Why you don't need 18% Gray Card
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- Опубліковано 17 січ 2018
- 18% grey cards were developed by Kodak in the era before cameras came with built-in exposure meters. They are used to measure the light reflected from the scene. Great for portrait photography in studio or outside.
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#18Greycard #Greycard #WhiteBalance
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All cameras and light meters are calibrated to the 18% Grey cards. They are the universal way to measure exposure in all cameras, film, motion picture, digital, video and your cell phone camera too.
18% Grey cards are used for setting your exposure in photography. You don't need an 18% grey card for white balance. Use a white balance tool for white balance.
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Original Video File: • Why you don't need 18%...
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You started with saying we don't need a gray card, but ended with basically saying we do need a gray card ;)
Haha. Sort of. We don't really need the old 18% Gray card anymore for digital cameras, thanks to the histogram, and it's handy for shooting artwork. But a WB gray card, as part of a colour managed workflow, is a must if colour is critical. Thanks for watching and leaving your comment.
What about if use 18%grey card with exposure compensation techniques? Will it produce accurate colour?
Kudos to you for informing people what is and what isn't. Good info!
Thank you Jason. Great to hear from people that really "get it." Cheers!
Thank you for this, there is unbelievable confusion and misinformation regarding what color to use for what. i experimented and found same as shown in your video, white gave correct WB and grey gave correct exposure.
Very interesting. I didn’t know this. Your videos are so educational. Thank You!
Great to hear this Art. Education is my goal. Thanks so much for watching.
Thank you so much, thats why my foto's colour are not right. I have use the grey card for white balance all the time.
It is so weird that so many people still think grey card is for white balance.
Marlene great video ;)
colour card checker .
You're a consummate communicator, Marlene, you communicate, clearly, concisely, and you make concepts easy to understand.
Thank you Jacob! I wasn't sure with this one. Some of these concepts I'm trying to teach, can be a bit hard to explain, and hard for beginners to understand. Hopefully others agree with you! Cheers, Marlene
Thank's for the video.
That's very professional to be dressed in this 18% grey when speaking of WB...
Thank you. Nice video and clearly explained this well.
Thanks so much for watching and letting me know, Robin.
One of the best explanation demonstrations on the tube Cheers
Great to hear this. Thank you! I have some doubters out there.
Thank you very much. You achieve the rare combination of distilling information into a watchable presentation.
How nice of you to say this. Thank you David. You made my day.
Excellent. Thank you
Great job!!!
I use my grey card with flash too, by using the histogram on the back to ensure the RGB values are all roughly in the centre.
That's a super smart way to use it. Thank you for sharing with the community here. Cheers!
Really nice presentation! Thanks.
Thank you so much for letting me know. Cheers!
I use my grey shoes tennis for street photography... Best grey card! Saucony brand...
Thank you for sharing this excellent video.
Thank you so much for watching! Cheers.
Thank you...👍
You've been a big help, thanks.
Thanks for letting me know, Anthony.
@@ImageMaven My pleasure Marlene
Love this!
Thank you for watching! :)
Marlene, what if you want to use the WB target to meter off of, instead of carrying an additional grey card. Where would it fall on a histogram? I shoot fully manual and usually I place the exposure meter right at zero when I am using a grey card to assess exposure , so I was wondering how many stops up would you place the colorchecker WB target? Thanks!
Don't do that because not all WB cards are the same brightness. Besides, why would you? It adds a lot of clunkiness to your workflow. Just use your in built camera meter and the histogram to determine exposure. That's what these modern conveniences are for! And if you shoot raw, you'll have a little more leeway to correct for exposure if need be. It would be easier to use an incident light meter than a WB card for exposure. (Not meaning to offend. Just my two cents worth.)
Lovely video marlene
Thank you so much for watching. Cheers!
Hi Marlene, great video. I bought the other day for my iPhone a Luxi for all and the Cine Meter II app. What is the best way to calibrate this settings? Thank very much.
I would start by reading the directions that come with the meter.
Hi
How to match with same reading with speedlight flash
At 1:10 Think you will find that it was Ansel Adams (the landscape photographer) who had to convinced Kodak to change from 12% grey (the value of reflected light from a average landscape) to 18% grey, which is what the eye will take to be mid grey on a print. As you intermediate it is different for digital however, where one just needs to ensure that the highlights aren't blown.
Thank you kindly for that history lesson. Cheers!
Hello from New York City! Which Lumix camera body is used in this video? it looks like a GX not a GM series. Thank you for your informative video.
Gosh that's an old one. Likely shot with my GH3. And looks like my GX8 was used in the demo.
Does it matter what order you do white balance and exposure? My thought is that you set up exposure first to set the light in the camera that you will be using and then set White balance to that exposure setting for ultimate accuracy?
If this is wrong, why?
Yes, setting exposure first would work best. If you’re over-exposed you won’t get a WB reading off a WB card. And the camera itself will give you a warning for that.
If I wanted to take a picture of the gray card, the values f = 5.6 and speed = 1/60 are adequate, but if I want to use the same values to take a picture of the painting, then the camera's exposure meter shows an over exposure of 2/3, as seen at the bottom of the camera screen at the minute 3:04 of this video.
Use the values that the 18% Grey card gives you. That's why you're using it. Any difference in brightness in your photo or artwork will throw off your exposure. If your painting is light, it will underexpose it. If you painting is dark, it will overexpose.
Interesting video. I'm now learning that a grey card is not used for setting white balance but for exposure. One question that I am not clear on. If I have a handheld light meter and taking a picture of the painting on your video, can I just hold the light meter in front of the painting and get the exposure settings off of that and not need to use the grey card? Will it accomplish the same thing in lieu of the grey card? Or would I still need to hold the handheld light meter in front of a grey card placed in front of the painting? I'm confused because I have seen teachers say that if you use a handheld light meter you get correct exposure settings by placing the meter in front of the subject (there is no mention of using a grey card).
greadore Yes you need the gray card if using reflective readings. Or you can estimate using your histogram. If your painting is very bright or dark it will give an inaccurate reading. Point your light meter or camera at a white wall. Take a photo. Your picture will turn grey unless you compensate for the white wall. Try it.
Thank you for your quick reply!
greadore, your teachers and Marlene are both correct. Most folks using a handheld meter just keep the dome on and take a meter reading at the subject with the dome pointed at the camera. It's quicker and essentially the same as removing the dome and taking a reflective reading off of a grey card. You can also point your camera at a grey card and take your meter reading that way. Again, essentially the same baring any variation in the meters. Lastly, check your histogram on a test shot to make sure your highlights and shadows are within range, or wherever you want them.
Having students put their 18% gray cards on a table and seeing they are different is merely a stunt. Ultraviolet leeches the color from pigments; the takeaway is not to _not_ use gray cards but to keep extras sealed away from the light, check the one you are using for signs of fading, discard it and use a new one. If the cards being different colors disqualifies them for white balance it also does so for exposure. An18% gray card has an RGB value of 46/46/46. An RGB digital camera with an18% gray card setting will calibrate to it. There are other ways to set white balance but this person seems to have an ax to grind.
have you heard of an expo disc? what are your thoughts on using this to set white balance?
I'm not a huge fan of them myself. Here's my take on the topic. ua-cam.com/video/XWVkC4D5Lcc/v-deo.html Also the ExpoDisc is for WB, not for exposure setting. The 18% Grey card is for exposure.
I didn't know WhiBal existed, I only knew about gray cards. Thanks for the lesson!
You bet! I highly recommend the X-Rite Color Checker Passport white balance cards as well. Thanks for watching!
I have watched a lot of your videos and they have helped me improve my photography skills significantly, but some of which I have not heard clearly because my first language is not English, I wish your videos will have English script, it will reach more people in this way. Thanks you so much.
Hi Chien Le. Thank you for watching my videos. You are right I need subtitles on all my videos. I have them on some of the newer videos but I need to do more. I'll try to do a couple more each week.
Okay, I added the captions to this video.
@@ImageMaven Tks love you
if using spot meter without filing the entire frame of grey card, i think it still ganna work.
thank you kind lady
You're welcome!
Depending on the gray card you can use it for white balance. A $2 gray card might not be as accurate as a $160 gray card. Even so, I would use a $2 gray card over a white piece of paper. Using a calibrated white card is probably your most accurate choice.
Very good explanatory...
Three hearts back!
Your meter looks like my Lunasix. I got mine about 1980 though.
Yes indeed. Lunasix F - Flash meter too!
So if you are outside on location you cant measure exposure with a grey card when using a strobe ? You need an incident light meter ??
Yes, Strobes require an incident light meter, but luckily most meters have that option.
I have a question ..... my grey card gives different readings in sun depending on its angle to the sun. What's the correct angle?
Yes of course it will change if the light falling on it changes. You want the light falling in it the same angle as your subject.
@@ImageMaven I was asking about te angle to the sun
So we don't usually need a gray card because the camera's meter usually gives us the right exposure. Gray card is to set exposure in certain tricky situations? White balance is something else.
Is that right? I've watched a few videos but it's not sinking in, maybe it's starting to though...
You got it, Loraine!
Camera meters expose at a default exposure value which is very often wrong for the scene. Don't assume the camera can give us an appropriate exposure, it's just a machine. We have to judge if the scene is lighter or darker than the default exposure & use exposure compensation in semi auto modes or adjust settings to move the indicator on the exposure meter in manual ( you don't always want the meter in the middle ) Cameras don't think, they calculate, we have to do the thinking.
Why should I not use the graycard for WB? At work as a portrait photographer at Schools we take the graycard with flash to get the WB
I explain that in the video.
@@ImageMaven ok, thank you 😊
It's not newbies or amateurs or hobbyist. A lot of professional photographers (some on youtube with over a hundred thousand subscribers) insist that a gray card is a good tool to calibrate white balance on digital cameras. Why can experienced photographers/educators agree on the same thing? Still confused.
The 18% Grey card is probably "good enough" for most people, amateurs and pros alike, because they can fine tune the colour or create their own colour preference and styles in post production. I don't lose sleep over it, that's for sure. And since we now have built in histograms in our cameras and software, we can check exposure settings, and that's the real reason we need the 18% grey card, especially when shooting film.
Marlene quick question, so I use white paper to get correct colour temperature and use grey card to get correct exposure, is that correct?
Never use white paper for white balance! Use a White Balance neutrally calibrated card like the X-Rite.
Here's a video about White Balance. ua-cam.com/video/NIStIIGYEZY/v-deo.html
@@ImageMaven thank you
@@ImageMaven oh by the way I forgot to ask. It's for a short film project. I wanted to ask for interior or exterior shots is it better to be slightly overexposed or underexposed? Meaning in post production which is better and easier to correct the exposure? I'm guessing it's more easier to darken the image if I am slightly overexposed. Also if I wanted to put a lut on image this will also darken the shot I've been told. I'm thinking of using the filmconvert nitro plug in in premier pro to give it the film look.
Better ask a video expert. I'm a photographer. Don't want to steer you wrong..
Thanks for the tips Marlena. I mostly shoot outdoors (nature/landscape/travel) so I want to capture accurate colors in the field first and then decide if I want to be creative in post.
The manuals of my Canon 50D & 6D states: "Instead of a white object, an 18% gray card can produce a more accurate white balance."
So Canon is stating that I should use the grey card instead of a white card to accurately set my white balance. Your thoughts?
For accuracy, I prefer to use a White Balance card like the X-Rite color checker. It's 100% neutral Grey.
The problem with white cards is that they are easier to overexpose and if it’s overexposed it won’t be true color. Gray cards are harder to overexpose and they’re just as Neutral in color as white.
does this applies to video? im gh5 user
Yes, and you can get larger X-Rite WB Grey cards specifically for video. I'd get one of those if you shoot a lot of video. I use the smaller one in my studio when I shoot for UA-cam though, but I really could use a large one though.
in 2:34 you said put the camera in manual mod , or you meant A mode ?
Manual Mode. It's the meter reading you want, and once you get it, you need to be in Manual Mode to set it as well.
its should be in p mode... not manual mode
Mode doesn't matter as long as you get the exposure reading. Think about it!
Just wanna ask. In manual mode you are in control of your exposure right, so how come it can give you your exposure at a particular scene? Confused here. Im a beginner btw. Hope you could help.
Marlene is right, except she illustrates it poorly by having the aperture and shutter speed already selected so that the exposure reading would be 0 or centred. The point is that you put the card there, half pressing the shutter or not (depending on your camera, mine automatically adjusts the metering all the time), then you read your exposure and adjust it by changing your shutter speed and or aperture so that it says 0 or 0.0 or +0.0. If she would actually show this process people wouldn't be confused about it but maybe they wouldn't think too much of the actual use of this technique, as she explains it in another comment.
Great video by the way but maybe try to illustrate a bit more for people who have a hard time getting it.
you look like my history teacher
I meter off my hand with a hand held meter.
But then I am old school. Also incident light attachment to double check.
I can't carry a grey card.
Wtf.
I was a newspaper photographer for many years and took meter readings off the palm of my hands many times. When you are in a hurry and the scene is fooling the cameras meter it can take forever to dig a grey card out from wherever you packed it. Run and gun. 1/250 @ f8 and be there! But it's so much nicer to meter your exposure well and set a good white balance so everything is correct in camera and you don't need to pull off a miracle in post processing.
Ha Ha - I do that all the time with the camera's meter for outdoor shots. Tweak it later in Lightroom or Photoshop.
What camera are you using?
I use several cameras. Are you referring to the one used to shoot the video? Or the one sitting in the corner of the video. Or the one I use now for most of my photography?
Marlene Hielema haha the one on the tripod that you were testing with. I've never seen it before that why I asked.
Ah, that's the Lumix GX8! Great camera. You can get it with the silver top or the all black. The silver version gives it a bit of a retro look. It's about 3 years old, so I don't think it's in production anymore.
Another 2 questions Marlene. I splashed out and bought the WhiBal pocket size card for white balance. Can you tell me what and how to use the black and white rectangular squares? Plus the square stripy black & white one? Additionally, do you still think a grey 18% card for exposure is not needed due to 'in camera ' settings?
The WhiBal website has tutorials on it. But the black and white squares are for setting black and white points when using curves. Not sure what you mean by the stripy one. It may have been the focus calibration? As far as 18% Grey card, you don't need one unless you're shooting film. Use the histogram to check your exposure instead. Hope that helps.
Marlene Hielema the stripy one is a small white box next to the black and white ones that have alternative curved black and white sections if that makes sense.
Since posting, I have now managed to find the pdf and video links (wasn’t easy I tell you). I will have a good read today as I don’t understand about the curves, but hopefully will soon :-).
Many thanks for such a quick response and helpful reply. You may like to know and be amused that it was cheaper to purchase the WhiBal card direct from America, than it was from here in England. If I had have bought in England, it would have been ordered from America anyway and would have cost nearly double.
I mostly use the plain WB grey card to capture an in camera custom white balance. I don’t worry about the rest. If you shoot raw files you can also place the WB card in one shot as a reference for custom WB on subsequent photos taken in the same light.
Here are a couple of additional videos I’ve made using the whibal: ua-cam.com/video/c9MKaj-rXvU/v-deo.html And this one is quite old but explains how to work with raw files. ua-cam.com/video/VEfwQwd20cc/v-deo.html
Marlene Thanks for the replies. Marlene Yes,I do it that way too, but wondered about the function of those rectangles and square. . I have emailed Michael as well to see what response I get; one can never get enough knowledge :-).
I have seen those videos before and Shawn is a darling. Both myself and eventually my daughter have worked with folk with ‘extra needs’ and the best thing is finding out how much they can develop with skills.
I am familiar with the techniques as I have done infrared photography which is quite tricky at times. This as you probably know, involves doing a ‘green grass’ custom white balance. Great fun and result when getting it right.
Hi. I'm color blind so I'm gonna need this gadgets....
Yes, a White Balance card and calibration system would be a great tool for you!
I expected this to be a dumb "you don't need a gray card if you can post-process" video, but it was actually a pretty smart video on not relying on the gray card in contexts it wasn't designed for.
Great to hear that you got it! So many don't.
@@ImageMaven well maybe they didn't get past the title))) I'm learning a lot about photography, thanks to generous people like you.
I have one I bought back in 1996! haha- it is all mussed up.
Misleading title. Shame
So, why don't I need it?
im working at a company that uses grey cards and ive noticed several problems.. first of which, everyones pictures look orange. i white card and then everything looks perfect. i did some additional tests and heres what i determined. if i set exposure or white balance according to a grey card where the grey spike is in the middle of the histogram, the picture will be over exposed. the whites will be blown out. this is a major photography no no. i did some mulling around in my brain and i think this is what happened and why people started doing this in the first place. in order to get the best quality picture in camera i will use a white card and set the spike of the white to just barely to the right of the far right fifth of the histogram. this will ensure that the highlights are not blown out and that there is definition in the highlights of the image, not a big mass of white. for people who cant do math, 5 sections means you take the number 100 and divide by 5 and you get 20% for each section. putting the spike to the right of the line in the section to the right means roughly 18%... this means that the WHITES need to be set to 18%.... not greys.. that means WHITE needs to be set to 18% grey... this does not mean shoot an 18% grey card and tell the camera its white.. that doesnt even remotely make sense.. its not how the camera is designed and youre just confusing the camera which is why you get orange tinted pictures because the camera doesnt know wtf youre doing.. and furthermore, everyone explains that grey cards are 18% and that means middle grey in the zone system.. obviously that makes no sense because middle grey is 50%... what we're really looking for is 82% white.. who in their right mind would say that middle grey is 82% white? they wouldnt.. so i think people are just confused.. you white card and set the white spike for 18% which is just barely to the right of the fourth line/ fifth section on the histogram.. i hope this clarifies things for everyone.. stop grey carding..
and if you really want to do it right then shoot a color picker in the photo..
Don't confuse 18% Grey cards with White Balance Cards. One is for Exposure. The other is for Colour.
Do I really need this gray card for shooting videos?
The White balance card will save you a lot of time colour grading. You can use your videos straight out of the camera without having to try to balance colour.
@@ImageMaven Thank you so much! My question is about 18% gray card, is it really a must have for shooting videos and if the WB card is enough?
WB is enough. The 18% Grey card is for exposure. It was developed before digital and was used to help with exposure metering. We have more tools for that now like the Histogram, and zebra stripes in video.
@@ImageMaven Thank you, my master!
Sorry but I NEED it for videography
No reason to be sorry! For exposure yes, you would need it. For WB, not so much. You can use a WB tool. I know many videographers who just use a white piece of paper. But, whatever works for your workflow is best.
Don't understand the title of this good video
It can be a bit of a boring topic, so I just tried something different to attract attention when people are scrolling through the thumbnails and video titles. Thanks for watching anyhow!
You succeeded !
nothing wrong with people learning photograhy . you dont need half the gear you use . but you buy it anyway . you dont need light meters. but most pro's use them even with their d850's
Kodak
好着急！想学新知识，却听不懂英语
Why is this video called "Why you don't need 18% grey card" then the whole video is instructing people using one.
Couple reasons. It can be a bit of a boring topic, so I just tried something different to attract attention when people are scrolling through the thumbnails and video titles. Plus, you actually don't need a grey card if you're using your built in exposure meter and your histogram. Thanks for watching anyhow!
I'm so confused now
So... you don't need a grey card if you already have one 🙄
I am sorry to say but this video has some missing knowledge and some wrong knowladge about the essentials of photography. Fine, it sounds existing and cool when it is explained in this way and it will be a highly rated video, but it won't help people to understand photography better. There is nothing wrong using the %18 gray card for white balance. It is just not the best you can get and using white is definitely not better than using a (not fake etc.) gray card. Because of this she "doesn't" clearly say that using gray card you will get wrong color correction. This color is an industrial standard and it is used as a reference color for color correction even by Adobe Lightroom for instance.. Yes it was first produced for metering reflected light since the light meters to meter reflected light is calibrated to this color. It should be told here that the built-in light meter of cameras think that any object reflecting light in front of the camera is %18 gray color. IF it is not, you will be offered wrong exposure values by your camera and you won't be getting correctly exposed pictures. It's really dangerous to say that 'today cameras meter the light and we don't need the gray card as much as we used to. You can survive without having a gray card but you MUST know what it is. I have been teaching Basics of Photography at the University for 17 years and I have to say that the relationship between white balance and gray card is not how it is explained here.. Please don't get me wrong, I am just a person stumbled upon this video. I haven't checked the other videos here yet but I will.
In my classroom of 20+ students who all had 18% Kodak Grey cards..... many of them were not matching in colour, visually as well as when measuring the rgb values with a densitometer, which is what led to the creation of this video. It's intended use when developed by Kodak was for measurement of reflected light exposure readings. Sure you can use whatever you want for WB, but I'll never use an 18% Grey card. I'd rather use something that's actually neutral in colour, and not made of paper like the Kodak 18% Grey cards are. Perhaps they've changed their production standards, but my money in on the X-Rite Color Checker series and the WhiBal cards for accurate custom WB measurements.
Hi Marlene Hielema Thank you for writing back.
Let's not limit the approach to %18 gray card wıth the product of Kodak. I am also using X-Rite color checker passport, but I don't agree with the idea of guiding people by saying "don't use %18 gray card for WB, it is to be used only for specific type of photography". No it is not. You can use it for any kind of photography. If you don't/can't use light meter, use %18 Gray Card. It doesn't have much to do with your camera's light sensitive surface to be film or digital. On the other hand, use RAW format if you want more control on colors, this more important than using gray card or something else. Many people won't be able to spend money on X-Rite, depending on your guidence here, they will probably prefer a "white surface" instead. How easy it is to find a "white card" dedicated to WB which we can trust out there? There are definitely way more than 20+ "neutral" whites in the field most of them are not exactly what we call white. Please read the comments to this video of yours and see how people are excited but confused. That's why I couldn't stop myself writing my previous comment. I belive that you want to help people, I respect your aim and with the same motivation I just wanted to support your evident aim with the responsibility of my almost 20 years of academic/29 years practical career of photography.
@ Thank you for clarifying. The title of the video and the tutorial are highly discordant.
You wouldn't believe the number of people who think a grey card is for white balance.
LOL. Yes I know! That's why I have to make videos like these. Thanks for chiming in! Spread the word: Grey cards are not for white balance! Have a great day Philippe!
I just don't get how people would even get that idea if they would stop for a second and think about it, why the grey card has a specific amount black on white... While white balance is between blue and yellow... :D
Like didn't anyone explain to these people that 18% grey was chosen as that is how the exposure metering in SLR bodies and light meters saw as middle?
That's why we have to make these videos. :) Thanks for chiming in. Cheers!
So weird i am beginning fotografihic and evrybody says to me included the store people yeah grey card is for perfect white balance OMG
I just bought grey card for white balance
Moni Poppaea Di Maria not wasted money, you can use it for exposure metering.
A light meter can measure completely different and more accurate than the reflective way of the Camera meter. You are way off
My light meter and my camera meter give exactly the same exposure reading on an 18% grey card, as long as I don’t have a filter on my camera. Doesn’t really matter though, as long as we’re close because we have the ability (and we tend to tweak) nearly every photo we take. Thanks for stopping by to add your opinion though.
Here's the problem with that. Different lens will give you slightly different results if only going by the incident meter. f5.6 on one lens can give you a slightly different exposure with another lens at f5.6 with the same settings. I own both the incident meter and gray card. I use the gray card to calibrate my incident meter to each lens. Once you get into cinematography it's a different game because the cinema lens are more accurate as they don't have f-stops, but rather T-stops, so each cinema lens you use will always have the exact same exposure using a light meter.
The Koak Grey Cart is not for calibrating.
Today cameras without a light meter are still made.
Number-one reason why I'm not subscribing, I'm stopping this video after 48 seconds, and I won't be back: the priority ("first off") is not content, but to thank subscribers and ask for more.
Ya I suck. But I don’t do that anymore.
Nope, you are wrong, modern camera sensors are designed to be adapted to certain light conditions, modes, example, almost all new dslr cameras has the ability to change the mode depending on color temperature to avoid a yellowish or blueish cast on picture, sensors are designed to meter and adjust it to neutral grey or white depends on ambient light. In the past there are no chance to adapt film to the light temperature, maybe with color filters on lenses.
Do not forget to tell how to use the white side of the grey cart.
I stopped watching this video after 7 seconds because her face was way too exposed and white. Maybe she did need the grey card after all.
Thanks for your very thoughtful feedback. I appreciate it more than you know.