Ironically at this moment I feel like Dorian being a bit of an outsider to the Bells actually made him the most level headed person out of the group. He wasn't hurt by Ottahan like the rest of the party had been so he didn't have nearly the same baggage towards the sword as the rest of them, so when he said "It's just an object, don't let it drive you all apart," I think the more reasonable members of the group were willing to take a breath and go "Yeah, it is just an object, we shouldn't give it the power to drive us apart." I also appreciated that when Laudna tried to get nasty at Dorian, he still stayed the course and reaffirmed "Friends are more important than objects." Made Dorian one of the MVPs of this encounter in my opinion
So validating seeing the whole table as excited and RIVETED about this party conflict during the Cooldown ep. Was literally screaming DO IIIIIIT the entire stream 😂
Indeed! Liam has stated multiple times that he's an unrepentant sucker for melodrama in stories so I imagine internally he was eating up every second of this, but the fact he can stay so completely in character despite his giddiness is testament to his ability as an actor
It was so fun to see the whole table, including Liam, being so eager to see what Delilah was gonna say about the sword. "you can beat a 10... 16 and a haaaaalf"
I'm team orym in this case. He was assaulted in his sleep, woke up to the darkness spell, and gave chase. The sword killed his people long before it touched any other member of Bells Hells. It's not Laudnas to take. Also, and hear me out: HES JUST A FIGHTER. Sure, he has a ONCE PER DAY casting of hex and misty Step from the Fey touched feat, but he's a normal fighter. In fact, he is quite poorly built as he's just a sword and board fighter, which is suboptimal in 5th edition. Laudna is one of the best multi-classes in 5th Edition: The Coffee-lock.
I think the mess is both Orym and Laudna's fault. Both could have attempted a conversation, Orym before going out when people mentioned that they could see him taking the sword and Laudna when she saw Orym carrying it on his back. I think Orym has suffered more from the blade though, so just the reason that the blade is traumatic is not enough to destroy it. Orym has suffered more from it, and if he's willing to work through it then so should everyone else. And Orym does need a power up
This is all Laudna, she's comprised. Delilah will always manipulate and push her toward the ends in which Delilah chooses. Laudna is basically a walking phylactery that will end with her either bringing back Delilah or her body being the vessel for her return.
@shambhvilokre My friend's trauma is not my responsibility tho. I can be sensitive toward them and their issue, but they don't give to just order me not to do something. Orym said he was willing to be convinced about the sword, but Laudna just straight up attacked him. She doesn't get to make decisions for Orym just because she's traumatized.
Indeed. If I was a trained soldier and I felt someone trying to slip my gun out off my back while I was sleeping, I wouldn't be like "Who's there?" I'd probably instinctively punch them as hard as I could
The disclaimer at the beginning, because yeah the discourse always gets out of hand; bowlgate, shardgate, and now this. They're actors, and if their characters didn't fall for the character traps then it wouldn't work for their growth, it's been almost a decade just let them cook. Also they balanced the tension with off-table comedy too. But an intervention is sorely needed, not just for Laudna either (who is more in the wrong, Orym should've asked the group yes but Laudna's reasoning is driven by Delilah wanting it, taking Scream Needle - which would've been highly useful against casters - proves that it was for power rather than protection) since Orym let slip about him dealing with Nanna Mori, perhaps Dorian can use a Zone of Truth to assist. Gotta stop saving the drama dumps right before an important mission.
This is a great character moment for both Laudna & Orym, I’ll also include the rest of BH. It’s also, speaking from the narrative, an example of the failure to communicate. It’s been demonstrated that Laudna can’t stand betrayal & we’ve seen how feral she is when betrayed. It’s very interesting to see how quick she falls to self deception to justify her actions to take Otohan’s blade from Orym. Despite how both Laudna & Orym felt about the blade and their reasons/motivations. Making the conscious choice to not communicate or take the initiative to talk privately to each other really adds another layer in the group’s dynamic. I empathize with the both of them but Laudna choosing to ignore Orym’s reasons & her callous response to Chetney regarding loss sets her on a path of self destruction.
Ignore them, at the end of the day, it's their story and they can tell it however they want to. But there's going to be folks like that Character Sheet D&D UA-cam Channel (They're so trash that I'm not even going to bother remembering their name, just like that broad who wants to "talk about the latest CR scandels", newsflash: there was no scandel and she's been lying through her teeth just to get clicks) who want to focus on inconsequential details, like "[exaggerated radio voice] ]oh this is such a toxic relationship between the members of Bell's Hells, especially Imogen and Laudna".
@@deathbykonami5487 I mean, to be fair Imogen and Laudna do have a mildly toxic relationship. They're in love yes, but they're also somewhat co-dependant at times which leads them to overlook things that should be called out. But that's part of what makes it interesting to see where there relationship will go and if they can grow beyond that. But trying to make a mountain out of a molehill like some dramatubers really try to? Naw, this aint that
My favorite comments for these videos, that aren't by someone talking out their ass, are the ones who can correlate Laudna's recent behavior since killing Bor'Dor with someone struggling with severe narcotics addiction and dependency. While a grim concept by itself, it makes Laudna's character feel more human and real. This episode perfectly encapsulates what happens when an addict goes too long without a fix (in Laudna's case, her fix is to feed her patron with magic, like Gale from Baldur's Gate 3): the stealing from friends, the hurting of friends, the gaslighting, trying to convince others and, more importantly, herself that she doesn't have a problem, and finally the emotional outbursts (that culminated in her turning into Delilah when she went into her Form of Dread). My god, Marisha should really audition for more roles, voice over, on screen, etc, cause she's such an underutilized talent and that whole scenario proves it.
Yep! I remember being first put on this train of thought when they discussed Laudna's behavior after Delilah came back on an episode of 4-Sided Dive. I believe it was Marisha herself who brought up that Laudna's journey had a lot of parallels to someone dealing with addiction and withdrawal, and that sadly sometimes people backslide even though they know they're undoing all the good their friends did to get them out of that space and that the guilt sometimes just fuels the reliance on the addiction. And after that I looked at how Marisha played Laudna going forward and there were a few times where I was like "Yep. That's addict behavior right there." Honestly Laudna's actions here made me really, really not like who she is when she's chasing the fix but I had to admit they were very well grounded in that type of behavior and was an excellent showcase on why it's so hard having a loved one go through that. Because it also brings up the scary question of "When is it that I can no longer do anything for this person and that being around them is harmful to me?" Some might argue otherwise, but I feel Laudna's perhaps not at that level yet but she's getting daaaaangerously close
@@deathbykonami5487 Which to be fair is very understandable. When you're a soldier fighting a war, being hardwired to immediately spring into "combat mode" when someone seemingly attacks you in your sleep is a valid response. And the whole magical darkness thing certainly didn't help
Chetney having to get up and close the drafty window that Laudna open and then for Laudna to later open it again and Chetney is like “What the Fuck?” Is the funniest 🤣 sequence to happen within this tense moment between Orym and Laudna!!!! 32:45-33:30-36:24 🤣👌
Honestly Chetney was the best sprinkle of levity in this entire situation. To me it didn't take away from the drama but it did add some much needed chuckles to a situation so tense you could have cut it with a butter knife
@@hadesblackplays Part of me feels like he did it on purpose because Travis is LIVING for this player conflict - you can see it through the WHOLE clip lol
this was a great rp moment but as someone who's been on the addict side things (marisha's take on laudna/delilah relationship), in toxic romantic relationships and being a caretaker it was really hard to see, like i felt my stomach twisted in a hunderd different ways.
This was great! It's always a treat to see Marisha and Liam acting and reacting to eachother. Also, it was getting too chummy in here (a joke to those who don't know the ref) The conflict was so delicious.
I thinkthat to me the loudest thing that Laudna didn't say is "I'm sorry." She kept saying she wasn't trying to hurt him or didnt mean to but never apologized for the fact that it actually happened. Just because you dont mean to do.something doesnt mean you shouldnt apologize for it. The "well i only bruised you, you cut me" and saying "it was dark" shifting thr blame off of herself for the accident and trying to put blame on Orym for defending himself from what he percieved as an attack. I also think the hypocrisy of her actions bugged me. She has had little problem trying to use Delilah even though she knows the pain that was caused by her when Otohan killed her. And how she so rradily took the dagger. It isnt that no one should use it. Its that she wants to use it.
"This sword is so dark, all it's ever known is death😔" Soo....it's a sword?? You know, a weapon used to kill people?? Is it supposed to be full of light and goodness? 🙄
Late comment BUTTTTT to play the obvious devil's advocate, there is a stark difference between using a weapon in cold blooded murder vs using it for justified self-defense or "righteous" battles.
In dnd there's plenty of weapons that carry a lineage or history of killing evil creatures and monsters (Fiends, undead, aberrations, cultists, evil wizards) like the Holy Avenger or the Sunblade for instance. Some carry a history of performance and story like a weapon used by the Fey. Some have little history like a blade that was forged and left alone until recently discovered.
Unrelated to this conflict, but do you guys think that Chetney is dead (or came pretty close to it)? I mean, the way Travis reacted to his dice roll has to imply something, right?
The very end, that line is hard. "Do not ever speak to me about loss again." I mean, i see both arguments, he lost a lot to that blade and the person who had it, and she died from it and has a madwoman whispering to her that its evil and should be destroyed. But I felt very tense when Chetney told her that he lost more; bro, she lost her whole family, and then friggin DIED! 😂Her first memory about it is her waking up hung from the Sun Tree. Now, dont get me wrong, this was a very tense, emotionally fueled part of the show, and i was as enraptured as all of you. But Orym took the blade without the opinion of the group, didnt say anything about keeping it, I actually thought he was gonna leave it in the park, or even try to destroy it, the way he talked about it in a previous episode. And laudna, leaning more towards her connection with Delilah, has been told that she needs more power so that Laudna could have more power, and she is eying the blade that killed her. This was a conflict that was gonna happen between laudna and someone in the party sooner or later, and it happened here over this blade.
You're not wrong, but Orym died in that same fight as well. So did Fearne. As Liam said in a 4SD Orym "felt like such a failure" as Otahan took his life. He lost his husband, his adoptive father, he was used as a pawn to draw in the leader of his people, and Otahan used poisons to make sure his family stayed dead. All Orym's pain stems from Otahan. Otahan and Ludinus destroyed Orym's whole world, repeatedly. Now I don't necessarily think Orym should keep the sword, but Orym's loss is related to Otahan and her sword. I think Chetney meant that he lost more to that sword than anyone. Laudna's suffering and pain come from the person she's trying to strengthen. The reason her resurrection was so hard was Delilah, not Otahan. She was hung from the sun tree by Delilah, not Otahan. The reason she can't escape her past is Delilah constantly trying to drag her back into it.
@@TheExmes she died for real and had to go throughthe whole shadow realm shit over and over because of this blade as well, Orym was ressuracted right after he got kill Not that he mattered because again its not a question of ‘who suffered the most’ its a question of respecting other peoples boundaries and trauma and both Orym and Laudna failed at this
@@jobyebye2237How did Orym disrespect boundaries and trauma by carrying around the sword that's been consistently present during the worst days of his life? There's two reasons (both reasonable) that Orym would want that sword to carry it: 1. Poetic Justice. This sword was the one that nearly destroyed Zephrah, killed Keyleth and did kill the two most important people in Orym's personal life for the sake of this Ruidus Predathos plan. It's poetic that Orym uses that sword to end the man who orchestrated everything and directed Otohan towards Zephrah in the first place. 2. Orym's responsible and willing to bite the bullet. If the sword is cursed (which it wasn't), then it's his to bare. He's mentally resilient, he'd probably know if he's getting compromised. If the sword is sentient (which again, it wasn't) then Orym will have to try and reason with it. And try to be resistant to its whisperings. Whatever it takes to keep this sword away from bad characters and anything to keep it from doing as much if not more harm than it already has. There is no good reason for Laudna to want the sword. If anything, her wanting the sword as much as she did arguably strengthens my second point of Orym being the responsible one to bear the brunt of any effects the sword would have. Not just that, but she lied about why Orym can't have it. Both Cheney and Fearne verified that the sword just has a large history of death, but not cursed and not sentient. She just wants the sword because Delilah told her to try and take it.
Something along the lines of "I FUCKING KNEW IT" and "I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO" while loading the best gun he has at his disposal. With an "FUCKIN' DELILAH" as a bonus.
@@MrRavons Here let me fix that, *While loading all his guns at his disposal. Question i dont fully this game does he have a bomb or 4? Just to be safe.
Why are some fans keeps on babying Laudna? Gurl tried to steal, deceive and hurt a team mate over a sword. The sword has more meaning to Orym than you, Laudna. know why you lost everything? try asking your abuser who you listened to every damn time. And the party members just kept on enabling her. I love it when Orym said, “jump in anyone”. you saw undead girl attacking someone and everyone just watches. 😂
She didn’t want to hurt Orym, she only wanted to remove the vines connecting the sword to his back. Marisha says several times, both in and out of character that she didn’t mean to hurt him and that she should have just used Blight. She also didn’t want to steal it *at first* as she just tried to touch it but Delilah said that she needed to wield it to be able to tell if it had sentience.
As someone who used to consider Laudna there favorite character and is highly disappointed in her right now, I have some thoughts. First, it’s always hard when your favorite character lets you down in a hard way. They are/were your favorite character for a reason after all, so it hurts to think they’re no longer the character you originally came to like. And some people try to cope with those hard feelings by convincing themselves that “they did nothing wrong” and that they’re the same lovable character as always, because the alternative is admitting your favorite character is no longer someone you like and for some people that’s too painful. Second is that I think some viewers have genuinely fallen for Laudna’s manipulation tactics. I noticed that Laudna used a very classic manipulation technique, which was escalating the emotional stakes to make people uncomfortable. Manipulators often do this to get people to go along with what they want, because we humans are hardwired to be conflict avoidant in social settings. So when someone ratchets up the emotional conflict with a clear out of “this will ratchet down if you give me what I want” (in this case giving her Otohan’s sword and not blaming her for what just happened) then people often instinctively want to give that person what they want. And in this case I think Marisha played it so well that it triggered an avoidance response not just in the group but also in some of the fans who were really deeply invested in the scene. I’ll also point out in support of this that Marisha in the past has alluded that she was once a victim of abuse and that it was someone she once deeply cared for. So I think Marisha is playing this out very deliberately to show just how awful and destructive a person you once trusted and loved turning emotionally abusive can be. Some of these details are so uncomfortable because Marisha probably has seen it firsthand. And for a lot of viewers I think they don’t have experience dealing with that particular type of abusive personality so they want to ignore it. As someone who was once a big fan of Laudna, it’s been heartbreaking seeing where she’s been going. But I definitely have to give mad props to Marisha for crafting a masterful tragedy and corruption arc based on all too real real world scenarios. I hate tragedies and corruption arcs and I hate that it’s happening to one of my favorite characters, but I still have to respect the craft on display here. And I hope some day others can too
@@hfar_in_the_sky She doest not manipulate others just because shes evil shes litterally an addict at this point and *thats* why people still have empathy for her, its different than babying
@@jobyebye2237 Hmmm. And yet when your actions are inherently selfish, harmful to others, and a betrayal of other people’s trust in you, is that not still “evil” though? There’s a difference between being sympathetic and being justified, and you can still feel empathetic towards someone while still condemning their actions. I and others have sympathy for Laudna but do not condone her actions because while we can understand why she did what she did that does not justify her actions are being emotionally manipulative *of her own friends.* There are a handful of fans though who DO want to forgive Laudna or pretend that she was justified, and those fans are indeed babying Laudna. And Laudna does not need babying right now. She needs a hard wake-up call and a proverbial slap to the face because she is very much lost in her sauce
She didn’t want to hurt Orym but she still did it. She should have fez up and admitted the real reason why she wanted it. She kept on gaslighting orym with the how dare you bring that sword in here. Just ask, if orym ignored you the first time, ask again. Not steal, blind and attack a sleeping friend over a sword. Babying. 😂
I think the important factor is that Fearne used to do that but hasn’t anymore. Which is a good thing because they’ve all been through some serious shit, so expecting an ambush in your sleep is not unreasonable. Which I like to think is part of why Fearne stopped being a creepy nightstalker
Ngl, if I were in Laudna’s shoes and saw one of my very best friends walk in with the sword that killed me on his back I’d _absolutely_ see that as a slap in the face and suspect that something was up. Marissa killed the RP here!
Orym had more stake and history with that than anyone. Ottahan killed his father and Spouce. Also who tf else is gonna use it if not the fighter in the party.
That is fair. However, I’d personally say the reasonable thing to do would be to talk it out with your friend rather than listening to the shade of your emotionally abusive murderer. And even more so, the best way to handle the situation after getting caught would be to apologize. Like an actual “I’m sorry.” So while I can understand a bit of Laudna’s motivation, it’s hard to find sympathy
@@hfar_in_the_sky not even, the party should have gone after her so bad for this, why is she even listening to Delilah at all? SHE IS EVIL! Orym has every right and claim to that blade and honestly he should get her fancy back pack fixed too.
It felt like Marisha was hoping the group would let this happen bc it would be a cool moment. Once PvP starts, it gets real dicey to just "let them have their moment". I love the drama and tension and I doubt they'd change it, but Marisha's side comment at the end of the episode made it seem like she thought the fight was unnecessary
I dunno, *I* think Marisha was eating it up either way. And that little side comment of hers at the end was her playing up the "person with an addictive personality guilt tripping people into giving them what they want"
I have to open this by saying that i LOVEEEEED this scene and I loved the choices Liam and Marisha made. Need to make that clear before going into the content and the messages that the characters, not the players, discussed. Orym babies himself too much and keeps saying "I'm just the quick little guy" when he's one of the most dangerous fighters they have. The shock and pain of the initial attack was scary, but after seeing all the damage he inflicted on Laudna, he can't pretend that he's just babygirl. And then, he tried diminishing Laudna's experience as though she chose to be a vessel for Delilah and continued to be manipulated by her. I don't agree that Orym had a right to the sword. It doesn't just automatically undo all the suffering that Otohan wrought with it because they maybe can kill Ludinus with its blade. I agree with Laudna's original point that he should've talked with the group before singlehandedly deciding that he was going to hold onto the blade. It wasn't right of him, and he just wanted his poetic justice, his perfect vengeance, without thinking about how him wielding that blade could affect the other members of his party that were felled by it. Orym always will make excuses for why he's justified until he finally gets what he wants, and then, when he realizes he isn't satisfied, has to learn how to move on and process properly. Otohan's death should've satisfied him. But it didn't. Because he didn't get the final blow. Now, he's moving the goalpost and saying that Ludinus is the one who needs to die for his husband and dad to be avenged. Until he realizes that he's falling into a darkness not unlike Laudna's more things like this will happen where he gets to draw lines and make decisions about his revenge and nobody can say anything about it otherwise. Also Dorian... girl take a seat. You can't let Orym have the sword and put profound meaning to it, and then tell Laudna that she put too much meaning into the sword and it's just a thing and Orym should have it. His bias for his boyfriend is showing, which, love, but also girl you're out of your depth in this conversation.
I mean, Dorian wasn't wrong though. At the end of the day, the sword was just a thing and shouldn't be something that divided them. Which was why the party found it super weird that Laudna was making such a big deal out of it. Like basically threatening to end friendships. Over a sword. So in that regard, Dorian was completely right and in a way was indirectly calling Laudna out on her BS. Because going full nuclear diva over a sword and accusing people of obsessing over something you're clearly obsessing over is some serious BS. Now, we know why Laudna did it, because it was her addiction talking and not her reason. But doesn't mean it's any less BS. And that an old friend saying a friendship shouldn't be ended over a stupid object isn't any less true
@@hfar_in_the_sky I think you're really misrepresenting what Laudna was doing and saying. She wasn't threatening to end friendships. She was telling Orym that he shouldn't have casually wielded such a dark blade and that it should probably be destroyed. Of course, she also was looking to absorb it because she thought that was the best way to handle it, but she wasn't going to end their friendship over it. She was saying "hey, it's really weird that you walked in here wearing that sword without talking to us. It should be destroyed or absorbed." I also don't agree that Dorian is still correct because while his major point was not to let items get in the way of friendships, his answer wasn't to agree with Laudna and destroy it, it was to allow Orym to apply his own meaning to it, keep it, and wield it how he saw fit. If anything, Orym is the one who is letting the sword get in between all of them. Orym decided that the sword meant more to him than it did everyone else, and so he had sole rights to decide how it was used even though Laudna was killed by it, and almost everyone else almost died by it. While Laudna was being manipulated and perhaps took things too far, I don't believe that she was being a "nuclear diva" just because she thought it was unfair of Orym to make a decision like that without consulting everyone. If the spell had gone off like she'd intended, this would have been an entirely different situation. We only got the situation we did because her spell didn't go off as planned. (And before the girlies come in with the "Well, Actually, the spell says you can ignore certain targets," that was clearly a misstep by Marisha because she said multiple times that she would've used blight as it wouldn't have affected him.)
@@doctorgod5292 Except Laudna was basically choosing to threaten her friendship with everyone over it. She at any point could have de-escalated the situation. She could have tried to give Orym a good reason why letting her absorb the blade was a good idea. She could have asked that the blade go into the hole and that they shelve it until they figure out what to do with it. Hell, a lot of the rest of the party were even trying to give her outs to de-escalate the situation. But she didn't. And she didn't because she WANTED the sword. And she wanted it bad. She wanted it more than she actually cared about de-escalating the situation. Which makes sense when you look at her actions from the POV of an addict trying to feed their addiction. Which Matt and Marisha themselves have said on 4-Sided Dive is basically Laudna's character arc at this point. So yeah, she was being a nuclear diva, because she wasn't acting for the interest of the party. She was acting out of her own selfish addiction at the expense of the rest of the party. SHE was allowing a thing to drive a wedge between her and the rest of her friends. And Dorian knew it. Orym knew it. I think all of them knew it in the end. They all to some degree or another tried to keep the fences mended. She just wanted the sword, because that was what would feed her addiction. It's very sad, but also very understandable. It'd be foolish to think that we're dealing with a reasonable Laudna at this time, because we're not. This is Laudna thoroughly lost in her own addiction and it's starting to warp her relationships with everyone around her. Because sadly that's what serious addiction often does
@@hfar_in_the_sky My point isn't that Laudna is acting correctly, it's that Orym is doing the same exact thing as her, he just doesn't have Delilah whispering in his head. He doesn't actually have a good reason to wield the blade either, but he thinks that its his right to wield it because it's for his quest of vengeance. Orym has put weight and emphasis on this blade because of his history and he thinks that his loss is greater so he's the only one who gets to decide how it's used. And Dorian, instead of clocking that Orym's also flawed in his argument, is just siding with Orym because of his bias. It was wrong of Orym to decide that he'd wield the blade without talking with anyone, and that was Laudna's original issue. Everything after that was Delilah manipulating her. Even after everything de-escalates and some of the party say that they think he maybe shouldn't wield the blade since it's so dark, and we don't have super confirmation on its actual sentience or not, he puts it back into the vines, fully intending to use it. So sure, maybe Laudna wasn't being overly reasonable, but she also fully thought that Orym was being corrupted by an evil blade that curses its wielders. Whether Delilah is lying, she was trying to protect her friends. Her first thought probably wasn't to reason with someone that she believed was being enticed by the curse of the blade.
@@doctorgod5292 Saying that Orym carrying the sword is the same as Laudna effectively deciding she can't trust her teammate, literally going behind his back to take matters into her own hands without talking to him, and then trying to manipulate the party to let her have to feed her own dark desire is wild. Orym explained why he could use the sword to do good and to protect them all. And then he only asked that Laudna give him a good reason why she should absorb it. Because when you catch your friend salivating over a supposed "cursed object" after they tried to steal it in your sleep, you don't just go "Oh sure! I'll just let you have it!" You quite reasonably ask them "Why?" Orym is not an unreasonable person. He's a overly self effacing and emotionally broken soldier with unresolved PTSD and a massive, barely contained martyr complex, but he's not unreasonable when it comes to his friends. If he was genuinely convinced that Laudna could put it to better use than he could and it wouldn't corrupt her in some way, he would've given it to her in a heartbeat. Laudna meanwhile decided that somehow this man who literally would give his life for her or anyone else "couldn't be trusted with it." Which is a absolutely wild leap of logic, but it makes sense for someone suffering from crippling addiction looking for a justification for their actions. And that's what all of Laudna's "outrage" is: justification for her adiction. I'm just saying, Orym and Dorian aren't the ones you should be condemning right now. Our favorite spooky girl has a lot of BS going on with her that she really needs to be called out on
I mean, poor Orym right? he's lost so much...but so did Laudna, he's mad he got hurt but the one bleeding was Laudna, he got the sword that was not his to have without checking how the party would feel and then he decided to get sassy and tell Laudna about her darkness but while Laudna did not choose Delilah but he's choosing the sword that has a much darker history...so no, i don't think poor Orym and don't think he was fair, he was just a brat
I mean, Orym got ATTACKED by someone trying to steal an incredibly powerful sword in the middle of the night. And then it turned out to be his friend being super weird and cagey who then piles on a MOUNTAIN of guilt just out of nowhere. If it had really bothered her, she could have brought it up earlier rather than trying to STEAL IT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT. Plus put yourself in his shoes. Your friend tries to steal a cursed artifact that you're currently safekeeping and won't tell you why they want it so bad. You've already dealt with mind control and impersonations multiple times and you also know this friend was once possessed and forced to do things by a incredibly powerful evil wizard possessing her. At that moment WHY WOULD YOU TRUST THEM WITHOUT A VALID EXPLANATION? *ESPECIALLY* WHEN THEY'RE ACTING MEGA SUS? So let's not act like this is all on Orym here, because frankly this wasn't Laudna actually acting reasonable in the slightest even if she wasn't acting on magical addiction.
Laudna is mentally ill and under the control of an insane necromancer, and she's attacking her "friends" in their sleep. Orym picked up a sword. They are not the same.
@@dashpepito2318 She brought it up AFTER she got caught trying to steal it. And in an incredibly shifty way. Which at that point Orym was more preoccupied that his friend just cast a withering spell on him and was trying to steal a magic sword in the dead of night. Because that is a fucking weird thing for your friend to do. So unless you're actually buying into all that manipulative stuff Laudna said when she got caught in order to deflect from massive breach of trust she just commited, I don't know what to tell you. Because trying to spin this as if Orym is somehow responsible for what happened is wild. Especially since we know it wasn't actually because she was upset over the sword that she did what she did. She wanted to feed her magic addiction and was angry she got caught
@@greathouseofdel I feel like so many fans forget that most of the cast of Critical Role are trained actors and that most of them are unrepentant theater kids who LOVE playing out drama between their characters. Because let's be real, when has a group of theater loving actors ever NOT loved sinking their teeth into some good character drama?
I think they meant similar situation in Campaign 2 between Caleb (Liam) and Beau (Marisha). Beau was a bit agresive about Caleb's approach. And same as here, I found Caleb's/Liam's behaviour much more reasonable and innocent than Beau's/Marisha's anger about it. So they pointed out that Liam and Marisha like and create this kind of situations repeatedly.
I would argue it started with “Liam makes the executive decision again to keep a powerful item for himself before discussing it with the group” first. And before ya’ll come for me, Robbie, Laura, Marisha, and Matt actually talk about Liam’s penchant for that on 4 Sided Dive - with Robbie being the one to ascribe it to the PLAYER Liam and not the CHARACTER Orym. It’s p telling when he can observe that while having only played with them for a fraction of the time. Also, I love Liam O’Brien! He is at the root of some of the best rp CR has ever had. He is kind and supportive and makes fighters look like the coolest class when we know that’s not usually the case. I’m just pointing out that that is his player flaw. We all have one
Ironically at this moment I feel like Dorian being a bit of an outsider to the Bells actually made him the most level headed person out of the group. He wasn't hurt by Ottahan like the rest of the party had been so he didn't have nearly the same baggage towards the sword as the rest of them, so when he said "It's just an object, don't let it drive you all apart," I think the more reasonable members of the group were willing to take a breath and go "Yeah, it is just an object, we shouldn't give it the power to drive us apart."
I also appreciated that when Laudna tried to get nasty at Dorian, he still stayed the course and reaffirmed "Friends are more important than objects." Made Dorian one of the MVPs of this encounter in my opinion
Plus, Dorian's actually carrying Bertrand's cursed sword. And he's fine.
So validating seeing the whole table as excited and RIVETED about this party conflict during the Cooldown ep. Was literally screaming DO IIIIIIT the entire stream 😂
I AM SO JEALOUS OF THE COOLDOWN EPISODES!!!
Percy bolting up in his bed like “…should’ve taken the shot”
Damn liam smiles and then emmediately goes into character 😮
Indeed! Liam has stated multiple times that he's an unrepentant sucker for melodrama in stories so I imagine internally he was eating up every second of this, but the fact he can stay so completely in character despite his giddiness is testament to his ability as an actor
Meanwhile in Whitestone, Percival de Rolo just woke up.
“I fucking knew it”
I love how intense this scene is but everyone (especially Marisha and Liam) are smiling to themselves! They seem to be having so much fun!!
It was so fun to see the whole table, including Liam, being so eager to see what Delilah was gonna say about the sword. "you can beat a 10... 16 and a haaaaalf"
I'm team orym in this case. He was assaulted in his sleep, woke up to the darkness spell, and gave chase. The sword killed his people long before it touched any other member of Bells Hells. It's not Laudnas to take.
Also, and hear me out: HES JUST A FIGHTER. Sure, he has a ONCE PER DAY casting of hex and misty Step from the Fey touched feat, but he's a normal fighter. In fact, he is quite poorly built as he's just a sword and board fighter, which is suboptimal in 5th edition. Laudna is one of the best multi-classes in 5th Edition: The Coffee-lock.
I think the mess is both Orym and Laudna's fault. Both could have attempted a conversation, Orym before going out when people mentioned that they could see him taking the sword and Laudna when she saw Orym carrying it on his back.
I think Orym has suffered more from the blade though, so just the reason that the blade is traumatic is not enough to destroy it. Orym has suffered more from it, and if he's willing to work through it then so should everyone else. And Orym does need a power up
This is all Laudna, she's comprised. Delilah will always manipulate and push her toward the ends in which Delilah chooses. Laudna is basically a walking phylactery that will end with her either bringing back Delilah or her body being the vessel for her return.
Tbh if one of friends said that a thing I was using made them super uncomfortable because of some trauma. I wouldn't take it near them for any reason
@shambhvilokre My friend's trauma is not my responsibility tho. I can be sensitive toward them and their issue, but they don't give to just order me not to do something. Orym said he was willing to be convinced about the sword, but Laudna just straight up attacked him. She doesn't get to make decisions for Orym just because she's traumatized.
Indeed. If I was a trained soldier and I felt someone trying to slip my gun out off my back while I was sleeping, I wouldn't be like "Who's there?" I'd probably instinctively punch them as hard as I could
The disclaimer at the beginning, because yeah the discourse always gets out of hand; bowlgate, shardgate, and now this. They're actors, and if their characters didn't fall for the character traps then it wouldn't work for their growth, it's been almost a decade just let them cook. Also they balanced the tension with off-table comedy too.
But an intervention is sorely needed, not just for Laudna either (who is more in the wrong, Orym should've asked the group yes but Laudna's reasoning is driven by Delilah wanting it, taking Scream Needle - which would've been highly useful against casters - proves that it was for power rather than protection) since Orym let slip about him dealing with Nanna Mori, perhaps Dorian can use a Zone of Truth to assist. Gotta stop saving the drama dumps right before an important mission.
This is a great character moment for both Laudna & Orym, I’ll also include the rest of BH. It’s also, speaking from the narrative, an example of the failure to communicate.
It’s been demonstrated that Laudna can’t stand betrayal & we’ve seen how feral she is when betrayed. It’s very interesting to see how quick she falls to self deception to justify her actions to take Otohan’s blade from Orym.
Despite how both Laudna & Orym felt about the blade and their reasons/motivations. Making the conscious choice to not communicate or take the initiative to talk privately to each other really adds another layer in the group’s dynamic.
I empathize with the both of them but Laudna choosing to ignore Orym’s reasons & her callous response to Chetney regarding loss sets her on a path of self destruction.
Ive read rumors of this interaction, im glad to see a clip finally
Ignore them, at the end of the day, it's their story and they can tell it however they want to. But there's going to be folks like that Character Sheet D&D UA-cam Channel (They're so trash that I'm not even going to bother remembering their name, just like that broad who wants to "talk about the latest CR scandels", newsflash: there was no scandel and she's been lying through her teeth just to get clicks) who want to focus on inconsequential details, like "[exaggerated radio voice] ]oh this is such a toxic relationship between the members of Bell's Hells, especially Imogen and Laudna".
@@deathbykonami5487 I mean, to be fair Imogen and Laudna do have a mildly toxic relationship. They're in love yes, but they're also somewhat co-dependant at times which leads them to overlook things that should be called out. But that's part of what makes it interesting to see where there relationship will go and if they can grow beyond that.
But trying to make a mountain out of a molehill like some dramatubers really try to? Naw, this aint that
My favorite comments for these videos, that aren't by someone talking out their ass, are the ones who can correlate Laudna's recent behavior since killing Bor'Dor with someone struggling with severe narcotics addiction and dependency. While a grim concept by itself, it makes Laudna's character feel more human and real. This episode perfectly encapsulates what happens when an addict goes too long without a fix (in Laudna's case, her fix is to feed her patron with magic, like Gale from Baldur's Gate 3): the stealing from friends, the hurting of friends, the gaslighting, trying to convince others and, more importantly, herself that she doesn't have a problem, and finally the emotional outbursts (that culminated in her turning into Delilah when she went into her Form of Dread). My god, Marisha should really audition for more roles, voice over, on screen, etc, cause she's such an underutilized talent and that whole scenario proves it.
Yep! I remember being first put on this train of thought when they discussed Laudna's behavior after Delilah came back on an episode of 4-Sided Dive. I believe it was Marisha herself who brought up that Laudna's journey had a lot of parallels to someone dealing with addiction and withdrawal, and that sadly sometimes people backslide even though they know they're undoing all the good their friends did to get them out of that space and that the guilt sometimes just fuels the reliance on the addiction. And after that I looked at how Marisha played Laudna going forward and there were a few times where I was like "Yep. That's addict behavior right there."
Honestly Laudna's actions here made me really, really not like who she is when she's chasing the fix but I had to admit they were very well grounded in that type of behavior and was an excellent showcase on why it's so hard having a loved one go through that. Because it also brings up the scary question of "When is it that I can no longer do anything for this person and that being around them is harmful to me?" Some might argue otherwise, but I feel Laudna's perhaps not at that level yet but she's getting daaaaangerously close
@@hfar_in_the_sky Orym's damn near close to the end of his rope as well, and he was so close to actually killing her when she attacked him.
@@deathbykonami5487 Which to be fair is very understandable. When you're a soldier fighting a war, being hardwired to immediately spring into "combat mode" when someone seemingly attacks you in your sleep is a valid response. And the whole magical darkness thing certainly didn't help
Chetney having to get up and close the drafty window that Laudna open and then for Laudna to later open it again and Chetney is like “What the Fuck?” Is the funniest 🤣 sequence to happen within this tense moment between Orym and Laudna!!!! 32:45-33:30-36:24 🤣👌
Honestly Chetney was the best sprinkle of levity in this entire situation. To me it didn't take away from the drama but it did add some much needed chuckles to a situation so tense you could have cut it with a butter knife
@@hfar_in_the_sky this was a great way for travis to still be present as chetney in the moment and add something to the rp
@@hadesblackplays Part of me feels like he did it on purpose because Travis is LIVING for this player conflict - you can see it through the WHOLE clip lol
Tal slowly taking off his glasses. Same. His silent facial responses. Also Travis just being a little chaos demon whispering to Marisha lol😂
this was a great rp moment but as someone who's been on the addict side things (marisha's take on laudna/delilah relationship), in toxic romantic relationships and being a caretaker it was really hard to see, like i felt my stomach twisted in a hunderd different ways.
12:17-12:40. Never thought someone saying "B**ch", would break the tension for a bit.
chet is my favourite as both his character and his comedic relief
also this CR Cool Down episode was soooo good! loved everyones reactions on this crazy episode❤
This was great! It's always a treat to see Marisha and Liam acting and reacting to eachother. Also, it was getting too chummy in here (a joke to those who don't know the ref) The conflict was so delicious.
I thinkthat to me the loudest thing that Laudna didn't say is "I'm sorry." She kept saying she wasn't trying to hurt him or didnt mean to but never apologized for the fact that it actually happened. Just because you dont mean to do.something doesnt mean you shouldnt apologize for it. The "well i only bruised you, you cut me" and saying "it was dark" shifting thr blame off of herself for the accident and trying to put blame on Orym for defending himself from what he percieved as an attack.
I also think the hypocrisy of her actions bugged me. She has had little problem trying to use Delilah even though she knows the pain that was caused by her when Otohan killed her. And how she so rradily took the dagger. It isnt that no one should use it. Its that she wants to use it.
Wow, I was screaming shoootheeerrr! The whole time.
Just wait for Percy to turn up for that !
The Elder wand sword
"This sword is so dark, all it's ever known is death😔" Soo....it's a sword?? You know, a weapon used to kill people?? Is it supposed to be full of light and goodness? 🙄
well you could like spread some jam with it or butter your toast. Sure, your dealing with a lot of length now though compared to a knife.
@@alexworoniecki7231 Now I’m just imagining someone using Craven Edge to spread some jam on toast while it screams “This is undignified!” 😂
Late comment BUTTTTT to play the obvious devil's advocate, there is a stark difference between using a weapon in cold blooded murder vs using it for justified self-defense or "righteous" battles.
In dnd there's plenty of weapons that carry a lineage or history of killing evil creatures and monsters (Fiends, undead, aberrations, cultists, evil wizards) like the Holy Avenger or the Sunblade for instance. Some carry a history of performance and story like a weapon used by the Fey. Some have little history like a blade that was forged and left alone until recently discovered.
Unrelated to this conflict, but do you guys think that Chetney is dead (or came pretty close to it)? I mean, the way Travis reacted to his dice roll has to imply something, right?
He rolled 001. He dies if he rolls triple 0.
That's why he reacted like that.
@@brian0057 Ah, thanks for telling me this! I was worried
The very end, that line is hard. "Do not ever speak to me about loss again." I mean, i see both arguments, he lost a lot to that blade and the person who had it, and she died from it and has a madwoman whispering to her that its evil and should be destroyed. But I felt very tense when Chetney told her that he lost more; bro, she lost her whole family, and then friggin DIED! 😂Her first memory about it is her waking up hung from the Sun Tree.
Now, dont get me wrong, this was a very tense, emotionally fueled part of the show, and i was as enraptured as all of you. But Orym took the blade without the opinion of the group, didnt say anything about keeping it, I actually thought he was gonna leave it in the park, or even try to destroy it, the way he talked about it in a previous episode. And laudna, leaning more towards her connection with Delilah, has been told that she needs more power so that Laudna could have more power, and she is eying the blade that killed her. This was a conflict that was gonna happen between laudna and someone in the party sooner or later, and it happened here over this blade.
You're not wrong, but Orym died in that same fight as well. So did Fearne. As Liam said in a 4SD Orym "felt like such a failure" as Otahan took his life. He lost his husband, his adoptive father, he was used as a pawn to draw in the leader of his people, and Otahan used poisons to make sure his family stayed dead. All Orym's pain stems from Otahan. Otahan and Ludinus destroyed Orym's whole world, repeatedly. Now I don't necessarily think Orym should keep the sword, but Orym's loss is related to Otahan and her sword. I think Chetney meant that he lost more to that sword than anyone.
Laudna's suffering and pain come from the person she's trying to strengthen. The reason her resurrection was so hard was Delilah, not Otahan. She was hung from the sun tree by Delilah, not Otahan. The reason she can't escape her past is Delilah constantly trying to drag her back into it.
Finally a nuanced take here
@@TheExmes she died for real and had to go throughthe whole shadow realm shit over and over because of this blade as well, Orym was ressuracted right after he got kill
Not that he mattered because again its not a question of ‘who suffered the most’ its a question of respecting other peoples boundaries and trauma and both Orym and Laudna failed at this
@@jobyebye2237How did Orym disrespect boundaries and trauma by carrying around the sword that's been consistently present during the worst days of his life?
There's two reasons (both reasonable) that Orym would want that sword to carry it:
1. Poetic Justice. This sword was the one that nearly destroyed Zephrah, killed Keyleth and did kill the two most important people in Orym's personal life for the sake of this Ruidus Predathos plan. It's poetic that Orym uses that sword to end the man who orchestrated everything and directed Otohan towards Zephrah in the first place.
2. Orym's responsible and willing to bite the bullet. If the sword is cursed (which it wasn't), then it's his to bare. He's mentally resilient, he'd probably know if he's getting compromised. If the sword is sentient (which again, it wasn't) then Orym will have to try and reason with it. And try to be resistant to its whisperings. Whatever it takes to keep this sword away from bad characters and anything to keep it from doing as much if not more harm than it already has.
There is no good reason for Laudna to want the sword. If anything, her wanting the sword as much as she did arguably strengthens my second point of Orym being the responsible one to bear the brunt of any effects the sword would have.
Not just that, but she lied about why Orym can't have it. Both Cheney and Fearne verified that the sword just has a large history of death, but not cursed and not sentient.
She just wants the sword because Delilah told her to try and take it.
What would Percy think?
Something along the lines of "I FUCKING KNEW IT" and "I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO" while loading the best gun he has at his disposal.
With an "FUCKIN' DELILAH" as a bonus.
There's no doubt in my mind he would keep the promise he made to Ashton back in Whitestone when they tried to sever her connection with Delilah.
Percy: "Someone take the shot, because I F***ING CALLED IT!"
@@MrRavons Here let me fix that, *While loading all his guns at his disposal. Question i dont fully this game does he have a bomb or 4? Just to be safe.
No thoughts, just pew pew
Why are some fans keeps on babying Laudna? Gurl tried to steal, deceive and hurt a team mate over a sword. The sword has more meaning to Orym than you, Laudna. know why you lost everything? try asking your abuser who you listened to every damn time. And the party members just kept on enabling her. I love it when Orym said, “jump in anyone”.
you saw undead girl attacking someone and everyone just watches. 😂
She didn’t want to hurt Orym, she only wanted to remove the vines connecting the sword to his back. Marisha says several times, both in and out of character that she didn’t mean to hurt him and that she should have just used Blight.
She also didn’t want to steal it *at first* as she just tried to touch it but Delilah said that she needed to wield it to be able to tell if it had sentience.
As someone who used to consider Laudna there favorite character and is highly disappointed in her right now, I have some thoughts.
First, it’s always hard when your favorite character lets you down in a hard way. They are/were your favorite character for a reason after all, so it hurts to think they’re no longer the character you originally came to like. And some people try to cope with those hard feelings by convincing themselves that “they did nothing wrong” and that they’re the same lovable character as always, because the alternative is admitting your favorite character is no longer someone you like and for some people that’s too painful.
Second is that I think some viewers have genuinely fallen for Laudna’s manipulation tactics. I noticed that Laudna used a very classic manipulation technique, which was escalating the emotional stakes to make people uncomfortable. Manipulators often do this to get people to go along with what they want, because we humans are hardwired to be conflict avoidant in social settings. So when someone ratchets up the emotional conflict with a clear out of “this will ratchet down if you give me what I want” (in this case giving her Otohan’s sword and not blaming her for what just happened) then people often instinctively want to give that person what they want. And in this case I think Marisha played it so well that it triggered an avoidance response not just in the group but also in some of the fans who were really deeply invested in the scene.
I’ll also point out in support of this that Marisha in the past has alluded that she was once a victim of abuse and that it was someone she once deeply cared for. So I think Marisha is playing this out very deliberately to show just how awful and destructive a person you once trusted and loved turning emotionally abusive can be. Some of these details are so uncomfortable because Marisha probably has seen it firsthand. And for a lot of viewers I think they don’t have experience dealing with that particular type of abusive personality so they want to ignore it.
As someone who was once a big fan of Laudna, it’s been heartbreaking seeing where she’s been going. But I definitely have to give mad props to Marisha for crafting a masterful tragedy and corruption arc based on all too real real world scenarios. I hate tragedies and corruption arcs and I hate that it’s happening to one of my favorite characters, but I still have to respect the craft on display here. And I hope some day others can too
@@hfar_in_the_sky She doest not manipulate others just because shes evil shes litterally an addict at this point and *thats* why people still have empathy for her, its different than babying
@@jobyebye2237 Hmmm. And yet when your actions are inherently selfish, harmful to others, and a betrayal of other people’s trust in you, is that not still “evil” though? There’s a difference between being sympathetic and being justified, and you can still feel empathetic towards someone while still condemning their actions.
I and others have sympathy for Laudna but do not condone her actions because while we can understand why she did what she did that does not justify her actions are being emotionally manipulative *of her own friends.* There are a handful of fans though who DO want to forgive Laudna or pretend that she was justified, and those fans are indeed babying Laudna. And Laudna does not need babying right now. She needs a hard wake-up call and a proverbial slap to the face because she is very much lost in her sauce
She didn’t want to hurt Orym but she still did it. She should have fez up and admitted the real reason why she wanted it. She kept on gaslighting orym with the how dare you bring that sword in here. Just ask, if orym ignored you the first time, ask again. Not steal, blind and attack a sleeping friend over a sword. Babying. 😂
In Laudna’s defense, Fearne has also done really creepy stuff to people and their stuff while they were sleeping.
I think the important factor is that Fearne used to do that but hasn’t anymore. Which is a good thing because they’ve all been through some serious shit, so expecting an ambush in your sleep is not unreasonable. Which I like to think is part of why Fearne stopped being a creepy nightstalker
Ngl Laudna (not Marisha, big difference that some people apparently are failing to realize) is entirely in the wrong here lol
Naive take
@@MissYoonyulcorrect take
Ngl, if I were in Laudna’s shoes and saw one of my very best friends walk in with the sword that killed me on his back I’d _absolutely_ see that as a slap in the face and suspect that something was up. Marissa killed the RP here!
Orym had more stake and history with that than anyone. Ottahan killed his father and Spouce. Also who tf else is gonna use it if not the fighter in the party.
Sword is a weapon, thats what weapons do.
That is fair. However, I’d personally say the reasonable thing to do would be to talk it out with your friend rather than listening to the shade of your emotionally abusive murderer. And even more so, the best way to handle the situation after getting caught would be to apologize. Like an actual “I’m sorry.”
So while I can understand a bit of Laudna’s motivation, it’s hard to find sympathy
@@hfar_in_the_sky not even, the party should have gone after her so bad for this, why is she even listening to Delilah at all? SHE IS EVIL! Orym has every right and claim to that blade and honestly he should get her fancy back pack fixed too.
the sword killed him, his father and law, and his husband. his trauma with the weapon is far greater then ladna by a landslide..
It felt like Marisha was hoping the group would let this happen bc it would be a cool moment. Once PvP starts, it gets real dicey to just "let them have their moment".
I love the drama and tension and I doubt they'd change it, but Marisha's side comment at the end of the episode made it seem like she thought the fight was unnecessary
I dunno, *I* think Marisha was eating it up either way. And that little side comment of hers at the end was her playing up the "person with an addictive personality guilt tripping people into giving them what they want"
I have to open this by saying that i LOVEEEEED this scene and I loved the choices Liam and Marisha made. Need to make that clear before going into the content and the messages that the characters, not the players, discussed.
Orym babies himself too much and keeps saying "I'm just the quick little guy" when he's one of the most dangerous fighters they have. The shock and pain of the initial attack was scary, but after seeing all the damage he inflicted on Laudna, he can't pretend that he's just babygirl. And then, he tried diminishing Laudna's experience as though she chose to be a vessel for Delilah and continued to be manipulated by her.
I don't agree that Orym had a right to the sword. It doesn't just automatically undo all the suffering that Otohan wrought with it because they maybe can kill Ludinus with its blade. I agree with Laudna's original point that he should've talked with the group before singlehandedly deciding that he was going to hold onto the blade. It wasn't right of him, and he just wanted his poetic justice, his perfect vengeance, without thinking about how him wielding that blade could affect the other members of his party that were felled by it.
Orym always will make excuses for why he's justified until he finally gets what he wants, and then, when he realizes he isn't satisfied, has to learn how to move on and process properly. Otohan's death should've satisfied him. But it didn't. Because he didn't get the final blow. Now, he's moving the goalpost and saying that Ludinus is the one who needs to die for his husband and dad to be avenged. Until he realizes that he's falling into a darkness not unlike Laudna's more things like this will happen where he gets to draw lines and make decisions about his revenge and nobody can say anything about it otherwise.
Also Dorian... girl take a seat. You can't let Orym have the sword and put profound meaning to it, and then tell Laudna that she put too much meaning into the sword and it's just a thing and Orym should have it. His bias for his boyfriend is showing, which, love, but also girl you're out of your depth in this conversation.
I mean, Dorian wasn't wrong though. At the end of the day, the sword was just a thing and shouldn't be something that divided them.
Which was why the party found it super weird that Laudna was making such a big deal out of it. Like basically threatening to end friendships. Over a sword. So in that regard, Dorian was completely right and in a way was indirectly calling Laudna out on her BS. Because going full nuclear diva over a sword and accusing people of obsessing over something you're clearly obsessing over is some serious BS.
Now, we know why Laudna did it, because it was her addiction talking and not her reason. But doesn't mean it's any less BS. And that an old friend saying a friendship shouldn't be ended over a stupid object isn't any less true
@@hfar_in_the_sky I think you're really misrepresenting what Laudna was doing and saying. She wasn't threatening to end friendships. She was telling Orym that he shouldn't have casually wielded such a dark blade and that it should probably be destroyed. Of course, she also was looking to absorb it because she thought that was the best way to handle it, but she wasn't going to end their friendship over it. She was saying "hey, it's really weird that you walked in here wearing that sword without talking to us. It should be destroyed or absorbed."
I also don't agree that Dorian is still correct because while his major point was not to let items get in the way of friendships, his answer wasn't to agree with Laudna and destroy it, it was to allow Orym to apply his own meaning to it, keep it, and wield it how he saw fit.
If anything, Orym is the one who is letting the sword get in between all of them. Orym decided that the sword meant more to him than it did everyone else, and so he had sole rights to decide how it was used even though Laudna was killed by it, and almost everyone else almost died by it.
While Laudna was being manipulated and perhaps took things too far, I don't believe that she was being a "nuclear diva" just because she thought it was unfair of Orym to make a decision like that without consulting everyone. If the spell had gone off like she'd intended, this would have been an entirely different situation. We only got the situation we did because her spell didn't go off as planned. (And before the girlies come in with the "Well, Actually, the spell says you can ignore certain targets," that was clearly a misstep by Marisha because she said multiple times that she would've used blight as it wouldn't have affected him.)
@@doctorgod5292 Except Laudna was basically choosing to threaten her friendship with everyone over it. She at any point could have de-escalated the situation. She could have tried to give Orym a good reason why letting her absorb the blade was a good idea. She could have asked that the blade go into the hole and that they shelve it until they figure out what to do with it. Hell, a lot of the rest of the party were even trying to give her outs to de-escalate the situation.
But she didn't.
And she didn't because she WANTED the sword. And she wanted it bad. She wanted it more than she actually cared about de-escalating the situation. Which makes sense when you look at her actions from the POV of an addict trying to feed their addiction. Which Matt and Marisha themselves have said on 4-Sided Dive is basically Laudna's character arc at this point.
So yeah, she was being a nuclear diva, because she wasn't acting for the interest of the party. She was acting out of her own selfish addiction at the expense of the rest of the party. SHE was allowing a thing to drive a wedge between her and the rest of her friends. And Dorian knew it. Orym knew it. I think all of them knew it in the end. They all to some degree or another tried to keep the fences mended. She just wanted the sword, because that was what would feed her addiction.
It's very sad, but also very understandable. It'd be foolish to think that we're dealing with a reasonable Laudna at this time, because we're not. This is Laudna thoroughly lost in her own addiction and it's starting to warp her relationships with everyone around her. Because sadly that's what serious addiction often does
@@hfar_in_the_sky My point isn't that Laudna is acting correctly, it's that Orym is doing the same exact thing as her, he just doesn't have Delilah whispering in his head. He doesn't actually have a good reason to wield the blade either, but he thinks that its his right to wield it because it's for his quest of vengeance.
Orym has put weight and emphasis on this blade because of his history and he thinks that his loss is greater so he's the only one who gets to decide how it's used. And Dorian, instead of clocking that Orym's also flawed in his argument, is just siding with Orym because of his bias.
It was wrong of Orym to decide that he'd wield the blade without talking with anyone, and that was Laudna's original issue. Everything after that was Delilah manipulating her.
Even after everything de-escalates and some of the party say that they think he maybe shouldn't wield the blade since it's so dark, and we don't have super confirmation on its actual sentience or not, he puts it back into the vines, fully intending to use it.
So sure, maybe Laudna wasn't being overly reasonable, but she also fully thought that Orym was being corrupted by an evil blade that curses its wielders. Whether Delilah is lying, she was trying to protect her friends. Her first thought probably wasn't to reason with someone that she believed was being enticed by the curse of the blade.
@@doctorgod5292 Saying that Orym carrying the sword is the same as Laudna effectively deciding she can't trust her teammate, literally going behind his back to take matters into her own hands without talking to him, and then trying to manipulate the party to let her have to feed her own dark desire is wild.
Orym explained why he could use the sword to do good and to protect them all. And then he only asked that Laudna give him a good reason why she should absorb it. Because when you catch your friend salivating over a supposed "cursed object" after they tried to steal it in your sleep, you don't just go "Oh sure! I'll just let you have it!" You quite reasonably ask them "Why?"
Orym is not an unreasonable person. He's a overly self effacing and emotionally broken soldier with unresolved PTSD and a massive, barely contained martyr complex, but he's not unreasonable when it comes to his friends. If he was genuinely convinced that Laudna could put it to better use than he could and it wouldn't corrupt her in some way, he would've given it to her in a heartbeat.
Laudna meanwhile decided that somehow this man who literally would give his life for her or anyone else "couldn't be trusted with it." Which is a absolutely wild leap of logic, but it makes sense for someone suffering from crippling addiction looking for a justification for their actions. And that's what all of Laudna's "outrage" is: justification for her adiction.
I'm just saying, Orym and Dorian aren't the ones you should be condemning right now. Our favorite spooky girl has a lot of BS going on with her that she really needs to be called out on
lol so once again laudna is the focus lol
I mean, poor Orym right? he's lost so much...but so did Laudna, he's mad he got hurt but the one bleeding was Laudna, he got the sword that was not his to have without checking how the party would feel and then he decided to get sassy and tell Laudna about her darkness but while Laudna did not choose Delilah but he's choosing the sword that has a much darker history...so no, i don't think poor Orym and don't think he was fair, he was just a brat
I mean, Orym got ATTACKED by someone trying to steal an incredibly powerful sword in the middle of the night. And then it turned out to be his friend being super weird and cagey who then piles on a MOUNTAIN of guilt just out of nowhere. If it had really bothered her, she could have brought it up earlier rather than trying to STEAL IT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.
Plus put yourself in his shoes. Your friend tries to steal a cursed artifact that you're currently safekeeping and won't tell you why they want it so bad. You've already dealt with mind control and impersonations multiple times and you also know this friend was once possessed and forced to do things by a incredibly powerful evil wizard possessing her. At that moment WHY WOULD YOU TRUST THEM WITHOUT A VALID EXPLANATION? *ESPECIALLY* WHEN THEY'RE ACTING MEGA SUS?
So let's not act like this is all on Orym here, because frankly this wasn't Laudna actually acting reasonable in the slightest even if she wasn't acting on magical addiction.
Laudna is mentally ill and under the control of an insane necromancer, and she's attacking her "friends" in their sleep. Orym picked up a sword. They are not the same.
@@hfar_in_the_sky the funny thing is, she did bring it up, he just didn't care
@@dashpepito2318 She brought it up AFTER she got caught trying to steal it. And in an incredibly shifty way. Which at that point Orym was more preoccupied that his friend just cast a withering spell on him and was trying to steal a magic sword in the dead of night. Because that is a fucking weird thing for your friend to do.
So unless you're actually buying into all that manipulative stuff Laudna said when she got caught in order to deflect from massive breach of trust she just commited, I don't know what to tell you. Because trying to spin this as if Orym is somehow responsible for what happened is wild.
Especially since we know it wasn't actually because she was upset over the sword that she did what she did. She wanted to feed her magic addiction and was angry she got caught
Just tell me how is the evil sword better fed to delilah The evil mage that can take over any sec than orym wielding it?😂
I hope Orym puts Laudna down for good one day.
Oooh time for another "Liam has a cool artefact and Marisha thinks she knows better than him what to do with it" episode.
No
ORYM has a cool artifact and LAUDNA thinks she knows better etc
The players are playing, acting, and having a great time with each other
@@greathouseofdel I feel like so many fans forget that most of the cast of Critical Role are trained actors and that most of them are unrepentant theater kids who LOVE playing out drama between their characters. Because let's be real, when has a group of theater loving actors ever NOT loved sinking their teeth into some good character drama?
@@hfar_in_the_sky SAME
as a theatre kid, the drama is SO EXQUISITE
I think they meant similar situation in Campaign 2 between Caleb (Liam) and Beau (Marisha). Beau was a bit agresive about Caleb's approach. And same as here, I found Caleb's/Liam's behaviour much more reasonable and innocent than Beau's/Marisha's anger about it.
So they pointed out that Liam and Marisha like and create this kind of situations repeatedly.
I would argue it started with “Liam makes the executive decision again to keep a powerful item for himself before discussing it with the group” first. And before ya’ll come for me, Robbie, Laura, Marisha, and Matt actually talk about Liam’s penchant for that on 4 Sided Dive - with Robbie being the one to ascribe it to the PLAYER Liam and not the CHARACTER Orym. It’s p telling when he can observe that while having only played with them for a fraction of the time. Also, I love Liam O’Brien! He is at the root of some of the best rp CR has ever had. He is kind and supportive and makes fighters look like the coolest class when we know that’s not usually the case. I’m just pointing out that that is his player flaw. We all have one
You know it’s a serious moment when nobody, not even LAURA laughs at the word “sheath” 😅🫨