Universal Basic Income Debate featuring Jared Bernstein and Charles Murray
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- Опубліковано 31 жов 2017
- On October 19, the Adam Smith Society sponsored a debate at Dallas’s famed Old Parkland on the resolution, “A universal basic income is necessary in the age of automation.” The debate featured two of the most prominent voices on the idea of UBI: Charles Murray of the American Enterprise Institute and Jared Bernstein from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. Moderated by journalist Jared Lindzon, the debate addressed the potential merits and disadvantages of UBI, the future of work, and much more.
Debate starts at 15:19
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Thx
National hero
Holy shit lol, thank you
UBI is such a Wonderful idea and has been widely discussed lately!!!!
It's only a matter of time and may happen sooner than we think.
Martin Luther King Jr., Thomas Paine, Napoleon Hill, and Andrew Yang
talked about this and they were definitely on to something 100%.
A Universal Basic Income should have been implemented long ago.
This would create so many positive things for all people, and give them an individual purpose to think about what they want to do with their life, without being constantly depressed, better sleep, and leading to better overall health and give them a sense of security. People should not have to suffer, stress, and live like this. This is supposed to be a Great Country and a land of opportunity/creativity. Just imagine what an extra $1000 a month UBI can actually do for many people. People who have been through hell, are more grateful to actually know what to do with their money and spend it wisely on what matters most in their individual life. This planet is a prison and if we keep living like this, things will just keep getting worse. This inequality needs to stop. There is more to life than a 9-5, people can learn how to grow their own food and make compost, travel more, and not live their life by just working just a 9-5 for nothing and then just die. With a UBI many will find a purpose in their life, which will give meaning to their lives. Also because of automation and robots everso increasing, the definition of work needs to be redefined and there is more to this life!!! Many people will start their own businesses too. There is an amazing business opportunity that I would like to share, with unlimited earning potential. Be sure to check it out on my channel. Really Cool!!! For those of you really looking, this is the easiest business to build that you may have ever seen by just using a computer or phone, and the company does the shipping for you!!! Can't complain. Currently, we are available in the United States, Canada, England, Sweden, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, U.S Virgin Islands, Denmark, Italy, Germany, Norway, Spain, Finland, France, Portugal, and Iceland. We are an amazing company that is growing and we will expand to another 35+ countries within the next 4 years, Worldwide. ❤️Love, 🌞Light, ☮️Peace🌳 & 🌈Gratitude.🦋
As Mr. Murray pointed out, you were all born lucky. Of course the majority is going to go against giving freedom to those that don't have it. Perspective plays the pivot role in your decision making. Unless you've been on the streets, and through the ringer, you're really not going to know what it's like to live in a hell you want out of.
I know it's quite a "lefty" sentiment, but people do need to check their privilege, becasue often they don't even realise they have it. It's not just the super rich, but the middle class can be incredibly ignorant. They read their papers about the scroungers and the lazy unemployed, and they look at their life with their mortgage and home and think "Well, if I can do it then anyone can".
Except we are not all the same. We all have different physical AND mental makeups, and our situations may be different. I was born into middle class comfort. Both parents worked, we had 2 cars, and there was always food and heat. I just took it for granted that people might have less and were struggling.
Why didn't they get a better job? Why didn't they do better in school? The blame always lay with them. That was until the day I found out I had a different learning method than everyone else and was effectively left behind in education. I was ok though becasue even as an adult I still had a middle class family to fall back on in hard times, but I never forgot that feeling of being left behind for something that was not my fault.
A Basic Income will be the single greatest step forward in civilised human society since the UK introduced nationalised healthcare. It will enable people to say "no" to exploitative jobs and give them the freedom of time to help their fellow human beings instead of just existing in a dead end job rut - the wages from which will be gobbled up every month by basic needs which should already be covered in a civilised 21st century society where no-one gets left behind, and where food and shelter are not seen as luxuries that need to be "earned".
Renounced Equation I’ve lived on the street for 2 years, this idea that homeless people live in a hell that they want out of is nothing but consumerist propaganda. It’s designed to keep you scared enough that you keep working hard and don’t ask any questions.
@@Syklonus "A Basic Income will be the single greatest step forward in civilised human society since the UK introduced nationalised healthcare."
Disagree, if you give a ubi at lower than what you need to survive then you still need to work, if its too high then you discourage work reducing amount of goods and services available in relation to amount of money in circulation and causing inflation. If you still need to work then that means you don't have the ability to say no to exploitative labor, means you still need to work McD jobs, Amazon, Walmart jobs. A Federal jobs guarantee gives people leverage by eliminating unemployment, giving a job to anyone who wants one doing public sector work at a living wage plus benefits. This makes employers have to treat employees better, provide better pay, benefits. Fjg also serves to meet peoples and communities basic needs helping to control and contain some of the costs that people have by giving those services to other people in community for free. Services like a public option for elder and child care, building community parks, planting trees and community gardens.
The government has never helped anyone without harming someone else. It should not be in the business of coercing people to help others.
Henry Gustav do you think anyone would work a crappy job ever again if someone was offering a living wage to plant gardens? My guess is a big hell no. Not to say that is such a bad thing, just something that comes with major downsides.
The moderator messed up at the end. He said the con side won, but they dropped five percent while the pro side gained 7 percent. I'm quite surprised the victory wasn't more dramatic.
Andrew Yang 2020
Yang 2020 ezclap
7 minutes into the video and still nothing about universal basic income.
No one talked about energy. Once the cost of energy becomes either free or negligible the need for work will be greatly reduced
Solar and wind is already cheaper then oil & gas
gespilk but I live in Europe/spain and education is very cheap. as low as 1000$ a year at universities. And healthcare is also free, its in the spanish constitution. I always go to the doctor and get treated and examined for free, no debt or artifical medical debt like in the US. There is also options for private medical hospitals if you so want it.SO why cant u just have free medical care and UBI? Rent is also cheap here, I lived in the US so I can compare alot of things different. The US really does suffer alot from a bunch of artificially made debts. In the US there is segregation between rich and poor neighborhoods everywhere. Alot of places areas and neighborhoods are divided by economic class. The cities in the entire USA suffer from gentrification SO badly , there is so Much class economic segregation over there, thats also why u probably have so much crime. Howcome in Europe there really isnt? I live in Madrid and even poor people and average people can afford to live in the beautiful peaceful city center, Unlike compared in the US where san francisco and new york for example , its only accesable to rich people and white collor workers and people who make alot of money and its extremely gentrified. Europe seems to be much more community oriented , social and peaceful compared to the USA.
gespilk nope oil/gas has massive cost to extract and transport . Cost to transport electrons is nil and theres almost no maintenance to solar panels
gespilk You're just choosing to ignore some of the external costs of oil while trying to take into account every single one for solar
We're not there yet, but Jeremy Rifkin has some compelling arguments for that idea (as well as the potential challenges to it) in his book "The Zero Marginal Cost Society"
I'm interested in the first few points shared in this debate. It seems that Dr. Bernstein and Dr. Murray couldn't agree on the current impact of job displacement - Dr. Murray indicated that his argument only applies to a vague future threat which can't be measured (since it happens in the future), while Dr. Bernstein seemed to indicate that he doesn't think that there's a current problem with job displacement, only a potential future one (which he doesn't believe will occur).
The fact is unemployment is very low, and productivity is stagnant when measured against total hours worked (which seems to be a point in Dr. Bernstein's favor). But the concept of work should be more fully analyzed. If you consider the quality of work as well, you'll see there is indeed a serious problem playing out right now. Wage growth is flat or negative, and has been for quite a while. One potential explanation is that automation has begun displacing jobs in the medium-wage sectors, causing people to be displaced into lower-wage ones. Most measures of productivity would show a higher level of productivity per hour in those medium-wage sectors than lower-wage sectors. Add in the high-wage scale jobs that come from people taking care of the machines and you're likely close to accounting for flat productivity.
I'm interested in politicians and the public talking about quality of work as well as quantity. If I had been 30 years old in the 1950s, many of my friends would likely be working in real jobs, while today most of my friends are in low-value-added jobs. I'm not suggesting that low unemployment is bad, but if you are reducing the unemployment rate at the cost of employment quality you're punting on the actual problem. I think that's a serious oversight on the part of many of the people saying automation is a completely benign influence on human employment.
With democracy dollars, we'd ALL be doing OUR politics OURSELVES.
Good point
This would be ideal for Homesteaders and those who choose to form Collectives.
With democracy dollars, the whole nation would be the collective. Think of the corruption and beurocracy we'd get rid of while doing OUR politics OURSELVES.
@sapphireblue222 Absolutely.
@@jeffxanders3990 a
Debate actually starts at 15:21
Speeches like this will never get ubi in effect
Vote YANG 2020
Don't blind vote. Because Ubi policy before has been tried, we should check before Ubi policy and people's life in before Ubi system
@@howardlitson9796 Negative. If we can't get democracy dollars to put US in charge of OUR politics, the two party system will destroy us.
Andrew Yang will never be ALLOWED to be in charge. We have to put him there ourselves. OUR politics is OUR JOB.
With democracy dollars, we OURSELVES will eliminate corruption AND the massive beurocracy.
There are good objections to UBI, but Bernstein didn't bring up a single one. He is arguing entirely from what ought to be true, rather than what is. The universality of the UBI is precisely what would make it the only ethical government program. At this moment (one in which I haven't slept in two days) I say implement Murray's plan even if there is no automation crisis.
Above, I have offered detailed comments on what must be done if the UBI is to reduce income and wealth inequality.
@Edward Dodson,
"Above"? Where? I, a student of UBI politics, am curious.
brilliant debate.
Abraham Maslow's hierarchy is important to follow. The basic needs are food, shelter and water this apply to everyone. It is needed for our existence. There should be more collaboration from several communities in order to hear the voice of the people.
Would anyone recommend interesting further reading in this topic? Specially concerning the implementation steps as discussed by Murray, I still have many doubts on how we can do that. Cheers
Check out the war on normal people by Andrew Yang
2023 and it’s scary how quickly we are advancing in the direction Mr Murray suggested. He lost the debate based on the audience but won based on the “time did tell” criteria
Notice that Jared Bernstein is to the social sector what laffer is to the "laffer curve", Mr. Bernstein had in a publication dated Nov 30, 1999, solved an equation with Heidi Hartmann ,that no one had solved before him:
The Low-Wage Labor Market: Challenges and Opportunities for Economic Self-Sufficiency. Defining and Characterizing the Low-Wage Labor Market. Once again, thank you America for providing us with such talents.
" A dollar going to someone who does not need it......."
You are a hopeless absolutist.
You can't forecast what someone will do with their excess money.
They might start businesses that hire other - less cognitive people.
They might even decide to give their excess to their favorite charity.
That's the problem - we all think we know who is deserving and undeserving, and we will not think twice about punishing those who are undeserving. The wealth of a nation is collective. It is generated by public labour and transferred to private hands instead of being equally redistributed to the public as a social dividend.
You called him an absolutist while citing the exact opposite of the absolute spectrum. I am not trying to insult you, but that is “the pot calling the kettle black.”
@@Syklonus
Wealth is not created by public labor. It is created by the labor of individuals.
@@mahogs9
He was absolute in his belief. I simply pointed out that reality may not match his beliefs.
Your catastrophic health plan at 3k explain as that may not work for senior citizens who need more coverage for eye care hearing aids
etc.this coverage would not be enough . Ins. co must go they rip people off.
And it also offers people to be more accountable and holding others accountable for their poor choices you can start ignoring the pan handlers
Mr Murray's UBI is better than Andrew Yang's since it involves the healthcare aspect and is paid for by negating the current services. I'm not all in on the UBI, but open to listen.
Misinformed
Admits social security is working, 2 seconds later said we shouldn't give money to anyone who doesn't need it.
Jared Bernstein didn't really listen and reply to Charles directly at all. He had a few points written down on a sheet of paper and didn't engage in constructive discussion. Well done Charles for thinking critically and putting up with an opponent who ignored you
Jerod seems to just ignore the facts about job loss and gives no citations to show his opposition to UBI. He uses his citing to prove points that are not central to the cons.
How else could he mount substantive arguments?
You add in that a general purpose artificial intelligence could displace almost any job with time and that inflation proof cryptocurrencies will likely be dominant in the future and this starts to make more sense.
I support form of UBI if it would require some form of commitment from recipients to contributing to the community either through direct labor, volunteering, or even training others in a skill . There is also cooking to provide meals to homeless and/or hungry children ,vets, people on the street. What if the UBI has incentives for any work done for a public/private employer (sponsored employers) ? Or perhaps grocery certificates for volunteering (food budget is the hardest for my family ) . How about readdressing the high taxes for people not benefitting from buying prior to Prop 13? All these could improve struggling families lives!
perhaps the hard part would be to figure out how much to give people, enough for rent or morgage repayments food etc. if it dosnt meet the basics then its not a basic income.
What is the point of 15 min of introduction? So tedious.
Lotta exciting stuff happening these days.
If singularity happens i think we can use the AI to come up with the best way to structure society. That is, if computers take enough jobs for it to become problematic they will also be able to reorgansie how we should allocate wealth between us.
I think what might happen is people will not have to work for money anymore. i think the nature of greedy people may keep this from happening but its possible humans will no longer do work we don't want to do, that will be up to the robots. at that point life will no longer be centered around serving an employer to make a living. our whole economic system would have to restrucure. if there is no need for work anymore than everyone can have wealth because work is not required to create it anymore.
right now we pay a price for our mcdonalds cheeseburger to make it fair for the people who put in time and effort to make it. If the cheeseburgers are making themselves with absolutely minimal or ZERO human effort needed... then who do we pay? robots? no... at that point the cost of everything can be reduced to near nothing.
then wealth loses its meaning. people don't dedicate their entire life to how much wealth i can accumalte which only breeds greed cuz all you think about is what you can do for your own wealth and success. we will transcend into a new era where we focus on humanity. like how can we save earth, finding other life on other planets, space travel, space mining, biological engineering, new forms of energy, etc.
1:12 She brings up a good point. Murray answered the question, he wished she asked. Not the question she asked.
How did this whole debate not focus on inflation?
They are not creating more money simply redistributing it
Because its irrelevant
I dont know if this basic income is GOING to be in Winnipeg... this fall... its a small city
Let's hope NEVER anywhere!
I hope Jared Bernstein is looking at this now and telling himself. "I was wrong."
Wow this aged well 😂
Sharpin a pinch fork WHAT... that says something... bad..
The pro plan presented is a complex matter which is different from other presentations of Universal Basic Income. All this debate covered was pro or con regarding this single plan.
In a market system you get paid for your value added. You don’t need to lose your job for your value added and therefore wages or hours to be reduced.
I wonder what would happen if like the Midas touch, wealth ( money) lost its meaning .
Any thoughts on just stopping the automation crap? everything is working out ok now just leave things alone
Exactly. Stop innovation. Let other countries evolve and advance instead. Then later we can beg them for the things they have. I like your style
I have a feeling that UBI is necessary to restore the dignity of human and dignity of work. Intelligent machines are going to replace the white color jobs but they can't not produce an equal or more number of white color jobs, because reducing human efforts of brain and muscles is what machines stand for. Then, each human is entitled to the benefits of machines. Secondly, it has been constantly stated that Universal payments may go to the affluent persons; let it be so, because universal payments create a sense of community belongingness and security, which is more valuable. The effect of UBI is going to be a higher cost human labour, that should be seen as a positive effect where compensation to a CEO is astronomically high in comparison to a blue color employee; and the higher cost of labour shall provide further push to the employment of intelligent machines, which means more leisure and more creativity in humans. UBI ensures that no human shall be exploited by their basic needs, which is a very valuable term for women and weaker sections, and also that humans will undertake work for the satisfaction of the higher needs. In a society providing UBI, even a labourer may choose to work to get back sufficient to own a favourite car or house in an elite place.
I don’t like Charles plan. For a senior who is living on the margins can’t benefit from this plan.
Yup. Murray's plan wouldn't be good for you. However, Andrew Yang's plan will 100% help you.
It has to be universal everyone gets it at least up to double the poverty rate or no one gets it. As there would be no incentive to work.
David Stanley where I live, old one bedroom apartment, 13,000 a yr doesn’t even pay my rent. So I guess I’d keep working as many other people would . but if you stop working and start studying how to get us out of this mess, I’d be happy you did it :)
13,000 $ is more than enough to make do for low wage people
So for 2 people that would become 26000 a year
Personally I can't see how people can live on less than 70,000 $ but that is me.
Your comment makes zero sense.
I like his UBI idea but I am still a bit skeptical about the massive displacement of jobs he speaks about.
Hey Joanne, there is a great book by Andrew Yang, an expert in entrepreneurship, I'm reading right now called The War On Normal People. It goes into great detail about displacement with numbers to back it up. Yang's friends and colleagues in tech who developing automation are warning about massive displacement of workers. He has seen this all over the country and the problem is growing. Many people are not included in unemployment statistics because they have given up looking for work so they aren't included in unemployment statistics. Most people don't have the skill or education to fulfill tech jobs, and companies will simply need far less employees than they once did. In the past, it was more isolated to specific industries but now it will be system wide, affecting our biggest industries that currently employ people. We are talking about roughly 50% of jobs become automated.
It would be paid for by value added tax (10%) on the products produced by automation. It isn't communism or socialism because the private citizens (or corporations owned by citizens) would still own, run, and create the businesses. If anything, it would be pro-capitalism because it would give consumers more purchasing power and individuals capital to focus on things like entrepreneurship and investment.
Robots (ai) will soon do everything better and they don't need breaks or food from call centers to surgeons
It seems Jared doesn't know much about software and AI and how fast it's developing, and both of them are basing their arguments on idealism. I agree with Charles more here though.
Intelligent Extra Terestrials exist. What now? Where's the "earth chronicles"??
UBI will be paid in digital currency and people will have to "voluntarily" provide digital ID to use it.
Focus on eminent threat: Solaris, Sol, Sun, Star.
per favore , trasmettete in Lingua Italiana . grazie
I think it's a good starting point into an interesting discussion, but UBI ultimately will cause massive runaway inflation. A better system, which does not allocate massive amounts of resources to people who do not need them, would be a simple income floor or negative income tax below a certain threshold pinned to inflation.
What about just for healthcare and dental or something
Except UBI is money continuing to cycle through the system. It's not new money being made. So the inflation isn't nearly what people think it'd be.
So Ubi causes inflation by circulating money in the system not printing new money? But new jobs that circulate money in the system not printing new money does not? Is there a bias here? Help me understand your logic.
Universal basic income (U.B.I) is an in-evitable policy-and-programme that needs to be initiated-and-implemented in each-and-every political-legal-economic establishment in the english/british/anglo-saxon-celtic/five-eye/anglospheric world if you want to forestall en-masse physical-violence by the demobilised lower segment's/strata's of society
Deter-or-defer avoid-and-avert
In America, BRIs time has come. Lack of jobs, bleak predictions for job growth/automation revolution, and income stagnation for low/middle income the last 30 years, all create an untenable solution. Consider the blunt truth that the above situation applies to about 50-60% of the population in the United States. We will have social unrest on a level that is unimaginable if this problem is not solved by radical means.
TtokkiCC in america...worldwide it will be utter hell.
I’m in favor of universal basic resource dispersion. Under the current banking system the idea of cash as an allowance is laughable. First centralized banking must be utterly destroyed- and their proponents along with it. Then a socialized , resource and tokenized economy based upon social credit scores and population demographics should be implemented. This is the future of a fair democratic republic. Anything less than this is at best oligarchy.
Artificial intelligence is making this a must if
We want a stable economy.
The fact is in ten years
90 percent of workers
Will be unemployed.
While increasing productivity.
A small hand of people
At the top will control the Artificial intelligent means of production.
All new jobs will go to
Artificial intelligence.
A basic universal income
Is not even an option.
It is a necessity.
Because we are a market economy and every market economy requires three things.
Buyers Producer's and a
Commen unit of exchange aka money.
In the past wages from employers fuels Buyers ability to buy.
Artificial intelligence means 90% of humans will not be paid wages ever.
But people are the Buyers in a market economy and if 90%
Of humans will never again earn wages.
Buyers humans need money to buy and the only source of money is the federal government.
This is a debate over what kind of massive welfare program the futur needs. They are both arguing for a giant welfare state. Unbelievably I find myself agreeeing with the UBI side, but it's only because of the trade off he Is proposing. He proposed to trade off a giant welfare state in exchange for a far more pro choice welfare state. For that reason alone I would take that trade because it's actually a massive reduction in overall welfare programs. In reality his UBI would be less redistributionist when you think about all the people using hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in health care, getting instead $13,000 a year and that's it. Single moms getting $60,000 a year in benefits, now get $13,000 a year cash and that's it! And then I get $13,000 a year and use it to supplement my rental income. Sounds great! I would get a job too but knowing that the tax rates in the higher brackets would have to be astronomical to pay for this, I would just avoid working, collect rental income, collect UBI, find ways to make money under the table, and avoid paying gigantic amounts of tax.
I will also add, that giving people cash instead of housing and food and health care would result in a lot of people just buying drugs etc. Those people need to be left to die. His concept is everyone is an agent of their own life and responsible for their decisions. The people who refuse to be responsible won't survive and rightfully deserve to die. His vision of UBI is not a step closer to a welfare state, it's a step closer to anarchy.
What? That last part is assuming the amount you'd be taxed at a higher income bracket would not result in making significantly more money than avoiding work and finding money under the table. That's ridiculous. You're also completely disregarding the fact that not everyone's socio-economic circumstance is favourable enough to let them avoid pressures towards degenerative lifestyles. The idea that disaffected people more prone to the ills of poverty 'rightfully deserve to die' for their 'irresponsibility' is as sociopathic as it gets.
hold on.... work reward is must without that entire humanity will become laid back and would not like to do anything... all hard work we see is direct result of efforts which got rewarded in terms of either monetary prosperity with accolades, the question here is how to raise the standard of those pay to efforts and that is what has been lacking very badly and then system by earlier economists just went on devising systems which were and are not that people friendly economic equality of decent living for everybody is must for the work that human beings put in to drive the world forward. Murray argument is fine first to get rid of so called social welfare offices and their paper work going nowhere with all its nonsensical regulations ... but it still doesn't solve whether you are giving affordable housing or medical care or commuting services where public commute is still not that great like big cities NY or others.... the most important fact is to create housing for economic brackets and take care of medical situation...what kind of universal insurance plan or pay as and when required and to what pay scale , affordable housing medical has such long lines of waiting that you will be in grave till your turn comes is this fair? no.... and if you do not have private insurances your govt insurance doesn't give anything for some condition so how does that gets resolves.... computer education depends on what you are doing simple office work or writing programs which is learned technique anybody can learn that. help only to those who are not in high bracket of income and utilities are rising way beyond and one doesn't know what he means that if man earns more and his wife earns less all they need is to be asked what is their equation at home it is "his money" 'her money' scale and there is no "our money" life... then it makes sense then to give a woman married to miser and how come job markets are not organised? how come there is no data whom to match whom where the first and foremost work of any government's social welfare offices a task done with such disinterest and no results at least something is relevant is being discussed.
Malvinder kaur
: "... work reward is must without that entire humanity will become laid back and would not like to do anything..."
Speak for yourself. And do not just cherry pick a few examples of mentally disturbed unfortunates for a more general proof.
I have been "striving" to achieve a break-even income for over 40 years, and my family suffered the consequences of my chronic state of stress
As humans are progressing through time we are changing the definition of work and are expanding our conscience and growing spiritually. Claiming that humans require reward for work which in our world means money is an old perspective and idea thats changing as we are expanding our conscience and spiritually growing. Through universal basic income people will go back to their original nature which is to pursue things not for money but rather for spiritual reward. Many artist in the past kept drawing while never getting money or any type of reward and the reason was because their motive was a spiritual feeling that forced them to keep going forward and pursue all the infinite passions and keep learning which is what makes humans beautiful. The pursuit of money made us pursue college not for learning but for gaining more money which shows that if we are no longer slaves for money we can go back to our original god given nature to pursue for genuine desire to know,create, and grow,and show and make other people happy. This is my opinion and I could be wrong and I would love to hear your perspective and opinion in hopes of learning.
@@Happys_Art: "This is my opinion and I could be wrong and I would love to hear your perspective and opinion in hopes of learning."
Thanks for this thoughtful comment.
May I invite you to have a conversation at the bulletin board of our meetup? www.meetup.com/good-world/messages/boards/forum/34618074 (the clanky messaging facility here is not conducive to in-depth conversation. )
Two people debating about HOW to enslave people. One proposes enslavement by drugging (murray's free money for all) and another proposes enslavement by force (bernstien's government / bureaucrats knows best what to do about your money). There isnt anyone arguing AGAINST enslavement!
Marutan Ray you're a genius my friend how did you get to that conclusion?
GESARA/NESARA 💕
A dollar of food stamp is not worth a dollar. A dollar of food stamp is worth anywhere from 30-70% of a real dollar. And it's against the programs rules for anyway to sell their food stamps. 54:41
I'm pretty pissed that Murray wants to force people to team up, as though it's possible to require finding a trustworthy partner, as an "incentive", and that having a bank account is a requirement when that's something which is beyond those who need a UBI most, and again, not under their control.
Yes. This is a bad argument for ubi
50percent of the poorest peoples problems could be solved by enough affordable housing. Anywhere from free, if unemployable, and rise from there based on income.
Next any adult that is an addict, especially long term, should have tubes tied, and vasectomys for men.
If both persons are addicts, they need to be put in a community for addicts, and given proper support, nutrition, while learning a skill, and someone watching out for their kids if they have them.
If one parent is an addict, same thing, put in a community, and housed and treated like humans, provided with whatever is needed to lift them out of poverty, while educating and protecting their kids. But no more kids. And dont give them the money, give them good food, health care, housing, and education.
At least half of them will overcome. The ones that cant, they can stay, and do whatever work they are capable of, to upkeep the community and let them have their drugs, if thats what they prefer.
The latter, get just basic care, to live. No xtras. One fork, one spoon, one set of clothes. One house phone for emergency, basic tv. Etc.
They can choose that life of drugs, or choose to do different. But no more kids. No car, none of the niceties if they stay dependent on the government.
it's 2019 Andrew Yang is running on a UBI ticket for 2020 Presidential election and Bernie Sanders is kick it's ass and I don't think he has a very big chance to win...
I think the best way to put it - UBI would be a terrible system now, better than the alternatives if things really do tank in the employment market.
People will still make bad choices and will rack up a bunch of debt. Then what??? Will be interesting to get a job offer for 63k a year but then asking to make 59k instead. Lol. If this were to ever be a thing, all people should get the same amount. Should make no difference how much u make.
Tim Greenstein
: "People will still make bad choices and will rack up a bunch of debt..."
Speak for yourself or, at least say *"some* people..."
So, once someone has pissed away their $13000.00 on drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc, etc, etc. Then what? They will still need to eat, need a roof over their heads, medical care, etc., etc., etc. Out of human compassion we will then give them even more money in the form of food stamps, housing, medical care, etc., etc., etc.
we won't have any programs so that person who wasted his free money just dies. Epic lol.
Would *you*, WS, piss away your $13,000.00 on drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc, etc, etc?
At that point, a person knows that the machine has change the fundamentals of work..of existence. They will be smart with money
Exactly. What happens when EVERYONE pisses away their ubi? People who get money 100% do this. Trust me. Let me quote someone. "What happens when EVERYONE pisses away their ubi? People who get money 100% do this." What else could I say?
But in europe, healthcare assistance is free, so medicare or whatever and what not that they are debating about is not a thing. I always go to the doctor for free and get treated in spain
healthcare is not free anywhere. Like anywhere else, it is a matter of how the costs are spread out.. In Spain we can all confidently visit our doctors without charge - pay the minimum for medicines and get hospital treatment for free. you call it Communism, Yeah, I know, Americans can be kind of stupid about this, they don’t seem to be able to understand that taxpayer funded primary and secondary schools, transportation infrastructure, water and sewage, police, fire fighters, legal system, these are all effectively socialist things provided for the public good by taxation, and everybody seems to be pretty happy about them. Remember, America pays more for the military then the next 10 countries combined with your taxes.
ua-cam.com/video/SPq6_7AFsp4/v-deo.html
Socialized medicine is not the answer.
animal kindness
Spain doesn't have ethnic and white ghettos. Spain doesn't have 350 million people. Spain and Europe doesn't have to spend money on military. We do that for them...get it?
@@slappyhappy6192 spain also isn't anywhere near as wealthy and industrious as the US is. the population argument is meaningless. the more people there are in a wealthier industrious nation the larger the tax base to help fund the millions needing support. even america's ghettos are paying their share of taxes. the military argument is nonsense too. there's no need for america to spend hundreds of billions on defence, that sort of money is only perpetuated by state megalomania and corporate influence.
@@metatron4890 socialized healthcare in many western nations ranks better by most criteria than america's.
UBI is addressing the wrong problem… They want government to be the one distributing the money but by what means is the government getting that money to distribute it... by taking it from people!!!
The actual solution to this problem would be to end taxation and then people would be able to afford where they live much more readily!!!
It’s going through this crazy unnecessary filtration system of getting the money to people rather than just not stealing it from them in the first place!!!
Taxes don't pay for Govt spending.
@@henrygustav7948 Where do YOU think government gets its money from???
@@davesims7917 article 1 section 8 of US constitution, Congress has the power of the purse to create money for the defense and general welfare of the US. Federal govt does not tax either you or I for revenue.
@@henrygustav7948 🤦🏼♂️
So where do you exactly think your tax dollars go??? To the government or to magic fairies?
@@davesims7917 🤦♂️ tax dollars collected by the federal government are destroyed and can not be used again for spending, therefore federal taxes are not used for revenue, they are used as a tool to control the purchasing power of the usd, to control inflation, also used as a pigouvian tax to control behaviors, and as a way to drive the demand for US dollars. You know what? Don't take my word for it, here is former NY fed chairman Beardsly Ruml
home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/RUMLTAXES.html
"All federal taxes must meet the test of public policy and practical effect. The public purpose which is served should never be obscured in a tax program under the mask of raising revenue.
What Taxes Are Really For
Federal taxes can be made to serve four principal purposes of a social and economic character. These purposes are:
1. As an instrument of fiscal policy to help stabilize the purchasing power of the dollar;
2. To express public policy in the distribution of wealth and of income, as in the case of the progressive income and estate taxes;
3. To express public policy in subsidizing or in penalizing various industries and economic groups;
4. To isolate and assess directly the costs of certain national benefits, such as highways and social security."
"The dollars the government spends become purchasing power in the hands of the people who have received them. The dollars the government takes by taxes cannot be spent by the people, and, therefore, these dollars can no longer be used to acquire the things which are available for sale. Taxation is, therefore, an instrument of the first importance in the administration of any fiscal and monetary policy."
Charles Muarry, no way bad idea. I hope this idea goes nowhere fast. But if u didn' live that long I guess it might be something. Who knows this requires much more thought , but still against this I think.
There is no debate on universal income.
It will not work.
Joe Rogans Debate of this issue has 300K views, go figure.
Who else skipped Bernstein's bullshit and fastforwarded to Murray
34:30 IQ affects employability.
Future jobs will require workers with above average IQs.
60 to 74 "Slow, simple, supervised."
74 to 89 food service
89 to 100 Walmart
100 to 111 Police officer
‐------------------‐‐------------------------
111 to 120 Teacher
120 to 125 Professor
125 to 132 Attorney
132 to 137 Eminent professor
137 to 200 No limitations.
Approximately 84% of the American population has an IQ below 115, representing a significant cognative underclass that will need to be taken care of .
Assume a modest 3% population growth rate and it becomes clear that a Universal Basic Income is simply not a sustainable approach to the problem.
Where is all this money that ubi would squander on people who dont need it?
Murray is wrong on just giving people the 3500 to self invest. People wouldn't be able to do it on average, thus the reason for govt to do it.
I think Bernstein is using Medicare as a substitute for healthcare. If so, he is correct, unless there is a companion policy to address the cost of healthcare. If he is referring to Medicare as Medicare(for retired people), then I've no clue what the fuck he is talking about.
Retraining? Ahaahahahahahahaahh
Andrew yang!! Anyone??
Have A Plan If You Plan To Have.
Incentive to have as many kids as possible and convince them to live at home forever. This seems counter-productive to overpopulation.
I think UBI misses the core problems that need to be fixed first, which are central bank money printing, and needing to replace all wealth transfer taxes with wealth taxes (income, sales, gas, all of it) based on universal, real-time wealth registration. Without addressing these, UBI is a house built on sand.
"EUUUNIVERSUL BASIC INCUM IS THE UNLY SOLUTION TO THE RIUSE OF AI ATOMATION!" - Dziurdzik, 2018
Universal Basic Income is a Universally Bad Idea.
"To be generous with one's own possessions is quite different from being generous with those of posterity."
Lifeboat Ethics: the Case Against Helping the Poor
www.garretthardinsociety.org/articles/art_lifeboat_ethics_case_against_helping_poor.html
Ew. Either of these futures described here make my stomach turn. Talk about not being able to think outside the box! How about a total redesign of our inefficient, insufficient socio-economic system, one that actually make the most of our resources efficiently and sustainably for the benefit of ALL, no one left out. No poverty, no homeless! We can surpass this primitive dog eat dog system with a Resource Based Economy system. #RBENow
Bored Boar Yes it would be an excellent tool in a transition process, if only it would be used consciously and strategically as such. The way they are discussing it here just shows us that our current structures will likely give us the least appealing version of the UBI:(
Bored Boar , I hear what you are saying and I agree with most of it. I do think that the best case scenario transition to a RBE would be to utilize both a UBI and a guaranteed job sharing system. This would be useful while we are automating critical infrastructure in order to free people from those mundane tasks. What that would look like to me is getting rid of the useless jobs...sales, insurance Wall Street etc. and sharing the necessary work, which would put people at something like 10 hours a week if there was plenty of people wanting to participate. then when at a designated percentage of automation we would phase money out all together.
gespilk , No you misunderstood the RBE system. The system understands that we live on a finite planet with limited resources, but the system does not manufacture scarcity as this current system does it makes efficient use resources and technology without the horrific or waste pollution and exploitation and elitism of the current system.
gespilk A RBE as described by TVP or TZM is not at all like the current system. It moves us to an access economy, an open source technical efficiency. This is a system that makes the best use of what we have, not dictated by elite corporate agendas for profit that create so much waste pollution and exploitation. These things are not necessary we can organize a system where we work symbiotically with The real nature of things and the available resources and technology to make the most of what we have for everyone, no haves and have not‘s at all. We can and we really must surpass this primitive predatory type of system.
gespilk , There are no poor in a RBE system. Everything you’re saying is just outdated status quo,primitive thinking. Innovators don’t innovate to get rich, the innovate to create. And they will gain from their contribution directly by enjoying the improvements they make to society. We have the technology to surpass this uncivilized system where we accept that some people have to suffer, be subjugated and devalued. We can all thrive and if you don’t want us all to thrive, I don’t know what to say to you.
very poor attempts at comedy lol
Dont have kids you cant afford.
@Marco
Money wont be the deciding factor. A persons ability to make money will be. Just as in the animal kingdom those animals most successfully at acquiring resources will have the most offspring. Propping up stupid people goes against nature.
@@DaveWard-xc7vd What does the animal kingdom know bout money?
@@henrygustav7948
Calories are the currency of the animal kingdom.
@@DaveWard-xc7vd Let me rephrase, what is money? lol calories.
@@henrygustav7948
To an animal food is money.