Hey Ivan, like a lot of other commenters, the Napa legend battery is not a EFP battery. That's probably why it failed in 3 years. It's normal for batteries out here in Vegas to not last more than 3 years so to me that's normal LOL. The dashboard will read battery is charging until the next time the vehicle is started up after being shut down. Once the vehicle does the initial start with a battery voltage higher than the spec during cranking found in the repair manual the system will begin auto stop start operation. Let your customer know there may be a setting found in the instrument cluster, on the far right hand side under the settings cog it will be under vehicle settings. The owner should be able to override the system completely without having to press the button each time the vehicle is operated. You can change the default behavior. You can also do this on your scan tool by clicking the customize tab on the top left hand corner when you're on the system topology page and the launch scanner will then search the car for features that can be customized and that is one of them amongst many others. The camshaft position codes are pretty normal when you have a failing battery. At the 1 minute Mark in your video I instantly knew it was a battery problem. We actually had a customer who had a similar scenario happen to her, her battery had a shorted cell. The issue was the vehicle stopped charging the battery while cruising on the highway and the battery could not sustain the current and the vehicle cut out while driving. She had no power assisted brakes or steering and was not familiar with operating a vehicle like that. She was really concerned, normally I would say it's completely fine for the charging system to cycle on and off while cruising at a steady speed to save fuel, that lady just had a rare type of battery failure that allowed the vehicle to completely lose power. Now on the dealership side of things the auto stop start systems have been really problem free, anytime a customer has a problem it's just throwing a new battery and they're good to go for another 3 years. (Vegas normal) Awesome video and good catch! Sucks that you spent some time getting there but you're educating the masses and I love it.
Many thanks for the insight, Sean! You're right, we're seeing MANY more weird battery-related failures than ever before due to these start-stop and "smart" charging systems! 😬 Good batteries used to last almost 10 years... Now it's down to 3 years... What a colossal waste of resources and harm to the environment 😢
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics had a customer come in I worked at AutoZone when I was 18 and his duralast battery was 12 years old and he was just replacing it. I'm sure melting down the lead and recycling it every 3 years is better for the environment, not to mention disposal of the sulfuric acid component. Oh and silver and calcium metal recycling as well. I'm sure it's much better for the environment. Working at the dealer I am glad to tell customers they just need a new battery, and it'll fix all their problems. I can only imagine the anxiety people have about their repair cost. A failing battery will cause the ABS and VSC and traction lights to come on, The electric parking brake will malfunction and stay locked on sometimes because the battery voltage drop on crank causes the ABS module to freak out. You can't design a vehicle around the battery always being in excellent condition. They degrade! Some unlucky customers have to replace their radio in their car because the eprom gets screwed up from power cycling. Freaking sucks man!
I have a Toyota Highlander. The first thing i did was to buy a doodad on Ebay that you plug into the fusebox and to the Auto Start Stop Switch, and it Permanently Shuts off the Auto Start Stop . It's great!
in fact, the centuries-old lead acid cell is the most rugged and forgiving and will absorb high voltage better than most. It's discharge/recharge and power density attributes make it undesirable for high power drain applications. But it's definitely not going to be "hammered".
AGM battery, never heard of EFB. (Just looked it up, enhanced flooded battery). But yes, a regular flooded lead acid battery will get smoked by start/stop. When the engine is off the car will pull over 30A from the battery and over time that wears it out. A regular battery is only intended for starting an engine, not delivering significant power and then recharging.
EFB or AGM battery , needs to be start stop specific, and many cars also need to be programmed to the new battery, otherwise the charge curve will be based on an old depleted battery.
Exactly, always start with the power source when troubleshooting. Never assume a battery is good based on age. I did this on our vehicles error code and it ended up being a bad battery. Car is supposed to be an AGM type and the dealer installed a standard 12 month "flooded cell" type. failed in less than one year. The new Napa AGM is working fine for over a year now.
As soon as I heard the battery had been changed, I thought wrong battery. Without a start/stop specific battery, the battery Ivan installed will have a short life too.
Uh-Oh. Ivan....."Ivan, help....we be in Philly, now, it's 2am.....Quick....Bring something else, besides a new battery.....Help....Help....we be surrounded....Help!!!"
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Not a scam. Car and battery manufacturers specify either an EFB or AGM battery to cope with the high demands of stop start. They also opine that using a conventional lead acid battery will lead to a deterioration in the battery and breakdown.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'd go one better, and if possible, just disable auto stop-start. What a stupid feature. People are commenting about AGM/stop-start specific batteries, I get it, but starting an engine isn't very deep-cycle of an action. Still. Dumb stupid pointless 'feature'.
Right, best batteries for these systems Optima Yellow or my favorite Exide Dual AGM, at some cars you need to tell your battery management system: Hey, you got a new battery, learn the parameters
2010 Highlander Hybrid - when I replaced my battery with a regular Lead-Acid battery it lasted maybe 18 months, returned it to Costco, got a new one, same thing. Grabbed an AGM battery and it has been 3 years with no issues. AGM battery is needed for these vehicles.
My wife's 2020 RAV4, with the blasted, detestable stop/start, started throwing "Low Voltage to Power Steering" messages on the display. Immediately tested the battery and it was no good, at 68% SOH. Replaced it with a new AGM battery, and problem solved. Do NOT use a conventional lead acid battery - be sure it is rated for stop-start use!
Before too long, you will be cursing the electric power steering too. They just keep getting more idiotic in what they put on vehicles today. There is NOTHING wrong with hydraulic power steering. In fact, it is so much simpler and better that it isn't on the same chart.
@@JamesAgansI would love to agree with you, but I've had 3 electric power steering vehicles since 2010 and they have been impressively smooth and trouble free. None of them have lane keep assist technology, which adds a ton of complexity.
@@JamesAgans My 2017 Mazda CX-5 has electric 'assist' steering. Bought it used in 2020 and it had a "PANASONIC" battery with all Japanese writing on it (Vehicle was built in Japan). I assume the Panasonic battery was OEM. The battery was a standard lead-acid battery and I had to replace it in 2022.
The batteries made in Japan are gonna last 5-10 years, if you correctly take care of them......was it the kind into which distilled water could be carefulling added??? These are the Best!!
Way to many years ago ovens and hobs had gas pilot lights. The UK government decided this was wasteful and commissioned the company I worked for to design a retro-fit kit for many different cooker models. The kit had to use a Piezoelectric igniter they had selected. The igniter body was made from Bakelite. The process for making a Bakelite part involves heat which at that time was normally gas. The whole project died a death when we pointed out that more gas was used firing the part than a pilot light would consume in the life of a cooker.
Geez, sounds like a safety hazard too... Without a pilot light there is an increased chance someone will leave a burner on and unlit. Creating a larger problem to solve a small problem....
This is the kind of life-cycle analysis that either isn't being done or, if it is, is not shared with the public. The public is not aware that you have to drive an EV 80,000 miles before you even break even on your carbon footprint. And all these complicated systems actually result in more pollution and expense when they break and require technical attention.
@GarthGoldberg I wouldn't even want to know how Diesel fuel and other energy it takes just to mine enough Lithium for one $60,000 Tesla, It has to be Crazy
AGM battery is what is required for any vehicle with auto start stop. Because they are deep cycle and can handle the extra load placed on the battery. But they cost a lot more then a acid flooded battery that's why people cheap out when replacing them . Also check to make sure you don't need to reset the ECM so it can recognize it has a fresh battery or it will over charge this new battery
Back in the early 2000's. my neighbor & wife were gone on vacation for a week and left their 17 y/o daughter at home. The daughter called me and said she was stranded in the family car. She said the car wouldn't start after she went "shopping" with a friend. I packed up my go-bag of tools & meters and drove to where she was. When I got in the car and turned the ignition key, the automatic seat belt (shoulder belt) moved into position around me. When I tried to start the car, the automatic seat belt retracted. Battery voltage read nearly 13 volts but when I tried cranking, it dropped to 6-7 volts. Luckily there was an auto parts store across the street so I replaced the battery. The car started right up, no problem, and she had no trouble afterwards. Later, when the neighbor returned, I checked the battery & alternator output & belt. All was good.
If it has a trailer light hookup, plug a trailer test light in, it will disable the stop/start garbage by thinking you're towing a trailer and will not shut the engine off
That’s very interesting. My wife has a 2018 and we (as in me) always just hit the no thanks button. I’ll have to consider this. I’m assuming it has no effect on transmission functions? 🤔
Another great case study, Ivan. I have a 2018 Ford Focus RS with the annoying start/stop feature. It has a huge AGM battery in it. It's possible that the NAPA battery was the incorrect battery for the car. Others have also suggested the AGM battery. They're probably on to something. Keep up the great work.
Surely the Stop/start unavailable is a symptom not the cause. This has to be battery/charging system related and probably caused by an incorrect battery type fitted, should it not be an AGM type? Is the battery even coded properly into the charging system?
We had this happen in our 2017 Highlander. In the middle of I-35. Rush hour traffic actually saved us as everyone was already stopped. Got a tow to the nearest Autozone and bought a new battery. The battery was marginal. Replacing the battery solved the problem. The start/stop is hard on the battery. Have to use an expensive AGM battery per Toyota. Weak batteries cause strange codes. Weak batteries also kill alternators. I also wish you could disable the auto start stop with a scan tool. After finishing the video: Please make sure you’re using the AGM battery on these vehicles. They hold up better, but still need replacing after 4-5 years.
It's not just weak batteries. It's batteries with a low state of charge, which includes weak batteries. Dead batteries and weak batteries take a lot of current. Most alternators aren't made to deliver high current for long periods, and they overheat. If you have to charge a dead battery, use a battery charger if you have one not jumpers to another vehicle.
@@major__kongI certainly agree, but it’s not as though “weak battery” is a technical term. A low SOC, shorted cells, and other faults all make a battery weak and put extra strain on the charging system. It’s spanked! And the battery on the vehicle likely wasn’t the right type. Cheers.
The neighbor across the road called me a few weeks ago asking if I could scan his 2018 Ford Edge as it wouldn’t turn over and has had the money light on. He knows I have the “TopDon Phoenix Plus” Scan tool so I walked over and scanned the codes. I pulled multiple codes which I believed to be caused by low battery voltage. I told him, hold on let me go grab my “TopDon BT100” battery analyzer and we’ll test your battery. Hooked the analyzer up and it said battery bad. I sent him to NAPA for a replacement and told him I would replace it for him. When he returned with the new battery he mentioned NAPA asked if he had Auto Start Stop as it takes a different battery than a normal battery. I honestly never knew there were special batteries for this. They’re definitely much more expensive when he told me the price 😳 $$$
Yeah you need a more durable battery. Usually an expensive AGM battery. They can discharge more (the load on the battery when the engine is off can easily be 30A) and they recharge faster. Using a traditional starting battery in a car with start/stop puts a lot of wear on it.... Those batteries do not like being run down and recharged repeatedly.
@@JamesAgans Hahahaha I’m the nice neighbor with the scan tool.. My neighbor should be the one not wanting to move. lololol After some bad experiences with stealerships, I bought the tools to work on my own vehicles. 👍🏼
@@volvo09 Hey Volvo, Good to know ! Yeah I never knew there were special batteries for this Start stop option. I also had to do a new battery reset so the computer knows the battery has been replaced. 👍🏼
That's what I'm saying. Or cheap out on parts. Right off on this one.. the NAPA battery. I have always stuck with the Toyota battery and they last 5 years almost to the day.
It seems like you went down a rabbit hole on this one. Many vehicles equipped with a start / stop system use an auxiliary battery, or use a specialized battery. The aftermarket battery, probably wasn’t correct. If you want to disable the auto start / stop, you can unplug the hood switch that detects the hood is open/closed.
Wow!!!! Is this True.....Unplug the hood switch to fix the issue, (Long term fix, with correct batteries, etc, in place, to be sure.....) Thanks for posting this!!!!!
@ Depending on the vehicle, yes. On the minivan Ivan was working on, the computer has to verify the hood is closed for the auto stop/start to work. If it can’t detect the status of the hood, auto stop/start is disabled.
Which is how it should be from the factory. In most normal driving, start/stop is of no benefit at all, and just wears things out way faster than needed. It only has some benefit in the most crowded of cities, when fewer cars idling means better air quality. Using the feature all the time costs more money and resources.
I was screaming here in my comfy sofa check the battery from the start :) Ivan, you made the same mistake that was made previously and was in high probability the reason the battery didn't last. Cars with start stop systems must have start stop batteries in them, that is how they come from the factory and there is a good reason why they are equipped with either EFB or AGM batteries. this new one will not last long as well.
@@throttlewatch4614 He didn't go through any diagnosis. All I heard was an old man rant about things they don't like. The code stored was for low battery voltage and it had a non-OEM battery installed. All he had to do was load test the battery as soon as he saw the stored code and put an OEM battery in when confirmed it failed the load test. He also failed to test the charging system to confirm there isn't another underlying issue. High likelihood this vehicle leaves them stranded again for the same problem in another 2-3 years.
The wrong battery type is what killed the battery, as auto start/stop will absolutely hammer a regular lead-acid battery. And auto S/S isn't really bad in itself, but it's not designed for the large gasoline-powered automatics as driven in America, for Euro spec cars with tiny engines and manual gearboxes it works very well. I drive a diesel with auto S/S and I only had to replace my battery once at 150.000 miles, but you need to keep in mind that you need a special EFB or AGM type battery which can handle larger discharge cycles.
@@gam3kidAAA is crap too. They left me stranded on the road after they only called two tow companies (their special rated ones), the companies said no, and then they stopped. Never called me back - I had to call them back at 3 am and say where's the tow truck?
As others have said the Stop/Start equipped cars should have a battery to suit, I believe some cars actually use a super capacitor to assist. I did drive a manual transmission car with Stop/Start for a few years, in traffic it had a talent for choosing bad times to stop, often for just one or two seconds since it did not know what was going on around the vehicle. Some cars can be software modified to disable the feature, though in theory you just need a timer circuit to simulate a button press a few seconds after starting the engine.
@@wallace3953 some cars have a second battery for Stop/Start too. I have some super-capacitors, amazing things but I have no idea how long term reliability is.
Looks like Toyota spec an EFB battery for this vehicle (AGM should also work, but not a standard battery). You may need to perform a reset or special function on one of the battery monitor/start stop modules too to reset the battery counters.
I’ll have to look into that again. I looked at some when my wife first got hers, but several wires had to be cut and spliced, which I prefer not to do on that vehicle. 👍
I was leery about the start/stop feature so this episode had my interest. My wife's 2019 Subaru Forester with the start/stop feature came with an OEM lead acid battery. It's been 5 years and even though it still seems to be good, I replaced it last month, October 2024, with another lead acid battery. The guy at Costco says that's the correct replacement battery. Hmmm, maybe I should have found a EFB replacement. The Subaru owners manual does not specify.
I've got a 16 Cherokee, and it took out the battery with that stupid start stop in 3 years. I replaced it and haven't had a problem with the new battery. Of course, the first thing I do when I get in is disable the start stop. I think you are spot on when you say the only thing those are good for is what the government thinks is good. Keep up the great videos and thanks from Southern Idaho.
Ivan there's a video by a Toyota technician, The Car Care Nut here on UA-cam entitled "How Does Start Stop Technology Work in Modern Cars? Everything You Need to Know". The section on "special battery" describes the battery issue this car has. It is a high draw starter and causes a large drop in voltage, it's why the battery takes so long to charge after a start. you are seeing 14v because that is the output of the alternator. If you unplug the alternator and start the engine you will see the voltage drop to less than 8v.
ua-cam.com/video/TTBN8Ic57Gg/v-deo.htmlsi=I0fVKNntTCCk214e Start Stop technology is ridiculously complicated; as described by the Car Care Nut, it's designed to mimic a hybrid. This is a must watch. BTW, when in Park or Neutral is also disabled.
The total electrical energy required to start a car doesn't depend on the type of starter lol It may draw more amps, but for a shorter amount of time :)
Brilliant as always Ivan. I personally have had great success disabling the start/stop by shorting the bonnet switch. No code thrown but no more crappy stop/start
I made for a friend a tyny module for automatic deactivation of that system :) On his car there is a LED on the button and the logic is if there is a power and the led is not on for a minute, it close the contact via transistor, which is paralel to the button contact :) He is very happy sonce he have it.
@@sw7366 Yes it is very cheap and quite simple.. I made it with arduino nano, because in the beginning i was thinking to add more features and to use the lamp for the Oil on the dash for an input, but I found out that when the car is Off the power for the ambient light is also off, so I used that to power the arduino. I was thinking to use timer and the button as an input, for disabling the module with a long press, but he said that will never use that feature :) And in the end the module is easy do disable if he just disconnect the quite big connector ( I just had a big one :D) and he like that. The car is european, but I believe it is similar for all...
I have been with your channel a few years now. Electrical a d electronic issues always scared me a bit. Your videos add to my conviction that the simplicity wins almost every time. We currently have two vehicles: a 2011 Ford Focus and a 2012 Ford Fusion 2.5L. I believe for almost all manufactures this period represents the pinnacle of simplistic technology. Sequential EFI, conventional automatic transmission, conventional power steering (except this Fusion) and normally aspirated 4 cylinder engines. If I have to replace a car I will go right back to that period.
My thought on introduction was "bad battery". It used to be that old batteries would fail to start after sitting overnight, but with today's batteries, they fail in strange ways. I agree with the other posters that this car likely takes a special battery since it doesn't seem to have a second battery for stop/start.
My wife commutes 40 miles. Last wed I told her you need to make sure you have a winter coat in the car if it breaks down you will have a coat. Thursday I was I stalling a thermostat and water pump in her cruze. I ended up taking the jeep to lunch. I stopped at DMV to get my license and of course no start. No coat either. It is also a napa legend from. 6\21 deader than door nail
A customer mine uses nothing but NAPA batteries and he has more problems with NAPA batteries. Most of the batteries fail prematurely. The battery still have voltage but when put under a load, will have a large voltage drop. I had installed a battery for him on a particular piece of equipment. He call me back a week or two later, having a problem with the same piece of equipment, and being that I had just installed a battery in it, the battery was one of the last things on my mind for a problem. Long story short I did a lot of troubleshooting and unobvious it ended up being the battery. It just goes to show you, troubleshooting wise, stick to your basics always check your power source immediately. If I had done that I’ve been out of there in 15 - 20 minutes.
Happy to hear Ivan's rant about the Start/Stop system. I had that on my Volvo V60 and got tired of it. Yes, you can turn it off but it will be on the next time you start the car. My solution was a ESP32 relay module, costing me $2.37. I programmed it so it would close and open the relay 60 seconds after the car was turned on. Wired the relay in parallel to the On/Off button so it would simulate me pressing it. Worked great !
A common issue with modern vehicles is that they aren’t engineered for longevity. The attitude from manufacturers is let’s get the new vehicles through a warranty period with a disposable life of 5 years; the typical new car finance length. A win-win for trading up!
Sadly that is true. Also the reason they claim the rediculous extended oil change intervals and often claim transmission’s never need serviced. A lot of people find out the hard way that often doesn’t turn out well.
I noticed a difference between Ford and Toyota. Ford has a battery health monitor, your Toyota did not. Apparently, Ford’s battery monitor works with the starter starting current to track the battery health. My Ford Start/Stop quit working and I did not know why. I suspected the battery so I purchased a Harbor Freight battery tester. It said 52% for a 3-4 year old original Ford AGM battery. Some time later went to Sam’s and purchased a new battery. It took over a week for the computer to sync with the new battery and restart the Start/Stop system. At least with Ford I get some warning that the battery is wearing out before I am stranded. My opinion is that new batteries do not last four years, why? Answer, they have a three year warranty.
Thank you for not just replacing the battery right away, it gave us a chance to look at diagram and data pids. The part I don't understand is not replacing with OEM battery by VIN application.
I appreciate how thorough you were in your diagnosis. I'm sure some people would just condemn the battery without looking at anything else, and in this case they would have been lucky if they did that. You took the time to try to understand this disastrous system, and looked at the data to find the problem. It did surprise me that you showed too much faith in the battery that was from Napa and was 4 yrs old. I've seen batteries from many manufactures that failed early, and I don't trust any of them anymore. Even the Federated battery that you installed only offers a 3 yr warranty, but they also sell 2 yr and 1 yr batteries and the prices have gone up significantly over the past few years. When I look up a battery for today's cars the chart ask if it has a start stop system because this system uses a different battery. I also hate this start stop feature and turn it off every time I start my car. I think there may be some cars that you can disable this feature with a scan tool, but I looked for that option on 2 of my cars and couldn't find it. The other thing to keep in mind is the life expectancy of the starter is programmed into the ECM on some or all start stop cars and from what I understand. When it sees a certain number of starts I believe it triggers a "replace starter" message, or code or both and a scan tool is needed to reset it. I'm still learning about the system but it might even turn on the check engine light??
I'm pretty sure that car needs an AGM battery. If this is the fact, the alternator will cook the lead acid battery quickly, because the charging voltage for AGM is higher than for lead acid batteries.
Ivan, you are an awesome diagnostic technician, and i have learned a great deal from watching this channel. I believe your disdain for the start/stop system skewed your diagnostic approach this time. In my area, the battery hardly lasts 3 years anymore, much less when it is a single battery being overused with a start/stop system. Also, if you had started there, you would have noticed the type of battery currently installed is incorrect for a start/stop equipped vehicle. Regardless, thanks for sharing.
You need to replace battery with one that is made for vehicles with start / stop function.Just topping up with distilled water and recharging battery fixed a friend's Mazda 3 with the stop / start message and the low battery warning
Three to five Years on batteries is normal battery life in my very long experience (born in early fifties) bought an 04 suburban new ,first battery 5-years second battery 5years third battery 3-years 3-years later another battery. And when a fully loaded suburban battery dies-it’s really dead! Quality of Batteries appears to be going down like everything else. So if I have any signs of battery issues after 3- years I replace battery automatically,I like most people don’t have time to be stranded . I of course keep cables and a gooloo jump box in the back along with toolbox pull rope etc. since I have 2- daughters and 4-granddaughters! guess who gets the rescue calls? But I don’t mind. Love your channel, keep up the hard work 👍🏻
Battery must be an AGM type. Subaru doesn’t use starter for restart usually. Computer detects which cylinder is in position for power stroke and fires that spark plug to crank engine. If this fails, starter is used.
You need an efb or agm battery for this, it stated in the service manual there are different strategies for use of an original or not original The 2 relays are there to save the relay because of the huge amount of restarts the systems does. And in the early systems there was a function to reset the amount of restarts and there was even a necessity to replace the relay after x amount of restarts (5000 or more not sure about the right amount) suggested by the manufacter
I own a 2016 Sienna without the start stop crap. That vehicle has a nasty habit of tearing through batteries far faster than any other vehicle I’ve owned. Generally by the beginning of the 3rd year, the battery is showing signs of failure. I’m running an AGM this time around so we’ll see if that one lasts longer. Seems to be related to the way the charging system is designed. The battery never seems to reach full charge under normal use. The alternator works just fine, but it seems to cut the alternator output in an attempt to save fuel at the expense of the battery life. Costco battery warranty helps greatly here though
Had a company Cherokee the start stop broke. I had to take to the dealer for another reason and told them don’t fix the start stop. The service guy laughed and told me people hate that feature.
Ivan, you're a genius in figuring out what is wrong with cars, and fixing them. Can you *please* just leave the editorial comments out of the videos though? The ongoing rants about what you don't like in this was was just too much.
The 2017 Highlander had a AGM battery. The NAPA replacement had a 2 year warranty and was a flooded battery. Was the Federated battery a flooded type as well? For best performance this truck needs an AGM battery. It doesn't happen often but at called this one at the 2:00 mark.
All the opinions and conclusions before any of the facts… so much for the data driven diagnosis… why did he take the job in the first place if he hates it so much?
At time stamp 1:49 is that the wrong battery? The blue napa battery ($200) is not usually for start/stop cars? The black napa battery ($300) are for start/stop cars? OEM battery from dealer ($400) is usually the best bet?
After purchasing my 2023 Bronco Sport and reading in the forums about the original Ford batteries showing failures after 2 - 3 years, I decided to buy a device that plugs into the OBDII connector and disables the Stop/Start function completely. I just got tired of hitting the disable button every time I went to use the vehicle.
14 years on the original battery on our Mini with stop start. It still worked for normal purposes but the stop start didn’t. Its still on the original starter at 17 years
Just changed the battery on the sister in law’s 17’ Highlander. She said it didn’t always sound normal when starting. Sounded normal to me but, did a battery test and it showed the battery at 9 volts and the crank test came back okay. Never seen a car that cranked normal with a battery at 9 volts. Even after installing a new battery, the cranking didn’t seem any different.
Do the Toyotas not have the lawnmower battery for the start/stop system? Maybe that battery has a problem? I have only had to deal with the GM version.
I had a feeling this was battery from the start, but I always appreciate a good Ivan diagnosis. That said, absent a battery check, those semi-random codes also did it for me. I would have shipped it out pretty quickly after seeing that and testing the battery directly. (I also would have been reasonably lucky that one time, not skilled in that diag or lack thereof.) When Ivan said "I've never seen that one before" or something similar referencing the codes, I figured low voltage had probably caused some of those codes more than a mechanical origin. That said, start stop or not, I've lost a lot of faith in batteries over the last few years. Even my last standard ICE, non Stop Start car saw a premature FLA battery death while I had it. "They just don't make them like they used to." Start stop doesn't help, and even AGM doesn't save the day in this application. And ask anyone how they feel about Chrysler's aux battery strategy from hell. Madness.
As someone who plays with batteries as a hobby, start-stop isn't begging for a better battery like an EFB or AGM. It's begging for a super capacitor bank.
That would make a lot of sense. There are those "batteryless" jump starters out there that would do this job PERFECTLY and would last a long time. But honestly, I do not believe that these start stop systems are cycling the battery much since the engines start so quickly. In any case, perhaps one of those $800 lithium batteries should be the way to go.
NO ! Capacitors store very little energy for their size, that would't help at all, you simply need a higher than usual capacity battery, typically an AGM type.
@@CedroCron I am not sure of that multiple times claim, but they will crank it for a few seconds with significant authority. And the start stop only requires like a half second.
Oh yeah. And some of these start stop systems require the battery to be registered when replaced. I know BMW and Ford are like that. So sometimes the battery will not charge if it is not registered because the current sensor doesn't know it has a new battery.
@jetboy770371 Something like that. Essentially the charging works almost like long term fuel trims. It is monitoring the battery and keeping track of current acceptance over time. So when you replace the battery it doesn't know this. And will continue to charge the battery as if it was the old one. Registering the battery essentially tells the computer that there's a new battery. And that it needs to start anew the charging map.
Hey Ivan, fellow technician here in Yerington, NV. Just thought I'd throw some information out there as I have been burned by these stop/start systems a few times in the past. Some of them use an auxiliary lawnmower battery for the stop/start system, sometimes located in the trunk or under a fuse box or somewhere not fun to access. A few times, I replaced the main battery only, not knowing that the auxiliary battery was dead. The problem is, the auxiliary battery almost never gets changed out by the owner at autozone or napa, so when you put a new battery in, it temporarily fixes the startability issue while the small battery turns into a parasite, drawing from the main battery. When you first connect them, it draws a lot to level the voltages, then turns into a small parasitic drain, usually close to .25-.5 amps. So the customer returns a month later after their car sat for a week or two for a low battery concern, with stop/start unavailable. I always perform a health test on the small battery every time now. I don't know if this will help anyone, but just thought I'd share. P.S. thank you for your UA-cam Channel, it has definitely played a part in where I'm at today in my career. I watch your channel pretty much everyday for my lunch break. Thanks.
Exactly.....GREAT GREAT GREAT OBSERVATION and HEADS UP.....Did not the display show a Bat 1 or a Bat 2 in this video.....Can not recally, BUT you are ablsolutely correct.....Another sniper, hidden in the trunk, or where-ever....Nothing but a dangerous situation, because the owner may now think all is Fine, only to have a NO START in some dangerous hell-hole like downtown Philly at 2am. Yo, Ivan....u better re-investigate the number of batteries in this car.....really
Saw the fail as soon as you focused on the battery. They need a specific type of battery to last. I would also clean the heck out of the battery voltage sensor on the negative terminal. Now, you can go into Special Functions in the Engine ECU, and switch the battery type, and it will change the logic on the start/stop system to help with the incorrect battery.
The ECM can disable the start stop system if the battery is low on charge if the battery is going bad if your AC or defrost is on max , if you hood is ajare if the engine isn't at operating temperature and lots of other reasons
Our 18 Highlander had the same thing happen coincidentally also in PA. My wife was traveling alone and had AAA jump it. It did require a special battery $$ that Selinsgrove Toyota installed. I was shocked that the car will warn me about the possibility of ice on the road but no battery warning. Also with no battery it would not allow you to put it into neutral and push it. I told her that the auto start was nonsense, lucky it didn't give up when she was sitting in traffic on I80. Funny how it went from her car to our car when it was misbehaving.
The battery has a current shunt to measure battery current probably to estimate battery state of charge. If so, I think when you install a new battery you have to do an algorithm relearn. Not always needed but a good thing to check if you see a current shunt.
Most cars have a switch on the bonnet catch which disables the auto stop/start when the engine is worked on. You can usually disable by disconnecting that switch. Stop/start another great idea from the EU.
@@TimDyb It didn’t on my Highlander, it did show a warning light on the dash though. I hated looking at the light so I just bought the chip and deleted the auto stop feature.
Thats why I hit the little button on my dash on the Subaru to turn off auto stop start. I ran it when it was new and after 30000 miles I saved a whopping .3 gallons of gasoline wow.
Somewhat surprised you do not own a simple battery load tester ($20-40) Harbor Freight or others! ALL starting/charging systems problems regardless of make/model/car/truck/heavy equipment/riding mower/etc begin with a load test to unsure the battery is good. If not, charge it, retest, pass/fail.
Start/Stop system requires a EFB or AGM battery. Majority of cars with start/stop systems when they fail & don't restart the battery is at fault from my experience. Some cars at a stop will shut down & all the warning lights will come on. Let off the brake and the car starts & all the warning lights extinguish. The start/stop is supposed to be disabled when the battery is low but a lot of times it doesn't disable. I don't like the start/stop systems. Extra wear & tear on the battery & starter. Some cars that don't have a disable switch you can put the shifter into L6 or the highest gear & it disables the start/stop & the transmission will shift normally. Sometimes when the battery does this & they can't afford a battery at the time you can clear the codes & have them disable the start/stop & I've seen batteries recover & never have a problem after that & the customers are happy.
You should use an AGM battery for a stop-start system. Our 2019 Subaru had a recurrent error a few times per year. I installed a new Napa AGM battery and all is well for almost a year now.
I have heard that you can disable it by disconnecting the sensor that detects if the hood/bonnet is open. And you can turn off the statt/stop notifications that appear on the screen.
Hey Ivan, like a lot of other commenters, the Napa legend battery is not a EFP battery. That's probably why it failed in 3 years. It's normal for batteries out here in Vegas to not last more than 3 years so to me that's normal LOL. The dashboard will read battery is charging until the next time the vehicle is started up after being shut down. Once the vehicle does the initial start with a battery voltage higher than the spec during cranking found in the repair manual the system will begin auto stop start operation. Let your customer know there may be a setting found in the instrument cluster, on the far right hand side under the settings cog it will be under vehicle settings. The owner should be able to override the system completely without having to press the button each time the vehicle is operated. You can change the default behavior. You can also do this on your scan tool by clicking the customize tab on the top left hand corner when you're on the system topology page and the launch scanner will then search the car for features that can be customized and that is one of them amongst many others. The camshaft position codes are pretty normal when you have a failing battery. At the 1 minute Mark in your video I instantly knew it was a battery problem. We actually had a customer who had a similar scenario happen to her, her battery had a shorted cell. The issue was the vehicle stopped charging the battery while cruising on the highway and the battery could not sustain the current and the vehicle cut out while driving. She had no power assisted brakes or steering and was not familiar with operating a vehicle like that. She was really concerned, normally I would say it's completely fine for the charging system to cycle on and off while cruising at a steady speed to save fuel, that lady just had a rare type of battery failure that allowed the vehicle to completely lose power. Now on the dealership side of things the auto stop start systems have been really problem free, anytime a customer has a problem it's just throwing a new battery and they're good to go for another 3 years. (Vegas normal) Awesome video and good catch! Sucks that you spent some time getting there but you're educating the masses and I love it.
Many thanks for the insight, Sean! You're right, we're seeing MANY more weird battery-related failures than ever before due to these start-stop and "smart" charging systems! 😬
Good batteries used to last almost 10 years... Now it's down to 3 years... What a colossal waste of resources and harm to the environment 😢
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics had a customer come in I worked at AutoZone when I was 18 and his duralast battery was 12 years old and he was just replacing it. I'm sure melting down the lead and recycling it every 3 years is better for the environment, not to mention disposal of the sulfuric acid component. Oh and silver and calcium metal recycling as well. I'm sure it's much better for the environment. Working at the dealer I am glad to tell customers they just need a new battery, and it'll fix all their problems. I can only imagine the anxiety people have about their repair cost. A failing battery will cause the ABS and VSC and traction lights to come on, The electric parking brake will malfunction and stay locked on sometimes because the battery voltage drop on crank causes the ABS module to freak out. You can't design a vehicle around the battery always being in excellent condition. They degrade! Some unlucky customers have to replace their radio in their car because the eprom gets screwed up from power cycling. Freaking sucks man!
@@moo3993 Which battery brand do you recommend the most on newer vehicles?
@@nonexistence7986 All of it
@@nonexistence7986 Like any other part OEM only, stay away from anything after market, especially with electrical items.
I have a Toyota Highlander. The first thing i did was to buy a doodad on Ebay that you plug into the fusebox and to the Auto Start Stop Switch, and it Permanently Shuts off the Auto Start Stop . It's great!
If it is a START/STOP system the car needs a EFB battery. A regular lead acid is going to get hammered by the drain and charging spikes!
EGR
@@tepetelaplanbuckles246???? EGR
I looked these up. Never heard of an EFB battery. Interesting.
in fact, the centuries-old lead acid cell is the most rugged and forgiving and will absorb high voltage better than most. It's discharge/recharge and power density attributes make it undesirable for high power drain applications. But it's definitely not going to be "hammered".
AGM battery, never heard of EFB. (Just looked it up, enhanced flooded battery).
But yes, a regular flooded lead acid battery will get smoked by start/stop. When the engine is off the car will pull over 30A from the battery and over time that wears it out. A regular battery is only intended for starting an engine, not delivering significant power and then recharging.
EFB or AGM battery , needs to be start stop specific, and many cars also need to be programmed to the new battery, otherwise the charge curve will be based on an old depleted battery.
Another fine point.......People here, typing, really know plenty!!!!
One minute into this and I would have been installing a new correct type battery.
Why not start your diagnosis with load testing the battery and using the correct battery. This was a very frustrating video to watch.
Exactly, always start with the power source when troubleshooting. Never assume a battery is good based on age. I did this on our vehicles error code and it ended up being a bad battery. Car is supposed to be an AGM type and the dealer installed a standard 12 month "flooded cell" type. failed in less than one year. The new Napa AGM is working fine for over a year now.
@@55azguy Hey, at least it gave Ivan an excuse to rant about how these emissions systems are all garbage.
@@55azguybecause it has the wrong battery to begin with
Haters will always have negative thoughts!🥲@@55azguy
As soon as I heard the battery had been changed, I thought wrong battery. Without a start/stop specific battery, the battery Ivan installed will have a short life too.
Uh-Oh. Ivan....."Ivan, help....we be in Philly, now, it's 2am.....Quick....Bring something else, besides a new battery.....Help....Help....we be surrounded....Help!!!"
@@RoyCousins what is a "start stop specific" battery? Never seen one in an auto parts store and the catalogs don't list it... Sounds like a SCAM 😂
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Not a scam. Car and battery manufacturers specify either an EFB or AGM battery to cope with the high demands of stop start. They also opine that using a conventional lead acid battery will lead to a deterioration in the battery and breakdown.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics OEM battery by VIN application.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'd go one better, and if possible, just disable auto stop-start. What a stupid feature. People are commenting about AGM/stop-start specific batteries, I get it, but starting an engine isn't very deep-cycle of an action. Still. Dumb stupid pointless 'feature'.
Yes, stop-start does need a heavy duty battery, usually an AGM type.
AGM battery is needed. Some vehicles have a separate battery for the start/stop system.
Right, best batteries for these systems Optima Yellow or my favorite Exide Dual AGM, at some cars you need to tell your battery management system: Hey, you got a new battery, learn the parameters
2010 Highlander Hybrid - when I replaced my battery with a regular Lead-Acid battery it lasted maybe 18 months, returned it to Costco, got a new one, same thing. Grabbed an AGM battery and it has been 3 years with no issues.
AGM battery is needed for these vehicles.
or pray a lot and keep your receipt for the wrong battery!!
@@SeanHopkins Costco should have refused your returned battery, you scammed them based off your own stupidity.
@@johnt.848 This was the recomeded battery from the3 Costco site.... pretty harsh words from someone...
My wife's 2020 RAV4, with the blasted, detestable stop/start, started throwing "Low Voltage to Power Steering" messages on the display. Immediately tested the battery and it was no good, at 68% SOH. Replaced it with a new AGM battery, and problem solved. Do NOT use a conventional lead acid battery - be sure it is rated for stop-start use!
Before too long, you will be cursing the electric power steering too. They just keep getting more idiotic in what they put on vehicles today. There is NOTHING wrong with hydraulic power steering. In fact, it is so much simpler and better that it isn't on the same chart.
@@JamesAgansI would love to agree with you, but I've had 3 electric power steering vehicles since 2010 and they have been impressively smooth and trouble free. None of them have lane keep assist technology, which adds a ton of complexity.
@@JamesAgans My 2017 Mazda CX-5 has electric 'assist' steering. Bought it used in 2020 and it had a "PANASONIC" battery with all Japanese writing on it (Vehicle was built in Japan). I assume the Panasonic battery was OEM. The battery was a standard lead-acid battery and I had to replace it in 2022.
Thanks good to know. Should be a sticker on the battery as a reminder
The batteries made in Japan are gonna last 5-10 years, if you correctly take care of them......was it the kind into which distilled water could be carefulling added??? These are the Best!!
It also needs to say stop start written on the battery itself it must be an AGM or EFB battery
and im not sure about toyotas but on volkswagens and bmws a new battery is supposed to be coded in...
Another vote for a AGM battery in a stop/start vehicle.
Way to many years ago ovens and hobs had gas pilot lights. The UK government decided this was wasteful and commissioned the company I worked for to design a retro-fit kit for many different cooker models. The kit had to use a Piezoelectric igniter they had selected. The igniter body was made from Bakelite. The process for making a Bakelite part involves heat which at that time was normally gas. The whole project died a death when we pointed out that more gas was used firing the part than a pilot light would consume in the life of a cooker.
Geez, sounds like a safety hazard too... Without a pilot light there is an increased chance someone will leave a burner on and unlit.
Creating a larger problem to solve a small problem....
I'm surprised they actually listened
Sounds alot like EV's nowadays Junk 8-10 Years Who wants to recycle Lithium batteries when these places have a habbit of Blowing up.
This is the kind of life-cycle analysis that either isn't being done or, if it is, is not shared with the public.
The public is not aware that you have to drive an EV 80,000 miles before you even break even on your carbon footprint.
And all these complicated systems actually result in more pollution and expense when they break and require technical attention.
@GarthGoldberg I wouldn't even want to know how Diesel fuel and other energy it takes just to mine enough Lithium for one $60,000 Tesla, It has to be Crazy
AGM battery is what is required for any vehicle with auto start stop. Because they are deep cycle and can handle the extra load placed on the battery. But they cost a lot more then a acid flooded battery that's why people cheap out when replacing them . Also check to make sure you don't need to reset the ECM so it can recognize it has a fresh battery or it will over charge this new battery
Back in the early 2000's. my neighbor & wife were gone on vacation for a week and left their 17 y/o daughter at home. The daughter called me and said she was stranded in the family car. She said the car wouldn't start after she went "shopping" with a friend. I packed up my go-bag of tools & meters and drove to where she was. When I got in the car and turned the ignition key, the automatic seat belt (shoulder belt) moved into position around me. When I tried to start the car, the automatic seat belt retracted. Battery voltage read nearly 13 volts but when I tried cranking, it dropped to 6-7 volts. Luckily there was an auto parts store across the street so I replaced the battery. The car started right up, no problem, and she had no trouble afterwards. Later, when the neighbor returned, I checked the battery & alternator output & belt. All was good.
Yes car batteries go bad such that they don't have enough energy to crank. But what is the point of your story?
If it has a trailer light hookup, plug a trailer test light in, it will disable the stop/start garbage by thinking you're towing a trailer and will not shut the engine off
Never tried that but it makes sense
That’s very interesting. My wife has a 2018 and we (as in me) always just hit the no thanks button. I’ll have to consider this. I’m assuming it has no effect on transmission functions? 🤔
Doing this works. But changes the drivability of the vehicle you may not like.
That would also (probably) disable the rear parking sensors.
I bought a Toyota without start stop and very happy I did after watching this one. Enjoyed watching you figure out the puzzle once again! Thank you.
Another great case study, Ivan. I have a 2018 Ford Focus RS with the annoying start/stop feature. It has a huge AGM battery in it. It's possible that the NAPA battery was the incorrect battery for the car. Others have also suggested the AGM battery. They're probably on to something. Keep up the great work.
The Focus RS comes with an EFB battery not an AGM.
Surely the Stop/start unavailable is a symptom not the cause. This has to be battery/charging system related and probably caused by an incorrect battery type fitted, should it not be an AGM type? Is the battery even coded properly into the charging system?
We had this happen in our 2017 Highlander. In the middle of I-35. Rush hour traffic actually saved us as everyone was already stopped. Got a tow to the nearest Autozone and bought a new battery.
The battery was marginal. Replacing the battery solved the problem. The start/stop is hard on the battery. Have to use an expensive AGM battery per Toyota.
Weak batteries cause strange codes. Weak batteries also kill alternators. I also wish you could disable the auto start stop with a scan tool.
After finishing the video: Please make sure you’re using the AGM battery on these vehicles. They hold up better, but still need replacing after 4-5 years.
Efb.. you only using AGM if it's in the boot not under hood
It's not just weak batteries. It's batteries with a low state of charge, which includes weak batteries. Dead batteries and weak batteries take a lot of current. Most alternators aren't made to deliver high current for long periods, and they overheat. If you have to charge a dead battery, use a battery charger if you have one not jumpers to another vehicle.
@@major__kongI certainly agree, but it’s not as though “weak battery” is a technical term. A low SOC, shorted cells, and other faults all make a battery weak and put extra strain on the charging system.
It’s spanked! And the battery on the vehicle likely wasn’t the right type. Cheers.
The neighbor across the road called me a few weeks ago asking if I could scan his 2018 Ford Edge as it wouldn’t turn over and has had the money light on. He knows I have the “TopDon Phoenix Plus” Scan tool so I walked over and scanned the codes. I pulled multiple codes which I believed to be caused by low battery voltage. I told him, hold on let me go grab my “TopDon BT100” battery analyzer and we’ll test your battery. Hooked the analyzer up and it said battery bad. I sent him to NAPA for a replacement and told him I would replace it for him. When he returned with the new battery he mentioned NAPA asked if he had Auto Start Stop as it takes a different battery than a normal battery. I honestly never knew there were special batteries for this. They’re definitely much more expensive when he told me the price 😳 $$$
Yeah you need a more durable battery. Usually an expensive AGM battery. They can discharge more (the load on the battery when the engine is off can easily be 30A) and they recharge faster.
Using a traditional starting battery in a car with start/stop puts a lot of wear on it.... Those batteries do not like being run down and recharged repeatedly.
Damned nice neighbor you have. Don't move. Lolol
@@JamesAgans Hahahaha I’m the nice neighbor with the scan tool.. My neighbor should be the one not wanting to move. lololol After some bad experiences with stealerships, I bought the tools to work on my own vehicles. 👍🏼
@@volvo09 Hey Volvo,
Good to know ! Yeah I never knew there were special batteries for this Start stop option. I also had to do a new battery reset so the computer knows the battery has been replaced. 👍🏼
Toyota are a reliable vehicle...unfortunately some people lack the knowledge to maintain them correctly.
That's what I'm saying. Or cheap out on parts.
Right off on this one.. the NAPA battery. I have always stuck with the Toyota battery and they last 5 years almost to the day.
You must use a AGM battery only not a lead acid battery.
It seems like you went down a rabbit hole on this one. Many vehicles equipped with a start / stop system use an auxiliary battery, or use a specialized battery. The aftermarket battery, probably wasn’t correct. If you want to disable the auto start / stop, you can unplug the hood switch that detects the hood is open/closed.
Wow!!!! Is this True.....Unplug the hood switch to fix the issue, (Long term fix, with correct batteries, etc, in place, to be sure.....) Thanks for posting this!!!!!
@ Depending on the vehicle, yes. On the minivan Ivan was working on, the computer has to verify the hood is closed for the auto stop/start to work. If it can’t detect the status of the hood, auto stop/start is disabled.
Owners manual says ‘Replace with Start/Stop battery’. Then some dork puts in a cheap of the shelf battery.
Kit available to bypass start stop. It allows you to push button once. Start stop disabled until you push button again to enable.
Which is how it should be from the factory. In most normal driving, start/stop is of no benefit at all, and just wears things out way faster than needed. It only has some benefit in the most crowded of cities, when fewer cars idling means better air quality. Using the feature all the time costs more money and resources.
I bought one for my Subaru Forester and it works like a charm. It's always off now. Easy to install too--just plugs in.
I was screaming here in my comfy sofa check the battery from the start :)
Ivan, you made the same mistake that was made previously and was in high probability the reason the battery didn't last.
Cars with start stop systems must have start stop batteries in them, that is how they come from the factory and there is a good reason why they are equipped with either EFB or AGM batteries.
this new one will not last long as well.
Deffo gonna be a future problem.👍
isnt there a second battery for the start -- stop
Even though he may know the core issue he goes through the diagnostic process on purpose or he wouldn’t have a UA-cam channel.
@@iangrassbyit depends on the vehicle. Some do. Most don't.
@@throttlewatch4614 He didn't go through any diagnosis. All I heard was an old man rant about things they don't like. The code stored was for low battery voltage and it had a non-OEM battery installed. All he had to do was load test the battery as soon as he saw the stored code and put an OEM battery in when confirmed it failed the load test. He also failed to test the charging system to confirm there isn't another underlying issue. High likelihood this vehicle leaves them stranded again for the same problem in another 2-3 years.
The wrong battery type is what killed the battery, as auto start/stop will absolutely hammer a regular lead-acid battery. And auto S/S isn't really bad in itself, but it's not designed for the large gasoline-powered automatics as driven in America, for Euro spec cars with tiny engines and manual gearboxes it works very well.
I drive a diesel with auto S/S and I only had to replace my battery once at 150.000 miles, but you need to keep in mind that you need a special EFB or AGM type battery which can handle larger discharge cycles.
Batteries aren't worth a shit anymore unless you spend 200 bucks
Batteries are shit, that's why you buy AAA and get the warranty. Replaced my battery for free after it failed in one year.
@@gam3kidAAA is crap too. They left me stranded on the road after they only called two tow companies (their special rated ones), the companies said no, and then they stopped. Never called me back - I had to call them back at 3 am and say where's the tow truck?
@@gam3kid Buddy had Subaru replace his battery with a "upgraded battery" at almost $500.00 with battery and required mounting bracket. 🇺🇸
As others have said the Stop/Start equipped cars should have a battery to suit, I believe some cars actually use a super capacitor to assist. I did drive a manual transmission car with Stop/Start for a few years, in traffic it had a talent for choosing bad times to stop, often for just one or two seconds since it did not know what was going on around the vehicle. Some cars can be software modified to disable the feature, though in theory you just need a timer circuit to simulate a button press a few seconds after starting the engine.
Wow! A super capacitor too??? Do they all have this, now? Something else to fail....
@@wallace3953 some cars have a second battery for Stop/Start too. I have some super-capacitors, amazing things but I have no idea how long term reliability is.
Looks like Toyota spec an EFB battery for this vehicle (AGM should also work, but not a standard battery). You may need to perform a reset or special function on one of the battery monitor/start stop modules too to reset the battery counters.
Only an efb battery will work. its enhanced flooded. not flooded
I have the exact same vehicle. $80 and 15 minutes you can buy a chip that deletes the start stop feature. Has worked perfect for 6 years.
I read on some models you unplug the hood open/closed sensor and it disables the start stop
I tried that, it did work. Unfortunately, it showed a warning light on the dash. I couldn’t stand looking at the light so I just purchased the chip.
@@jodymullens5741 Black tape is cheaper.
I’ll have to look into that again. I looked at some when my wife first got hers, but several wires had to be cut and spliced, which I prefer not to do on that vehicle. 👍
What is the chip used to disable start/stop?
I was leery about the start/stop feature so this episode had my interest. My wife's 2019 Subaru Forester with the start/stop feature came with an OEM lead acid battery. It's been 5 years and even though it still seems to be good, I replaced it last month, October 2024, with another lead acid battery. The guy at Costco says that's the correct replacement battery. Hmmm, maybe I should have found a EFB replacement. The Subaru owners manual does not specify.
I've got a 16 Cherokee, and it took out the battery with that stupid start stop in 3 years. I replaced it and haven't had a problem with the new battery. Of course, the first thing I do when I get in is disable the start stop. I think you are spot on when you say the only thing those are good for is what the government thinks is good. Keep up the great videos and thanks from Southern Idaho.
Thanks for the video Ivan.
Ivan there's a video by a Toyota technician, The Car Care Nut here on UA-cam entitled "How Does Start Stop Technology Work in Modern Cars? Everything You Need to Know". The section on "special battery" describes the battery issue this car has. It is a high draw starter and causes a large drop in voltage, it's why the battery takes so long to charge after a start. you are seeing 14v because that is the output of the alternator. If you unplug the alternator and start the engine you will see the voltage drop to less than 8v.
ua-cam.com/video/TTBN8Ic57Gg/v-deo.htmlsi=I0fVKNntTCCk214e Start Stop technology is ridiculously complicated; as described by the Car Care Nut, it's designed to mimic a hybrid. This is a must watch. BTW, when in Park or Neutral is also disabled.
The total electrical energy required to start a car doesn't depend on the type of starter lol
It may draw more amps, but for a shorter amount of time :)
Isn't the battery for start-stop an AGM?
Brilliant as always Ivan. I personally have had great success disabling the start/stop by shorting the bonnet switch. No code thrown but no more crappy stop/start
I made for a friend a tyny module for automatic deactivation of that system :) On his car there is a LED on the button and the logic is if there is a power and the led is not on for a minute, it close the contact via transistor, which is paralel to the button contact :) He is very happy sonce he have it.
Glad you posted. I was scrolling through to see if someone had done that.
Simple. Cheap. Effective.
@@sw7366 Yes it is very cheap and quite simple.. I made it with arduino nano, because in the beginning i was thinking to add more features and to use the lamp for the Oil on the dash for an input, but I found out that when the car is Off the power for the ambient light is also off, so I used that to power the arduino. I was thinking to use timer and the button as an input, for disabling the module with a long press, but he said that will never use that feature :) And in the end the module is easy do disable if he just disconnect the quite big connector ( I just had a big one :D) and he like that. The car is european, but I believe it is similar for all...
I have been with your channel a few years now. Electrical a d electronic issues always scared me a bit. Your videos add to my conviction that the simplicity wins almost every time.
We currently have two vehicles: a 2011 Ford Focus and a 2012 Ford Fusion 2.5L. I believe for almost all manufactures this period represents the pinnacle of simplistic technology. Sequential EFI, conventional automatic transmission, conventional power steering (except this Fusion) and normally aspirated 4 cylinder engines. If I have to replace a car I will go right back to that period.
My thought on introduction was "bad battery". It used to be that old batteries would fail to start after sitting overnight, but with today's batteries, they fail in strange ways. I agree with the other posters that this car likely takes a special battery since it doesn't seem to have a second battery for stop/start.
My wife commutes 40 miles. Last wed I told her you need to make sure you have a winter coat in the car if it breaks down you will have a coat. Thursday I was I stalling a thermostat and water pump in her cruze. I ended up taking the jeep to lunch. I stopped at DMV to get my license and of course no start. No coat either. It is also a napa legend from. 6\21 deader than door nail
A customer mine uses nothing but NAPA batteries and he has more problems with NAPA batteries. Most of the batteries fail prematurely. The battery still have voltage but when put under a load, will have a large voltage drop. I had installed a battery for him on a particular piece of equipment. He call me back a week or two later, having a problem with the same piece of equipment, and being that I had just installed a battery in it, the battery was one of the last things on my mind for a problem. Long story short I did a lot of troubleshooting and unobvious it ended up being the battery. It just goes to show you, troubleshooting wise, stick to your basics always check your power source immediately. If I had done that I’ve been out of there in 15 - 20 minutes.
OEM battery only.
Happy to hear Ivan's rant about the Start/Stop system. I had that on my Volvo V60 and got tired of it. Yes, you can turn it off but it will be on the next time you start the car. My solution was a ESP32 relay module, costing me $2.37. I programmed it so it would close and open the relay 60 seconds after the car was turned on. Wired the relay in parallel to the On/Off button so it would simulate me pressing it. Worked great !
Great solution! 😊👌
blaming the s/s system when the wrong battery was installed is a bit odd.... separate issue from whether the s/s system is dumb or not- it is IMHO
A common issue with modern vehicles is that they aren’t engineered for longevity. The attitude from manufacturers is let’s get the new vehicles through a warranty period with a disposable life of 5 years; the typical new car finance length. A win-win for trading up!
Sadly that is true. Also the reason they claim the rediculous extended oil change intervals and often claim transmission’s never need serviced. A lot of people find out the hard way that often doesn’t turn out well.
I noticed a difference between Ford and Toyota. Ford has a battery health monitor, your Toyota did not. Apparently, Ford’s battery monitor works with the starter starting current to track the battery health. My Ford Start/Stop quit working and I did not know why. I suspected the battery so I purchased a Harbor Freight battery tester. It said 52% for a 3-4 year old original Ford AGM battery. Some time later went to Sam’s and purchased a new battery. It took over a week for the computer to sync with the new battery and restart the Start/Stop system. At least with Ford I get some warning that the battery is wearing out before I am stranded.
My opinion is that new batteries do not last four years, why? Answer, they have a three year warranty.
Of course....only can be relied upon for 2 years.....
Tries to start car - Sorry Dave i cant help you with that.
HAL, start the fking car - Sorry Dave i can't do that. 😂
Thank you for not just replacing the battery right away, it gave us a chance to look at diagram and data pids.
The part I don't understand is not replacing with OEM battery by VIN application.
To many things to break on these new cars thanks for your work you can be certain I’ll be driving older cars for the rest of my life.
I appreciate how thorough you were in your diagnosis. I'm sure some people would just condemn the battery without looking at anything else, and in this case they would have been lucky if they did that. You took the time to try to understand this disastrous system, and looked at the data to find the problem. It did surprise me that you showed too much faith in the battery that was from Napa and was 4 yrs old.
I've seen batteries from many manufactures that failed early, and I don't trust any of them anymore. Even the Federated battery that you installed only offers a 3 yr warranty, but they also sell 2 yr and 1 yr batteries and the prices have gone up significantly over the past few years.
When I look up a battery for today's cars the chart ask if it has a start stop system because this system uses a different battery.
I also hate this start stop feature and turn it off every time I start my car. I think there may be some cars that you can disable this feature with a scan tool, but I looked for that option on 2 of my cars and couldn't find it. The other thing to keep in mind is the life expectancy of the starter is programmed into the ECM on some or all start stop cars and from what I understand. When it sees a certain number of starts I believe it triggers a "replace starter" message, or code or both and a scan tool is needed to reset it. I'm still learning about the system but it might even turn on the check engine light??
I'm pretty sure that car needs an AGM battery. If this is the fact, the alternator will cook the lead acid battery quickly, because the charging voltage for AGM is higher than for lead acid batteries.
Yea I wouldn’t even read codes, put a battery in it and go from there, here in Florida 2-3 years is the norm for a battery
If u get three years of use from a battery consider yourself lucky.
Agm will give 5 or 6 years
Glasmat battery required!
It's the wrong battery for the car.
I can't believe that wasn't the first place you went.
Ivan, you are an awesome diagnostic technician, and i have learned a great deal from watching this channel. I believe your disdain for the start/stop system skewed your diagnostic approach this time. In my area, the battery hardly lasts 3 years anymore, much less when it is a single battery being overused with a start/stop system. Also, if you had started there, you would have noticed the type of battery currently installed is incorrect for a start/stop equipped vehicle. Regardless, thanks for sharing.
You need to replace battery with one that is made for vehicles with start / stop function.Just topping up with distilled water and recharging battery fixed a friend's Mazda 3 with the stop / start message and the low battery warning
Three to five Years on batteries is normal battery life in my very long experience (born in early fifties) bought an 04 suburban new ,first battery 5-years second battery 5years third battery 3-years 3-years later another battery. And when a fully loaded suburban battery dies-it’s really dead! Quality of Batteries appears to be going down like everything else. So if I have any signs of battery issues after 3- years I replace battery automatically,I like most people don’t have time to be stranded . I of course keep cables and a gooloo jump box in the back along with toolbox pull rope etc. since I have 2- daughters and 4-granddaughters! guess who gets the rescue calls? But I don’t mind.
Love your channel, keep up the hard work 👍🏻
Battery must be an AGM type. Subaru doesn’t use starter for restart usually. Computer detects which cylinder is in position for power stroke and fires that spark plug to crank engine. If this fails, starter is used.
You need an efb or agm battery for this, it stated in the service manual there are different strategies for use of an original or not original
The 2 relays are there to save the relay because of the huge amount of restarts the systems does. And in the early systems there was a function to reset the amount of restarts and there was even a necessity to replace the relay after x amount of restarts (5000 or more not sure about the right amount) suggested by the manufacter
omg....sounds like spare relays are also needed.....
I own a 2016 Sienna without the start stop crap. That vehicle has a nasty habit of tearing through batteries far faster than any other vehicle I’ve owned. Generally by the beginning of the 3rd year, the battery is showing signs of failure. I’m running an AGM this time around so we’ll see if that one lasts longer.
Seems to be related to the way the charging system is designed. The battery never seems to reach full charge under normal use. The alternator works just fine, but it seems to cut the alternator output in an attempt to save fuel at the expense of the battery life. Costco battery warranty helps greatly here though
For what its worth you'd be better to run a Toyota battery.
I have always run them over the years and they always last 5 almost to the day.
Had a company Cherokee the start stop broke. I had to take to the dealer for another reason and told them don’t fix the start stop. The service guy laughed and told me people hate that feature.
That's why I got the Auto start stop eliminator on mine. It automatically turns off the auto stop /start. Great product plug and play too.
I will recommend the theory and operation of the Toyota stop start system at book club next week.😃
War and Peace would be a shorter read.
@@Andy_Hinners 😊
Common on all start/stop vehicles when battery is low. Hondas software update was to disable system if voltage below a raised threshold.
Ivan, you're a genius in figuring out what is wrong with cars, and fixing them. Can you *please* just leave the editorial comments out of the videos though? The ongoing rants about what you don't like in this was was just too much.
The 2017 Highlander had a AGM battery. The NAPA replacement had a 2 year warranty and was a flooded battery. Was the Federated battery a flooded type as well? For best performance this truck needs an AGM battery. It doesn't happen often but at called this one at the 2:00 mark.
Seems a little long winded for a bad battery.
All the opinions and conclusions before any of the facts… so much for the data driven diagnosis… why did he take the job in the first place if he hates it so much?
At time stamp 1:49 is that the wrong battery? The blue napa battery ($200) is not usually for start/stop cars? The black napa battery ($300) are for start/stop cars? OEM battery from dealer ($400) is usually the best bet?
OEM battery was the one that failed.
Walmart batteries are cheaper $$$ and reliable .my 2001 RAM diesel batteries are 5 years old 👍
@@Randythesavage777Walmart, AutoZone batteries are made by the same company Johnson control's
Never buy a vehicle battery unless it is AGM. The only exception is if one is selling the vehicle!
After purchasing my 2023 Bronco Sport and reading in the forums about the original Ford batteries showing failures after 2 - 3 years, I decided to buy a device that plugs into the OBDII connector and disables the Stop/Start function completely. I just got tired of hitting the disable button every time I went to use the vehicle.
You can turn the auto-start off permanently with the Thinktool in the customize page.. I did it on my bmw..
14 years on the original battery on our Mini with stop start. It still worked for normal purposes but the stop start didn’t.
Its still on the original starter at 17 years
Just changed the battery on the sister in law’s 17’ Highlander. She said it didn’t always sound normal when starting.
Sounded normal to me but, did a battery test and it showed the battery at 9 volts and the crank test came back okay. Never seen a car that cranked normal with a battery at 9 volts. Even after installing a new battery, the cranking didn’t seem any different.
Do the Toyotas not have the lawnmower battery for the start/stop system? Maybe that battery has a problem? I have only had to deal with the GM version.
That's what I thought as well
I had a feeling this was battery from the start, but I always appreciate a good Ivan diagnosis. That said, absent a battery check, those semi-random codes also did it for me. I would have shipped it out pretty quickly after seeing that and testing the battery directly. (I also would have been reasonably lucky that one time, not skilled in that diag or lack thereof.) When Ivan said "I've never seen that one before" or something similar referencing the codes, I figured low voltage had probably caused some of those codes more than a mechanical origin.
That said, start stop or not, I've lost a lot of faith in batteries over the last few years. Even my last standard ICE, non Stop Start car saw a premature FLA battery death while I had it. "They just don't make them like they used to." Start stop doesn't help, and even AGM doesn't save the day in this application. And ask anyone how they feel about Chrysler's aux battery strategy from hell. Madness.
scotty lied to me! lol thanks ivan
As someone who plays with batteries as a hobby, start-stop isn't begging for a better battery like an EFB or AGM. It's begging for a super capacitor bank.
That would make a lot of sense. There are those "batteryless" jump starters out there that would do this job PERFECTLY and would last a long time.
But honestly, I do not believe that these start stop systems are cycling the battery much since the engines start so quickly. In any case, perhaps one of those $800 lithium batteries should be the way to go.
THIS!!!! (Super Cap)
NO !
Capacitors store very little energy for their size, that would't help at all, you simply need a higher than usual capacity battery, typically an AGM type.
@@grahamstevenson1740 They actually have Super Caps that will start vehicles multiple times
@@CedroCron I am not sure of that multiple times claim, but they will crank it for a few seconds with significant authority. And the start stop only requires like a half second.
Oh yeah. And some of these start stop systems require the battery to be registered when replaced. I know BMW and Ford are like that. So sometimes the battery will not charge if it is not registered because the current sensor doesn't know it has a new battery.
By registered are you meaning the vehicle has to be programmed to accept the battery ?
@jetboy770371 Something like that. Essentially the charging works almost like long term fuel trims. It is monitoring the battery and keeping track of current acceptance over time. So when you replace the battery it doesn't know this. And will continue to charge the battery as if it was the old one. Registering the battery essentially tells the computer that there's a new battery. And that it needs to start anew the charging map.
@edwinlomonacofoolsend OK, the batteries' charging cycle history is missing, and registration let's the vehicle know
The plug to cancel the feature is at the hood latch techs unplug it to work on the car per Toyota
Is it just the hood latch switch or there is a separate switch for start and stop?
@@jyao5409It’s just the hood latch switch, it will cancel the S/S function, but hood open warning light on dash will always be on.
EFB battery needs to be installed
Spicy Ivan. I like it !
Hey Ivan, fellow technician here in Yerington, NV. Just thought I'd throw some information out there as I have been burned by these stop/start systems a few times in the past.
Some of them use an auxiliary lawnmower battery for the stop/start system, sometimes located in the trunk or under a fuse box or somewhere not fun to access. A few times, I replaced the main battery only, not knowing that the auxiliary battery was dead. The problem is, the auxiliary battery almost never gets changed out by the owner at autozone or napa, so when you put a new battery in, it temporarily fixes the startability issue while the small battery turns into a parasite, drawing from the main battery. When you first connect them, it draws a lot to level the voltages, then turns into a small parasitic drain, usually close to .25-.5 amps. So the customer returns a month later after their car sat for a week or two for a low battery concern, with stop/start unavailable.
I always perform a health test on the small battery every time now.
I don't know if this will help anyone, but just thought I'd share.
P.S. thank you for your UA-cam Channel, it has definitely played a part in where I'm at today in my career. I watch your channel pretty much everyday for my lunch break. Thanks.
Exactly.....GREAT GREAT GREAT OBSERVATION and HEADS UP.....Did not the display show a Bat 1 or a Bat 2 in this video.....Can not recally, BUT you are ablsolutely correct.....Another sniper, hidden in the trunk, or where-ever....Nothing but a dangerous situation, because the owner may now think all is Fine, only to have a NO START in some dangerous hell-hole like downtown Philly at 2am. Yo, Ivan....u better re-investigate the number of batteries in this car.....really
Some of the features need a reset function from the scanner when swappin not sure if u tried.
Saw the fail as soon as you focused on the battery. They need a specific type of battery to last. I would also clean the heck out of the battery voltage sensor on the negative terminal.
Now, you can go into Special Functions in the Engine ECU, and switch the battery type, and it will change the logic on the start/stop system to help with the incorrect battery.
I recently bought a Acura and it has auto stop/start. I’m going to install an auto stop/start delete. Cheap and easy to do!
The ECM can disable the start stop system if the battery is low on charge if the battery is going bad if your AC or defrost is on max , if you hood is ajare if the engine isn't at operating temperature and lots of other reasons
Our 18 Highlander had the same thing happen coincidentally also in PA. My wife was traveling alone and had AAA jump it. It did require a special battery $$ that Selinsgrove Toyota installed. I was shocked that the car will warn me about the possibility of ice on the road but no battery warning. Also with no battery it would not allow you to put it into neutral and push it. I told her that the auto start was nonsense, lucky it didn't give up when she was sitting in traffic on I80. Funny how it went from her car to our car when it was misbehaving.
Probably needs a battery, the correct type offcourse and maybe needs registering in the vehicle.
The battery has a current shunt to measure battery current probably to estimate battery state of charge. If so, I think when you install a new battery you have to do an algorithm relearn. Not always needed but a good thing to check if you see a current shunt.
Most cars have a switch on the bonnet catch which disables the auto stop/start when the engine is worked on. You can usually disable by disconnecting that switch.
Stop/start another great idea from the EU.
Only problem with that is you have to look at the warning light on the dash forever. I just bought the chip and deleted the start /stop feature.
Won't that prevent the car from starting?
@@TimDyb It didn’t on my Highlander, it did show a warning light on the dash though. I hated looking at the light so I just bought the chip and deleted the auto stop feature.
Doing this will disable the car alarm on some brands like mazda.
@@ffftube-le8np I have a MAZDA CX5, MAZDA 2 and MAZDA MX5 Special Edition and it works perfectly.
Does the Toyota need to be informed when new battery is installed and if it is not does that shorten battery lifespan?
Thats why I hit the little button on my dash on the Subaru to turn off auto stop start. I ran it when it was new and after 30000 miles I saved a whopping .3 gallons of gasoline wow.
Somewhat surprised you do not own a simple battery load tester ($20-40) Harbor Freight or others! ALL starting/charging systems problems regardless of make/model/car/truck/heavy equipment/riding mower/etc begin with a load test to unsure the battery is good. If not, charge it, retest, pass/fail.
You need a AGM battery.
yes the battery is monitored.... and when changing the battery you have to "program" the new battery to the ecm....
4:12 I heard a faint "Hello, tractor" from somewhere off in the distance.
Start/Stop system requires a EFB or AGM battery. Majority of cars with start/stop systems when they fail & don't restart the battery is at fault from my experience. Some cars at a stop will shut down & all the warning lights will come on. Let off the brake and the car starts & all the warning lights extinguish. The start/stop is supposed to be disabled when the battery is low but a lot of times it doesn't disable. I don't like the start/stop systems. Extra wear & tear on the battery & starter. Some cars that don't have a disable switch you can put the shifter into L6 or the highest gear & it disables the start/stop & the transmission will shift normally. Sometimes when the battery does this & they can't afford a battery at the time you can clear the codes & have them disable the start/stop & I've seen batteries recover & never have a problem after that & the customers are happy.
You should use an AGM battery for a stop-start system. Our 2019 Subaru had a recurrent error a few times per year. I installed a new Napa AGM battery and all is well for almost a year now.
I have heard that you can disable it by disconnecting the sensor that detects if the hood/bonnet is open.
And you can turn off the statt/stop notifications that appear on the screen.