. You just have to know what the strengths and weaknesses are of your chosen model. There are many, many great, yet undiscovered models out there - Just don't tell anyone. Keep it secret.
You don't have to be an audiofool to pursue quality reproduction, or worse tragically avoid the whole thing for fear of being labelled a fool. You can be scientific about it, and sensible and be a music lover who experiences amazing things made possible by the combined effort of many extraordinary engineers who devoted their time to improve the quality of reproduction. Some of the greatest engineers who ever lived made it possible. Alan Blumlein and Howard Armstrong both early pioneers and considered the finest minds of their time. Many great engineers have been involved since, making the industry what it is.Too many people to list, too many products of note to list.
There were no fools in this list.
Sticking a plastic turntable on top of a guitar amplifier and getting it to howlround, then pronouncing that the stylus (which can measure less than 0.1 micron and at other times accelerate to over 6000G) is unaffected as long as it isn't sitting on top of the speaker as if- by some magic - the energy is removed from the system - Is well in the realm of audiofool.
Any decent record player from the early 80´s playing through a proper amp/speakers set will produce low frequency feedback on high volume levels.
@@juslitor A well isolated turntable with a suspended subchassis tuned to below the audio band will be almost immune,
Even some transistors and ICs are sensitive to acoustic/vibration. Some early types especially. You could tap the case of an AC128 and drum along. Plastic cased transistors are less likely to be microphonic, but some are.
Valves of course can be, and some can be bad enough to feedback and howl-around. It's worth testing valves for microphonics in sensitive areas, a quick tap with a finger nail will tell you. Swapping a first stage noisy valve for a final stage less noisy one is a quick and free improvement - if you have a few of the same type.
Funny enough at a record shop I used to work at, we used to have these gigantic Bozak speakers from the 50s that might as well have been pieces of furniture. We ran amplifiers and turntables on top of those speakers and it did generate feedback sometimes that could be eliminated with the subsonic filter on some of the amps we used. I would think that having your speakers on the same surface as your turntable is not a best practice by any means but it would really depend on the surface you have everything on and the speakers you are using. Probably not much of an issue for these smaller bookshelf speakers you see these days.
My setup used to skip when I played hip hop records, and had both on the same surface. Putting them on the floor immediately made it not skip
I know arguing with audiophools is pointless but there is one test that would have officially killed the myth. Split the output and record it into Audacity with and without the speakers also thumping away. Then compare the recordings graphic profile and see if they look different.
Instead of Audacity you can also try Wavosaur 32/64-bit (Free) for the recordings. It has Analysis features and 3D graphical screens.Oh Yeah... Everybody have good 2019 and don't blow you're ears up with the firecrackers... LOL
Even better: Remove the drive belt from the turntable so the platter will not turn on its own. Put a record on the platter, place the stylus on the record. Pipe the output of the turntable into Audacity or something. Using a separate signal source like an MP3 player, play music through the speakers. Anything the stylus picks up will show up in Audacity without the record's music masking anything.
There will probably be something, but it will likely be very, very slight.
This was a criticism leveled at console stereos long ago - having the big speakers and powerful amps of the more lavish consoles in the same cabinet as the record player was seen by audiophiles as a mortal sin. Of course, we're talking about a breed of people who would argue over the merit of aluminum screws versus stainless steel screws holding the cartridge, and who look down their nose at anything that doesn't cost at least as much as a Buick.
Cool, make a video of that. Sounds great to try that! Please do that, preferably with setups that these audiophools may run. I'd be very interested in seeing the results.Arguing about results without testing (as you just suggested) is equally phoolish, don't you think?
@Lassi Kinnunen Well, I think it would matter to a bigger percentage of them than you may think. Point is: I don't think anyone has ever really done something like that... Just like Bob and Kim, it's nice to suggest to try that, but unless you do, your just making assumptions, just like the audiophiles. I like VWestlife for actually trying them out :) Rega turntables don't deal with vibrations very well, and something like the sort of affordable Nagaoka MP-110 (160 euros), which is really an audiophile grade cartridge (although many will say it's too cheap to be one). So doing the VWestlife tests, putting them side to side in Audacity would be a very good and pretty scientific way of testing that. It's obviously going to make one group unhappy (the side that was debunked), but hey. And you know in advance that either side that gets debunked is going to complain that it wasn't done properly, etcetera. Let's be honest, reading the reactions to this video, if it turns out the audiophiles WERE right after all, what do you think people here would say? I am a scientist (university, computer science and a separate grade in educational science), and I'd just be very interested in the results :) Oh, don't do the tests on the marble surface like Obama uses :)
If you can manage to perfectly line up both recordings, you can invert the phase of one, and if it's pretty much silent then there's not much of a difference between them.
Vinyl snobs do nothing but shoehorning people to have the most "perfect" audio experience, when most beginners just don't perceive the differences between various speaker arrangements and room acoustics.
Alas, the "vinyl experts" on Reddit is cancer. Hence why Record-o-logy urges us to avoid them. Period.
Unless you have real hearing problems, you'll hear the difference. Weather you can, or want to afford it is another question. But you're right, people running digital playback equipment are very different ;) Vinyl snobs don't give a crap about what you run, it's you who does...
HBC 101
Check out the Reddit post on r/vinyl dealing with this video.
"It's only a 100 dollar turntable" snobs
Louis Oh bleh, I hate those. There will always be people... I do agree that the AT LP-60 and similar ones like it are probably a better choice, sound wise. Funny thing, as VWestlife already showed. What do people think? That everybody has all the money in the world? Sorry.. Got a bit aggravated..
@@erwindewit4073 Yeah man, i agree with you. Not everyone is wealthy enough to own everything pristine and grand in this world, and "audio snobs" often think the opposite, which is rather illogical.
I like how the "could" and "may" of the past decades have become "will mess with the player".
To be fair, putting speakers and turntables on the same surface can cause various problems with resonance. The main issue is the speakers causing the surface they are on, and by extension, the turntable, to vibrate. This may not be an issue if you have a sturdy table and small speakers, but it may cause huge problems with feedback, especially with sustained low notes or a large speaker. I’m not discrediting vwestlife, but I would like to see a test with larger bookshelf speakers on a flimsier table.
@jackthegamer That whole turntable is a joke.
Mala's boiler room had that issue.
And the problem is easy enough to fix with a bunch of "audiophile quality" felt coasters.
I can remember years ago on the radio, when the presenter put on Runaround Sue, took off his headphones and turned the studio monitors up to enjoy the song, not realising he was creating the lowest pitched feedback. Combine this with the compression used in broadcasting, and the result was horrendous.
Probably he accidentally left his microphone on.
I love this and the video you did on the tracking weight of those crosley tone arms. Audiophiles are more concerned with gate keeping their community than enjoying music it seems
The part where you put the turntable on the speaker was hilarious!😂 I have my speakers right next to the turntable and never had a problem. Many years many setups. Keep up the good work and bust those myths! 👍🏼People really do say anything their mind makes up 🤥
My living room hifi has speakers in the same cabinet as the turntable, and it does cause problems but not for the turntable itself. What happens in my experience is that if there is too much bass (especially if I turn on the subwoofer next to the cabinet) the speakers start oscillating pretty hard with inaudible back and forth movement. Whether the oscillation actually hurts the speakers or not I don’t know but I’m not willing to test it.
Edit: my setup also has a low pass filter specifically to prevent this kind of feedback so even with preventative things like that in place it isn’t fool proof.
@@timotheatae That's quite improbable, 1 Hz. You'll need a pretty impressive sub to get to 15 Hz :) But they sure exist. I once heard very deep loud bass at the grocery store and decided to see where it came from. Well, that was 800 meters away, produced by a big hybrid sub playing the score of Jurassic Park :) COOL!
@Timothy Honiss The sub isn't specifically for the turntable, it's for the digital music we play. And while the subwoofer doesn't help with oscillation it still happens with it turned off. I don't think the problem is anything to do with components (NAD C558 with brand new Ortofon cartridge and Paradigm Prestige bookshelf speakers) it's just down to the flaws of the format and the design of the cabinet they're in.
@@thelonelytimbit A speaker / sub shouldn't physically move. I have a sub myself going from 19Hz and up. It never physically moves. Then there is something seriously wrong with your speaker.
Well, this might not be much of an issue for turntables that track above 2 grams, but can be reason for concern if you have a very light tracking cartridge. One of my setups is an Acoustic Research turntable with a Shure M91ED cartridge tracking at 0.86g, and if there is too much bass when the speakers are at the same surface as the turntable, it does cause the stylus to skip. My Collaro, on the other hand, is unaffected, tracking at 2 grams.
I think the main factor here is dampening. This is why there is no definite yes/no answer.
Try setting the Shure closer to its maximum recommended tracking force of 1.5 grams. Then it probably won't skip. Remember, when it comes to tracking force ranges, the engineers determine the maximum rating, because they actually know what works best for it, while the company's marketing department determines the minimum rating, because they know that people have been led to believe that a lighter tracking force is always better.
VWestlife at the same time, most "audiophile-grade" turntables seem to rely on the turntable feet to dampen unwanted vibrations. My AR turntable, much like my record changers, uses a spring-based suspension for dampening and isolating the chassis from unwanted resonance from the plinth.
When properly set up and dampened, having the speakers on the same surface as the turntable shouldn't cause any issues.
Thanks for introducing us to Jeremy Heiden's album Blue Wicked. I saw it on your videos about DCC, but here the songs sounded much more interesting, so I checked out the rest of the album. The music is fantastic, and it's cool how he sells this album in such a variety of formats!
Way back when I was still playing records, I got low frequency feedback but I really cranked it pretty loud. We had two 12" speakers on a carpeted floor.
Criticisms from some are are meritless and you just proved that again. Surprised no one has egged your car yet. :)
8:07 - That felt SO good! It's like: "Yeah! Smoke that you audiophile w*nkers! I'm gonna misbehave!"
lol, these people will find any little detail to criticize you for. Even if they have to make one up
I think he invented a new instrument there- the elephant trunk base machine
It soundds more like a fart.
Thank’s for inducing some common-sense to some viewers.
Like always, great video
I've only ever experienced feedback on a turntable. That was at silly high volumes though. No needle jumping with the speakers on the same table though.
Yup heard and read about this so many times. I have my speakers on the same surface and i really don't hear any flaws in the music when playing. The speakers usually have pads or small rubber pads/feet. Also the turntables have rubber feet and are mostly built really well so you would need big speakers with a really loud bass close to the turntable to have any effect on the turntable. You just need a stable and a decent surface for your turntable and the speakers.
I have the klipsch R-15PM and R-14PM speakers and i mostly listen on pretty high volumes. They are on ikea tables along with my turntables and i have not noticed any problems during the playback of the music. As long as i don't notice any problems during playback i won't move the speakers further away.
Imagine that the vibration has to travel all the way from the speaker to the cartridge/tonearm. Through the speakers shell,pads,surface/table,turntable feet, turntables construction all the way to the tonearm/cartridge. This is just my personal experience with these two speaker pairs and my turntables currently in use. Teac TN-100, Teac LP-R550.
All of my speakers are sitting on folded towels, even my wife was like WTF are you doing? I said I'm muffling the vibrations. I dunno, I just always have done that with bookshelf speakers.
If you've ever personally experienced unwanted acoustic feedback from a turntable and tried to eliminate it, you'll realize that every situation is different. No myth busted here.
But that feedback is going to be clearly audible -- not something you never noticed until people on the Internet told you about it!
I've noticed it. Others have noticed it...decades before the internet was invented. You make a good point and nobody should worry about it until it sticks out like a sore thumb (because it does).
Are you sure it's not a bad grounding point? or maybe you had bad stylus. Because i have never heard such bs in my life. Get the turn table, set everything up the way you like it, and the way it sounds best to you, instead of pleasing tons of audiophiles online.
update, on some speakers with the bass turned up, the lp120x can def get some nasty feedback on high volumes. but with the dust cover on, its mostly a non issue
I really enjoy your video's and your clear view on audio. happy new year from The Netherlands!
Last weekend I went to a friend's house to setup his brand-new AT-LP120-USB turntable, which he put in the middle of a wood shelf that has two compartments on its sides custom-made to fit his home stereo's speakers. It is impossible to turn the volume up while playing a record without getting low frequency hum in crescendo.
A wonderfully entertaining video on which to end the year. Cheers to you, vwestlife. You bring the common sense and the fun, and I always dig your work. Happy new year!
I picked up a Sony PS-LX250H on your recommendation (an amazingly simple and good quality beginners turntable btw), and its on the same surface as the speakers. Haven't had an issue yet, these things have pretty good rubber feet. Thanks for reminding me to get a copy of Blue Wicked though, but i want the MiniDisc :)
Depending on factors, I have experienced feedback/howling from turntables through speakers so although most setups wont experience any issues as demonstrated by Kevin, it can happen. If you don't have problems then don't worry about it, but the advice given by manufacturers to distance the player & speakers & avoiding the same shelf etc, is not baseless.
I wouldn't call this "busted" as this testing only applies to a limited set of equipment and conditions. Here's my little story about speaker/turntable relationship. When I was a kid in the 80s, my father was a diy/hifi enthusiast. He made big floor-standing speakers, amp, and custom turntable. It was setup in one room, with a turntable pretty far away from the speakers. With some music, vibrations from the speakers would propagate through the floor to the furniture the turntable was setup on, and cause t/t to skip despite the anti-vibration suspension. People mentioned in the comments that the effects might be higher for setups with low tracking force, so that might be the reason in my case. Anyway, after some time my father moved the turntable to another room, and that completely fixed all the issues.
Yeah i was catching hell in r/vinyl for having my turntable, receiver, and speakers on the same surface around christmas time.
Actually there's more to this problem, than placing the speakers on the same surface. Infact placing the speakers on the same surface doesn't have much (if anything at all) to do with it. If you experience a resonance or feedback problem, the cause is always the turntable. Some turntables are very sensitive, while others are not. If you had used another turntable you could have gotten a completely different result, but it would be because the turntable catch the vibrations out of the air, not because the speakers was on the same surface. If you have a sensitive turntable, you can get feedback, though the turntable is placed on a separate shelve, meters away from the speakers.
The problem can be caused by the plinth having a frequency of it's own in the low frequency area which pick up resonances. It can also be caused by a thin (full size) plastic plinth picking up everything (especially combined with low stylus weight). The tonearm can have the same problem. If the platter is small and the record therefore is hanging freely, the record itselves can pick up vibrations. Even the shell on some cartridges can have this issue, and the list continues. All logic tells us that resonance and vibrations will be a factor no matter what, but it's always some weakness on the turntables that makes it audible.
The problem with resonance, and feedback has existed as long as the existence of turntables, but in the good old days when they made real hifi equipment, the bigger amplifiers had subsonic filters which pretty much solved the problem, if you had a sensitive turntable. Being that vinyl is back, they really should consider fitting modern amps with subsonic filters.
So though you could have gotten another result with another turntable, you are absolutely right; The myth is busted. The problem do exist, but it's not caused by placing the speakers on the same surface. Infact some turntables can be placed on the floor right in front of large floorspeakers turned to max, and you won't experience any problems at all (For instance a Philips 777 can do that, believe it or not).
Happy New Year mate.
Your videos are amazing , thank you for debunking the elitest snobbery around vinyl
I have those same exact RCA/Radio Shack speakers. They sound surprisingly good.
Eeh, okay, let's say I haven't looked on forum like this yet and propably I can be happy 😂, what did you do is video explanation on topic that propably no one has tried yet? I haven't seen simular video like this one yet. Great idea to do that. I would like to see another one 😁
Yep, when your speakers bass drivers are approximately 4 inches in diameter it is indeed very unlikely the bass response will alter the turntable playback
On the Bose, the OEM PSU would be silent, you are correct. But on the topic of the video, I think we all know that enough vibration can affect the sound - from skipping to slight wavering or whatever, but the likelihood that it would be an issue in general listening is slim, and most turntables are isolated enough to dissipate any minute vibrations that could actually impact sound.
In reality, it’s mostly large vibrations, like someone running by or shifting the player while it’s active that’ll give you issues. Ideally, anything to minimize vibration is nice, but sometimes the effects of those audiophile “tips” are so negligible that it’s just pointless.
thanks for making this videos. a friend is getting into the vinyl hobbie and he weas starting to believe all the crap audiophiles says, but i showed him your channel and he realized how toxic, elitist and wrong can the audiophile community be. greetings from chile
I don't know why I always end up looking for the albums you use for your experiments.
I think this style of set up is fine for good budget systems and such. I did own a really cheap Technics turntable in the early 2000's that picked up horrible feedback from my system (Pioneer SX-828, and Pioneer CS-G304a speakers). So I still would say it will vary on things like your EQ preferences and what is in your set up. Even my current set up can cause feedback issues (Pioneer PL-707, Pioneer Elite VSX-50, Paradigm Monitor 11's, and the feedback mostly comes from a Paradigm PW-2200 12" sub on the other side of the room). Love your vids, and have a great 2019.
As a control group I'd suggest setting the speakers on a different surface and testing if there's any hearable difference between speakers on the same vs. on a different surface. Otherwise, nice and factual video with throughout testing!
Sigh, bass heavy songs can cause the arm to bounce, causing the record to skip. People do over react, but it is a thing.
VWestlife has shown in another video that heavy bass tracks can be prone to skipping regardless. Daft Punk Random Access Memories, if memory serves me correctly.
it was Homework@@GamerWho
And Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture vinyl release by Telarc is infamous for skipping too (though only the cannons part).
I’m saying, put a 10 inch subwoofer in a ported box an inch from your turntable and you will end up with a little feedback. Everything else is okay on the tile surface I use. Sometimes, a flimsy wood desk might cause issues, but speakers on the same surface as the turntable are usually not harmful.
Try this with 18 inch woofers, and you will realize why 1970s and 1980s amplifiers have subsonic filters. I have witnessed the woofers travelling full excursion at 10 to 15 Hz, even at moderate listening levels if the subsonic filter is shut off. The speakers are standing on the floor more than 10 feet away from the shelf the turntable is on. I would be willing to bet the bass response of both of the speakers you tested rolls off well above 60 Hz.
I grew up in the era of portable suitcase phonographs with built in speakers...this is such a crock of crap....thanks for debunking and keep the good stuff coming
Do you have this record on your other channel? It's wonderful.
I’ve seen this type of feedback happen with a turntable that was missing the rubber feet, the speakers were not on the same surface or even that close to the table. All it took was turn the volume up too high.
Clearly we can’t conclude anything with one test, different equipment has different resonance and all that...
Also it doesn’t need to cause feedback to be an issue. Vibrations introduced into the platter and tonearm can subtly affect sound, that’s obvious. Just because you can’t hear it on these particular crap speakers and turntable doesn’t prove anything.
As for all the unnoticeable things that might be affecting your system, there are far too many to spend time worrying about. Even whether your window curtains are open or closed will affect the sound quality in some way!
It's called "acoustic feedback" and occurs when the acoustic energy being emitted from a loudspeaker is sufficient to excite the stylus in contact with the record groove. It is usually a hum of a lower frequency that increases in loudness as the vibration from the speaker increases thus further exciting the stylus in a feedback loop. The solution is isolation of the turntable from the loudspeaker or having a turntable base that dampens external vibrations.
You are correct. We have lots of "experts" here, but little practical experience!!!!!!!
Years ago I had a pair of 8" 3-ways and one of them was right next to the turntable. And it caused what I would describe as muffling of the sound. When I moved the speaker away from the turntable the problem went away. I guess for the most part it depends on what you are using. Great videos!!
Heck, every turntable used to be manufactured in furniture that had speakers attached.
In your same setup, place the stylus on the record with the motor stopped (if possible). Play music from another source through the speakers. Record the signal coming from the turntable (after normal preamp and eq). Now play the record and record its signal. If the external signal is more than a few percent in amplitude of the signal that playing the record produces, it is quite possible there can be an audible effect.
I get your point, though. Unless the feedback is strong enough to cause oscillation, it is likely inaudible to most people.
I exist somewhere on the "low end" of the audiophile price range, capping my component price out at no more than $1000 for vinyl playback. I'm glad you're out here doing work to take down the audiophile claims that cheap is the bane of the hobby. As someone who tries to help my friends understand & enter vinyl music, being able to tell them that if they "really only want to test the waters, don't feel bad buying that Crosley" makes it more accessible. I want to share the hobby, not protect it.
Yet another reason I dislike the term "audiophile." Still my favorite claim from these people - "Records are the best format for lossless audio."
Love your turntable videos.... Keep em coming!
It all depends on how resonant the table surface is and damping ability of the turntable feet. I used to do vinyl ripping with technics sl1500 while watching a film with explosions, I can clearly hear rumble feedbacks at times later while listening to my needledrops with headphones. I can also feel vibrations on the table. So later I have to use foam to damp my speakers. Moreover, With the dust cover closed, it may make the resonance worse. Technics sl1200 on the other hand, it is less affected due to better damping feet. So one experiment does not mean there is no negative effect in all cases.
It'd be interesting to see what would happen if you put a splitter on the line out from the record player into both your PC sound card and your speakers. Record a song on your PC from the record player with the speakers off, then record it again with the speakers on loud, and then take a close visual compare of the waveforms between the two. Maybe even do a digital compare/diff between the two, but of course the speed will vary slightly between the two playbacks so that alone probably wouldn't be enough.
Interesting - SA155 is 1.8 WPC, yet can produce damaging sound levels. Proves you don't need big power for big sound.
Back on point - most good turntables have vibration isolation built in. And if the surface the equipment is on is reasonably stable - no worries.
The cartridge and tone arm do not have vibration "isolation built in", and that is where all of the physics of vinyl play back happen.
I've literally tried testing this at ear wateringly loud volumes with my Edifier R2000DB speakers.
Placed both speakers just 2 fingers away from the turntable, and tried blasting the music to see if there would be a difference. I did this on the most entry level turntable you can get, the LP60X. The results?
No difference lol. I used bass heavy records, music soundtracks, and your general pop records. Not a damn difference. Now of course, do i keep my speakers THAT close all the time? Of course not. But even in that worse case scenario, i dont hear a difference or notice any sort of distortion. For reference, i also listened to those records with headphones. So no, there really isn't any perceivable difference. Now of course, i'm sure some audiophile will tell me that i'm wrong and they can hear some sub frequency, but the bottom line is this.
If there is a difference, its so goddamn miniscule that you dont need to worry about it. Just dont let the speakers actually TOUCH the turntable, and you are good to go.
As an avid vinyl collector myself, over the past decade or so of collecting varoius albums and 45s - I will admit to putting speakers next to many of my turntable setups over the years, and have never had any issues with feedback whatsoever - whether said turntable was cheap and flimsy or very high end.
Once we organized a party with friends where a DJ only played vinyl. 2 speakers were on the floor and above a certain volume the turntables picked up that feedback.
It would be interesting to compare a line out recording from the turntable with the guitar amp next to it, and with it not. I suspect there might be some small differences in the waveform, but they’d be slight. And probably inaudible on non-headphones.
VWestlife, Have you ever done a video on replacing the AT-LP 120 anti skate spring? I'm ordering one, but don't really have experience taking these apart.
No, but this web page has the instructions I followed: imgur.com/a/J4tdA
Once upon a time, "Stereo Review" magazine held court on all things audio. On the subject of turntables and speakers, the word was: "Don't put the Bangster turntable on a Pulk speaker, lest you end up with "howl." So I never did that, keeping the Admint speakers far away from the Doppel turntable and never experienced "howl."
I have my speakers on the same surface as my turntable because I don't have space to have it elsewhere. And my records play fine.
The real reason to not put speakers near your turntable is because of possible acoustic feedback. Your turntable is actually a microphone in a way. In fact, if you put the stylus on a record with the motor stopped and talk or play an instrument near it, you'll here the sound come out your speaker. The record acts as the microphone diaphragm and the cartridge is its coil. Turntables are shock isolated for this reason but some are better isolated than others. This is why you can get away with putting speakers near a well isolated TT without feedback. And, if it sounds OK to you having them on the same surface, it's not doing any harm to the TT or cartridge or record. That's my professional opinion.
Never had an issue with my speakers being on the same surface as my turntable. Back in the day we sat the turntable on top of the receiver. I am old school and we are talking way back in the mid seventies.
Wow. When I built my Hi-Fi system in this past month I totally upgraded from the bookshelf speakers hours originally going to get to floor standing speakers because that was the only way, with my room setup, that I could have them not be on the same surface (actually, I could use stands but I decided that if I was going to do that anyway I might as well get floor standing speakers). I'm glad I did though, I was able to get more separation and have the sound fill more of the room.
I ran a mobile disco for many years (here in the UK) & only had problems with the stylus jumping if the speakers were on the same temporary staging as the tables with the equipment on. Under those circumstances I had to put the speakers on the floor of the hall, rather than the temporary staging. Halls with built in stages were never a snag. I was running 400W RMS per channel stereo as an absolute max. BSR single play manual decks with Stanton 500 cartridges, set to 4g tracking pressure. I did this from 1980 to 2000.
My friend was adamant about this speakers and turntable on different levels things. When I finally decided to upgrade my speakers I got some polk tower speakers, which went on the floor, instead of my logitech speakers which were on either side of it. He tried to use this as proof it was the superior set up because it sounded better. Ya know, not the fact I upgraded from a $50 speaker set to a larger $200 speaker set.
If the stylus is picking up any vibration from the speakers all it's going to do is maybe introduce a bit of reverb or delay into the output, nothing that could cause any damage to the system. You'd have to have really big speakers or a subwoofer sitting near the turntable to have any effect, and it would depend on the surface the system was sitting on - a light plastic or metal surface is going to transmit vibration far easier than a heavy wood surface. And any decent turntable is going to have proper rubber feet or other vibration dampening.
Time to stay away from audiophools for a few days...
vinyl sounds "better than CDs" ?
@@umajunkcollector i think it depends on the system and studio recording of the record or CD. I found CBS records and CD albums sound like crap compared to Warner Bros. media, but if I play a CBS record and compare it to a CD the CD sound is better on my end. I prefer vinyl for the sound but mp3 is more easier to store and no complaints because I no audiofool lol.
I actually believe the saying to an extent. I've had a similar experience before with powered speakers that have a strong bass woofer, that approaching subwoofer territory. When they play an ambient bass hum from from the song, the song entirely starts humming even louder. It was the stylus picking up the vibrations from the table due to the speakers. I placed the speakers on the floor, then it disappeared.
It also boils down to the table material. If the table is solid, like hardwood or stone, you will not experience this even if the subwoofer is beside the turntable. So don't worry if you're using small 1 way 30w speakers beside your turntable on a solid table. It will not affect the stylus at all.
This is a non issue mostly for bookshelf size speakers. Even so, they make tons of different shock absorbers stands for speakers which completely eliminates this issue, unless you have giant concert speakers cranked at full volume, which will make your room shake anyway
Thank you VWestlife. I understand your point. Cool to see people testing the concepts by themselves, this is a way to learn something.
I want to collaborate to the discussion with this words: if you can't hear does not mean it doesn't exists.
Someone in this discussion already pointed to resonance. VWestlife showed (forced) feedback. Feedback is for sure the worst case scenario that anyone could note. I'm not audiophile. I'm just a music producer. I follow by ears to make decisions and that's one of the reasons my productions sounds like me. So I can say that if I can't hear does mean it's not important, even when I know that could be something there that I can't hear but someone else can.
Back to the speakers position. I remember many cases of people using expensive home theater audio system with 6 or more speakers placed in the same position next to the amplifier. Why? This is the easiest (lazy) way to set up.
Of course resonance exists. Everything has a resonance frequency. But my point is, if it's not negative affecting the audio quality in any way that you can hear, then it's not a problem.
It can be, put a 12" subwoofer right under a turntable and see how things go. But small speakers are fine especially if the surface is something hard. I had a subwoofer feedback one time from several feet away through a very thick media center, and nothing besides putting the sub somewhere else seemed to do any good.
Try this with a subwoofer. I think it is possible to some extent to have enough vibration to cause some of this feedback. I had this issue with a Paradigm subwoofer I had fixed and was testing for a customer. I played a record on an LP60 and it caused a slight low rumble to get picked up by the stylus, but the subwoofer was on a tile counter (with wood under the tiles) right next to the turntable. It is still so hard to cause this that I am not sure why any audiophile would ever even mention it.
The pickup or cartridge on the tonearm is like a pickup on a guitar. It can act as sort of a microphone and capture extraneous noises like tapping on the turntable. This is the reason most people are against having speakers too close to the turntable. I personally would not get any enjoyment from trying to criticize someone who feels otherwise. Let them like whatever they like. I play electric guitar and collect records too. Playing through a loud amp with your guitar closer to the speaker will feedback. Just hit some power chords or any note and just hold it. It sounds amazing. Hendrix probably was one of the 1st to exaggerate the effect. You could theoretically give the guitar infinite sustain doing it. Playing farther away from the amp will give a more polished and controlled sound.
Okay, when you put the turntable on the guitar amp, it reminded me of a friend/coworker who takes sites like reddit a little bit too seriously (he's not a fan of people who actually go about disproving vinyl mythology in the simplest ways possible, I really need to get video of him going on about it). Dead serious, he'll go about disproving these things without even having any real audience (outside of myself and another friend) and it's hilariously counterintuitive (bordering on stupid and/or insane).
I was always under the impression that the vibration from the speakers would cause the tonearm to skip, not specifically the stylus. But I'm man enough to admit that I was wrong. Mostly though, I always avoided having the speakers that close together because I wanted a wider soundstage.
I had one experience in a tiny night club setting where either the sub amps or the mixer's bass eq was turned up too high, and when one particular bass heavy song was played it caused some low frequency feedback throughout the track. It wasn't until we played back the recording of that night's session that we heard it, and at first the DJ couldn't quite figure what caused it. I suppose it was a combination of the loud volume along with the acoustics of the room causing resonance. This was of course an extreme case, and not something that should be of concern in a more modest home setup.
Most turntables I’ve had, you can hear through the speakers when i Iightly tap my finger against the case. It doesn’t seem too far fetched that some bass heavy tracks could resonate to the stylus in some setups.
I've heard feedback from a turntable going through a powerful receiver in a small room. Turntable was separated from speakers. People back in the day had console stereos that had lots of bass with a turntable inside. It was fine. I'm thinking that the real issue may be that you may have unwanted vibrations on the cartridge that will get picked up not giving you an accurate representation of the recording. The bottom line is if it makes them happy, who cares? I got lots of enjoyment listening to my 3 in 1 stereo that I got 40 years ago. I wore it out, but that's what it's all about. It wasn't an audiophile piece, but I loved it.
Happy New Year for 2019 VWestlife. All the best.
Depends on various things. Bass and tracking force mostly - if your TT is heavy and well dampened and the stylus has a high tracking force (+3.5g) and there's little to no bass coming from the speakers it's not an issue.
But if you have the subwoofer right below/next to a turntable with a tracking force of 1.5g it'll definitely cause some jumping, especially with badly dampened and light TTs.
So, I do think there is something to this. In a nutshell, it’s why I stuffed the insides of my lovely (sarcasm) Crosley Cruiser Deluxes with fiberglass.
I've generally heard that it is a problem with subsonics like with subwoofers or woofers that can get down to around 20Hz or below. A newer turntable such as one with a phono amp inside the turntable might have a high pass filter that blocks out such low frequencies. I've never seen this issue on a regular set up, but I have heard of this. I personally would like to see this experiment done again using an older turntable without a preamp stage of its own. This might also have to be done using an older amplifier (with its own preamp of course). For a general set up, I don't see speakers being on the same surface as an issue. President Obama (from that picture) had his speakers pretty far apart anyway. That is recommended for good stereo separation as well. Speaker definitely should not be touching the turntable. Some turntables do have speakers in them, but I mean just next to them as they could be knocking on the case of the turntable since they are not apart of the turntable. Good turntables have suspension and shock reduction, but subsonics may still be an issue.
The center speaker, and the subwoofer of my home theater, and my turntable are in the same place. My records even skip.
Well, in my opinion, the only thing it affects is the sound quality, because the bass of the speakers cause feedback in the stylus. But it dosen't cause any harm to the turntable. That's why i have my turntable away from the speakers.
I'm sure audiophiles are watching this video with disgust hahaha
best sound from my turntable .. it was in another room with the amps .. and the speaker cables in the "disco" .. it was a party in my flat :-)
I have my Project turntable on the laminate flooring alongside my B&W 604s and never had a problem at high levels. The turntable has shock mounts to stop this anyhow, thats what its for. Always been a solid setup.