As been said in many places and by many people there is stability and there is stability. There are different type of stability and Rec kayak generally would have very high primary stability or how stable it is when it is horizontal on a fleet water. How can you feel it? Can you step in to kayak on the water and feel safe and stable? With sea kayak (don’t try it) likely you will be in the water before you know it. Then there is a secondary stability; how stable is kayak when put on edge. Rec kayak will likely capsize (there are obviously many different boats clumped in rec kayak category) if you even be able to put it on edge. Sea kayak will happily stay on edge and be quite stable. Of corse there are different hull shapes from round, V, hard or soft chines to bland of the above so in all cases you need to try it. Key is being flexible and relaxed, sea kayak spends most of it’s time on edge or at least edging. If you relaxed and can move your lover body separately from upper body you will learn how to be stable. When you are buying kayak and feel it is tippy that feeling likely to pass as you get more comfortable in it. In most cases try before you buy is best advice. Take classes and paddle with group where you are comfortable and can explore edging and such without putting yourself in danger. Ability to roll or at least be good at self / assisted rescue is the ultimate enabler to explore your kayak design strength and limitations. Perhaps there is no best boat or even best design (or we all will have it), is what you do, where you do it, what you want to do and who you are. Boat is your tool to accomplish it. There is a place for sledge hammer and jewelers hammer, both are hammers.
I also have to explain this very often. This is probably the easiest explanation through generalizations that I've come across yet. I'll often also explain that tippy will later be referred to as responsive. Great explanation!
I’m a recreational kayaker and looking to try sea kayaks and found your page. Such a great place to get info and the way you explained this was incredible! Thank you!
I love the visuals! I explain it to my students as being like a 2×6 plank on the water at one extreme and a pop bottle at the other extreme. The plank is fine as long as the water is flat, but once the waves come up we want to give up some of that primary stability in favour of some secondary stability. We all need to find the compromise that we're happy with and suits the conditions that we paddle, and have some secondary stability in reserve for when the weather changes and we find ourselves in rougher water than we expected.
Good explanation. I often liken it to the difference between a sheet of plywood versus a log. The plywood will react side to side by every wave. However, a log will react like an elevator, riding up and down with the waves.
Love the plain English explanation with the cutouts! It makes a lot of sense. We have a regular fishing boat with a deep V hull. So even though our fishing boat is only 18 feet it’s quite capable in swells and moves easily through waves, even though it does feel quite tippy. I can imagine a kayak with a V chime behaving the same way.
Choosing between hard chine eddy line rio and deltas 12S with multi chines. Essentially I am a beginner with 6 trips completed. Boat will be used in lakes and inshore paddling. Thank you Kayak Hipster
Nice clear thoughts. I use to explain this like a ball vs a dock. The ball moves up without pitch around while a dock pitches when standing on it. To make the ball slightly more stable is sitting on bottom lowering center of gravity plus some outer sections called a chine to give a second section to edge onto. This second edge would allow for a 2nd smaller ball to help with balance. Rocker is another interesting concept to explore but its probably a lot to bring in with this focused conversation of round vs flat. For those reading rocker is the distance the bow or stern is raised. Think of a banana or rocking chair. This is to allow #1 turning #2 up and over waves or current. Some white water boaters love less rocker and volume for playboating. So back to hull design. Now, things get really interesting when an object is in motion using hydrodynamic theory and the bernouli effect (used when edge turning a sea kayak). There are three phases of motion generally for a kayak that effects them from what I have abserved. 1) smooth glide 2) planning on surface with some aerated bubbles 3) fully aerated. In #1 smooth glide the idea of ball vs dock holds up. In #2 under higher speeds, the boat starts stay on the surface giving a very loose feel. Often on a wave. #3 fully aerated the boat will feel like it's on ball bearings and can be moved all around in different directions with the right control. The flat bottom boats will plan out and help us feel stable but if the boat is to wide we can't control easily (like a big flat dock vs a playboat) and the edge will catch the fast water and flip. The same may apply for a really wide round boat. There needs to be a balance tied to the kayaker being able to control the kayak with body meaning not to wide, not to little rocker and not to low of a deck. Anyways, lots of concepts to think about with water and the various phases and how speed changes the stability of a boat in various sea states. It's why I own different boats for different situations. I recommend asking friends about possible conditions and getting the right boat. Another simple and important topic is floatation :)
Hey, could you do a video for beginner kayakers? like everything about how what kind of kayak to get(like the diff designs and how to decide which fits you), gear, and other beginner tips? I am looking into all this and there hasn't really been a definitive guide. Thanks!
Great video. Been waiting for one like that for a while now. I fish a Jackson Kraken and while on flat water they are a little tippy but when a boat goes bye and tries to wake you out, you will really appreciate that secondary stability to ride the wake out and not go for an unscheduled swim. Be safe⚓️
nunya bizness I also fish the gulf coast. It sounds to me you’re looking for something to get you btb to drop bait for sharks. If you’re looking for inexpensive yak that’ll get you there. I’d look at ocean kayak or any kayak that is an ocean type yak. Many companies make a version of that. Jackson Krakens. Native slayers. Ocean kayaks. You can find many of these used and much cheaper. Good luck and be safe⚓️
Did you ever try to design your own kayak hull (I did, V-shape DIY plywood. I'm not satisfied/ There are problems with it. it is hard to be without rear fin)
TY, very informative. Tour amazon page doesn't rec any boats, just accessories. I am looking for a sit on top exclusively for yakking fishing baits out BTB on fairly calm days in the Gulf of Mexico. I weigh 260# and the baits at weights on the stern will weigh about 10#. Four separate baits/weights will be bugneed to a board attached to the stern. I have a fiend who uses an aluminum hulled rowboat and he has big power with those oars. I prefer a self bailing sit on top, I don't need a heavy expensive fishing kayak with rod holder everywhere, the rods will stay on shore in freespool. Any specific recommendations? Anyone?
Great video, makes a lot of sense....I love the high budget graphics btw..hahaha...hopefully people don't use sit-in 10 footers in big swells or white water...as a newbie I greatly appreciated the explanation.
Look at the hull of your 'sit on top' fishing kayak. Normally they have wider (some are 36" wide) and flatter hulls. So you have a strong primary but weak secondary. The purpose of a fishing kayak in general is to 'fish' and that to me means stability is most important. The norm fishing kayak made today are wider, seats are higher out of the hull and the higher end market for fishing kayaks boast that you can not tip or flip it over is normal conditions. Going to be slow as hell in the water but in most flat water conditions you do not feel any rock side to side. They are also good moving into smaller waves caused by the wind. They are very poor with dealing with waves coming at you on the sides of your kayak. It feels like the water is going to flip your kayak for sure. Again this is the problem with very strong primary and very week secondary. Its even worse when the chop is great close to shore where you feel you getting battered on both sides of you kayak.
The reason a stable kayak is not better in the rough is because the water will do whatever it wants to do. You better be able to move with it. That means the kayak needs to be fit to be a part of you, however you do that. Different shapes can work in different ways.
You have great videos! That said, I think the old dogma about tippy boats being better in rough water is just that: dogma. You admit as much yourself when you talk about WW boats. You might also have mentioned that stable barges like the OK Frenzy or Scrambler (both wide SOTs) can be really fun in rough water. Ditto the Delphin, which is has very flat profile for much of its length. Some of the Mariner designs (I'm thinking the Express and Coaster) also had flat profiles for much of their length. I think the reason people gravitate to tippier Brit boats (like several of the kayaks in your video - your Sterling boat notwithstanding) is cultural/aesthetic. If you like the look and feel of a skinny boat with pointy ends, you just like it. It's not better, it's just your preference.
I always feel like the word "tippy" conveys such a scary idea to any relatively or totally new paddler....often people are averse to "tippy" boats...the language is dichotomous on this subject, but reality is not....kinda tough for me on the semantics.....I like the video though.....
As been said in many places and by many people there is stability and there is stability. There are different type of stability and Rec kayak generally would have very high primary stability or how stable it is when it is horizontal on a fleet water. How can you feel it? Can you step in to kayak on the water and feel safe and stable? With sea kayak (don’t try it) likely you will be in the water before you know it. Then there is a secondary stability; how stable is kayak when put on edge. Rec kayak will likely capsize (there are obviously many different boats clumped in rec kayak category) if you even be able to put it on edge. Sea kayak will happily stay on edge and be quite stable. Of corse there are different hull shapes from round, V, hard or soft chines to bland of the above so in all cases you need to try it. Key is being flexible and relaxed, sea kayak spends most of it’s time on edge or at least edging. If you relaxed and can move your lover body separately from upper body you will learn how to be stable. When you are buying kayak and feel it is tippy that feeling likely to pass as you get more comfortable in it. In most cases try before you buy is best advice. Take classes and paddle with group where you are comfortable and can explore edging and such without putting yourself in danger. Ability to roll or at least be good at self / assisted rescue is the ultimate enabler to explore your kayak design strength and limitations. Perhaps there is no best boat or even best design (or we all will have it), is what you do, where you do it, what you want to do and who you are. Boat is your tool to accomplish it. There is a place for sledge hammer and jewelers hammer, both are hammers.
The cut out drawings do the trick. Nice combination with the imagenes shoot in the reality. Thanks for your videos, I always watch them
I also have to explain this very often. This is probably the easiest explanation through generalizations that I've come across yet. I'll often also explain that tippy will later be referred to as responsive. Great explanation!
I’ve been wanting to make a video on stability for a while. You just did a fantastic job making it easy to understand. Bravo.
EXCELLENT EXPLANATION for this newbie!!! Thanks!!!
In all seriousness, the low-tech graphics are perfect.
Freaking great animation with the cut paper shapes to explain this concept!
I’m a recreational kayaker and looking to try sea kayaks and found your page. Such a great place to get info and the way you explained this was incredible! Thank you!
I love the visuals! I explain it to my students as being like a 2×6 plank on the water at one extreme and a pop bottle at the other extreme. The plank is fine as long as the water is flat, but once the waves come up we want to give up some of that primary stability in favour of some secondary stability. We all need to find the compromise that we're happy with and suits the conditions that we paddle, and have some secondary stability in reserve for when the weather changes and we find ourselves in rougher water than we expected.
Good explanation. I often liken it to the difference between a sheet of plywood versus a log. The plywood will react side to side by every wave. However, a log will react like an elevator, riding up and down with the waves.
Love the plain English explanation with the cutouts! It makes a lot of sense. We have a regular fishing boat with a deep V hull. So even though our fishing boat is only 18 feet it’s quite capable in swells and moves easily through waves, even though it does feel quite tippy. I can imagine a kayak with a V chime behaving the same way.
Choosing between hard chine eddy line rio and deltas 12S with multi chines. Essentially I am a beginner with 6 trips completed. Boat will be used in lakes and inshore paddling. Thank you Kayak Hipster
Nice clear thoughts. I use to explain this like a ball vs a dock. The ball moves up without pitch around while a dock pitches when standing on it. To make the ball slightly more stable is sitting on bottom lowering center of gravity plus some outer sections called a chine to give a second section to edge onto. This second edge would allow for a 2nd smaller ball to help with balance. Rocker is another interesting concept to explore but its probably a lot to bring in with this focused conversation of round vs flat. For those reading rocker is the distance the bow or stern is raised. Think of a banana or rocking chair. This is to allow #1 turning #2 up and over waves or current. Some white water boaters love less rocker and volume for playboating. So back to hull design. Now, things get really interesting when an object is in motion using hydrodynamic theory and the bernouli effect (used when edge turning a sea kayak). There are three phases of motion generally for a kayak that effects them from what I have abserved. 1) smooth glide 2) planning on surface with some aerated bubbles 3) fully aerated. In #1 smooth glide the idea of ball vs dock holds up. In #2 under higher speeds, the boat starts stay on the surface giving a very loose feel. Often on a wave. #3 fully aerated the boat will feel like it's on ball bearings and can be moved all around in different directions with the right control. The flat bottom boats will plan out and help us feel stable but if the boat is to wide we can't control easily (like a big flat dock vs a playboat) and the edge will catch the fast water and flip. The same may apply for a really wide round boat. There needs to be a balance tied to the kayaker being able to control the kayak with body meaning not to wide, not to little rocker and not to low of a deck. Anyways, lots of concepts to think about with water and the various phases and how speed changes the stability of a boat in various sea states. It's why I own different boats for different situations. I recommend asking friends about possible conditions and getting the right boat. Another simple and important topic is floatation :)
The cut outs and wave drawings are great!
Thanks for sharing our channel. We have some new videos in the works and are stoked to share them.
Hey, could you do a video for beginner kayakers? like everything about how what kind of kayak to get(like the diff designs and how to decide which fits you), gear, and other beginner tips? I am looking into all this and there hasn't really been a definitive guide. Thanks!
I just shared this to Paddle Newfoundland and Labradors facebook page.
We deal with rough water as a matter of course.
This is an excellent video.
Good one Luke! I try to tell, especially beginners, how this works. You explain it in an easy way here. Great!
Really well made introduction to why a sea kayak is so tippy at first!
THANK YOU. Yes, primary and Secondary stability. I like the way describe it so people understand!!!
Another great video!
Simple, clear, and great visuals.
Bravo!
Thanks, as a beginner to kayaking I very much enjoy your videos. Great way for me to better understand my new hobby and feel more comfortable with it.
Mr Llamaface - Me too. I was wondering if I bought the wrong kayak but can see now that I just need more experience with my sea kayak.
EXCELLENT INSTRUCTIONS....
im picky about instructional vids to the point of prickishnous...
Well Done.
Excellent explanation! Hopefully folks looking grow with kayaking can make an informed decision!👍👍👍👍👍👍
Great explanation of how this all works.
Great video with clear and concise overview...the cut-out drawings are pretty sweet too!
Great visuals. This is my type of learning style. Thanks for sharing 🙏🏻
spot on and well explained
Great video. Been waiting for one like that for a while now. I fish a Jackson Kraken and while on flat water they are a little tippy but when a boat goes bye and tries to wake you out, you will really appreciate that secondary stability to ride the wake out and not go for an unscheduled swim. Be safe⚓️
please see my question above about the best bait yakking boat to buy
nunya bizness I also fish the gulf coast. It sounds to me you’re looking for something to get you btb to drop bait for sharks. If you’re looking for inexpensive yak that’ll get you there. I’d look at ocean kayak or any kayak that is an ocean type yak. Many companies make a version of that. Jackson Krakens. Native slayers. Ocean kayaks. You can find many of these used and much cheaper. Good luck and be safe⚓️
@@pinefloatoutdoors Thanks, you're right. I slayed the hard tail spanish mackerel today
Did you ever try to design your own kayak hull (I did, V-shape DIY plywood. I'm not satisfied/ There are problems with it. it is hard to be without rear fin)
Thanks for helping
TY, very informative. Tour amazon page doesn't rec any boats, just accessories. I am looking for a sit on top exclusively for yakking fishing baits out BTB on fairly calm days in the Gulf of Mexico. I weigh 260# and the baits at weights on the stern will weigh about 10#. Four separate baits/weights will be bugneed to a board attached to the stern. I have a fiend who uses an aluminum hulled rowboat and he has big power with those oars. I prefer a self bailing sit on top, I don't need a heavy expensive fishing kayak with rod holder everywhere, the rods will stay on shore in freespool. Any specific recommendations? Anyone?
Excellent, clear explanation
Nice animation for having a low budget😜. Great info
great explanation as always mate
Right on, Great info ..
That was a great explanation I learned something.
Great video, makes a lot of sense....I love the high budget graphics btw..hahaha...hopefully people don't use sit-in 10 footers in big swells or white water...as a newbie I greatly appreciated the explanation.
Perfect!
Very well explained 👍
Thanks for sharing with us...
Awesome! Thank you
How does this change for 'sit on top' fishing kayaks?
Look at the hull of your 'sit on top' fishing kayak. Normally they have wider (some are 36" wide) and flatter hulls. So you have a strong primary but weak secondary. The purpose of a fishing kayak in general is to 'fish' and that to me means stability is most important. The norm fishing kayak made today are wider, seats are higher out of the hull and the higher end market for fishing kayaks boast that you can not tip or flip it over is normal conditions. Going to be slow as hell in the water but in most flat water conditions you do not feel any rock side to side. They are also good moving into smaller waves caused by the wind. They are very poor with dealing with waves coming at you on the sides of your kayak. It feels like the water is going to flip your kayak for sure. Again this is the problem with very strong primary and very week secondary. Its even worse when the chop is great close to shore where you feel you getting battered on both sides of you kayak.
Great info., good tips. Thank you. 🤙
Just subbed! 👍
I agree a lot with the video
The reason a stable kayak is not better in the rough is because the water will do whatever it wants to do. You better be able to move with it. That means the kayak needs to be fit to be a part of you, however you do that. Different shapes can work in different ways.
A stable kayak will also be more difficult to roll back upright if it's upside down, while a "tippy" kayak will roll up easier.
good job
You have great videos! That said, I think the old dogma about tippy boats being better in rough water is just that: dogma. You admit as much yourself when you talk about WW boats. You might also have mentioned that stable barges like the OK Frenzy or Scrambler (both wide SOTs) can be really fun in rough water. Ditto the Delphin, which is has very flat profile for much of its length. Some of the Mariner designs (I'm thinking the Express and Coaster) also had flat profiles for much of their length.
I think the reason people gravitate to tippier Brit boats (like several of the kayaks in your video - your Sterling boat notwithstanding) is cultural/aesthetic. If you like the look and feel of a skinny boat with pointy ends, you just like it. It's not better, it's just your preference.
I always feel like the word "tippy" conveys such a scary idea to any relatively or totally new paddler....often people are averse to "tippy" boats...the language is dichotomous on this subject, but reality is not....kinda tough for me on the semantics.....I like the video though.....
My pa 12 is fat friendly
Dude needs more bracelets.
Great video with clear and concise overview...the cut-out drawings are pretty sweet too!